2116	Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness	on: September 15, 2011, 02:02:13 PM
Quote from: Kings_kid on September 15, 2011, 02:00:16 PM Yes, in other words, as we fall in more love with Him we want to keep His Commandments, in trusting dependence on Him, instead of relying on ourselves which always leads to destruction. No... God has His people those who fear Him and He will not let them choose what He has not decreed them to choose. He remains faithful when we are not. Only when God is faithful to the end are we able to endure to the end.
Reply Quote Notify

2117  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: September 15, 2011, 01:58:28 PM Evil is not just an individual disease. But there comes a time when evil is like a giant wave that comes upon the land and washes away everything thing in its path. What i am saying is that when a sin is engrained in a society then it even infects Gods people! But for the covenant love of God even the elect would be deceived! These are the conditions we live in. Evil is like an army that threatens God church and they fall under its crushing blow. I laugh at all of these claims that some of the religious people make. We have made this better or we can do this. lol. Listen... even Elijah could not see a righteous person in that society. The seven thousand did not appear to Elijah to be Gods people. This is a day when things are really messed up. People are forced to make compromises they would not normally make. This infects all of the weak people. I marvel at how blind we are to what is really happening. But we must not be deceived. This is a cursed world. There are real enemies out to destroy our souls. There are spirits that bring us into a kind of soul deception ... not from the inside but from the mass trends of oppression in this society. We must become vigilante in our prayers. Have you ever shouted to the Lord as if you will fighting the spiritual evil ....shout it out... Strike them with terror Oh Jehovah... Let not man rule!! Let them know they are just men!!!  Fight the good fight!!! Remove Reply Quote Notify

2118  Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness on: September 15, 2011, 01:31:25 PM Gods covenant people by circumcision of the heart hear the Shepherds voice. So they are caught in between the promise of blessings and the troubles brought on by the wicked. This is living in the fear of God. First because God calls His people through an irrevocable call. They are called by God to salvation. In response to Gods call they are given a single desire to as the motif of true belief in which they experience this call in having new spiritual senses. So salvation is going from a state of death in which they have no ability to please God or respond to Gods love ... to a state in which they call upon God daily. Now then ... we are led along by grace because we hear God calling us to Himself. We hear the Shepherds voice. But the wicked are not so. They trust in their own ways. They do not call on the name of the Lord. Instead ..because they have no fear of God they do not see the danger in devising their own plans and schemes. Instead of their hearts turned toward the Shepherd. They say in their hearts God does not see.. God is silent.. He will not call me to account. The wicked devise their own plans because they do not have God in all of their thoughts. The righteous meditate on Gods word day and nite and they are like a tree by the streams of living water. They hear the voice of the Shepherd and He leads them into the streams of living water. The Lamb at the center of the throne will spread His tent over them... they will find only one place of safety.. only one refuge. Its starts with the call to come away to see God. No longer will there be any more weeping for He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.  The righteous experience trouble on this earth and they call on the Name of the Lord. Because God has promised to love His people according to His own Name then the righteous experience a sense of desperation in being in between blessing and the threats of the wicked. The wicked have Satan as their father. They have hearts that are bent on destroying Gods people. But when the poor and the oppressed experience the violence of the schemes of the wicked then they are given the illumination to call upon God for deliverance. This is what the covenant motif is. Its the mind of Christ being formed in His people through looking unto Christ for their salvation. Not only a future salvation but a deliverance from the schemes of evil men. Now then God must judge a nation where every man does what is rite in their own eyes because they have turned away from the ways of God and followed deceiving spirits. When the foundations are being destroyed what can the righteous do? The response of the Psalmist in his desperation is that God is still on His throne. Now listen to me . Desperate times for Gods people are a blessing. Even tho we do not depart from the Lord in good times we do get a little relaxed in our faith and we lose a bit of the joy and pleasure experienced in looking for our God. So this is the reality of this world. The righteous man knows the times. He knows by faith the terrible conditions of a society that has been uprooted of its foundations. What does this man experience? He experiences a natural distance in his relationship because the evil in the society gets so bad that it affects the people in the community of faith. The weak begin to fall and show signs of unfaithfulness . Now a man who fears God lives in the reality that the times are beyond his own remedies. So this man who lives in the real world has prayers that are desperate. What does this righteous man pray?... Awake oh LORD!.. Why do You sleep?... Arouse yourself! ..do not reject us forever... why do you hide Your face and forget our misery and oppression?... Rise Up and Help Us!.... Redeem us because of Your unfailing love!! Have you ever been so helpless that you begin to press God?... to call upon God... to shout out your cries to God? Have you ever been so desperate that you find strength to call on God day and nite? To argue to Him to show His promises.. to be faithful in His love? Then you have not experience a salvation that looks beyond the troubles of this world.     Reply Quote Notify

2119  Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness on: September 14, 2011, 05:18:01 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on September 14, 2011, 03:23:29 PM Quote from: 1Sinner on September 14, 2011, 11:55:16 AM Quote We all struggle as if sin and our human weakness are mixed . I understand that because I've prayed for forgiveness for things I had nothing to do with as a member of humankind.  So much awful happens.  We recoil in dismay, and that's when I've prayed for forgiveness.  It seems someone needs to.   Have you seen the prayer Daniel said for himself and his people?  Though he is one of the very few people in the Bible who displayed no obvious outward sin, Daniel, still aware of his own sinful nature. identified with his people, and prayed for their forgiveness, including his own.  Here it is from Chapter 9 for those who haven't read it in a while. ======= "Then I set my face toward the Lord God to make request by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes.  And I prayed to (YHWH) the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, Who keeps His Covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His Commandments, we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land.  O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You. O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You.  To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. We have not obeyed the voice of the LORD (YHWH) our God, to walk in His Laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your Law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.  And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem. As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the LORD (YHWH) our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your Truth.  Therefore (YHWH) the LORD has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the LORD (YHWH) our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice.  And now, O Lord our God, Who brought Your people out of the land of egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly! O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us.  Now therefore, our God, hear the prayer of Your servant, and his supplications, and for the Lord’s sake cause Your face to shine on Your Sanctuary, which is desolate. O my God, incline Your ear and hear; open Your eyes and see our desolations, and the city which is called by Your name; for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies.  O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, listen and act! Do not delay for Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.” ======= K_k:  Of course, in Christ, by His Cross, we have that forgiveness and the "shame of face" has been lifted by His mercy. Now now Kk Salvation has always been by grace alone...through faith alone ... in Christ alone. They were looking forward to the coming Redeemer because He alone will redeem His people from their sins. What Daniel is praying here is a for the Nation of Israel. Gods elect people were dispersed along with the rebellious Nation. In Romans the apostle says that not all Israel are Israel. 9  16 But not all the Israelite accepted the good news.The apostle then says that God had a remnant within the nation of Israel that did not bow the knew to other gods...2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:(National) 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[z] You see how Elijah distinguished himself from those who were enemies of God within the Nation of Isreal? Then God tells him there are 7000 more in the Nation that are like Elijah. 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself(foreknowledge is to know before hand) seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[aa] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. Salvation is God extending His love in covenant as a gift to show that He alone is faithful,  grace and works do not mix. Here Daniel is praying on behalf of a dispersed Nation for repentance and returning to God. The reason He includes himself is because Daniel is acting as a go between and is an Israelite himself. Reply Quote Notify

2120  Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness on: September 14, 2011, 12:12:29 PM thank you this has been a very good back and forth. Reply Quote Notify

2121  Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness on: September 14, 2011, 12:04:35 PM Quote from: 1Sinner on September 14, 2011, 11:55:16 AM Quote We all struggle as if sin and our human weakness are mixed . I understand that because I've prayed for forgiveness for things I had nothing to do with as a member of humankind.  So much awful happens.  We recoil in dismay, and that's when I've prayed for forgiveness.  It seems someone needs to.  I see what your saying but that is mixed with me. I believe that Hes more focused on His sheep than on what they can do in the world. So God wants us to feel genuinely angry and afraid as a natural response to the problems. Remember this we are more susceptible to being unsocial out of a lack of honesty before God than our need to prove that we love others before Him. If we acknowledge our deep frustration then we will be more free to be what He wants us to be in the world. We really are not good at the religious stuff when we come to Him.  Reply Quote Notify

2122  Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness on: September 14, 2011, 11:48:17 AM Quote from: 1Sinner on September 14, 2011, 11:34:29 AM Something began to dawn on my yesterday.  I think the video on Youtube might have had something to do with it.   And that is that it may actually be wrong of me not to forgive myself. As Christians we wear regret like a badge of honor.  It's understandable since it's impossible to repent without regretting what we have done.  But holding on to regret and self punishment year after year and never letting go, I'm beginning to see, is like having a shameful communicable disease, and refusing to take penicillin for it.  It's not the disease that makes us acceptable.  It's the cure.  And the cure is, once having repented, accepting that it all has been paid for in our behalf. I hope I'm stating this well.  It seems almost morally wrong not to accept what Christ has done and forgive ourselves as, with God's help, we also forgive others. Lord, forgive me my trespasses as I forgive those who have trespassed against me; and help me to accept that you have, and to therefor truly forgive myself.         We struggle with regrets because we have sin and sin brings guilt. Its just a fact of life. But i believe that all of us are very weak. Not necessarily defining every sin and guilt as deserving of our holding on. We all struggle as if sin and our human weakness are mixed . And let me say this that God doesnt look at our negatives on one side and our positives on the other. Hes before us to prove that He loves us. So what God wants is what we want. Most christians i know like sin because its pleasurable but the pain it brings they do not want. Do you know that God loves for us to say.. Hey God i enjoyed that sin but God i want to please you more. I want to enjoy your company more than my sin. This brings God as our Father to look at us like dust and with compassion. The way we learn to be weak is to see how God deals with us in coming down to our level and communicating His love at that level. Weve got to understand that God leads off with love. He answers all of our needs before He responds with His strength and power. Christ is the Rose of Sharon... the great shepherd.. the great Physician.. etc. Whatever we need Christ responds perfectly to fit that need. What does He ask of us? To acknowledge that He deserves our praise. But the most attractive response we hear from our great Shepherd is that if we are in need thats all He desires to show that He loves us. He only wants us to ask.    Reply Quote Notify

2123  Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness on: September 14, 2011, 11:28:07 AM My antenna goes up when people talk about how someone controls them or they choose once for all to do something and their issue is behind them. My own view of myself is not to trust to much in my own good achievements. The truth is that if it was left up to me to forgive everyone then i must acknowledge that i am a failure. To say that i have no potential to be at odds with someone to the point where it controls me is way too serious and just impossible to live continuously in that way. And its not really being honest with my own propensity to fail. This is why i dont trust myself and so i take the position that i am ready to forgive others as a general attitude. But i do not give up all of my self protection in order to prove that i am at a new level rest and peace with myself. But what we are required to trust in is Christ alone. So even if we never forgive enough to feel that we do not have the anger that rises up in the memory of the wrong... His forgiveness is still good enough for me to accept that there are some things that i cannot come to terms with but He still accepts me any way. Now here i think is the problem. We want a solution because we feel weighted down by a bad memory. So we experience a burden like a big weight from the anger and the hurt. The first thing we need to understand is that Christ is looking at our natural response to abuse. Hes not looking at us as if we were any less acceptable because we are angry. I think one of the problems we have is that we do not see God as we see our best friend. But we think that God wants us to do certain things so that He can change us.. replace the anger with love... but Hes different than other people that we talk to because He is holy and therefore He doesnt allow us to get away with our sin like other sinners deal with us. We feel comfortable .. so we dont consider they are offended because they deal with the sins we do. Let me say this... Gods not interested in our trying to do something to get something from Him. Hes more interested in us being more comfortable in His presence than our friends. God wants us to talk to Him about our anger and problems with other people more than He wants us to confess that we are angry or hateful as its a sin. The big problem religious people have about God is they want to act a certain way in order to prove they deserve Gods favor. But God does not require us to act a certain way.  He wants us to come to Him as we never get it rite. We always struggle with people pulling our strings. We always get upset about things we should not get upset about . And God is most pleased when we come to Him with other sins we do over and over again.  A lot of people think that God does not like us to complain. God doesnt like us to act hurt and in need. Or that God is distant because of the way we have been living. But if we fail and we grow to like our sin so that we are tired of the people ..who are christians and we dont go to church for a while then God will make us really miserable and make us run ten laps. But God is most available for people who are always straying. He sees exactly what we are doing. Hes not surprised or troubled by our distance. He would love for us to tell Him what we are going through and we need Him to help us. In fact if we come to Him as we are .. no matter what we look like to the people around us ... we are more real than even those who are always doing the religious stuff. God wants us to be who we are. He wants to make us free not good.   Reply Quote Notify

2124  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: September 14, 2011, 10:18:43 AM First let me say that most of our problems come from wrong thinking. Now we are not automatons. We cant just act the problem away. Human problems are not like systematic problems. For instance in a system we focus on the process. So in order for us to achieve our goal we need to write out steps that we need to accomplish in order to create our product. But when we are talking about healing a human soul we distinguish between our corporal parts and our invisible parts. What i am saying is that problems of the mind do not necessarily enter through our bodies or five senses but they form in the invisible personality. The reason that we must look beyond the process of work mentality is that these problems involve our emotions and faculties .. ie mind and will also. You ever tried to fix emotions? Try defining them and bringing them under our own power through some work we do. Thats laughable. Let me say that work and depression are not really related. I mean there are ways to dull the depression through medication and work but this only gives us an indirect way of dealing with something that is invisible. Some people focus on human relationships.  But this also is defining the emotional state in terms of looking to other people as to how we feel about ourselves. You practice this long enough and you create the art of second guessing yourselves. The point being is there is no horizontal relationship that can reach down into our souls and put a healing balm on the emotional state of our mind.  What ever we do to find relief is what we should do as a habit. We believe that the bible has the answers as the only available wisdom for the habitual process of creating healing. Biblical counseling starts with illumination. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2125  Forums / Break Room / Re: Forgiveness on: September 14, 2011, 09:48:21 AM Let me offer a different perspective on this. I believe the first thing we need to do when we apply the gospel to any situation is to approach the subject of forgiveness in any situation.. no matter how hard the abuse was ... with focusing on Gods forgiveness of us. There is only one relationship where we fully trust that no matter how we offend God we still cannot alienate ourselves from His grace or favor. This is why when David approached God in confession that David focused on His offense to God. Against you alone have i sinned and done what is evil in your site. The point being that forgiveness that is received through grace is from God alone. First we have received forgiveness when we were regenerated and we received the Holy Spirit. This forgiveness cannot be added to. Its always the same no matter how much we sin. The reason that we do not focus primarily on other people is because there is only one place where our sins are not counted. In other words in order for us to put our faith into practice...in order for us to apply the forgiveness that we received from God we must believe that God does not remember our sins. If we are to believe in the full and free forgiveness in Christ then we must put all of our confidence that He finished the work of doing away with the anger toward our sins in reconciling us to Christ so that we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. To fundamentally believe that we receive forgiveness from one another is not believing that Christ work is enough. This is why on the human level forgiveness is not the same. Look at ps 51. David committed adultery and murder.. what did he say? Against God alone did David sin. Look at the apostle Paul. He concluded after obtaining grace from Christ that the apostle was innocent of the blood of all men. Now that is a bold statement there. How do you think the people who were personally involved with those who the apostle had put to death felt about that statement? Well in looking at a few applications that scripture makes about forgiveness on a human level there is no one way of dealing with this issue. This issue of application is not a universal one size fits all. We must always deal on a personal level with someone in which we bring healing to that person rather than focusing on what works. As i have stated before most of the application in this life is in the form of counseling and that is in the motif of advice of other sinners so in the end its left up between us and the Holy Spirit. Gods time table is not like ours. What i am saying is .. you do not need to work on forgiveness.. just accept that its only found in Jesus and its free. Now dealing with the anger is how God sanctifies us as we roll it over to Him. You will never get the the forgiveness you are looking for from someone else. But you can find a balance about any situation as your learn to put all of it in His hands. This takes the rite focus. Thanks for this thread.. i will write some more about this and offer a little different perspective than our cultural one.     Reply Quote Notify

2126  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How do YOU KNOW you're saved??? on: September 13, 2011, 07:31:49 AM I agree Joker... its important for us not to stand in condemnation of those who have said they are saved. We are not the ultimate judge. So our responsibility is to lead someone as much as they will listen. God never said that the sheep would be separated from the goats where the sheep hang out. So when we have sheep and goats mixed... we obviously cant figer.. my joke it out. Theres nothing wrong with warning someone but not in an accusative way. This life is very messy. Remember that we live in a community where the ones who know they are sinners practice grace as a way to get better. Remember that Jesus said its not the healthy that need grace but its the sick. And He said to bring all the lame, the broken, the adulterers , the weak, and the blow hard s into the temple. So the community of faith is seeing a work of God that we cant figure out. The saying goes like this.. Christians are the ones who shoot their own. Why is this? Because when you get religion you can become really weird. Thats why we need to have relationships with real sinners. Cause we need to be reminded about how hard it is to be free of our own self righteousness. When we become christians we do not graduate into a community that has all the ducks lined up and put in place but we become vulnerable knowing that we cannot fail because we place all our trust in Christ.   Reply Quote Notify

2127  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The secondary lie: full independence from God on: September 12, 2011, 04:21:08 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on September 11, 2011, 07:14:10 PM Quote from: mybigGod on September 11, 2011, 02:16:16 PM As i said Kks logic amazes me. Christ punishment for our sins was not annihilation but the most painful and spiritually destructive that is unimaginable. Because Christ had to pay the penalty of every elect person in His suffering.  And yet Kk talks about the punishment of the wicked as the process of annihilation as proof that God does not change. lol.   K_k:  Christ died to pay the penalty for our sins, all our sins.  And the lost will die the Second Death, for their sins, since they reject His unending Life.  Jesus wasn't tortured forever to pay the payment for our sins, since "the wages of sin is death", not unending torture. Yes, God does not change.  He promised Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they rebelled and they did.  He promises us the lost will be given the Second Death for their rebellion unless they turn to Him for the reconciliation we have in Christ.  And they will die. Not be kept alive to suffer eternally -- just a simple punishment of death which will last forever, with no more reviving or resurrecting, just destruction. Recall that the perfect Law of God had no provisions for torture, but the highest penalty was the death penalty.  Elimination is the necessary end to sin and sinners in the End, not the prolonging of sin and sinners forever.  Too bad you can't see His logic, and His compassion. Another one of Kks logical inferences. He looks to the law to bring compassion rather than the real compassion the comes from the actual suffering of a person. That compassion of Gods goodness seen in His work of Christ on behalf of His elect. The defense of His elect is equal to the suffering He endured to bring them to heaven. That defense is seen in the punishment of the wicked for all eternity. A real defense not a personality adjustment. Reply Quote Notify

2128  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Psalms study... on: September 12, 2011, 04:14:25 PM Quote from: poppy on September 12, 2011, 10:56:27 AM Thanks mbG My pleasure Poppy... Ps 32 is full of the support of imputed righteousness if you just look at the grammar and the words. In this case the english translation does not do it justice. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2129  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: September 12, 2011, 03:37:49 PM Ive heard this about praying so much and not hearing from God. Now heres the truth. We must draw a line in the sand if we want to mix faith with our prayers because we need handles to grab onto when we grow faint. Prayer is absolutely necessary if we are to grow in our faith. We cannot withstand the assaults of the Devil in our own reasoning. The Pslamist says... when all men, things, and my own heart fails me, i am left to hope in your word. Now listen to me. We may waste away but our prayers keep us looking to His word. The line we draw in the sand is if we hear others saying to us,...if we hear our own hearts say to us..." He trust in the Lord.. Let the Lord rescue him"...then we have defined those voices as unreasonable who encourage us to faithless prayers. Pray is not just the words we say. But prayer is a position we take in the battle. We hold our position.. we fight in prayer. We are like Moses who as long as he had his arms up Israel won.. when He put them down Israel began to lose. Prayer is like an adventure of going into a country and taking the territory. In this world there are spiritual forces who hold men in their schemes. Prayer unleashes the forces of heaven to take that territory one prayer at a time. People do not think that suffering and pain is for other purposes other than what we think our circumstances are before our eyes .Pain comes to get our minds off of the real spiritual focus. Prayer is going beyond our own circumstances and taking heaven by the hand and dragging it to the earth. When we look at prayer as a means to win the battle then we will experience heaven on earth when we pray. The apostle thought it much better to be with Christ because He experienced a little of heaven to know it was better. lol.Prayer is fighting through our sin, faithlessness, flesh, the voice of our accusers, the men who say it cant be done, the closest people to us who are not in the battle... so that we get to the cause where the property of the devil is attacked. Its taking spiritual territory in our world. We do not fight against personality profiles or men who have worldly power but we fight against the one who pulls the strings. We do not fight against flesh and blood even tho we may need to over run flesh and blood to get to the source. But we fight against spiritual forces in the heaven lies. Listen to me.. Prayer is violent and destructive. Its not a romantic novel. lol.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

2130	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election	on: September 12, 2011, 02:57:21 PM
Quote from: Kings_kid on September 11, 2011, 07:45:42 PM mbG:  "Obviously here God cannot be sovereign and man sovereign in the same choice. That is the ultimate contradiction." K_k:  The error here is thinking that because God allows us to make choices that this makes us sovereign instead of God.  No, our Dad is always sovereign. He is sovereign over satan yet allows satan to choose to rebel against Him.  He is sovereign over sinful mankind, yet allows us to make choices as to whether or not we will be one with Him, or oppose Him to the End. He wants our will free to love and serve Him.  He could always, if He so desired, just force everyone to believe in Him -- it would be easy to reveal Himself in a way that could not be denied or resisted.  But that is not what perfect love does. Instead, He attracts us, draws us, enlightens us, convicts us, while giving us the ability to resist and reject Him as long as we so choose.  And many would rather die the final Death than live with Him forever, just as they will be allowed to choose -- even though He would rather take on human form and die than live without us forever. mbG:  "If God is not free to choose who He wants then we are really not free. Someone needs to step down off the stage and let God be God. To hold to libertarian free will is to believe a contradiction." K_k:  God is perfectly free to choose who He wants to save, and He chooses to save those who can become willing to choose His unending Life in Christ, without any forcing or coercing by Him.  He doesn't want "praise and worship robots" that He has dominated into salvation, but beloved children who have freely chosen to love and serve Him, forever. To hold a deterministic view of God's selection process is to deny the glory of God to make us free, in Him.  And to miss the heart of the definition of perfect love. Determinism is dependent on how we define man. Man did at one point determine his own course. We know that mans self determination is an imaginary world that does not see the heavens or have a connection to the glory of God. Mans determination is imaginary because he imagines that the physical things of this earth have human qualities. All of the things of this earth are dying. The earth is a place of death. Mans reality is that the things of this earth are really living not just intrinsically but man gives eternal life to dead things. This is why man will suffer in the second death because he refuses to look beyond this earth to where God dwells. Because man makes living things out of dead things then he will be like the idol he makes. Instead of seeing the reality of life man will follow his own imagination and will suffer the quality of lifeless existence as the idol he makes. Man lives in the imagination of his own mind.. this is determinism.  God defines, chooses, and creates reality. There is no other option. There is only really one real Man. All other men are like dust compared to Christ. All reality is in this one Man. We are made with a self image as we look to other things as the measure of who we are. We were made to look outside of ourselves to know ourselves. This is why Christ is the image of God. Because Christ is the exact replica of the Father. When we see the image of Christ we see the Father. Christ not only is God but Christ shows us God. This is why Christ is the only way to the Father because He is the only image of self that is reality that we understand ourselves by Him. Unless we see Christ then we will believe in the deterministic man. An idol of our own imagination.          131  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Three Dimensional Reality on: September 12, 2011, 02:29:23 PM Let me give a reflection of the self before God in this third dimension. When we look to God its like our souls rising up in God. Obviously God is other so in this sense He is different from us even tho He inhabits that same space as we do. We can say in this sense God has a figure. Otherwise we would believe that God is us and all the physical parts of this universe. lol. But we are in no way like God as corrupted sinners. We may have the Godhead dwelling in us but we are not intrinsically completed as righteous. We have the righteousness of Christ. So in a personal sense Christ stands as the person who has substituted Himself on our behalf. We always look at ourselves as wicked in order that we might not be guilty of taking something from Christ that does not belong to us. This is why we have full acceptance as sinners. Because we never can justify ourselves , but we always are in need of Someone else to defend us at His expense. Our only requirement is to acknowledge our total dependence on Christ because we are wicked. But this is not just a doctrinal thesis on justification and our future perfection. But our corruption is purely painful. This is one of the reasons we approach God as we are. Because we experience corruption as if we were pierced through with an arrow. We were shot through with a g un. We know corruption because we have personal pain. Now some of us have a very high pain threshold. Some of us like me are weak naturally and do not endure pain well. This is why I like David so much. He was like glass on the inside. When we experience corruption we experience pain and then we know that God who is everywhere has not at the moment taken our pain and replaced it with peace and joy. So we are always mix pain with pleasure. We never have a time where there is pain absent of some kind of pleasure.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2132  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: September 12, 2011, 02:04:05 PM cat...Addiction is anything we attribute to ourselves that is not true because we want protection.  This is why our thinking as sinners is always unbearable. We cannot get out of this flesh and we cant escape our sin. Ive never been addicted to drugs as a way to enjoy the good feelings. But the more i seek out my own sinfulness the more i see the impossibility of getting a hold of it in a behavioral sense. Sin is much deeper and more powerful than we can imagine. It infects not only our behavior but it makes creates an evil personality that is woven in our own natural way of expressing ourselves. Its woven in our own personality. Sometimes He gives me a glimpse of how evil I am, not in the sense of doing something that we would consider a big sin, but its something its whatever causes me to be desperate and not being able to fix myself enough in the situation to respond at that moment with an attractive attribute. If there is anyone who has spent most of their lives examining their own evil tendencies it is me. I will admit that ive learned not to search too much. In fact as i get older i am thankful that He has protected me from seeing the depths of my sin as He sees me. I am aware that theres enough of my own fleshly powers that would rise up in me and destroy me. Ive been to that place and it was the most awful experience of mental pain that could be wished on anyone. I spent three yrs crying out to God to remove that experience. He gave me relief. Im glad I dont have to deal with something in myself like the apostle Paul had to. Its good that God deals with us all in different ways. This is why in dealing with such mental anguish a long time ago, i was taught that God not only controls the way we believe but He controls the amount of temptation that we are going to experience. The problem with being a sinner is that we do not have any perfect attributes that we can point out as an example and say that is the standard. So instead of focusing on how much we get better i try to focus on Him keeping me from getting to active in my christian life. So ive learned its better to ask Him than to try to work harder. You know what? Ive found a secret. Its when i come to Him... not as if im the best carpenter or the most spiritual person..or the best companion ...but its i come knowing that He knows me better than i know myself... He has the power to instantly give me a makeover that would transform my life in a second and He can create me new without trying to make me different than other sinners. Now thats a lot of acceptance.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 2133  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Psalms study... on: September 11, 2011, 05:12:36 PM 32 the Justified   the Sanctified     Trouble        Deliverance        Promise        Injunction     Trouble        Deliverance The Justified   The Sanctified Maschil..giving instruction. This is the first of 13 maschil psalms 32 42 44 45etc some in each book except book 4... public instruction ...to look at...scrutinise, to look well into anything..hence the noun will mean understanding...and for understanding ...OE verb to skill Psalm gives the basis of all true instruction and understanding. to play skillfully ... seems trivial in comparison with such instruction as this. blessed...how happy Rom 4 7 8 the beatitudes of the Psalms.. to bless barek....ashrey.. happinesses .It is the plural of majesty or accumulation, and means O t he happiness. or O the great happiness. ... or how happy he ... left to be supplied by anyone who has this experience. transgressions... breaking away..rebellion referring to thought. revolt, rebellion, sin against lawful authority. in Prov 10 12 the action of love or mercy shown stands in strong contrast to this character of sin. forgiven ... taken up or carried away sin...erring transgression to miss the mark...to stumble and fall...coming short, blameworthiness..not necessarily willful...act of thought, word, or deed, not a condition. covered... atoned by the death and merit of a substitution sacrifice. man....mankind in general...without the article. with the article ...adam... man the Lord.. Jehovah imputeth ...the Lord sees no iniquity attached to those who believe what He has spoken... through holy men of God and in these last days... by His Son. iniquity ... sin in the nature , rather than breaches of the law in act.. perverseness.. never eradicated. to be bent or crooked...wrung out of course... spirit.. invisible characteristics of man kept silent... confession... adultery murder. roaring.. not yet articulate confession. hand.. anthropopatheia... is..was into....some codices with Aram.. read like. selah.. connecting the trouble of conviction with confession to which it led. to pause .. to lift up. it connects subject matter not tunes. in the middle of verse.. both are two halfs of one truth. I acknowledge.. i made up my mind that i would acknowledge. have i not hid.. did i not hide transgressions.. adultery murder.. some codices have sing. Thou forgavest.. divine forgiveness follows immediately on true confession to Him. Selah... connecting this divine forgiveness with prayer and worship...which can be accepted only from those who have this experience. shall..let godly..man of lovingkindness, who has experienced this Divine grace or favor. in a time...in a time of finding (his need.) floods..fig. hypocatastasis put for time of need in preceding line. or implication.. and implied resemblance or representation. hiding place...jehovah my righteousness 5...my hiding place7 and my guide 8 songs.. shoutings selah....connecting this worship and praise with the further instruction and guidance which such receive. I will instruct.. hence the title maschil fig anabasis.. instruct teach guide shall go .. goest i will guide.. Let me cause mine eye to take counsel concerning thee.. horse..mule prov 26 3 bit..bridle...cp 39 1 lest..otherwise they will not.. come near.. draw near.. for help and instruction so as to understand what they are to do.. to help to draw near.. to make to approach... hence to bring near...in worship the wicked...the lawless one..restless activity of the fallen nature. trusteth.. confideth...to secure without fear... mercy.. loving kindness... grace. Remove Reply Quote Notify 2134  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: September 11, 2011, 03:28:58 PM Grace is only honest when we draw a line and show that no man can obtain grace through his own efforts. If men want an honest explanation of what we fundamentally believe then we must not lie about grace. The nice thing about grace is that if we tell men the truth they will respond positively because God has given every man a desire to seek after God but at the same time they refuse to. So we are reminding them of the potential freedom they know exist. This is the foolishness of the natural man. Grace reminds them they are unworthy which gives them momentarily relief in the deception and pain. Once men understand grace then its easy to talk them down into the depths of sin. God is leading every sinner on a leash. We are able to pull the chains and shorten the leash. lol. Every fool gets caught in his own folly. This is man who thinks he is heading in a successful way only to find that he has been digging his own grave. Listen .. we cannot fail in this fight. They will fall beneath our feet. Its promised to David and his descendents. We have a very valuable asset. We are in a war that is already won and we are just cheering the real characters in this war. We are really encouraging the angels and Gods army to go out before us and be victorious. The greatest understanding that we can have is that we mean very little in the victory. We are only powerful when we are weak and unable. To be weak is not to be abused or passive but to come to the point where we experience the power of God and yet see there is so much mystery that we could not accomplish what He will accomplish through us. Our value is being engaged in this battle. We all have different battle calls. In order for us to continue on in the faith we need to believe that nothing can ultimately stop us. We will march in victory until we obtain victory in heaven. But the fight is not ours to win. It s His. Our history is His victories in our path.In this we cannot fail. Remove Reply Quote Notify 2135  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election on: September 11, 2011, 03:12:59 PM There is only one way of doing things in this life. I dont believe we get second chances. If we screw up its because we have lived in a mindset of contradiction. Contradiction is believing that two of the same paradigms can both take place at the same time in the same relationship. Obviously here God cannot be sovereign and man sovereign in the same choice. That is the ultimate contradiction. Thats like going before God and saying the reason i do not believe is because my wife did not believe. lol.  Weve got to see that everything we hold personal to ourselves is because we believe that God chooses us. If God is not free to choose who He wants then we are really not free. Someone needs to step down off the stage and let God be God. To hold to libertarian free will is to believe a contradiction.  We stand before a God who is God as without hope unless God extends His love to us through His grace...grace being an unmerited favor.. not only not having the value in meeting the requirements but lacking the ability as well. If we believe that we have an ability to choose God in our own selves then we will never believe there are real causes and necessary events in our own history. If God is not free to choose who He will then He is not free to create out of nothing. lol. This is why there is so much confusion. Because we naturally accept a contradiction. So it infects everything we believe and talk about. It effects how we reason about ability and power. If Gods will is not the expression of His power then power of will is expressed in equality on both sides of the equation.Power is then a kind of god in itself. When we divorce power for will we give it human qualities. Not only do we strip God of His power but we do not have a real personal power that gives us a measurement of our own worth.   Reply Quote Notify 2136  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election on: September 11, 2011, 02:33:10 PM Well lets talk about the requirement of a sinner to meet Gods just demands of His law. If we lower our responsibility to God as law breakers then we will naturally make new rules for our children so they will be acceptable before God because we are assured that we believe in God. Its easy for us to conclude that because the people who are closest to us have a genuine faith ...ie we actually read our bibles...pray..and enjoy God that it includes everyone in the family. Its so easy for us to live off of someone elses faith. I mean in a family sense. I think Job did not take anything for granted but it says that He prayed more earnestly for His sons knowing how impossible it was to make them Christians as being known as the most righteous man on the earth at that time. We have a propensity to get this whole salvation process backwards. We focus on all of the character issues of our children and fail to have a personal lively relationship with God as Father. We think the necessary qualities of saving our kids is in our appearance to them. But this is not really true. We live before them no matter how they appear to be faithless as we enjoy and know God as our Father. We must understand that faith is something that is a by product of another Mans work and not ours. In a sense its like a cold.. they will catch it eventually. In my own personal experience i chant psalms in my home. So this is a normal function that my kids and wife experience. I can get pretty expressive. Now heres the thing. Its very easy for us to express joy in the gifts of our kids and wives. But its really difficult to bring the word of God out in the open and to make it applicable. Its easy for us to take a scripture and use it to change our family. Its very difficult for us to actually spend a lot of time having it move us to change how we think we influence our family. I believe that we have a very bad disease.. the closer we get to the religious view of life. We do not really believe that people are separate from us with their own gifts and their own ability to think. Because we do not consider that there is a requirement to view life as having another Person in the house that defines relationship. We usually think of Christ as a verse to paste on the refrigerate.     Reply Quote Notify 2137  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The secondary lie: full independence from God on: September 11, 2011, 02:16:16 PM As i said Kks logic amazes me. Christ punishment for our sins was not annihilation but the most painful and spiritually destructive that is unimaginable. Because Christ had to pay the penalty of every elect person in His suffering.  And yet Kk talks about the punishment of the wicked as the process of annihilation as proof that God does not change. lol.  Reply Quote Notify 2138  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election on: September 11, 2011, 01:59:43 PM I do not think we can treat our children as they belong to God if we do not really believe they are in Gods hands. And this is why its important for us to lift God up because in being confused about Gods rite to chose we may try to force His hand and do things to our children that He never authorized. The bible does not warn fathers of being lenient as much as it warns us of driving them to despair. The apostles admonition.  So we must see that salvation belongs to God. The wrong focus will always lead either to rebellion or leading our children down rabbit trails. Obviously all of us have a different thinking process. We believe that we are responsible for teaching our children a healthy doctrine. Because we know that doctrine will provide them with a proper view of all the relationships that they will encounter as they gain more independence in life. We believe that christian doctrines of grace is logic applied to all of lifes circumstances. A person who has his mind formed by religious philosophy will have an undisciplined mind.Doctrine provides the basis for logical application to all the situations in life. Doctrine not only gives the mind a systematic logic but it provides the mind with the most logical answers and reasons in the application of the circumstances of life. We believe that mans mind is corrupted and not able to think logically as a natural result of being blinded in his imagination to the logical truth in self reflection. How a man describes himself and how he understands God determines his course of life. So we see that if God is not the only one who is able to save our children then we will apply many different pressures in an imaginative way that is only made to inflate our own self importance.   Reply Quote Notify 2139  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: September 10, 2011, 11:59:14 AM We are involved in a war that is defined by terms that are far above and beyond time and space. We have reality ...future reality in its promises to us and knowing the end of all things to be applied to our present day struggles so that we can hope to the end. We cannot fall from this grace that we will see when we meet Him. This is a God centered world. Men go into eternity every minute in the tens of thousands. Gods news reporting of the beginning and the end have already been reported from before the world began. Hes heralded it in the promise to send a redeemer who will take the spoils that are rightfully his. There is no other option than to offer all that we have to Him. God has already cursed man and is working out His judgement in bringing all men under the subjection of Christ. Christ exaltation is the only logical view of royalty. All other royalty is a lie. Throughout all the generations of this world God has decreed the destruction of one generation to another. God will not be mocked. There is no hope for man unless God reaches down and saves man. All men are headed toward destruction. This is why we can say let them vanish away like smoke! God has decreed the judgement of man and there is no one who is able to avoid it. God holds men in contempt and will find them wanting .. He will respond with vengeance and judgement. Men are mere worms who are like a still born child. They will die on the vine of a short life. Who can thwart Gods purposes? Who can say that God is unfaithful in His cursing the ways of men? Who can bring a charge against God allowing the destruction of cities, of whole armies.. of races of people? Who will raise their horns against this God who has crushed men under His power? Now then who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2140  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Re-forming reformed theology on: September 10, 2011, 11:39:31 AM Quote from: Yep on September 09, 2011, 09:18:19 PM  The problem with your theological philosophy is that it only allows for a certain element of God's nature/character while denying another element, (God's holiness and justice) to remain. You pick and choose which characteristic of God is relevant and necessary while negating the other realities of God. That is reforming a view of God that is not true.   Though God is love, God is also holy; though God is gracious, He is also just. Your god is only one way, but does not allow the fulness of God to be intact. Yes .. Yep.. I agree and i do not believe there is a man alive that does not place one truth over another even if he is quote- unquote a professional theologian. This is why no matter who we argue for one truth over another there is no way that we can break the chain of the doctrines of grace. God is the searching light who will apply the doctrines to the heart of man in a way that is not taught on this earth. There are always a group of people who hear the gospel and in asking each person what they were taught they respond with a totally different reasoning than the other person. Because the Holy Spirit and the means of grace overcome the weakness of man. My personal understanding is that all of our personal frustration is related to how we receive the truth. James says its natural for us to view the truth as we look in a mirror and then go away and forget what we look like.lol.  This is why all of the doctrines of grace are the most personal struggle for a healthy outlook in life that a man will ever experience. Because the mirror is not just our reasoning that we do not look like Christ but its our survival in defining our steps along this path. In other words it starts with one thought as a reason to be faithless. When we add up all the thoughts we have in a day and we list them we find that these thoughts are very independent of God. This is why the apostle lauded the Bereans because they put themselves in the best position to grow by soaking themselves in the word of God. Now we have a public life in which we focus on being a high priest for other men. But we have another private life where we find ideas and longings that cannot be uttered. These are the supernatural breaking into the natural. We seek the living God. The apostle says that we set our thoughts on spiritual things.. on things above.. not of the world... and we begin to change by thinking ..feeling... touching...and seeing by illumination a world that is too great for us to imagine. We begin to dwell on all of the long term goals. The apostle said that He would much rather go and be with Christ but He had work to do on this earth. In other words the apostle was not reasoning based upon the word but upon this supernatural reality that was his and was far greater than even his work in the spread of the gospel.. think about that.     Reply Quote Notify 2141  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How do YOU KNOW you're saved??? on: September 10, 2011, 11:10:58 AM I somewhat agree with Thor and believe in reading him now he has come a long way baby. My object in these discussions is to argue for a way of thinking so that no matter what we think is the way of salvation...let me give you some of the reasons that ive come across in my 7 yrs on this site of which i call my home. SB is the best. But one of the arguments about being saved and having an understanding and assurance that we are saved is that we do not believe any dogmatic truths of salvation. A lot of people write a very small dogma of salvation. They say that salvation is by grace and grace equals total mystery. But at the same time they draw a line in the sand and will not afford others the same amount of grace they afford themselves by disagreeing with others that the statement of grace is not really absolutely necessary.lol But my experience in this world is that it is a place where everyone experiences a kind of proselytizing in a system of belief. Man cannot be without a god. First because man has already declared his independence from God by being related to Adam. So man already is born as alienated from all the reality that creates connection in his relationship to all the physical phenomena of the universe. We are born not only into the physical world but we are born in a world of man- god propaganda that is forced upon everyone. This is why the bible goes to the root of the problem by the Holy Spirit exploring areas of the root causes of this deception through casting down imaginations that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God and bring into captivity etc. If we are to engage ourselves in this art form by being bible students then we are involved in a battle for the mind.  We believe the bible is all that we need to live a life of Godliness. So we believe in a foundation that presupposes reality in its fundamental truths of the gospel. We believe that salvation is not just an act whereby God justifies the sinner but it is being given a teacher in the Holy Spirit who searches out the deep things, those things that we are told are too wonderful for us to imagine. We are always led along by teaching. When we sin we look to the inward Teacher... when we are confused about life we look to the inward Teacher... when we face circumstances that are too painful for us ..we look to the Teacher. What is the instrument that the Holy Spirit uses not only as a means of instruction but as a means of comfort and defense? He uses the clear teachings of scripture. So we always come to the foundation of finding all things come together so that we can be assured that our faith is not in vain by simply concluding that when all is lost we stand on His words and promises to us. We do not stand on total mystery.   Reply Quote Notify 2142  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: September 10, 2011, 10:00:42 AM Quote from: Yep on September 09, 2011, 09:20:24 PM MBG:   "God cannot save a man unless He changes him. God must do a complete renovation... "   Please elaborate. As this statement is right now, it is not completely accurate. God saves, then through the Spirit changes Him. He does not change Him, and then save Him. This is not taught in Scripture. Please explain what you are meaning by this statement. We are now the temple in which the Godhead dwells. The christian faith is a defined way of thinking and living. We have no authority outside of scripture. So we say that our lives are formed by an identity that is not understood in this world. We stand alone in God. This is why the apostle in chiding the Galatians church about their confusion of their identity did not approach them with a set of new rules to make them better. What was the word the apostle used?" Who has bewitched you?" What was his argument? Wasnt it reminding them of who they belong to? Wasnt it reminding them of a work already done of which they were not believing? Wasnt he warning them about their propensity to find comfort in their performance?" You began with the Spirit... are you not trying to work it out by the flesh?" Then he says "Who cut in on you and kept you from the goal?" It wasnt just going back to their ceremonial laws but they had forgotten their identity. They had forgotten the kind of work that was done at their salvation. They had forgotten that they looked away from the law to Christ crucified. In looking back to the law they were abandoning their only means of finding confidence in the Spirits work in reminding them of who they were. This is always the way God deals with us in our christian life. God always reforms the way we think and reminds us of who we are so that we learn to think correctly in the future. God has done the work in us and now we must begin to have our minds transformed by renewing them with this focus on Christ in His word. The christian life is not really checking the boxes but its seeing the reality through the trees. Remove Reply Quote Notify 2143  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: September 09, 2011, 06:05:34 PM As ive said in describing process reality as if God was under obligation to somehow over time produce enough mystical force in the process of bringing a person to salvation is to show that God is spending all of His time like a beggar. Let me describe the order of salvation. God calls people through the gospel to salvation. When God calls them then those people respond. How do they respond to the gospel? God cannot save a man unless He changes him. God must do a complete renovation... the bible calls this taking out the stony hard and giving the elect a heart of flesh. Or breathing into a man new life. How does God breath new life into a man? The bible calls this regeneration. God has created all things by the breath of His mouth. We say that when God breathes He speaks all things into existence out nothing. God has spoken in creation and He has spoken in His revealed revelation. If God created all things by the word of His power then He sustains all things by the word of His power. In other words God decrees whatsoever comes to pass. He speaks and all things are made. When a man is regenerated the word of God is like a seed that is implanted in the heart of man. When God calls a man He waters that word and it produces new life. We are made new by the implanted word of God. But God cannot save a man with mans natural inclinations to choose. God cannot share His ability with man but He must produce the willingness for man to seek God. The Psalmist says my heart says... seek His face... Your face Lord I will seek. What is this voice or desire that the Psalmist is talking about? Well.. God must not just change the will but God must destroy the old will and implant a new will in saving of a man.  When a man is regenerated He goes from death to life, from being His own god to willingly desiring God, and from listening to his old nature to responding in faith by his new nature.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2144  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The secondary lie: full independence from God on: September 09, 2011, 05:46:05 PM We must understand that God has His counsel from all eternity as the definition of His establishing this earth. We believe that God is an apoplectic God throughout all generations. In understand how His attributes are establish He provides a kind of reflected authority structure that mirrors the heavenly one. So that all of the beauty is in a single object and that word goes out into time. This is why God declares that in establishing the earth with its gods ...He does not share His glory with any man. So God by example proves that He alone rules in perfect justice. He demands that all rulers kiss the Son. We ask why a nation would be under financial pressure? Our questions must be rooted in how we understand the earth to be established by God. This is why God distinguishes the rulers of this earth from the poor and oppressed. Because God is proven wise by His power to over rule the gods of this earth. So there is always a back drop as a reminder that God is all glorious in His holiness by attributing the financial responsibilities to the gods of this earth and the rich. In other words God holds men in His power ...that power that responds to oppression as the evidence that He is the God of salvation. Reply Quote Notify 2145  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The secondary lie: full independence from God on: September 09, 2011, 05:22:23 PM The result of Adams sin is death. Obviously Adam was not instantly annihilated as in your usage of the word death and destruction.  This is why the bible can describe death as being dead even tho they live. But what gave God the rite to bring all things into corruption as a result of the sin of Adam? Because it was a transgression of the law of God. The sin was a violation of the first and second commandment. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. If sin was defined as a relationship to God equaling life and separation from God equaling annihilation then there would be no purpose for Christ incarnation in which He actively obeyed all of Gods law in order to obtain life for Adams race. In other words Kk seeking to cover over the legal relationship that man has as a requirement to meet his obligation as a free moral agent. But we know this is not the case as we live in this corrupted world. Why would God be lesser in the perfect world? We know that every sin requires a punishment. For each sin there is a consequence. What Kk is saying is that this side of heaven is where God shows His justice and punishment but God is different on the other side. This changes all of the value of the spiritual realities that will be ours in the hope of our salvation in the heavenly kingdom. Kk is turning this upside down. He is saying that those who oppress, destroy, and use their personal resources to indulge their own flesh are let off without punishment in the next world while the saints suffer the results of their own corruption and the oppression of the wicked without any punishment for their crimes against the saints in the judgement. If there is no eternal punishment then there is no value attached to the justice of God as it is seen in the Lamb of God who was slain from the foundation of the world. Gods justice would cease to speak in the exaltation of Christ as having the reminders of His word in His visible scars through all eternity if there were no retribution demanded in  Gods eternal justice. If we truely believe and teach the Trinitarian doctrines of the faith then we must attribute this perfect work that was accomplished in the Trinity as the evidence of all of Gods attributes as the definition of Gods holy standard. To take away the eternal punishment of the wicked is to cheapen the work down to obtain salvation for the elect and in cheapening the work that God has done in His persons we lower all of the value of all that God communicates in that work.