1201	Forums / Theology Forum / Calvin's Doctrine of the Knowledge of God: Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield	on: May 25, 2012, 09:20:11 PM
The first chapters of Calvin's "Institutes" are taken up with a comprehensive exposition of the sources and guarantee of the knowledge of God and divine things (Book I. chs. i.-ix.). A systematic treatise on the knowledge of God must needs begin with such an exposition; and we require no account of the circumstance that Calvin's treatise begins with it, beyond the systematic character of his mind and the clearness and comprehensiveness of his view. This exposition therefore makes its appearance in the earliest edition of the "Institutes," which attempted "to give a summary of religion in all its parts," redacted in orderly sequence; that is to say, which was intended as a textbook in theology. This was the second edition, published in 1539, which was considered by Calvin to be the first which at all corresponded to its title. In this edition this exposition already stands practically complete. Large insertions were made into it subsequently, by which it was greatly enriched as a detailed exposition and validation of the sources of our knowledge of God; but no modifications were made in its fundamental teaching by these additions, and the ground plan of the exposition as laid down in 1539 was retained unaltered throughout the subsequent development of the treatise. We may observe in the controversies in which Calvin had been engaged between 1536 and 1539 a certain preparation for writing this comprehensive and admirably balanced statement, with its equal repudiation of Romish and Anabaptist error and its high note of assurance in the face of the scepticism of the average man of the world. We may trace in it the fruits of his eager and exhaustive studies prosecuted in the interval, as pastor, professor, and Protestant statesman; and especially of his own ripening thought as he worked more and more into detail his systematic view of the body of truth. But we can attribute to nothing but his theological genius the feat by which he set a compressed apologetical treatise in the forefront of his little book - for the "Institutes" were still in 1539 a little book, although already expanded to more than double the size of their original form (edition of 1536). Thus he not only for the first time supplied the constructive basis for the Reformation movement, but even for the first time in the history of Christian theology drew in outline the plan of a complete structure of Christian Apologetics. For this is the significance in the history of thought of Calvin's exposition of the sources and guarantee of the knowledge of God, which forms the opening topic of his "Institutes." "Thus," says Julius Köstlin, after cursorily surveying the course of the exposition, "there already rises with him an edifice of Christian Apologetics, in its outlines complete (fertig). With it, he stands, already in 1539, unique (einzig) among the Reformers, and among Christian theologians in general up to his day. Only as isolated building-stones can appear in comparison with this, even what Melanchthon, for example, offered in the last elaboration of the Loci with reference to the proofs for the existence of God."2 In point of fact, in Augustine alone among his predecessors do we find anything like the same grasp of the elements of the problem as Calvin here exhibits; and nowhere among his predecessors do we find these elements brought together in a constructive statement of anything like the completeness and systematic balance which he gave to it. At once on its publication, however, Calvin's apologetical construction became the property of universal Christian thought, and it has entered so vitally into Protestant, and especially Reformed, thinking as to appear now-a-days very much a matter of course. It is difficult for us to appreciate its novelty in him or to realize that it is not as native to every Christian mind as it now seems to us the inevitable adjustment of the elements of the problems raised by the Christian revelation. Familiar as it seems, therefore, it is important that we should apprehend it, at least in its outlines, as it lies in its primary statement in Calvin's pages. So only can we appreciate Calvin's genius or estimate what we owe to him. A very brief abstract will probably suffice, however, to bring before us in the first instance the elements of Calvin's thought. These include the postulation of an innate knowledge of God in man, quickened and developed by a very rich manifestation of God in nature and providence, which, however, fails of its proper effect because of man's corruption in sin; so that an objective revelation of God, embodied in the Scriptures, was rendered necessary, and, as well, a subjective operation of the Spirit of God on the heart enabling sinful man to receive this revelation -  by which conjoint divine action, objective and subjective, a true knowledge of God is communicated to the human soul.
Reply Quote Notify

1202  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: May 25, 2012, 09:14:56 PM Let's start with an affirmation of the doctrine of the ontological Trinity, which states that God exists in three persons and one essence. This is a careful way of conveying the following truths: 1) there is only one God; 2) the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God; and 3) the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are different persons. With the possible exception of a couple technical attributes generally ascribed only to one or another person of the Godhead, and which are aspects of the way God exists in three persons, all those attributes native to God's being are shared equally by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In his divine nature, Jesus the Son of God is fully God (John 1:1; Tit. 2:13; 2 Pet. 1:1), possessing all the attributes native to God in his essence, that is, all the attributes that God possesses just because he exists as God. Omniscience and omnipotence are of this category, so that Jesus possesses both, making him equal to the persons of the Father and of the Holy Spirit in knowledge and power. Ra McLaughlin Remove Reply Quote Notify

1203  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Called to Suffer: on: May 25, 2012, 07:10:49 PM This argument is really kooky. Self defense is a doctrine of demons. lol Reply Quote Notify

1204  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Three pre-paid sins? on: May 25, 2012, 08:27:00 AM I think what we are having a miss understanding in the verse that says that some people need to be dealt with in a very tender way and some people need to be pulled out of the fire so to speak. But this verse is taken out of context of Gods work with His people as a Shepherd of His flock. And because of this there have been many people who have suffered at the hands of really mean leaders. But the bible prevents us from thinking in a way in which we create leaders through some artificial and accelerated holy club mentality. And this is why in the ot this shepherd teaching is so important. Because there is a tendency to isolate the nt teaching of leadership from the original intent of how to deal and lead people. And so the gospel is the medicine because the gospel in its original context is a shepherd teaching. We must see that the message is made to develop leaders. And so we have two kinds of dispositions of people in which we develop disciples. The first one is the sensitive nature d individual. These people do not know when they are being pushed beyond their ability. They just are two weak to stand up for themselves and so they need to be led along in wisdom. The purpose of leading people is to strengthen enough and allow them the room to use their gifts in this balance. Got to go will finish this. Very important. Then you have the more dominate personality. And this is where we begin to think in the terms of a greek. Because we have a tendency to do a contradiction here. We will distinguish the kind of grace that is necessary for these different personalities. For the sensitive person we describe a grace that is not as powerful so its the cheap kind of grace. And for the more forceful we describe a more powerful grace. Kind of a grace that confronts the strong person.  But really grace cannot fail. And it cannot be something that is described as a measurement but rather grace is at the bottom.  We dont go to the bottom to get grace. Grace keeps us from going lower than we think. We dont come to the end of ourselves to obtain grace but we look at grace and it takes us from where we are at and lifts us up. The bottom is grace which is our most free experience. At the bottom is a full understanding of who we are in grace. Grace is the answer to our sorrows. Its not the way to understand ourselves better but its to bring us to a new understanding. When we stand we can only stand on grace. When we go down we are raised up by grace. We live in grace. And so both the strong and the weak are made whole by grace. The weak are encouraged to look up and the strong are encouraged to use their strength for the good of others. And so the whole point of Shepherd salvation is to understand that grace is to be lived on and it is to be soaked into us so that we focus on one thing. We glory in one God- Man.   Reply Quote Notify

1205  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Three pre-paid sins? on: May 25, 2012, 03:11:21 AM Im just wondering because i mean your assuming that the story of the adulteress was a story of the way Jesus was presenting the gospel. And for some reason your saying that Jesus presented the gospel to different people in different ways. Im not sure i follow you on that one. But i could say that the story is also presenting the way that authority is used. I mean i could assume that your saying that "dealing with it later" was what these accusers of this women were doing. lol After all they were just carrying out the law. But i guess in my understanding Jesus is addressing in the gospel the way authority is expressed. That would be the reason that He was so kind to this women because she was about to be abused. And i dont think you saying that discipline is abuse but being so vague i could assume anything by what your writing. Reply Quote Notify

1206  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Three pre-paid sins? on: May 24, 2012, 08:39:43 PM Quote from: frog on May 24, 2012, 06:44:37 PM People are held to the accountability they are capable of handling.  Gods the hardest on religious people(David) because they should act better.  People who struggle with sin who are weak are given a "just come home we will deal with your sin later" approach.  Are you different with your children? The second group are the ones Steve Brown is targeting with this book.  The first group dose not need as much attention.  Remember what Jesus said about a doctor only needing to come for the sick? "accountability they are capable of handling." What do you mean by this? I believe that anyone who is taught the truth is accountable whether they have the maturity or not. I believe that God is patient and will give the ability according to the knowledge at some point. And i also believe there is no one who acts on level with their knowledge. I also believe there is value in failing so God teaches us through failure. Our responsibility is to uphold those who are struggling. Its Gods job to change people in His time.   "just come home we will deal with your sin later" approach. Are you comparing David to the way a father deals with a little child? Im confused about this comparison. Because there is a whole lot of difference between a child... knowledge , maturity, independence etc than an adult. This is a very general statement that needs more explanation. "The second group are the ones Steve Brown is targeting with this book." What do you mean by two groups of christians? In my understanding there is only one way for a christian to walk. And the groups in scripture are the weak , the self righteous, and the wicked. God deals with us through grace. There is no cost for grace. The problem is not one of discipline outside of the means but a lack of understanding of our sin, the disciplines of grace and lacking faith. God doesnt change .. He deals with all of His children by condescending to them in His love. God is fully capable of giving ability for what He demands. Where in the gospels is there two groups of christians? I just need a little more support from scripture for this general overview.   Reply Quote Notify

1207  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 24, 2012, 01:44:15 PM B2 you and i are very close to the final view of who we are.I mean i do not mind talking to someone who i think errors on the rite side. I just cant stomach a negative and destructive relationship built on guilt out of worm theology. I know you want a positive outlook. But this is a little too intellectual and from a view that is not relational. And so all of these doctrines are like dispositions that give us a holistic understanding of relationships. I can see a persons area of hardness based upon what that person accepts as biblical truth. All of these doctrines are for the purpose of freeing us both as we look at Christ more and more but also as we enjoy all of the gifts in understanding the purposes of these gifts and the reasons for them. And so Christ has come to us not as a doctrine but from the beginning through progressive revelation. And yet one revelation of who He is overlaps all of the future revealings so that His work is done with His full eternal personal presence. This spiritual connection is through grace through all ages. And the question is how can a sinner stand acceptable before God? And what does this personal experience look like in between two persons? Because we are talking about a real Person being a complete substitute for people. And when we know Christ we not only know Him as that substitute but His substitute defines Him as He walks with us along the way through the Holy Spirit. So the more we learn of His work the more we will know Him as a friend. And this is why a sinner can be in fellowship with a perfect Savior. Because He came as close to identifying with sin so that He could act for us with the purpose of showing us that He cares for us and loves us. There is a sense then that how we define the work will bring us to who we are in the full sense of how we have been created. Because Christ is the light and in His light we see light. Or this relationship and the value of it becomes more clear as the light gets brighter. And this is why we believe that a sinner has a reason to embrace Christ in fellowship because while we were sinners Christ died for us. So the intent of Christ is to be more personal when we are struggling with sin rather than standing aloof. But how did He accomplish this work so that we could have confidence that as we actually struggle with sin and death that Christ is working for our good and our identity with Him is so secure that we need not worry when we sin and we feel as if He has distanced Himself from us?  Well He has done this through a transaction to us. Its so close of an identity and so much more personal than a human relationship because Christ has actually not only done the work but He has declared us righteous by His active obedience and His death on the cross. So that in sense every time we sin He communicates to us and to the world that we are not guilty and that we are His trophies of love. And the way He has done this is to take our sin upon Him and impute His righteousness to us. But He knows we are weak so that He understands that we could not actually have His righteousness because in comparing His standard of law keeping and our standard He would need to lower His standard in order to give us a different image of ourselves to our own hurt. So in declaring us righteous it shows that He has our best interest and that He knows that we are dust. This can turn out into a love story but i will stop here. Reply Quote Notify

1208  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 24, 2012, 12:04:13 PM Some people have a view of faith like this. Here they are like an army preparing for battle and they get this letter from the enemy. Saying.. we have observed your preparation discipline from our drones. Your not loading your gun powder correctly and your bath rooms are dirty. So these moralist begin to focus so much on themselves that the enemy surprises them and takes them captive. The christian life is about being prepared like your engaged against the tactics of the enemy. Know thy enemy. But what we do is fight against each other in how we lead. We are not concerned to identify the evil in the letter but about side issues. lol Reply Quote Notify

1209  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 24, 2012, 11:52:27 AM cont... The christian life is that we died to sin. But the apostle says that we still sin. He concludes that what he does not want to do that is what he does. What does it cause him to do? Give thanks to Christ because it frees him to look at the christian life not being condemned by his sins or stopped but its from point A to point B.  This means that all the purposes we repent for are redeeming purposes. Because we enjoy grace we stand in the state of redemption. This means that there is nothing that can happen to us that God has deemed worthy of defining us. Because God purchased us with a price that is beyond our ability to be sold back to slavery. This is why we cannot really redeem ourselves because our path is a path of redemption that we are on and Christ alone says that He alone will redeem us. So this connects us to word and Spirit having lost a sense of our old self. We forget what we were so that we might focus on the goal of our faith. So that our confession is purposed to add affliction to the wicked. In other words God is more concerned for His name being trampled than for a redeemed person to trip and sin. Because God is at war with the Devil and his children not us. lol. We are caught in this war as being defended by God because God is bound in redeeming us to show Himself faithful. lol And so God is not overly concerned for our sin but that we listen to Him of how important we are as His children. Because our value is connected to the inheritance we receive by our purchased price. This is our new image. Reply Quote Notify

1210  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 24, 2012, 11:26:14 AM Yes i would not want someone to go against their conscience but our consciences can be used for our own sorrow. And in a sense there is a societal conscience so some people who have a sensitive conscience are very susceptible to being used by other people. Let me give you some advice.. learn to think the gospel and dont go with your first instinct because that usually is wrong. Rather we are promised if we meditate on Gods word that we will be successful. So if you not used to thinking Gods words then be very careful about inner voices or some kind of feeling. But to say that we are not fundamentally evil is to be set up to fall. I do not mean that b2 is purposely doing this but if the apostle could conclude after he was enjoying the blessed state of his salvation that he is the chief of sinners then there is something to think about in finding relief in being a real sinner. And this is so important that we begin to see the value of struggling with ongoing sin. Because if we did not know sin we would not know grace. It is so easy for us to feel confident enough to injure other people with our words or how we speak about them and so this problem we have with giving into sin .. a sin that we practice is good for us. Because we are less willing to stand as the judge of another person. And we are more willing to put this into Gods hands. God has covenanted with His people to not treat them according to theirs sins. But to the wicked the end of their sins is a darkened understanding, they have their backs bent over because they have no hope, and they hear the constant threatening of the law so that they die being charged with many eternal crimes. But the righteous who understand as sinners that their lives are in Gods hands know that they will enjoy a more fuller salvation when their sin is ended and God wipes away every tear from their eyes. So we must persevere through our sin and our weakness knowing that God uses our weaknesses for our good. And believing that God will turn our evil and weakness into good. Because faith is believing in things not seen and hoping in things that are spiritual. So we endure our weakness and sin by looking beyond ourselves to the word of salvation. A word that is not defined in its application to us. SO we have ongoing sin but we look to the word of deliverance and we apprehend the promises of God. This is hoping for a new day. Its believing that in the morning God will show His love to us.Its looking for something that is coming to us. Its believing in a full deliverance from pain and misery. Its seeing that all those who oppose us will come trembling from their strong holds. Its having a history in our minds of Gods individual deliverance and knowing when we are experiencing a new deliverance so that we learn the highlight of praise is having the deliverance and seeing God communicate to us of that and then determining to praise Him with a more enlarged heart. Its trying to praise God with more strength than the last time. Is experiencing a kind of euphoric stout heartiness in praising Him for His deliverance. This is what David did when he brought the ark into the city of David. He danced before the Lord after he was exalted to the throne and all the people were standing and praising God. God had brought David to this glorious victory and so David was overjoyed and was full of praise. And in fact David did not do it in the privacy but he had been so victorious that he actually did it rite in the middle of the most busy city. lol He danced in his underwear because he wanted to identify with all the homeless people who were walking the streets.  In other words God caused David to triumph and to public praise. And so if we are always stopping at our sin then the Devil will always hold us back from what God has for us.     Reply Quote Notify

1211  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual Personality Disorder on: May 24, 2012, 10:18:56 AM The fundamental view of life is from a doctrinal view. And so the words and definitions that a person uses are borrowed from the pure truth of this paradigm. So that there is nothing neutral in arguing over the definitions of words. But rather the end of a false doctrine is to oppose the reality of the true and sure word of God. And so we can be sure that anyone who describes what victimization , self reliance, pragmatism, narcissism etc are not words that have true meaning as they stand by themselves but only in relationship to the self. And that relationship is only in identity as we know God. And so the world is a world of victims. Because no one ascends up the success ladder through arguments that prove himself to be not worthy of that position. Rather every word is related to the self image and in turn is formed in such a way that gives the man success. lol So the world is only made up of two groups. Those who understand the truth as it relates to the self and those who are victimized by the ones who create their own victims. Because wisdom is that you cannot separate the words from the image. There are good people who have wisdom that can fall victim to the system of man. And trying to identify Gods people in a society that is turned upside down is almost impossible. This is why it says that for the grace of God even the elect would be deceived. What confuses people is that just because a person says religious words does not mean that he knows the truth. And this is the way it was in Jesus day. The wolves were actually in the temple. And the sheep were actually the ones who did not appear to be sheep. Because we do not believe that any kind of system can cure being a victim. The truth is that nations rise and fall because there is a society turned upside down where the predominate motive is from abusive authority. And so we learn not to trust people according to their position in society whether religious or secular. Because people can be pushed and threatened to look like they have never been saved. And this is what we need to understand that people can be victimized and die as a victim and go to heaven. And people can look religious and good and be the ones who victimize others. And so in a society were we have this dual personality that is predominate it is almost impossible to read Gods purposes as it looks. lol    Remove Reply Quote Notify

1212  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Three pre-paid sins? on: May 24, 2012, 09:42:08 AM Christ preaches the sermon on the mount for the purpose of blessing His people and cursing the religious leaders. Who are His people and who are the religious leaders? The religious leaders where that group of men who studied the Torah meticulously. So well studied where they that they actually had their own commentaries. And in fact they were not only well studied but they were zealous for their position of theology. So zealous that they separated into groups according to their particular position of teaching. Now this is interesting because through all of that study they failed to glorify the person who was standing in front of them of which the whole old testament writings were centered on. lol And yet they were the people who practiced their religion as the examples of the Torah. Who were His sheep? They were the ones described throughout the gospels as the sinners who had no social position. These people were the outcast of society and the lost. So much so that just before Christ was to direct His footsteps toward Jerusalem to be crucified there was an incident that culminated in His providing us with a picture of how He would come again to separate the sheep from the goats. What was this incident? Well you remember it was the woman caught in the act of adultery. Now if i was gonna provide an argument about who was to be my example of my followers i would produce the evidence by showing a moral person who actually practiced what i had preached in my sermon. A great example of purity like Thor. But instead Christ chooses this women who not only cheated on her husband but did it multiple times. And in fact was in a culture where it was impossible to not be taught the Torah. And so Christ separates His people from the Pharisees in this one incident. And the text does not say the former adulterer who received salvation or provide us with an example of the adulterer who left that life style but in fact here is what he said as to the identity of His sheep.Matt 21  28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’ 29 “‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go. 31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Wow so these were the blessed ones Jesus was talking about. Reply Quote Notify

1213  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 23, 2012, 05:42:45 PM     Pass Me Not, O Gentle Savior | Frances J. Crosby Pass me not, O gentle Savior,     Hear my humble cry;     While on others Thou art calling,     Do not pass me by.         Refrain:         Savior, Savior,         Hear my humble cry,         While on others Thou art calling,         Do not pass me by.     Let me at Thy throne of mercy     Find a sweet relief;     Kneeling there in deep contrition,     Help my unbelief.     Trusting only in Thy merit,     Would I seek Thy face;     Heal my wounded, broken spirit,     Save me by Thy grace.     Thou the spring of all my comfort,     More than life to me,     Whom have I on earth beside Thee,     Whom in Heav’n but Thee. Reply Quote Notify

1214  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 23, 2012, 01:31:14 PM I believe in confessing to one another but it is in a very narrow path. Like it is according to advice by a person that someone trusted in a healthy relationship. I do not believe this is by force or manipulation. I believe if we know grace then we will experience freedom in relationships apart from unwise and dangerous abuse. So its really not a neurotic thing. Neurotic confession is just a plague. But when our hearts are opened in relationships then this is the natural thing we practice in that healthy relationship. I am not a guy who believes in producing guilt to make something unnatural happen. This is why Jesus warns about unhealthy relationships because the bible does distinguish between a wholesome loving christian relationship .. and it may not be with everyone in the church but if there is no real reason for attractive qualities in a relationship then there is no reason to counsel someone to pursue that relationship.  This is the full liberty that the gospel affords us in the promise that our curses are lifted ..even family curses .. only in the healthy church relationships that are based upon glorifying God by enjoying Him forever. If someone is using their authority without the connection be very careful. What is promised is not what the end will be. Here is a healthy constraint. Relationship connection before counsel.   Thats why i hope you listen to my grace writing. Because if you walk in this world you must walk circumspectly. What does this mean? It means that for one person who really has a genuine concern there  are 4 others who are really stalkers and thugs. And Jesus was warning that these people will search high and low.. over mountains.. miles and miles of ocean to make you twice the person of hell. lol And so the world is tipped in the favor of abuse and destruction. They will lead you to walk with a limp the rest of your life. But if you keep your head straight ahead and practice speaking the gospel and loving it learning it and living it then you will avoid the evil man who wants to destroy you. Its better to pine away in sorrow by yourself than be subject to the abuse of a self righteous man who is only concerned for his success.  Reply Quote Notify

1215	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins.	on: May 23, 2012, 12:38:24 PM
Ive got to respond to this real world imagination. In the real world men practice destroying their neighbor by accusing them. Men always point out the sins in others but they do not practice the more weightier matters of the law like charity, mercy and kindness. This is exactly what Jesus was saying. The powerful lord it over the poor and the low. And Jesus was saying to them Take the log out of your own eye before you take the spec out of your brothers eye. What is the difference between a log and a spec? It was position.Who can throw around more weight? The more you ascend up the ladder the more hypocrisy you practice. And the more you have one set of rules for you and another for the people who cannot defend themselves. That is the real world my friend.     1216  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 23, 2012, 10:28:38 AM Let me give you the doctrine. Anytime we ask forgiveness it is with the understanding and wisdom of our sin. And so a person may have a very shallow view of sin and practice hypocrisy. Because he only sees forgiveness as a means to an end rather than as a gift for more gifts. Most people think that forgiveness is a means to obtain grace. But grace cannot be offered in response to our acts. If it is then it is not grace. How can Christ reject us if He tells us to come boldly before the throne of grace? What other throne is offered? Is it the throne of responsible behavior? I mean how can we bring something to a throne that is only given for the asking? Now if its a throne of grace then our acceptance is by grace before we go to the throne of grace. Because if grace is what we want then we as sinners cannot be accepted by what we are in order to get something for free. lol Thats not even logical. What does this throne of grace do? If its a throne that only gives gifts then the one who is giving the gift is offering it out of His free love. Otherwise it would not be the rite attitude in the transaction. So its not us who seek the grace but it is He who is seeking us out of His free love as the one who gives it freely. That is what is different from gospel connection and the worlds friendships. Gospel love is God seeking us ... going out and giving grace to the wandering sheep. Not sitting back and waiting. This is why Christ will separate the sheep from the goats. The sheep treated Christ good by meeting the needs of His sheep while the goats sat back and did not actively seek the wandering sheep. So we see that in approaching God that He actually is approaching us with gifts and grace that we could not obtain in the asking.    Reply Quote Notify 1217  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 23, 2012, 09:55:57 AM This is the relationship we have to God according to His sovereign act in giving us grace. This is what David believed in approaching this God. After Adam and Eve sinned all mankind fell into a hopeless state. Now you will not hear this from a liberal reformed guy. But God from before the foundation of the world determined for man to fall into a hopeless state of sin and death. The kind of hopelessness we are talking about is total darkness and God having a rite to destroy man instantly. But God being merciful decided before the foundation of the world to reach down into the hopeless state in which man fell and save those whom He decided to make His trophies of grace. The rest of mankind God allowed to suffer from their own sins and suffer for eternity because of Adams sin. So the only hope for man is God coming to man for no reason other than Gods grace to bring hope to some men. The rest are left in their sins and misery to be cursed for all eternity. For the glory of God. So when we are talking about grace we are saying that it is not a gift that is given in response to the men as they are living in this time sequence but it is for no reason other then God deciding who would receive that grace. And this is the kind of relationship that David enjoyed. He understood how hopeless men are in their sins. And so this led David to a total lack of self confidence because no matter how David viewed himself and his position in this world grace was to him and ill merited favor. Not just a favor but in comparison to David it was given in-spite of his sin and depravity. And this is what grace is pictured as. God sovereign reaching down and picking some for His glory. Upon this understanding of salvation then all of the approaching to God is in this grace and mercy.     Reply Quote Notify 1218  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Without Christ on: May 23, 2012, 08:51:55 AM Let me talk about liberals. A liberal is a person who likes to make the gospel universal. And so they will kind of stand at the door and act as the Holy Spirit. The biggest thing they are concerned about is having a spirit of agreement. And they will look at Jesus teaching as a kind of social message that makes us messengers of a saving message through these beatitudes. So they do not see Jesus proving Himself as the only one who keep these beatitudes but they see His message as a message that we take to the world. But these beatitudes have a view from both sides. They show blessings and cursing s that are beyond human. And we see Jesus talking about forgiveness and turning the other cheek. Then Jesus turns around and condemns and talks about hating men. What Jesus was doing was showing that if we get grace wrong then no matter how we think we are doing what He wants it is impossible to list the attitudes and be acceptable in this understanding of love and hate. Because we have a corrupted view of so that we love out of a sense of self fulfillment or we hate without a clear understanding of righteous indignation. Jesus was confronting the Pharisees who were like the rich man who came and said that he had listed his actions and had kept the law. Then Jesus raised the standard and the man went away into eternal damnation. And Jesus was condemning the actions of the Pharisees who thought they were forgiving but in turning the tables they were condemned for not loving God alone and hating enough. What we need to understand is that if we get these doctrines of grace wrong then it does not matter what we believe about the beatitudes.   Reply Quote Notify 1219  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Asking for forgiveness of sins. on: May 23, 2012, 08:35:01 AM Let me say that i am going to talk about myself. I know people today think that a person who brags about himself does not show christian humility. But for the sake of the poor and abused i will speak on their behalf. But this whole teaching of confession is a side issue. Because there are many people in history who were extremely good at confessing sin. And one of those people was Martin Luther. He believed in order to obtain grace he needed to confess his sin. And i will say that in my early years of the christian experience i was burdened with a very sensitive conscience. I understand how a person can take something that is suppose to be free and focus so much on it that it becomes bondage. Because the conscience is just like any other faculty. It is subject to corruption. And there is no more greater works gospel than to make the conscience the door to receive grace. And so  the gospel is not about people who practice a certain behavior and upon that practice they receive salvation or deliverance. But the gospel itself is the freedom and the medicine that makes us better. And so if we get the gospel wrong then we get grace wrong it matters not how much we confess or sins. Because any other practice outside of an understanding of grace is a cursed practice. You might as well live it up ..party hard and enjoy life. Because there is more freedom in that than a works gospel. This is what Jesus was teaching. A lot of people teach a kind of gospel that is free at first but then it must be earned after the first salvation experience. And ive often wondered how David could speak grace to himself and be so given to praise that he was beside himself. Then you look at the worship in a new testament sense and there is very little of this joy unspeakable and full of glory. I think we have twisted the gospel and made it a message that gives us a kind of balance of worship and life. And this is seen in how weve interpreted the nt teaching of Jesus. I believe Jesus was making a distinction between the person who was a sinner who had no reason to receive that inheritance other than the good gifts of the Father as opposed to the son who was protective of his life and inheritance. I really do not believe these two sons are the same person. I believe Jesus was giving us a clear distinction so that in looking at the life of a believer there is nothing we can see that gives us a reason for them to be given the gift of salvation. And this whole focus is on Jesus giving grace so that we experience complete freedom. So  that if we get grace wrong then everything we believe about Jesus is wrong. And this is the disciple that Jesus was showing as His disciple. It was the sinner who could not claim that he was good enough or had grown enough to show that he deserved salvation. I would say that understanding grace is more important than practicing confession.   Reply Quote Notify 1220  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: May 22, 2012, 12:48:28 PM cont... let me say that His vengeance is more powerful than worrying about the next day. What did He say that the new day is coming when He will return and separate the sheep from the goats. And He said this day because every day after His resurrection is a really really new day. This is the day when His resurrection power was given to all those who believe. Now listen there is a sweet juice from His vengeance. I cant put my finger on it but its the victory we have when we are surrounded by a world gone mad. Now listen we must rise above this confusion. We must get our heads together. We must have one goal. We must have one passion. There is nothing that is preventing Christ from the judgment other than His promise to do it in His time. But we can dwell in His success over evil. We do not need to be over come by anger and hatred. We can squeeze the juice of eternal vengeance. This happened in the old spirituals. Those people suffered under the rules and system of oppression where men just took from them what they wanted. We must learn from them.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 1221  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: May 22, 2012, 12:29:55 PM The christian is a man who is in the Lords army. This army has the commanding forces of the heavens. These forces have eternal power. So there is nothing to compare on this earth that can give us a sense of their level of destructive ability. But they are local and do appear in world events. Maybe we cannot see them but we certainly have a history of destruction of nations. And we have no ability on a large scale to influence world events because we dont have the eternal powers that are necessary to bring down evil nations. But God has order the heavens according to His dwelling in holiness and He will not be mocked. The reason that we believe that God is in heaven is because in living within the universal scale of this evil we experience the culture of it. And so without God we are without hope. But with God we have a commander who orders the world events and has provided us with orders as He has brought us into His army. lol This God who enters time and space fights against the kings of this earth and the Devil himself. Because the prince and power of the air seeks to devour Gods elect. God rules because He is pleased to put all things under Christ feet. This Lord of glory lights up the whole world. He is the Lord Most High. The Lord Most High is the Lord of Glory who rides as a mighty warrior on His chariot on the backs of the Cherubim. This Lord of glory is the Lord of our salvation. He has promised to be present in our day of evil. Because our lives have been given passion by being a soldier in the Lords army we are given a command to subdue the whole earth. The way He has made us successful and over comers is He ask Him to call upon the Lord Most High in the day of evil. These commands are given to us so that the Lord can show the ruling powers that they are just men. Because if they rise to the position of gods then they will destroy Gods elect. This is why we shout these battle cries because our confidence is being shielded in looking to God for Him to be all glorious in the victory.In other words we are only left to fret and worry unless we actively call upon the name of the Lord and wait in expectation for His cherubim. We call this nt music and private prayer. We experience God light as we shout to Him to intervene. I want to talk about these Cherubim and the angel of the Lord. The Persons with more power than an atomic bomb.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 1222  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual Personality Disorder on: May 22, 2012, 11:44:28 AM Let me discuss these personalities that are neurotic and depressing. Because i believe that we have not only been saved from the final pronouncement of the law but from the curses of the law. So in a sense depending upon the level of evil in a society men are only in their rite mind when they experience salvation. But we must distinguish between how we view the world and its being neurotic. Because the world is cursed not only with the inward effects of sin but with a continuous spirit of anxiety and an extreme hate for God. Given the truth in a legal spirit they would gnash their teeth.  But we must understand that God has ordered the world to be glorified through all things. And so sometimes an unbeliever has more understanding and strength than a believer. I mean with very limited abilities. And the other distinction is that we cannot determine who believes and who does not believe. But that is built on a trust in the words of people and not some kind of mystical accusation. So if someone is depressed , anxious, or neurotic then and they express love for God then we are required to treat them as we would want to be treated. With care and support. But in a sense we all receive salvation in a totally blessed state. And then these cursed temptations come back in time. The reason that we confront these cursed dispositions is because we still have sin dwelling in us and we still are in a world that has satan as its father. And so this is kind of like not resisting two equals. But its learning how grace works and then gaining strength to dwell in this blessed state. But this is a moment by moment experience seeing that we enjoyed this full sense of the blessed state in our experiencing our first love but now we must fight to rest in this salvation. And so the most important quality of fighting is learning how through words and examples we are opposed. Wisdom is not different in each situation but it gives us the identifying curse in the situation so that we might be able to avoid that cursed neurosis. And so the blessed disposition is both positive grace and negative fighting. What we need to understand is that we are not necessarily threaten by the words themselves because there are smooth words that are pierce like and arrow. And in fact ive been hurt more by a religious person than a reprobate. So we must understand that everyone swears to their beliefs even if they talk in a practical way. There is no such thing as a philosophy that is not prophetic. There is only two distinct forms of conversations. One is blessed and the other is cursed. What we need to understand is that when we receive this blessed Spirit it turns our world from having our conflict come from the inside out to the outside in. Whatever view we have in this anxiety is learned from this cursed world of sin and corruption. And whatever confusion we have about ourselves is how we apply wisdom mixing the curse with the blessing. And so we must understand that we are completely new and we have gone from a cursed disposition to a blessed on. So that whatever we desire that is mixed with word and Spirit can bring us into a blessed experience. Because its not the condition in our hearts but its knowing our new freedom that is essential. This is why we deal with fear, anxiety,unbelief , and sorrow through learning how to curse this. The neurosis of this world is the predominate disposition of fear, anxiety, unbelief and sorrow etc. So we are dwelling in a world where the curses are like threats. And we must understand that the blessed state is the experience of kindness, tender warmheartedness, love, peace etc. So these two dispositions are sort of like liquids that flow into each other through the vessels they inhabit. But we are in danger if we try to oppose these neurotic dispositions in the flesh. And this is what we must understand. We are not only given the experience of these blessed dispositions but we are promised to be protected like being in a fort. Its Gods protection surrounding us. SO the problem is not one of strength against strength but its being strengthened on the inside to create reality. Now people really get suspicious when i say this. But how can God create a new man in us if we do not know something of this success? How can we experience this blessed state of recreation if we are not involved in it? And yet these same people will insist that the outward action is God and us.        Remove Reply Quote Notify 1223  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Without Christ on: May 22, 2012, 10:18:53 AM cont.... Let me talk about the liberal view. A liberal will view repentance like an armininin. And its interesting because they discuss Calvinism as if its divided. So they do not have a view where what they say is consistent through their whole grace teaching. In other words they say as all two liners say... God is sovereign but. Now Ive been taught to identify these different views and how what is not said is just as important as what is said. So we can know when someone is pulling the wool over our  eyes so to speak. We do not really listen as if the practical was different from the doctrinal but train ourselves to think holistically through the confession so that one part of the confession is not singled out and not connected to the other parts. I am talking about the doctrines of grace. A healthy doctrine is a doctrine that is not divided. Its not necessarily having an understanding of the different parts of the confession but its being able to connect grace through and through. So really its not just trying to say something that everyone can agree on but its providing a distinction so that everyone will know that Calvinism is a distinct message. But a liberal will take a little from this guy and a little from the other guy in what they think balances out the message. Reply Quote Notify 1224  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Without Christ on: May 22, 2012, 10:08:20 AM In the wisdom books the deciding factor that distinguishes between pride and humility is the relationship to Gods covenant. Because Gods covenant is a covenant of grace. Grace is God gifting sinners with all that they need to live a life of godliness. And the way that God does this is through His word or promise. So the basis of our identity has all of the causes in Gods unfailing love or sovereign grace. A covenant of grace is one sided. This means that if God covenants with us then His name is stamped on us so to speak. So that who we are as His covenant people directly affects who He is. We are so closely related to God through His covenant that He has promised to uphold His name in us so that He might be seen as a faithful God. In the NT this concept is in the word "saint." How can God show Himself faithful through a covenant breaker? Because any time we sin we actually act as our own god. Well God does this through His word. He implants His word in us ..the word of grace ... so that when we fail we cannot change the fundamental relationship to God as His name is glorified in us. I mean how can you offend God if all He has given to you is through grace? lol You simply acknowledge that if not for the grace of God there go I. lol This relationship in grace then is fail safe. Because Gods word of which we have been implanted with cannot return void. It will accomplish His will in us. And this word in its definition is His desires implanted in us. Now this is interesting. Because God says that He will implant new desires in us that recreate us into His image. What is interesting is that He does not destroy our facilities but He actually renews them. He renews our desires by His word and Spirit. So that what we desire is what He desires. Now let me explain this a little further. God is not just separated as holy. To image God as just "other" is mysticism. Its kind of like saying that God is separated in how He indwells us. And its also saying that God can only communicate through completely holy people. But God condescends to us and communicates His properties in us. In other words God does not use us as automatons but He actually interacts with our humanity. Our desires are not just from the spiritual perspective but they are interrelated with our flesh or physical wants. Now this is what is interesting. God can recreate us as He has made us different from every other person. He doesnt change our personality or our physical giftedness but He recreates us by bringing us to be whole again. And so when we are talking about this covenant relationship we are talking about a total renovation of the whole man. And we are talking about a direction that cannot be altered. So this is why a righteous man is said to be humble and a wicked man is said to be proud because there is a total salvation and a total depravity of nature.   Reply Quote Notify 1225  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: the way we treat each other on: May 22, 2012, 10:03:13 AM In the wisdom books the deciding factor that distinguishes between pride and humility is the relationship to Gods covenant. Because Gods covenant is a covenant of grace. Grace is God gifting sinners with all that they need to live a life of godliness. And the way that God does this is through His word or promise. So the basis of our identity has all of the causes in Gods unfailing love or sovereign grace. A covenant of grace is one sided. This means that if God covenants with us then His name is stamped on us so to speak. So that who we are as His covenant people directly affects who He is. We are so closely related to God through His covenant that He has promised to uphold His name in us so that He might be seen as a faithful God. In the NT this concept is in the word "saint." How can God show Himself faithful through a covenant breaker? Because any time we sin we actually act as our own god. Well God does this through His word. He implants His word in us ..the word of grace ... so that when we fail we cannot change the fundamental relationship to God as His name is glorified in us. I mean how can you offend God if all He has given to you is through grace? lol You simply acknowledge that if not for the grace of God there go I. lol This relationship in grace then is fail safe. Because Gods word of which we have been implanted with cannot return void. It will accomplish His will in us. And this word in its definition is His desires implanted in us. Now this is interesting. Because God says that He will implant new desires in us that recreate us into His image. What is interesting is that He does not destroy our facilities but He actually renews them. He renews our desires by His word and Spirit. So that what we desire is what He desires. Now let me explain this a little further. God is not just separated as holy. To image God as just other is mysticism. Its kind of like saying that God is separated in how He indwells us. And its also saying that God can only communicate through completely holy people. But God condescends to us and communicates His properties in us. In other words God does not uses us as automatons but He actually interacts with our humanity. Our desires are not just from the spiritual perspective but they are interrelated with our flesh or physical wants. Now this is what is interesting. God can recreate us as He has made us different from every other person. He doesnt change our personality or our physical giftedness but He recreates us by bringing us to be whole again. And so when we are talking about this covenant relationship we are talking about a total renovation of the whole man. And we are talking about a direction that cannot be altered. So this is why a righteous man is said to be humble and a wicked man is said to be proud because there is a total salvation and a total depravity of nature.  Reply Quote Notify 1226  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Evolution vs Intelligent Design - In Search of the Black Cat on: May 22, 2012, 09:32:21 AM Bill ive read where a person who has a heart transplant ..having a foreign heart .. actually feels like the person the heart came out of. And they have the thoughts of the original person... i guess like images of the original persons experience in their minds. Is their like a communication in the dna that produces this kind of experience?  Reply Quote Notify 1227  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The pragmatic counsel...the heresy of this age on: May 21, 2012, 10:53:48 AM Quote from: Lone Arranger on May 21, 2012, 10:39:29 AM Quote I agree Tom. All of us first need to look at ourselves before trying to judge others. And in making that statement we are judging others.  We are saying that "all of us" - not only me, but especially you, need to judge yourself.  In other words we have already judged others (for not looking at themselves) as lacking and have therefore condemned them.  Such is the tricky nature, the inescapable sin nature, of man.  We push it down in one area, and it pops up in another.  Such is utter futility of being good enough by works - we simply are not capable on any level.  Now, since by putting up this post, I have condemned us all as being sinfully judgmental, including myself.  I will close.       I think Bill and I agree but I suspect your accusing us of judging. I dont agree with your assessment. I always protect grace. So i am not judging others but that is Gods job. If you look at my post you will find that i only condemn self righteousness. What have i said about anyone in this personal way? I am simply describing these two opposite poles. Do you agree that grace must be described and given as the basis of our agreement? Remove Reply Quote Notify 1228  Forums / Break Room / Re: hurting those you love on: May 21, 2012, 10:20:14 AM I agree that we should say things to defend our position. But i can only approach a situation by bringing the word of God to bear on that person and in that is my success. Because the word of God is a weapon that we become more and more effective as we learn to apply it in the confidence that it creates success. So there is no situation that we are faced with where there is an absolute guarantee that we will get the response where there is a change in attitude. We may be able to get a compromise but an evil personality is like having spots on a leopard. So we are involved as one who has the power .. what the scripture calls dynamite power to force compliance by creating by our asking God to not let us enter into temptation. Which is our advantage because we have a loving Father who takes up our causes. Just look at the widow who was at a disadvantage who went before the judge and because the judge was tired of her knocking he gave her what she wanted. What Christ is teaching here is that we have a fundamental relationship with our Father that supersedes our earthly relationship of concern.  So Christ is saying that if our earthly fathers gave us gifts upon our asking .. how much more our Heavenly Father. So in this way how we talk to our Father is more important as to what kind of response we get in the situation. Of course there is also the other alternative pragmatic view of process theology.    Reply Quote Notify 1229  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual Personality Disorder on: May 21, 2012, 09:52:58 AM cont What we need to understand is that grace is essential because it provides us with the ability to believe in the word of deliverance. And so our sanctification is a condition that has a source that is beyond our understanding of as we know power. But worm theology is based upon a kind of focus on sin that provides us with a sorrow that creates a constant focus on self denial by self reflection. Its sort of the reformed way of focusing on our belly button. We must understand that a healthy soul is one who curses wrong dispositions. The law does not act as the basis for self affliction. Because the law is an instrument of conquest. The law is an offensive weapon. Its compared by the apostle to the sword that was worn by a soldier going into battle. So it was not an instrument that cut the soldier but it was an instrument of protection and victory. The law is our learned offensive weapon of protection. So the basis of our sanctification is the power of grace in which it becomes our reason for advancing. As the apostle says it was not i who did it but it was the grace that was in me.What the apostle was saying is that the self denial that he focused on was from a supernatural source that provided what the apostle had no ability to do. And so it created this love that was unfeigned. As the apostle says he saw no man according to the flesh. We see that this sanctification was seasoned in grace as the power that could not be imaged as a pragmatic view of holiness but it brought about the soil of advancing with a power beyond the human goal. So that what brought about change was this ability to see beyond the physical and through the eyes of faith advance under the supernatural gifts of God that create something that is to wonderful for us to imagine. Let me say something about cursing as a gift of grace. Cursing a wrong disposition is part of the offensive weapon in the sword. The apostle says Cursed is any one who adds to the gospel. Or cursed are those men who are troubling the Galatians. The apostle was giving us the purpose of the law that superseded the Pharisees purpose.And this is why we enjoy this new relationship with our Father not according to our sin but beyond our sin. And so all of these dispositions we feel as a result of being enlightened by our new eyes that we are sinners are those dispositions that our Father does not create a fertile ground in us. The experience of shame, guilt, sorrow and fear. But rather when we fail it is quickly forgotten. And so we may sin bad one day and think the next day is our time to suffer but we find that He has forgotten that sin and we move beyond our sin. In other words we find grace in cursing our evil dispositions and we advance knowing that what we get grace for the wicked are held to a strict discipline. And in this blessed state we understand His love by  this advantage.         Remove Reply Quote Notify 1230  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual Personality Disorder on: May 21, 2012, 09:38:59 AM Quote from: poppy on May 14, 2012, 10:24:09 AM . My bookmark poppy your the best...bless you my man.