2793	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Three Dimensional Reality	on: February 22, 2011, 01:48:45 PM
We need to see that Gods law is His will being carried out in time. We understand how God works by seeing that His divine sovereignty determines the existence of things and the sustaining of things. Our trust is really in things that are already spoken that will happen in our personal experience. We are only agreeing on this earth as to what has already transpired in the whole of history of the world that is before God as present. This is why we have full confidence that our faith will be made site because it does not originate from our will but from Gods decree.  This is why we are as it were hooked up to the divine power. What we have in Gods word is that by which we become what we are in Christ. We have access to power that is supernatural. Because the universe is under the absolute mixture of divine power that is exercised through divine will. We are promised if we pray according to this will that we get what we want. This means that we experience reality in this realm of the third dimension through faith. When we acknowledge God to be God in all things we are focusing on everything that we need to live a life of godliness. This focus is our looking and gazing on Christ. This is the way that we receive all that we need through faith. Christ is not only the Person of Glory but He is the full Truth in all of truth and in each truth.  This is why in His light we see light. Or we find the beatific vision. The beatific vision is our future salvation that we desire.
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2794  Forums / Main Forum / Re: 12-step programs on: February 22, 2011, 11:50:07 AM Please i am in my middle age. I have been through this kind of counseling and i understand. The damage is done and there are personal struggles with these personal demons. I dont mean demonic spirits .. i mean the fear, anxiety, lack of trust with social anxiety. We all must learn how to be brave. Remember that there is a private side to a religious community. My understanding of how to deal with ourselves in light of our intense anxiety is that we must focus on the physical .... our bodies and our diseases. This is why we need to take medication in order to relieve the stress related to the physical part of the anxiety. Then we need social interaction so that we can experience the burdens being carried by other people. This is only accomplished if we understand the true path to healing. God is more able to heal us of all of our pain in a mili second and provide for us connections with other people that we could not find anywhere. We must see that every person has a different set of problems and there is no one who has the answers to the specifics of the problem except God. This is what the bible calls the total answer if sought. It may appear to be incomplete to other people but if we are in a place where we are getting encouraged and we are being taught about grace then there is no reason why we should be encourage to find more anxiety. We do all of the planning by trying to listen to the counsel of other leaders and we attack the problem. But this is only one aspect of a much bigger way of redemption. The truth is that most of the greatest help comes to us by surprise. This is a world where we have the so called professional and then we have the person who can support the whole counseling techniques of the professional.  But God is working to bring all the circumstances in our lives to bring healing.  So everything we face is changing. As Solomon says there is a time for these different things we are confronted with. This is buttressed by our learning that there is nothing in life that is the same. One moment passes to a new moment and each moment is different. So we need to see that God is concerned with these things that cannot be seen and they change from one moment to the next  like our peace and happiness.  Truth is what we know about ourselves as individuals and we apply that truth in the way we think. This is why no matter what circumstance and healing we receive .. we cannot be absolutely sure that the whole experience was the reason that we were comforted. We do not see Gods hand behind the help. So we must be thankful for the level of healing but we cannot trust that it is all that God has for us. This is why our healing is moving from the pain of focusing on ourselves because of the anxiety ..it is moving to our forgetting our selves in the process of healing. So that the truth is always centered on who God is and who we are as the logical foundation of what we think about ourselves.   Reply Quote Notify

2795  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: February 22, 2011, 11:10:17 AM In our christian experience we find that we are the objects of the Fathers love. This means that God grades on a curve for us. He is teaching everyone of us on a different level in what looks like we have to many problems to over come. If we say that it depends upon us to trust in Gods works on this earth then we are not being honest about our own propensities to wander. We must see that anytime we look at our walk on this earth that we appear to be an incomplete work. Because all of us are individuals and we all must find a place in which we have the courage to go on. God is not asking us to put the world on our shoulders and trust Him. This is why our gifts that He has given us far out weigh our pay scale. Because God does not ask us to prove His sovereignty by our strength. His focus is granting us peace and strength so that we are enabled to endure what He has determined for us. We do not need to look to the rite or the left. Because we are all crippled in some ways God must work on this principle. He must only allow us to move forward when He provides us the enabling. All of our strength for going on is provided through His divine sovereign power in the grace that is the basis and the foundation for our confidence. We are walking down this path that is a place were we are shielded from the world flesh and Devil. Our sight is on our commander who walks before us and keeps us from going in the anxious way or the way of friction and trials. God must keep us from temptation.. sin... weakness and trouble by making our path straight and flat to walk on. He can only do this by over looking our sins when we fall... or forgetting our sin by removing them from us... and He must grant us illuminations to be what we are not. So that He causes us to dwell on His word and He strengthens us through His Spirit. This is why we look like an incomplete work of art because Christ makes our picture complete by going before us. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2796  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 22, 2011, 10:22:11 AM We are getting off the beaten path here. I dont want to talk about the struggles of other people because my struggles are just like alcoholism and a lack of strength to do anything about it. We all suffer all of our lives about some form of malady. Isnt it comforting to know that this was the story of the ot saints. You find them with personality deficiencies and struggles with sorrow and pain. This is why Jesus told us to not think of ourselves in a way where we were beyond the struggles of this life. There is no such thing in christian society as a hierarchy. All of us need grace and this means that we are powerless to change ourselves. Our troubles are not this addiction or that addiction but we are troubled by the corruption of our hearts. The problems are the greatest when we think we have arrived. Our needs are much greater than finding satisfaction in earthly relationships. We must shake off all these things that get in the way of being transparent before our God in prayer. We must find all of our confidence in Christ.  We must begin to turn our eyes away from our own addictions and problems. We must find the motive for change in Gods absolute sovereignty over all things. We will never be absolutely free if we do not find redemption and acceptance from God our Father. All of these other things will not provide the necessary satisfaction that we can find in our relationship with Christ.   Reply Quote Notify

2797  Forums / Theology Forum / Three Dimensional Reality on: February 21, 2011, 08:55:30 PM On this tread i want to talk about the third dimension of reality which is the spiritual dimension. I believe the Psalms teach the third dimension as that by which the other two dimensions are measured. I do not believe that we can understand reality unless we understand the spiritual dimension as a rule that defines the quality of life and the kind of disposition that we are going to enjoy. I will state first what the rule is. We know reality by trusting that God is absolutely sovereign so that we see all reality as necessary because God causes it be be. Any thought outside of this rule is a thought given to chance.  So we believe that the absolute sovereignty of God is the reality that determines our understanding as the most personal effects in experience in our holding onto this basic rule of reality that gives us the judgment of what is real. All other views are from a chance paradigm.  Reply Quote Notify

2798  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: February 20, 2011, 03:03:15 PM The apostle begins with a rebuke of the entire race of mankind because all mankind both given over to their own lust and the religious stand before God under condemnation in silence. But then the apostle says that Christ came into this world who is the righteousness from heaven who live the life of a God Man in perfect obedience died for sin and was raised to life. He ascended to heaven  and now all things have been placed under His feet. Then the apostle says that these sinners who have been given grace now are identified with Christ in His death and raised with Him in newness of life. This means that they have now become saints who have died to sin and the law so that the saints no longer live but Christ lives in them. But the apostle says that even tho we have an identity in Christ in which we have been completely sanctified and made dead to sin and the law ,we still have the remnants of sin in all of our members both body and soul. But we do not react the way we did in our old life toward sin and the law. Instead we see ourselves as always giving into sin but being freed from sin because of our identity in Christ. So the way we resist , sin , the world, and the burden of the flesh through the law is to rejoice that we belong to Another. We have graduated into a state of no condemnation. Now we have the ability to forget ourselves in light of our former ways and we can seek to know the love of God ... we have been given an eternal mindset. But then the apostle says that before time all of this reality in our unbelief and as Christians was pre ordained by Christ so that we had nothing to do with our present state of life. Not only did we not chose to die to ourselves and be raised with Christ but we loved ourselves to much to want to. So the apostle says that God is the focus and He will get all of the glory in His saving some men and in His eternal punishment of others because God alone deserves the rite to determine this. Now all of us are on this road and we grow into this reality in a dispositional sense ....as i have been describing. Even tho we have been saved we still need to go from living in a disposition in which we dwell on the world as silenced before God to seeing the end of sin and death in the work of Christ to dwelling on that we are as sinful in our new life even tho we no longer are under the dominion of sin and death. Then we graduate to dwelling on that we are no longer condemned or under the judicial charge of guilt. We now are loved beyond what we could ever prove by our good deeds. To dwelling on God ordering all things and its not about our dieing to sin but its a God centered universe and His glory is to be sought after and enjoyed. We turn our eyes off of ourselves and we actually do not have those old self images but we are caught up in the glory and the majesty of Christ. Are you still a child in the faith and remain in dwelling on the silenced stage or have you seen the light of the glory of God and you really have lost that sense of self so that you view the whole world being filled with the light of the glory of God? This will determine your understanding as a child of God or a father in the faith. Reply Quote Notify

2799  Forums / Main Forum / Re: 12-step programs on: February 20, 2011, 02:33:52 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on February 20, 2011, 01:11:15 AM mbG signature line:  "We must bring God all of our addictions and place them at His feet trusting that He alone will take away the desire and focus on His word as the only way that we will find joy in the midst of the sorrows of sin. If we put our confidence in mans rules and other men then we are spiritually dead." K_k:  What you don't understand, since you have never been connected to the 12 step programs, is that they focus on exactly that.  We bring God all of our addictions, placing them at His feet, trusting that He alone will take away the desire.  We develop a relationship of dependence with Him as our only hope. Honesty with ourselves, prayer/meditation to God, and service to others are some of the key elements of recovery.  The "program" as it is called, can be summarized very simply -- trust God with our whole lives, clean house with His help, and then help others to recover as He provides opportunities. For those who don't know already, the "serenity prayer" said in nearly all meetings is only the first few lines of the longer original prayer, (usually attributed to Reinhold Niebuhr) which goes something like this. God, grant me the Serenity To accept the things I cannot change... Courage to change the things I can, And Wisdom to know the difference. Living one day at a time, Enjoying one moment at a time, Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Taking, as He/Jesus did, this sinful world as it is, Not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will. That I may be reasonably happy in this life, And supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen. Kk i am not against prayers for healing. But this is a very dangerous prayer if presented as a creed. Serenity is great. The bible calls this resting in Christ. Not gaining serenity by acceptance ...courage and wisdom. I could accept Jim Jones and have the courage to follow him if i believe that taking the poison will get me to where my leader is going.  People practice these principles all the time. Every persons poison apart from the revelation of the knowledge of Christ is presented as his own remedy. Because praise worthiness is only real if it is compared to the Truth. So i would see this as "God grant me rest in Christ so that i accept everything that He has brought into my life. Give me the courage as a good soldier of Christ to reject everything else in the world if it is equal to or comes in between myself and Christ. So that i understand my identity as a victor and take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. I will reject everything that teaches me otherwise." This would be my first part of the prayer.    Reply Quote Notify

2800  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 20, 2011, 02:17:14 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on February 20, 2011, 01:21:47 PM The enmity between God and man is ended in Christ, because His death for our sins "evens the accounts".  But God knows which of us will persist in rejecting His reconciliation, and they will be "vessels of destruction" ultimately.  God's part is done, for He has reconciled the whole world to Himself in One Sacrifice.  Yet His hatred of sin remains, for that hurts His beloved kids. If a person rejects that Gift, which is the unending Life of His Son, all the way until they die, then they have chosen to remain as objects of wrath when He destroys and eliminates all sin and evil.  And though He knows which of us will choose destruction of self in the End, rather than be with Him in intimate union forever, still He gives them the fullest opportunity to repent and be reconciled with Himself, Who has offered total reconciliation until the no longer breathe. Be real sure that this is heresy before you pounce, my friend.  The trap door swings both ways.     Kk what you describe to me here is that you believe in that enmity exist between God and sinners. But here is how our relationship has been. I say that man is under the condemnation of sin while he remains in his sin then you come back with this God is a loving God and every man is related to God in the physical Father sense so now there is not condemnation. So now you are telling me this "If a person rejects that Gift, which is the unending Life of His Son, all the way until they die, then they have chosen to remain as objects of wrath". So instead of all of this obfuscation since you have been here your admitting to me that you agree with me. Kk you are like the guy who is like most of my armininist friends. Who are always pointing to the boat analogy. You know the boat is Gods way out of our own world of trouble. The boat is Gods connection to our troubles on this earth. Failing to admit that God orders the troubles as well for our own good and puts us in the boat which is eternal security. But you go farther than my armininist friends and present a picture to me of a boat sitting in the middle of a parking lot instead of the rough seas. The only conclusion that i can come to this is that Kk is the guy standing out in the parking lot waiting for them to be saved by your embrace..hehe.   Reply Quote Notify

2801  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 20, 2011, 10:18:59 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on February 20, 2011, 01:48:57 AM Now, now, mbG.  It isn't nice to try to trap a Brother, is it.... Satan is not the true physical father of any human being.  Only our Dad creates life and babies, it's not actually the sperm and egg donors.  So He is the physical Father of all people. And if a person is in rebellion against God, then spiritually they are chosing to be children of satan, the father of rebellion.  When such a "child of wrath" turns to God (with His empowerment and drawing, of course), and receives the Savior's unending Life as their own, then they are adopted into the Family of God, and are no longer alienated from Him, but are fully reconciled. He loves all His offspring, which includes everyone, but He will in the End cause the end of those children who choose satan as their father, as He has promised.  Christ's death covers all sin, but only those who accept His Gift, of Himself, receive the forgiveness that can only be found in Him.  All who reject His unending Life are thereby seeking self destruction. There ya' go, buddy.  Zap me hard.  Show no mercy.    So the enmity exist between God and an unbeliever? Rite? Reply Quote Notify

2802  Forums / Main Forum / Re: 12-step programs on: February 19, 2011, 12:51:32 PM Quote from: jenni on January 22, 2011, 10:58:13 PM p.s.  mbg, are you around?  I was hoping you'd weigh in. I dont condemn anyone who is working on his physical addiction. Especially if its going to kill them so they cant be around for their wives and children. I like to think that i can help someone who has a serious problem that stems from past hurts or they suffer some kind of psychologically debilitating disease. Because i believe most alcoholics suffer from social disorders. Ive never been drunk but have suffered from clinical depression in the past. I am a handicap. Not on any kind of drug tho.  God told me its because of the prayers of older saints that i am able.   So i know what it is like. Plus i have a handicap son that has displayed every possible disorder.    I believe the perfect world would be going back to having a personal doctor. Like a family doctor which knows these tendencies. This would probably be an economical issue that separates most of the population from having access to personal counsel that was normal in the past. So we are looking at this i believe like a kind of economical American rehabilitation system that controls the masses to keep people under the thumb of the rich. More and more our society has the pressure to succeed forcing people into a kind of dark age mentality ...into a kind of robotic process...which is like a circular functioning neurosis.  Replacing the patriarchal society with a public society that brings everything out into the public arena outside the rooms of the personal doctors and pastors and creating an arena of a one size fits all judicial process that is mainly economical.This has a serpent like quality to it as the neurosis.  Gosh..economical totalitarianism is a bummer. The people are more like wards of the state because the system of checks and balances is in the control of corporations and world banks. We need to step back and look at the overall political change that has crept up on us. So the kind of help is what you can afford. So i see this as an american society that is in reverse. So everything is like really messy. Each system put in place has some help but the promise doesnt match the percentage of recovery. So in my opinion there are a few things that can create the rite environment for a person to grow into a christian identity. Out of necessity people are force to get help from these programs. So i believe there is a physical dimension as far as addiction that they do good. But all good systems have a serpent like quality. So i see the need for proper religious instruction away from these recovery programs as absolutely essential for a person to have a good christian experience.   Now this is not a condemnation on any of my personal relationships but a general understanding from what i have read and observed. But my opinion is that if these recovery programs are married to the church then it because an economy of its own rather than a non profit function. But i understand the desperate need too and the system set up as a necessary help. Reply Quote Notify

2803  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: 10 Commandments versus Law of Moses on: February 19, 2011, 11:10:49 AM Quote from: Great2bHIS on February 19, 2011, 10:19:36 AM Quote But the sacrificial and ceremonial laws ceased when He fulfilled their real requirements.  The perfect Lamb providing the perfect Sacrifice was eternal redemption for us.  There is no need for another sacrificial system, but there is need for us to obey Him which is the same as doing His Commandments.  (Again, in His strength and ability, not in our own apart from Him.  It is the acting independently of Him that is sin, and sin is lawlessness.) Quote K_k:  So to anyone who has been teaching that the moral Law and 10 Commandments were done away with at the Cross, i have a word of advice.  Repent.   Laying the "law" on me are ya?  Duly Noted!   Quote K_k:  Don't you get somewhat tired of misrepresenting me?  I have repeatedly said that sin is lawlessness, it is acting as if there were no more Laws or Commandments, going our own way, mistakenly thinking we are independent of God. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness."  1 John 3:4 And right now aren't we seen through Christ as NOT having SIN?  Didn't He pay that price for us--FORGIVEN, removed, remembered no more, as far as the east is from the west?  His righteousness is the crown we wear, not anything we do! Which then would be translated as us not being "lawless"?  But rather law abiders in Him!  Either you believe that you are who/what He says you are in Him, or you don't?  To me, you are beating a dead horse KK, the flesh died with Christ, it was crucified with Him, so that now the life we live is in HIM.  In His Spirit. I know you wrote that to MBG, but it jumped out at me.  Reminds me of something Paul said in Galatians!   Humm, I think I see something.  Seems to me you identify yourself 'in Christ' with your flesh?  Perhaps that's why we have such different POV's! 2 Cor 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Quote "If you really fulfill the Royal Law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the Law as transgressors.  For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.  For He Who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the Law. "  James 2:8-10 K_k:  It looks like James understood the Commandments.  Wish we all did. Looks to me like James is reiterating that if you break one part of the law you are guilty of breaking ALL of the law!  That way you can't say to yourself or think in your own mind that "Oh, I'm not that bad, I only do a few bad things."  He's reminding us, that even one sin makes you a lawbreaker as in ALL of the law.  It's a combo pack, a "Whole", not a list of ok I'm good in that one, oopse, broke that one. I must say KK, you are as tenacious as I am & your argument is well thought out.   Still not buying it though!  This is what I believe: Romans 7  1Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?  2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.  3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.  4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 2 Corinthians 3  1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.  4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The Glory of the New Covenant  7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!  12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit Faith or Observance of the Law Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? John 4:21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” So--KK, I am not convinced by the words you say, I am convinced by The Holy Spirit that I serve in the newness of spirit & not the old letter of the law. Do the "Eternal"- 10 in stone, show up in the New Jerusalem stated in Revelation that is our eternal dwelling?  You've said numerous times the 10 on stone are "Eternal", so surely they have to be there? I've only noticed that it's God & The Lamb as the Tent, His Glory as the only Light, River of Life (Holy Spirit) and the Tree of Life. Obedience to His Spirit is BENEFICIAL & EXPEDIENT for me because He loves me & wants His Best ways for me.  He will never lead me astray or into sin/lawlessness or against His ways.  Always in Truth! Last word & bottom line ( literally!): Clearly--Christ fulfills ALL my requirements by BEING MY REQUIREMENT! (PERIOD!)   This is very good G2 ... you encourage me as well....always reading your post... Reply Quote Notify

2804  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 19. - OF CHRISTIAN LIBERTY. J CALVIN on: February 19, 2011, 08:40:09 AM 7. The third part of this liberty is that we are not bound before God to any observance of external things which are in themselves indifferent (ἀδιάφορα), but that we are now at full liberty either to use or omit them. The knowledge of this liberty is very necessary to us; where it is wanting our consciences will have no rest, there will be no end of superstition. In the present day many think us absurd in raising a question as to the free eating of flesh, the free use of dress and holidays, and similar frivolous trifles, as they think them; but they are of more importance than is commonly supposed. For when once the conscience is entangled in the net, it enters a long and inextricable labyrinth, from which it is afterwards most difficult to escape. When a man begins to doubt whether it is lawful for him to use linen for sheets, shirts, napkins, and handkerchiefs, he will not long be secure as to hemp, and will at last have doubts as to tow; for he will revolve in his mind whether he cannot sup without napkins, or dispense with handkerchiefs. Should he deem a daintier food unlawful, he will afterwards feel uneasy for using loafbread and common eatables, because he will think that his body might possibly be supported on a still meaner food. If he hesitates as to a more genial wine, he will scarcely drink the worst with a good conscience; at last he will not dare to touch water if more than 2135usually sweet and pure.  In fine, he will come to this, that he will deem it criminal to trample on a straw lying in his way. For it is no trivial dispute that is here commenced, the point in debate being, whether the use of this thing or that is in accordance with the divine will, which ought to take precedence of all our acts and counsels. Here some must by despair be hurried into an abyss, while others, despising God and casting off his fear, will not be able to make a way for themselves without ruin.  When men are involved in such doubts whatever be the direction in which they turn, every thing they see must offend their conscience. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2805	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love	on: February 19, 2011, 08:29:55 AM
Quote from: Kings_kid on February 18, 2011, 08:43:48 PM mbG:  "What kk is teaching here goes beyond modern day Catholicism. He is saying that God is a Father to all men .. first because God has ended the enmity between all men and God through the cross so now God loves all men the same and deals with all men like they are His special children. Woooo ... Unitarianism .. Liberalism... " K_k:  Sorry, romanism wouldn't claim me, and vice versa.  Paul says all mankind are the offspring of God in Acts 17:28.  Every person is His creature.  But we must be adopted into His family, grafted into the Vine Who is Christ. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.  For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”  The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"  Romans 8:14-16 Note that we have ask for, and receive Christ to be given the adoption of sonship. "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."  John 1:12 And because of what Christ has done, God is not counting our sins against us at this time, but has reconciled us to Himself, and calls upon us to be reconciled to Him. "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting mankind's sins against them, and has committed to us the Word of reconciliation.  Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.  For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."  2 Corinthians 5:18-21 mbG:  "This is even a works righteousness. Kk needs to read all the bible. In the end only one thing matters... our will. Kk if you do not disagree with my statement above then i will consider you a heretic." K_k:  There is no righteousness by works done apart from Christ, but there are good works that spring from His love in us.  You may consider me a heretic if you like.  Jesus was considered one, so i'm in wonderful company. mbG:  "Kk i will address you in a different manner.This does not mean that you personally are a heretic . Some people are deceived.  But it is teaching works righteousness so now i must talk to the way you write as if you do not believe in sovereign grace at all. For the sake of defending the christian position." K_k:  Please do defend the Christian position.  All you have to do is agree with Scripture and you'll have the best approach. "Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action), so that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work."  2 Timothy 3:16-17 Amplified The more we can agree on what the Word of God actually says, the more we will be like-minded in the Spirit.  Of course, some folks would still call us heretics if we disagreed with their pet doctrines... "Anyone who is not related to God as Father in the family...ie adopted ,is under condemnation in a hostile relationship with God ...having Satan as his father in identity. " Here is one that will prove you are a heretic... what say you? i want to s 2808  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: February 18, 2011, 03:54:00 PM Legalism: Legalism could be definied as any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God. In Paul's Epistle to the Galatians he warned them sternly about such false understandings of the gospel when he asked the offenders: "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Gal.3:3).  Legalism always seems to have one thing in common: it's theology denies that Christ is completely sufficient for salvation. That some additional element of self-effort, merit or faithfulness on our part is necessary to maintain a just standing before God. As an example, those who erroneously teach that a Christian can lose his or her salvation are, in essence, denying the sufficiency of Christ to save to the utmost. They believe their sin to be greater than Christ's grace. But we affirm that Christ's righteousness, which he counts toward us, is not only efficient for our salvation, but sufficient. His once for all sacrifice put away sin for all time in those He has united to Himself. His salvation also means that he not only saves at the beginning but preserves us to the end, sealing us in His perfect righteousness whose blood "reminds the covenant God" not to treat us as our sins deserve. Any attempt to add our covenant faithfulness as part of the price of redemption after regeneration is an "attempt to attain our goal by human effort" and thus a complete misapprehension of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must, therefore, reject any and all attempts to maintain a judicial standing before God by any act on our part. Salvation is of the Lord. - J. Hendryx Remove Reply Quote Notify 2809  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: 10 Commandments versus Law of Moses on: February 18, 2011, 03:23:31 PM I am not making a clear statement about any program just addressing the issues with Kk. In kks world sin is defined as addiction. So kk is not talking about grace but a way to overcome the addiction through programs. This is what Kk calls Christ living His life through us. So kks confidence is in the sermon on the mount as the way of grace in order to follow this idea of Christ living His life through us. Kk believes in a set of principles along with Christ in order to live a life that will in the end keep a person from annihilation. Kk believes that addictions can only be taken care of when a person comes to the point of complete surrender through the principles and the coercion of Gods discipline. Kk puts a lot of stock on the 12 steps to overcome addictions. This is the same principles in kks mind as the sermon on the mount. So kk has described God as a Father to the addicted as well as the non addicted or the ones who have been brought to the end of themselves. In other words our Father loves the world enough to coerce them to total surrender through the law. The law is whatever agrees with the sermon on the mount and is equal to the 12 step programs. Let me address Kk. Kk the 12 step has not saved one man from himself.There is no transformation apart from Gods life giving Spirit. Focusing on the addiction only leads a man to find light in experiencing freedom from drugs... sex... etc. It does not change a mans heart. We must bring God all of our addictions and place them at His feet trusting that He alone will take away the desire and focus on His word as the only way that we will find joy in the midst of the sorrows of sin. If we put our confidence in mans rules and other men then we are as dead as the man laying in the grave. Only Christ can save us from ourselves apart from the law. Reply Quote Notify 2810  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 18, 2011, 03:00:40 PM What kk is teaching here goes beyond modern day Catholicism. He is saying that God is a Father to all men .. first because God has ended the enmity between all men and God through the cross so now God loves all men the same and deals with all men like they are His special children. Woooo ... Unitarianism .. Liberalism... This is even a works righteousness. Kk needs to read all the bible. In the end only one thing matters... our will. Kk if you do not disagree with my statement above then i will consider you a heretic. Kk i will address you in a different manner.This does not mean that you personally are a heretic . Some people are deceived.  But it is teaching works righteousness so now i must talk to the way you write as if you do not believe in sovereign grace at all. For the sake of defending the christian position.  Reply Quote Notify 2811  Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: For Our Mbg on: February 18, 2011, 11:29:44 AM Pray for me this coming yr.. i need a job that is not as physically exhausting. It can be a part time job. In other words i am not making much money rite now. Reply Quote Notify 2812  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: February 18, 2011, 10:58:24 AM Man likes to reduce everything to a definition and further explanation out of a creed paradigm. I am not against creeds but God is the only one who is not complicated. We are complicated because we are subject to powers that make us do things that are not what we were designed to do nor are we able to fully recover what is lost. God on the other hand is very simple. Whatever He says He does. We need to understand that the 2 use of the law is how we become heavenly lawyers. Because this world is moved along by word. If we say that the christian experience is reduced to a list of sins.. needs.. and confessing automatons then we are reducing the christian life to a comparative of acceptance and rejection. Every mans excuses is the other mans unconfessed sin. We live in a world of a covenant loving God. This life is a "how long" life. Thats why the Psalmist defines word relationships in this new desire to future reality. I am not a secularist who reduces ever thing to we get what we desire. But I believe that Gods word defines reality. People say that God chooses to work through our prayers. I ask.. How much is our prayers and how much is God in the working? The comparison is not our wants from our needs and God will. The comparative is praying according to Gods will and His design to do greater things than we could ask or think. Here is where we separate the doctrines of demons of todays culture desire to fulfill lust through demonic tricks and the christian designed snake to swallow these false prophets tricky serpents. God tells us what to pray and we pray according to His illuminations in each of our lives. God not only answers the prayers but He design our prayers according to His word so that we will ask and receive more than we could imagine. This includes the negative prayers.  We are designed to be influenced by our way of thinking so that we love what is most beautiful in our minds. This is why our way of communicating is totally different from the worlds ways. Because we see things as really dangerous... as really ugly .. as really as destructive as they possibly could be. We are the ones who communicate with real ideas. Prayer is seeing things as God sees them. We do not entirely understand all the evils in this world but we have a way of growing down that would take a life time to grasp. Because man makes up new ways to sin as the world heads toward the new age. But we must see that learning how to think Gods ways is the connection to seeing beyond the intricately woven evil that man has worked in this world and getting to the heart of the problem so that common grace is obtained more and more with the destruction of all that gets in the way!This is praying down. We are involved in the kingdom of darkness in which we forge a path way of lite through force of praying down. Christ has broken down the walls. We break down the walls through praying down. Because we live in a time that is already and not yet.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 2813  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 18, 2011, 10:09:25 AM God love is radical because God must be God or it is a false image. Can you imagine being in Gods presence who is so powerful that it would be worse than  being 2 ft from the sun. Now think of it in terms of Gods total acceptance through our dependence. This is why when we draw near to Him we are acknowledging that His love to powerful and to deep than we could ever understand. The problem is not that God is in some way thwarted in showing us His love . The problem is that we do not have the power to grasp this love as it should be. This is why our humanity and its weakness is a world of blindness to us. First because we do not have the vision of all of the causes of our circumstances. We do not see all of the learning involved to bring us into this world, we do not see the genetic structures that hold us to a certain pattern of growth. Nor do we see the individual traits given to us that give us a spiritual form. But God sees us in the totality of our being both human , physical and spiritual. So He not only teaches us the way but He teaches us what we need to know about ourselves in light of the individual way we are to take. We are not automatons. This is why the Psalmist comes to God and relates his own weakness to Gods absolute rite as the sovereign. He says that God is angry with Him as a way of describing his own suffering. Look at the how long oh Lord will your forget me psalm. Does God forget His children? A yes answer would be heresy. No the Psalmist is describing his inward pain as a human being. We must relate to God as He is and not what we think He is. He not only communicates with us but He designs our hearts in order to receive all that we are to ask or think. He designs us through a life of circumstances and gifts.We are in a sense in God who sees every molecule. This is why it is absolutely necessary to think and feel in a natural way. Because it shows our ability to depend upon our God in light of all of the paradigms of person to person. This is why the Psalmist who is confronted with his own mortality is responding by weeping and pleading. God has given each man a self love to live. This love of self is not the same thing as denying self. This love of self is related with our awareness to understand life on the level of communication. In other words we receive God through the word implanted. This word is a revelation of who we are. We see ourselves because we have been given new senses. Gods revelation is not just of Himself. But He wants to bring us back to our original position in this holistic enjoyment of all that God has made us. You cant love with out it being a part of who you are. God does not come in and take over our faculties. Listen to me... He draws us in by revealing to us the true nature of things as what He is in His glory! Our eyes are full of the light of the glory of God! This is the beatific vision or its the holistic revelation of God in our midst! This is why the psalmist says that his eyes fail him. He has lost that vision. The vision of the face of God. This is described in other Psalms as being raised out of oneself to the heights of focus on the light of His glory. Or its related in human terms as being lifted up to a high mountain. The vision is holistic or its described as having our feet on the rock. We are secure and steady with a vision that has circumference ... or its and eternal vision. In other words we do not trust in the words of man totally. When we lose heart we lose the vision and when we experience a loss of vision we experience dismay. Our vision is our feeling of our own purposes being thwarted. Together with our purposes and total dependence on Him we are experiencing our sturdy mountain. This is why the Psalmist is weeping because his adversary's have wounded him in some way and he is looking at his own mortality.       Reply Quote Notify 2814  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: 10 Commandments versus Law of Moses on: February 18, 2011, 09:29:14 AM I love having a week off. Kk talks about our willingness to obey the law as an intrinsic freedom that we possess out of a sense of all things equal. Freedom is being able to either accept or reject without any prior inclination. So if i can get to a level here that will probably confuse kk let me take this liberty.  Balance in not the absents of a necessary power of domination which includes the spiritual senses and the emotional direction that defines the paradigm of the mind choosing what is most pleasing. Reducing everything to the will is not balance but christian secularism. He reduces the living parts to a robotic response and makes us all automatons to the law. Kks philosophy is freedom through automation. What i am trying to do is to put the flesh onto the bones of the will. This is why we have an explanation of God as anthropomorphic. I do not entirely agree with Kk that Christ was the angel of the Lord in the OT. I do not see Christ being mediated through angels. But rather Christ is Lord of glory who relates to us in anthropomorphic terms. Ot revelation of the Lord is the appearance of Christ in an anthropomorphic vision. So we think of God having human parts as eyes, hands, feet  , a face etc for the purpose of explaining the gospel of grace. That God enters time and space through this anthropomorphic man who was apprehended by faith through grace and not through the written law. The sacrifices were the requirement of the law in order to obtain forgiveness and receive the blessing promised from that obedience. But as you know the sacrifices could not bring salvation to man. This is why there was more direct prayers than through a priest or another man. But the people could address God directly in worship and prayer. Christ was present as the coming Redeemer who would save Israel from their enemies. They were looking for the revealing of God who seem distant and hidden because of His place of dwelling behind the curtain. Even tho the law had all of these stipulations yet God condemned them because they practiced sacrifices without involving the heart. In a sense they put the requirements in the place of relationship with this God with human parts. Why did they not understand salvation by faith? Some people will say they refused to obey even tho they had the sign of the covenant. In other words some people will say that obedience was required along with the covenant sign. But as you know Israel was meticulous with the outward obedience but in their hearts was all kinds of idols. This is why the gospel has always been by faith alone through grace alone and in Christ alone. Because covenant faithfulness was not a system as doctrinal compliance. Gods saving word was not the letter of the law but through the Spirit and the word. Obedience starts from regeneration of the life giving Spirit who causes a man to obey.  The ot distinguishes salvation from the systems of man. The problem is not that man does not order his ways to be successful. The problem is that mans thoughts go astray from birth. Man is born to develop his own way. There are only two ways. The way of grace which is God coming down to man so that it is explained in terms of an understanding of who God is. A covenant keeping God whos love is from everlasting and who is faithful, kind and full of compassion. This way is a way of grace in which man is totally dependent on God. The other way is the way of man who builds his tower of babel with hard work and intricate planning. Gods way is provision from day to day. If all things are equal then man will reverse this world view. It really is grace opposed to mans systems.      Reply Quote Notify 2815  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 17, 2011, 11:56:57 AM The anger of God is displayed in the force of evil. Because evil is always present in its natural ability. So when we say that grace pre determines the advancement of evil we are saying that we are involved with the power of hate that is present in some level where grace is not understood correctly. This means that all evil anger is a graceless disposition in our musing.  God determines the level of evil that we are confronted with since we are powerless in ourselves to overcome evil. We are confronted with a universe of hateful corruption. This is why the Psalmist addresses God as having anger towards believers. Because God decrees whatsoever comes to pass including all the anger that is expressed to us. We live in a world that is cursed with an inability to react in a selfless way and the more evil that is present the more anger is to be resisted. But we cannot resist the force in ourselves. We must have grace... we must apply for grace and we must understand that Gods decreeing disposition towards us flows from heaven and works in our experience. We are powerless in ourselves to overcome our own corruption. Every sin and weakness must have pre conditioned grace as our inner power to endure. Grace must precede all of our experience. I mean it even grants us freedom from what we do not understand about ourselves and others. We live in the battle of desires. But we do not fight the our evil tendencies through direct resistance. We fight our corruption through the Spirit and word. This means that we are taught a way to advance as the way to have a blessed future. Now there is this love-hate passion at war within this struggle. Expression of hate is growing down and expression of love is seeing the power that so powerfully works in us ... or its feeling the power in the event flowing through us like a current. Growing down is magnifying the hate that is in this world for the purpose of arguing for our cause. This is the negative side of pleading the promises. Our problem with our vision of this world and the evil that successfully working both in the things we see and the unseen is that we do not consider that our knowledge of evil is not necessarily a personal evil. This is why i think that God works in us in many different ways in the advancement of His kingdom in groups of lovers or resistant soldiers. You see this in David ...God did not decree for David to build the temple because He was a man of war. Obviously David was familiar with blood hatred. But at the same time God accomplished His purposes through that level of resistance. Then you see God judging others after God had worked through them to accomplish His purposes because they had taken the hatred upon themselves. Any time we entertain false ideas of our power as it relates to personal evil and hatred we are expressing hate toward the ways of God to work in the future of our lives.  Now you see this is the way of the Psalmist to plead his cause in his own weakness and the magnifying of his weakness by his accusers.I do not think the psalmist is saying that God is angry with the psalmist but that the anger he is receiving from the accusers and his own consequences of sin is the power that God has put in him to plead for Gods unfailing love and to plead for complete victory. Gods unfailing love is His gracious gifts to us because He is faithful and kind. This is Gods disposition toward His own children. This is what we mean by grace proceeding corruption. We are saying that God begins this work in us and He finishes it. Any time we confront opposition we are resisting to blood. Grace teaches us there is no hope of survival unless we stand on Gods goodness and kindness.So in pronouncing that God is angry at us is a self curse. When we curse ourselves we are expressing our own personal anger that was never taught as righteous anger. The way of blessing is a way of reasoning. This way of reasoning is a gift of grace that God has conditioned us as a gracious passion that we will believe that God has more than we could ask or think in our future. This is why we do not reduce sin to an action but an understanding of the kind of power in us that we are to resist.       Reply Quote Notify 2816  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 16, 2011, 02:52:28 PM God loves us in a definite way. He is the perfect Father. We can come and sit in His arms and talk to Him about anything that is bothering us. There is no sin... no sorrow... no bad news... no sickness... no depression that God will not attend to. Because He desires for us to become happy... fulfilled ... free and complete.. healthy and successful. He works harder than anyone on this earth to provide for us a way of happiness. You see the problem is that we do not have a comparison on this earth. Because our faith is so small then we do not believe that we can express ourselves in a positive... negative or desperate way so that we will feel we have been offensive to Him. God is available to get to the bottom of the problems of this earth. He is the most listening counselor that has every circumstance in our future in the palm of His hand. You see we learn how to express ourselves and the most free.. .the most loved... the most cared for by our relationship with our heavenly Father. This secret relationship is filled with secret reminders from our perfect Father. He leaves us notes everywhere saying that He cares for us and will provide for our healthy happiness. Oh let me tell you .. there is no one who gets as mad as our Father when we are used or abused. He walks rite in the middle of the trial and pronounces victory as a warrior and a fighter for our cause. He tells us ... My child come to me pour out your hearts to me. Give me the trouble. Let me prove that i am a sovereign Lord who comes to your aid. Let me draw near to you so that you will come into my lap and let me give you a hug. You see if you listen really good. If you still your soul like a weaned child with its mother. If you are able to come and ask... plead.. knock.. then our Father will open his pockets.. He will open Himself to us and sup with us. Just imagine the God of the universe who can do what ever He wants will come and make a whole life time of trouble disappear in one second. Have you seen this promise before you ask? Do you believe that He is present and the only help in times of trouble. God loves us beyond our understanding of a perfect Father so don t think that He will be offended by what you say to Him.    Reply Quote Notify 2817  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 16, 2011, 02:32:41 PM Gods love is so much bigger than we could ever imagine or conceive. Because His love is the source of all the good in this world. This is why Gods love is narrowed down to a small gift but described in terms that compare the greatness of love to the size of the universe. Because Gods love is present where ever God is present. This is why our eyes are full of light of the glory of God anytime we experience His love. Because Gods love only goes one way and it consumes us as the object. There is no sorrow on this earth in which Gods love cannot overcome. We understand that we take up a very small pin point presence on this earth. This is why we cannot all together break out of this mixture of love and sorrow. If we had the strength and the presence of space to observe the truth about this universe we would experience a much greater portion of the love of God. Since we do not have this vision of the beauty of the vastness of this universe or the understanding of the glories of heaven then we must find a revelation of the love of God. Because God comes to us in our own skin. This is why God has made us to experience His love by looking on Him in His word. With this book there is the ability to desire to know the height and the depth and the length of Gods love. We have been given the Spirit who lust for control of our hearts. This is our gift that we can focus and desire to meet God. Instead of God beginning with demands He gives us the ability to understand Him by His loving us. Instead of God demanding that we love one another first He loves us through others in order to display His love to others.We have a God who we are drawn to in order to be consumed by His love so that we might share this love. This is why salvation is in Christ alone because there is nothing that we can do in order to say that there is something that we consider that is better than Christ. God proves that He is good enough to have no other rivals. This is why our desires are blessed. Because they cannot be thwarted. God has given us His love by putting in us a desire to focus on His love alone and to enjoy the effects of the goodness of that love. He has promised to love us first and He reminds us over and over again of the greatness of that love. We cannot make an agreement with our sorrow to replace Gods promise of this greater love with any other rival. Gods love is a stream that comes from Heaven and it fills our bellies with His goodness as if we were enjoying a feast. This love flows out of our hearts and produces life like steams of water from a fountain. This is being raised up to climb up to the heights of the experience of Gods love by looking on the light of His glory. When God becomes to us the most beautiful and powerful person we could look upon. When we experience this the effervescence of His glory then we get filled up with Gods love and goodness.This acts as a purifying experience that we are drawn to a forgiveness that is beyond this earth.   Reply Quote Notify 2818  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: February 15, 2011, 08:39:52 AM Its interesting that the angels are invisible messengers who are working in this earthly environment to produce these physical circumstances that go on around us. In the ot you have this angel of the Lord who wrestles with Jacob and Jacob prevails but has his hip moved so that he has a limp. Now this story that was passed down was part the ot idea of power and strength. Yet i do not believe they focused on Jacob as much as on these powers from heaven connected to the ot events that come straight from the throne of God.I do not think they were just focused on how the power worked in them. So you have this angel who i believe was thought about as causing physical ailments and stigmas. This i believe is related to these penitent psalms of which i believe are focused on this supernatural seal that was part of the strength .. it was the oil poured on the king that gave him the seal. So these ailments from sin and weakness in the minds of these ot saints was related to this angel that Jacob wrestled with. Now this interesting part was that being a part of this covenant community was prevailing like Jacob over this angel so that he became their defense against their enemies. This is why you see the psalmist sending the angel of the Lord out against his specific enemies. I think the psalmist was penitent toward his own sin but was aware that he could prevail with God and ultimately find his redemption in this kind of supernatural sealing. This sealing was experiential so that one victory led to greater confidence and further extension of Gods kingdom. It is interesting that the angel comes up from the east with the sealing of the living God. A clear reference to physical and spiritual protection. But there were foreshadows in the ot wars of this same kind of power and protection. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the sealer but we can gain more of the experience of this sealing by praying for the Spirit in this way of protection. Or fellowshiping with the Spirit and pleading the promises as a future protection in our own lives. But there is this relationship between angels and our personal weaknesses. David actually was saying do not use the angel to discipline me but send him to attack my enemies. This is all related to  the experience of sealing.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2819  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 14, 2011, 10:08:27 AM Radical love is Jesus. The bible says that God is love.  First God loves all man in a general way in that God does not express His anger toward man in equal punishment of mans sin. God withholds His judgment because He gives man a chance to repent. God is the guy who gives chances to man every moment of mans existence. He is not just a second chance God. This is expressed by the definition of grace. Every breath that man takes is proof that God is a loving God. Mans day of death is decreed by God. The idea of common grace is impractical. Special grace is reality. Because common grace is really from a looking back view we have as we measure society in the eyes of special grace. In other words special grace is a resistant paradigm to evil in general. We are always in the mode of defense. We resist in in the future experience in order to see common grace. We look back as see evidence of common grace. This is why special grace is determined to be successful because God works through His covenant love. We need to understand that Christ was king from all eternity. The expression of this love is through the earthly king in the root of David. Because Christ kingdom is a word kingdom. The whole of mankind is related to Christ through the word of salvation. We do not appeal to mans moral nature in order to see change but we hold onto His word and we will see salvation. This word is drawn out of the causes of what exist and how it exist. So we say that all reality was in the mind of God prior to creation and it was decreed by God as in the succession of time as if it was already existent before time. So that no matter what generation in time views these things as real by their existent ...we know that God who has lasted from one generation to another has spoken the word of salvation as our only sure word. Because this universe is made up of two types of men ... those who see and those who are blind.     Reply Quote Notify 2820  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Love on: February 14, 2011, 08:51:50 AM Kk does not believe in conscious judgment or anger. He may argue against my saying this but he believes that the consequences of sin are dealt with in two ways. One is that Christ death made available the possibility that man could escape judgment if at the end of the day man gave more of his will over to God. So men are all loved by God through the redemption of the cross but its up to man to make that redemption a conscious redemption. So Kk has not explained how the bible says there is no one who seeks after God. The bible says that God is the one who seeks after man. Then Kk says that sin is dealt with through annihilation. So Kk says that salvation is caused by the will of man because Christ obtained righteousness for all man so that God loves all men the same...his words "God is no respecter of persons." So kk does not believe that God is angry with the wicked because kk says that God annihilates the wicked. So that even tho God is eternal His anger is not expressed in eternal consciousness. We know that all reality is purposed to the end out of the causes of its existence. So that you understand something to exist by its causes... its means... and its ends. God has made all things for His own purpose. The whole creation has its personal experience determined by the end for which it was created. If a thing exist then it is the same in the cause means and ends. This means that Gods eternal attributes are all expressed to be conscious ends or there would be no connection to the nature of God as the author of those attributes. In other words if God is an angry God who must punish sin then this never changes in the causes means and ends.  If we say the end is annihilation then we are divorcing Gods anger from His eternal conscious attitude toward sin.  If God has an eternal nature then that it is an eternal conscious expression. This is why the bible says that God never changes. Any other definition of Gods attributes makes Him less than God.   ee the smooth way you form your words in order to skirt around the plain teaching of scripture.