3106	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation?	on: September 07, 2010, 07:17:31 PM
Kk... as you know this is a Calvinistic site... i dont think your going to find anyone here back down from our beliefs in predestination. But we have enjoyed your encouragement. This is a disagreement where we can find some common ground but we know that if you take these different positions in a direction were we disagree with the applications that could make us question the motive. Its good that we keep in on the main subjects ...which are the doctrines of grace because we want to focus on a God centered way of thinking. I promise you that if you want to read and discuss here , you will not stray in these things. I think you are blurring the lines and out of your distaste for reformed doctrine ... you would be dividing the truth of scripture .. rather than seeing that the scripture is unbroken...it is connected from the beginning to the end. This is why we do not present being saved as focused on an act of the will. Because salvation is in God alone. So there is a lot of things that the scripture talks about prior to a man believing that is part of this connected presentation of the unbroken truth in that connection. The focus is on the heart. Not on the presentation of the message. Because God could use a donkey to get His message across. God is holy and there is only one thing that is important to men...that God would save them and not judge them. Every time God comes in the message He is withholding a swift destruction of the man. God means business... the presence of God is much bigger than we could understand. This is why the messenger is of little significance. When God saves a man... it is more powerful than a nuclear bomb.. it is more important than the day of our independence... it is more sure than the sun rising. Because salvation is greater than we could imagine. Who could know the mind of God? Who could be His counselor?
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3107  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Predistination and Islam same as Calvinism on: September 07, 2010, 03:19:26 PM Kk... the doctrine of predestination leads to free grace because it is focused on salvation coming to man. All other religions find hope in man coming to God. One is all of grace and mans religion is works based. Christian faith is unique in that it is God doing all the work of salvation in the way of substitution so that man can be saved. While religion is man working in some way to earn his salvation. This free grace is what we as Calvinist believe and preach. Kk .. i am not saying that a person who believes in a partial goodness in man... ie the will... is not a christian. They are a deceived christian. Because they cannot really defend salvation as being sola faith, grace, and in Christ alone. Because as you believe it is through mans will alone as well.   Reply Quote Notify

3108  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: addiction versus life in christ. on: September 07, 2010, 02:48:10 PM The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:     On their own     There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.     Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.     (See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).) Hubie... i am not trying to discourage you from getting help ...just trying to get the facts out there. Alcoholism Stats     * Alcohol dependence and abuse cost the US approximately $220 billion in 2005. For the sake of comparison, this was greater than the amount of money spent to combat cancer ($196 billion) and obesity ($133 billion).     * 25.9% of underage alcohol abusers (i.e. underage alcoholics) drink 47.3% of the total amount of alcohol consumed by drinkers under the legal age.     * Drinking excessively year after year may cause pancreatitis, or an inflamed pancreas. Side effects of pancreatitis include extreme abdominal pain and abnormal weight loss. These can lead to death.     * Alcoholism improves a drinker’s odds of developing cancer of the throat, larynx, liver, colon, kidneys, rectum, and esophagus. It may also contribute to immune system irregularities, brain damage, harming an unborn baby, and cirrhosis of the liver.     * An estimated 43% of US adults have had someone related to them who is presently, or was, an alcoholic.     * 3 million US citizens older than 60 abuse alcohol or require it to function normally.     * Close to three times the amount of US males (9.8 million) abuse, or are dependent upon, alcohol than females (3.9 million).     * A survey of over 450 American alcohol abusers revealed that the vast majority of them did not grow up with a father figure in their households.     * 6.6 million minors in the US live with an alcoholic mother or father.     * About 14 million US residents battle an alcohol addiction.     * Greater than 50% of grownups in the US have had knowledge of someone in their immediate family with an alcohol problem.     * Just under 13.8 million US adults have issues with alcohol, and 8.1 million of them officially suffer from alcoholism.     * People who have a good relationship with their spouses have an 8.9% probability of developing alcoholism over the course of their lifetime. Contrarily, 29.2% of adults who are living with a partner and have never married are likely to become alcoholics.     * Around a quarter of all children experience some form of alcoholism in their families before they turn 18.     * As the “baby boom” generation settles into retirement, alcoholism is becoming more prevalent among the elderly.     * Generally, employees who have divorced, separated, or never married are twice as likely to have alcohol problems as those who are married.     * It takes about 15 years for an adult to become a full-fledged alcoholic, but the process is sped up in teens and young adults.     * One out of every five alcoholics who attempt to stop drinking without medical intervention end up dying as a result of alcohol withdrawal delirium.     * In comparison to those who drink in moderation, people who abuse alcohol for a significant period of time experience an efflux of income anywhere from 1.5% to 18.7%. This vast fluctuation is largely based on a person’s age and sex.     * People who live with an alcoholic take ten times the amount of sick leave than individuals who are not exposed to alcoholism. Four-fifths of them also claim their productivity on the job is reduced as a result of their living situation.     * 40% of alcoholism is passed down through the gene pool, while the other 60% stems from unknown circumstances.     * Studies show that the offspring of alcoholics have a greater chance of becoming alcoholics themselves than those whose parents are clean.     * A staggering half-a-million US children aged nine to 12 are addicted to alcohol. Check this out he divorce rate in America for first marriage, vs second or third marriage 50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce, according to Jennifer Baker of the Forest Institute of Professional Psychology in Springfield, Missouri. According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America: The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41% The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60% The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73% What is the current divorce rate in America? It is frequently reported that the divorce rate in America is 50%. This data is not accurately correct, however, it is reasonably close to actual. The Americans for Divorce Reform estimates that "Probably, 40 or possibly even 50 percent of marriages will end in divorce if current trends continue.", which is actually a projection. "50% of all marriages in the America end in divorce." The above statement about the divorce rate in America hides all the details about distribution, however. Age at marriage for those who divorce in America Age                        Women               Men Under 20 years old   27.6%   11.7% 20 to 24 years old   36.6%   38.8% 25 to 29 years old   16.4%   22.3% 30 to 34 years old   8.5%          11.6% 35 to 39 years old   5.1%     6.5% Reply Quote Notify

3109  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: September 07, 2010, 09:56:52 AM Yes.. the first sin created a society of destructive people. Everyone did what was rite in his own eyes. Creating the society in which you have these clans who rule their territory by fear and dominance. When men depart from the oracles of God they make up their own laws. When they replace God with their own form of ruling ... then the streets are filled with murder, rape, and theft. When the foundations of society are destroyed what can the righteous do?  This is why in the ot God had a covenant people. Because God rule Israel through righteousness. God gave Isreal the promises in the covenant that He would provide for their daily needs, protect their cities within their walls and bless them with an inheritance of land and family success. The nations were not given the oracles of God so they were ruled by clans. This is why covenant understanding is so important because a nation cannot exist without this constitutional form. This is why we hold our hand on the bible and swear before God to uphold the constitution. Because God will protect the helpless and the widow even if we stray from this covenant. God rules directly over nations. Men turn these things upside down but God thwarts the actions of men and works everything out to work good for His covenant people. When the constitution is being destroyed what can the righteous do?... God is in His temple...God is on His throne. Reply Quote Notify

3110  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 1. - THE BENEFITS OF CHRIST MADE… JOHN CALVIN on: September 07, 2010, 09:24:08 AM 3. I indeed deny not (so enveloped are we in ignorance), that to us very many things now are and will continue to be completely involved until we lay aside this weight of flesh, and approach nearer to the presence of God. In such cases the fittest course is to suspend our judgment, and resolve to maintain unity with the Church. But under this pretext, to honor ignorance tempered with humility with the name of faith, is most absurd. Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ (John 17:3), not in reverence for the Church. And we see what a labyrinth they have formed out of this implicit faith—every thing, sometimes even the most monstrous errors, being received by the ignorant as oracles without any discrimination, provided they are prescribed to them under the name of the Church. This inconsiderate facility, though the surest precipice to destruction, is, however, excused on the ground that it believes nothing definitely, but only with the appended condition, if such is the faith of the Church. Thus they pretend to find truth in error, light in darkness, true knowledge in ignorance. Not to dwell longer in refuting these views, we simply advise the reader to compare them with ours. The clearness of truth will itself furnish a sufficient refutation. For the question they raise is not, whether there may be an implicit faith with many remains of ignorance, but they maintain, that persons living and even indulging in a stupid ignorance duly believe, provided, in regard to things unknown, they assent to the authority and judgment of the Church: as if Scripture did not uniformly teach, that with faith understanding is conjoined. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3111  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Charles G. Finney's Systematic Theology on: September 07, 2010, 09:17:36 AM 5. Universality. The conditions and circumstances being the same, it requires, and must require, of all moral agents, the same things, in whatever world they may be found. 6. Impartiality. Moral law is no respecter of persons, knows no privileged classes. It demands one thing of all, without regard to anything, except the fact that they are moral agents. By this it is not intended that the same course of outward conduct is required of all; but the same state of heart in all that all shall have one ultimate intention that all shall consecrate themselves to one end that all shall entirely conform, in heart and life, to their nature and relations. 7. Practicability. That which the precept demands must be possible to the subject. That which demands a natural impossibility is not, and cannot be, moral law. The true definition of law excludes the supposition that it can, under any circumstances, demand an absolute impossibility. Such a demand could not be in accordance with the nature and relations of moral agents, and therefore practicability must always be an attribute of moral law. To talk of inability to obey moral law is to talk nonsense. So the highest nature of man is his compliance to the moral law. Of which God enforces through threats and punishment. Because there is no respecter of persons.. everyone is required to fall in line with what is natural to all mankind. Wow... legalism 101 Remove Reply Quote Notify

3112  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: Repentance as a Nation on: September 07, 2010, 07:14:02 AM Abortionists Kept Aborted Babies in Jars Share by Matthew Archbold Sunday, September 05, 2010 9:57 PM Comments (120) Two abortionists in Maryland (Dr. Steven Brigham and Dr. Nicola Riley) were ordered to stop practicing abortions in Maryland after a woman was severely injured. Subsequently, police raided the clinic searching for medical records and to their horror they discovered dozens of unborn babies stored in a freezer. After being shocked and disgusted my mind raced back to an incident a few months ago. This would be a strange and horrible story if it had never happened before but just a few months ago another abortionist, this one in Philadelphia, was discovered to be keeping aborted babies in jars. The offices of Philadelphia abortionist Kermit Gosnell were raided earlier this year after a woman was injured and they found the conditions of the clinic to be “deplorable and unsanitary.” Authorities reported: “There was blood on the floor, and parts of aborted fetuses were displayed in jars.” I used to think that the abortion industry were simply capitalists who allowed their greed to override their humanity. I used to think that maybe it was just feminism run amok and that cooler heads would eventually prevail. I used to think that pro-lifers were simply up against the extreme of secularized logic. Over the past few years though I’ve come to believe that it’s more than that. It’s worse than that. We’re immersed in a culture with a death fetish. Our fascination with death is boundless. Our culture increasingly sees humanity as the problem. We elevate animals in order to grant them human rights and increasingly view humans as animals. I have increasingly come to agree with C.S. Lewis who said we are in “enemy occupied territory.” Hate has become so commonplace that it has lost its power to surprise me. Kindness now moves me more than hate. I have come to see love as the exception; kindness as counter cultural. Maybe it was always this way and I am simply more aware of it now. But maybe on the other hand we’ve stepped off a cliff here. Maybe things actually are getting worse. Maybe all the standards and rules we as a society saw as bars of a cage were actually protecting us. From each other. No matter what, I think it’s time love made a comeback. Reply Quote Notify

3113  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: September 06, 2010, 05:06:47 PM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLw2oS2iEJ0&feature=related STP i think this is what Kk is talking about when he describes his struggle... i got to use a little humor. Reply Quote Notify

3114  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: September 06, 2010, 10:33:16 AM Let me say one more thing here... our natural struggle from birth comes as a result of our objection to having a rule that defines how we are going to think. Its not only that we have a distaste for the thoughts of God and the ways of God... but its that we are dead to these things so we do not spend time thinking about the ways of God. That means at the first origins of missing the mark we have a natural disinterest in thinking Gods thoughts. This is our placing our own thinking above His thinking and we are defined as idol worshipers in the heart of the matter. When we define our lives in this independent way then we make our own decisions about what is important to us and how we defined what is important in our relationships. Its really not even a lack of understanding  in how to communicate to one another that defines who we are in this world. But is placing some idea about ourselves and our view of our relationships as equal or more important than what God thinks. Its having two masters. Thats what makes moral equations seem so christian to us. Because we are taught a religious submissiveness in bypassing our confession of our inability and then being taught this conviction that is not an outward ability in making us look and feel good,.... but its focusing on Christ above all other things and people. We must start with His word that defines how we are to think and live... and confess it to be so as believing it as more important than mans philosophies of relationships. For we do not fight against flesh and blood but against things that set themselves up as idols in our thoughts and then we create our own moral equations. This light of the knowledge of God is what brought the apostle to conclude that coveting was a sin he could not control. It literally brought the apostle to confess his sinful condition before a holy God.     Reply Quote Notify

3115  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: September 06, 2010, 10:06:17 AM Kk.. you and i agree that salvation is a confession. But we disagree in that we believe it is only a confession and not a confession and a struggle. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. It is the power that does all the work in us to be saved. Believing in the heart is only a work of God that brings about a confession that we are saved. What you are saying is that salvation is our will and His will in this great struggle and along with that we must confess. You call this asking Him into our hearts. I am not trying to be offensive ... just showing how confused the message can be when we make salvation our will being subdued by His will ... and confessing that He subdued it. We believe that in order for one to be saved He must confess the Lord Jesus. The reason is that it is not something that produces believing but it is something that comes as a result of one having an inward change. We believe that just because you confess ...doesnt mean that you are a christian ... because this confession can be confused as a works and grace mixture. I have stated that in order for one to confess properly... and i do not say it is absolutely essential to salvation ..but at some point it is taught to us because of the Spirit teaching our hearts...but we must come to confess that we were unable to come to Christ ... it was not by our own believing . There was nothing that we did... said... or showed that qualified us for salvation. We must go deeper than the outward and conclude that God by His word calls men to life. The word and the Spirit gave us this new identity that had no beginning in time. It was out of the will and word of God from all eternity.  Reply Quote Notify

3116  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: September 06, 2010, 09:14:20 AM Kk  your trying to teach the bible as saying that God does not violate mans will. So you have left us to question exactly how God subdues a mans will without violating it. At least i get the impression that salvation is defined by you as God working to gain control over a man but not totally saving the will in this life. So i am confused about exactly what God does to a man to change that man and what is the difference between God wrestling a man to the ground and subduing his will ... what you term salvation...but then man still struggling with God as if God was starting all over again to gain more control of a man. My problem with what you are teaching is that there is no definite change in the will ... i mean.. you say there is... but your definition is that salvation is only experienced when God gets the man to a certain point... of which the question is how much of the struggle represents God actually saving a man... and how does a man know he is saved if God is still struggling to further subdue his will? This is different from my position...because i believe that salvation makes a man free from sin, the law as a means to further subdue his will and it is reasoning that a man is able because in Christ we are made completely new even tho we dont always will it to be so, because Christ willing accomplished the willing for us. So in reasoning that we have His will ...then He subdues our wills in our identity with Him. That is grace subdues our wills because we reason that there was a real change and we could not obtain the strength in ourselves to make ourselves further willing. We actually trust that Christ gave us a will that was in free grace and we show our allegiance by our confessing that it was so. This is why we believe in an actual change of the will in the past. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3117  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: September 04, 2010, 02:02:32 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on September 04, 2010, 01:11:42 PM K_k previously:  "Have you ever asked Jesus Christ to come into your heart/life?  Is He alive in, and through, you now?  If so, did that happen before or after you asked Him?" mbG: "I ask Jesus to come in all the time.. because He stands at the door of my heart and knocks." K_k:  There is no need for Him to knock if He lives in you.  He may want access to more "rooms in the house", so to speak, but He only knocks on the outer heart-doors of those He is not yet living in.  You can stop asking Jesus to come in once He lives in you, never to leave or forsake you, and just thank Him.  On the other hand, you might want to frequently ask Him to fill you with His Spirit, since we don't stay filled up long and have to renew our desire. But a question remains.  Were you regenerated before you asked Jesus to come into you the first time, or isn't it rather that God prepared you, yet didn't enter until He was invited?   mbG: "did Jesus obtain everything we need in order to be righteous in His sight... including our wills being made new? Because there is a big difference between a will that is unable and being made able by Christ alone... and a will that is partially self will and Gods will that God must dominate. Is the work finished or do we share in obtaining eternal life?" K_k: Christ's work on the Cross is finished, our work on our crosses is not.  That's why we are to pick up our crosses daily.  Self-will cannot accomplish this, because self-will opposes God.  We are given a new, imperfect will directed toward God, as we were before we asked Him to enter our lives as Savior.  He will finish the process at the time of Resurrection, but in the meantime, we are being transformed into His image partially by our choices, yet we are not working for the salvation He has already provided, just expressing it. mbG:  "Because if we are equal in the power to resist ... then we must repent as if we were under the influence of our former will. But just like our identity is made new ... so our wills have been forever transformed so that our image can match our desires." K_k:  We are given the ability to resist His influences as long as we live.  However, our asking Him to save us includes His saving/purifying our wills, our innermost desires.  We will often choose against His will for us as long as we remain in these bodies.  Our identity is made new, our expression of that identity will not be perfect until "we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is".  When the influences of the flesh, the world and the devil are removed, we will see our true identity in Christ. mbG:  "Do you hear Christ voice speaking in this transforming way or do you think a seminar will transform you?" K_k:  If we listen closely to Him, we can hear Him speaking in His transforming way in a seminar or a cemetery, in a righteous-appearing person or in a drunken bum.  And sometimes His most transforming work is in His silence. Kk.. the way you reason is universally focused and not on the assurance of faith. I would like to help strengthen your faith by focusing on how you are able to resist the tendencies to be imaginative about your influence over an unbeliever ...in finding through another person a hope that does not exist. But if your focus is on God alone to save then your assurance cannot grow weak... and your hope will not be dependent upon your thinking that God is going to save people around you in order for you  to gain strength in your looking at imaginative universal messages that God is not going to answer. But we know that if we have received eternal life then we have a new name written down in heaven. I dont want you to be surprised when you imagine that friendship with the world is ok as long as that knowledge is dependent upon Gods faithfulness to save who you think God needs. But God actually opposes those people that you disagree with Him about even tho your nice enough to want more people included. But we know that mans converts are the religious pharisees that God opposes the most. This is because we fail to see that these verses that say God saves the whole world are not literally the whole world . Because we see in scripture and throughout our lives there are a lot of people who die who do not want Gods salvation. This is why the Apostle is using the word world ...in distinguishing the old method of missionary success in comparison to the new method. When he is speaking about atonement .. it is salvation being extended beyond Jerusalem into the ends of the earth. The salvation cannot possibly atone for the whole world because every man is not saved. He is saying that atonement was extended to the ends of the earth to those who are atoned for in real terms.     Reply Quote Notify

3118  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Charles G. Finney's Systematic Theology on: September 04, 2010, 07:40:32 AM The essential attributes of moral law are, 1. Subjectivity. It is, and must be, an idea of reason developed in the mind of the subject. It is an idea, or conception, of that state of will, or course of action, which is obligatory upon a moral agent. No one can be a moral agent, or the subject of moral law, unless he has this idea developed; for this idea is identical with the law. It is the law developed or revealed within himself; and thus he becomes "a law to himself," his own reason affirming his obligation to conform to this idea, or law. 2. Objectivity. Moral law may be regarded as a rule of duty, prescribed by the supreme Lawgiver, and external to self. When thus contemplated, it is objective. 3. Liberty, as opposed to necessity. The precept must lie developed in the reason, as a rule of duty a law of moral obligation a rule of choice, or of ultimate intention, declaring that which a moral agent ought to choose, will, intend. But it does not, must not, cannot possess the attribute of necessity in its relations to the actions of free will. It must not, cannot, possess an element or attribute of force, in any such sense as to render conformity of will to its precept unavoidable. This would confound it with physical law. 4. Fitness. It must be the law of nature, that is, its precepts must prescribe and require just those actions of the will which are suitable to the nature and relations of moral beings, and nothing more nor less; that is, the intrinsic value of the well-being of God and of the universe being given as the ground, and the nature and relations of moral beings as the condition of the obligation, the reason hereupon necessarily affirms the intrinsic propriety and fitness of choosing this good, and of consecrating the whole being to its promotion. This is what is intended by the law of nature. It is the law or rule of action imposed on us by God, in and by the nature which He has given us. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3119  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 1. - THE BENEFITS OF CHRIST MADE… JOHN CALVIN on: September 04, 2010, 07:29:57 AM 2. This evil, therefore, must, like innumerable others, be attributed to the Schoolmen,279279   French, “Theologiens Sorboniques;”—Theologians of Sorbonne. who have in a manner drawn a veil over Christ, to whom, if our eye is not directly turned, we must always wander through many labyrinths. But besides impairing, and almost annihilating, faith by their obscure definition, they have invented the fiction of implicit faith, with which name decking the grossest ignorance, they delude the wretched populace to their great destruction.280280   In opposition to this ignorance, see Chrysostom in Joann. Homil. 16. Nay, to state the fact more truly and plainly, this fiction not only buries true faith, but entirely destroys it. Is it faith to understand nothing, and merely submit your convictions implicitly to the Church? Faith consists not in ignorance, but in knowledge—knowledge not of God merely, but of the divine will. We do not obtain salvation either because we are prepared to embrace every dictate of the Church as true, or leave to the Church the province of inquiring and determining; but when we recognize God as a propitious Father through the reconciliation made by Christ, and Christ as given to us for 471righteousness, sanctification, and life. By this knowledge, I say, not by the submission of our understanding, we obtain an entrance into the kingdom of heaven. For when the Apostle says, “With the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation,” (Rom. 10:10); he intimates, that it is not enough to believe implicitly without understanding, or even inquiring. The thing requisite is an explicit recognition of the divine goodness, in which our righteousness consists. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3120	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Predistination and Islam same as Calvinism	on: September 02, 2010, 08:57:51 AM
Yes i agree STP... the question here is what is a real choice? What does a person want? Who or what is determining how a person chooses according to his or her desires. The Armininians say that freedom is having no prior inclination to choose either way. Our question is ... how can you have free choice if there is no choice in your equation of freedom? If we define reality as a freedom of choice to choose without going one way or the other then we in essence are saying it is like a hidden explosion that cause the world to come into existence. In other words we are saying that reality is caused by an un caused reason. When we stand in judgment before God free choice is going to be expressed by people either standing on the left or the right hand of God. Those standing on the left ... never displayed a real and consistent desire to know God and those on the right are there because they wanted to know God. They chose God because they lived in the reality of being pleased to know God while they were on this earth. No one will be standing in the group that had a will with no prior inclination to know God... there is no such thing. You half to actually choose something before it is a free choice. Thats the proof of the reality of both sides. The only other option is to make things seem real that are not. As to unbelief. The bible says that God created man with a mutable will. God created man in a passive decree that man would fail in obtaining ongoing righteousness in himself. Man had a free will prior to the fall. Adam chose to reject Gods offer. All men are represented by Adam. That means that you could put any other man in the place of Adam and that other man would have failed. The point here is...where is the focus? On God or on man? If God is sovereign then doesnt He have the absolute rite to do as He pleases no matter what? (as God)Doesnt the apostle ask the question Who can resist His will? Which demands and answer.. NO ONE! In the garden it showed an antimony.  Gods sovereignty and mans free will. The righteous desire and successful weight of the foolish choice is equally an antimony in itself.  If man would have eaten of the tree of life ... while rejecting the Devils offer.. then man could have said.. He chose God and obtained righteousness in himself. (A created being) That is the only time that kind of responsibility could have been a reality. But it was over a long time ago. The unbelief is the same now as it was then.  Man deserved instant judgment. But because...now listen... it is better that we do not raise our fist and say i deserve better... because God is love. Let that answer your objections. God is patient ... kind... faithful... and stead fast. God placed His love on some men for reasons we do not know. All men rejected Gods offer!... Thank God that He is able.   3126  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: August 31, 2010, 02:30:05 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on August 31, 2010, 02:36:59 AM You didn't quite get it right, mbG.  But the real question, the ultimate question, which i was asking squall, i would also ask you.  Have you ever asked Jesus Christ to come into your heart/life?  Is He alive in, and through, you now?  If so, did that happen before or after you asked Him? I ask Jesus to come in all the time.. because He stands at the door of my heart and knocks. But that is not really the question. The question is... did Jesus obtain everything we need in order to be righteous in His sight... including our wills being made new? Because there is a big difference between a will that is unable and being made able by Christ alone... and a will that is partially self will and Gods will that God must dominate. Is the work finished or do we share in obtaining eternal life? Is Christ ruler of the whole world as a God who determines all things by His decreeing whatsoever comes to pass ... or do we share in the responsibility to meet Him at the end of the tunnel? Because if we are equal in the power to resist ... then we must repent as if we were under the influence of our former will. But just like our identity is made new ... so our wills have been forever transformed so that our image can match our desires. This makes all the difference in how we live out this life.It is how we view this world, the devil, the power of sin, the glory of Christ and our own position as we live in these different societies. Do you hear Christ voice speaking in this transforming way or do you think a seminar will transform you?  Reply Quote Notify 3127  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Predistination and Islam same as Calvinism on: August 30, 2010, 11:45:20 AM Quote from: Willis on August 30, 2010, 11:31:40 AM I will never understand the Calvinistic view of sovereignty. If God really is sovereign (and who denies that?), then couldn't he allow free will in man? And if he is omniscient, then couldn't he know all the possible choices a man could make? That seems much more perplexing and difficult to understand from a human temporal perspective.   "then couldn't he allow free will in man?" See now here is a perplexing question that i have... how can one say that giving an allowance is any different than a necessary choice? Both your argument and mine have some kind of necessity prior to choice. But i am saying that necessity does not go against the idea of perfect liberty. While you are saying that a man must not have an power ...even allowance? in order for a man to be a complete liberty to choose. There is some lack of freedom as you define freedom. Reply Quote Notify 3128  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Predistination and Islam same as Calvinism on: August 30, 2010, 11:12:45 AM Let me say this... God is more active in dulling our pain than in bringing it out. If you look at the characteristics of a christian it is all passive acceptance. I mean... in love.... exhort. What is the teaching? It is one who encourages through the idea that we all could be under the trial. Exhort is not supportive in the idea that one who goes through a trial is automatically able to help that same person in the same trial. But exhort has the idea of having the same mind. It is the vehicle through teaching that one who went through the trial is able to help the other one going through the same trial. In other words its being spiritually able to take the pain of the other person as well as being sympathetic. The christian relationship in this one mind is like a spiritual physician. Its purpose is to heal. That is taking oneself out of the center of the process and giving God the keys to the vehicle through special wisdom for that particular  application in the understanding of the balance between carrying and sympathizing. Christ is the chief shepherd. Christ subdued all the powers of the evil one and gained victory and everlasting life for all of His sheep. He is both a warrior and a shepherd as the Chief Shepherd. This is why He prepares a table for us in the midst of our enemies. He displays us to the world as His special children of whom He alone protects from the wiles of the enemies. We are just His instruments to one another. This is why our attitudes are all passive in nature. Because we know how He fights our battles.      Reply Quote Notify 3129  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Predistination and Islam same as Calvinism on: August 30, 2010, 10:50:43 AM This is not Calvinism but Arminianism. We believe that Christ substituted for our sins and we are no longer under the condemnation for them. So we do not see sins as needing to be self atoned for. They believe in a works theology ... they gain eternal rewards for greater acts, and they atone for sins when they go through hardships. Actually arminianism supports a this schizophrenic God. Because on the one hand God did not pre determine the actions of peoples as their description of sovereignty. And on the other hand their struggle with the trials as a matter of atoning for sins offers them excuses outside of the normal reasons why people suffer. They suffer in a more special way than the rest of mankind. We believe that all suffering is a result of sin. That Christ took our place and suffered not only the effects of sin but for the consequences as well. When we suffer as sinners this identifies us with Christ suffering. On the one hand we experience no condemnation... He does not remember our sins ... and on the other hand we see the extent of our sins as we look at the perfect righteous One who suffered for our sin. So our suffering is not from a God who punishes out of anger for sin, but its from a loving Father who comforts us in our trials. Our relationship to God through the pain and sorrows of this world has a drawing effect to be weened from this worlds reactions to pain as we find it to be more painful to look at sorrow like the world looks at it. It is given to us so that we are brought to the deep well of grace and comfort. We do not understand Gods goodness as it is distinct from the pleasures of this world unless we lay our sorrows down at His feet. There is only one place that we can go on this earth and cast our burdens away from us. There is only one relationship in which we can know that He knows us better than we know ourselves and this includes our pain. In finding God to be a refuge we find the release of our pain into His care. He gives us remedies both physical and spiritual so that we can feel comfortable even tho we struggle with sin and temptation. He cares about us so much that He takes our pain even tho we may find comfort to sin more. This is our sovereign God.    Reply Quote Notify 3130  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: August 30, 2010, 10:21:42 AM I've never used a Scofield Bible.  I just described what the two primary covenants were.  In the Old Testament, the Covenant was based upon Law and perfect obedience.  In the New Testament the Covenant is based upon Christ's perfect obedience to the Law being imparted to us, when we receive Him as Savior, and He begins to write the Law on our hearts, minds and souls. I am very familiar with this theological perspective. The ot dispensation of Law and the Nt dispensation of grace. This is an effort to down play the covenants that God made with Israel because it is from the perspective that God is a trial and error God. The concept of dispensationalism is a teaching about 7 economies. These economies where Gods experiments with mankind. One of the economies was the law economy. This was Gods experiment in which God would rule the Nation of Israel through the Law given at mount Sinai. In holding this Law economy together God would rule Israel through threats to the breakers of the law and rewards to the keeper of the law. God was both a loving God and an angry God. But God was powerless to keep this economy from sinking into sin... that is why God turned to the Gentiles because the Jews did not pass this test in the economy of the Law dispensation. In this scheme God is represented as the school master in heaven. God would punish Israel and send them into exile for breaking the law. Every time God punished Israel ...then He would restore them from the exile and defeat ... but Israel would return to their former sins ... even practicing sins that were an abomination to God and greater than the last time they were defeated. So God needed to be more severe until He was fed up and decided to turn to the Gentiles. So God decided that the way of threatening s and punishments were not working so when God turned to the Gentiles ...He began working through grace.  This is because Jesus... who was a good example in living His life on the earth ... came and took care of sin for all mankind when He died on the cross. So this made God a universally loving old geezer. But now the Gentiles are failing at this grace economy cause they are taking advantage of all of Gods goodness and God needs to bring the tribulation to end all this partyn goin on down here. Yes i remember this old schizophrenic theology.... in my former days when i would agree with Kk.   Reply Quote Notify 3131  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 26, 2010, 11:08:49 AM The christian is a man who has one purpose in all of life. He is not a divided entity in how he is going to change and his actual position in his present achievements. But a christian knows himself in light of this single spiritual relationship to Christ. This is why we believe in the sovereignty of God. Because nothing else defines who we are other than the surety of our believing in things that are impossible in light of our ongoing understanding of who we are as God is able. This is why we must have a complete understanding of the gospel. Or as the apostles stated in acts... the full gospel! Every false image in this world is what a man loses in light of the comforts he enjoys about himself. There are many things and people that are important in this life... but there is only one thing that is needful. Why is it like this? Because many things and people offer an image of what it should be but the one thing is being true to ones self. This is why religion is so dangerous because it is the offer to be someone else as things and people define you. We must be able to see the gospel as impossible with men ...but possible with God or we will always be searching for the image power in things and people that is outside of the one thing. This is why the gospel is radical because it is simple. The gospel eliminates the vision of the masses and meets us alone making us who we are as sinners in need of a Savior. This is why we place all of our confidence in God because salvation is in God alone. Gods love is bigger than our own needs of what love would do if we could find comfort. We will never be satisfied in that love in this life because we are caught in between these two learning curves. One is that we can put all of our confidence in God to change us along the way even tho it may seem that we have devised a way that is faster. The second thing is that we must see that God is below the lowest possible grief that we could find in this life and He is the highest experience of pleasure, joy and happiness available to us in our on going renewal. Our honor depends on God alone! Reply Quote Notify 3132  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 24, 2010, 12:08:04 PM Yes, Thor.  Mbg, you need to look more closely at 1 Corinthians 5 especially around verse 19, one more time.  See the phrase "God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them." It doesn't say "the elect's sins" although that is what some folks want to change the wording to mean.  It says men's sins (inclusive of women's sins, of course).  All mankind.  All sins. We are not saying it means the elect sins in a bold way. What we are reasoning is that if God did not count all mens sins against them then all men would be righteous. This is impossible since the bible condemns men in their sins as the reason that they are rejected by God. You would eliminate the reason that God will punish men in their sins.  Logic tells us that men who are in their sins do not care if God does not count their sins against them. The natural reaction to telling men they need Jesus to take away their sins ... is they ask Why? Then when you tell them they say... I am good enough to handle this myself. They could care less about their need for a Savior. The only people who understand that God does not count their sins is those who know that if God did they would be toast. Because that is the natural new desire in Gods elect. I mean... even if the context was not clear ... its obvious just by understanding the way the world is that its talking about people who know Christ. Reply Quote Notify 3133  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How long can you go without sinning? on: August 24, 2010, 11:44:16 AM Even Paul said he hadn't arrived at sinless perfection yet, but was striving toward the mark of our high calling.  I doubt many of us are on a par with Paul.  But if Christ is alive in and through us, we will sin less as we move toward the day when we are sinless, in His righteousness, at the Resurrection.  Which is the great hope every Believer can count on. Our reasoning about these things is very important. Its a universal principle that if we focus on a task at hand then we are going to get better in our accomplishments. In other words the personal enjoyment of the focus is measured by our success. I do not think the bible encourages us to reason like this. Or we could have an image of the perfect relationship. We measure our success by the unity of two individuals who are performing the task at hand. The more we agree and the more we accomplish the task the more successful and confident we experience. This may seem like it is common sense but the bible does not reason like this. Or we may say i have been doing this christain focus for a long time. Its obvious that i have reached a point where i am a person who other people look up to an follow. As we look back at our lives we see a steady growth in getting better and we conclude that God has done this. That is really not the way the scripture encourages us to reason. We must begin by seeing that we are always doing things that are impossible for us to do if all things were balanced. First because we start out with a view of ourselves that is not entirely correct. The way to think in the christian life is to be told what you are like in order to have a correct view of where you are going. Because the way we think will determine how we live. If i said to you... it doesnt matter what you learn..it only matters what you do with what you learn. Then i am really saying there is a universal principle of conduct that we must all agree on as a natural rule in all conduct. I mean its like the rule of doing something that you do every day and you do not even think about. Like taking the food and putting it in your mouth. You do not think about this you just do it as an instinct. But life is not mechanical like this. Taking a closer look at this instinct and what makes your personally responsible is that there is a necessary reason for you to eat this way. So that you cannot measure things by the effort. This is why biblical understanding is really the first principles of all of the reasons we do things. There are two directly opposed ways of thinking in this world and they start with a disagreement about the causes .. the reasons why we do the things we do. Common sense... reasonable understanding....seeing things in reality start with these biblical paradigms in that contrast to our natural understanding. Reply Quote Notify 3134  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 24, 2010, 11:11:59 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on August 19, 2010, 02:11:09 PM mbG:  "Kk... i agree that we choose to be saved. I do not think we are robots in this way. When we are regenerated we are given the gift of saving faith." K_k:  Good, we are partially in agreement.  We do choose to be saved without coercion, which is what i have been saying all along.  We choose His Life in us which is manifested by regeneration as well as the faith which saves, His faith in us. mbG:  "So then....in "your" context of perception of this, "all" non believers stand in a state of "no condemnation" just like the Christian??" K_k:  I agree with what the Bible says.  God was in Christ reconciling mankind to Himself, not counting men's sins against them.  And He appoints us messengers, ambassadors, to carry this message and invite, actually plead with, the lost to be reconciled to Him. mbG:  "It is God's right as judge, to freely (of His own will) pardon or not to pardon.  This is what we see in Scripture KK." K_k:  Absolutely.  He alone is Judge.  And He tells us the basis for the Judgment.  The wages of sin is death.  Apart from Christ all men are sinners and cannot be given immortal bodies unless they receive the Source of Life, Christ Himself, which is freely offered to all.  At this time the doors of Heaven are open wide, so to speak, to all people, whosoever will choose to do so, can come to Him that they may receive complete forgiveness and unending Life with God. mbG:  "We don't just see the sole attribute of love at work in "all" mankind as you say." K_k:  The very continued existence of the lost, the blessings He bestows on the lost and the saved alike in this life, the mercy and grace He offers the lost now, the fairness and justice with which He will treat the lost, are all aspects of His love. You would say we see wrath, not love, toward the lost, right?  I would say the "wrath" of God in Scripture is always an outworking of His love, not of hatred.  He hates the sin and loves the sinner as it has been said.  It is the choosing of evil that will experience the most intense, destroying form of His love.  Recall that by nature "Our God is a consuming fire", as both the OT and NT testify. Think about that.  Pure, holy, righteous, love consumes all that stands in opposition to it.  For the sake of the loved ones, even the lost.  To let the deliberately self-chosen "lost" live on after the Judgment is to perpetuate sin and the horrible misery of sinners.  But in love He will end their mortal lives, with the wrath against sin which consumes evil, and those who cling to it, in the final Decision. Will God destroy persistent sinners with what appears to us to be similar to our "wrath" as humans?  Yes, it would look like that superficially.  Will it be an act of compassion and mercy as well as judgment?  Yes, because that is what God is.  All His actions are compassionate and merciful, without exception.  He is completely, perfectly consistent.  To keep the wicked alive indefinitely to suffer endlessly would be the kind of perversion of His nature that man's theologies have mistakenly portrayed by teaching that mortal beings are inherently immortal, which is false.  And then theology has taught that the lost didn't really even have a chance or a choice in the matter, they were "programmed" by God to reject Him so He could torture them endlessly.  Do you really believe this?  (It is a "snowball" of wrong theology which gathers an avalanche of error.) squall:  "One snow ball of wrong theology ...leads to the twisting of verses "just as we see here"...Who are the one's "no longer" having their sins counted vs. them in this verse KK???  Unbelievers and believers alike??? Or Just Christians like the rest of the N.T. states??" K_k:  The Scripture says God is not counting men's sins against them because of Christ's work.  And we are to call upon everyone to be reconciled to God because He has made available reconciliation for all people.  However, people are free to choose reconciliation or to continue to be enemies of His forgiveness, grace and mercy to them.  And at Judgment, since they refuse His forgiveness they will be given what they prefer, justice.  And the treatment they will get will be perfectly fair and just.  They (the lost) will only experience the exact consequences of their thoughts, words and deeds.  The wages of sin is death, in this case the Second Death.  They have chosen to reject unending union with God in Christ, and have selected the opposite, which is an end to life in flames that would look to us like human wrath, but are actually the consuming fire of purest love and righteousness putting them out of the intense misery they would feel in His continual presence. squall:  "Our desire comes as a "Free choice" b/c of the "result" of God  saving us from the sin which so entangled and kept us in 'darkness"...not as a pre-requisite of Him doing so....which is the cart "before" the horse...in error of how the Bible states it works." K_k:  We must freely choose to receive Christ or we don't receive Him.  He stands at the door and knocks.  He prepares us in many ways, unless we completely resist Him, to make the decision, but the decision is ours.  He could well override our wishes and take the final choice away.  But this is a choice of whether we want Him living inside us, for time beyond time.  A choice to have Him mold and shape our will and behavior in preparation for Kingdom living.  A choice to want His loving-kindness in place of our previously cherished self-centeredness.  A choice to be remade in His image.  He will not force these upon us, but humbles Himself to "earn" our trust, respect and preference of Himself over our selves. If you could see how much He is glorified by He extending to us the final ability to decide how much we want Him, you would simultaneously see the error in thinking He would force us to accept Him, and only then giving us free will as an after-thought.  The first is perfect love.  Can you see the second isn't? Gods love is not a like a test to see who wins. If God chooses us to be allowed to make our own choice then God chooses the extent of our own choice. Which is the same thing as saying God chooses us. If you are saying that we must be absolutely free in order to choose then there cannot be a necessary influence to make us choose one way or the other... but if God choose to allow us to choose freely then God is pre influencing our free choice... so your saying the same thing i am.. that it is necessary that we choose what we choose because God is involved with our choice before we choose by allowing us to choose freely... or choosing us to choose freely. I agree there is a necessity before we choose. Kk... God loves us not out of His freedom to love ...but He loves us out of His mercy. Love is not love if it is not directed from a condescending manner because God sees the reality of this difference. Love is proved by the lack of loveliness of the object and the worthy love of the lover. This is Gods greater love ..to love unworthy sinners. But the love is an ability that God gives for us to be worthy. Its not a blind freedom. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3135  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: August 24, 2010, 10:05:07 AM Its interesting that  the parable begins with a statement of fact. I do not want to build a doctrine on the details of these parables. But you can say that because they were wise or foolish ..they acted accordingly. The parable does not start off with Ten virgins that were separated by their behavior about the oil. The point of the parable is those virgins who knew Christ took the extra oil with them. The ot idea is that oil is an anointing tool that shows a spiritual identity.  This is a covenant blessing. The covenant community has this anointing from the head to the toe. Its the holistic anointing as a parallel to teaching that creates this covenant unity. The nt calls this being of one mind. But every one in covenant unity is led along by word and Spirit. This longing to be taught is the influence that creates the reality. Because the application of the covenant faithfulness of God is the teaching that produces the reality. This is the idea that is applied in forgetting what is behind and stretching toward the mark. We could apply this as simply believing to believe. Trusting in and relying upon.  Its interesting that without the oil there is no entrance into Christ kingdom. Because the mark of a reprobate is self knowledge as the motif for finding the ultimate fulfillment in self. A person who has been regenerated and has been enlightened to the Person of Christ ... knows Christ. The oil of the Spirit and word is absolutely necessary for surviving.