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LA .. just look at it like a relationship or
friendship. If you were to meet someone and what they did was
questionable to you then you would keep at arms length. I know that
churches like to get committed members but i would not make commitments
without first trying to understand how i feel about the relationship. I
know its hard because most churches do not really communicate on a
personal level without some kind of ulterior motive.
But
relationships first are about encouraging each other. Its not fun if
your feeling down because of the kind of worship you see. Ive been doing
this religious thing for a long time and i know how hard it is to find
the rite situation. I try not to be a conspiracy kind of guy but i
believe that the system of religion enforces this sales kind of
relationship. People are not motivated by thinking of the missionary
endeavor ... kind of like a nurse who is in a hospital and all she does
is change bed pans and clean up the messes. Most people want to run a
well oiled machine. There is a lot of glamor in the business of religion
today. Im not trying to blame anyone but its just a culture that makes
us humans weird.
So its difficult to find the level of
commitment in a personal sense because this culture has enforced
professionalism for a few generations now. Its like being in dirty
water. Your not going to come out clean. The only thing we can do is
focus on the gospel of grace and be available to be open when we can. So
if we spent our whole lives fanning our own flames and lived on a level
of being disjointed in a cultural sense i still believe we can achieve a life
that is well pleasing to Him.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Death of the "eternal torture" doctrine
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on: February 12, 2012, 11:53:18 AM
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I think you seriously misunderstand me,MBG.I'm not trying to convince
anyone but myself that this is a God I either want to continue on
with,or decide he's a monster and hightail it away from....
I need more detail why do you think God is a monster? Both sides of this issue do not go that far...are you upset with God?
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1612
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: A Few Sighs from Hell;JOHN BUNYAN
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on: February 12, 2012, 07:16:58 AM
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Verse 23.– 'And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.'
The
former verse speaks only of the departure of the ungodly out of this
life, together with the glorious conduct[12] that the godly have into
the kingdom of their Father. Now our Lord doth show, in this verse,
partly what doth and shall befal to the reprobate after this life is
ended, where he saith, 'And in hell he lifted up his eyes.' That is, the
ungodly, after they depart this life, do lift up their eyes in hell.
From
these words may be observed these things, First. That there is a hell
for souls to be tormented in, when this life is ended. Mark, after he
was dead and buried, 'In hell he lifted up his eyes.' Second. That all
that are ungodly, and do live and die in their sins, so soon as ever
they die, they go into hell: he died and was buried; 'And in hell he
lifted up his eyes.' Third. That some are so fast asleep, and secure in
their sins, that they scarce know well where they are till they come
into hell; and that I gather from these words, 'In hell he lifted up his
eyes.' He was asleep before, but hell makes him lift up his eyes.
[First.]
As I said before, it is evident that there is a hell for souls, yea,
and bodies too, to be tormented in after they depart this life, as is
clear, first, because the Lord Jesus Christ, that cannot lie, did say
that after the sinner was dead and buried, 'In hell he lifted up his
eyes.'
Now if it be objected that by hell is here meant the
grave, that I plainly deny: 1. Because there the body is not sensible of
torment or ease; but in that hell into which the spirits of the damned
depart, they are sensible of torment, and would very willingly be freed
from it, to enjoy ease, which they are sensible of the want of; as is
clearly discovered in this parable, 'Send Lazarus, that he may dip the
tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue.' 2. It is not meant the
grave, but some other place, because the bodies, so long as they lie
there, are not capable of lifting up their eyes, to see the glorious
condition of the children of God, as the souls of the damned do. 'In
hell he lifted up his eyes.' 3. It cannot be the grave, for then it must
follow that the soul was buried there with the body, which cannot stand
with such a dead state as is here mentioned; for he saith, 'The rich
man died'; that is, his soul was separated from his body. 'And in hell
he lifted up his eyes.'
If it be again objected that there is no
hell but in this life; that I do also deny, as I said before: after he
was dead and buried, 'In hell he lifted up his eyes.' And let me tell
thee, O soul, whoever thou art, that if thou close not in savingly with
the Lord Jesus Christ, and lay hold on what he hath done and is doing in
his own person for sinners, thou wilt find such a hell after this life
is ended, that thou wilt not get out of again for ever and ever. And
thou that art wanton, and dost make but a mock at the servants of the
Lord, when they tell thee of the torments of hell, thou wilt find that
when thou departest out of this life, that hell, even the hell which is
after this life, will meet thee in thy journey thither; and will, with
its hellish crew, give thee such a sad salutation that thou wilt not
forget it to all eternity. When that scripture comes to be fulfilled on
thy soul, in Isaiah 14:9, 10, 'Hell from beneath is moved for thee to
meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the
chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the
kings of the nations. All they,' that is, that are in hell, shall say,
'Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?' O
sometimes when I have had but thoughts of going to hell, and consider
the everlastingness of their ruin that fall in thither, it hath stirred
me up rather to seek to the Lord Jesus Christ to deliver me from thence,
than to slight it, and make a mock at it. 'And in hell he lifted up his
eyes.'
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1614
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Commentary on Genesis - Volume 1 J. Calvin
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on: February 12, 2012, 06:49:20 AM
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Here also the impiety of those is refuted who
cavil against Moses, for relating that so short a space of time had
elapsed since the Creation of the World. For they inquire why it had
come so suddenly into the mind of God to create the world; why he had so
long remained inactive in heaven: and thus by sporting with sacred
things they exercise their ingenuity to their own destruction. In the
Tripartite History an answer given by a pious man is recorded, with
which I have always been pleased. For when a certain impure dog was in
this manner pouring ridicule upon God, he retorted, that God had been at
that time by no means inactive because he had been preparing hell for
the captious. But by what seasonings can you restrain the arrogance of
those men to whom sobriety is professedly contemptible and odious? And
certainly they who now so freely exult in finding fault with the
inactivity of God will find, to their own great costs that his power has
been infinite in preparing hell for them. As for ourselves, it ought
not to seem so very absurd that God, satisfied in himself, did not
create a world which he needed not, sooner than he thought good.
Moreover, since his will is the rule of all wisdom, we ought to be
contented with that alone. For Augustine rightly affirms that injustice
is done to God by the Manichaeans, because they demand a cause superior
to his will; and he prudently warns his readers not to push their
inquiries respecting the infinity of duration, any more than respecting
the infinity of space.31 We indeed are not ignorant, that the circuit of
the heavens is finite, and that the earth, like a little globe, is
placed in the center.32 They who take it amiss that the world was not
sooner created, may as well expostulate with God for not having made
innumerable worlds. Yea, since they deem it absurd that many ages should
have passed away without any world at all, they may as well acknowledge
it to be a proof of the great corruption of their own nature, that, in
comparison with the boundless waste which remains empty the heaven and
earth occupy but a small space. But since both the eternity of God’s
existence and the infinity of his glory would prove a twofold labyrinth,
let us content ourselves with modestly desiring to proceed no further
in our inquiries than the Lord, by the guidance and instruction of his
own works, invites us.
Now, in describing the world as a mirror
in which we ought to behold God, I would not be understood to assert,
either that our eyes are sufficiently clear-sighted to discern what the
fabric of heaven and earth represents, or that the knowledge to be hence
attained is sufficient for salvation. And whereas the Lord invites us
to himself by the means of created things, with no other effect than
that of thereby rendering us inexcusable, he has added (as was
necessary) a new remedy, or at least by a new aid, he has assisted the
ignorance of our mind.
For by the
Scripture as our guide and teacher, he not only makes those things plain
which would otherwise escape our notice, but almost compels us to
behold them; as if he had assisted our dull sight with spectacles.33 On this point, (as we have already observed,)
Moses
insists. For if the mute instruction of the heaven and the earth were
sufficient, the teaching of Moses would have been superfluous. This
herald therefore approaches, who excites our attention,
in order that we may perceive ourselves to be placed in this scene, for
the purpose of beholding the glory of God; not indeed to observe them
as mere witnesses but to enjoy all the riches which are here exhibited
as the Lord has ordained and subjected them to our use.
And
he not only declares generally that God is the architect of the world,
but through the whole chain of the history he shows how admirable is His
power, His wisdom, His goodness, and especially His tender solicitude
for the human race.
Besides, since the eternal Word of God is the lively and express image of Himself, he recalls us to this point.
And thus, the assertion of the Apostle is verified, that through no other means than faith can it be understood that the worlds were made by the word of God,
(Hebrews 11:3.) For faith properly proceeds from this, that we being
taught by the ministry of Moses, do not now wander in foolish and
trifling speculations, but contemplate the true and only God in his genuine image.
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1615
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Death of the "eternal torture" doctrine
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on: February 12, 2012, 06:43:11 AM
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Let me ask you a couple things toadbat,if I may? I'm assuming you believe in ET,and ELECTION....
1)
I assume you're mighty confident of your salvation.Am I correct? I
suppose these 2 doctrines are easier to believe as long as you 'know'
you'll avoid being roasted forever!!
2) How are you going to
feel about 'non-elected' loved ones? You're ok with people you care
deeply about being tortured for eternity? Right on!
I'm so sick
and tired of this idea that as 'believers' we are obligated to just go
along with everything we're told,and question nothing because He's
God,and He can do whatever He wants to whomever He wants! We don't get
to find anything repugnant,or twisted,and shouldn't look deeper into
scriptures to find that maybe God isn't who man has painted Him to be
because that would just be overstepping our boundaries as
vile,disgusting,ET deserving little wretches.....right? Whatever-
BO
excuse me for getting in the middle of this..but one thing i do not
understand from your side is the use of guilt and manipulation to get
people to agree with you. How much sorrow for another person will make
them come to Christ? Where does the bible say that we and Christ share
in bringing the unsaved to Christ? How much guilt will make a person
endure relationships that only lead them to be burdened just because
someone has a rule of their making so that we hold to God being a
universal loving God? It would seem to me that if we leave them in Gods
hands then we would not be tempted to pressure anyone with guilt and
sorrow nor would we be tempted to play the Holy Spirit. So i believe
your teaching something that is more destructive than we believe and
teach. Because we have no real price in the advancement of the gospel so
that we feel worthy of its success. As if God needed us. But if God is
sovereign dont you think that His ability that we trust in gives us more
freedom to love the non elect without involving our personal agendas?
Most people who love their lives apart from Christ do not want to be
manipulated by guilt and sales pitches. If your doing this to your own
in Christ then its inconsistent to say you will treat them differently. You
are miss reading what we are about. We want people to come but we
realize we have no power in ourselves to make them what only God can do.
Their problems with guilt and shame are not from us but because they
refuse to bow the knee. Why should we feel a sense of shame because they
refuse? But because of Gods love then we can treat them as we are
assured that of Gods particular love and His promise to judge the
wicked. No one deserves any thing from God. He gives it freely. Its not
His guilt and shame its our own.
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1616
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Commentary on Genesis - Volume 1 J. Calvin
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on: February 11, 2012, 07:20:28 PM
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I now return to the design of Moses, or rather
of the Holy Spirit, who has spoken by his mouth. We know God, who is
himself invisible, only through his works. Therefore, the Apostle
elegantly styles the worlds, τὰ μἡ εχ φαινομένων βλεπόμενα, as if one
should say, “the manifestation of things not apparent,”30 (Hebrews
11:3.) This is the reason why the Lord, that he may invite us to the
knowledge of himself, places the fabric of heaven and earth before our eyes, rendering himself, in a certain manner, manifest in them.
For his eternal power and Godhead (as Paul says) are there exhibited,
(Romans 1:20.) And that declaration of David is most true, that the
heavens, though without a tongue, are yet eloquent heralds of the glory
of God, and that this most beautiful order of nature silently proclaims
his admirable wisdom, (Psalm 19:1.) This is the more diligently to be
observed, because so few pursue the right method of knowing God, while
the greater part adhere to the creatures without any consideration of
the Creator himself.
For men are
commonly subject to these two extremes; namely, that some, forgetful of
God, apply the whole force of their mind to the consideration of nature;
and others, overlooking the works of God, aspire with a foolish and
insane curiosity to inquire into his Essence.
Both labor
in vain. To be so occupied in the investigation of the secrets of
nature, as never to turn the eyes to its Author, is a most perverted
study; and to enjoy everything in nature without acknowledging the
Author of the benefit, is the basest ingratitude. Therefore, they who
assume to be philosophers without Religion, and who, by speculating, so
act as to remove God and all sense of piety far from them, will one day
feel the force of the expression of Paul, related by Luke, that God has
never left himself without witness, (Acts 14:17.) For they shall not be
permitted to escape with impunity because they have been deaf and
insensible to testimonies so illustrious. And, in truth, it is the part
of culpable ignorance, never to see God, who everywhere gives signs of
his presence. But if mockers now escape by their cavils, hereafter their
terrible destruction will bear witness that they were ignorant of God,
only because they were willingly and maliciously blinded. As for those
who proudly soar above the world to seek God in his unveiled essence, it
is impossible but that at length they should entangle themselves in a
multitude of absurd figments. For God — by other means invisible — (as
we have already said) clothes himself, so to speak, with the image of
the world in which he would present himself to our contemplation. They
who will not deign to behold him thus magnificently arrayed in the
incomparable vesture of the heavens and the earth, afterwards suffer the
just punishment of their proud contempt in their own ravings.
Therefore, as soon as the name of God sounds in our ears, or the thought
of him occurs to our minds, let us also clothe him with this most
beautiful ornament; finally, let the world become our school if we
desire rightly to know God.
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1617
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: A Few Sighs from Hell;JOHN BUNYAN
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on: February 10, 2012, 11:11:23 AM
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David had the comfort of this, and speaks it
forth for the comfort of his brethren (Psa 34:7), saying, 'The angel of
the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.'
Mark, the angel of the Lord encampeth round about his children, to
deliver them. From what? From their enemies, of which the devil is not
the least. This is an excellent comfort at any time, to have the holy
angels of God to attend a poor man or woman; but especially it is
comfortable in the time of distress, at the time of death, when the
devils beset the soul with all the power that hell can afford them. But
now it may be, that the glorious angels of God do not appear at the
first, to the view of the soul; nay, rather hell stands before it, and
the devils ready, as if they would carry it thither. But this is the
comfort, the angels do always appear at the last, and will not fail the
soul, but will carry it safe into Abraham's bosom. Ah friends, consider,
here is an ungodly man upon his death- bed, and he hath none to speak
for him, none to speak comfort unto him; but it is not so with the
children of God, for they have the Spirit to comfort them. Here is the
ungodly, and they have no Christ to pray for their safe conduct to
glory; but the saints have an intercessor (John 17:9). Here is the
world, when they die, they have none of the angels of God to attend upon
them; but the saints have their company. In a word, the unconverted
person, when he dieth, he sinks into the bottomless pit; but the saints,
when they die, do ascend with, and by the angels, into Abraham's bosom,
or into unspeakable glory (Luke 23:43).
Again, it is said, that
the rich man when he died was buried or put into the earth; but when the
beggar died, he was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. The one
is a very excellent style, where he saith he was carried by angels into
Abraham's bosom: it denotes the excellent condition of the saints of
God, as I said before; and not only so, but also the preciousness of the
death of the saints in the eyes of the Lord (Psa 116:15). That
after-generations may see how precious in the sight of the Lord the
death of his saints is, when he saith they are carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom.
Thus many times the Lord adorneth the death
and departure of his saints, to hold forth unto after-generations, how
excellent they are in his eyes. It is said of Enoch, that God took him;
of Abraham, that he died in a good old age; of Moses, that the Lord
buried him; of Elijah, that he was taken up into heaven; that the saints
sleep in Jesus; that they die in the Lord; that they rest from their
labour, that their works follow them; that they are under the altar;
that they are with Christ; that they are in light; that they are to come
with the Lord Jesus to judge the world. All which sayings signify thus
much, that to die a saint is very great honour and dignity. But the
ungodly are not so. The rich or ungodly die and are buried; he is
carried from his dwelling to the grave, and there he is buried, hid in
the dust; and his body doth not so fast moulder and come to nought
there, but his name doth stink as fast in the world, as saith the holy
scripture: 'The name of the wicked shall rot' (Prov 10:7). And indeed,
the names of the godly are not in so much honour after their departure,
but the wicked and their names do as much rot. What a dishonour to
posterity was the death of Balaam, Agag, Ahithophel, Haman, Judas,
Herod, with the rest of their companions?
Thus the wicked have
their names written in the earth, and they do perish and rot, and the
name of the saints do cast forth a dainty savour to following
generations; and that the Lord Jesus doth signify where he saith the
godly are 'carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom'; and that the
wicked are nothing worth, where he saith the ungodly die and are buried.
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1618
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Forums / Theology Forum / Commentary on Genesis - Volume 1 J. Calvin
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on: February 10, 2012, 10:55:30 AM
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Argument.
Since the infinite wisdom of
God is displayed in the admirable structure of heaven and earth, it is
absolutely impossible to unfold The History of the Creation of the World
in terms equal to its dignity. For while the measure of our capacity is
too contracted to comprehend things of such magnitude, our tongue is
equally incapable of giving a full and substantial account of them. As
he, however, deserves praise, who, with modesty and reverence, applies
himself to the consideration of the works of God, although he attain
less than might be wished, so, if in this kind of employment, I endeavor
to assist others according to the ability given to me, I trust that my
service will be not less approved by pious men than accepted by God. I
have chosen to premise this, for the sake not only of excusing myself,
but of admonishing my readers, that if they sincerely wish to profit
with me in meditating on the works of God, they must bring with them a
sober, docile, mild, and humble spirit. We see, indeed, the world with
our eyes, we tread the earth with our feet, we touch innumerable kinds
of God’s works with our hands, we inhale a sweet and pleasant fragrance
from herbs and flowers, we enjoy boundless benefits; but in those very
things of which we attain some knowledge, there dwells such an immensity
of divine power, goodness, and wisdom, as absorbs all our senses.
Therefore, let men be satisfied if they obtain only a moderate taste of
them, suited to their capacity. And it becomes us so to press towards
this mark during our whole life, that (even in extreme old age) we shall
not repent of the progress we have made, if only we have advanced ever
so little in our course.
The intention of Moses in beginning his
Book with the creation of the world, is, to render God, as it were,
visible to us in his works. But here presumptuous men rise up, and
scoffingly inquire, whence was this revealed to Moses? They therefore
suppose him to be speaking fabulously of things unknown, because he was
neither a spectator of the events he records, nor had learned the truth
of them by reading. Such is their reasoning; but their dishonesty is
easily exposed.
For if they can
destroy the credit of this history, because it is traced back through a
long series of past ages, let them also prove those prophecies to be
false in which the same history predicts occurrences which did not take
place till many centuries afterwards.
Those things, I
affirm, are clear and obvious, which Moses testifies concerning the
vocation of the Gentiles, the accomplishment of which occurred nearly
two thousand years after his death. Was not he, who by the Spirit
foresaw an event remotely future, and hidden at the time from the
perception of mankind, capable of understanding whether the world was
created by God, especially seeing that he was taught by a Divine Master?
For he does not here put forward divinations of his own, but is the
instrument of the Holy Spirit for the publication of those things which
it was of importance for all men to know. They greatly err in deeming it
absurd that the order of the creation, which had been previously
unknown, should at length have been described and explained by him. For
he does not transmit to memory things before unheard of, but for the
first time consigns to writing facts which the fathers had delivered as
from hand to hand, through a long succession of years, to their
children.
Can we conceive that man was
so placed in the earth as to be ignorant of his own origin, and of the
origin of those things which he enjoyed? No sane person doubts that Adam
was well-instructed respecting them all. Was he indeed afterwards dumb?
Were the holy Patriarchs so ungrateful as to suppress in silence such
necessary instruction?
Did Noah, warned by a divine
judgment so memorable, neglect to transmit it to posterity? Abraham is
expressly honored with this eulogy that he was the teacher and the
master of his family, (Genesis 18:19.) And we know that, long before the
time of Moses, an acquaintance with the covenant into which God had
entered with their fathers was common to the whole people.
When he says that the Israelites were sprung from a holy race, which
God had chosen for himself, he does not propound it as something new,
but only commemorates what all held, what the old men themselves had received from their ancestors, and what, in short, was entirely uncontroverted among them.
Therefore, we ought not to doubt that The Creation of the World, as here described was already known through the ancient and perpetual tradition of the Fathers.
Yet, since nothing is more easy than that the truth of God should be so
corrupted by men, that, in a long succession of time, it should, as it
were, degenerate from itself, it pleased the Lord to commit the history
to writing, for the purpose of preserving its purity. Moses, therefore,
has established the credibility of that doctrine which is contained in
his writings, and which, by the carelessness of men, might otherwise
have been lost.
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1620
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What Sin Is & What Sin Does And it's not free
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on: February 09, 2012, 03:15:06 PM
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Let me talk about these spiritual mystical
forces of different cultures in a variety of teaching that spans from
armininism to Calvinism. Teaching is everything. The more i go along in
my christian life the more i am given to praying the Psalms because i do
not believe that teaching is stagnate but it is experiencing growth
through applied wisdom through the communication of teaching. And i do
not just think that teaching is a word to person motif. But i believe
teaching is a person to word motif as well.
But its the same
kind of mystical forces that follow this teaching on sin. I believe that
all men are kind of like spiritual sin teachers. They have their
particular view of sin and they never grow beyond the word they believe
as to their ongoing sin. I think this is why we are so easily trusting
of our own view of our sins and so judgmental of another guys sins.
Because we trust in images of sin that are mystical.
We think
that bad sins are kind of like if you see smoke there is fire. But the
Pharisaical sins are not like the smoke fire analogy. We do not see
where the good things can lead to all kinds of secret sins. So those
sins are easier to cover up in my opinion. I mean we will react to pure
hate of cursing and yet not see how cursed we are in trusting in our own
righteousness. We will not think self confidence is why we are feel so
hard toward the things of God and yet we will search out our sins until
we destroy ourselves to get to the bottom of the problem. Its just
really difficult to break a habit of mind. It takes being illuminated
and being raised out of oneself so to speak. It takes being in need of
feeling this mystery.
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,
'And I looked and behold a pale horse, and his name that sat on him was
Death, and hell followed with him.' Mark, death doth not come alone to
the ungodly, no, but hell goeth with him. O miserable comforters! O
miserable society! Here comes death and hell unto thee. Death goeth into
thy body, and separates body and soul asunder; hell stands without, as I
may say, to embrace, or rather, to crush thy soul between its
everlasting grinders. Then thy mirth, thy joy, thy sinful delights will
be ended when this comes to pass. Lo it will come. Blessed are all those
that through Christ Jesus his merits, by faith, do escape these
soul-murdering companions. 'And in hell he lifted up his eyes.'
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