There is a lot more to human experience than
exercising choice. If everyone in the room believed in free choice then
everyone would have his own standard of what freedom was. Just total
free choice seems to me to be the philosophy of anarchy. I mean it would
be morality according to the majority of choices according to what the
group chose. And being responsibility of the choices would be according
to what the morals of the majority would allow. Just because your choice
of occupation or of the good things that you want for your life is
determined by your ability to be able to choose those things, might not
be the same for everyone. So whos to say that your standard of choosing
is the rite way? Theres got to be a reason to choose because there are
other causes why you choose what you choose that are outside of your
ability that if you were not aware of these other causes then you would
be blind to how unable your will was in the freedom of choice. So you
got to look at these other causes outside of yourself in order to get a
real view of your abilities.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Stages Of Spiritual Growth
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on: July 13, 2007, 03:49:11 PM
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Its really not self will as opposed to
unselfishness as ending in maturity. But all of us are mixed with these
tendencies in all the stages because we are sinners and we rationalize
rationality by purely speaking in terms of the control of the mind as a
way to measure maturity. I believe that i go in and out of all
of these stages all the time. There is a straw man here,which is a
fatalism in rationalism, that what is defined by experience of
counseling is not entirely the truth.
You're right
about all of that. Once I realize how sinful I have been in my
disbelief, how much I ask of Him for more evidence, after all He's
done....the spiral continues.
Joker mentioned something about
just emptying myself of everything....something like that. Reasonated
with me. I imagine myself coming to Him covered with heavily
deordorized filth and accepting His acceptance of me, without changing a
thing.
And that changes me. Sometimes the change amazes me and I
get the evidence after all. For example, the other day, I took a guy,
who will probably sue me, to lunch and hung out with him. For a guy
(me) that is prone to anger and hostility, that astounds me. That's my
supernatural miracle for the month. I'm more impressed with that than
healing cancer.
Of course, ask me next week how I'm doing. If
I'm still good, it is also by God's grace. Someone said that it takes
more of a miracle of God to change someone's character than it does to
raise them from the dead. I think that's true. It is for me.
You
make a good point cc. Too many times we try to advance in our spiritual
lives without really understanding what God is trying to do. We either
presuppose on His will in our lives by going ahead in some kind of quick
step approach, or we ignore the problem, remaining in a condition of
hardness. I have found that both are from guilt and will just drag us
away from Gods goodness and grace. God has provided healing and
forgiveness in Christ work on our behalf. There should be full relief in
Him with a reliance on His working relationships out in His time in us.
If we are doing in and out of guilt which we often mix with His grace,
then we are not going to respond in knowing just how terribly unable we
are to advance and how absolutely we need His power to do the advancing.
This lessen is best learned first before we can advance.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Orthodoxy - Chesterton
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on: July 11, 2007, 07:55:22 PM
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Our view of reality is very limited because we
cannot comprehend the entire scope of the people and things that effect
our lives. We are finite and we live in an infinite universe. We cannot
even understand the mind of God at the level of His working in those
things that are unseen so that we are passing through this spiritual
dullness with the maximum amount of the effect of Gods presence as
bright as it could be not close to piercing the darkness of our present
surroundings and circumstances. It is like Christ walking on the earth,
the glory of God, yet veiled. And even when the apostles were given a
glimpse of that gloriousness in those tabernacles of heaven, yet that
did not match what is Gods view of things in this world. There
must be a place that we can go to taste and experience something above
what we see in this world, and what we feel as a result of being
encumbered by being trapped in this flesh and the corrupted
understanding from our limited view of the realness of eternal things
because of our inward dark experiences. We are more apt to draw
conclusions by what goes on inside of our souls, being so unaware of all
of the intricate details that transpire around us because we are
limited in our space in our so, so, small world. God offers us a
glimpse of eternity. Its not just what happens to our souls as a result
of salvation but it is what happens to our view of eternity outside of
our little world that is being changed. And yet all of these things that
we cannot possibly know being finite , are transpiring around us for
our good by a greater person with an eternal view. We only understand
that concept as we grow in our faith, because faith is seeing things
that are unseen. Our view of life in this finite space is dependent upon
seeing these things through Gods revealing them to us. And we know they
are as real as those things that we can touch, taste and feel. We
are so prone to be captivated by our inwardness and our finiteness that
we fail to rise above these dispositional prisons. And yet we are able
to rise up above these very limited view of reality by the amount of
assurance we are able to have in that revelation. What we sometimes do
is limit our ability to rise above our limited view because we either do
not understand the nature of this assurance, or we limit God by placing
limits on His divine assurance that He has never said He would limit to
us, or we are under a great burden or trial so that we are only left to
morn under the weight of this dark experience rising up only a small
amount but then being under the confusion once again. If we
learn to be assured by God speaking to us through His word, then what we
know about this assurance will become more and more personal to us so
that we will be convinced by our faith having an experiential aspect
that is beyond normal. Being convinced of things unseen is being under
the power of those unseen things. And being assured while under that
power brings about a supernatural ability to know those things having a
greater understanding of what will transpire around us in the future. We
will be less trusting of our own way and more resting in His power.
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Forums / Main Forum / Faith = Works?
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on: July 10, 2007, 11:26:23 AM
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Maxx.. no, I'm not "mad" at people who profess to hear the spirit.. I
just question how real what they think they are hearing is.. how much of
it is mind chatter to satisfy their own wants and needs.
My
divorce aside, I think there is a lot of questionable stuff that goes on
that is legitimized by saying "the spirit told me".
And then
what if, for example, the spirit is telling me to cover my head wear
dresses and exhort women to stay at home while it tells the woman in the
pew next to me to wear pants and go to college, and give me crap for
wearing dresses? I've actually seen that on more than one occaision (
not advocating either poosition, just giving them as polar opposites)
. . . . . .+++ Dear Sister G&RD, .
.Let me say first that my intention was not to dump an additional
burden upon you, but to invite any suggestions you might have in
shepherding those that you mentioned in a better direction. There are
some things some of us have learned that are helpful, but we don't have
all the answers, and certainly there will always be those who don't
think they need anybody else's shepherding. . .One of the solutions
we used to joke about was: "Everybody that receives the Baptism of THS
should be locked up with a Bible for 6 months before being permitted to
walk around loose." Not exactly feasible for obvious reasons; but there
are also those who maintain that the key should be thrown away. .
. ."I just question how real what they think they are hearing is.. how
much of it is mind chatter to satisfy their own wants and needs ... I
think there is a lot of questionable stuff that goes on that is
legitimized by saying "the spirit told me". . .Both of your
conclusions are correct, and I would like to insert that there are four
sources for the 'ideas/thoughts/words' that we receive: (1) Minions
of darkness -- and some the brethren/sistern would deny emphatically
that this could happen if the person really has the BHS. (2) Our
cultural influence -- particularly what church we are part of. (3) Our
own spirit = "mind chatter" etc. [cf. Jer.17:9-10]. (4) THS. . .This
is one of the major reasons I insist why we need brothers and sisters we
can trust to listen to THS to discern the source of our 'brilliant'
ideas/thoughts/words and who are not afraid to tell us when they discern
or even think we are wrong. In addition, we should log these
ideas/thoughts/words in red (choose you own color) so that we may
continually be reminded of what He said, or, conversely, that He may
come back and correct us if we have misunderstood. . .Today I had
lunch with some guys to whom I am in primary submission. One of them
disagreed with something THS taught me many years ago. In spite of the
fact that He has never corrected me, I am still obliged to take this
before the Lord and find out (A) Am I wrong? ( 
Is he wrong? © Is there something else He wants to teach both of us? I
also know he will go through the same process. Perhaps we won't get an
answer immediately, but we will both be open to His counsel when He
gives it. This submission to one another virtually eliminates the down
side of Alternatives (1) to (3). . .Secondly, Eric's testimony is
to the fact that His counsel is usually Good News to the Body or to
someone outside the Body that God wants to lovingly heal or set free.
Wouldn't it be pathetic if THS had some word or grace He wanted us to
minister and we refused because we were afraid of being an "idiot" or
because we had witnessed these "words" that some immature Christian had
foisted on us or on someone else? . .With these provisos, we my
proceed with boldness to the throne of grace to receive mercy and to
find grace in time of need both more for others but also for ourselves.
And simultaneously discover that we really trust THS to lead us into all
truth. Is this Good News or what? Love in Jesus. Just lovin' Jesus. Pompou Sass
LXr No,
I didnt think you were dumping an additional burden on me.. I just
don't see myself as qualified to minister much or suggest methods of
ministry, outside of what I have stated about dignity and permanancy in
housing and community situations for women and kids who have been
abandoned, and really the only dramatic departure from the traditional
shelter model I suggest for that is that Christians need to create
permanent communities for, if so they choose, lifetime residency for
this population. How that would be DONE I am totaly inadequate to
design. The submission model you depict intrigues me. Were you
in a church like this all your life? Or was this something you stumbled
into later? I don't know of many men who submit to another man in
anything unless it involves money and career, and then its not willing
in the slightest. I personally am very wary of submitting to anyone
now, becuase I've seen so much well, crap.
gloryandrosesdeaux- I enjoy your honesty. You have been struggling for quite some time now. Everything
that we are dealing with in life is from the hand of God. If it were
not then some of us would have something to boast about, being confident
in our ability to get something accomplished that others seem to
struggle with all of their lives. The voice of condemnation comes from
the religious and the self righteous and not from the children and the
bums and prisoners. God promises to be the under girder of the helpless,
lonely and the fatherless. It is not in our own ability that this is
accomplished. But it is strictly because He is gracious. If we could do a
righteous act in ourselves then we could be proud of our ability to be
better than everyone else. But God convinces us that it is He alone that
is good, He alone that deserves the praise, and that everything we
accomplish is done because of His grace. We are convinced of this not
because of our doing anything good, but because His Spirit by
regeneration reveals this principle of inability. When we look back at
our works we praise God for His teaching us, his enabling us and His
giving us the grace for doing good. We are like the people who run a
marathon. At the end of the race when we cross the line, awaiting us is a
Father who is always gracious, always forgiving, always encouraging and
always ready to give us strength for the next race. If our Father was
waiting for us always preaching condemnation, responsibility , and
repentance then we would slack in running the race. But believers who
live in Gods house are always strengthen in the race by what awaits them
at the finish line. Thats why we win all the time.
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Forums / Theology Forum / The "imago Dei"
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on: July 10, 2007, 09:22:29 AM
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\"God is a spirit. \" He is omnipresent,
omnipotent, omniscient- Just because we do not see the spiritual world
does not mean that they are not visible. There is another realm that
includes all of the angels and the heavenly host. The bible uses
anthropomorphism to describe these these beings. But if we were allowed
to see these heavenly armies we would think differently about how we
face the problems in this world and what we think of the importance of
trust in any given situation that we find our selves in. The ot is a
record of earthly judgments and God saving His people and bringing them
back to the temple worship. And if we were able to see the armies of
heaven as they did we would think differently about how Gods sovereign
actions are absolutely without real resistance.
Gods armies are
thousands of thousands of chariots. He alone stands head and shoulders
above any earthly rulers and kings. When God decides to act in behalf of
His people there is no one powerful enough to stand against His armies.
In fact for God it is as simple as saying a word of deliverance that
changes history. Just as He melts the snow by His word, so He delivers
His people by that word. One of the evidences of really believing in
Gods power and our inability is when we hope alone in His word. Whether
it is His revelation, or it is the practical outworking of His promises,
we know that when He speaks we will be saved, when He commands we will
have victory. The circumstances in our lives are only as stable as God
speaking a word. There is nothing in faith that gets in between God and
His spoken word that changes history.
How many times did God send
an earth quake and by His command for the earth to swallow up the
enemies of Israel? How many times did God swoop down with His heavenly
angels and destroy the enemies of Israel. Not only did Israel praise
Him, but the enemies of Israel gave Him glory. Because of Gods
deliverance, He set Himself up in the temple of Israel, bringing with
Him all of the captives in Israel and set up His supernatural rule in
the temple. He ruled the nations from that temple by His word of
prophecy, and His word of deliverance. The only response to His
deliverance was to praise and worship Him as He deserved.
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7263
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Forums / Theology Forum / The "imago Dei"
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on: July 09, 2007, 06:35:54 PM
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If God in His essence had a body then He could
be contained, Christ would be spread all over the universe. God would
be subject to being in one place while not being in another place. Gods
perfect idea of Himself is duplicated in His image. There is God and
then there is an idea of God. There is not distinction between His
essence and His acting. Just like our understanding of the truth is our
idea about ourselves. We to have our own image of ourselves. But Gods
image of Himself is so perfect and so pleasing, and above anything we
could image that He desires to have fellowship with His duplicated image
being one is essence ,The Father, Son , and Holy Spirit. He derives
pleasure from Himself being His own object . Yet God in His essence
has not a body like man. He has no parts. God is a spirit. He is
eternally present everywhere with that space being filled by all of Him
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Forums / Main Forum / Adjustment To The Government Of The Holy Spirit
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on: July 05, 2007, 05:14:34 PM
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We are here for His glory. It is the absolute
best for us. But we become attracted to the things that do not matter
because we like to feel at home in a disposition of complacency. But we
must go on in our faith. And yet true freedom comes as we realize that
every inch of the universe is occupied by the eternal Person. We do not
exist without Him being near and seeing our hearts. The very movement of
things around us are brought on by His active presence , so that
reality is not as we see it with our eyes but as we desire to see
through the glass dimly the glass of His revealing Himself to us. Once
we see Him we become realistic about who we are and what we are here
for. Tunnel vision is from a lack of freedom in God. When we
feel helpless because of fear or anxiety we are being defined by our
former way of thinking and feeling. When we were first awakened to
eternity, and our identity with Christ life and death we were under the
power of regeneration of the Spirit. We were full of new life and we had
a sense of the awe of God. That freshness was so freeing to us that we
were able to be rid of worry and anxiety so that we were assured in a
special way of Gods powerful working in us by subduing our flesh and
making us breath the new air of the Spirit. And as we become
aware of the reality of our shortness as we grow in grace it becomes a
source of contention that there is more in trusting than that first
simple trust. Yet He not only subdues our flesh so that we can
experience trust in assurance but He gives us His word so that we might
subdue our pride in thinking that we have become able to trust on our
own. It is breaking us down to simple trust again that we are brought to
see Him face to face. We then get a new glimpse of Him through the dim
glass, and we are assured of Him being all in all, present in all, and
bringing eternity to bear on our present struggle. When He appears once
more we are free to have confidence beyond our thinking of what He could
do through us when we were struggling and proud. We see Him and we
believe He can do much more that we could ever ask and think, and His
love is far greater than we thought in our fleshly views. ree thought has exhausted its own freedom. It is weary of its own
success. If any free thinker now hails philosophic freedom as the dawn,
he is only like the man in Mark Twain who came out wrapped in blankets
to see the sun rise and just in time to see it set.Integrating
philosophy is always dangerous. For years mental illness has been
looked at through integrating scientific theories into Theology.This
scientific paradigm is the new religion. If we were back in the biblical
times the Apostle would have written against it as he did against
gnosticism and all of the other pagan philosophies. We are like
the frog in the skillet who cannot recognize the heat. Intertwined into
the community of churchman ship and in the world of relationships is
this spirit of determinism. It can no longer be seen a help to theology
but it is the cause of the depression of mens exalted views of God and
the valuing of eternal things. We see that the bible does not
really have integration as its change power structure in relationships.
But the word describes a process of renewal, a transformation through
weaning. Because mans natural addiction to ableness is to integrate this
paradigms peremaders far and near are bondage and extend not farther
than fatalistic ends. The out growth of these communities create the
paradigms of determinism and fatalism. The bible calls us to add
to our faith by weaning. As a child is weaned from its mothers milk, so
we are weaned from the rudimentary structures of thinking of this
world. We graduate from milk to strong meat. The process is to be wean
slowly from our love for this world to a love for another world. We go
through weaning by a change in the very core of our being. We are being
changed with a new set of desires. Our view of God is foremost in the
weaning process. Even tho we have new life and we have the ability to
see spiritual things and spiritual truth, we still need to go through a
process of sanctification in order the grow into adulthood. Our baby
views of God are under much of the old life, we are not really convinced
consistently about His forgiveness ,love ,faithfulness, goodness,
holiness, and presence. In the renewal process we experience sensations
that are part of the process of our viewing God as God. These desires
cause us to be still. To be like a weaned child with its mother. The
process of stillness is a peace that comes as a result of our view of
the importance of Gods attributes in their effecting us and creating a
new image in our hearts. That is the image of Christ. When we
learn to wean the biblical way, integration will not be our natural
spiritual renewal mechanism. But we will learn to love God by viewing
Christ as His image through weaning away from all of the things that
blur that view. In grace weaning we learn more and more that our loves
are changing from the core of our desires. We will see new views of
ourselves, our relationships, and of the world and the things of this
world. When we learn to wean away from this world we are going to be
able to face trials as under the hand of Gods loving discipline rather
than fatalism. We will naturally learn to let go of the idols of our
hearts by weaning as we grow in our desires for Christ. As we learn to
wean we will learn to rest in Him. Our views of our minds are
changed. We learn to view Him as all important, and we learn to view
relationships, things in this world, struggles and all of the physical
problems as reasons to desire Him and His glory in our mournful
experience. In that mournful experience we are learning to view these
things differently so that we will not be anxious about our lives. As we
wean away from sin, the world and the Devil, we will understand the
proper views of these paradigms in our view with our spiritual eyes.
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Forums / Main Forum / Faith = Works?
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on: June 30, 2007, 02:30:20 PM
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We do not realize how personality and our
entire make up has a lot to do with what we think God is like. And if we
have a false perception of God then we are going to hear things that
are coming through our corrupted souls. So that what we hear is nothing
but what we have devised about God in our own minds. Its not really what
we think God is telling us nor is it what we think about God that is
necessarily true. He says , \"You thought i was all together like you.
\" In other words we are so corrupted that we can talk ourselves into a
truth of our world view of our particular minute little place in this
world with no reference to Gods big view of the events that transpire
around us. This is terribly complicated. We are like the man who saw the
streets of a particular city that they were wet with water and
concluded that there had be a rain the night before, only to learn later
that there was a man going down the streets with a truck steam cleaning
the streets. Our view of things is so tainted because we cannot observe
all of the intricacies of a particular situation, since we cannot view
what goes on in the soul or spirit of man. So we cannot even understand
what transpires in us most of the time. We trust way too much in the
physiological views of man which can be a form of control in the
incomplete falseness of a particular scientific observation. There
are controlling people and there are natural followers. The followers
are more susceptible to believe what other people tell them about
themselves than what is true. We always get the bad rap. Just like
Thomas in the bible. He is always blamed for doubting. But really , the
follower is more able to question everything without being over
revolutionary since his natural disposition is self doubt. And Thomas
was completely understanding of this paradigm. And then Jesus offers
Thomas the complete facts of faith since Thomas demanded to understand
the truth by questioning what others were saying. Thomas understood that
others mislead especially the controller or the self righteous. There
really is a message for followers that is less harsh than for the
controllers, because the controllers act as if they are helpless in
order to get the followers to do what they want. The self righteous
pharisees were laying heavy burdens on the poor, the oppressed and the
followers. This self righteous world view was trying to define the truth
for the rest of society to follow. With the controllers comes rules.
Extra things to follow. What the followers do not understand is that
because they are so susceptible to guilt, doubt, and pain,that they
think God is giving them the rules and then living in condemnation .And
it is a total world view we are talking about here. Which is very
difficult for followers to apply the doctrines to the whole of life. We
can be very revolutionary in our world views because what we struggle
with is being afraid of voicing balance in truth. And if there is
a need for those who are afraid to stand up for themselves it is in
this socialistic society. We live in a time where what works is
socialistic. If we step back and see that the powerless in society are
more than ever being controlled we can see it now. We are like the kid
in the sound of music who was courting the young girl only to find out
later that he joined the third Reich and blew the whistle on the Trapp
family. What a controller has a very hard time doing is seeing how the
other person feels, and is affected, putting themselves in the weakness
of the followers. A controlling person usually needs a wakeup call in
order for them to get in line, and they are more able to change on a
dime, without becoming emotionally involved in the hurt. It is easier
for them to deny themselves with a strong push. Thats what followers
need to understand about their view of themselves in standing up. There
are spiritual deli mas that accompany these mind games. It is spiritual
because God has made a personal promise to come to the help of the
followers in the supernatural paradigm.Our view of ourselves and the
truth can be a play on our past reactions to how we were treated. Some
of us really need to be angry at how we are treated. Some of us will
naturally be under the spell of a controller. The word of God, with all
of the understanding of who God is will teach us how we know what our
particular struggles of mind are. Reality is in our minds, our thoughts ,
and then we act according to our way of thinking. These interdependent
paradigms of mind are like a spell that comes over us so that we think
reality is something totally different than how God is and what He is
doing in us. Because this spell is a spiritual one predominately since
the only other alternative are trusting in the rules, we need a much
deeper transformation than socialization. The societies of the world
being controlled by Satan do not offer us the truth about ourselves.
Societies are paradigms where there are followers and controllers and
there is a direction that is anti spiritual, since we view the things of
this life imperfectly, the confidence is not in the direction of
society but in what God has revealed to us in His word. What He sees is
how the streets got wet since we could not see that part of reality.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Orthodoxy - Chesterton
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on: June 28, 2007, 03:13:41 PM
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That is where sometimes systematic theology
fails. We say that because A and B are true, then logically C must be
true also. And yet we don't stop and realize that C is not supported by
scripture and actually will turn our view of God into that of a monster.
Bill, I love ya man, but it seems to me that its kind of
like a vialed jab at us 5 pointers. I am hearing the same kind of
attacks toward Calvin on the radio, not Steve B a 5 pointer, but other 4
pointers. And really lets be honest that you do not believe in limited
atonement so that most of your complaining through the eyes of mystery
is about this point. I need to point out that unless there is an
acceptance of limited atonement then you will be tempted to accept the
post modern view of God. Since i do believe that anything less than the 5
points is a retreat from Pauline teaching. You do sound like post
modern but i think you are directing your complaint towards this
problem.
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Forums / Main Forum / Faith = Works?
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on: June 27, 2007, 07:06:25 PM
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Well, just off the top of my head, isn't what you describe basically monasticism?
monasticism-The
object of this is to achieve a life whose ideal is different from and
largely at variance with that pursued by the majority of mankind; and
the method adopted, no matter what its precise details may be, is always
self-abnegation or organized asceticism. Taken in this broad sense
monachism may be found in every religious system which has attained to a
high degree of ethical development, such as Brahmin, Buddhist, Jewish,
Christian, and Moslem religions, and even in the sytem of those modern
communistic societies, often anti-theological in theory, which
are a special feature of recent social development especially in
America. Hence it is claimed that a form of life which flourishes in
environments so diverse must be the expression of a principle inherent
in human nature and rooted therein no less deeply than the principle of
domesticity, though obviously limited to a far smaller portion of
mankind. Well said Willis!
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7296
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Forums / Theology Forum / 33% Or Less...
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on: June 27, 2007, 02:56:21 PM
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God does not have two wills. He can at the same time decree the
hardness of the heart of an individual and judge that individual for
their sin and still will that it would be for their good and His glory,
since He is patiently allowing them time to repent. If God was divided
then His will would cease to be exercised. If His disposition could
effect a change in His decreeing will then He has no decrees. God has a
disposition of love for all mankind but He has not decreed that all
mankind be saved.
First of all, he didn't say God has two wills,
he said there are two words for "will" in the original language, and
that they each mean very different things. Beyond that though, if
you really believe what you say, then how can you stand to worship a
god like that? (Oh yeah, you don't think you have a real choice...) I
mean, if I grab my child's hand, force him to touch a light socket, and
than tan his hide for it, aren't I responsible for both the sin and the
punishment, and wrong for doing both? Yet while you would rebuke a
human parent who did such a thing, you claim that your god is such a
parent, and at the same time that he deserves our worship and adoration. I'm just curious how you reconcile that in your own conscience...C
PC, I am really confused about what you believe. I mean if you really
believed in free will then you are responsible to either stand or fall
on you own choices. How does that work in you system of no eternal
consequences for your bad choices?
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7297
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Forums / Theology Forum / 33% Or Less...
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on: June 26, 2007, 03:35:38 PM
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Because God is Father He has the rite and authority to choose before
hand those who are His children or will be His children. He could have
chosen the whole human race, but He did not. He has His reasons for not
doing so of which we do not know. \"Who can resist His will?\" And if
you don t like His deciding then He has said. \"Who are you oh man to
talk back to God?\" If God did not know intimately who would be saved
then He has no knowledge of the future. And if God has no knowledge of
the future then in what way is He different from any of us? Who would
have confidence in a God who was not all knowing? If there was a
possibility that His will could be thwarted then how could you trust His
word? How can He back up His word unless He had the rite to exercise
His will according to His holy attributes?
. . . . . .+++ Dear Brother mbG, .
.There is a saying, \"You can always tell a Calvinist, but you can't
tell him much,\" so I may be shovelingsh it against the tide, but
perchance there are those who are not \"wise in their own conceits\" and
would question your infallible anthropologic. . .In the first
place, there are two words translated 'will' pertaining to both God and
Man: 'thelhma' which means desire or wish, and 'boulhma' which means
'decree' or 'decision.' So when God DECIDES something is going to be
thus and so, count on it being thus and so. On the other hand, if it is
His desire, kindly allow Him (and us) whatever latitude He allows. .
. .\"If God did not know intimately who would be saved then He has no
knowledge of the future. And if God has no knowledge of the future then
in what way is He different from any of us? Who would have confidence in
a God who was not all knowing? If there was a possibility that His will
could be thwarted then how could you trust His word?\" . .It may
be that You cannot trust His word if there was any possibility that
even His thelhma can be thwarted, but that is your problem, not mine. If
you spent more time studying the Holy Scriptures with your Calvinistic
binoculars turned around, you would discover there are hundreds of
passages in the Old and New Testaments which you would not have to
explain away. . .By the same token, you make a hasty
generalization when you state, \"If God did not know intimately who
would be saved then He has NO knowledge of the future.\" As Calvin
observed, \"God foreknows what He fore-ordains.\" The difference between
Calvin and normal rational persons is that he believed God
fore-ordained everything, and we don't. . . .\"And if God has no knowledge of the future then in what way is He different from any of us?\" . .That is an asinine question. . . .\"Who would have confidence in a God who was not all knowing?\" .
.That smacks of Arminianism, mbG. Have you converted? The answer is \"I
would\" and so would thousands of other Christians whose minds have not
been brainwashed by Greek philosophy imported into Christian theology. . . .\"How can He back up His word unless He had the rite to exercise His will according to His holy attributes?\" .
.I was not aware that He had to \"back up His word.\" What He says and
promises are quite sufficient, thank you; and dragging His 'attributes'
into the argument is like unto making Him \"swear by the altar.\" Dear Brother Retro, .
.If you are agreeing with mbG and his penchant for Reformed Theology,
you are putting your money on a dead horse. 400 year old theology merits
a place of honor on our history shelves, but ought not be awarded an
imprimatur of inerrancy. Love in Jesus. Just lovin' Jesus. Pompou Sass
God
does not have two wills. He can at the same time decree the hardness of
the heart of an individual and judge that individual for their sin and
still will that it would be for their good and His glory, since He is
patiently allowing them time to repent. If God was divided then His will
would cease to be exercised. If His disposition could effect a change
in His decreeing will then He has no decrees. God has a disposition of
love for all mankind but He has not decreed that all mankind be saved. God
does back up His promises because even tho these decrees in the future
are as already done, yet the gift of the promise has not been transfered
until the proper time. When He died on the cross He obtained salvation
for the elect, yet it was not transfered in time until each chosen
person was actually saved. Gods foreknowledge is not His call,
but it is His complete knowledge of every detail of His reasons for
choosing some and rejecting others. God has His reasons that are a
mystery to us, contained in His foreknowing the details in His choosing.
He chooses according to His foreknowledge.
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7299
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Forums / Main Forum / Snare Of Sin
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on: June 26, 2007, 12:23:41 PM
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Not one person is exempt from a time in their
regenerated lives in which they are loosing to sin. In fact if you go to
the confessions these are called times of discipline. The really hard
repentant types do not like to think that there are people in their
congregations that are loosing the sin battle, and that Gods grace is
exalted because of certain struggles with sinful habits. These dreamy
views of people repenting in order to over come a besetting sin and then
never returning to struggle again is just a false view of the whole
counsel of God. Because God uses our weakness to manifest His strength,
and to think that this process is all of purity and power is to putting
the saints in an impossible position of self effort and they will hide
and fail more and more with this kind of doctrinal approach. The
fact is that most of the saints are in need of being propped up, under
girded and supported by the stronger ones who have undergone this
intense struggle with temptation and sin and have had dealings with the
Spirit in the spirit of grace. If we are making a standard where our
churches get past a certain point of victory over all habits then we are
not really fully engaged in the battle for souls or have been in a
dream world in our own struggle with the world the flesh and the devil.
Those who are really concerned to fight will encounter the losing
battles. Its part of the process of sanctification. Look in the wcf.
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Forums / Main Forum / The Manipulated Mind
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on: June 25, 2007, 10:44:36 AM
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The Controlling paradigm starts in families as
sibling rivalry. Children are born with a personalities which are
consistent with how they react to certain situations. Theres the
controller, the follower, the reactor, and the quiet one. We learn to
fall back on what is most secure to us by our habitual reactions as we
become adults. Each person when confronted with adversity reacts
differently. We are sinners by birth and so the power of sin resides in
how we learn to react and how we are naturally bent according to our
weaknesses and strengths within our personalities. We all have besetting
sins.
What it comes down to is how much we mortify our flesh so
that we learn to trust in Christ instead of falling into a pattern of
behavior in the weakness that is present in us according to our
particular bent in facing adversity.
There is a proper way to
think, a biblical way, or a world view of thinking Gods thoughts after
Him. So that in order for us to gain ground over our besetting sins we
must start with the mind , the area of our corruption of thought. The
bible calls this process of change , transformation by the renewing of
the mind. Or exposing our minds to new life, the divine light of the
word, or the revelation of the truth of scripture as opposed to our
practical atheistic thoughts. Within each person there is a soil in the
mind to exaggerate self and to hate God. We naturally think that we are
good enough to think responsibly in ourselves. We think that we can
overcome bad behavior by our rational process alone. A person who has a
controlling personality is most susceptible to be over confident of his
being responsible by his behavior.
He fails to see that its not a
standard of action that he must master, but the standard goes deeper
into his very thoughts. And from his birth he devises ways to plot and
schemes so that he can be in control of his environment and the people
that he enter acts with. His pride is in his ability to behave in a
moral way so that he gets other people to follow his methods because he
is bent toward achieving social status in this manner. Its is the
natural way that he is programed to think and it is the weakness that he
falls back on as a result of that corrupted manner. He is like Scarlet
after going through much adversity , but instead of grasping onto the
dirt as Scarlet , he grasp titely onto his seven steps to achieve. Man
in his corrupted state goes head long into the state of sin, which is to
gain self gratification through religious effort. Man is born religious
,who s mind creates little gods. It is a process of corrupted
affections that cause each controller to be darkened in how he views
himself and how he views God. He loves his self righteousness more than
he loves Gods grace so that the end of his religiosity is taking glory
from God by being given the credit for his achievement and morals.
The
answer to one who is given to this corruption is to see that every
thought is under the scrutiny of Gods law, not just the responsible
behavior . That God has already weighed our thoughts and found them
wanting. And because we are naturally going to scheme our way to be self
righteous by wearing our responsible behavior on our sleeves as a model
for everyone to follow we are going to need to see that we are without
hope because we cannot meet the standard of good behavior because we
cannot stop our tendency to think of ourselves as in control of our view
of ourselves by being responsible because we are broken in our thinking
so that our responsible behavior is our achelles heel. We cant keep
from making a god out of our controlling our moral behavior.
What
controllers need to acknowledge is that God gives them all of the gifts
to be able. Even tho they are corrupted God by His grace , enables them
to do and act according to His revealed will. And even tho in their
thoughts they never measure up, yet God knows that they are dust and He
remembers that they are frail. Therefore they are not able to have self
confidence in order to be responsible, but they put all their confidence
in God, giving Him the glory for every achievement. When they begin to
feel a sense of self gratification because of their moral ability, then
they need to start transforming their minds to see that they are unable
in themselves to do good, praise God for not only the gifts but also
teaching them the process, enabling them to have the power to obey, and
giving them the rewards for something that God alone does through them.
In repeating this process, they will learn to glory in God and be less
confident in their control.
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