2266	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted	on: July 21, 2011, 10:59:06 AM
Youve got to understand the doctrine of sin leads a person to focus on the consequences of sin and not on the behavioral modification of that sin. Sin is the reality of our experience in a fallen world. This world is fallen so that we do not put confidence in it but rather we look beyond the world to another world where there is no sin. The focus of sin is not to turn our focus to ourselves and how we obey in the performance. But its made to see a direct conflict in this world. The conflict is a stark contrast between the cursed and the bless. Our sin is a blessing because in light of our experiencing the pleasure of sin and the need to understand the reality of our own weakness , we have an instant ability to be changed from partakers of the pleasure of sin to the partakers of the eternal pleasure. We are changing from one glory to another through being in reality rather than changing by overcoming our outward sins. The reality of sin is past even while we experience it in the present. The more we see sin as past the more we will grow from one glory to another. The problems come not when we attempt to focus on our sin but when we focus on how we are related to sin in attempting to get better. We are all sin... God is all holy. When sin meets eternal holiness it does not present a wise way to proceed. lol. It finds a real contrast between the inconsistent pleasure it promises and Gods eternal pleasures. Sin must not only be focused on as past but it must be seen as powerless in being consumed in Gods eternal pleasures. We are not panting away at the table of Gods eternal pleasures .But we eat with the focus that sin is past and it did not offer this kind of pleasure. Sin leads us to understand that the world is a cursed place and we do not experience that curse. It leads us to focus on Gods rite to bring sorrow and pain...death and destruction because we do not have hope that we will avoid sin. We focus on Gods working toward sinners rather than our relationship to God as sinners. Sin brings us to focus on the hopelessness of this world that we do not experience. Paul says that thing in me... he was saying that the cursing of sin was impersonal to him because his enjoyment of the presence of Christ led him to experience sin as a foreign agent that he enjoyed. In other words Paul could not get to the heights of pleasure and glory because sin was always offering enjoyment that could not last. The apostle focused on finding joy in Gods gifts on this earth but longing for the greater joy in heaven. He recognized the impossibility it was to achieve the heights of joy but in enjoying the fruits of this world he saw sin as a pest rather than a hindrance.
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2267  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Treatises on the Eternal Predestination of God : John Calvin on: July 21, 2011, 10:36:25 AM Youve got a Freudian slip here. Calvin is presenting two different arguments in the reality of how the relationship cannot both be the same in the same relationship at the same time. Your disagreeing with him by saying there is no such thing as the law of non contradiction. If God chooses all men by allowing them free choice then its the same thing as saying Gods choice is determined by mans choice and Gods choice. So that is not a sovereign God.lol.  If God is not sovereign then He does not have a rite to declare men guilty. He does not stand as the arbitrator of this fallen world. If God is not sovereign in the cause of the existence of all things then there is something equal in the cause. This means that God does not chose freely whatsoever comes to pass. Your saying that God limits His sovereignty that allows men to chose freely. But responsibility in choice is seen in things we choose not to do. If God allows men free choice then He chooses each time a man chooses to allow that free choice. So mans choice is determined by Gods allowing it. In your view of freedom man would need to be God. As i have said you cant have two Gods in the same choice. That is a contradiction. Its making real persons.... inanimate.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

2268  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The New Reality of the Natural Man on: July 21, 2011, 10:15:47 AM I have a very strange relationship in this world. I have a son who is very handicap. To the point where he does not view himself with an image of himself. But he views his own image through his parents. Because of the physical trauma at birth or before birth the loss of oxygen to his brain has brought about a condition where the circuits of his brain, these normal interaction between pleasure and emotional stability are like an engine that miss fires. His mind is an active enemy. sigh.... So he needs to be on medication or he will hear voices.. see threatening people and have a rage that is uncontrollable. So i have changed a lot of my thinking on how the spiritual and physical interact. Ive seen the most terrible parts of this disease. This is why in my opinion there are physical problems in people that have nothing to do with their spiritual experience such as depression, maniac experiences, voices, in ability to think continuously in a rational way... etc. But this has taught me to not think of myself as if this was connected to my own experience. If you had a person who feeds off of you 24 7 its an experience that changes your view of this world. Insecurity is in my opinion the most painful reality living in the public eye. It causes a person to turn in helplessness to other people in an unhealthy way as the mechanism of fear and sorrow. The physical brain is like a resistant set of currents that gives a person the ability to experience a holistic reality. When the brain is injured these resistant mechanisms are not functioning so there is a lot of disorder in the way a person thinks. There are disorders that are not easy to discern from the physical eye. But i believe there are situations where a person in his mental state is disabled. In other words there is a difference between the normal spiritual struggle and a physical malfunction causing the struggle. I believe that deeper issues and long term problems for a christian are in this disabled category. This is why i distinguish between the path of obedience and the sovereignty of God who alone has the rite to determine the kinds of change that one goes through in his life.        Remove Reply Quote Notify

2269  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Re-forming reformed theology on: July 21, 2011, 09:45:36 AM The old adage there is nothing new under the sun presents the oldest confrontational reality in Reformed theo. This theo answers all other mystical teachings and brings man to an understanding of God and his personal world. From this theology we begin to understand the true value of all things which is the reality of who we are in light of this holistic understanding. The world is only personal to us as it is worked out in the writings of Paul when we apply this doctrine in exegetical study of the scriptures. Adam was created as a free moral agent. He was able to obtain true righteousness in himself through obedience. Adam had no knowledge of evil so that he had no reason to eat of the forbidden fruit. He was not equally susceptible to sin as he lived in the righteousness of God. But when given the choice to obey God ... this mystery of free choice ended when sin entered the world. When Adam fell he not only brought corruption and death into the world but as the federal head of the human race Adams sin was imputed to all of mankind.. his offspring. God imputed sin though Adam to mans account. God from eternity past decreed the sin of Adam. It was a passive decree. The reason that God created the world and man was to show forth His own glory. So God decreed that He alone as both God and man would save the world from sin through Christ death, resurrection and ascension. The Father sent the Son into the world and the Spirit applied this work to the hearts of some men. While at the same time passing over others. God orders everything so that the back drop of corruption would illuminate His greater love. In other words sin is necessary in Gods ordering all things for His purpose to show that God is loving , faithful, long suffering, gentile , kind etc because of His working the good out of evil. God in His wisdom proves His holy attributes in the back drop of sin. He brings man to the knowledge of himself through this mystery. How can a holy God work with such sin and corruption? The only way is to prove that He alone is worthy of praise as man is confounded in his own desires. We are not seeking to be God but we are who He decrees us to be. We are totally dependent on something we cannot completely understand. But we are most happy when we find God. This is why God initiates a new relationship with man through the new birth. God speaks and there is new life. God speaks and the earth is refreshed with rain. God speaks and the great mountains are formed. But Gods most powerful display of His attributes are in the still small voice of salvation. God has given us His spoken word. This word is new every day. We long for the morning because the word creates the new day. From the word comes the renewal of all things until the end. When God gives a men new life that man views the world in brighter colors, sees these things in the back drop of Gods glory. There is a beauty beyond the physical view of the world. There is a communication of the divine through the effervescence of the word of God. The word is a lamp unto our feet. When God renews a man ... He calls that man from death unto life. Its the divine edict. Its the word of life. The word of God is implanted into the soul of man and Gods nature becomes the cause, means and ends of how a man lives. The man lives for God because just like a plant is brought forth in healthy soil... so the word is the soil for the life of God in the soul of man. The words are what we live by because the words cause us to flourish like a plant in that healthy soil. We are not intrinsically righteous but we are implanted with new life.     Reply Quote Notify

2270  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Re-forming reformed theology on: July 21, 2011, 08:58:23 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on July 19, 2011, 10:09:49 PM mbG:  "Kk ... your teaching contradictions. Youve said that we are unable to keep the law but Christ through us keeps the law. Now either we keep the law or He keeps the law... both cant keep the law at the same time in the same relationship. lol." K_k:  There is your fallacy.  We must both "keep the Commandments" at the same time, He in us and we in Him.  By depending on Him for power, ability and understanding, and then choosing to do what He instructs us to do, He then joins us in doing those loving actions which keep the heart, and details, of the perfect Law of love. mbG:  "If as you have been saying that Christ keeps the law through us then its just logical since you have said that we are unable to keep the law that Christ keeps the law. So my logical inference is that i can blame Christ for not keeping the law through me. ... just apply the law of non contradiction." K_k:  We are unable to keep the Law apart from Him, but in Him and through Him, by simple obedience to Him in trusting dependence, He keeps the Law through us and we keep the Law in Him.  So you cannot logically infer that you can blame Christ for not keeping the Law if you do not obey His directions in trusting dependence on Him.  Just apply the law of common sense. mbG:  "Even if we kept 99 percent of the law.. we still are corrupted and subject to death and sinful weakness so it still does not equate to Christ keeping the law perfectly. Its a non issue." K_k:  Yes, we cannot keep any part of the Law of God perfectly, apart from Him.  He designed and intended it that way.  We were created to be fully dependent on Him for His Life and righteousness.  And in Him we will keep His Commandments perfectly and continually, one day.  There will be no sin in the final Kingdom, and sin is breaking His Law. mbG:  "The point is since Christ kept the law ... our being justified by Christ is being declared righteous by His keeping the law.. not our keeping the law.He imputed His righteousness to our account ... we are the law breakers... and our sin was imputed to His account. We are not intrinsically righteous since Christ set the perfect standard of law keeping and to say that we keep the law is to lower His standard. Yours is a contradiction and unbiblical... mine is historically taught ( i might remind you... from people from your libertarian free will side)....and it is logical." K_k:  You have mixed truth with error here.  The truth is that Christ kept the Law of God (His own Law of love) perfectly, and we are justified by His righteousness if we are His.  We do not, and can not, keep the Law in our own power and self-direction because we don't have all knowledge or all goodness apart from Him. He alone is perfect love, and that is what fulfills the Law, both in general and in specifics.  We never lower His standards by depending on Him to keep the Law in and through us, just recognize that we do so imperfectly in this life, even with His help, and will continue to grow up in Him. You haven't substantiated any of your claims to my being unScriptural, just stated your opinion.  If you have some particular verses in His Word to discuss, that would be better than making unsupported accusations. mbG:  "Its like when you were talking about addiction. I said that you chose to take the first drink and all the drinks there after. Then you told me... i do not understand the problems with addicts. At the same time your telling me that its easy to keep the law... not to drink... because Christ keeps the law through me. You disagree with me and agree with me at the same time... lol." K_k:  Another mixture of some truth and some confusion.  I'm not telling you it is easy to keep any part of the Law of God -- in fact it is humanly impossible without Christ.  But with Him living through us, with our obedient and dependent cooperation, He and we, can demonstrate the love of God which is the fulfillment of the Law and the Commandments. “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."  John 17:20-23 K_k:  Part of your confusion is that it is not against the Law to drink, but rather to get drunk. "Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is.  And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit..."  Ephesians 5:17-18 K_k:  And yes, you do not understand the nature of addiction, mbG.  When you really see clearly what Paul said, then you will understand sin addiction better.  But no, i don't both agree with you and disagree at the same time.  Just the latter. Romans 7:15-25 "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.  If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the Law that it is good.  But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.  For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.  Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. "I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.  For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man.  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.  O wretched man that I am!  Who will deliver me from this body of death?  I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! "So then, with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."  Romans 7:15-25 This is full of contradictions and is not consistent even as a philosophy. First your like the guy who takes credit for a Rembrandt when is all you did was put a frame around the painting. Your telling me that you painted the canvas because you were Rembrandt best friend. But your way of taking credit for someone else work is the phrase that Christ works through you to give you the credit. I think the bible calls this coveting. Your also confusing the idea of keeping the law. The value and honor of law keeping is determined by Gods standard. Reality is Gods glory and praise as the only end for everything that exist. When God is God He alone is worthy of the wisdom thanks and honor. So the power and strength are found in God alone. Its not Christ in us and we in Him that shares power... for "without Him we could do nothing." God says that He does not share His glory with any man.Your trying to compare apples and oranges by this idea of sharing. But we know that in reality an apple could never look like an orange. Your confusing how we are accepted in Christ. Christ is like the moral principle who only assist us in law keeping as we live out our christian lives. Every time we do something in our own power we do not keep the law. Every time we do something in His power we keep the law. But your saying that He does not violate our will. At the same time your saying that unless He does it through us than its impossible for us to keep the law. Your saying that Christ somehow takes us over and we become obedient. The only value in my opinion ...since you do not consistently present the working of the mind will and emotion in a logical sequence... the value is placed on the physical object as the power of force. Its like a person saying that its not ok to get drunk because Christ does not get drunk. But Christ must work through you to not get drunk.. you have no other choice. lol. But Christ will not violate your will... only take it over. lol.  Since there is no cause of a good choice ... the focus on the condition of the soul.. the pre conditioned attraction to the object as most pleasing to the mind.. then Christ is like the mystical figure of the moral principle who only is seen when you are letting Him live His life through you. Because you teach equilibrium freedom the object of the choice causes you to sin. You probably wont understand this but there are some people who know exactly what i am saying. Reply Quote Notify

2271  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Treatises on the Eternal Predestination of God : John Calvin on: July 19, 2011, 07:21:59 PM I propose, now, to enter into the sacred battle with Pighius and George, the Sicilian, a pair of unclean beasts (Lev. xi. 3) by no means badly matched. For though I confess that in some things they differ, yet, in hatching enormities of error, in adulterating the Scripture with wicked and revelling audacity, in a proud contempt of the truth, in forward impudence, and in brazen loquacity, the most perfect likeness and sameness will be found to exist between them. Except that Pighius, by inflating the muddy bombast of his magniloquence, carries himself with greater boast and pomp; while the other fellow borrows the boots by which he elevates himself from his invented revelation. And though both of them, at their commencement, agree in their attempt to overthrow predestination, yet they afterwards differ in the figments which they advance. An invention of them both is, that it lies in each one's own liberty, whether he will become a partaker of the grace of adoption or not; and that it does not depend on the counsel and decree of God who are elect and who are reprobate; but that each one determines for himself the one state or the other by his own will, and with respect to the fact that some believe the Gospel, while others remain in unbelief; that this difference does not arise from the free election of God, nor from His secret counsel, but from the will of each individual. Now Pighius explains his mind on the great matter before us thus: that God, by His immutable counsel, created all men to salvation without distinction; but that, as He foresaw the Fall of Adam, in order that His election might nevertheless remain firm and unaltered, He applied a remedy which might, therefore, be common to all, which remedy was His confirmation of the election of the whole human race in Christ; so that no one can perish but he who, by his own obstinacy, blots his name out of the book of life. And his view of the other side 28 CALVIN'S CALVINISM. Of the great question is that, as God foresaw that some would determinably remain unto the last in malice and a contempt of Divine grace, He by His foreknowledge reprobated such, unless they should repent. This, with him, is the origin of reprobation, by which he makes it out that the wicked deprive themselves of the benefit of universal election, irrespectively and independently of the counsel and will of God altogether. And he moreover declares that all those who hold and teach that certain persons are positively and absolutely chosen to salvation, while others are as absolutely appointed to destruction, think unworthily of God, and impute to Him a severity utterly foreign to His justice and His goodness. And our human reasoner here condemns the sentiments of Augustine, mentioning him by name. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2272  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Re-forming reformed theology on: July 19, 2011, 06:57:17 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on July 19, 2011, 04:40:58 PM mbG:  "My problem with you is how you word what God does and what you do. Gods law is necessary for us. But i do not blame God for not keeping His law because i do not claim that He lives His law through me. lol.  I know... i know... you never said that lol." K_k:  No, i never said we can blame God for not keeping His Law through us. But we can praise Him every time He does.  For we cannot keep His Law apart from Him living in and through us, and He will not keep the Law for us against our will.  It takes a cooperation of our trusting dependence and His trustworthy dependability to satisfy the requirements of perfect love. mbG:  "The psalmist reacted to the covenant given to Moses ... not with confidence or thinking that he could keep the law because Christ lived it through the psalmist... but his response was always confession that he never kept the law." K_k:  David loved the Law of God because He loved the Law-Giver and saw the righteous perfection of that Law, as did Jesus and Paul.  Jesus kept the Commandments and Law to the infinite degree (especially since, i believe, it was His Hand which wrote those directions in stone).  Paul said: "Therefore the Law is holy, and the Commandment holy and just and good."  Romans 7:12 So there is nothing wrong with the Laws of God, for they just detail out what love looks like.  It is we who are unable to keep those Laws apart from His Life working in and through us, which was their design and intent.  They are to show us our need for Him, lead us to Him as their fulfillment, convict us to be transformed toward Him, depending on Him more and more, as He shows forth the heart of His Commandments in our lives. Our obedience to His Laws depends on our trusting reliance on His Spirit, never on our strength or ability apart from Him.  They are both promises of what we shall be like in Him, and His "speaking the Word" into our lives, declaring what we shall and shall not do in sharing His love with Him and with His world. So let's see His moral directions as the eternal Gift they are, to be realized through His obedience to our Dad, within us, as He lifts us up to Home.  Then the Commandments are not a burden or a dead thing of the past, but living facets of the love that saves us. "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His Commandments.  For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments.  And His Commandments are not burdensome.  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world.  And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."  1 John 5:2-4 Kk ... your teaching contradictions. Youve said that we are unable to keep the law but Christ through us keeps the law. Now either we keep the law or He keeps the law... both cant keep the law at the same time in the same relationship. lol. If as you have been saying that Christ keeps the law through us then its just logical since you have said that we are unable to keep the law that Christ keeps the law. So my logical inference is that i can blame Christ for not keeping the law through me. ... just apply the law of non contradiction. You keep saying that i do not believe the law is good. I never said that. Ive said that we cannot keep the law.. never kept one law... but since Christ came to the earth and in His life He kept all of the law. He did not sin nor was any sin found in Him. Even if we kept 99 percent of the law.. we still are corrupted and subject to death and sinful weakness so it still does not equate to Christ keeping the law perfectly. Its a non issue. The point is since Christ kept the law ... our being justified by Christ is being declared righteous by His keeping the law.. not our keeping the law.He imputed His righteousness to our account ... we are the law breakers... and our sin was imputed to His account. We are not intrinsically righteous since Christ set the perfect standard of law keeping and to say that we keep the law is to lower His standard. Yours is a contradiction and unbiblical... mine is historically taught ( i might remind you... from people from your libertarian free will side)....and it is logical. Its like when you were talking about addiction. I said that you chose to take the first drink and all the drinks there after. Then you told me... i do not understand the problems with addicts. At the same time your telling me that its easy to keep the law... not to drink... because Christ keeps the law through me. You disagree with me and agree with me at the same time... lol. Reply Quote Notify

2273  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: The Federalist Papers on: July 19, 2011, 10:54:44 AM At present I mean only to consider it as it respects security for the preservation of peace and tranquillity, as well as against dangers from FOREIGN ARMS AND INFLUENCE, as from dangers of the LIKE KIND arising from domestic causes. As the former of these comes first in order, it is proper it should be the first discussed. Let us therefore proceed to examine whether the people are not right in their opinion that a cordial Union, under an efficient national government, affords them the best security that can be devised against HOSTILITIES from abroad. The number of wars which have happened or will happen in the world will always be found to be in proportion to the number and weight of the causes, whether REAL or PRETENDED, which PROVOKE or INVITE them. If this remark be just, it becomes useful to inquire whether so many JUST causes of war are likely to be given by UNITED AMERICA as by DISUNITED America; for if it should turn out that United America will probably give the fewest, then it will follow that in this respect the Union tends most to preserve the people in a state of peace with other nations. The JUST causes of war, for the most part, arise either from violation of treaties or from direct violence. America has already formed treaties with no less than six foreign nations, and all of them, except Prussia, are maritime, and therefore able to annoy and injure us. She has also extensive commerce with Portugal, Spain, and Britain, and, with respect to the two latter, has, in addition, the circumstance of neighborhood to attend to. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2274  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Losing fellowship with Jesus on: July 19, 2011, 10:46:03 AM Quote There is also the (not so little) point that by confessing our sin, we are agreeing with the Truth (Jesus), and the Truth then sets us free (He always does when we let Him).  Good motivation for confession. I should look it up but am too lazy at the moment. I think its in Matthew. There is a passage (a quote of Jesus)saying if you are about to make your offering and recall a brother has something against you, (you wronged him, sinned), to stop without making that offering and go and make it right and then return. The implication being that confessing to him is very important, and perhaps implying our worship/offerings are not desired by God while we are knowingly out of fellowship with others due to our sins that we haven't acknowledged, but are aware of. How was this applied in the NT ? It was an individual thing. The apostle encouraged the two sisters in Phil.4  2 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life. Here you have two women having a spat. The apostle encourages them to come together and get along. No necessarily about doctrine but personal differences. But you have Paul and Barnabas in the issue with John Mark. The bible does not give an account of this disagreement being ironed out. But i imagine it was. This was an issue that was not easily understood about who was wrong. And Barnabas showed love to John Mark by opposing Paul which was commendable.  Then you have Paul and Onesimus where Paul stands in for him and says for them to put it to Pauls account. I do not see Christ encouragement as a rule but its being sensitive to the person and helping the local church iron out its squabbles in real local church relationships. But its applied in very different ways. Reply Quote Notify

2275  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The "sabbath" and keeping it holy... on: July 19, 2011, 10:00:01 AM The ot ceremonial laws are compared to the difference between the scientific changes we have experienced in the history of our country. When we washed clothes in the old days we did it with a wash board. It was tedious and time consuming. They also would require drying over night since the clothes were hung up on a close line to dry. This was a daily chore since it was so slow. Now we wash our clothes by gathering them up and throwing them in a washer. The ot sacrificial system was tedious. But in Christ we have an eternal sacrifice. Our sins are forgiven ... not through scrubbing the clothes but through one act done on the cross. Now we just confess that we are sinners. Grace is common also... it brings new ways to do things by discovery and it allows us more freedom to enjoy Gods blessings as our culture is renewed in these scientific discoveries. Confession of sin is a once for all transaction. In our new birth we acknowledge our total inability to meet the requirements of the law because our sins were too great. But really our confession was not one time but ongoing.Even tho our salvation was a one time act ... yet the assurance of our salvation is a continual enjoyment of Gods grace and forgiveness. This is why salvation is not a way to get the power of God but salvation or the gospel is the power of God. So we do not focus on our asking the first time but we focus on the gospel of grace as the power that we enjoy in our salvation. This is what we call a life of repentance. If someone has asked God for salvation but does not have assurance, the answer is to seek salvation through ongoing repentance. Because the message of salvation is always the remedy. The more we apply the gospel of grace the deeper we will see our sins and the more we will bask in His grace. This is our confession. Confession of sin is not really focused on our individual sins. But confession or repentance is our spiritual understanding of our position as sinners before a holy God. But confession is not our trying to see how unworthy we are and how holy God is but its acknowledging that we are unable to help ourselves so there is no hope of presenting ourselves in our own reality of who we are as sinners. Its letting God define who we are as sinners. Its depending on God in a life of repentance. First we must not think we can show how evil we are because we always tend to be extreme in our assessments. We must know more than grace ... we must know Gods graciousness as a Father. In other words God deals with us in lite of our unreal expectations whether they are toward someone else or self defeating. God provides each one of us a way that is not like any other way. He measures us according to His sight. What God wants is for us to grow in understanding what He says to us not just a general and universal understanding of how sin infected the whole human race ... or how an individual sin is irritating us to be anxious. What God is looking for is our confession that we need Him not only to forgive our sins but for Him to deal with us so that we love Him more than we love anything else! In other words our best confession is to see God as most attractive in having a healthy understanding of who we are.   Reply Quote Notify

2276  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Three Dimensional Reality on: July 19, 2011, 08:55:51 AM God looks on us in reality as totally accepted. He did not offer us a chance to be accepted. But God reached down and met us by choosing us to be His object of love. God does not wait for us to do something in order to accomplish His own purposes. But He acts on our behalf because He Himself provided the way of success in His Son to bless us. Christ is our compete substitute not a helpless defender. Christ work accomplished His way.. there was nothing else that needed to be accomplished. It is finished. This is why He bids us to come and ask anything in His name and He will do it. Because since salvation is in Him alone then everything we enjoy in our salvation is for the asking. Salvation is by.. or through grace alone. It is an ongoing life ...lived in Christ. We do not try to follow Christ but we obtain everything we need to be successful. Followers need to do something to be accepted. They need to present themselves like their master. But redemption is paid in full for people who were on a slave market who had no ability to become identified with a new master. We do not come to God through the law but we are totally accepted in Gods presence through Christ who did all the work. So we are not promised a wage but we are in a new life that offers more than we could ask or think. There is only two realities. There is a natural life where we try to earn our own good name... the demands are very high... higher than we in-vision and the wages are meagerly. ... the rewards slip through our fingers....the end comes to nothing .... or there is the way of grace. In the way of grace we do not work for His gifts but the giver gives them out of grace alone. So we are encouraged to ask. When we ask in faith we obtain more than we ask for. We learn that the real things on this earth are gifts from God. So whatever we obtain its because God blessed our faith. If you have the faith of a mustered seed then you can move mountains. So ... there is no in between holding facility to house all the people God is waiting for . lol. Our righteousness is not the goal. But His name being glorified is. He glorifies His name through us. How? By making unworthy vessels objects of His love and mercy. Not by providing a way of success through obedience. He does not give us a chance to prove that we live according to His law. But He acts to remove our sins from us as far as the east is from the west and then He defends us even tho we are law breakers. His success is through His work in us. Not living through us but showing forth His glory in spite of us. lol.  He enables us by our lack of ability. When He saved us then He put us on a road in which He will work in us to will and do... no matter what. In His covenant of love He cannot not do what He promised. So in His commands to us ... He works it out so that our lack is covered over and our righteous desires that He gave us by grace ... are blessed. He must act in us because He will not be thwarted. His ways are not subject to our ways. He acts according to His pleasure. There is only one communication and it comes from a Shepherd to His sheep. He teaches us... enables us... forgives us.. and answers us... this is watching us to success. We just come to Him as we are. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2277  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Re-forming reformed theology on: July 19, 2011, 07:55:42 AM My problem with you is how you word what God does and what you do. Gods law is necessary for us. But i do not blame God for not keeping His law because i do not claim that He lives His law through me. lol.  I know... i know... you never said that lol. Gods law and its relationship to us is not the focus. I believe that  a christian is familiar with his own heart before that man is confronted with Gods word. This is the reason the Psalmist loved Gods law. Because the law contains, precepts, statutes, commands and decrees. The psalmist reacted to the covenant given to Moses ... not with confidence or thinking that he could keep the law because Christ lived it through the psalmist... but his response was always confession that he never kept the law. The Psalmist was seeking God for who God was... not trying to obtain acceptance from God through law keeping. Or using unscriptural words to claim that he could keep the law. The reason the Psalmist loved Gods law was it agreed with the reality of the Psalmist experience of being transparent before God as the Psalmist was a law breaker who was accepted by God. The law reminded the Psalmist that God accepts law breakers because of Gods pre determination to choose a law breaker out of Gods unfailing love. So the grace was defined as Gods faithfulness because the Psalmist was not faithful.. Gods kindness... because the Psalmist was always coveting.... Gods long suffering ... because the Psalmist complained.... and Gods goodness...because he Psalmist had little faith to believe that God would provide. In other words this struggle the Psalmist was experiencing was between joy and sorrow. Not focused on the Psalmist law keeping. The law pointed to the reality. This is why the Psalmist was always praising God. This is why the Psalmist found true joy... not self confidence. If the Psalmist was bragging... it was about what God did through an unworthy and unable vessel of Gods mercy. The Psalmist gloried in his God. This made the Psalmist more confident in God. His whole focus was on his natural tendency to stray from Gods covenant love and the Psalmist need to return with more perseverance to focus on his God. Not to focus on the Psalmist obedience . Reply Quote Notify

2278  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: July 17, 2011, 10:01:13 AM Kk you and i have a very big difference in the way we define addiction. Your defining it as something we must overcome , like a behavior, because you make addiction a buzz word for behavioral modification. My understanding of addiction is what the apostle says in his maturity as a believer that what he does not want to do, that thing he does. So i see there is really no difference about addictions. Addictions can be sinful or praise worthy. The use language is very important in how we live. This is why its good that we question most of those things we believe and others tell us. Our first response in listening is to compare it with the scriptures and our own experience in the use of the scriptures. We develop our own communication in how we speak to ourselves. How we think about who we are. So we always need to compare those words to these doctrinal reasoning. Obviously our living in this world always has side effects. Everything we take into our bodies has a chemical component. The process of death is in the side effects of whatever we enjoy.  The bible tells us that all things are sanctified for our usage. This is why its not the things we enjoy that make us want them. Those things do not control us but we control them. God has gifted us with a level of respect to grant us freedom to enjoy these things. The respect we have is in using them for our own enjoyment without accusation that we are doing wrong. So God places a big premium on our enjoying Him by His gifting us with the things of the world that in some ways have side effects. This respect is what distinguishes us as individuals with personal space. The evil then is to think and teach without Gods authority. So goes our respect so goes Gods authority. This is why we must not believe things based upon experience but we must know what God teaches and even if it seems disconnected to our personal struggle we must learn to trust God and not ourselves. Most of the problems a person has are not going to be changed in a short time period. Problems develop over a long period of time. When a person is taught to think wrong in the infant yrs. these sins are not going to be easy to overcome. In fact most of these problems are life long. When a society is degenerate these sins begin to break up the foundations. So there is this circular destruction that creates this cycle of worse problems. got to go.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

2279  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The "sabbath" and keeping it holy... on: July 16, 2011, 11:28:44 AM The sabbath was Gods government carrying out His will toward His covenant people. It was the day when God gave gifts to His people for the purpose of adding something to community. Its a day in which God comes down to His covenant people and performs in their mist in showing them the reality of the new world order. This is how society in general is to conduct themselves. Out of the community of believers comes the proselytizing of the view of grace for all to follow in how they treat their neighbor. This way of thinking brought success as a positive reinforcement for treating your neighbor as you would want to be treated. The sabbath is a display of Gods goodness and grace.  But when the church is disengaged and uncaring then it becomes like a dispersion of its members. The people are not for the church but the church is for the people. The church is really a society that encourages. It is a place where people learn to be merry and unconcerned about the troubles in how the world defines them. Its a place that people meet and from that meeting they are renewed and reordered. It is the only place where needs are truly met. This is why the message of grace has been turned upside down. Because we have focused on the bottom and not from the top down. The sabbath is not a day where we get the rules and feel as if we have been threatened if we do not measure up.  Its not a day where we come to offer a hand and get it bit off. In this sense ... sometimes you will find more grace in meeting out in the world than in the church. Its a place where we become the agents of Gods love in a world that is turned upside down.    Reply Quote Notify

2280	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Three Dimensional Reality	on: July 15, 2011, 02:59:58 PM
The events on this earth are order by God from eternity past. God brings glory to Himself in His work for the pleasure of His own end. Before God created the world He order the events of time to culminate in putting all things under His feet. This means that no one who has ever been saved was able to gain Gods favor or success apart from Gods choosing that man from eternity past out of His free mercy and grace. So that God decided to save some men and pass over others. God has already applied the law to some men who will be punished for their rebellion. There are cursed generations of men. In order for God to be God ...He has the rite to stand as judge over the whole history of nations and bring an end to their rule. God does not depend upon man to move the world events but He orders these events so that He might have a long line of the righteous through all generations and that He might be free to let the other generations stand in their sins. He sets one nation up and He puts one nation down. God rules from the heavens and warns the kings of the earth to kiss the Son lest He be angry and you be removed from your way. God has judged the rulers of this earth and found them wanting. This is why Gods dwelling is separated from this cursed universe. No man can look on God and live. God is holy and dwells in unapproachable light. But Gods throne never changes. God never changes. For all eternity past God has been on His throne and there has been continuous worship, falling down, singing, praising God. Because to look on God is to be consumed in His presence. Its to let God be God. God must be worshiped ... day and night. There is continuous perfect worship in Gods presence.  We can be sure that God knows the end from the beginning. In seeing God on His throne we can be sure that He will bring all these events to culminate into His Son ruling for all eternity. We can be sure that the worship of God will go on for all of eternity because God is God.      2281  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: July 15, 2011, 02:34:33 PM The most personal application of connection to redemption is acknowledging the universal pain as a return for our weaknesses. A christian is not able to determine the complexity of how sin and weakness interact. This is why only God can make us joyful in our experience of continuing to sin. Because God looks on us with pity. He knows that we are dust. What God says takes the place of doing any steps. We hear God and we are quieted. We hear God and that is enough! If you want to be circumcised why dont you go ahead and cut it off?! lol But God is a God who dwells with the lowly and the sinners. He meets us in our most sensitive experiences. Because God has determined to direct our lives by speaking what we are to experience before we even think of it. God deals with the disease of the thought life not the outward attraction to an addiction. There is no man that can change an evil personality. The only level that men get to is to tie heavy yokes around the necks of the poor and helpless. But God sees rite down to the cells of our physical experience. God views these things as He is present every where. He is closer to our view of our lives than we are to Him. We are in Him. lol. God is present in a view of us that we do not understand. Because God sees everything present. He sees all of history at one time. He knows every place a particle moves in each sequence of time in one view. lol. This is why God knows our sins and weakness. God does not give us the means for His knowledge but for our good. Our problem is not really our sin but our believing the God who has no equals. We live in the presence of a completely holy and righteous God who does what ever pleases Him. He works with our sin to humble us so that we wont be self motivated and proud. He proves Himself to the most sinful person. The one who fails and falls, who experiences his sins as if one was piled up upon another and this man sees the height of his sins to infinity. God uses addictions, sins, weakness, fear, guilt, sorrow, to free a man from himself. Who would be thankful if that man shared in Gods grace? Who would be motivated to praise God with all his heart if that man thought he needed to do something in order to receive Gods favor? Who would worship God with all of his might if that man consider his own works worthy of Gods gifts? You see sin and weakness are so inter woven in our beings that we miss out on enjoying God for who God is. We are so easily led to focus on our own worthiness our own power, our own goodness to show we are serious , than to acknowledge that in order for God to be God we must consider ourselves unable, powerless, weak, so that in giving God the glory we receive a pleasure in our low position.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2282  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The New Reality of the Natural Man on: July 15, 2011, 02:04:51 PM We are caught in between two worlds in our cultural experience. Our natural experience is determined by our heavenly experience. I do not think these two offer equal ways to proceed. But our obedience seen is in the use of the means. The means are using the word of God, the sacraments and baptism. Using these means is like entering into a struggle in understanding how we are to live in this world. This is why faith overcomes, anxiety, doubt, fear, and failure. We believe the remedy is not human trust, believing, bravery, and success but growing in faith by using the word of God as a swordsmen. I any relationship our struggle is in our minds. Because we believe that we are caught in between a road that we do things and God does things. But if we just approached our practical life as a matter of division then we must simplify how we are to grow in faith. So that a simple minded man will be unstable because that man lives to please other men. This practical side is personal when we think in terms of the complexity of our faith. In other words we are not talking about outward show but we are talking about be... ing. This is why what we think in our minds is who we are. Because all of the personal voices in this universe... power, wealth, wisdom and strength , honor glory and praise are all intricately woven in our understanding of saving faith. These are Gods decrees and promises. This application is the only free exercise as an experience of our total influence in our culture. The truth of God is like a prism... we look at it in experience from many different views of application. In this sense the illuminations we get from scripture are new moments of experience in our connecting to our circumstances. The world is a place where super naturalism collides as a communication  in between two people that blossoms into one person. In this sense there is no relationship in terms of experience, its growth, its connection, its wholeness that can be defined. This is the application of saving faith. But at the same time we have human desires. But the experience of human desires are the by product of the closeness in the connection. Because there are some relationships that will not blossom because of the lack of spiritual agreement. Some relationships will never move on because there is no understanding based upon common cultural experiences. This is why in understanding who we are ... we must experience freedom on a level that we accept these limitations so that we will not mix up the wholeness in holding onto the causes of our experience.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 2283  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: July 15, 2011, 11:25:18 AM When we come to God we do not come with a list of individual addictions. But we come as completely unable. We do not respond with a concern for ourselves as if we needed to become better with time and self knowledge. But we come in response to His definition of us. We trust that He knows better about us than what we think works. In other words we always come to Him not knowing if we will quit a sin or get better but we know that if He makes us new then it will happen in His time. We come to Him with no definition of what will work. He gives us gifts that we do not understand the way He is working on us. We are totally free to change by grace alone. We are free to sin and confess all our lives. We are not sinners by actions first but we are sinners by nature. We are all sin... God is all good. We are unable God is able. We always start at the same point we came to Him when we were saved. At the point of grace. Our growth does not depend upon our being good or quitting something but upon our trusting that God will change us in His time. When we come to Him ...we do not think about our responsible actions but in facing self we only acknowledge that our addictions lead to our acknowledging that we are sinners by nature. In acknowledging that we are sinners by nature we acknowledge that God is the only good. So we do not consider how we can change in facing ourselves. But we do not find comfort in our steps but only in what we could never accomplish as being responsible in facing our responsibility. We overlook our wrongs for the sake of finding comfort in our addictions knowing that our sin leads us to His grace and on His grace we are powerless and He alone determines when we are going to change. Remove Reply Quote Notify 2284  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Re-forming reformed theology on: July 15, 2011, 11:06:22 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on July 12, 2011, 02:28:51 PM mbG:  "Kk you sure show a lot of hate by going against those who say God has enemies. lol." K_k:  You have not quite understood, mbG.  Let's discuss it a little further and the light may come on. God has enemies.  We were once His enemies.  Some of His enemies will remain enemies all of the brief existence. "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled"  Colossians 1:21 God loves His enemies.  They are His creatures, designed into His Master Plan.  And the "hatred" He will show them is not like a man's hatred, but a holy anger against sin that comes from a heart of compassion and mercy. Jesus:  "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil."  Luke 6:35 Compared to an unending Life of intimate union with Him, which is His preference for them, He allows them to experience, by their own deepest choice, the results of clinging onto sin and evil when the Time has come to eliminate those completely.  The impenitent lost, too, will be eliminated completely. "The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people's conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance."  2 Peter 3:9 So He "hates" His enemies in the sense of allowing them to experience the Second Death, instead of forcing them to live with Him forever.  And He loves them, in the sense of His character being perfect love, even toward the lost. He would prefer they repent but allows them to persist in rebelliousness and rejection of Truth, to their own destruction. "Then Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second death....But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the Second Death.”  Revelation 20:14, 21-8 He shows great patience and long-suffering and kindness to His enemies in this life and will be merciful and gracious (as well as totally fair) to them as He gives them the perfect Ending they deserve and shall desire, a complete elimination. Ultimately He is "a consuming fire" to all sin and evil, because of His purity and all-powerful righteousness.  Only those who cling on to their "complete", though illusory, separation from Him will experience the final death, a destruction to ashes.  He would rather they turn to Him in repentance but will not force unending Life with Him upon them against their wills. "For our God is a consuming fire."  Hebrews 12:29 "Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die..."  Ezekiel 33:11 He loves them too much to prolong their suffering and misery into eternity.  Their death will be a "mercy killing" in the truest sense of that phrase.  Just think of Jesus crying over the Jerusalem He wished would turn to Him, yet which He knew would have to be totally destroyed in the near future. Jesus:  "Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace!"  Luke 19:41 Jesus:  “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"  Matthew 23:37 Thanks for drawing more explanation out, mbG, to the glory of God.  Is more needed? You have a kind of soulish doctrine. A lower form than the scriptural definition of man as a free moral agent. The sin question is tied to mans presence rather than his direct communication as having a mind , will and emotions. All of the functions of man as intellectually responsible are funneled into a kind of cellular paradigm. You reduce man to an active presence followed by extinction. So if you have left a void that must be filled by our need to think responsibility then who is left to be god in lite of the questions we pose as thinking beings? lol Obviously since you take the scripture so lightly then God is not here to defend Himself. lol. Reply Quote Notify 2285  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: July 15, 2011, 10:57:24 AM Quote from: poppy on July 14, 2011, 12:23:28 PM Thanks Tom. Wish I could read as fast as you write. Thanks Poppy... most kind... ive gotten back moving forward with Revelation. My most cherished object of affection is memorizing this book and sharing my illuminations of pleasure with people. So in going back over the 3 chapts i previously memorized, i havent lost any of them in my memory... which is surprising at my age. I will continue on and post often.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2286  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: July 15, 2011, 10:42:51 AM His life in us is not trading our goodness with His goodness ..or our trying to do what He did. Its not what we do that makes us acceptable to Him living in us. But its Christ in us the hope of glory. We have a life that is much bigger than we could imagine. We died with Christ. So lets think like this. We are sinners by nature, actions, and weakness or lack of ability. We are criminals who must stand before the Judge of the universe and be tried for our sins. We have a ledger book in heaven that list our good deeds on the one side and our sins on the other. This ledger has been added up and we are charged with a bill that can never be paid. We owe more than we can pay. But God demands payment upon entering heaven. This is why all who are not found to be in Jesus Christ must pay the price for their own sins. But God has provided a way through Christ by saving us. Christ is not our accuser but our substitute. Christ is not our friend by addition and subtraction but by grace. Christ has done more than provided us a way to be saved. He has done all the work and now we are accepted because Christ is standing in our place as the definition of our being in Christ. We have more than a friend but we actually have a new identity. There is no one who can accuse us because Christ no longer condemns us. This means that we no longer think like we used to think in our old life. We have been bought with His blood. We no longer are possessions of any other thing. We belong to Christ. When we sin we do not try to appease Christ who alone is holy. But we turn to Christ who provided a way for us to be accepted ... not on our recorded efforts but on His work alone. So we bring nothing that is acceptable to Christ and He gives us gifts for free. This means that we are more than whatever we think of the most attractive person in this world. We are adopted into the family of God. We are now accepted as a member of His family and there is no way we can get out of being represented by His name. So now there is nothing that keeps us from having access to Him. We have a full offer in the gospel to open fellowship with our new Heavenly Father. We no longer try to lower our standard of acceptance by an image of the most perfect man. But we fall back on Christ work that has no relation to our lives here on earth in this time. We have a much greater foundation of our future hope. Our future is dependent upon the value of His work done in His incarnation. The basis of our communication to Him is from His work on our behalf. So we have a future that cannot be fathomed. We have something good that we cannot even dream about. It is more than we could do on our own. We now belong to a Family where the gifts come to us through grace alone , by faith alone, in Christ alone.    Reply Quote Notify 2287  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: July 14, 2011, 08:49:41 AM The Lamb is our sovereign defender who is in the heavens working in the events in this time period to bring in those He purchased in His death , resurrection and ascension to heaven. He is the Lord of glory,who comes on His chariot to rescue His people. This language in chapt 4 - 6 is like Israel getting ready to go to battle. All of the events in this time period are ordered in displaying His power , wealth , wisdom and strength , honor, glory and praise, in light of His saving His people. He orders these events in light of the communication of the former saints who petition Him to bring in the new heavens and earth. These heavenly saints are part of a long history of martyrs that long for the Lord to bring vengeance for those martyrs that have not yet been killed.  We are in the time of the already but not yet. When the Lord appears to bring in the New age ,He will appear in His glory. Upon His appearance the men of this earth will be struck with a fear of judgement. There will be no other option but to stand before the Judge and receive their punishment.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 2288  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Re-forming reformed theology on: July 12, 2011, 08:52:37 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on July 10, 2011, 01:47:26 PM Another aspect of re-forming reformed theology is a re-examination of how God treats His greatest enemies.  Scripture is clear that we are commanded by Him to love our enemies.  And the second "summary Commandment", to love our neighbors, as we (already) love ourselves, can also apply to enemies if they are our neighbors. When we look at how our Dad treated satan in the Book of Job, we see He exhibited restraint, respect and acceptance (within limit) of satan's desires to do evil (knowing that He would reverse / highly compensate any damage done by satan).  So "long-suffering", or patience, is the characteristic that seems very visible there. Which is one of the characteristics of perfect love in 1 Corinthians, chapter 13.  And we are told God is perfect love in several ways and places.  All of which suggests that He loves His enemies, just as He has said. “You have heard that it was said,  ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’  But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in Heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."  Matthew 5:43-45 So when we see that He "hates" His enemies, it seems He is using a different meaning than what we call hatred.  He can love those who persistently rebel against Him and yet "hate" them in the sense that He must remove them in the End from the pure and perfect Kingdom which He will eventually establish. Thus He loves His creatures, but will not, because He is perfect love, allow evil and sin, and those who are permanently devoted to them, to continue into eternity, for the sake of His beloved children.  They must be brought to an End, the Second Death, and compared to the Life of unending joy and communion with Him that He wishes for them, they are relatively speaking children of wrath, prepared for destruction. But there will be compassion, kindness and love in their elimination also.  As Jesus cried over the Jerusalem He knew would have to soon be completely destroyed, for they would not turn to Him.  Our Dad takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, He tells us, but will not force unending Life with Him upon them. Which is a different picture of Him than we have been trained to see, by leaving out Scriptures which might show His love for the persistently lost.  And if this understanding shows Him to be far more loving than our traditions indicate, while remaining faithful to His Word, then should we not move in that direction? Kk you sure show a lot of hate by going against those who say God has enemies. lol. Reply Quote Notify 2289  Forums / Break Room / Re: Dealing with Porn. on: July 12, 2011, 08:39:41 AM Quote from: Lone Arranger on July 09, 2011, 04:13:28 PM I often think people have sex in some vain attempt to be united with God.  There's this lost feeling we all have for real connectedness.  Sex allows us to forget for awhile, but when it's over the lonely longing returns.  I think one of the main prohibitions against sexual immorality in the bible is that marriage is supposed to an illustrative type of our relationship with God.  We the church are Christ's bride.  And Israel in the old testament was God the Father's bride.  In any case when we mess up this way we are corrupting the illustrative type of ultimate complete union with God.  All I can say is that I can't wait for that eternal hug.  Bring it on!  I used to draw this parallel but i now think this is going too far. After all we are not going to have sex in heaven and we will be completely satisfied in all of our relationships. But the truth is that in light of our relationships on earth no one belongs to the other person. All of us who believe in Christ belong to Christ. So that real freedom is not bringing Christ down to our culture but lifting Christ up by ownership. We do not learn images from earth to heaven but from heaven to earth. lol. I mean in experiencing true freedom in our relationships. We dont need more focus but we need an eternal forgetfulness and pain relief. This is why there is only one place that we can find enough help in order to not use our closest relationships to try to fill a need they were never intended to fill. We can love out of freedom. That is we can love from a source outside of the human condition. Our problems are not mainly our not getting our needs met but we are unhappy because we do not find lasting peace and security to bring to a relationship. Reply Quote Notify 2290  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: REPENT! God hates your sin.. or else on: July 12, 2011, 07:53:37 AM Little children are in the care of their parents. They are under the protection of an adult, their needs are met in a one sided way, because little children are the most vulnerable  to all the dangers of this world. They must be watched all the time. In fact , the kind of people their parents are ... is seen in their children. Here Christ shows how important it is to focus on the most vulnerable in society because in that culture of weakness is the success or fall of the future of a nation. In other words in comparison to how a person is formed in his teen yrs with little children the latter has a very short window that will determine how they live for the rest of their lives. Theres probably 3 to 4 yrs were most of the molding of the character happens in a persons life. We all developed our character in these young yrs. Our prosperity from generation to generation is how we leave a legacy to the next generation. This is a world under the sovereign hand of God who has determined to produce life, eternal life, through coming to weak and unable recipients who in turn focus on the most weak in that culture as the motif of the flow of life. Our sons should be like well nurtured plants our daughters like  ivory pillars carved to adorn a palace. They will take our place as a public display of in our later yrs. They can either bring happiness or sorrow. They effect the quality of life of the older generation. This is why God must save or all people will be fatherless. All of us are children of God who call on the name of God. We all stand as helpless, weak, fearful, and prone to wander. We all want to control our own destiny. But God is the only connection to real life. Because God must be worshiped as God or we will worship another father image. We must start with God or we will forever be discouraged in looking to any man. God has decided to come to us in a relationship through His covenant of love. In other words God leads off in His introducing Himself with the promise of an inheritance for anyone who continually calls on Him for salvation. When is the day of salvation? Its today. If you hear His voice then you have heard the voice of the Father of the universe. This is our legacy ...every day ... salvation promised from the mouth of a loving Father. Reply Quote Notify 2291  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: July 09, 2011, 04:11:28 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on July 09, 2011, 02:00:57 PM Galatians 3:1-4 "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?  This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?  Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?" K_k:  Yes, we are foolish if we think we have received the Holy Spirit because we did good works or kept the Law as Jesus did.  Only when we asked for, and received Christ Jesus as our Savior, risen from the dead to give us His unending Life, did we become indwelt by the Spirit. And only through His Spirit in us, and through us, can we keep His Laws and Commandments.  WIthout the Law-Giver / Law-Fulfiller, the Laws of love cannot be kept. Galatians 3:5-9 "Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— just as Abraham  “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.  And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,  “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham." K_k:  So does your own self-directed, self-empowered keeping of the Law make you spiritual?  Not at all.  Only by acting in childlike obedience to the Spirit of Christ within us, in His power and under His direction, are we children of Abraham and of God.  Rejecting the Laws of love or pretending they are done away with is not loving Him, but it is distorting His desire to write them on our hearts and minds, which is the New Covenant in His Blood. Galatians 3:10-14 "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse; for it is written,  “Cursed is  everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the Law in the sight of God is evident, for  “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the Law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” K_k:  Yes, doing the works of the Law in our own "power" and self-direction justifies no one.  Only when the Law-Giver / Law-Fulfiller is living through us will we begin to keep the Law in His Spirit, by faith in Him, not by self-effort.  Cursed is every person who tries to keep the Law apart from Jesus because they will always fail.  The Law can only be kept by the individual having Him as their inner Life-Force and Guide. The "Man Who does them (the Law) shall live by them", and He did, and He does.  In us, if we let Him. Galatians 3:13-14 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." K_k:  Yes, Christ has redeemed us from the curse of His Law, which was death for all who break it, since "the wages of sin is death" and "the soul that sins shall die".  And He died to pay the penalty for our sins, each and every one of them.  (He wasn't tortured eternally for them, as has been previously noted.   ) And He rose from the dead to send us the Spirit of God, so that we might become the righteousness of God through Him.  And that righteousness of His Life in and through us, is the satisfaction of the Law and the Cross.  For in Him is no sin, no breaking of the Law, no pretense that the eternal moral of God has been done away with. Romans 6:1-3 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?  Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?" 1 John 3:4 "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." K_k:  We are not freed from the Laws of love but are freed to obey them, in Christ, through Christ, with Christ.  In Him, we establish the Law rather than abolish it, for perfect love never commits sin which is being without Law. Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law through faith?  Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law." mbG:  "Your a dangerous man Kk." K_k:  Thanks, mbG.  I try to be as dangerous as i can be, as dangerous as He can make me, to errors which distorts His Word to us.  The glory is His, though, not mine.  Thanks, anyway. Thanks Kk... heres how i think we should reason about law and grace. The law is multi faceted. When we measure ourselves to the law we go against a power that is too strong for us. The law is very dangerous if it is used wrong. It can be used as an addiction in self hate. I believe the law is more predominate in the destruction of lives than finding it to be of use for our knowledge. When we approach the law as having the ability to accomplish the goals of keeping the law and we use it as an instrument to condemn others is when we are playing with fire. The gospel response to the law is to "call uncle." We respond by confessing that we are sinners and do not deserve salvation. I dont believe that turning to Christ involves us to not want to be saved from its condemnation and accusations. I do not believe the bible teaches that we have no rite to claim salvation in light of our sins. But we must learn to respond correctly to its power. Or we will be in danger of thinking things about ourselves in which we condemn ourselves where the bible does not condemn us. We must be trained to trust that grace is under girding this opposition and any miss understanding that draws our focus away from the positive effects of salvation. We must learn to think when the law speaks there is no hope of overcoming its power. But we must train ourselves to be thankful that it cannot rule us. We must turn our eyes away from ourselves and onto a covenant keeping God who is always faithful, loving , full of mercy and who gives gifts to sinners. Not only does God give gifts to us in spite of our disobedience but He acts as the only law keeper to defend us even when we are wrong. We must learn what gospel thankfulness is. The more we understand how God has cast our sins as far as the east is from the west the more we will have confidence that He is not our accuser but our defender. The more we understand God as defender the more we will trust in Him alone and not man. In other words the focus is finding grace as the goal. Finding our substitution who speaks salvation to us. Finding Christ our Shepherd. Remove Reply Quote Notify 2292  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: July 09, 2011, 10:40:15 AM Galatians 3 Faith or Works of the Law  1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]  7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.  10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Your a dangerous man Kk. Remove Reply Quote Notify 2293  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The New Reality of the Natural Man on: July 09, 2011, 10:26:54 AM This is very difficult for me in turning it to how we are to think in this world. How the supernatural opens up the window that lightens up the practical world. The christian man knows himself by his knowledge of God. But in knowing himself then the christian man no longer must earn his acceptance with God. This means that in any setting of this life we are going to be confronted with opposition because we have experience a new vision of everyone around us , we view things more colorful, and we feel emotions in light of the natural circumstances we are in. So we have a tendency to hold these things tightly because we do not know how express our new ways in light of how our culture has taught us. We tend to hold the supernatural part in and retreat into  timidity for the sake of peace. The natural man is like a reception of the circumstances of this life. A man forms his ideas by his experience of the circumstances both emotional and physical.We tend to hold onto things by pushing them down into our souls. I believe that confusion does not come from our circumstantial sins but from this build up of repressed feelings and experiences that create anxiety in us.We should not take sin lightly but we are not defined by our sins. In holding onto past experiences we make the new troubles more difficult to deal with. God has made us able to go through circumstances in this life and move on to more growth as the natural way to find peace. But we do not understand ourselves because we just press on not thinking that these experiences build up and then come out in many different forms. God has a way of freedom. We know God and we find freedom. The Spirit is a Spirit of freedom. But we are in between two voices. We learn that there is guilt, shame, fear and sorrow... and we are taught different kinds of self power. What is not natural to us is that we have the ability to be transparent  before God. We always think that we must do something in order to be free from what ails us. There is not only a war with holding onto experiences but there is a war in thinking that there is something that separates us from Gods presence. The point is that we were made to enjoy all of the things in this world... even those things that are forbidden in a wrong way... in the fullest sense of free expression. How do we get to the point where these experiences of life ...eating , drinking, love, hate, beauty...etc become more detailed in their language to our hearts and deeper in their appealing to our joyful anticipation? We must learn how to unburden our anxiety and anger. We must get down into our inner man experience. I hope to explain this in more detail.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2294  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The New Reality of the Natural Man on: July 09, 2011, 10:03:18 AM Quote from: poppy on July 08, 2011, 12:30:58 PM ...just a bookmark so I can come back and read more later. I'll remove this post when I get back. Thanks bro... i will get to the other question you asked me... been very busy lately... Remove Reply Quote Notify 2295  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: REPENT! God hates your sin.. or else on: July 09, 2011, 09:56:14 AM Repentance is not a one time act. In fact the act itself is not what makes repentance acceptable. All of our approach to a holy God ... including our efforts to repent are filthy rags. This is why we must turn away from our sin to the Person who accomplished all righteousness so that we will not be tempted to approach God on our own. We must learn that repentance is very important in our lives and we must focus on its success and not be led into a side path. This is why repentance is not mainly about repenting for each individual sin. We must focus on the main things so that we will not add more sorrow to this life. The christian language is universal in this sense. There is a moral element, blame, accusations, and a quest for control, working it out and feeling forgiven... or living a life were we feel victorious even if the whole world is against us. There are other forms of repentance that give us acceptance in a cultural sense ... but there is only one repentance that speaks freedom. Repentance is more than being sly in our accusations.. or trying to be cute in our social relationships. Repentance is more than our attention to how serious we are . Repentance must not be focused on us, what other people think about us, how we gain acceptance as a leader, or how we attract other people to our level of success. But repentance is living to glorify and enjoy God ....looking to the grace that we will receive when we see Him. Repentance is a gift not a chore. Our response must always be a gospel response. This means that we do not just repent over sin but we learn how to think lowly of ourselves in the rite way. Repentance is simply our view of the gospel. Its measure by how important the gospel is in our lives. Our success in this life is how we repent by how we understand all the other truths in the gospel of grace. This is why there are so many different messages about repentance. Because there is a kind of recipe in which all the important ingredients must be put into what is produced as the success. This one word creates all kinds of different reactions in us. Because we all want to repent but we end up not thinking these things through so that it becomes a way of life that is joyful in the repenting.