Various topics 2

226	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Intimacy with God	on: June 17, 2014, 05:01:29 PM
Ive been so depressed in my life that I seriously was unable to feel the love of Jesus. This was after I had memorized most of the Psalms and was praying them over and over again. In fact I never went so low when the Psalmist expressed his deep need for God than at that time. Everyone experiences the same things ...there is no temptation that is not common to man. Every man has experienced grief, sorrow, pain, fear, dread, and anxiety. Not one of us has escaped these terrible frames. Why is it that some people can come from the most abusive situations and be successful? Its because everything we go through is how we view it. I believe there is a meta physical image of all interaction with physical things. I am saying that just because we see the beauty of creation does not mean that we are connected to the pleasure of enjoying that beauty. What connects us to the pleasure is experiencing the unity of the purpose of those things we come into contact with. I believe depression is feeling disconnected from the physical things. Its feeling meta physical rejection. I do not subscribe to any description of he human experience other than the scriptures. I believe we must express whatever is going on inside as the prescription for getting better. The Psalmist did not hold any of his problems inside. We are both spiritual and physical beings. We not only have faculties but we also have human emotions. We are not just focused on the will, ...which is always the big obsession with religion. We are not just intellectual. But we are mind , will and emotion. The temptation is to put acting before love. Most people are like the bull in the china shop. You wind them up and they do do do. They are like automatons. They just act without any connection to their view of pleasure,peace, love and kindness. When they describe their lives its in the context of how much they have accomplished or regretted that they did not accomplish enough. They never describe the event in the context of their experience. How they were feeling. And so they do not see that the event is their view of what was going on inside at the time they performed it. This is not the dichotomy the bible is talking about.  At all times we should be experiencing our lives in how our souls are aligned.
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227  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Answering the Crickets on: June 17, 2014, 01:15:59 PM Thanks tb im.gonna.respond later to the psychology on the other thread.  Dont have the time. Reply Quote Notify

228  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Right, salvation. Anything else? Fruit? Milk vs. meat? on: June 14, 2014, 07:46:35 PM This is a broad stroke. It depends upon the level of social gifts. I agree that its easy for us to make our social life narrow and unbending but thats because we really do not like our own gifts. We look at the christian life as having a lot of rules. But we should be the most helpful and the most accepting of people. The most obnoxious attitude is to always be labeling other people. By living in mystery we should not be supprised if God surprises us how much of an impact they have on our lives by just hanging out. The internet is not a place to make those kinds of connections. In my opinion its like sitting around beating a dead horse. Just go out and connect with people. Im not the kind of person who sits around complaining what some other people might not do or do. When the situation arises then find a solution. I just come on here to discuss theology. Reply Quote Notify

229  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Answering the critics. on: June 14, 2014, 12:45:56 PM Yes I agree. What is wrong with going to a party in the world and just enjoying yourself as a form of evangelizing? Why do we need to be a pest ? Why cant we have more enjoyment in the frolicking than the world? They only can trust in the forms that make up the party. We come with a heavenly Father who encourages us and protects us when we party. Ive seldom heard that a person came to Christ because the christian enjoy himself more than anyone else. Lol I speak from personal experience. Reply Quote Notify

230  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Right, salvation. Anything else? Fruit? Milk vs. meat? on: June 14, 2014, 12:24:28 PM My problem with the view that we are saved and we know this ...its salvation by grace...but there is another side to this...kind of like a coin...you flip the coin of salvation over and you have sanctification. I find no correlation in this division with the teaching of scripture. And this is the basis of American teaching. Its repeated so much that it becomes a universal inclusion of everyone who agrees with one side of the coin. I mean Americans can be completely wrong in the doctrinal sense but when the coin is flipped over we have no right to connect it to sanctification. So we all basically believe the same thing even tho we disagree on the fundamentals. This to me is the ultimate spiritual water boarding that goes on in America. If we divide salvation with sanctification then all the warnings are thrown out. All the inclusive views of scripture are silenced. I call this in a political sense the moderate wing of American religion. I smell a dead skunk when I hear people say that we need to move on. How can we move on when we dont even agree on whether the entire scripture is inspired? How can we act correctly if the cause of our action is from a position of heresy? The purpose of our writing is not to say things differently and because we set aside the truth to agree we are all right in our agreement. The purpose of writing is to be as close as we can in our interpretation of scripture. To say that most everything the scripture says is a mystery so since we cant understand it we can contradict it and we can pick and choose what we want to believe is participating in mindless speech. The bible says that every word will be judged. What we say matters. When we divide the christian experience, talk about the christian experience as steps to follow, or try to avoid controversy because the truth is not as important as agreeing, then it directs our lives. The purpose of being sanctified is not doing steps to achieve moral success. We have no consistent support from scripture in teaching this. There is one single purpose in all of life. It is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever. We do not divide our lives by our choices. Our reason for doing things is not because we choose to do them. Growing in the faith is does not have a to do list. But we pray according to our experience. The Psalmist does not approach God the same way in every psalm. Nor does the Psalmist write the Psalm out of a raw experience. But the Psalmist writes the Psalm with the purpose of teaching wisdom. The situation does not control his writing. He is simply trying to explain how he overcomes every obstacle and lives in the mystery...a salvation that is too wonderful to imagine. To reduce salvation to steps, a set of rules, or a proof of free will is to change the God we are worshiping.  Lets try to describe the christian experience that goes from the inside to the outside. Not divide it into salvation and sanctification. Well you can do anything you want but I will always write scripture.    Reply Quote Notify

231  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Right, salvation. Anything else? Fruit? Milk vs. meat? on: June 13, 2014, 10:04:10 PM I know we add problems because we do not seek biblical knowledge. But for the believer this is not a see  I got you mentality. Its not a chance for us to one up each other. We need to put the problem in its context. Because we are to watch out for the unlearned not condemn them. We are to always speak in a way that is encouraging as a way of teaching. We always need to be firm in defending the weak. We must develop a disposition that reacts like God allowing...that being generous beyond how we would measure the outcome of a situation and firm in the sense of conviction. Most people never grow to "be"..they just want to use words to control. When we approach God in wisdom we are creative and not offensive. But we can display seriousness in defending. I naturally like to debate so im trying to be more encouraging. But i hope my firmness is to defend grace. Reply Quote Notify

232  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Right, salvation. Anything else? Fruit? Milk vs. meat? on: June 13, 2014, 09:42:04 PM I do not believe we can take scripture out of its context. As I have stated before the bible describes a way of life. Im a carpenter ...lets say that I decide that I do not need a foundation because its not my personal preference then ...the building may look wonderful but the first big wind and my work comes crashing down. This is the way the bible is written...its one building block upon another. I would never us the word destroy in the context of a christian. Because it means that bad has won over good. To be destroyed is to be cursed in the biblical context. There is never a time where we suffer to the point of hopelessness. The bad stuff we suffer only motivates us to rise up to Gods anger over our personal anger. In rising up to Gods anger we push our anger down. That scar that we have from the emotional abuse or the spiritual sorrow becomes a universal desire for God to pronounce cursing or blessing as soon as possible. Maybe there are powers that are beyond our pay scale that need to be judged but it doesnt mean that God is not listening to us. As he says to the rich ...do not abuse the poor or when they call out i will judge you. There is never a time when we will lose. We may need to wait until the judgement day but we will be repaid. I know there are things that i have prayed about for years before they are answered. The constant petitioning is like building muscle.  I can honestly say there was only one time that i suffered that i  felt beyond hope. All of my other trials i have been very close to God...receiving wisdom beyond my wildest dreams.  I never had a bad experience that I have not used for my benefit in learning how to judge before I do it in the judgement. I find that the worse abuse gains us the most benefits in Gods eyes. To be destroyed is to be without hope. I never wish any of my brothers to perish. I do not want any man to perish but sometime its better for my personal condition to overcome anger through Gods judgements. I find that God is always better than I could ever imagine and much worse than my worse sorrow. When I pray I want the future... that being christian success to be allowed .. and for God to destroy destructive behavior. So I demand absolute judgement so that I will see christian unity that is uncommon. I never want to go down to use words out of the biblical context.   Reply Quote Notify

233  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Right, salvation. Anything else? Fruit? Milk vs. meat? on: June 13, 2014, 08:52:18 PM Hosea 4 Is a prophetic judgement upon the nation of Israel. The Charge Against Israel 4 Hear the word of the Lord, you Israelites,     because the Lord has a charge to bring     against you who live in the land: “There is no faithfulness, no love,     no acknowledgment of God in the land. 2 There is only cursing,[a] lying and murder,     stealing and adultery; they break all bounds,     and bloodshed follows bloodshed. 3 Because of this the land dries up,     and all who live in it waste away; the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky     and the fish in the sea are swept away. 4 “But let no one bring a charge,     let no one accuse another, for your people are like those     who bring charges against a priest. 5 You stumble day and night,     and the prophets stumble with you. So I will destroy your mother— 6     my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. “Because you have rejected knowledge,     I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God,     I also will ignore your children. Anytime you discussing perishing its in the context of unbelievers. The Psalms are full of pronouncements upon the wicked ...a curse of sorts....because they set up idols. And here the Prophet is pronouncing a curse upon the priest...just look at this... A man who is void of the knowledge of God seeks to redefine and explain away the existence of God. The Prophets were men who received special revelation from God and pronounced the coming judgement upon Israel. The knowledge of God cannot be understood by the natural man. Because divine knowledge cannot be understood by the natural man ...it must be implanted by God. Divine knowledge comes through Gods creation to recreation or vise versa. The natural man does not acknowledge God as his creator. He has no desire to seek after God. When a man is saved he is recreated. The saved man receives knowledge just like a plant sprouts from a seed and grows into a tree from being fed. The natural man does not have the implanted seed of God.  The process of implantation is how we determine what a man desires. Men who have not been implanted with the seed of the word of God are in the state of perishing. They are like the chaff that is blown away by the wind. They are like plants that shrivel up and die. We describe the natural man as having no desire for God. What does the natural man say in his heart? He says there is no God. Not only is the natural man at enmity with God but he does not acknowledge God he seeks to establish himself as a god. The most dangerous position in this world is for a man not to know that God is watching. Man by nature will not acknowledge that God is in control. God has established His government on this earth through His word. Every word of God is a creative word. God cannot be thwarted. He will establish His word because He rules from His throne. His throne is the working of everything that He has decreed. No man can mock God. He rules absolutely. God is the absolute judge at all times. He is absolutely just at all times. God has already fulfilled all the curses and established all of the blessing. A natural man believes that he can remove God from His throne. God establishes His rule by a continuous decree to upend all of the natural mans desires. In the end the natural mans desires will come to nothing. He will perish in judgement. Now listen ...Gods justice is that line between blessing and cursing. There is not gray area. We rise up to that line because God has given us enough pronouncements so that we are a part of His perfect recreation of good over evil. We have no ability to distinguish between good and evil on our own. We must seek to justify Gods ends of all things. We have no right to question Gods pronouncements. God is always right in bringing judgement and He is always just in blessing His people. A newly saved person understands a few facts about salvation. Because that person understand a few facts he is declared to be just. The few facts that he understand are equal to understanding all the facts of salvation because God implants His word in the spirit of all the words. God gives the new believer the Spirit of God. Even tho the new believer is unlearned and naive that new believer is looked upon by God as completely righteous. Once a man is implanted with Gods word and Spirit he cannot be a wild branch. He is given the desire to grow...a desire that is like the power that raised Christ from the dead. It cannot be thwarted. The prophet was pronouncing judgement upon the nation of Israel not upon Gods elect.       Reply Quote Notify

234  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Free sins vs our part. on: June 13, 2014, 09:22:44 AM I dont mix up doctrine. I know whos side believes what. I am a calvinist. I speak for myself. I have disagreements in some areas with every person. But I do not live my life on doing or feeling. I observe the doctrinal position and it is enough to understand what a person does by practice. No one can deny himself on his own. He must be given the ability by God. No one comes into the christian life with and understanding of self denial. He must be drawn by God to a rest that is uncommon. Gods rest cannot be copied. It comes through word and Spirit. No one can rest unless he is free from worry, anxiety, fear and sorrow. I do not mean there is no presence of these cursed dispositions but a man who struggles with assurance is gonna struggle with self denial. Anyone who is assured of Gods love will rise to deny himself like a person who ascends upon the rock. Now listen ...self denial cannot be achieved by a mans own strength. First because no one is able to access the spiritual drug of peace on his own. Yes we can use medication to achieve rest but that is only a partial remedy. When we rest we experience peace that is past our understanding. The christian life is not a change in doing but its being transformed by word and Spirit. We must have a transformed mind. Because the mind controls the heart. Some of the most obnoxious people have trained themselves to live their lives according to a list of things. If they accomplish that list then God likes them...if they fail then God is angry at them. The list thingy is not self denial. Self denial is finding Gods rest. Gods rest is where we experience salvation given to us as a gift. Salvation is not a warning to those who seek it. Its only a warning to those who do not understand or know they have it. How stupid is it to condemn yourself is you are aware of your sin. Even if you were aware because it was taught to you it still is in your best interest to apply grace to yourself. Listen to me... if you are always troubled by a lack of assurance there will be no hope of self denial. Your gonna be reduced to warring against yourself. You havent turned the corner and are still attempting to live the christian life on your terms. In self denial we do things that are not natural to our understanding. God turns our lives upside down. NO MAN CAN BE SAVED BY HIS OWN SELF DENIAL...NO MAN CAN KEEP SALVATION BY HIS OWN SELF DENIAL!  Reply Quote Notify

235  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Free sins vs our part. on: June 12, 2014, 12:26:41 AM I believe that we are unable to come to Christ on our own. I also believe that we are unable to live the christian life on our own. Some people will fudge on this because the bible does have commands for us to obey. So they will say that look here are the commands so this means that we have a part in our christian growth. My question is does the bible intend to say because there are commands that it means that this is our part? I always look to all scripture to give me the context of a particular scripture. The question is what does the scripture teach is the only tool by which we can be sanctified? Paul says to mortify the flesh by word and Spirit. I do not believe the apostle is saying that we need to have an answer of scripture for a situation in our lives. He is saying that we must learn the scripture so that we know how to apply it. So the apostle is saying that the scripture not only tells us what we are to do but it opens up the causes and ends of doing something. So the scripture is not really a hand book on how to build things into the christian life. It explains to us who we are and we are transformed into that image. The question is then if we do not obey is it too simple to say that we are not willing to obey? The scripture does not just offer us a choice but it teaches us how to think, empowers us to live in Christ power, and gives us a healthy disposition. So if we are given new life does this mean that it gives us the power to obey without depending on God? The scripture tells us who we are. This means that it explains it to us so that we can distinguish what is true of us and what is false. So there is a bold declaration and it is backed up by God. When I talk about every word of scripture being a legal word I am simply saying that everything that God has said demands a verdict. It must be complied with or it has no legal authority over any thing. So when we are commanded to do something there is no sliding scale. Either we meet the highest standard that is acceptable to God or we must be punished. There is no gray area with God. NEVER! This is why we believe that we need a complete substitute. See if we believed that we are able to obey then we would not really believe we need a substitute. The very definition of a substitute is the He takes our place and meets the demands of the law. My point is that the idea of substitution is not a crutch that we can turn to. Its a legally binding transaction that has been stamped with a seal. So when we say that we obey because Christ met the demands of the law we are actually prosecuting the other ways that are offered to meet the demands. We are demanding justice. Ill stop here but in this sense Gods word is not manual but its a rock that we stand on even tho we do not keep the law on our own in the legal sense. But God must be absolutely just at all times. So substitution is too wonderful for us to imagine. Reply Quote Notify

236  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Where is boasting? on: June 11, 2014, 06:00:12 PM Salvation is a gift. Salvation takes care of everything in our lives. Everything that we are or have is by the grace of God. So nothing really belongs to us. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Why did God give us a gift and then tell us that we do not own it? Because God wants all the glory. Even tho it belongs to us yet we cannot take the glory for it. We cannot glory in ourselves but only in the gift .. only in Christ. There is nothing wrong with boasting in God. But this gift is not really for our moral ability but its for our encouragement because we are caught in between the great war of the heavens. God and Satan.. or his ruling through the high places. God as governor is at war with the kingdoms of this earth. The teaching of grace is a political teaching its not just religious. Because of grace God has a special place for the poor and helpless in a political sense not just religious. Grace is actually Gods language of recreation. Man is born in rebellion. God has established absolute freedom for every man because of grace. But man twist Gods plan of salvation by grace and seeks to establish his own government through destructive means. Because man will not submit to God then he goes out against his neighbor. Every man who makes himself a god will subdue everyone in order to achieve his desire. Through Gods words He establishes His grace over all the earth. God simply does not let man fulfill his desire. God reorders society by speaking curses and blessings. He brings the plans of the wicked to nothing. He establishes the desires of the righteous. Reply Quote Notify

237  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Answering the critics. on: June 11, 2014, 05:50:53 PM Quote from: morning listener on June 11, 2014, 05:28:30 PM Brother I don't know if you are addressing me, but I suspect that perhaps you are because of the comment "this os exactly what Jesus taught".  We have some different opinions but that doesn't bother me. If your post is just a general statement then maybe ignore this, but If your post is intended as a correction to mine, I might propose that "Living in grace" is an abstraction that has no concrete referent. Grace is not a magic shower that flows into our cranium which changes us for the better down here in the trenches. It protects us from our own general sh!ttyness before Gods apparent wrath and allows us re-entry as a species back into His kingdom. I hope that one day we all maybe read the red letters again. Together. All of them. Carefully. If we stop co-opting the variety and totality and interconnectedness of all that he taught, meditate on them, like you with the psalms, and stop subsuming it into our dogmas and pet theories I truly believe that the majority of debates people have about this stuff would just vanish. The question is always when talking about Jesus is who He is addressing His teaching to? What kind of culture was it in Israel when He was upon the earth. And a lot of people take these hard sayings and put them in the category of Jesus is the covenant protector ...that being ... coming to condemn Israel for their rebellion to their side of the OT covenant. lol As you are focused on the red letters...i am very skilled in the ot worship book. There is nothing that gets by me as to what the Jews ...Gods covenant people believed.  When God established the covenant of grace ...the promise to Abram that He would have a seed like the stars of the heavens ...it was a one sided covenant. Now if you focus on the teaching of all the covenants it is confusing until you see how they describe it in the worship book ...Psalms...lol. Since Ive memorized this book..as well as the book of Proverbs... for 30 years of meditation... when I read the narrative I see the direction of the words used that are interrelated to the worship book. So I have an understanding of the word usage because I have more understanding of how they taught the people in the context of the words. We know that the main purpose of Christ coming was as a deliverer and not a teacher. Because we think in the Greek context we are always misrepresenting the narrative of Christ. Christ came to establish His kingdom...that was over one nation...He established His authority over all governments ... which magnified the ot curses and blessings instead of replacing them. Christ was the ot David who pronounced curses and blessings in His life to deliver His elect. The hard teaching was to condemn the political and religious authorities for their abuses. Reply Quote Notify

238  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Answering the critics. on: June 11, 2014, 05:02:03 PM We get confused by the two line teaching. Two line teaches that God has a side and we have a side. Both of these lines never meet. But we also know that there is a law of non contradiction. You cant say about a person that they are both evil and good at the same time in the same event. We see that two line teaches contradiction. But we know that we are saved by grace and we live our lives in that grace that we were saved in. This is exactly what Jesus taught. The rich man came to Him and said...Master Ive done all that the law requires can you tell me if there is any thing else I need to do? Jesus was not happy with this mans question. Jesus cursed Him by placing the whole weight of the law upon the rich man. And we see this same situation repeated throughout Jesus ministry. We know that it was forbidden in the ot for Israel to go to war without first asking God if He would go with them. The reason is that even tho the law, the decrees, and the statutes had been established in Israel it did not give them the authority to pursue war through the establishment of their government. The question wasnt how they were to fulfill their responsibility. They never reasoned that because they were given the oracles then they could pursue the covenant that God had established that included the eliminating their enemies from the promise land. No they were forbidden to act on their own.  No such thing as two line here. And what was their response? How did they confess their obedience to honor God correctly? They would say that its not in their horses... not in their swords ... but its in the Name or authority of the Lord alone..They did not say God commanded this and we must do it...no they confessed that God alone does it! Reply Quote Notify

239  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Free sins vs our part. on: June 11, 2014, 04:33:41 PM Let me cont. .. You know Ive been doing this for a long time. And one of the puzzling experiences is that when I describe real grace ...the more I describe that greatness of the gift.. the more I experience opposition from some people. Its like someone offering you a million dollars for the taking and your upset because there is nothing you do to receive it. Why do people oppose the teaching of freedom? Why is it that we are so concerned about a persons christian liberty? Because we know that the teaching of grace is the teaching of freedom. Grace teaches us that no matter how big or bad our sin is that Christ has covered it. I mean how do you measure grace if we must show that we deserve it? Thats like saying God must punish me because if I show that I need grace then the gift of salvation is not that big. But grace is ....the greater the need the greater the grace. There is no such thing as grace if there is no sin. Why do we talk ourselves out of being saved to show that we need grace? The whole point of being saved is that we need grace or we would not be saved. lol So I tell people if your gonna put grace on a scale then you need the whole law placed upon you. Because you do not see the importance of the freeness of grace. I base my belief that we can only grow when we are most free is that in salvation we get the full gift. I describe it as everything we are told not to do is already programmed in us in a spiritual sense. And every thing good is already allowed to prosper. Even tho we fail we are not reduced to that old.  Relationship to the law. Let me address two line. Freedom is real freedom. Its not the freedom we are given up front and taken away in sanctification. Lol We become free by being reminded that we are. We already intuitively know we are sinners. We are not in the position of atoning for ongoing sin. The atonement is really really finished. No i mean really. We are justified in justifying our actions even though we are sinners. Reply Quote Notify

240	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Free sins vs our part.	on: June 11, 2014, 04:15:56 PM
I agree with Steve...ive always thought Steve was seeing the big picture and understood the current problems in the church. Let me say that anytime we focus on our christian growth there are tendencies to focus on things that are true that are secondary to the essential truths of salvation. This christian life is not really living a life that we try to simplify. I mean when we are saved we do not have a lot of connection to other christians. So our initial focus is on what God has done to us. I believe that most of us in our first experience of salvation know more than most christians who have been saved for quite some time. So I do not really believe that we need other christians to inform us of how alive our first christian experience is. So why is it backwards? Why do the christians who have been saved for a long time show no excitement like we experience as new believers? Its just logical that there is a natural decline that happens to mature christians. I know that Ive been encouraged as an older christian when I see someone who is saved for the first time. There is something fresh , like going to buy a brand new car. So the question begs us as to why we decline? Why does the new christian display an appreciation of receiving a gift that we must acknowledge that we have been taking it for granted.  The logical answer is that we go from God saving us to coming in contact with everyone who has an answer. lol Everyone becomes a counselor. lol You know its taken me a number of years to know how to go back to my first love. Because I listened to people who I trusted that led me astray. Well meaning people. And this is what I am saying. The christian life is about living in the essential truths of salvation. Its about keeping our eyes upon one thing. The problem is not about our sin, or our reputation. Its being convinced that God is just as able to love us ...in the simplicity as He loved us when we were the worse at our first conversion. We cannot lose that simplicity that is in Christ.