3295	Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Whoppers: Lie of trying harder	on: June 24, 2010, 12:09:59 PM
Quote from: THOR on June 24, 2010, 11:31:12 AM Quote "Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."  Philippians 3:8-11 K_k:  I think Stevie B. is saying something like "We haven't got a snowball's chance in a very hot place of trying hard enough to please God apart from Christ."  Our best shot is never quite good enough.  On the other hand, Jesus offers us His best shot at it when we are willing to accept it. I don't think God blows off anyone's good deeds per say. Paul is talking about achieving the resurrection and being found righteous only because of his faith in Christ. Paul is not talking about daily walk and good deeds toward others. These are things we do, and they do please God. However those things result in our personal righteousness, and should be a part of our normal living, but not what we depend on to enter into the resurrection of life. So Paul is not saying that our good deeds have no value to God and do not please Him. He is saying that our good deeds, which are good and necessary, can not be a means of justification for salvation. We must stop mixing up holy living with the one time event of salvation through faith in Christ as though they are incompatible and uncomplimentary to each other.  We must do both in our life...it's not either, or! Thor We need to be realistic here. Men do look on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. But we cannot achieve acceptance by our own works while we are living on this earth. Our Father does not value us for doing the good deed. But He values us because in working with His power He is glorified in us. So we see that we are tempted to create religious convictions as a universal set of cultural norms. I do not believe our trouble is that we think our works are not worthy of a smile from our Father. Our trouble is that we think that being strong because of our own abilities is having a sense of accomplishment in this world. But our accomplishments usually are to increase our own image of something that competes with the foundation of our gospel convictions. My point is that eternal life starts now. We stand before Christ rite now as if we were standing in the judgment. I do not think its just that all of our good deeds done in the flesh will not account for our being accepted in the courts of heaven. That we are only accepted because of Christ work and righteousness on our behalf. But our position in heaven has no relation to our religious position on this earth. Because man looks on the outward appearance and that is a mystery in much of the distinction that God judges. Nor can we know our own level of achievement. This is why God designs this life so that we cannot entire figure out the weight of good deeds.  This is the point of going from secret living in the designs of earthly religious societies and having these things opened up on the last day. I mean it would be impossible for us on this side who look through a glass dimly and through the eyes of faith to judge these things as God sees them. So that we must know God to be just in His judgments. And there are things that are hidden from us about ourselves that we will agree with when we stand before an absolutely holy God. There must be a real connection between our falling back on Christ righteousness and our looking at our past reality. We will know that Christ righteousness is our only hope. Its not big enough now for us to see this entirely.
Reply Quote Notify

3296  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: June 22, 2010, 04:51:26 PM "And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. - Revelation 19:14-16 Jesus is Lord [over all] and he will soon be invading with His armies. He is offering pardon in advance of His invasion and should you receive the pardon and ally yourself with Him now before He invades, when he comes you will be considered His ally and He will raise you to Kingship. The alternative is to be under the wrath of the king. It is not some kind of religious option. It an announcement that a new king is on the throne and he'll be invading. The gospel is not an invitation to an array of a buffet style choices, it is a command. Will you heed the command? Jesus is Lord, repent and believe. -William Wilder The greatest judgment which God Himself can, in this present life, inflict upon a man is, to leave him in the hand of his own boasted free-will. -AUGUSTUS TOPLADY Remove Reply Quote Notify

3297  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine Of Justification By Faith J. Owen on: June 22, 2010, 04:40:40 PM 7. Some affirm that the apostle excludes all works from our 285first justification, but not from the second; or, as some speak, the continuation of our justification. But we have before examined these distinctions, and found them groundless. Evident it is, therefore, that men put themselves into an uncertain, slippery station, where they know not what to fix upon, nor wherein to find any such appearance of truth as to give them countenance in denying the plain and frequently-repeated assertion of the apostle. Wherefore, in the confirmation of the present argument, I shall more particularly inquire into what it is that the apostle intends by the law and works whereof he treats. For as unto our justification, whatever they are, they are absolutely and universally opposed unto grace, faith, the righteousness of God, and the blood of Christ, as those which are altogether inconsistent with them. Neither can this be denied or questioned by any, seeing it is the plain design of the apostle to evince that inconsistency. 1. Wherefore, in general, it is evident that the apostle, by the law and the works thereof, intended what the Jews with whom he had to do did understand by the law, and their own whole obedience thereunto. I suppose this cannot be denied; for without a concession of it there is nothing proved against them, nor are they in any thing instructed by him. Suppose those terms equivocal, and to be taken in one sense by him, and by them in another, and nothing can be rightly concluded from what is spoken of them. Wherefore, the meaning of these terms, “the law,” and “works,” the apostle takes for granted as very well known, and agreed on between himself and those with whom he had to do. 2. The Jews by “the law” intended what the Scriptures of the Old Testament meant by that expression; for they are nowhere blamed for any false notion concerning the law, or that they esteemed any thing to be so but what was so indeed, and what was so called in the Scripture. Their present oral law was not yet hatched, though the Pharisees were brooding of it. 3. “The law” under the Old Testament does immediately refer unto the law given at mount Sinai, nor is there any distinct mention of it before. This is commonly called “the law” absolutely; but most frequently “the law of God,” “the law of the Lord;” and sometimes “the law of Moses,” because of his especial ministry in the giving of it: “Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him,” Mal iv. 4. And this the Jews intended by “the law.” Reply Quote Notify

3298  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: ETERNAL PREDESTINATION OF GOD John Calvin on: June 22, 2010, 02:54:28 PM Equally plain and manifest is that which we have in the eighth chapter of the apostle's Epistle to the Romans. For after he had said that all things work together for good (or are a help) to the faithful who love God; that men might not trace the source of their happiness to themselves, or suppose that by their first loving God they had, by thus first loving Him, merited such goodness at His hands; the apostle, by way of correcting every error of that kind, immediately adds, "Who are the called according to His purpose." Whereby we see that Paul is anxious to secure to God Himself all the originating glory, for he shews that it is He Who, by His calling, causes men to love Him, who of themselves could do nothing but hate Him. For if you thoroughly examine the whole human race, what inclination will you find in any one of them by nature to love God? Nay! Paul in this very same chapter declares that all the senses of the flesh, the whole "carnal mind, is enmity against God." Now, if all men are, by nature, enemies to God and His adversaries, it is quite evident that it is by His calling alone that some are separated from the rest, and caused to lay aside their hatred, and brought to love Him. Moreover, there can exist no doubt that the apostle here designs that effectual calling, by which God regenerates those whom He had before adopted unto Himself to be His sons. For the apostle does not simply say "who are the called" (for this is sometimes applicable to the reprobate whom God calls, or invites, promiscuously, with His own children, to repentance and faith), but he says, in all fulness of explanation, "Who are the called according to His purpose;" which purpose must, from its very nature and effect, be firm and ratifying. Now, to explain this text as applying to the purpose of man is (as Augustine argues) absurd in the extreme. Indeed, the context itself banishes every scruple, as if to render the intrusion of an interpreter wholly unnecessary. For the apostle immediately adds, "Whom He did predestinate (or definitely appoint), them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified." Here it is evident that the apostle is speaking of a certain number whom God destined for Himself as a peculiar property and treasure. For although God calls very many?by many means, and especially by the external ministry of men?yet He justifies, and at last glorifies, no one but him whom He had ordained unto eternal life. The calling of God, therefore, is a certain special calling, which so seals and ratifies His eternal election, as to manifest openly what was before hidden in God concerning each one so called. I know well what are the cavillings of many here. They say that when Paul affirms that those were predestinated whom God foreknew, he means that each one was chosen in respect of his future faith when he should believe. But I do not concede to these that which they falsely imagine, that we are to understand that God foresaw something in them which would move Him to confer upon them His favour and grace. For it is evident that the elect of God were foreknown when, and because, they were freely chosen. Hence, the same apostle elsewhere teaches that God knoweth them that are His, because, that is, He has them marked as it were, and holds them as numbered on His roll. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3299  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Election/Predestination on: June 22, 2010, 11:26:12 AM The glory of God is in the face of Jesus Christ. When we seek His face our eyes are opened. The glory of God transcends time and space. It is the reality behind the physical universe that works all things for Gods purposes. Whatever we confront in opposition... or great events ... when we look at the light of the glory of God we see God smiling in the working our of all things for His pleasure! Our only hope in this world is to find God and then rest in His goodness as we seek the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Because all powers and workings in this world in a direct way are experienced by us when the light of the glory of God shines in our face! Our general condition to the unseen reality in this world is to be lethargic and unbelieving. We lack the basic connection to these views of Gods designs because we experience very little of the power of the glory of Christ. We are subjected to the wills of hardened sinners who enact an environment of threats and discouragements that darken our view of all that is true of Gods goodness. Disasters and misunderstandings hold us down in this disposition discouragement and we fail to experience this powerful flow of Gods pleasure in which He is using these sins and disasters to protect His sheep and smile on them with His divine immuniations of power. We are not caught up in the great mystery of light coming into darkness and shining through the event to lighten up the whole world. This event is Gods greatness manifested to the world who is blind and ignorant of true glory!   But the light of Gods glory shines in the smallest places. It penetrates into the deepest recesses of a mans heart. It flows into a man like streams flowing to work their way to the cliff. God cannot be thwarted. His power flows in spite of mans blindness to understand and experience the effects of its stream. This light finds its free expression in Gods illumination of His word in which He wills things to happen by the word of His power. No man can agree about truth of an event unless God worked to make that man speak it for His glory. Even the most hardened criminal is used to speak the glory of God. If we were to find that His immunations of pleasure were an experience of the illuminated effects of His working word in experiencing the divine flow of power to us ward then our eyes would be open to the smile of God in the disasters and negative events perpetuated by mens wills. We would be caused to give all glory to God who works these things out for our own good... that good in which it is too strong for us to rejoice in anything else. Reply Quote Notify

3300	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism	on: June 22, 2010, 10:47:09 AM
Quote from: Kings_kid on June 21, 2010, 02:35:18 AM Can you answer the question? Kk.. there are powers in this age that we must resist. These powers are too strong for us because they come from places that are beyond our power to overcome. They come from high places. We must see that we are caught in between this great battle that is going on until Christ will have chained the devil ... his angels and demons into an eternal hell... along with the devils children. Because all the children who are not adopted by God have Satan as their father. That means they are used by satan to oppose God and His kingdom. We do not have a completed salvation by past victories. But we are being renewed in the inner man and we are promised that Satan and his children cannot destroy our souls. Even tho we face a formattable enemy and a realistic threat to our well being in this world we are more than conquerors through Christ. Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.  But we are cast down to be desperate in this world. Naturally we do not want to suffer at the hands of the enemy. This natural desire to live a long life and our new trust in Christ work together to sustain us in our most fiercest trials. Because we are being opposed as a general misunderstanding of our position that every person who is following the course of this world desires to succeed in this world. Because we know the real way to succeed in this world. I mean the way of hardship and multiple presuppositions about individual circumstances. We have a God who measures things in increments that we could never fathom.Our safety is in knowing the ways of God. We grow as we become aware of just how small things that God designs create big results. God knows the secrets of mens hearts and He turns them where ever He wills. Just like the flowing of a stream. This is how we grow in our discernment. Because we translate unseen things into a communication of reality. He says my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. Most of this communication to our minds is through meditation and illumination. The more we grow in our listening to God the more we are going to find greater opposition. Because God communicates what He is secretly doing in mens hearts and He gives us the message to give to them. Gods ways are always to regenerate and bring life to a man. God has made it so that we do not always understand what He is doing even tho we have heard to do it. This way of encouragement is directed to stir up the spiritual gift in men so that they will focus on the rite things. We are not the go between men and Christ. This is why we must find all of our security in God. We are not like the world who seeks after things that are fleeting. But we seek after wisdom. Wisdom is better than gold. Wisdom is greater than riches. Because wisdom plums into the inner man and frees a man to serve God in an open and free spirit of rejoicing. Wisdom causes a man to give up everything and lose this world to gain Christ. Because Christ is the only real means of living this quality of life. We are miserable without Christ. There is no in between in this reality. There is only punishment for the wicked or unfathomable joy and rejoicing for those who find all of their confidence in Christ.    3301  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why Hell should be eternal. on: June 22, 2010, 06:01:45 AM Kk... your trying to figure God out by your own standard of just consequences. God is much bigger than our ability to reason what should be done for the punishment of the wicked. My personal view about this is that i think people take the hatred they carry around and use it in other ways... not entirely orthodox in a proper application. I think anger is the hot ball we try to get rid of as quick as we can. But that struggle in itself is neurotic. There are some situations that we should find a hiding place from.There are some people we should run from. But these discerning qualities come out of a sense that we have gotten to the bottom of our own hatred. Some people view hatred as a sin. They havent come to terms with their own hatred. Because hatred arises from our hearts. Its part of our modal abilities in generating a desire to learn new knowledge and to struggle to apply it in a deeper way knowing that it would engulf us in a lethargy if we were not protected in some ways as a threat to our well being. It seems to me that you are reacting in trying to figure God out. There are some direct words of scripture that all of us recoil from in a natural distaste in our protecting ourselves. But we must let the word of God speak for itself. The bible makes distinctions between temporal punishment and eternal. Because we are given a natural longing to continue on in this life. There is a sting in death.  Death is not a natural process. All of us carry around a level of anxiety about this. On the one hand we could avoid the issue. Well ... we are all going on this road in life at different speeds. And this is the age of getting fixed or getting quick answers. These different 20 century anxieties are forced upon us. They can act as a kind of hate. (The carpet bagger who lies about his success of his fix.) Because they paint a picture that life is not as complicated or messy as it used to be. On the other hand we feel a kind of self confidence because there are better answers than we had in the past. We can get fixed. Then you have the new arousal of deep seated anger by the question ... What if? Because what if is always a question of doing. I think that given more options we can fall into a kind of angry reaction to this life in our self confidence. And all of these little irritations come from a pattern of thinking that grow into a world view and eventual produce a hateful society. Because we cannot think on our own without creating some kind of idol in which we trap our neighbor into our own slighted view of the world. My point is that given the amount of evil as a potential...this is an eternal problem that has eternal consequences. Because God who is the efficient good in all workings judges the details of the hateful destruction of man. Since we do not have that detailed focus... as God has it then we cannot even determine how hateful it is to God. I do not think we can be intellectually honest with ourselves about the potential we carry around about our own reactions to evil in this world unless we face God as He hates evil. Just exploring.     Reply Quote Notify 3302  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: June 20, 2010, 10:26:40 PM http://www.oneplace.com/player/living-grace/renewed-in-the-spirit-of-the-mind-part-two-112289.html Remove Reply Quote Notify 3303  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 3. - REGENERATION BY FAITH. OF REPENTANCE: CALVIN on: June 19, 2010, 03:09:49 PM 16. We can now understand what are the fruits of repentance—viz. offices of piety towards God, and love towards men, general holiness 522and purity of life. In short, the more a man studies to conform his life to the standard of the divine law, the surer signs he gives of his repentance. Accordingly, the Spirit, in exhorting us to repentance, brings before us at one time each separate precept of the law; at another the duties of the second table; although there are also passages in which, after condemning impurity in its fountain in the heart, he afterwards descends to external marks, by which repentance is proved to be sincere. A portraiture of this I will shortly set before the eye of the reader when I come to describe the Christian life (infra, chapter 6) I will not here collect the passages from the prophets in which they deride the frivolous observances of those who labour to appease God with ceremonies, and show that they are mere mockery; or those in which they show that outward integrity of conduct is not the chief part of repentance, seeing that God looks at the heart. Any one moderately versant in Scripture will understand by himself, without being reminded by others, that when he has to do with God, nothing is gained without beginning with the internal affections of the heart. There is a passage of Joel which will avail not a little for the understanding of others: “Rend your heart, and not your garments,” (Joel 2:13). Both are also briefly expressed by James in these words: “Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double-minded,” (James 4:. Here, indeed, the accessory is set down first; but the source and principle is afterwards pointed out—viz. that hidden defilements must be wiped away, and an altar erected to God in the very heart. There are, moreover, certain external exercises which we employ in private as remedies to humble us and tame our flesh, and in public, to testify our repentance. These have their origin in that revenge of which Paul speaks (2 Cor. 7:2), for when the mind is distressed, it naturally expresses itself in sackcloth, groans, and tears, shuns ornament and every kind of show, and abandons all delights. Then he who feels how great an evil the rebellion of the flesh is, tries every means of curbing it. Besides, he who considers aright how grievous a thing it is to have offended the justice of God, cannot rest until, in his humility, he have given glory to God. Such exercises are often mentioned by ancient writers when they speak of the fruits of repentance. But although they by no means place the power of repentance in them, yet my readers must pardon me for saying what I think—they certainly seem to insist on them more than is right. Any one who judiciously considers the matter will, I trust, agree with me that they have exceeded in two ways; first, by so strongly urging and extravagantly commending that corporal discipline, they indeed succeeded in making the people embrace it with greater zeal; but they in a manner obscured what they should have regarded as of much more serious moment. Secondly, the inflictions which they enjoined were considerably more rigorous than ecclesiastical mildness demands, as will be elsewhere shown. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3304  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christian Supernaturalism: Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield on: June 19, 2010, 03:02:38 PM The divine immanence is a fact to the Christian man. But to the Christian man this fact of the divine immanence is not the ultimate expression of his conception of God. Its recognition does not operate for him as a limitation of God in being or activities; it does not result in enclosing Him within His works and confining the possibilities of His action to the capacities of their laws. It is rather the expression of the Christian's sense of the comparative littleness of the universe - to every part and activity of which God is present because the whole universe is to Him as the mustard seed lying in the palm of a man. An immanent God, yes: but what is His immanence in even this immense universe to a God like ours? God in nature, yes: but what is God in nature to the inconceivable vastness of the God above nature? To the Christian conception, so far is the immanent God from exhausting the idea of God, that it touches but the skirt of His garment. It is only when we rise above the divine immanence to catch some faint glimpse of the God that transcends all the works of His hands - to the truly supernatural God - that we begin to know who and what the Christian God is. Let us say, then, with all the emphasis that we are capable of, that the Christian's God is before all else the transcendent God - a God so great that though He be truly the supporter of this whole universe as well as its maker, yet His activity as ground of existence and governor of all that moves, is as nothing to that greater activity which is His apart from and above what is to us the infinite universe but to Him an infinitesimal speck of being that cannot in any way control His life. The Christian's God is no doubt the God of nature and the God in nature: but before and above all this He is the God above nature - the Supernatural Fact. As Christian men we must see to it that we retain a worthy conception of God: and an exclusively immanent God is, after all, a very little and belittling notion to hold of Him the product of whose simple word all this universe is. II. The Christian man, again, must needs most frankly and heartily believe in the supernatural act. Belief in the supernatural act is, indeed, necessarily included in belief in the supernatural fact. If immanence is an inadequate formula for the being of God, it is equally inadequate as a formula for His activities. For where God is, there He must act: and if He exists above and beyond nature He must act also above and beyond nature. The supernatural God cannot but be conceived as a supernatural actor. He who called nature into being by a word cannot possibly be subject to the creature of His will in the mode of His activities. He to whom all nature is but a speck of derived and dependent being cannot be thought of as, in the reach of His operations, bound within the limits of the laws which operate within this granule and hold it together. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3305  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Whoppers: Lie of trying harder on: June 19, 2010, 02:37:58 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on June 19, 2010, 01:48:45 PM mbG:  "This is why the christian life is 70 percent questions and 10 percent answers." K_k:  It's been a long while since i majored in math, but i would say that, of all people, Believers in the Living and the Written Word have a very high percentage of answers.  You yourself gave some of the important ones that doubters don't have. mbG:  "It means that we start with God being God. God getting the glory... God inhabiting all the universe. God loving eternally. It is God coming down..." K_k:  What are some of the things Christians know?  We know where we came from, Whose we are, where we are going and Who with, what is the nature of true love, how to find peace and rest for our souls, how to get a brand new nature, how to find God, how to serve Him as we keep finding Him, how to have a successful marriage and friendships, who and what to avoid, what is expected of us, which are the most important rules to live by, Who is the only power we can turn to in order to live a righteous life, where will the final Heaven be and what will it look like, where will the "lost" be in the End and what will that look like, when will evil and sin and suffering and death and disease ever stop, are there really angels, what's the most reliable early history of the earth and mankind, was there a worldwide flood that explains much of geology and geography, who are God's people and how did they come to be called that, Who was Jesus really, how should we pray, is healing available, how to deal with emotions, what to be afraid of and how to let go of fear, will God actually come to live inside us right now, how much can we trust the Book of Books, and a few hundred thousand additional things found in Scripture (like Who/what is the Truth, the Way to God, the Life that never ends). Other than that, Believers don't have many answers that doubters don't also have.    I agree Kk... all of these points are just secondary to and are not necessarily understood by everyone in an equal way. Because wisdom comes directly from God through His word. We can know all the facts but not know how to apply them or be able to discern who is telling us the rite way to go. Because we believe that no man has the proper solution by the facts alone. Because we are not robots. We believe that because God is able and we are not that His ways are direct and sufficient. This is why there is no other solution to our problems than to gain knowledge from His word and to seek wisdom from Him.  We have been given the Spirit who teaches us along the way. All of these things come to us from God by His method of teaching us through the illumination of the Spirit who communicates with us so that we gain spiritual understanding. We go beyond the mere principles and we discern the spirit of a man. We know that God looks on the heart and man looks at the outward appearance. So that a proper application in all of this is focused on the attitude of a man not necessarily his accomplishments.  God is all glorious. He reigns above the earth. His footstool is the earth. He opposes men who are proud and who do not think His thoughts. Those men oppose His sheep. So that we are in need of continuous teaching and defense or we would be swallowed up in their schemes. The reason i am saying this is because we live in a world that is upside down. So it is not just a matter of agreeing on some christian principles. This is a matter of who has control of what. Because we know that men use God to bring other men under their dominance. So we need to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.  God is mighty to save. He will lead us in the path of peace. He will keep us from the hands of evil men. He will provide our daily needs... he will not let us go hungry. Because God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. And since we belong to Christ who has been given authority over all things ... we inherit everything that Christ has been given. We are no longer slaves but we are brothers and rulers in the new heaven and earth. Because we look into these things that are glorious. We are seeking the face of Christ who shines in all of His glory as He lights up the whole earth. If the glory of God were seen by us we would be dissipated in a second. But God is gracious and even tho His glory is all around us we are saved from the brightness of that glory. And yet we get a glimpse of the brightness of His glory when we look on Christ.  This is the Spirits work in our hearts who warms us as we behold the glory of Christ. Here we are worshiping and then we are made to look up... we see the ceiling but there are heavenly host that we cannot see. Its as if we were in the Sistine chapel and we looked up and saw the paintings. But this is much brighter and more clear... clearer than anything we could imagine...more colorful than anything we could see. Yes this is the reality of Gods glory.  There is a sense in which God comes down and we are made aware of something. We muse and then we ponder . We then have a sense of something that is greater than we could ever imagine. God coming down and nothing else matters.    Reply Quote Notify 3306  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Whoppers: Lie of trying harder on: June 19, 2010, 01:02:30 PM I believe in giving all our effort. But that is not enough. God wants effort like His Son! Now some people like to talk about the third use of the law. It tells us what we should do. But that is not just the commands... its the decrees and also its grace pre determined to succeed. The bible says that our ways are not Gods ways...neither our thoughts like His thoughts. So the main focus is not on us. In other words we could try something that is impossible and it could be from a misunderstanding of the natural desire to live that God has instilled in us and a philosophy of determinism. That is if we do a thing we will get something in return. This is why the christian life is 70 percent questions and 10 percent answers.. and 100 percent our propensity to think wrong about who did what. Try adding that up... just to make a point about it being impossible to figure out. But its more than what we do or what God does. Its more than a principled cause. Its personal. It means that we start with God being God. God getting the glory... God inhabiting all the universe. God loving eternally. It is God coming down. Where can we go from His Spirit? If i go up to the heavens you are there... if i go down to the earth you are there. If i make my bed in the depths you are there. So God is everywhere we think He is not in our experience. Then we got to say...its 110 percent our forgetting. This is why the christian is a person who gets a new identity.. like getting a new name. He goes from one identity to a new identity in a millisecond. There is no process. Its all flowing one way. Salvation is like being in a stream... and all of a sudden the stream becomes violent and sweeps us into the air over the cliff so to speak. We cannot stop it from pushing us over. And that is the way our entire christian lives are. We have this well spring of ability and power coming in us. Some of it is a mystery... its not understandable to our checks and balances. Some of it is felt on a physical level. Some of it is determined by a sorrow that whose weight was too strong for us or a joy in which we could not control.  But we could do nothing without Him.    Reply Quote Notify 3307  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: June 19, 2010, 11:15:31 AM What is the correct understanding of the Father ...and His children s communications. There is very little in our understanding of this earthly relationship. Because we have an all knowing Father who pre determines our personal reception of reality. This is why our reflection of love does not come from this earth. Because this is a sojourn of time increments and misunderstanding through sin. That means that experiences change drastically from one moment to another. The only other alternative is to find all of our hope in God as Father who never changes. Unless we get this rite then our Fathers love is really the same as any relationship we have on this earth whether its our real fathers or a father figure. Because God is chiefly a lover through a Fatherly affection. So that God deals in all of life as extending His love and direction through father figures. The moral universe of God is run through these father connections. Look at the nt .... this is alluded to in the spread of the gospel. There is rejection of men and reception of our Father. We havent entirely understood father hood until we see this great gulf that exist between men who love sporadically ... and God as Father who is ordering all events for the good of His children.  The view of God as Father is beyond just the human activity of this world. Our Father counts the numbers of our hair... He views the smallest particles and He examines the spiritual forms in conflict with the spiritual forces of this universe. Because our Fathers love is not expressed through healing mainly but through direct intervention throughout our lives in the ongoing salvation of His elect! He comes not as the good master... but He is the Savior and the destroyer. He brings new life and He defends the helpless and widow.  This is why we must find our entire physiological health in these communications from our Father in heaven. Because He is the only one who can save. Our Father is as personal to us as we experience our own existence. Because He decrees each breath we take. In giving us life in this way then we are caused from the same fountain of grace to find our physical strength in His loving us with new strength. He strengthens us and makes us weak to protect us. He strengthens us for service and He weakens us to keep us from sin. Because He is forming us to be conformed to the image of Christ. This is our ongoing salvation experience. His priority is not to repay us for our sins or discipline us like a small child. But He proves His goodness by winning us with His love. All of His promises are to us and cannot be thwarted. He signed them in blood. We must determine to know nothing except Jesus Christ.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3308  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why Hell should be eternal. on: June 19, 2010, 10:34:43 AM The question is in any realistic look at life has to include things we do not understand. Because it is impossible for us to talk about reality in which we only include our personal relationship to these things that we experience as opposed to truth that we have read about or studied as defined as concepts that we do not understand as physical experiences. But there are truths that we are told about and we believe to be the basis of our experience. This is why all reality is God centered. Unless we reassess everything in this life through the prism of this truth then we are deluding ourselves as to our essential reasoning powers as to the quality of our own inward experience. Because we measure the reality of these different experiences whether they are sorrows ... joys... pains... or comforts to the extent we place value by an understanding of these eternal truths. I do not think we can entirely expel all of these terrible tendencies to  our depraved thinking and thus our quality of a holistic disposition but we can experience a kind of refuge in our God as a real place to face these paradigms of the eternal consequences.  That is why we are made body and soul because there is much mystery to finding a source of comfort in going on in our great salvation to make an effort to plum the depths and heights of Gods love. We are dealing with something we are going to experience in the future that is far to great for our understanding just as we are warned that the future holds something for many people that is worse than we could imagine. Because we are encouraged to go on in the soil in the depths and the heights of who God is!  So we begin to face eternity in our existence. This is our identity. We were chosen before the foundation of the world to live before God in all of the wonder of His love as His personal recipients of all of these things that are too wonderful for us to imagine. So that we were marked from birth as being His chosen ones to receive all of these things in an inheritance at a time and point in our lives. The rational understanding of our sorrows and joys of this life must be examined as we are reminded of the width of Gods love that spans beyond this earth from one end of the universe to the other. It is beyond time... it is in the will of God.   If we were to only accept that God is eternally good then we would in essence deny that we face sin or that we are totally corrupted. Who would find a real experience in that denial? But because God places value on the weakness and frailties of this life then He must distinguish between sin and our weakness ...or we would be forever confused. Because most of the frustration of our personal physiological profiling in this world is falsified through a lack of understanding of the reality of corruption. So that the reality of our relationships in our minds as to the joys and sorrows of this life are viewed though our understanding of this corruption that we carry around!  This is why we hardly ever achieve a level of reality in this life that brings us into this rest in God! Because we do not see reality as God does. There is a great gulf of mystery in God. But the danger is that we would deny that these things are worse than they appear to be in our own rational human conclusions. We must attempt to plum the depths and the heights of Gods holiness in order to save ourselves a lot of grief and mis understanding about our own physiological make up.   Reply Quote Notify 3309  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: The incredible shrinking economy on: June 18, 2010, 02:48:29 AM RUSH: Now, I have been promising all week -- well, since Tuesday -- to share with you a column Art Laffer wrote, published June 7th in the Wall Street Journal.  And I want to start this hour with the column because if there's one thing that you want to bone up on as the future is prepared to unfold before your very eyes it would be the information here in Art Laffer's piece.  The headline is: "Tax Hikes and the 2011 Economic Collapse -- Today's corporate profits reflect an income shift into 2010. These profits will tumble next year, preceded most likely by the stock market.  People can change the volume, the location and the composition of their income, and they can do so in response to changes in government policies. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the nine states without an income tax are growing far faster and attracting more people than are the nine states with the highest income tax rates. People and businesses change the location of income based on incentives. "Likewise, who is gobsmacked when they are told that the two wealthiest Americans -- Bill Gates and Warren Buffett -- hold the bulk of their wealth in the nontaxed form of unrealized capital gains?" Let me repeat this. "Who is gobsmacked when they are told that the two wealthiest Americans -- Bill Gates and Warren Buffett -- hold the bulk of their wealth in the nontaxed form of unrealized capital gains?  The composition of wealth also responds to incentives. And it's also simple enough for most people to understand that if the government taxes people who work and pays people not to work, fewer people will work. Incentives matter."  Let me intercede here and simply use myself as an example.  I pulled the plug and left New York in 1997.  I moved out of there because I discovered that there's no state income tax in Florida.  Have you ever wondered why so many athletes claim Florida as their residence, when they may live and work all over the country plying their trade?  It's because there's no income tax here, there's no income tax in Florida.  People say, "Yeah, but they really nail you on the property tax."  Well, they do, the property tax is higher here, but I've run the numbers and the no income tax combined with the property tax doesn't even get close to what I was paying in income tax, state and city and unincorporated business tax, in New York.  I left New York in 1997 and I have been audited every year since I left.  I have to prove where I am 14 different ways every day of each year.  And I still get audited, and they still accuse me of lying to them about where I am on every day.  I have not done this program in New York in a year and a half.  Mr. Laffer is exactly right.  And, folks, in this case, should I tell 'em what my tax rate per day is when I work in -- I don't think I should do that.  It's not the money; it's the principle of the thing.  Well, it's ridiculously high, but that's not the point.  It's the principle.  If New York wants to drive people out of the state, I will lead the way.  That's the way I've looked at it since 1997.  The point is here is that Laffer is exactly right, and his point about Gates and Buffett is the bulk of their wealth is in the non-taxed form of unrealized capital gains.  They're not paying taxes on their wealth, contrary to what they and everybody else want you to believe.  And now Gates and Buffett met in some diner in Omaha recently and came up with a plan.  They want every billionaire to give away half of his or her wealth, either now or at their death, give it away to charity.  Now, I don't care what anybody does with their money.  Gates and Buffett can do whatever they want with their money, but I draw the line at them telling everybody else what they should do with theirs.  If they have a lot guilt over having amassed multiple billions of dollars, fine, then do with it whatever they want.  But don't take that guilt and try to spread it to everybody else, because once you start saying that billionaires ought to give away half of their wealth, well, then maybe everybody ought to give away half of their wealth up to, what is the magic number, $250,000 a year.  You live your life the way you want to but leave me out of it.  That goes for money, it goes for what I use to brush my teeth, to what kind of car I drive, to what kind of television set I buy, to whether or not I'm going to smoke a cigar or not, whether you're around or not.  So the point is that Laffer incentives work.  I'm going to tell you something else.  With these massive tax increases coming starting in 2011, that's why I told you yesterday the airline industry reported a two and a half billion-dollar profit this year, because they want to pay low tax rates on that profit this year, not next year.  I don't care how they got the profit, I don't care if they got it charging for carry-ons or for bags or what have you.  And there are a lot of corporations and industries that are gonna go ahead and report profit this year in order to pay tax on it this year, rather than defer it.  People who have the ability are going to move as much of their income to 2010 as they can.  Michael Eisner, 1992 in December, or maybe it was '93, the month before the Clinton retroactive tax increase went into effect that took the rate to 39%, Eisner sold $192 million worth of Disney stock -- and he had voted for Clinton, of course -- to escape the new tax increase.  And there are going to be a lot of people, people who have the ability to shift income, to take it earlier, whatever, they're going to do that to avoid these new tax increases.  The point is the tax increases that are coming are not going to raise the revenue everybody thinks.  People are going to be running away from this as fast as they can.  All these profits are going to be reported and there's going to be an economic downturn as a result next year.  "People can also change the timing of when they earn and receive their income in response to government policies. According to a 2004 U.S. Treasury report, 'high income taxpayers accelerated the receipt of wages and year-end bonuses from 1993 to 1992 -- over $15 billion -- in order to avoid the effects of the anticipated increase in the top rate from 31% to 39.6%," under Bill Clinton.  So Eisner's $192 million was part of that $15 billion.  "At the end of 1993, taxpayers shifted wages and bonuses yet again to avoid the increase in Medicare taxes that went into effect beginning 1994."  And to give you a real life example of how this works, our old friend the Breck Girl, John Edwards, who was always running around talking about the poor and poverty and there's two Americas, John Edwards organized his business under subchapter S rules.  So he went sub-S.  Now, the Medicare tax at the time was 1.9% of everything, not like the Social Security tax which has a ceiling.  I think the Medicare tax is now 3% of everything.  If you go sub-S, which is legal, don't misunderstand, if you organize under subchapter S, let's say your entire generated income in a year is, pick a number, 500 grand.  You can pay yourself a salary of $75,000, or $100,000 and pay Medicare and Social Security only on that and income tax and then take the other in bonus, which is exempt from the Medicare tax, it's salaries and wages and Edwards did that.  And everybody said, "How can you do that?"  "Well, I'm just taking advantage of the law."  "But I thought you wanted the poor people to get paid, I thought you wanted Medicare patients to get treatment."  "I do, but I don't want to pay for it."  Incentives matter.  "Just remember what happened to auto sales when the cash for clunkers program ended. Or how about new housing sales when the $8,000 tax credit ended? It isn't rocket surgery, as the Ivy League professor said.  On or about Jan. 1, 2011, federal, state and local tax rates are scheduled to rise quite sharply. President George W. Bush's tax cuts expire on that date, meaning that the highest federal personal income tax rate will go to 39.6% from 35%, the highest federal dividend tax rate pops up to 39.6% from 15%..." More than doubles.  "...the capital gains tax rate to 20% from 15%." Oh, that's another thing.  You're going to have a lot of people -- normally, you know, high-wealth people will take appreciated stock and they will donate that to charity, rather than sell it and pay the capital gains tax.  But a lot of people have been going ahead and selling stock and buying others and the capital gains at 15%, so it's going to go to 20.  So what's going to happen, you're going to have a lot of people who will sell stock, they will liquidate their positions in which they're holding a gain, prior to the end of the year in order to pay a lower capital gains rate of what Obama's new rate is starting January 1. All of this accelerated economic activity is gonna make the end of the year look like boom time.  But at the same time, when January rolls around and the first quarter and the second quarter hit, then, of course, there's no economic activity because these tax increases are in full force.  And people are going to be less interested in even reporting income, they're going to be looking for ways to shelter it or hide it so as to avoid paying these higher rates, the people that can, and the people that can are the people that hire you.  So you have the capital gains rate's going to go to 20% from 15, the estate tax right now is zero, it's going to go back up to 55%.  So a lot of people are probably going to die this year, they're gonna move their death forward so that their families don't have to pay any estate tax as opposed to next year when they would die, have to pay 55%.  "Lots and lots of other changes will also occur as a result of the sunset provision in the Bush tax cuts. Tax rates have been and will be raised on income earned from off-shore investments. Payroll taxes are already scheduled to rise in 2013 and the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) will be digging deeper and deeper into middle-income taxpayers. And there's always the celebrated tax increase on Cadillac health care plans. State and local tax rates are also going up in 2011 as they did in 2010. Tax rate increases next year are everywhere.  Now, if people know tax rates will be higher next year than they are this year, what will those people do this year? They will shift production and income out of next year into this year to the extent possible. As a result, income this year has already been inflated above where it otherwise should be and next year, 2011, income will be lower than it otherwise should be. Also, the prospect of rising prices, higher interest rates and more regulations next year will further entice demand and supply to be shifted from 2011 into 2010. In my view, this shift of income and demand is a major reason that the economy in 2010 has appeared as strong as it has," which ain't very strong, by the way.  "When we pass the tax boundary of Jan. 1, 2011, my best guess is that the train goes off the tracks and we get our worst nightmare of a severe 'double dip' recession. "In 1981, Ronald Reagan -- with bipartisan support -- began the first phase in a series of tax cuts passed under the Economic Recovery Tax Act (ERTA), whereby the bulk of the tax cuts didn't take effect until Jan. 1, 1983. Reagan's delayed tax cuts were the mirror image of President Barack Obama's delayed tax rate increases. For 1981 and 1982 people deferred so much economic activity that real GDP was basically flat," it contributed to that recession because people didn't want to pay those high tax rates, they wanted to wait around 'til '83 to report any income.  "The unemployment rate rose to well over 10%. But at the tax boundary of Jan. 1, 1983 the economy took off like a rocket, with average real growth reaching 7.5% in 1983 and 5.5% in 1984. It has always amazed me how tax cuts don't work until they take effect. Mr. Obama's experience with deferred tax rate increases will be the reverse. The economy will collapse in 2011.   Consider corporate profits as a share of GDP. Today, corporate profits as a share of GDP are way too high given the state of the U.S. economy. These high profits reflect the shift in income into 2010 from 2011. These profits will tumble in 2011, preceded most likely by the stock market." Folks, this next is key.  Listen to me.  Look at me.  "In 2010, without any prepayment penalties, people can cash in their Individual Retirement Accounts (IRAs), Keogh deferred income accounts and 401(k) deferred income accounts," without prepayment penalties.  "After paying their taxes, these deferred income accounts can be rolled into Roth IRAs that provide after-tax income to their owners into the future. Given what's going to happen to tax rates, this conversion seems like a no-brainer." Anybody who has a decent accountant is going to be advised to do this.  It's further economic activity taken outta next year and put into this year.  "The result will be a crash in tax receipts once the surge is past. If you thought deficits and unemployment have been bad lately, you ain't seen nothing yet." Remove Reply Quote Notify 3310  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: June 17, 2010, 03:22:20 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on June 13, 2010, 02:01:22 PM mbG quoting dictionary: "Synergism is...the [erroneous] doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives...To put it simply, synergism is the belief that faith is produced by our unregenerated human nature..." K_k: Synergism is erroneous.  What i am saying is that there is only one agent in regeneration, the Spirit of God.  And He will not force our wills to desire and accept Him.  The soul does not have an inclination toward holiness, but can be drawn, encouraged, inspired, enlightened, toward receiving His holiness, or it can continue to resist Him until the End.  I do not believe "that faith is produced by our unregenerated human nature". mbG quoting Spurgeon: "Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man." K-k:  The new birth is not separate from true faith in Jesus Christ.  The reception of the Gift of faith and the reception of the new regenerated nature are two aspects of the same action.  God answers our desperate cry, which He has developed without coercion, by giving us the faith in Him which is part of the regenerated nature.  It is not "this then this", but "this and this" simultaneously. By resisting the Gift of faith indefinitely, the lost are also resisting receiving the new nature which alone has unending Life, His Life.  And we would have continued resisting ourselves if we were not weaker in our rebellion than they.  So it is not our goodness that allows us to be saved, but rather our weakness against His wonderful persuasion. Been to busy to respond.  My point is if we do not start with God about the ability of the will then its synergism. As i have pointed out before that our wills prior to salvation or prior to regeneration where at enmity with God. By doing something in accordance with our wills we were doing the opposite of good. Because our desires in a saving sense did not exist in us. We did not have the nature to be willing.  There was no cause for us to want God to change us until He gave us His will. Then we willed what God wanted. Now i am not playing with words or ideas here. We are unable unless God makes us able. Not just in the sense of understanding what He would have us do but the power to do it. Every thing in the christian experience is caused from a source that is not our own. I do not even think we can reflect on our ability to get something from God. I mean that we must start from the premise that our desires are gifts from God. And that sin is a foreign agent. This comes from the conviction that salvation is a free gift and everything that we have as a cause of finding comfort and forgiveness is from a gift. I think this is the proper view of our new identity. This is why i do not confuse terms.  We naturally are concerned for our sin as a believer or we would not have the basis of our wanting forgiveness. We cannot desire to avoid this concern for our sin. Because we believe that it was a gift in the first place. We did not obtain it through our understanding and we do not understand in a natural way how to keep it. That is a waste of time. We have a new identity and now we have a totally new view of our struggles. Thats the point of the sermon on the mount... we are all of these things and we receive blessings because that is our nature.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 3311  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Election/Predestination on: June 15, 2010, 08:51:14 AM too busy .... i be bock Let me say one thing... This to me is like the story of Saul. Here you have the king of Israel... with all of the physical traits of a king. And then one day Goliath confronts all of Israel... but there is no response. So everyday Goliath comes into the valley to threaten and intimidate Gods people. But Saul who has the physical qualifications does not see Goliaths speeches and threats as a big problem. Saul was a qualified man... he even had all of the worlds philosophies and checks and balances to move things. He kept Israel to a certain standard of conduct. But God was not interested in a man of many people. God wanted a king who would respond in the defense of His glory and the people. Saul was too good for that. This is what happens when there are 2 or 3 generations who have been taught this kind of moralism. They have the armor but they do not have spiritual discernment. They live with a false peace while the enemy is in the house and he is causing all kinds of confusion. Because we did not stand for our doctrine the enemy has invaded our families. And we have Sauls lying around listening to the enemy call out his blasphemes day and nite. You might think i am calling for a physical assault... i am not... but we must stand for our doctrine in the face of threats and assaults to our character and our families.  David was a man who took these insignificant things very seriously. It wasnt even the moral fiber that David was focused on. It was what the man said. Because David knew that evil comes from the heart of man. Got to go.    Reply Quote Notify 3312  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: June 13, 2010, 01:05:11 PM Synergism is...the [erroneous] doctrine that there are two efficient agents in regeneration, namely the human will and the divine Spirit, which, in the strict sense of the term, cooperate. This theory accordingly holds that the soul has not lost in the fall all inclination toward holiness, nor all power to seek for it under the influence of ordinary motives...To put it simply, synergism is the belief that faith is produced by our unregenerated human nature... The Century Dictionary I say that man, before he is renewed into the new creation of the Spirit's kingdom, does and endeavours nothing to prepare himself for that new creation and kingdom, and when he is re-created has does and endeavors nothing towards his perseverance in that kingdom; but the Spirit alone works both blessings in us, regenerating us, and preserving us when regenerate, without ourselves... Martin Luther from Bondage of the Will pg. 268 Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man. C.H. Spurgeon from "Faith and Regeneration" Remove Reply Quote Notify 3313  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christian Supernaturalism: Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield on: June 13, 2010, 01:01:12 PM It is certainly to be allowed that it is no light task for a Christian man to hold his anchorage in the rush of such a current of anti-supernaturalistic thought. We need not wonder that so many are carried from their moorings. How shall we so firmly brace ourselves that, as the flood of the world's thought beats upon us, it may bring us cleansing and refreshment, but may not sweep us away from our grasp on Christian truth? How, but by constantly reminding ourselves of what Christianity is, and of what as Christian men we must needs believe as to the nature and measure of the supernatural in its impact on the life of the world? For this nature and measure of the supernatural we have all the evidence which gives us Christianity. And surely the mass of that evidence is far too great to be shaken by any current of the world's thought whatever. Christian truth is a rock too securely planted to go down before any storm. Let us attach ourselves to it by such strong cables, and let us know so well its promontories of vantage and secure hiding-places, that though the waters may go over us we shall not be moved. To this end it will not be useless to recall continually the frankness of Christianity's commitment to the absolute supernatural. And it may be that we shall find profit in enumerating at this time a few of the points, at least, at which, as Christian men, we must recognize, with all heartiness, the intrusion of pure supernaturalism into our conception of things. I. The Christian man, then, must, first of all, give the heartiest and frankest recognition to the supernatural fact. "God," we call it. But it is not enough for us to say "God." The pantheist, too, says "God," and means this universal frame: for him accordingly the supernatural is but the more inclusive natural. When the Christian says "God," he means, and if he is to remain Christian he must mean, a supernatural God - a God who is not entangled in nature, is not only another name for nature in its coordinated activities, or for that mystery which lies beneath and throbs through the All; but who is above nature and beyond, who existed, the Living God, before nature was, and should nature cease to be would still exist, the Everlasting God, and so long as this universal frame endures exists above and outside of nature as its Lord, its Lawgiver, and its Almighty King. No Christian man may allow that the universe, material and spiritual combined, call it infinite if you will, in all its operations, be they as myriad as you choose, sums up the being or the activities of God. Before this universe was, God was, the one eternal One, rich in infinite activities: and while this universe persists, outside and beyond and above it God is, the one infinite One, ineffably rich in innumerable activities inconceivable, it may be, to the whole universe of derived being. He is not imprisoned within His works: the laws which He has ordained for them express indeed His character, but do not compass the possibilities of His action. The Apostle Paul has no doubt told us that "in Him we live and move and have our being," but no accredited voice has declared that in the universe He lives and moves and has His being. No, the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him; and what He has made is to what He is only as the smallest moisture-particle of the most attenuated vapor to the mighty expanse of the immeasurable sea. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3314  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: June 13, 2010, 08:46:52 AM Reformed theology is not a study to enhance our understanding of God and thus understand ourselves. But reformed theology is reality. Because reality is woven in a time continuum in which all truth is applied as we experience these things both physically and spiritually. God is sovereign because He does what ever pleases Him... including our taking Him as a reformation God. This is why God teaches us not to trust in our knowledge of Him. But we are naturally created to worship the most High God. Our hearts are restless until we find all of our rest in God. Our hearts are not restless because of a lack of understanding of some kind of teaching. But we are led along from one refuge to another in a natural way to find God and thus we learn that God is better than anything in this world. Because every thought that is not centered in God as God is an idol thought. This is why God must express Himself through our humanity so that we have an understanding of our abilities to enjoy God in the most personal way. God is not a power... He is not a supernatural principle, not a set of arguments, but God is a person who is to be sought by us in the most personal terms with the utmost respect of His ability to work beyond our noses without our understanding. The most restful state on this earth is to experience God as sovereign in time and to have an assurance of what we receive in communication from Him is what we know of the certainty of future events. God is eternal. God exist in time as eternally present. God is God in every space in the universe. There is no where in all of time and space where God has been lesser than God. This is a natural way of God to prove that He does whatever pleases Him. It is not really important when we first know God... how we say a phrase about knowing God... how we distinguish between selfishness and unselfishness... but it is absolutely essential that we find our whole disposition to fall into a general rest of letting God be God. All of our communication about God is like baby talk. So when we find God we know there is very little we are able to understand about Him. This is the only way that our natural gifts and Gods eternal power can be expressed in a way that we are on the path to find that one day our faith will be turned to site.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3315  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: ETERNAL PREDESTINATION OF GOD John Calvin on: June 13, 2010, 08:23:09 AM In the first place, there is, most certainly and evidently, an inseparable connection between the elect and the reprobate. So that the election, of which the apostle speaks, Cannot consist unless we confess that God separated from all others certain persons whom it pleased Him thus to separate. Now, this act of God is expressed by the term predestinating, which the apostle afterwards twice repeats. He moreover calls those "chosen" (or elected) who are engrafted by faith into the body of Christ; and that this blessing is by no means common to all men is openly manifest. The apostle, therefore, by the "chosen," evidently means those whom Christ condescends to call after they have been given to Him by the Father. But, to make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd, and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle. "Paul does not (as Augustine wisely observes) declare that the children of God were 'chosen,' because He foreknew they would believe, but in order that they might believe. Nor does the apostle (says he) call them 'chosen,' because God had foreseen that they would be holy and without spot, but in order that they might be made such" Again, "God did not (says he) choose us because we believed, but in order that we might believe, lest we should appear to have first chosen Him. Paul loudly declares that our very beginning to be holy is the fruit and effect of election. They act most preposterously, therefore, who put election after faith." He further observes, "When Paul lays down, as the sole as the of election, that good pleasure of God which He had in Himself, he excludes all other causes whatsoever." Augustine, therefore, rightly admonishes us ever to go back to that first great cause of election, lest we should be inclined to boast of the good pleasure of our own will! Paul then proceeds to declare that "God abounded towards us in all wisdom and prudence, according to the riches of His grace, having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself." Thou hearest in these words, reader, the grace of illumination, flowing like a river from the fountain of that eternal counsel which had been before hidden. Far, very far, is this removed from the idea that God had any respect to our faith in choosing us, which faith could not possibly have existed except that God had then appointed it for us by the free grace of His adoption of us. And Paul farther confirms all this by declaring that God was moved by no external cause?by no cause out of Himself?in the choice of us; but that He Himself, in Himself, was the cause and the author of choosing His people, not yet created or born, as those on whom He would afterwards confer faith: "According to the purpose of Him (saith the apostle) who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. i. 11). Who does not see that the eternal purpose of God is here set in diametrical opposition to our own purpose and will? This passage also was deeply weighed by Augustine, who, in his interpretation of it, observes "that God so works out all things, that He works also in us the very willingness by which we believe." It is thus, I think, clearly brought out and proved who they are whom God calls by the Gospel to the hope of salvation, whom He engrafts into the body of Christ, and whom He makes heirs of eternal life; that they are those whom He had adopted unto Himself by His eternal and secret counsel to be His sons; and that he was so far from being moved by any faith in them to come thus to adopt them, that this His election is the cause and the beginning of all faith in them; and that, therefore, election is, in order, before faith.