3046	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Obedience from love vs fear	on: October 10, 2010, 02:13:49 PM
I dont think you can gain ground in thinking there is a process here but  by this association with these powers... guilt ...fear... shame.. or hate...these are all laws in my understanding... these laws are a power to inflict the punishment over the soul in some ways. I think the bible presents this concept as the law of sin and death. I think you must treat of of these powers as enemies or curses to the health of the soul. I am speaking about a mixture of the rite and the wrong in fear and hate and shame with a tendency to be wrong. I always use reverence to distinguish fear with wrong fear. Some people have weaknesses in this area .. The reason i say this is because there is no time where we do not in some ways have a relationship with sin. And then sin is encouraged in the guilt ... fear.. etc. So there is this relationship we have as individuals to certain sins that we know about and there is a mystery of sins that we do not know even tho they lie dormant to rise up in us at some future date. There is a relationship we have to sin as we have to how we view ourselves... who we think we are. This is why they all are enemies to the soul because all of them have a kind of image they present to us about ourselves that holds us in some ways to how we view the world. In my opinion these powers  are most destructive to mind because they make us sullen and hard hearted. They present an opposition that holds us under the domination of a way of thinking and we are always tempted to  think that the answer is out there and not in here. In this way we are the only one who knows what kind of power we are fighting against as we are obligated to be under their power. This is why assurance is so important to ongoing faith.  In my former yrs i had the wish that sin would be less able and i would create .. kind of like a second life of Christianity. I would at some point graduate from the tendencies to find myself feeling desperate under temptation ... to being strong and unbending toward temptation.But this is why i think there is a relationship we have to them as enemies because the more we grow the more we see how deeply rooted they are in us and the more we see how they are influencing our daily lives. Instead of thinking we have become proficient in  overcoming these powers of sin.. guilt and shame we begin to see how prevalent they are in us. We grow by knowing sin (this foreign mind) better than we know the act of sin. This is why the christian experience is like this a wavy line. It goes from getting close to the effects of the new man to going down and feeling as if sin is more than the numbers of the hairs on our heads. We sort of shun sin and rise in our worship and then come down to see how prevalent sin has the influence in our guilt and fear and shame. The reason that we have so much religion today is because we focus on sin as a deed instead of a heart condition so we attack sin at the branch instead of through the means of grace.. .the experience of Christ so that we get to the root. A man who goes to the root of sin goes down to the depths of his own heart. Not to exposes his own sins but to find grace at the bottom.
Reply Quote Notify

3047  Forums / Break Room / Re: narcissism. on: October 09, 2010, 12:36:17 PM Did you know that the story everyone avoids is from a God who says i am only pleased in myself? And Jesus said.. worship me or you will be found to love yourself to death. So the Devil is the most narcissistic. Because the Devil says to worship him. Why do we believe that God is not narcissistic and the Devil is? Because God controls the Devil... the Devil thinks he does everything he wants but he is on a leash like a dog. Can we use the term narcissism to get a dig at a religious system? Can we be narcissistic if we try to please men and God? Can we appear to be narcissistic if we are confident and stout- hearted about our victories that Christ has already attained for us? Think of it like this... Christ comes to earth ... humbles himself and dies for sin... is raised to life... and is seated as the only authority to be worship as the ruler of all of the earth. He says that He gives us that resurrection power. So how can we be dogmatic in our identity and not be accused of being narcissistic?Unless of course we act like it is impersonal.  Well ladies... its the different sides that define their point of view. The Devil comes along and says if God is God then let Him deliver you.  The universe is defined as only two kingdoms. I would hope that we be narcissistic (as Calvinist are accused of in this religious environment.) in the rite one. Of which you have encouraged me to be.  And the questions are extended for you ... they are not rhetoric. Reply Quote Notify

3048  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How Does America "Presently" View God? on: October 09, 2010, 12:08:19 PM Every nation is destined to become godless. This is why we believe that God is sovereign over the universe because we start with the presupposition that the authority of man is corrupted. Man goes astray from his birth and will not heed to the voice of God because he is like a serpent... his bite is the leading behavior in his power to rule. You cant even charm the leader to change...as you have seen in our religious tendencies to be ineffective in our bringing the gospel to bear on the last 3 generations.  We definitely are charming... hehe. But the truth is that it is better for a wicked generation of leaders to go away and lose their power like a still born child. We can thank God that He is the last judge and He will sweep the wicked rulers away in His eternal punishment. But we must endure the threats and violence that evil rulers bring.  The problems are not a lack of common sense in man. The problems are that men go away from God from birth. They will not submit their minds to God so the only other way is their own way and that way is plotting evil against their neighbors. Because men are alienated from God they will destroy men... the righteous in order to keep power or to gain more power. They ruin lives on the way up the ladder. The righteous see and they entrust their entire lives to the one who judges righteously. Because God will not let the helpless go hungry. The natural flow of a society that is godless is to go after the people who are helpless. This is why God says for the rulers to kiss the Son lest He be angry and you be removed out of the way. Or you be blown away like chaff. Because God is watching. God is going to protect the widow .. the orphan and the helpless. Because God has endured through all generations. Men come and go... leaders come and go.. when they die they are remembered no more. Oh we may give them lip service but their power to rule is no more. The reason that we do not have a God centered universe is because we live like we are going to last from one generation to another.  We must see that we live by being reminded that God is sovereign over all the ages. This is why God has left us a record of His bringing men down and raising other men up. God looks in reality and it is done. We must see that God is awesome in the heavens and He does whatever pleases Him on the earth.  We can trust from this reasoning that whatever happens in the future on this earth is only a very short time in comparative to eternity. Is our vision of the past on the rite things? Do we look to Gods absolute authority to bring down nations and raise up other nations? Do we see that God is going to do as He pleases and we must find all of our hope in Him for our future. God never changes... when the foundations are being destroyed then the world we live in becomes very volatile from one day to another. Can we gain power in looking to God in worship so that we find the glory of God going out unto the ends of the earth. Can we sense... see... feel the love of God that extends until all eternity. Or are we dependent on some one else to take that place?  When we worship God as He is then we will be surprised by what He does in the future. Reply Quote Notify

3049  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Kingdom of God on: October 09, 2010, 11:46:18 AM Quote from: squalltorpedo2 on October 09, 2010, 11:08:13 AM Hey Tom!!   I wish you and your team best wishes for beating FSU!!! Go Miami...and my Gators at home vs. LSU.  :  ))) Thanks STP... i hope Gators win today... and we got a very mature d... so i am looking for big things from this U team. You and i have been football freaks since our young yrs. You played corner which is probably the toughest position on the field in terms of physicality and speed. I was a qb so i like being the leader in the huddle. Thanks for the support... and i am loving reading your post.... you bring so much clarity to this forum my brother. Bless you in your trials.  Remove Reply Quote Notify

3050  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Kingdom of God on: October 09, 2010, 10:38:26 AM Now in this section you have God who is most holy and mysterious. You have a separation of God from the rest of creation. Because God is greater than any power in creation. His is most beautiful on His throne... He is most powerful in His appearance and sound and He is most aware in His authority over these conscious paradigms. This is why there is a response of pure worship in two ways. Because one who has seen God will fall down and worship Him in this illumination as He is God.. so there is this order of worship... from around His throne... revealing God as God is in these paradigms of authoritative creatures and then the response of the elders and the created order.  These paradigms are taught to us because because they are divinely eliminated to us in this inward life giving desire. The saints would say that the word was like a fire in their belly. This is the holistic illumination of how God reveals to us Himself with these creatures as authorities over these paradigms. Because they have knowledge and insight by their searching in communicating God so that we respond in worship of God. God looks upon the heart of man.  God sees in acting in us to gain more authority over our understanding of the realities of eternal verities. These creatures act in Gods will to bring about this knowledge that the Holy Spirit illuminates to us so that we are aware of these different searching s and we know God by these new conversions from these illuminations. What we need to understand is the authority of God as He is all glorious... the power of God as He has control over all things... the revealing of God as a man... and the kindness of God as He is our Father- with a special attention to the personal details of our hearts and circumstances.  When our hearts are taught by the word then we are made aware of this divinely inspired response to these paradigms of authority over the evil forces in this universe... our needs are met and we respond in the worship of God... for if God does not move to look upon us then we are most miserable because we are as it were shielded from Gods awareness. God acts upon us in a very orderly fashion. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3051  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Kingdom of God on: October 07, 2010, 11:56:41 AM I have always meditated on this Psalm about the voice of God as it relates to the events of a storm or hurricane passing over. The voice of God is this great event that no man can prevent. In some ways we all are subject to its effects ... whether we are in the storm of we are shielded from it. This is probability the closest we come to understanding this awe and reverence for of the sounds that are made to enter our ears as Gods way of reminding us of His greatness and His majesty. Do you ever fear the storm more than you stand in awe of its power? Now this is why we struggle with these things because we do not connect the power of God with these events.  But we must learn to look beyond the event. We must look to God as the source of every event that we experience in this life as a reminder of what God dwells in that comes from His throne! God is both awesome and beautiful. When we see the awesomeness of God we are made to feel secure ... knowing that God has come to us in His divine presence to bring peace to our hearts in effects of the event and the pleasure we feel after the great rumblings. Because peace is experiencing God as He is.  Do we see that God orders these weather patterns to us personally? We are in between to kingdoms ... the earthly kingdoms and the heavenly kingdoms. One is predominately the kingdom of Satan... and the other is the Kingdom of God. But God orders these events to prove that He will protect His children from the events that are on this earth ... seeing that the weather is not in control of man. So that God brings a destructive fear into the hearts of men.. but at the same time God subdues mens desire for destroying other men. But we know that this subduing is only for a short time and then men go on in their sin. But we who know this awesome God have markers of Gods faithfulness to protect us in ways we know about ... and there are mysterious ways that only God knows. But if we know God then we will experience the peace of God by looking at Him in the awesome power of His rite to rule and we will rest in this peace. This is the eternal life that is surrounds the throne of God.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

3052  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Kingdom of God on: October 07, 2010, 11:32:31 AM I have started in chapt. 4 since i had memorized the last 3 chapters a while back. This is going to be a mind blowing experience for me. There is much symbolism so its difficult for me to put this in some kind of parallel to our experience in this life. But one of the them is the view we have of the rainbow. God is very much concerned about the appearance of beauty as expressed in chapter 4. When i speak of vision i am making a distinction between the doctrine of inspiration. What does it mean to be in the Spirit? We know that the Spirit dwells in us and we are in the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God eternal. There is a distinction between God breathing inspiration and the Gods method of transporting someone from one place to another. John did not just receive Gods divine revelation but he actually appeared in the local throne of God in heaven. This is the bibles teaching that God is all glorious. That God dwells in inapproachable lite. But the lite that reflects is a rainbow. Its not as it appears to us as just being bright. But there are two things here... one is the beauty of God and the other is the order of beings who worship God. God is eternal life ... He is present in giving us His life. We can say that God is present from His throne and every space in the universe is inhabited by His royalty. I was thinking yesterday of the most beautiful object on this earth. We see the different colors of creation but these colors are all muted by sin. Our eyes translate these colors of the objects from the lites reflection of the pigmentation of the object. But these colors do not have the clarity that colors have in eternity.  We are looking here at a local throne room with a door. It is in some ways an eternal procession of the worship of God. I think that there are events and things that appear to us in this life.. like our worship and the rainbow that give us  a glimpse... a symphony orchestra... the storms that pass over us... that being through a dark glass ... of what Gods ultimate worship.. the ultimate beauty... the attraction of the colors.... the appearance of the heavenly beings.. that far transcends this earthly appearance. This is going to be a journey for me.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

3053  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Making your election sure? Why if I am elected? on: October 05, 2010, 07:25:10 PM Here is the context.... just as a start. 3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.  5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.  10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  12So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.  16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."[a] 18We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.  19And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Reply Quote Notify

3054  Forums / Theology Forum / The coming of the great Apocalypse on: October 05, 2010, 11:54:37 AM I am about to start on the book of Revelation again in memorization with the goal to get the whole book. The kingdom of God is the most glorious vision on this earth. The vision of the kingdom is what makes us live above this present world. It helps us to live in the vision of the future world. Our earth is not going away... it is going to be renewed by fire. We will have access to heaven and earth. This is why we look to eternity because our transportation in eternity is going to be by vision i think. We have examples of human beings leaving in appearance in one place and appearing in another. Even tho the apostle journeyed through a lot of terain that was filled with danger where he had sleepless nites.... yet Philip was transported in an eternal way to his destination to bring the gospel and then he appeared again in another city. The only way that we can experience eternity on this side of heaven is to have a heavenly vision of the glory and majesty of God. We  find a certain taste in the vision. There are all kinds of parallels drawn with the present circumstances of this life. There is the eternal light... the examples in creation to the beauty of God... the expanse of the universe to give us a vision of the attributes of God. The parallels to believing to the mysteries of God. One day this vision will become sight. We will have all of these new circumstances to give us instant changes in our abilities to be transported. Will we have a life on earth to some kind of responsibility like we have now? Is it going to be a universe where the full light of the glory of God shines and reflects off of the ultimate beauty of Gods creation... the gold and all of the stones that glitter? Will the waters be so pristine and refreshing that we cannot fathom its refreshment? Well i am going to take a trip into the future and write something about it here.   Reply Quote Notify

3055  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: October 05, 2010, 11:32:04 AM Since for unbelieving men religion seems to stand by opinion alone, they, in order not to believe anything foolishly or lightly, both wish and demand rational proof that Moses and the prophets spoke divinely. But I reply: the testimony of the Spirit is more excellent than all reason. For as God alone is a fit witness of himself in his Word, so also the Word will not find acceptance in men's hearts before it is sealed by the inward testimony of the Spirit. The same Spirit, therefore, who has spoken through the mouths of the prophets must penetrate into our hearts to persuade us that they faithfully proclaimed what had been divinely commanded ... John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion 1.7.5. Compare Scripture with Scripture. False doctrines, like false witnesses, agree not among themselves. William Gurnall The Scripture is to be its own interpreter, or rather the Spirit speaking in it; nothing can cut the diamond but the diamond; nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture. Thomas Watson You all have by you a large treasure of divine knowledge, in that you have the Bible in your hands; therefore be not contented in possessing but little of this treasure. God hath spoken much to you in the Scripture; labor to understand as much of what he saith as you can. God hath made you all reasonable creatures; therefore let not the noble faculty of reason or understanding lie neglected. Content not yourselves with...divine truth...you accidentally gain in conversation; but let it be very much your business to search for it, and that with the same diligence and labor with which men are wont to dig in mines of silver and gold. Jonathan Edwards The Scripture is both the breeder and feeder of grace. How is the convert born, but by "the word of truth" (James 1:18)? How doth he grow, but by "the sincere milk of the Word" (1 Peter 2:2)? Thomas Watson Remove Reply Quote Notify

3056  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Predistination and Islam same as Calvinism on: October 05, 2010, 10:58:43 AM KK wrote...We cannot deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him apart from His help, neither will He come inside us to save us unless we desire Him, hunger and thirst for His righteousness, seek His Kingdom more than our old self lives.  He leads us to Himself and works with us to become willing to receive His unending Life, or keep Him out of our hearts as long as we keep our heart-doors closed against His love that would transform us. All of this salvation happens at one time. If you look in Acts receiving the Holy Spirit is being saved. Its called the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does a convicting work on the heart of man so that a man believes the full message of the gospel. Because the Holy Spirit reveals the truth about Christ.  When Christ was baptized by John in the river Jordan the Holy Spirit descended upon Him like a dove. This event was the beginning of His ministry. The Holy Spirit filled Him with power so that everything He accomplished as a man was done by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then you go to John and there Christ promises His disciples that He would send the great comforter upon His ascension .... the Acts account was not many days hence from His ascension. This term was Christ baptizing the church with the Holy Spirit. Before the coming of Christ...John preached repentance unto salvation. This repentance was under the weight of the OT law.  The OT repentance usurer the people into all of these ceremonial laws. Salvation has always been by grace through faith in Christ alone. But there were a lot of these ceremonial laws that were tedious and binding. The temple worship was very local. Gods presence was in the Holy of Holies because the people were unclean. But when Christ came He rent the curtain that separated the people from the presence of God so that the new way of salvation was to enter the eternal throne of God...to go directly where God dwells and speak directly to Him in prayer. This is a new way of repentance as well. Instead of it being overshadowed by all of these other intermediaries ... salvation is offered with the focus of repentance of trusting in and relying on Christ. Because Christ had accomplished the work so the New Covenant people were looking back at the work already accomplished. New covenant people do not need to look forward with all of these shadows of Christ in the old ceremonial law. It is much easier to be taught something when it is historical. This is what Acts calls the full gospel. If you look there you will find there was a work of the Spirit that John preached and a work of the Spirit post Christ work. This is where things get difficult. Is there a difference not only with the saving message but how the Spirit manifest Himself to new testament believers? In looking at the entire circumstances in Acts ... i think it is more than just a secret work on the heart of man in salvation. There is more of the Holy Spirit here than the ot saints experienced. But Christ promises the NT believers that He would baptize them with the Holy Spirit. So that they would be filled with power to spread the gospel. I do not see any where in Acts where the Holy Spirit does not have the throne room of the heart as the evidence of a person being saved.    Reply Quote Notify

3057  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Feeling very lonely on: October 05, 2010, 09:50:54 AM LM... glad to see you posting here... you add so much to the conversation because you are so kind to the newbies.... and we who are struggling... hope you can write some more encouraging thoughts here ... and maybe it will encourage you along the way. Reply Quote Notify

3058  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Lesson learned on: October 02, 2010, 11:02:36 AM Honesty and exposure are not always the rite way to go. Remember that the bible is not a discouraging book. God is the great shepherd and not the prosecuting attorney... that was Finneys alone.. where the law is set apart from from cause and being. So we are warned about our tongue. Its the christians responsibility to be defined as a seeker of God and not a person who goes around exposing sin. The light of God will expose the darkness of sin. So it is really at a snails pace when we are dealing with each other on the horizontal level...because salvation is in God alone and He will work to sanctify us in His time. Tell me that your will is not depraved and i will show you a man that brings a lot of grief to other people. The Holy Spirits ways are not like mans ways. The Holy Spirit gives a man ability while He teaches the man holiness. So we say that sanctification comes from the means ... they are focused on the means and so that growth is not in the paradigm of cooperation but on the word becoming flesh. The Father sent the Son and revealed the Son by the Spirit so that all change comes in this supernatural teaching as the form of communicating to man so that the believer is most dependent on this one communication. We must trust God alone for change! From God alone comes our honor. If we trust in the means then our lives are determined to unfold by what we think! The ability to submit our thought life to God. But our thinking is determined by what we are most pleased with!Our affections will keep us from promising things that are not hypocritical and then creating a reality to other people that is not based on true success. This is why the gospel cannot be scientifically produced! The gospels power is in its simplicity. God will bring about the change.   Reply Quote Notify

3059  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciliation of 3 theologies. Stage 2. on: October 02, 2010, 09:25:12 AM I am going to try to put this in modern day lingo. These five points are interrelated just like the working parts of an engine. If one part is missing like the spark plugs, pistons, battery, oil etc then the engine is worthless. Because salvation is in one source within itself. Or themselves as Person. This is what determines the personal effects of the universe. Just like an engine cannot start without these parts so salvation can only run in reality as a running engine of the parts are in motion. The Trinity is the motion of the cause of salvation. Other wise salvation would be as cold as a that mass of dead metal. Salvation is the life of God in the soul of man that generates the warmth , the movement, and the action.  This is why each point is dependent upon the other point. Each point is dependent as we our as the measure of our dependence. The less we acknowledge in each point the less dependent on God we are. So we say that these five points are closest to being practiced when we are praying dependent prayers. This is why the bible says to pray without ceasing. Because there is a relationship of our acknowledging our absolute dependence and our understanding dependence in this way. This is why we say that man is totally depraved. Because those who come to God must believe that He is and He rewards those who diligently seek Him. Believing that God is ...is relying upon Him for everything. Trusting in God is acknowledging our lack of ability and His rite to rule as He is. This is why every part of man is corrupted. He is tainted with sin. We as Adams dependents are cursed with receiving the just consequences of sins. We have been reduced to servitude of the devil and we can no longer attain to the potential that we were created for. Spiritually we are in bondage to Satan and physically each one of us has some kind of mental defect in which we do not have a complete ability to rule our own flesh. All of society is connect in an imaginary way of what the purposes of our personal likes and dislikes create the unity that God has determined in His own pleasure. These life giving relationships are broken so that we bring pain to one another out of a blindness to act as God would purpose in each individual choices. We not only want what is evil continually but we are so far from the potential to effect our purpose that we cannot even fathom that we are no more than mere worms. As a reflection of the glory of God we are a dark spec ...Man is a beast in himself. Man is totally depraved.   Reply Quote Notify

Quote from: Gouda on September 26, 2010, 08:14:12 PM Not rambling at all, Tom.  It was lovely, and it reminded me of one of my favorite books:  A.W. Tozar's 'The Pursuit of God'.  There's this paradox he speaks of, about our having God, but yet desiring more of Him. Here's a link to his first chapter, Following Hard After God: http://www.theboc.com/freestuff/awtozer/books/the_pursuit_of_god/following_hard_after_god.html A brief excerpt: To have found God and still to pursue Him is the soul's paradox of love, scorned indeed by the too-easily-satisfied religionist, but justified in happy experience by the children of the burning heart. St. Bernard stated this holy paradox in a musical quatrain that will be instantly understood by every worshipping soul: We taste Thee, O Thou Living Bread, And long to feast upon Thee still: We drink of Thee, the Fountainhead And thirst our souls from Thee to fill. Come near to the holy men and women of the past and you will soon feel the heat of their desire after God. They mourned for Him, they prayed and wrestled and sought for Him day and night, in season and out, and when they had found Him the finding was all the sweeter for the long seeking. Moses used the fact that he knew God as an argument for knowing Him better. `Now, therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, show me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight'; and from there he rose to make the daring request, `I beseech thee, show me thy glory.' God was frankly pleased by this display of ardour, and the next day called Moses into the mount, and there in solemn procession made all His glory pass before him. Yes Gouda... if you look at this passage you will find that God assured Moses after he asked God the first time. But Moses was not going to accept this by just a word. Now this is interesting. Because we do have a word. We have the written word of God ... but here Moses wanted more! See ... now some of us think this is a lack of faith. Because we have lived with the little book of promises at our side. Now this is what we naturally believe is the normal way... we read the word and put it down ... we receive the spiritual taste of these things. But here... and i can show you else where ... Christ is encouraging us to go further. In other words its not just reading the word and responding in obedience. But its wanting more than the word. Its seeking Christ for Christ. This is like Christ was teaching about the person who hounded the judge until the person got what he wanted. God is saying you can go beyond the normal illumination to an experience of being lifted up as if you were spiritually levitated in the air. And people think that it has nothing to do with doing something good. But this is what causes the most change in the future events in a persons life. Because when we seek Christ for Christ then He blesses us for that time well spent. You see we are in a sense going beyond faith to view Christ... or we are entering an experience where we are feeling this mystery of all the powers of this world being subjected to the personal presence of the invisible God. Have you ever been so filled with this amazing power that you were bursting out from the bottom of your heart so that you could not get up from your chair because of the weight of this glory? Oh.. you had gone to the word... it had a taste that was sweet... but then you began to enter the experience where there are real persons who are envision both past and future who are standing with you before in this personal vision before God. You feel as if you have ascended the heights and there is almost no gravity of this earth pulling you? And there is the judge... the wicked on the left and the righteous on the rite hand. There is no sense of the present influences of wicked men in your present experience. All is well because everyone is in their proper place and the only power you see is God in this great tribunal. And then you begin to speak to the great Judge of the world! Here you have gone from the word to the person.    Reply Quote Notify 3062  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Why are we so hard on oursleves? on: September 28, 2010, 11:10:21 AM There is nothing in us that is deserving of Gods goodness and kindness. Our cooperation is our failure and sin. When Kk says what he is describing in this concept of cooperation which is Gods will and our will coming to the agreement that Gods will is what we will then my understanding is that Kk is holding onto something in himself that he is confident will help him come to God ... in the sense of looking at the willing resistance needing further conviction leading to self pain and then to willingness to let God control his will. But this cooperation is looking at ourselves with ability in response to Gods will. I am saying that is not biblical. We bring failure and misunderstanding. We are not allowed to plead our own confidence in changing. We are not allowed to look at ourselves and say that we are better because we experienced something painful or something that we are in relation to God blessing us. The principle of our self understanding is that Gods power is the source that is gifted to us for reasons that are outside of ourselves. So when we examine the sorrows and the arrows of this life there are reasons that we do not understand that we read as a response to something in us. But these things are communicated to us without a full understanding of why we are going through this trial. So we are only allowed to say that we are unworthy servants. Why do we think this way? So that we do not get off on tangents... imaginations of who God is by this trial. We must respond by giving God all of the glory. A repentant person is not waiting for God to fulfill a process in him in order for the person to see change... but a repentant person is happy because God has caused the person to see the futility of effort and a vision of the glory of Christ. The experience is one of mystery as one seeks after Christ and at the end of that seeking the bigness of God has released the person from self concern or self reflection. The miserable christian is focused on his own resistance or lack of obedience because he believes there is real value in seeing himself as dying to his will. When a person focuses on the wrong things his mind is on a man centered worship.    Reply Quote Notify 3063  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: Repentance as a Nation on: September 28, 2010, 05:37:55 AM This is an interesting article Middle-aged suicides on rise in U.S., study finds (Reuters) - Suicide rates for middle-aged people are edging up -- particularly for white men without college degrees -- and a combination of poor health and a poor economy may be driving it, U.S. researchers said on Monday. Middle-aged people usually have a relatively low risk for suicide as they seek to support their families, but baby boomers are bucking this trend, sociologists Julie Phillips of Rutgers University in New Jersey and Ellen Idler of Emory University in Atlanta found. "If these trends continue, they are cause for concern," Phillips and Idler wrote in the journal Public Health Reports. "Male baby boomers have yet to reach old age, the period of the male life course at highest risk for suicide; if they continue to set historically high suicide rates as they did in adolescence and now in middle age, their rates in old age could be very high indeed." The researchers used suicide data from the National Center for Health Statistics and analyzed it by age group, marital status, education and other factors. The period they studied preceded the most recent economic crisis. "Following a period of stability or decline, suicide rates have climbed since 1988 for males aged 40-49 years, and since 1999 for females aged 40-59 years and males aged 50-59 years," they wrote. In 1979 the suicide rate for men aged 40 to 49 was 21.8 per 100,000. It rose to as high as 24 per 100,000 in 1996 and to 25 by 2005. For men 50 to 59 it was 23.9 in 1979, fell to 20.4 per 100,000 in 1999 and rose again to nearly 23.8 in 2005. For women it was much lower -- 9.9 in 1979 for women aged 40 to 49, rising and falling during the years in between and ending at 7.8 per 100,000 in 2005. "One question we asked was does this have something to do with the people?" Phillips said in a telephone interview. "Baby boomers have been a group noted for high rates of suicide in the past. It makes me wonder if there is something about baby boomers that may contribute to this pattern." To figure out what might be causing the changes, Idler and Phillips looked at potential outside factors -- although they note that just because two things happen at the same time, it does not prove cause and effect. "Unemployment rates in the U.S. rose between 2000 and 2003 at the same time that middle-aged suicide rates increased rapidly," they wrote. "In addition, rates of bankruptcy increased between 1991 and 2007, in part because of changes in the law, but with personal financial consequences nevertheless." And baby boomers are the least healthy middle-aged generation, with large rates of obesity and the diseases that result, such as diabetes and heart disease. "The percentage of those aged 45 to 64 years with multiple chronic diseases increased from 13 percent in 1996 to 22 percent in 2005, with a concomitant rise in out-of-pocket spending for health-care services," Phillips and Idler wrote. "The burden of disease falls disproportionately on those who are less educated, the group also least likely to have adequate employer-based health insurance." As other studies have shown, the risk of suicide was substantially larger for unmarried than for married people, with unmarried middle-aged men 3.5 times as likely to commit suicide as married middle-aged men. (Editing by Cynthia Osterman) Reply Quote Notify 3064  Forums / Main Forum / Re: A faith inventory on: September 27, 2010, 09:20:27 PM Faith is the agency by which we apprehend the promises. It is the spiritual desires that are the motives by which we know the reality of the object of our choice. Because our desires are not neutral but they create the reality of our choices. We long to be made whole and we are. We long for Christ and we find Him... we long for more of God and we find God. Our desires identify in us the power of Christ in our union with Him as we are pleased to know Him. Every communication from our new desires is the reality of Christ life in us. He says my sheep hear my voice and they follow me. So we cannot separate our knowledge of Christ with the reality that He is most worthy of our continuous focus. This is the way that we are taught of God. When we learn of Christ we taste the grace that is part of our receiving the knowledge. This taste is insatiable so that we are drawn to feast on Christ. We focus on Christ and we learn of Christ. Our spiritual desires are the most powerful force we have that is part of our physical senses. In some ways our physical senses go through a transformation from our spiritual senses. So it is impossible that we would have a equal opposition in our desires. Because the reality of receiving new faith is the change in our entire outlook. We no longer are under the domination of sin... Satan... the flesh.. and the world. These powers have become a foreign invader. We cannot fail. Because we get what we desire. Our desires are more valuable than gold. They have been bought with a price. That is more valuable than anything on this earth. It was the precious blood of Christ. We have the ability now to apprehend all of the promises as yea and amen. I am speaking here of a simple focus. We actually become like we are by longing to be what He is. This is the way we are taught to believe.. trust in and rely upon Christ.    Reply Quote Notify 3065  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: A possible reconcilation of 3 competing theologies. Stage 1 on: September 27, 2010, 08:05:22 PM Yes american religious zeal is having two states of mind in the same relationship with reality... this is why it is impossible to be zealous about reality. This is an imaginary zeal. God says either you love me or hate me. He told the generation under Joshua... dont live in between two choices... serve God only. God was saying that there was only one purpose for Him doing anything in this world in His saving actions and in His forming of societies. He is saying that His actions accomplished what He promised. God does not wait for anything. He does what He pleases for His own glory. God must be God or we cannot deny what is wrong.God must be God or we are left in our sins. Gods actions in coming to this earth and dieing...being raised to life and ascending as King over the universe are actions that accomplished all of salvation or God cannot be trusted to be our substitute and oppose all that opposes us. This is not a middle of the road two line theory. God does everything and we do everything.  Or God works through us to will and to do. This is not a life of finding a balance but what we say either condemns us or justifies us. If we say things that God did not give us authority to say then we only condemn ourselves. We are most safe when we are giving God all the glory in praise and adoration. We are most obedient to His word when we are saying His word to Him. For Gods word is purified seven times. It determines a mans eternal destiny. God is not democratic. God does not honor a system that has other competing gods. This is why God does not disclose all of His protection to His own . He keeps us in His secret counsel. Men are fickle and self serving. But God speaks and there is no opposition. Because God is holy... not a moral dictator who goes down a list ... but a fire goes before Him and He consumes His enemies on all sides. God comes in dark clouds of mystery to avenge His elect. Because God is the ruler of all the earth. He rules from on High just as He accomplishes salvation in the single event on the cross. God is not balanced but God does exactly as He wills.   Reply Quote Notify 3066  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Purpose on: September 27, 2010, 07:43:32 PM I think therefore i am....which is what determines my view of the world and thus determines how i give God all the glory. And yet it is totally about God. I have no power to think without His decrees determining on which mindset i am feeling as i think. Whether i am overcome with sorrow or am in a joyous state. There fore we believe that a God centered universe brings in a stream of reality that flows one way. When we are aligned with Gods purposes then we are most happy with His real presence in and through us. This is what the apostle was praying for the saints to understand the height and the depth ... the width  of the love of God that passes human understanding. Words and concepts create reality that goes beyond the mind in the power of apprehension to receiving the flow of Gods glorious power in this restful state. But we find there is so much opposition. We feel the tension that our sorrows create in us. So we are most prone to a sense of helplessness to give God the glory with this struggle with anxiety. But this is necessary as Gods way of making us go through this process of rolling all of our troubles over to Him in prayer. But in rolling these things over we are still finding that we have a tension that is forcing us to be sorrowful. This is why we must go through this angry confrontation in our prayers. Because we must roll these things over to God in the natural way of unburdening ourselves in a relationship. But we see there is nothing that God has not determined in this process as focusing all of His attention on us beyond the level of our relationships in this world. Because God works through the means of our dis positional tendencies by His power to go beyond our outer man to force His way into our inner man. God is more focused on us than we could ever focus ourselves on us. We call this Gods searching hand bringing to us a new conversion to a deeper God consciousness. Reply Quote Notify 3067  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Chosen by God on: September 26, 2010, 05:21:33 PM Quote from: Gouda on September 23, 2010, 11:25:03 PM Oh, well, I shoulda' known the stones would fly at some point.  This is why I usually stay off the Theology forum. Still, don't some of you feel a little, teensy bit of humility or trepidation in declaring you speak the absolute truth and mind of the Almighty God?  Big red flag there, for me, when any man dares to claim such authority and superiority of understanding. Tom, are you so sure of your own little "scientific experiment" in discovering God's ONLY truths that you dare to lump me in with with the "devil's followers reasoning in my own truth"?  I know Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep me until that Day. And that's regardless of whether some here choose to place a label of Arminian, Open Theist, Reformed Theologist, or the devil's follower on me.  Sheep or goat is the only label that matters, and you are not the One that makes that choice. 'Sorry to break the news to you... I just saw this Gouda... no i apologize for not reading your post .. i was responding to STPs post. Gouda i believe that christians can believe the wrong things. And i also believe that christians can believe the wrong obvious things. And i do not believe these things like i should. Even tho i know them... i am reminded that i really do not follow them so i am in need of being reminded on a daily basis. It kills me to forget things cause i have memorized so many scriptures that i wish they would all say in my mind.. its a lot of work. I hate forgetting. I thought one time i would just go over them on a daily basis but then it would take me a week now. I just hate being so tied down to time. I hope in eternity that i will remember the illuminations and the reception of spiritual flavors that i have in my life. But i forget these as well.Now i get to meditating and the weight of all of the knowledge consumes my wanting to find new knowledge and i am left to feel helpless under the illumination that it is too much as compared to the energy i have left to enjoy the effects. I am starting to call this the mystery part of my life. God is sooooo big its searching and then at the end it is mystery. Its like a longing and then its a frustration mixed with joy ... no so much illumination just in awe of the weight of it all. As well as getting older and i sleep more.. hate that too. I just wish they had some kind of pill i could take to make me strong all the time again... i loved that part of my life in meditation.... sorry for rambling.   Reply Quote Notify 3068  Forums / Main Forum / Re: A faith inventory on: September 26, 2010, 04:16:28 PM Quote from: Great2bHIS on September 26, 2010, 03:46:14 PM AMEN!!!!! Tom! Thank you for saying what I couldn't seem to express by my own words! Thanxs G2b  ... your always very encouraging.... and just as clear as well... i enjoyed reading this thread... Reply Quote Notify 3069  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is good Fruit? on: September 26, 2010, 04:01:54 PM Quote from: squalltorpedo2 on September 26, 2010, 03:55:52 PM I "know" you are one of those faithful "inconspicuous" people MBG!!  I have met you, and the faith "God" gave you checks out in every way I could be sure of anyone!! :  )) I enjoyed the spiritual fellowship with you brother... thanks .. and its great to have you here... if there is anyone who is being encouraged by your accurate post it is i... i know others are as well... thanks bro... Your Gators are going strong too. Reply Quote Notify 3070  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is good Fruit? on: September 26, 2010, 03:52:50 PM Bearing fruit is living according to the nature of salvation. I have seen people who are the most giving people.. the nicest people ... much nicer than Calvinist... an i am not talking about specific experiences in the present. But i have seen people who do acts of kindness... who give their whole lives to help other people ... who have no relationship with Christ.. they are the most active members sometimes. But they do not display a desire to know Christ. There is no vine and branches concern in their lives. I get along with the nicest people. I mean.. they would show greater giving than most of the people in church... they have are more realistic understanding of failure because that is what is taught in the world now... they weep when people weep... they laugh when people laugh... but they do not have a growing relationship with Christ... There is nothing there. This is why it is so difficult to live in community when the church is prospering. Because in a low time of religion where these things are purely mechanical it is near impossible to distinguish the wheat from the tares because people get plugged in and that is something most people feel comfortable doing. This is why it is so easy for someone to be involved in church activities and live in a complete dream world about what Christ is really doing. I think most of the real work is being done by inconspicuous people who are struggling in some way and looking to Christ . We are going to be very surprised on the day of Christ. Reply Quote Notify 3071  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: A possible reconcilation of 3 competing theologies. Stage 1 on: September 26, 2010, 03:17:56 PM Gods foreknowledge is His understanding of the intimate knowledge He has of the future event that is worked out by Him for His glory. Because God must be God in that nothing comes into existence apart from His word. He speaks and it is accomplished. Not only has God left us His word in the bible as being the eternal word of God... that is ...each word is Trinitarian... or its the successful communication of the Trinity in going out as a word that is promised to its ends but it also is a spoken word. So when we read it ..is as if God is speaking it to us. So we say that God determines who we are... what is our circumstances and the present order of creation ... and working out of the events in the world... God works all things out for His glory. How does He work these out... He speaks it into existence! All second causes are directly decreed by God.  This is why we know our God to be faithful because He has decreed our salvation that comes to us apart from anything in us. We hear the word of salvation as purely from the disposition of a Father who we give all the glory by the word of His mouth! For we look for Him to speak salvation...ongoing salvation! Have you longed for God to save you today? Have you shouted to God to speak salvation to you? In you deepest struggles.. does the voice of fear... condemnation... guilt... pain... shame... sorrow ... speak louder than our Great God? Did you know that He can withhold temptation from you? Did you know that He can cause you to not sin?  Do you really experience the substitution life of Christ? Does His word of salvation... it could be in a personal struggle... it could be impossible situation that you cannot get over on your own.... it could be a health problem that has brought you under sorrow after sorrow.... God can make everything rite in the trial... Its His voice of salvation that goes beyond.. our present sorrows. Ask Him to speak salvation to you... seek it ... every day lay it before Him! Reply Quote Notify 3072  Forums / Main Forum / Re: A faith inventory on: September 26, 2010, 02:50:23 PM The problem is that the evidence of real faith is not an examination of the scriptures commands. The christian life is not two separate realities. But faith has two sides. This is why we say that real faith is from an implantation of the word of God. Faith somes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So real faith is first taught to us ... and it is by the Spirit that we catch the reality of saving faith. But if we say that faith is a natural gift to all man that makes a man able to respond to the commands then we are presenting faith as a work. We are teaching that the obedience to the command is the teaching process that increases faith. Or we are saying that faith is man examining himself and what comes out of that obedience is true faith. Or God does His work and man does his.  But faith comes from an act of the Spirit by the illumination of the scriptures to our minds. So we say that all of salvation is the doctrine that each of the doctrines describe as what is real grace! We call this teaching the man a faith by the doctrines of grace. Faith cannot be increased without teaching. Teaching is the way of God that makes a man follow Christ as sheep follow a Shepherd. We look to God as incapable of doing one good thing on our own. The only time we think correctly is when we are thinking under the authority of Christ. Every time we think on our own we develop false teachings. When we do not think correctly we act wrongly. This is the way of the Christian experience... we are moved along by word and Spirit. Because just as faith is a gift so our living in faith is gifted to us as we are looking outside of ourselves for all of the positive illuminations that grow our faith. This is why it is impossible to please God.. .or do something that is required in order for God to smile on us... look on us... without faith! Because the principle of faith is that we are taught by representation and not an inclusion. We do not add anything of ourselves to the teaching of faith. Any time the scripture commands us to do something the ability is provided by God. It was decreed by God from all eternity. We are taught about faith by the grace of God. Each action is pre graced with ability. So we say that faith comes to us by the teaching of the Holy Spirit and it comes in power by our being represented by Christ. I will stop here... man this is so important.    Reply Quote Notify 3073  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Why are we so hard on oursleves? on: September 26, 2010, 02:24:28 PM Quote from: Radio Roswell on September 26, 2010, 11:24:08 AM "Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith."  Romans 3:24-27  Amplified But what evidence of this do we see really?? I mean seriously the minute one testifies of such knowledge and or accomplishment then right away it's a two edged sword. See I don't read this that way like direct application but condition. He's not saying your going to reach this nirvana of NO pride and boasting..otherwise this whole forum and Christianity itself by humans would be in jeopardy of containing no testimony of faith at all. He's saying that Here's what to pin it on or find the real idea of that which causes good works and for what means to an end. But if we walk like were boasting in not having a condition of this very pride and act like we've arrived..then we probably will miss the idea that faith is the real focus and to not give credit to the rest of the process. Just like grace and peace and love. You can't make it convenient enough..it just isn't. I agree Rr.. the lowest of the christian experience is to have a true knowledge of ourselves as sinners. If we are believes then this is a given. Like you have been saying.. we are always under confident in the wrong way. Is it because we neglect to see that we are sinners? Or is it because we havent really seen ourselves in the light of His countenance? I think the weight of negativity is that we know we do not measure up and we are always trying to do something to balance the scale. So i really believe that it is more of a roller coaster ride on the inside than we present ourselves on the outside. Because it s not what we do on the outside that gives people authentic examples but its what we are. This is why i cant accept Kks view of salvation because it is easier for me to set myself up for failure in trying to achieve some kind of repentance to quit something that i know after i have beat myself up over my failure then the temptation is going to come again and much stronger. I would rather say that i am incapable of pulling myself up by my own efforts and giving Him my sin to accomplish in me what He wants to in His time. To often we are so concerned for the sin in others that we fail to really feel our own sins. Thats the problem with our living on with this self repentance philosophy. The experience of repentance is who we are. If we do not have a certain enjoyment in seeing the need to be humbled by the sins we enjoy then repentance will not be a way to encourage us to look beyond ourselves to Christ. I think we all are reacting to Kks views because we sense that he is not seeing that he is going to sin even while he repents and the sins he repents of are not going away. This is why we can marvel at Christ as we are failing. Because we know that as long as we are in this flesh we are tied to a resistance that holds us back. Can i encourage everyone who is failing that this frustration of being incapable of being completely whole is a good frustration? I find that in me dwells no good thing... For what i want to do i do not do... but the very thing i do not want to do this i do... or wretched man that i am who will deliver me from this body of death? That foreign mind! Thanks be to God. This is the response... this is the change of mind! Its having a thankful heart out of a sense of my own unworthiness... thats repentance! See... its living in this grace! Reply Quote Notify 3074  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: September 23, 2010, 12:07:33 PM Yes STP... man does exactly what he understands in dealing with his own sin and inability. His responsibility falls on him because he acts according to who he is intrinsically. Every thing outside of God in this universe is created and not eternally existent. There fore it is represented as having a succession of parts... so it is subject to intervals of time...it is dependent upon its creator because it is not immutable. It is not equal with God because it was made by God with a purpose that is not in the same relationship with Gods eternal nature. It was made by God for Gods purpose so that it has limits by God. Like we said it is a form... God is a spirit who does not have a body like man. God exist as the most worthy object..the highest object... the never changing object in each space as fully God in all of eternity. God is the most high over all the earth.  Therefore God determines things by the qualities that He decides are going to enable them to exist with other things and their potential in that existent relationship. So that God decrees whatsoever comes to pass since God cannot be less than God at any time or in any place. For who has counseled God? Pharaoh? Kks defense of Pharaoh? God decreed the sin of Pharaoh before Pharaoh was born. God imputed the sin of Adam to the account of Pharaoh so that Pharaoh hardened his heart because of his sinful condition. Why did God do it this way? For His own glory. So that He might get glory through Pharaohs disobedience! Because God has the rite to determine who will be made a worthy piece of pottery. If Pharaoh enjoyed a freedom of will as Kk is talking then God could not create Pharaoh with limits. Pharaohs will would be without limits... and therefore Pharaohs will would be immutable like Gods. But there is no created thing without limits... shape... mutability. All things are to Him.. through Him... in Him.. and by Him... He is the sovereign over the created order in this way.     Reply Quote Notify 3075  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Why are we so hard on oursleves? on: September 23, 2010, 11:29:12 AM Yes that is very insightful Mx... we can fight with weapons that do not work and hit the marks of imaginary objects in this spiritual battle. We must have one focus and yet attack the enemy from many different angles. The bible is holistic and not a one trick pony motif.  This is why we are involved in a conflict that does not match our own physical conflicts. Our bodies are dying daily but our spirits are being renewed. And yet God is working in our members to mature us until we receive a body that is immortal. So that we fight in these moments in which we feel as if time has slowed down in the illumination of the eternal weight of the successful attack.  We are involved in a conflict that is very big and foreign to our natural senses. This is why we fight with our own desires and we must bring them under the control of the Spirit. So that the Spirit will begin to flow through us in our humanness. The conflict is personal.. we are harmless... God is to be feared. We find victory in a power that does not originate from us. It comes to us and works through us in our own sight and beyond our seeing. The battle is in our prayers where we learn to argue for a new revived illumination of these future struggles. So that we will be renewed in the knowledge of how we are to pray and we are enabled to find a break through as Gods power envelopes us until we cannot endure the weight of that glory. Our desperation must be refined... discovered in the maturation of the illumination so that we will understand the desperate condition as if we were already dead and standing before the tribunal of God. We must know ourselves by the frustration we express to God as the agent to disassociate ourselves from the personal feelings of the flesh and we must have an infusion of Gods power so that we will pray the prayer of faith. We will see the victory.