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811	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Mental Illness or Demonic possession?	on: December 16, 2012, 04:18:42 PM
I do not know what the Devils activity looks like because ive never seen the Devil or a demon. But i could swear that i was confronted with the Devil or some demon a number of years ago. But it may have been a psychological war only. I was thrown into confusion and depression for 3 years. And since i had memorized the battle Psalms i spent most of those three years ...nite and day.. crying out to God. When you have been confronted with that kind of neurosis nothing is as painful as that anguish. But God delivered me from it and ive never felt that i could overcome anything in this life since then without His power. I do not think i was ever the same person after that fierce battle. But if you look its really not denouncing evil spirits or the Devil ..himself. But the old adage that the devil is in the details gives us a picture of the devil behind the acts of all his children. If you want to know what the Devil is like just look at his children. But this really is not a direct attack but more indirect ...that being through a kind of kingdom brainwashing. But at the same time i do not think that we can say the weapons of the Devil are dangerous. I mean in the sense that we can have some kind of mystical sorrow given through our relationship with this world.  We need to be very careful about what is psychological anger and what is true righteous indignation. I mean anyone can react to danger by being angry and fearful but the truth is the Devil has been disarmed by the cross. We must be in the world so a lot of what we think is opposing us is already been disarmed and we find the people are helpless under the power of evil. Our problem is not their evil making us evil but its in us. A lot of this battle with the world is seeing how blind people are to what they think is true. So we have a tendency to mistake the curse of evil like kriptonite thinking that the person somehow transfers evil to us like a sickness. But we see things that are dangerous in a different world. We see beyond what the world sees. So we are more easily free to be who we are because we experience insight and something foreign that allows and defends. When you are what you are made to be then those ideas that hold people captive are brought into focus by our being who we are created to be. This is what Jesus did. He transformed the party. He brought hope where there was very little. He gave conviction in a not threatening way by His example of freedom by His love. Jesus was the real thing. So we see that this ability we have is having power in this world living in the reality that the Devil has been disarmed.
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812  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Have We Been Deceived? on: December 16, 2012, 03:54:52 PM Quote from: Jeffrey on November 27, 2012, 03:10:49 PM If you have been told that once you come to faith in Christ all will be pleasant and what we would call fair, and you believed it, you have been deceived. If you believe there is a irreconcilable conflict between beleiving God to be good and the facts of life on earth as we know it, well, that is wrong too. But I am not a Calvinist who thinks that every thing on earth that happens is a the direction of God. I don't know that all self described Calvinists would say that, but I know a number personally who do. I don't argue much with them. I have considered pointing out passages where the scriptures say something along the lines of "And God looked at what they were doing, and it was continually evil in His sight". I should post some in here to make my point, but I imagine most of us know they are there. So, I would ask, is it somehow reconcilable that God looks at what people often do, calls it evil, and yet it was all at His command and direction. He calls what He caused men to do evil? I don't think so. So, my point is, that God is good, and people in general are not. And for reasons I can't grasp, He does allow us to do things we shouldn't do. Frankly, I do things I shouldn't every day and which I am 100% is not in His will. But I believe free will is real. Your point about freedom seems to be something that God is not intimately involved with. But for reasons that we do not understand God has decreed evil. I do not think that people decide one day they are gonna be in the group that does good things and then do things that God warns is gonna bring judgement. But all men find themselves in one of two groups. But who believes by reading the account that you bring up about Jesus warning the crowds of judgement that they really think they are gonna be judged? The point is that only believers understand the account of the truth of what that judgement is gonna be when they read the account. I dont decide i am gonna understand it. But i am reading it with the light on so to speak. So when we see the written account the bible is giving us a view of men being in complete darkness so that we will see how good God is by our understanding it.  Not how free we are by deciding its true. Reply Quote Notify

813  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I Darkly chall'nged my faith- on: December 16, 2012, 03:31:13 PM Guys i do not have anyone on ignore. I think the last time i checked i am ignored by 3 people. It doesnt matter that i am ignored. I dont come on here to carry on a friendship. I just have a hard time thinking that a computer friendship is a real one. I dont think i am influenced by the computer as a culture of real interaction as if it affected me to the point where i was in need of it fulfilling my basic human connections. But i like discussing things no matter what view point is put across. I consider it a worthy challenge. As well as feeling the responsibility of convincing someone else of my position and not thinking it was their fault. So i come on here with a sense of the reality that i am trying to explain. In some ways this is an experience for me through writing.   Reply Quote Notify

814  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: This Sunday's Pre-Sermon Comments on: December 16, 2012, 02:35:30 PM Some people disparage Calvin by saying that God designed evil for the purpose of destroying people. Since God decreed the sin of the first man then He had destructive purposes that He placed upon man. But how can we be angry at the perpetrators of crimes if in fact we are putting God in that same category? What is the difference in God and a criminal? But instead of explaining this in terms of how God views one small sin let me explain this in how God protects us. Obviously if there is one sin then it is not only a deed done against God but against mankind. Here is the problem.  If God is a God of destruction then what kind of reaction would be acceptable other than to rejoice in the destructive acts that man do against one another? I do not think we can have a God who is half in the destructive mood and half in the renewal mood. Obviously since sin entered the world and God decreed it to enter then the question is for what reason did God allow sin to enter into the world? This question produces more questions.  There is a lot of mystery about why God would allow sin and destruction. So since God does not address this in detail then we are in danger of adding to the destructive purposes of sin and thus adding to the sorrow of sin. If we try to pursue the things that are mysteries then we add sorrow to ourselves. The point is that God has decided to protect us from destruction by giving us a clear view of the difference between what sin does and how God acts to renew the earth. Its like this..if i did not know what the diseases was that was killing people then i would not know what to avoid. I would not be familiar with my own susceptibility to the dangers of catching that disease. But if the disease was shown to me then i could avoid it. Well God has not explained all the reasons that He has decreed sin but He has given us an explanation about identifying it and having a full remedy so that we do not suffer the physical and mental effects of it. But we know that sin has brought the curse of death. And yet God has given us a desire to live. That desire in the bible is called a blessing. And on the other hand the consequences of sin is to be cursed. So the question is since God has not explained the reasons He decreed sin then isnt it a curse to us to try to explain the evils and the destructive consequences in trying to blame God? And this is the whole point of God declaring that He alone is the judge of the earth. Its for our own good. So God knows that we would try to act as a god if we accused Him of being unjust in decreeing sin. But God does not explain Himself.. He just declares that He is a God of salvation and in order to set the world back in order He must curse sin for the purpose of protecting His people from its curse. Its just like when you were raising kids and you said that the wise thing was to pick your fights. Some things you let slip by because these things would pass because they were immature at the time. So you did not become overbearing. The bible warns about our not covering over a multitude of sins. So God in distancing us from being the arbitrators of ultimate justice because He has cursed and blessed some allows us to empathize with all men. God has given us all freedom to fail and move on by Him taking the responsibility of being the ultimate arbitrator.     Reply Quote Notify

815  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dumb things Christians say on: December 15, 2012, 02:08:03 PM Quote from: Lone Arranger on December 15, 2012, 09:47:44 AM Gman, it was the amish, and the shooter was a milkman from the community that shot amish school girls.  That the amish forgave him and welcomed his family with love in spite of his actions was a tribute to their faith whether it is one we'd approve of or not. Now to the issue.  In your first post you said, "If God was so in control, he could have easily jammed the gun before anyone got killed, or even prompted an officer to pull the guy over before he even got to the school. Or perhaps even let the first round explode in the gun and leaving injuries to the shooter allowing people to capture him without incident."  May I ask why God doesn't stop you from thinking a negative or lustful thought?  It's the same principle.  God is perfect in holiness.  If He were to stop the gunman he'd likewise have to stop every unholy action and thought of anyone and everyone the world around.  Someday He will, but the time has not come yet.  It's man's way of thinking God "should" act in circumstances we find loathsome, but excuse those that are "just human nature" like anger or lust or self righteousness.  But to God sin is sin.  To stop one action - the gunman - He'd likewise have to immediately and completely stop every sin and anything less than sinless perfection.  Let's just be glad for our own sakes He hasn't done that yet for those yet not saved.  At least all these children under the age of accountablility will be welcome in His presence.  That could not be said for every soul on the face of the earth that would, in that instant He stopped the gunman, immediately be thrust into accountability in the presence of a Perfect Sinless God.  BTW, I agree with Huckabee.  At least before the Christian faith was banned from schools people had hope.  What I find  most distressing in the exspongement of Christianity for our country is it leaves people without hope.  Where do you go, where do you turn, what hope (or accountablility) do you have if there is no God?  And yet our country wants people to forget about God, be huministic and be their own gods.  Doesn't work when you have a big problem, and living facing a 6' hole in the ground is a big problem.  People need God, and it's a travesty and a tragidy that the gov is attempting to banish Him from "we the people."  We are paying for that now.  We've sown to the wind by denying God, and now we reap the whirlwind.  "In the last days perilous times shall come..."      I agree that people do things against other people as evidenced of their freedom. But why would God in the events of this world respond to our pain saying "Who are you to talk back to me? "Then He goes on to say that He is a potter and has made some people for His purpose and some people for destruction. So the explanation of why a disaster happens is in the context of redemption. Because it is the only medicine that will help our suffering. Could we say that if we believe that we are totally dependent upon God that it is necessary to believe that all of our actions are done because He pre enabled us to perform them? The point is that if God made us free to do some things without His help then what are those things described as in a universal sense? Which leads us to believe that some things are presumed by our own power. So then we have some things that we are required to accomplish and some things that God gifts us by His grace. But if God gifts everything to us then the power to do it is a gift as well. Are there presumptions that we have enable us to explain why people do the things they do? Or do we by these presumptions put ourselves in the place of God? This is what is so dangerous about having presumptions because we describe human freedom in a category that is different from God giving us all that we have including the power to do good. Because it gives us an opportunity to blame God when we face disaster. If people in fact believe that bad came to them because they presumed that it was the result from their own power then Gods purpose in it was to check their power. This will lead to a pragmatic God. But if we believe that we are totally dependent upon God for the ability to do anything including our failure then we are forced to come to a God who offers everything freely. Since we do not have the ability apart from God granting it to us. In this we find only a good God in the worse of trials.    Reply Quote Notify

816  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: December 15, 2012, 01:29:32 PM The purposes of God in ordering events in this world are in His response to the destruction that is on this earth through authorities.  God is fighting against the high places.  Any nation that has existed is ordered by God in light of Gods display of His heavenly created beings that bring Him glory. God is surrounded by a multitude of angels, the heavenly elders, a display of Himself in fire and wind predominately and the beautiful cherubim that order the events of this world to be carried out in the plan of redemption. Evil governments produce personal individual destruction. A destructive scheme is working against Gods plan of salvation. So we explain the plight of a persons experience of the negative adversity of his personal salvation in light of the evils of government. God works in the plan of redemption in ordering the earth to reflect His heavenly order.  We see the necessity of saving people to be in Gods response of judgement upon nations.  Our identity as a people forms our religious identity within a nation. In Gods plan is His ordering everything He has designed from the creation to be renewed until the end. This includes judging nations. This is exactly what is described throughout the history of this world. God has a throne. In the ot Gods earthly throne was a type of heavenly throne. The description was that He came forth from the mountain and He displayed His heavenly forces from the skies. We understand Gods judgements as a response to the evil activity of nations.  God responds in light of His appearance as He is on His throne. He appears in flashes of lighting, rumblings, fire , whirlwinds and the shaking of the earth.  When we view God on His throne we see that throughout the history of this world He responded to the plight of the poor ... and evidence of the corruption in a nation... in these effects. God connects His power to judge with real descriptions of how we experience disaster. Anytime we read the prophets warnings in the ot it is Gods national message to the disorder of that society. Because God has a heavenly army He has made His angels to act against the evils of this world in an orderly fashion. He has given His cherubim the responsibility to carry our His judgements upon the earth, and the inhabitants of the earth. He has judged the earth with fire, plague,wind and earth quakes. The effects of the these destructive responses are described in a holistic fashion. So we see the cherubim proceeding in these whirl winds or circular wheels. This is just a description of God enacting His judgements on the elements of the earth and on the inhabitants of the earth. These eyes of the cherubim and the wheels describe His knowledge as a judge to bring justice in a precise manner. This advancement of Gods heavenly army is being carried out until the final judgement.     Remove Reply Quote Notify

817  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Why Is There Evil in the World? on: December 15, 2012, 12:36:07 PM There are physical reasons for mental illness. I know this from experience having a handicap child. There are areas of the brain that must function properly for a person to evidence order in his behavior. If the brain is damaged a person can experience hallucinations, hearing voices etc. If a person hears voices then they are gonna experience extreme anxiety which causes them to retreat into themselves. I believe in medication because ive seen how it helps to control the brain to normalize its function. But at the same time it is evidence that evil exist. And that there is no remedy for the effects of evil on this side of heaven. To say that a person who suffers under the effects of some kind of physical problem that it can be fixed is as bad as thinking there is no God. The evidence demands a verdict. So the question is really not that sin exist by the endurance of the pain but how do we apply a remedy that best works to bring a person the most comfortable solution. To say that we understand the level of suffering in this world that other people go through is very presumptuous. This is why in this confusion there is really added suffering. We see someone who is anti social and our first reaction is to focus on the stigma of the person. The reason that we do this is because we understand the dangers of being affected by the person. I mean who wants to endure the negative effects of the persons neurosis? I understand this ...having a child that is handicapped. Can we deal with people on a social level that do not live with a normal stable emotional center? I think we can and still be supportive without being affected by their behavior. We must learn to deal with our own reactions in these situations. And this is part of the curse of sin. Because any time we are faced with a destructive effect it is to touch that part of life that is the result of sin. This is where we begin to deal with destructive effects on our inside. These effects are the adversity we face in how we experience christian freedom. Once we begin to identify these destructive effects of sin that are like a plague to us then we are more and more able to gain freedom. That full experience of Gods glory being evidenced as His life surpassing these destructive effects to us.   Reply Quote Notify

818  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: December 15, 2012, 12:05:47 PM Jesus words are eternal. So they really do not originate from us. Gods words are said to be words of life. This is why God says the all that creation was put into existence by His word. All of Gods words are words of creation and recreation.There is no space in all of eternity that is not under the authority of Gods word. The earth is designed from the counsel of God from eternity past. The earth is a revelation of Gods creative word. It has been firmly established because God ordered it by His , decrees, statutes, laws, and promises. So God in eternity past put the earth on display that He has existed through all eternity as immutable and unchanging. Gods creation is in perfect symmetry of all that He is. The world has been firmly established ..it cannot be moved.If the world could be moved from its access point it would throw the whole universe out of order. So we look at the order in days, months, years and in the beauty of all the God created and we see that there is nothing in God that is working against all things bringing glory to Him. Even those things that seem to be out of order are actually working for the purposes of God to bring Him glory. What does this do to help us see our own purpose in this world? When we see this earth as a creation of God we understand that Gods word is eternal. Because not only do things exist by His word but everything is sustained by His word. His word is from ideas that are revealed in His spoken word and from a vocabulary that we do not understand. Some of the reasons for events in this world are not known by us. So we fully acknowledge that Gods word is able to produce changes that are instantaneous and supernatural. Our purpose in glorifying God is experienced as we exalt His word beyond our own wishes and attempts to order our own course by our words. Reply Quote Notify

819  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: I am He as you are He as you are Me... on: December 15, 2012, 11:38:12 AM RR this is a very dangerous game we play because we do not hold fast to the biblical distinctions about our view of the differences in people. The bible says that man looks on the outward but God looks on the heart. So we really have no rite to judge someone who is different from us even tho we may be settled in our beliefs. I mean its a matter of us knowing how to apply what we know as being unbending in our principles. This is why the bible is a book that describes God as the ultimate judge. The point is that whatever view we have of God is how we are exposed to the dangers of being miss guided in our attempt to put people in our mold.This is why the apostle says that he judges no man according to the flesh. Now that line drawn in the sand seems to be extreme. But how can the gospel be effective if we do not give it the priority of being the changing agent? It would seem to me the apostle was stepping out of the way of putting forth his personal agenda for the purpose of exalting the gospel of grace. Weve got to understand not only that the gospel is an offer of freedom but its the only basis as the expression of how a person functions in society as a sinner who focuses on glorifying God through his own gifts. So this is a matter of the development of gospel success in a united effort to move toward one goal. Because the gospel is the only basis of bringing people under the power of God to live to glorify Him. Reply Quote Notify

820  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: I am He as you are He as you are Me... on: December 09, 2012, 04:29:17 PM rr that was very insightful. I think Jesus destroyed every mans attempt to put Him in a direction they thought would be the best way in dealing with the people and situations. What does it mean for us to have this sense of freedom so that we all find our purpose and express our gifts that go against the human culture and prejudices? I think it comes from seeing the futility of acting for someone else even tho we get a sense of satisfaction and purpose. I think it is possible to come to a place of acceptance with God so that we do not put situations into categories but just to enjoy God by enjoying other people. So the question is .. have we really been loved by God enough to be comfortable with being satisfied in knowing that in any situation His love was so profound that we could not attempt to be something better in acting for other people. I guess if i could say its a determined effort of self reflection whenever we are in a situation that would be something that we tried to be not who we are. So its an enjoyment we have of self forgetfulness that comes from a power that we do not have. And i think people are taught to trust other people and expect something in return. So they are always looking for something that takes them in a circle. And this is what Jesus was trying to free us from. The tyranny of finding our satisfaction of knowing we are loved by a man. Because we are like two ships passing in the night. The chase for the expectation is more real than trying to be satisfied with our expectation being fulfilled. So we are always under the tyranny of our unfulfilled expectations. This is something we are good at doing in our own power. And i do not doubt that people are so psychologically damage that this is the only safe trade off for them... in some ways we are all like this.  Reply Quote Notify

821  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: December 09, 2012, 02:34:01 PM Let me discuss our renewed desires. A desire is like a wish...its equivalent to the ot concept of a blessing. So a blessing is pronounced over the righteous. Or from Gods view point a blessing is a word of deliverance. Our lives are blessed because we wait for Gods new word of deliverance. Because we not only have been completely delivered from this world but still experience a sense of distance from totally resting in being delivered as if we did not feel resistance from fear, anxiety, and sorrow. So we are always being pulled away from our last conversion. We heard that word that we had been longing for and experienced that peace but then it did not seal us to live in it consistently. We call this experience as our longings not being fulfilled on this earth. We long to long again. We long because when we find God all is well again. So we go through a kind of child birth. We experience contractions we long to be delivered. Its looking for the new morning. That morning that is a new day. The new morning is our desire to hear God speak His love to us. So the day begins with longing for something that is new. Its longing for the next morning. And it can be a longing that is not fulfilled in the next morning but in a future morning. It is God speaking His peace or His word of deliverance. So there is our growing in knowledge but there is also this personal experience of walking in our salvation. Its like walking down a path. Our success is how much we are able to focus on the goal. Our ability to over come is how we desire what He has said. The more we wish for what God has said is His wish the more we are gonna experience a kind of beatific experience. There is a groaning like being in child birth then there is a birthing. The birthing is our victory in a battle. This is like a new conversion of our faith. So we begin to long and succeed only to long and be resisted in a greater way.      Reply Quote Notify

822  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: I am He as you are He as you are Me... on: December 09, 2012, 02:03:03 PM cont....God has given us who belong to His church..both visible and invisible the absolute rite to judge situations without having to go to the world. Because God is gonna adjourn His court in the future and judge the inhabitants of this earth. This is what every person who experiences injustice on this earth is looking forward to. God will rite the false scales. Every thing will be brought out in the open. Why does God not judge our accusers and our enemies with swift punishment? Because God is working to save men from every tribe , nation, language and people. God is not only just but He is patient.  But God has given us a chance to appear before the courts of heaven before the final judgement. And He has given us the language of His court so that we can go any time to argue our case. God loves for us to force ourselves before His throne to plead with Him to bring about His final judgement and to protect His elect. In fact our responsibility is to bring our petitions before Him as these petitions are described as a sweet smelling aroma that ascend to His throne. Our ability to appear before Him and argue our case is what the bible calls praying with understanding. We are responsible to prepare ourselves for the final judgement of God when He will have all men stand before Him to reward some and punish some. Our pleasure on this earth is knowing this great Judge who collects our petitions for that final judgment. There is a sense in which with this daily appearance that we will be vindicated out of the enjoyment of growing in our communication in this redemptive language. It will be a sweet day when that language will become site.  Reply Quote Notify

823  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: I am He as you are He as you are Me... on: December 09, 2012, 01:43:56 PM Quote from: 1Prince on December 02, 2012, 04:24:00 PM Quote from: mybigGod link=topic=16575. msg264384#msg264384 date=1354427344 "Father, the hour has come.   Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him.    " I do not know why you passed up the main point of Christ high priestly prayer. .  and then you highlighted the further explanation. Here Christ is saying that every person who believes in Him was given to Him by the Father.  So salvation is in God alone.  The Father sent the Son into the world to obtain salvation for those the Father elected and gave to the Son.  Then He describe this union that His elect have with the Trinity in the Son.  Because we are identified with Christ who is God then we are united to God in this Trinitarian relationship between the Father Son and Spirit. . in Christ. No, He did not say anything about a trinity.  That is mans misunderstanding.  How can there be only three when the son of man has said his followers would have his same words and name with the glory given to him as One.  This clearly states his followers are One with him and the Father.  There are to be far more than three in the Oneness of the Lord.  It is the son that saves all, but it is by becoming the son, the son of man or child of God that saves. The son can do nothing on his own he can only do what he sees the Father doing.  Whatever the Father does the son does likewise for the Father loves the son and whatever he does He shows him. It is impossible for man to be saved but everything is possible for god. "I said you are gods, all of you children of the Most High.  But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler. " Rise up O god and judge the earth for all the nations are your inheritance. First the phrase "“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him” (Dan. 7:13)."Son of man" is a phrase only used of Christ. It expresses His eternal existence. He rules over all the earth from all eternity... This is His eternal Sonship. So using that phrase as identical that anyone could be the son of man is not only a bad interpretation but its unbiblical. In the verse in Psalms "I said you are gods, all of you children of the Most High ..this is a Psalm strictly speaking of Justices who stand before God who is the Judge over the Judges of this earth. God has existed through all eternity and from one generation to another. God orders these authorities ... mainly talking about the Justices in opposing them for their lack of good decision making. Why does God reorder every thing to work out according to His judgements? Because every bad decision of the courts of this earth is to withhold protection to the poor and the helpless. Gods order of dignity and respect is His sovereign ability to turn evil and destruction into good. He does not depend upon the rulers of this world to bring about real justice. But God raises up one ruler and brings another down. God turns the power structures upside down for the purpose of protecting the poor and helpless. In God courts is His absolute ability to turn a society upside down in order to protect the most vulnerable. What we think is injustice from our view as too what should be done to make things rite is not how God views what is just. So we see that God is able to thwart the decisions of the courts of this earth in order to undue the power structures of this world for the purpose of speaking for those who cannot speak for themselves.     Reply Quote Notify

824  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: December 08, 2012, 01:24:42 PM There is a spiritual dimension that is called the heaven lies. I dont think its necessarily a location. The bible says to set your affections on things above.. not on the things of this earth. So we have a responsibility to understand like our eyes are opened to these spiritual realities. That we do not fight against flesh and blood but against principalities and spiritual forces in the heavenly realms. This is growing in wisdom.. knowing how to pray...being aware of the forces that are driving our culture. This is praying in wisdom. But we are not using a spiritual tool as if it was doing all the work. We are involved in hand to hand combat with spiritual forces. And so we are talking about engaging in behavior that the world would think was foolish and worthless. We are talking about being involved in a battle with our own desires to overcome the opposition. If we do not have a stake in this battle then we would not consider it a good use of our time. And part of this battle is to hold our ground. But this is very hard to do when the world is moving farther and farther away from God. I mean in our culture. And as we hold our ground we experience more and more of an opposition. But we must advance. How do we advance? How do we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ so that we will not over a long period of time withdraw from this opposition? We must understand that this involves our personal desires. The bible describes a revealed word as a word of salvation. This is Gods word as a final declaration that everything in this world is moving toward renewal and His glory. But God has given us a battle plan to overcome as we are involved in His battle. God is opposing anything that is destructive. God has cursed the wicked and this earth. But the wicked curse God. And you see this in the story of Balaam. The wicked wanting God to curse Balaam but God cursing the wicked. So we see that God ultimately puts out of His way .. all opposition. I will continue with this and try to draw it back to the discussion.    Reply Quote Notify

825	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures	on: December 08, 2012, 11:39:49 AM
I think i understand what he is trying to say...but there is a big distinction here.. get back at this.    826  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The finality of forgiveness on: December 07, 2012, 04:15:31 PM Quote from: beacon2 on November 19, 2012, 05:40:59 PM Yes MBG, the gospel is not a theory.  It isn't abstract reasoning or speculation.  Our Lord was very specific when He spoke to Nicodemus and the Samaritan woman.  It doesn't get any plainer than that. John 3:14-15 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.  NIV b2 This typology is abstract. You have a vision of the cross by an actual serpent put at the top of the pole for the purpose of healing the people. It could be a play on the Asherah pole. A ruling deity. Instead of the people being judged for their sin .. possibly from the bite of the serpent ...that judgement was placed on Christ by our Father. As the ultimate Judge the declaration comes down to those who look to Christ as not guilty. Christ rules over all other gods. Reply Quote Notify 827  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Overcoming evil with good on: December 07, 2012, 03:36:38 PM Quote from: Gouda on December 04, 2012, 11:03:51 PM Quote from: mbg According to these swings is what we describe in the form of a testimony. One mans freedom may be considered in another part of history another mans prison. And so we must always start with a clear understanding that God is both near and far. Or God is both knowable and mysterious. The point is that if God were to show us Himself as He is in His glory then we would be consumed in that freedom. But, what do you do, MBG, with the people who deny any mystery being attached to knowing God? They have formulas and theories and multiple verse-searches to prove that the people who allow for mysteries are just fools and rebels and apostates? I dont mind being accused of being counted among that number, but I worry about those who are less mature in the faith. Someone will have to answer for the damage they do there, but they are so convinced of their holiness and their calling, that they don't see it at all. Yes Gouda its puzzling. Because this is absolutely essential in understanding our own purpose in this life. Which involves a definition of all of our dispositions. And in this change from one glory to another it is because we understand freedom by how we view God. I acknowledge that we are becoming more and more like Jesus but its not exactly a person to person transference as much as knowing what it is to be in Christ. Christ is not just locally existent in heaven as a human but He is the eternal God. Its God coming down. Its the Holy Spirit coming down. Its the presence of the eternal God dwelling in us. So its really not trying to get through the circumstances of life that defines our growing but its seeing beyond the physical. And we are required to trust in things we do not see. So all of this definition of Gods mysterious work in our lives stands on His total sovereign rule over every square inch of this universe. We are not trusting in something that is invisible that does not exist but we are trusting in a Person who has already accomplished everything that needs to be accomplished whether its blessing or cursing so that it is finished. Everything is absolutely true as to how it or they stand in relation to Christ.    Reply Quote Notify 828  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Overcoming evil with good on: December 04, 2012, 09:12:41 PM Ive thought about this prison experience in light of how the Psalms describe it. Ive come to the conclusion that a prison is a lack of understanding by the level of our conversion. This is the history of redemption. There are high points and low points. According to these swings is what we describe in the form of a testimony. One mans freedom may be considered in another part of history another mans prison. And so we must always start with a clear understanding that God is both near and far. Or God is both knowable and mysterious. The point is that if God were to show us Himself as He is in His glory then we would be consumed in that freedom. So we must always understand that our relationship to God is always God coming to us. Because the absolute freedom that is ever experienced in this world is to see God or if God comes then all is free. And this is why we have the picture of men who are encumbered by this world. The bible describes men as being weighted down by the cares of this world. Why is it so important to not cross the line of Gods presence and our experience of freedom? Because God compares His presence as compared to man as love is as far apart from hate. So we must begin with a very low standard of getting along in this world. To try to get going in this world is experiencing the weight of sin that forms the hearts of men who design the world to be en-cumbersome. So there are levels according to how evil society becomes. As i have been saying that the christain experience is both common and extra ordinary. We can live according to the vision of God. That is things we see are not as they really are according to Gods vision. This is why I believe that one of the components of freedom is to experience the mystery of God. To be drawn out of oneself and lifted up to the beatific vision of God. So we are always seeking a level of success that the world does not understand.       Reply Quote Notify 829  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Woodstock and Dead Sea Scroll Connections on: December 04, 2012, 08:45:23 PM The bible uses words to describe a vision. The truths are spiritual truths. Comparing spiritual truths with spiritual things. But the temptation is to divide the bible up so that we dumb it down. Basically its taking spiritual truths an making principles to follow with them. And I have always questioned the idea of the use of application to be in the context of how to. The bible is a tool to use. And the more we use it the more we understand spiritual truths. Milk is for babies but the meat is for those who through much use have trained themselves to see God. And this is why there is an artistic science in understanding how to interpret the bible. Because the bible describes the total man. Just like there is a description of heaven as a picture that we have in our minds so there is a description of the meta physical part of man as a picture of man. This is how the narrative in the ot is to be understood. It must be interpreted as a history of redemption. We have a vision of heaven that is to be understood in the context of the whole of scripture. Because scripture does not change in the use of its language. All of the language us Trinitarian language. So we look at a description not as if it was made up in the mind of man but as it comes from a source that is eternal. The words are put together so that they are connected.. and they are unified as a body of words. So the words give us a picture of man in this world as he responds to his culture and circumstances. But the bible gives us a picture of the part of man that we cannot see with our physical eyes.   Not only are we required to interpret the vision of heaven in the context of the bible but we are required to understand the picture of man as he really is in his thinking. So that all of the descriptions of Gods providence in this world as He responds from the heavens and as men act according to their nature is that Trinitarian explanation that gives us the proper understanding of the purposes in a narrative that may not be directly discussed. The more we have a understanding of all of scripture the better we will be at interpreting the words of scripture.  Reply Quote Notify 830  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritually dead on: December 02, 2012, 04:34:32 PM Willis its interesting that Pauls teaching here is really a personal testimony. Look at the sins he list other than irreligious... but to a Jew a false prophet is the same thing as irreligious. Its funny that all of these sins that Paul pointed to are sins that he committed prior to the Damascus experience. And this is the argument at the end where he says that he is the chief of sinners that gives teeth in his opening his sins up to the world in his former life.  It also magnify s Gods mercy and grace by showing that the prophet chosen of God to take the gospel to the whole world actually did these things. Its a display of Gods unlimited patience to use such a man. Reply Quote Notify 831  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Woodstock and Dead Sea Scroll Connections on: December 02, 2012, 03:28:56 PM I was not saying that George was an orthodox christian. I simply was drawing parallels to my own life and the tendencies to be trusting in the word rather than the Person. A lot of people go to the scriptures for various reason that have nothing to do with a personal encounter or coming to the conclusion out of a sense of other that these things are too wonderful for us to understand. There are a lot of things in the christian experience that we do not understand. Reply Quote Notify 832  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Woodstock and Dead Sea Scroll Connections on: December 02, 2012, 01:58:03 PM If you ever get a chance watch the George Harrison Living in the Material world DVD. I loved it. George was very gifted at writing music as well as playing. Ive never seen a person so focused on appreciating the artistic abilities in other people. I believe that one of the good aspects of Georges life was that he would not accept that life was just about punching a clock. George was one of those guys who could not get enough of life. He had that presence about him. But my appreciation of his life was how much he focused on one thing. I do not even think it was the Krishna that what motivated him but it was finding the mystical experience in the music. He attached Krishna to it because its a mystical religion. George could sing all day long and every day. I appreciate his unwillingness to live life without trying to experience joy and appreciation of the gifts that are expressed through music. George was a very serious artist. Reply Quote Notify 833  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritually dead on: December 02, 2012, 01:12:08 AM Quote from: 1Prince on December 02, 2012, 12:36:29 AM Quote from: mybigGod link=topic=16444. msg264382#msg264382 date=1354425320 cont.   Our salvation does not really start with out decision but in God acting towards us.  In that while we were still in our sins, Christ acted by dieing for us.  Its not according to what we did that saved us but its according to His great mercy.  Which is a nt word for the ot teaching of  salvation being gifted to us through Gods unfailing love.  When we look at the nuts and bolts of salvation it is described as a free gift of grace given to us by Gods great abundance. . .  not just His mercy or His grace but His "abundant" mercy and grace.  Its overflowing . . .  or its a stream that is poured out into our hearts that produces in us a thankfulness from a deep seated joy.  Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God.  The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God. Whoever belongs to the truth hears my voice. It is written; "The words of the upright save them but the speech of the wicked are a deadly ambush. " "By your words you'll be forgiven or by your words you'll be condemned. " "It is the spirit that gives life the flesh is useless the words I spoke to you are spirit and life. " "Let the man who has my words speak my words and speak the truth. " "Speak the truth to one another, judge justly and let honesty and peace be at your gate. " Anyone who drinks the water I give him shall never become thirsty, the water I give him will be like a fountain inside him rising up to provide eternal life. The man who wants to come to me will hear my words and put them to use. Follow me and proclaim the kingdom of God then your treasure will be great in the kingdom of your heavenly Father. The bible describes Gods invisible parts in concepts. So God who is a spirit who is eternal and everywhere present is separate from those things He creates. So God shows Himself through His revealed word.This is what the bible calls the word of salvation. Its Gods revelation of Himself as a covenant keeping God. No one accepts Gods word without a spiritual understanding of Gods description of Himself in covenant. This revelation of God is compared to His word being purified seven times. Its tried and tested and is the only word that saves man. God has proven Himself faithful to His covenant by doing the work necessary to prove His word of promise. It is finished. But men are born as sinners who ...sin is missing the mark... or its like a branch that is crooked. We think of it in word form.. its man devising evil schemes by speaking falsely about God or miss representing themselves. So the bible says that men are born with deceit in their hearts and it comes out in their plans. They seek after idols. Or men place value on dead things that only God deserves. So men worship the created thing rather than the Creator. The bible describes men in sin as their thoughts are futile ...always going astray. So any thought that is not agreeable to revealed thoughts are destructive. This is what missing the mark is a picture of. Men sin in their thoughts long before they act wickedly. God must implant His word in man in order for man to begin to think thoughts after God.  Reply Quote Notify 834  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: I am He as you are He as you are Me... on: December 02, 2012, 12:49:04 AM "Father, the hour has come.  Give glory to your son, so that your son may glorify you, just as you gave him authority over all people, so that he may give eternal life to all you gave him.   " I do not know why you passed up the main point of Christ high priestly prayer.. and then you highlighted the further explanation. Here Christ is saying that every person who believes in Him was given to Him by the Father. So salvation is in God alone. The Father sent the Son into the world to obtain salvation for those the Father elected and gave to the Son. Then He describe this union that His elect have with the Trinity in the Son. Because we are identified with Christ who is God then we are united to God in this Trinitarian relationship between the Father Son and Spirit..in Christ. Christ has obtain salvation and brings us to the Father. So Christ says .. if you have seen me then you have seen the Father. No one is saved by a lesser love than a Fathers love. This is why our true identity is understood.. not in a hierarchy sense through earthly fathers but we actually are loved by our heavenly Father as the bases of our identity. This means that we must confess my soul finds rest in God alone..my salvation comes from Him... He only..alone is my rock and my salvation...i will never be shaken... my salvation and honor depend on God. This is a confession and then we have a further pronounced blessing as the Psalmist consoles Himself saying..." find rest oh my soul in God ALONE!!" Chiding himself. What is he saying here? That its easy for us to look to other things to save us. And this is what Christ is praying to His Father on our behalf... knowing that His own disciples were gonna face their own tribulation in Christ going the way of the cross and their sense of abandonment. He was really saying in the understanding of the love between the Father and the Son and the Spirit.. let them have a deep conversion to this love. This love is an expression of the union of the Trinity. That all things are ordered by God according to the order of the Divine Trinity. Creation is imaged as God going it alone and working alone. The Father is showing His love for the Son in working all things for His glory to place all things under the rule of Christ. So in a sense we experience divine love when we are converted to a deeper understanding of God imaging Christ to us so that everything is worked out for our good even our sin. God is recreating us to be like His Son.   Reply Quote Notify 835  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritually dead on: December 02, 2012, 12:15:20 AM cont.  Our salvation does not really start with out decision but in God acting towards us. In that while we were still in our sins, Christ acted by dieing for us. Its not according to what we did that saved us but its according to His great mercy. Which is a nt word for the ot teaching of  salvation being gifted to us through Gods unfailing love. When we look at the nuts and bolts of salvation it is described as a free gift of grace given to us by Gods great abundance... not just His mercy or His grace but His "abundant" mercy and grace. Its overflowing ... or its a stream that is poured out into our hearts that produces in us a thankfulness from a deep seated joy. This is way of grace is described as our only confidence in God. If there is any confidence in what we do then it is a strike against our confidence in God. Which is fuel for our own sorrow. When we think of God it is in the context of His pleasure to work everything for His glory. Our salvation is out of His pleasure. That is He not only gifts it to us but He promises to complete it in us according to His work that was accomplished in order for us to possess the full effects of it. So God in revealing to us our salvation explains Himself as always faithful, always long suffering.. always kind..full of grace and love. Why does God describe Himself when we want to experience the effects of our salvation? Because salvation is all of grace. This means that God gives it to us for free. God must prove Himself true in order for us to have confidence that in experiencing salvation through something that came to us and we did not go out to obtain it. Reply Quote Notify 836  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritually dead on: December 01, 2012, 11:54:32 PM Quote from: 1Prince on November 30, 2012, 10:43:26 PM Quote from: Willis link=topic=16444. msg264358#msg264358 date=1354332560 So you're saying that to avoid condemnation it's all about doing "what is right and just, giving back pledges, restoring stolen goods, living by the statutes that bring life, and doing no wrong"? Where does Ephesians 2:8-9 fit into this works-based salvation? "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. "   Obviously it doesn't line up with the teaching of Jesus and the prophets before Him who Jesus also taught from. Scripture and the Lord have said;  When the righteous turn from their righteousness, and commit iniquity, they shall die for it.  And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it. The son of man says;The man who has faith in me shall do the works I do. The works I do in my Fathers name bear witness for me.  If you do not want to put faith in me then put faith in the works so you will see that the Father lives in me and I in the Father. Righteousness is in the plural... righteous deeds... but " iniquity" is used in the context of a breach of trust. The ot distinguishes between the sins a person commits and the sin nature. Blessed is He whos transgressions are forgiven ..whos sins are covered. Thats plural... speaking of the acts of sins...but then the Psalmist goes on to say... blessed is the man whos "sin" the Lord does not count against him. That is in the singular... which is the sin nature. So in the context is a clear difference between someone doing good deeds which is a plural usage of the word righteous and a person who is intrinsically righteous. This is a very important distinction. The Psalmist goes on to say that the only remedy for sin is free pardon.. or forgiveness through Gods unfailing love. So the difference between doing righteous deeds and being counted righteous is clearly stated in the words used. In Psalm 34 the Psalmist is not really talking about being forgiven for the acts of sin but he goes deeper than this and says that he needs a cleansing so that his sin nature cannot be counted against him. But you must study the text to see him going beyond the outward deeds to the condition of his heart. We must understand that "sins" point to a deeper problem. And when we understand the value of our sins pointing to our condition as sinners then we go farther than thinking of being righteous by what we do and see the impossibility of our changing our condition without Gods free pardon. Its like having leprosy .. the spots show the condition of a deeper problem that cannot be fixed by an outward application of ointment. It can only be cured by God Himself. The bible teaches us imputed righteousness as the reason that we will not commit the sin of apostasy. It never teaches us that our outward deeds keep us from apostasy. I will further explain this way of thinking so we process this in gaining more confidence in grace. Reply Quote Notify 837  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Have We Been Deceived? on: November 30, 2012, 08:00:32 AM The christian life most of the time does not involve complete victory. If you look in the narratives of the OT you will find people having to deal with many sins.. not only their own sin that so easily besets but the sins of others. So it would be very short sighted to expect to go through this life as if sin and evil were gonna be eradicated. Is it possible to have times where we see a clear conversion in a person where there is a dramatic change? Yes ..but in my opinion i do not think to speak of success is to speak of it in the context of deliverance in this day and age. So there is extreme pressure not only from the godless side of this but also from the religious side to speak of deliverance in human transformation. But salvation is experienced in this world in real terms as going from a high experience to a valley experience. We seek God in His mysterious simplicity. The Psalmist says that his heart panted after God. What is this panting? It was a desire to see God. So the Psalmist described the christian experience as seeking to find God as his rock. The Psalmist was giving us a picture of what it is to seek God with our desires. It is like climbing a mountain and when we get up to the top we ascend upon this big rock. So he is saying that our desires become longings. You know what a longing is by experience. You know that when you wanted something and you knew the next day that you were gonna go out and buy that thing you longed for it until you actually purchased it. Why was their the experience of happiness in the longing? Because you knew the value of that thing you were gonna buy... what kind of enjoyment you would receive when you purchased it. So the more you thought about that thing the more you got excited. Why is it that we usually get what we long for? Does we have magnetic powers over things and they are pulled to us through our longings? No but we usually address what we want by establishing goals and we work to get them. But in the christian experience all of these spiritual things are promised to us as a gift. What others do and what we want them to do is experienced as frustration. This is a natural by product of living without an ability to magically control our circumstances. We may be able to have a certain amount of control by how much money we have but we cannot crawl into the minds and hearts of other people and give the the power to do what we want them to do. So we must find our purpose as God created us. Because when we find our purpose we experience success and when we experience success we learn how God recreates this world. And this is what i was talking about when i opened up talking about desires becoming longings. The more we long for God through His word the more we are gonna receive all that God has promised us and the more we are gonna envision the success God is accomplishing in recreating us and our circumstances. Do you know what it is to simply long for God?    Reply Quote Notify 838  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Have We Been Deceived? on: November 26, 2012, 09:19:27 PM I do not think its wrong to be angry or hurt. I believe that this is a burden ... like a weight.. and these weights that we carry around are kind of like gifts .. why? Isnt it part of the equation that your frustration comes out of a sense of a lack of control as well as thinking of the damage that is done and the injustice of the situation? My own personal opinion is that there is more pain in feeling helpless than angry. So this becomes like a circular reasoning.. feel helpless and add to the anger. Some people think that we should not focus on the anger. But i do not think we can have a sense of value unless we create a kind of conviction ... inner confidence by addressing our anger so that we can distinguish between what is rite about it and what just brings us more pain. This is why God has not only described His anger toward the wicked but He has left it for us to know the boundaries so that we will feel secure knowing what He promises to do and being certain that it will be accomplished in the future. So we address our anger toward two goals. One is to recreate the situation by cursing the wicked who desire to destroy the helpless and bring more pain. One of the problems we have in feeling a lack of control is these unanswered questions. They are like dirt of anxiety piled up so that we carry around lingering frustration. But if we address God as we are angry then we unburden the frustration. Its like finding an outlet for your anger in rolling it over to God. And in frustration asking the why questions. The point is that God really is concerned about us. Not necessarily about what is out there. I do not believe that evil and disaster themselves are what cause us to find grace and comfort. But its our reaction to them which involves confidence that we have control by controlling ourselves. This is what is so cool about God. There is no anger ... no pain .. no frustration that is too big for Him. All of it gets consumed in His love and confidence. Youve  got to get to the place where all of this created power is going one way. And this involves focusing on the situation and feeling the effects as we turn it over to God.    Reply Quote Notify 839  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Devil Made me Do it! on: November 26, 2012, 08:53:50 PM Quote from: B.Player on November 26, 2012, 10:00:46 AM As you will recall in 2 Samuel, Absalom the devil-like son of David managed to temporarily take the kingdom away from David. After David returned as king, he said that Sheba, son of Bikri could cause more trouble than Absalom did.  How could anyone cause more trouble than Absalom?  If you think of Absalom as being possessed by Satan the leader and Sheba as being possessed by a more dangerous Satan the physician, then king David's statement starts to make sense. Some people believe that Sheba was related to Saul. But one thing is for sure he was part of Sauls tribe...of which the northern tribes were loyal to.. a withdrawal of support to David. Kind of a sword from Davids adultery. But Sheba was handed over to Joab so the rebellion was snuffed out. But its interesting that David responded to the quarrel between the men of Israel and the men of Judah ..to side with his family of Judah and make it harder for them to make peace so they joined in the same rebellion as Absalom with Sheba. David said the Judahs words prevailed over the men of Israels words. Reply Quote Notify 840  Forums / Main Forum / Re: God is good -- so why is there evil? on: November 26, 2012, 08:12:46 PM Evil is what we think it is. We all have evil tendencies that we pass as not that bad. In some ways we all get on our soap box about certain evils but if we have prospered from other evils we try to lessen the consequences of that evil. So evil is in the context of our own culture and there is no way that we can say that we have loved only good because there are a lot of things that we enjoy that may come to us through someone else s misfortune and unjust treatment. I do not know if we can completely understand justice because we not only are made to compromise by taking part of this culture of evil but we have our own prejudiced built into our sense of evil that is in us. I guess the best way to think about this is to acknowledge that because we do not understand the total context of evil there is a sense in which it is impersonal to us. Which i believe is the difference between how we view evil and how God views it. Because God sees evil in all the thoughts of man and knows them from the beginning of time to the end. So the question is can I trust God in light of the evil around me that He will make it all right even tho it seems that He is turning a blind eye all these injustices? I think this is something that is mysterious about God. How can a God who is all good and who demands retribution seem to be so silent in our lives as we see evil flourishing? I mean to know God is to know ourselves and if we were not disgusted about evil then that is not Godlike. So the question is how does God react to evil? This is where we struggle because we think that God reacts to evil as it is done. And so we presuppose that God is not busy enough along the way. So the question is if God is free according to His way of dealing with evil then why should we be overly concerned that He is gonna be less affected because He is not reacting according to what we think He should? The point is that we really do not understand evil as it really is so we do not understand how God in His perfect anger and justice is free to respond to evil so that we are free to trust His just ways. The point is that God is always quick to act in a just way and He does it with precision and consequence. The only concept that I can think of when i think of Gods just consequences is a curse. Because a curse has no time qualifications. Its Gods final declaration on evil. So if we think of God who is eternal who sees every thing in the present from the beginning to the end we must understand that the curse is timeless as well. Do we really understand the retributive qualities of Gods curse? Its so bad that any other just attempts to qualify sin dwarfs Gods declaration of it. God is so free since He is so far beyond our attempts at justice that we can be sure that we are secure in His response to evil for all eternity.