Note
that Jesus was the Kingdom of Heaven come to earth and He was taken by
force to suffer violence. This is not an encouragement for us to try to
take Heaven by force, but rather to lay down our lives that the King
and His Kingdom may enter us without force. Does your commentary agree?
You take something by force that you violently oppose.
Not that you agree with. lol Thats a contradiction. Hes talking about
those who oppose the kingdom of God and those who oppose the ones who
oppose the kingdom of God. Your teaching a contradiction. No one that i
have read interprets this verse like you Kk. This is one of those simple
interpretations.
Here is Guthries explaination of those "called from the womb"
I. There
are some called from the womb, as John the Baptist was, or in their
very early years, before they can be deeply engaged actively in Satan’s
ways, as Timothy. It cannot be supposed that those have such a
preparatory work as we are to speak of. And because some persons may
pretend to this way of effectual calling, we offer these marks of it,
whereby those who have been so called may be confirmed.
1. Such
wont from their childhood to be kept free of ordinary pollutions with
which children usually are defiled; as swearing, lying, mocking of
religion and religious persons, &c. Those whom God calleth
effectually, he sanctifieth them from the time of that effectual
calling: “Sin cannot have dominion over them” as over others, “because
they are under grace.”
Religion is, as it were, natural to them;
I mean, they need not to be much pressed to religious duties, even when
they are but children; they run willingly that way, because there is an
inward principle of “love constraining them,” so that they “yield
themselves, servants of righteousness,” without outward restraint.
3.
Although such know not when they were first acquainted with God, yet
they have afterwards such exercises of spirit befalling them, as the
saints in Scripture speak of, of whose first conversion we hear not.
They are shut out from God, upon some occasion, now and then, and are
admitted to come nearer again to their apprehension; their heart is also
further broken up by the ordinances, as is said of Lydia. And generally
they remember when some special subject of religion and duty, or when
some sin, of which they were not taking notice before, was discovered to
them. They who can apply these things to themselves, have much to say
for their effectual calling from their youth.
KK,
While
I am not a strict Calvinist (3-4 pointer depending upon who is
counting) I can see their point in such cases as described above. We
have a grandson who exhibits many of the traits described above. A
godliness of character and sensitivity to spiritual things much beyond
his years. Such a blessing to all those he encounters. I just wonder
what marvelous things God has in store for him.
Bill
we believe that a person is called and then regenerated. The call is
effectual because it is the first evidence of the spiritual ears being
opened to listen to God. Regeneration is the experience of new life. Its
being breathed on by the Holy Spirit so that we receive the life of
Christ. The bible calls this the implantation of His word. The word
takes root in us and we begin to experience all the spiritual effects
through our new spiritual senses. We see the creation of God completely
different than before. We hear the wind in a different way than in our
unregenerate state. I like to say that we see a the light of the glory
of God behind the physical creation. It draws us to marvel at the
intricate nature of God who created all things. We begin to understand
that nothing exist without God first speaking it into existence. We are
wrapped up in the great mystery of the Word made flesh! But
Guthrie is talking about some children having saving grace before the
adults discern it. Some children are like the movie ET. They come upon
the outer relationship with a greater understanding than some adults
even tho they cannot describe it. I would not go too far in
making regeneration seem like a process rather than a happening. I read
that last part and something does not seem rite to me. I go with my
Presbys on this one. Its not in our interest condemn ourselves beyond
the biblical mystery. So we are always to dwell on the interest of
salvation rather then making our sin so big that it bars us from the
effects of the gospel. (a dark age neurosis) We are always in some kind
of prison... in the sense that we go from inability to ability in Gods
time, rather than by force of will.
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2359
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: TT.UU.LL.II.PP.s still bloom
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on: June 16, 2011, 08:18:10 PM
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MBG.
It
is good to be back. For the next two months or so I should have more
time. I enjoy the fellowship around God's word and even the different
viewpoints.
Yep,
Good to meet you and thanks for the
kind words. Look forward to lots of sharing in the future. I know it may
frustrate some who are looking for defining answers to all the
questions, but as you said I have pretty much reconciled myself to the
fact that I will never reconcile completely God's sovernity and mans
responsibility. So when I teach, I teach both and allow for some mystery
to exist, that God's ways and thoughts are greater than mine.
I
think it was William Guthrie, the well-respected Puritan scholar, who
gave what I though was the most balanced view of this topic I had heard.
If I can find this section, I will post it for all to read, but let me
summarize. Guthrie spoke of three different types of conversions
experiences, which were as follows:
1. There are some individuals
who are, as it were, saved from the womb (example - John the Baptist),
those uniquely set apart by God often for a particular purpose. These
would be a small number compared to the other two classes, but both
scripture and experience would seem to confirm that this does occur.
2.
The classical way in which most of us come to Christ. The Holy Spirit
first taking God's law and bringing conviction to our hearts. Showing us
our sin, judgement, and lack of righteousness. This being following by
the Spirit showing us the glorious truths of the gospel, Christ's
substitutionary death on the cross for our sins. Then by grace through
faith our trusting in Christ and being born again or regenerated. You
can see this pattern clearly in the Ethiopian eunich and , by the way,
this was how the Spirit worked in my life now almost 40 years ago.
3.
That there are those who are actively in rebellion against God, who God
through an act of His soverign grace saves in glorious fashion. As in
the first type of conversion, this is often for a specific purpose or
important mission which they will fulfill. The classic example here is
the apostle Paul.
So let me summarize. In cases 1 and 3 MBG's
position certainly fits. There seem to be cases in scripture where God
has elected certain individuals and chosen then for some important
purpose in His divine plan. It would seem that their future is certainly
marked out before hand. On the other hand, the position that KK and I
hold to concerning the general concept of man's responsibility to trust
Christ when presented with the gospel would seem to hold true for the
majority of humanity, with the exception of those special cases outlined
above.
So what is the saying: MBG believes in the sovernity of
God and KK in the responsibility of man. I stand with my friends and
brothers in Christ.
Bill
Thanks Bill... Kk
has been a good debater. To fill you in on what has transpired here Kk
and i started off a little bit more in agreement until he described the
christian experience exclusively like the twelve step ... not like you
have described here. Bill... i believe we exercise our faith- that too
is Calvinism. But I do not believe our choices are the causes of our
obedience. Rather there is a necessary spiritual desire that we obtain
through the means of grace that causes us to choose the good. Where as
Kk and i have been going back and forth about his idea of trading his
pride for Gods humility kind of thing. Glad to see you describe the
Calvinist position .. with one exception... we believe that we exercise
our own faith. Kk has learned that i like to argue and try to be
detailed. I always enjoy your Puritan threads.
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2361
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Three Dimensional Reality
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on: June 16, 2011, 07:48:35 PM
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MBG;
Care
to explain what verse I have perverted while you PROVIDE THE VERSES IN
PSALMS THAT CLAIM THE THREE DIMENSIONAL REALITY AS I HAVE ASKED MULTIPLE
TIMES?
Thanks.
"Lead me to the rock that is higher than I." Set
your heart on things above not on the things of this earth... for you
died and your life is hid with Christ in God. Nt sister verse.
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2362
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: T.U.L.I.P. blooms
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on: June 16, 2011, 07:32:39 PM
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So do you sin, are you a sinner, or did you sin? Is your sin past, present, and will you sin in the future?
I
am such a bad sinner that if i examined myself and searched for sin i
would not stop until i utterly destroyed my confidence that i was
assured i was forgiven. The gospel is not like this. The gospel allows
me to have sin that i do not know about and yet enjoy forgiveness. It
allows me to sin and not confess every sin and yet keeps the sin from
building up from day to day. I simply must understand how sinful i am...
enough for God to condemn me and if He were to mark my sins then who
could stand? So i take confidence that everyone i come into contact with
on a daily basis is in the same boat i am in. But God deals with me
not according to my sins but as a Father who loves me in-spite of my sin
and failure. Why does He forget my sin? Why did He remove my sin as far
as the east is from the west? Well because He took care of sin in His
Son but also it communicates to me that His love for me is as far as the
east is to the west. In other words He wants me to tell Him my sin
because He is ready to give me an assurance of His love based upon His
covenant with me.If i were to turn back because of my sin then i could
not find confidence in His word. But my sin leads me to grace and grace leads me to His promises. I cannot fail. Theres no were else to go. I have the answer.
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2367
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: T.U.L.I.P. blooms
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on: June 16, 2011, 10:57:03 AM
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"Cursed is any man who does not obey the whole law."
So you would state that you are cursed?
Youve
stated that the old man and our weakness is cursed. But we believe that
we died to the old man in Christ. So we no longer are identified with
our former way of life. We do not serve the sin nature as a slave. That
means we no longer are under the curse of sin as a slave. We also died
to the law when we were born again. We no longer are a slave to the law.
So you sir have taken this scripture out of context. Our identity
in Christ has freed us from the law and sin. Only slaves are under the
curse. We on the other hand are blessed with all the spiritual blessing
in the heaven-lies. Those who live by the law.. speaking of being in
bondage to the law are under a curse. Christ became a curse for us by
obeying the law. Because we are identified with Christ ...since He took
our curse ... we no longer are subject to the condemnation of the law.
The apostle says who shall bring any charge against those whom God has
chosen? Who is he that condemns? There is therefore no condemnation to
those who are in Christ Jesus.
I'm the culprit here, as
far as saying i'm cursed in the flesh, and blessed in the Spirit. I
have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer i who live but
Christ lives in me -- yet i don't always act that way. Sometimes i act
as if i am still a fleshly unBeliever. (Bet you do too.) You
say we are no longer a slave to the law. I never was. I was a rebel to
law, especially the Law of God. However i was under the condemnation
of the Law, and now i'm not. But i sometimes feel as if i am. (Bet you
do too.) As you know, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. But the rest of the verse is important too. Romans 8:1 "There
is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who
do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." So
by the complete verse i am not under condemnation in Christ Jesus,
walking according to the Spirit. But when i am walking according to the
flesh, that behavior is condemned even though i am not. On the other
hand there may be consequences and disciplining or chastening. Hebrews 12:5-11 "And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” "If
you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is
there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without
chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are
illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who
corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily
be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? "For they
indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for
our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening
seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless,
afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who
have been trained by it." K_k: So i may want to sound spiritual
and say i am no longer a sinner, that i always walk by the Spirit in
love and grace, but i've learned to get ready for some more "training"
when i pretend like that. He prefers complete honesty. It's a
priority.
Kk.. you need a set of commentaries because your
interpretations of scriptural text ....especially the verse about taking
heaven by force...as another example.. are not correct.... The
apostle is not saying that if we walk by the flesh we are under
condemnation. He just got done teaching that those who have the Spirit
have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. The apostle is
making a general distinction between those who have the Spirit and those
who do not...or who walk after the flesh. And he is also saying that we
act like those who walk after the flesh...we do the same things that
they do. But if you take the whole context of rom. 5 - 8 you will find
if you apply it as going in an out of Christ as tho we experience the
same as those who are out of Christ then your saying that Christ is not
able to keep us and we need to repent like the reprobate. But the
apostle is simply making a general statement in 8:1b He does not build a
case about assurance and then destroy it in the same verse.
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2369
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Forums / Politics Forum / Re: The Federalist Papers
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on: June 15, 2011, 12:53:38 PM
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This country and this people seem to have been
made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of
Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of
brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be
split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties.
Similar
sentiments have hitherto prevailed among all orders and denominations
of men among us. To all general purposes we have uniformly been one
people each individual citizen everywhere enjoying the same national
rights, privileges, and protection. As a nation we have made peace and
war; as a nation we have vanquished our common enemies; as a nation we
have formed alliances, and made treaties, and entered into various
compacts and conventions with foreign states.
A strong sense of
the value and blessings of union induced the people, at a very early
period, to institute a federal government to preserve and perpetuate it.
They formed it almost as soon as they had a political existence; nay,
at a time when their habitations were in flames, when many of their
citizens were bleeding, and when the progress of hostility and
desolation left little room for those calm and mature inquiries and
reflections which must ever precede the formation of a wise and
wellbalanced government for a free people. It is not to be wondered at,
that a government instituted in times so inauspicious, should on
experiment be found greatly deficient and inadequate to the purpose it
was intended to answer.
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2370
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Forums / Current Events / Re: Public Prayer
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on: June 15, 2011, 12:33:26 PM
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When people who do not believe in God show no
respect for those who do then the society is abusive. The only thing
holding back the abuse of treating people as personal possessions is our
christian heritage. There is no difference between our leaving our
first love and becoming a society that resembles those nations like
China who are communist. God is love and there is no other place to feel
love other than being loved by God. Men who dessert God ... leave the
opportunity to be loved because this world is only has two realities. An
existence of dread and death .. given over to dead idols. Or to know
God. Men who are earthly minded ...who believe there is no other hope
than to live and die have no real lasting connection to love or hope.
Reality is God coming into time. This is how we are to live.
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