3136	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Is "Reformed Doctrine" Eclectic?	on: August 22, 2010, 04:25:24 PM
The reason there is still a crucified Christ as a symbol is because the Eucharist is offered as Christ blood and body by the means of transubstantiation. Because of the succession of the Apostles authority.. this authority represented in Papal authority then it is necessary that the Priest have the authority to bless the elements so that they become the actual blood and body of Christ. The elements are changed by transubstantiation. This is why the person receiving the wafer does not leave the hand of  the priest to the congregants  hand .But it goes straight to his mouth. The teaching is distinct from the protestant understanding of the Supper... and the distinction is represented by Christ body still hanging on the tree. The message is that you can go to a Sunday mass and re crucify by transubstantiation of his body and blood in order to receive the forgiveness of sins. Even tho you are saved in a universal way ... yet since justification by faith was administered at the first Eucharist as an infusion of righteousness instead of the Reformation teaching of imputation... then your grace and righteousness can be lost and it is necessary for you to be infused once again by .... confession .....that is doing some kind of penance ...participation in the Eucharist. We believe that a man is righteous by the work of Christ alone and it does not matter what place or function the man is doing... he still enjoys the same righteousness of Christ that does not change. Reformation rule: Christ body is local not eternal.
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3137  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 19, 2010, 11:07:55 AM I believe Scripture also makes it clear that we have a God-given part in salvation.  We become willing to want Him in our lives, we grow to hunger and thirst for Him, we ask / seek / knock for Him, we receive Him when the time is right.  It is He alone Who grants us our part in salvation.  He is the impulse, the initiator, the empower, the drawer, the inspirer, and He builds our freedom to accept or reject His advances. Kk the only reason that i am going to give you the harsh reality of your doctrine is because i am showing a defense of my own. Kk.. you got to own... your own philosophy. Your saying the difference between you and another person is that you allow God to save you but the other guy deserves to be punished because he failed. You have a catch 22 theology. You have a glitch in your reasoning. You are able to deny the obvious and defend your reasoning as an undefend -able denial. You succeed and the other guy failed. At the same time you are making God out to be a Jim Jones. He gives everyone the poison at the end. If God is like this then why not end it sooner? Obviously this is not a trait of man.. it is an evil concoction of Satan the great accuser. If God honors your desire to allow Him to save you then lets be fair ... i mean... God is fair isnt He? Thats your basic argument. Then if these people do not want to be with God let them have what they want. To live apart from God. Your thinking is full of contradictions. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3138  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 19, 2010, 10:35:54 AM Ps...i agree.....MBG...that God synergizes our will toward His...which makes sense...since He's God and we're not. ..actually His creation.   Our desire comes as a "Free choice" b/c of the "result" of God  saving us from the sin which so entangled and kept us in 'darkness"...not as a pre-requisite of Him doing so....which is the cart "before" the horse...in error of how the Bible states it works.    Yes...its interesting that God dealt with Israel as one church. They actually are the OT church in types and shadows of the NT church. So that God who is the highest of beings is the only one who is worthy to rule. Then there is a procession of beings that reflect Gods holiness the closer they get to that rule in heaven. You see how the closer these beings get to the throne and what kind of worship they are performing nite and day. So this is apart from the corruption of this earth. But it is not realistically any different than the glory and praise God receives from these heavenly beings. God who sits in throned in heaven actually calls Himself the King of Israel. This is why the scriptures say that the earth is His footstool. Not as a wish but realistically ruling in the hearts of His people. And what does this holy God declare as He comes in His procession from Heaven? This mighty army with these absolutely glorious reflections of Gods glory. He pronounces judgment on His enemies while at the same time coming as the Savior of His people. He comes to judge His people and warn that one day He is going to separate the wheat from the chaff. God rules these earthly kingdoms from His throne. For who has resisted God? Men think there is no trouble coming. Men think there is no one watching. But God sees every thing. God works to bring the just recompense to all the nations. Because God must be seen in this secret providence as we look beyond this earth and see this procession to the throne that God is in absolute control over these corrupted things since He is honored as God by these higher beings.We must view God as He is in our worship. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3139  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 19, 2010, 06:16:51 AM Kk... i agree that we choose to be saved. I do not think we are robots in this way. When we are regenerated we are given the gift of saving faith. The faith has two sides to it. On the one side our spiritual eyes have been illuminated for the first time and we are able to see the value of Christ life. The object who is Christ defines our choosing Him. So that we are enabled to believe and rest upon Christ. We apprehend Him by faith and we obey Him in turning to Him as our only hope. I guess you could say this is like our holding onto Him. But we could never obey Him perfectly. This is why we look back at our first experience and we conclude that God chooses us. We would be foolish to think that our bare choice had anything to do with our salvation. The answer to getting people saved is to teach them that salvation is all of God. Or salvation is in God alone. Because no one will believe on his own. He must be given an ability.. which is faith ... to apprehend Christ. But the transfer of this spiritual power only flows one way. We believe what we think. This is why the bible says that we are what we think. If we get these truths mixed up then we are only harming our own selves. And in turn we are presenting a false image of salvation. This is why there is so much false religious zeal in this world.Because we have a lack of the understanding of where our confidence comes from and how it works out in the reality of assurance. The problem with arminian theology is that it puts the focus on the wrong things. In order for the message to be presented in its proper context it must be centered in God. This is why law- gospel cannot be tampered with. The focus is really not even our powerlessness or inability to be saved. The focus is on a covenant keeping God. We do not hear a completed view of God as a covenant God because of all of the dispensational propaganda that creates a false image of the ot law and nt gospel. It presents a God who begins His relationship with His people as a law giver rather than seeing that God established a relationship to His people through covenants prior to the giving of the law. God chooses a people for Himself before the foundation of the world.. the OT is a historical account of Gods faithfulness to His chosen people. God covenants with His people in the Abrahamic covenant... it was totally one sided. God established His relationship with His covenant people in His eternal love. We are really not even looking back at our own salvation and concluding that God chose us and that is why we are His. But we are trained to look back at Gods eternal love and faithfulness in this covenant community that He determined to place us in light of His eternal decrees. When we know God we understand it is a family relationship in which we no longer are in this unrest about our proving God is God. Salvation is in God alone because we rest in His eternal love for us. Sorry this one is so long.. Let me explain GOds covenant love in the OT. God established His relationship with the Nation of Israel... it was through His choice. Each new Israelite was to be circumsized as being represented in the covenant community. But God did not chose to use circumcision as the method for giving salvation. God determined to love Jacob and hate Esau...both circumsized Israelites. So that in the covenant community you have an idol worshiper coming from the same family as a covenant keeper. This is why there is this inward war going on throughout the OT account of Israels back sliding. Its the children of the promise at war with the children of the law. The promise was in the covenant faithfulness of God.. while the child of works was related to by God in this alienation from these covenant assurances. It was so obvious that the parent of the child could see who was a child of the promise. This is why the ot record of how the families functioned were from a covenant perspective and not a relational and psychological one. Gods view of covenant community was this microscopic view into the covenant families. It went rite into the most personal parts of living. The point being that God was faithful to one and at odds with the other child because of Gods choice.    Remove Reply Quote Notify

3140  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How long can you go without sinning? on: August 17, 2010, 10:33:44 PM LC.. one of the reasons that people think like this is because of this confusing religious environment we live in. People do not normally focus on themselves with the intent to feel like sin is so big that they are as helpless as the bum or the mentally handicapped. The definition of sin has been reduced to the way a man acts in light of his willingness to get alone in community. But sin is bigger than we can handle when we are alone or we are tempted to present ourselves before others in a light that is not all together true. Most people try to figure out how to overcome sin by a method of exposure. They think if they would just confess the sin that they could change. They do not see that sin will always bring them to the realization as long as they are on this earth ... that they have been doing sin for so long so that they feel as if they are worse than everyone else...its not what they want to acknowledge.  Because people naturally want to live before others as a good example. But sin makes us all actors ... and we make the world our stage. We do not think that sin is like a disease that is incurable. We do not compare sin to cancer or to mental illness. We make up physiological terms in order to explain how we fail one another. In this kind of environment we dream that we are developing better and more deeper relationships because of our exposing ourselves to others that we are in need. But sin is much deeper than this.... we are easily talked into exalting ourselves by excusing our sin as being psychological. We do not naturally acknowledge that we have a problem with sin because it is something we cannot cut out of our lives. We think that if we acknowledge that sin is in every thought...its in every good deed that we do.. its the reason for most of our motives that we would live in misery because we feel no hope of ever having an ability to prove that we are good. But sin is like the hidden treasure that enables us to find grace. You know we are unable to do good because sin is in our members. But we are able to find grace and that is all the good we need. Without sin we would not know grace.   Reply Quote Notify

3141  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Is "Reformed Doctrine" Eclectic? on: August 17, 2010, 09:55:37 PM First there is not much of a discussion about doctrine but its mostly about the history in the early reformation. So there are some problems at this time because these doctrinal issues about the sacrament of the Lords supper and baptism had not been fully worked out in an understandable way. So in this environment there is always a tendency to go to extremes because without the foundation of clearly defined doctrines then a man could have more authority than he is suppose to have. This issue about the place of the Word of God and the disagreement between protestants and Catholics about the place it holds over the church is not new. The catholics believe that the authority of the church has an equal place with the word of God. This is why you have indulgences, the succession of saints , the place Mary has as an authoritative figure etc. But Christ did place His word as the final authority over ones life. He said sanctify them by thy truth thy word is truth. Not sanctify them by the authority of the apostles words, or Christ words plus the churchs teaching. In fact the Apostle said to follow him as He followed Christ. Or Christ rule through His word. This is the rule ....the only way to be sanctified is by word and Spirit. The apostle exhorted the people who were members of the church to study the scriptures .He would say... i could not give you the meat of the word because you are still on the milk diet. The apostle never said to follow him without question because he received the message directly from Christ. In fact it says in acts that Peter told the people who had been under his preaching ... when they began bowing before him as a holy father... Peter told them immediately to get up and  that Peter put his pants on the same way they did. He did not have authority for people to believe that Peter was separated from the people as the spokesmen for God. In other words Christ is the head of the church... the authority is Christ authority alone. The apostles were to feed the flock the whole counsel of God. The people were responsible to here the message of the gospel as it is a single message.     Reply Quote Notify

3142  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 17, 2010, 05:48:15 AM Kk... i know you mean well but if you want to prove to me that your not presenting a position of belief in a dogmatic way then i will agree that the doctrinal arguments have no importance Its like calling the kettle black. I know you have a great devotion to God but these areas that we are disagreeing about are black and white areas. Theres no gray area in sovereign grace. Because the kind of grace that one believes about is his view of himself and the contradictions before a holy God. The contradictions work in us to produce propensities to view life as a mix between mans philosophies and Gods laws. What we are arguing about here is a way of belief rather than history verses Kk. The way of belief presents a path that we take in this life. This is why we do not want to chain any part of Gods word to the lectern. We present a healthy life by a holistic doctrine in the doctrines of grace. When we say that mans will is sovereign and Gods will is sovereign in holding that there is equal power in a struggle then that is a contradiction. Because we are saying that there is no cause if the balance tips one way or the other. Who would look at a car and conclude that it did not come from a single designer?  But it came from two designers who were at odds with one another. This is why the bible gives us only two directions. One direction is life... not in duration but quality... if you study the origins... its always life eternal. The other is death or the experience of dread and alienation from God. There is no in between consciousness. I have already shown you that just like eternal life is in the bible which represents our being united with Christ for all eternity... so there is eternal punishment... a conscious existence apart from Christ. But i am not the one arguing for  annihilation. There is enough evidence in scripture to say that death...destruction... etc is an eternal conscious existence from the presence of God. I am simply bringing to our minds these individual scriptures that talk about eternal consciousness on the other side in the presence of Christ ... or apart from Christ.If eternal punishment does not mean conscious punishment then eternal life does not mean conscious bliss because these are always set in opposition of one another as proof of a real distinction. The ongoing present tense verbs would have no meaning.  But on the other hand if being expelled fro m the garden was death pronouncement then you need to show me this concept of annihilation as being biblical.   I need a direct statement like He ends their conscious existence.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

3143  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 16, 2010, 10:14:25 PM If all men are part of the plan of redemption... the work of Christ on the cross then all men would believe. But obviously this is not the case. Just because all ... every one... the world...any...doesnt mean everyone in the world. Because there are text in which it would be physically impossible for all to be everyone. Look at John the Baptist ... it says that everyone in the known christian world came to John to be baptized. We know this could not be. The pharisees who stood around and mock John would have made all not mean all. You can translate this in the context of the NT and the doctrine of God. 1.. God has a desire but not necessarily a complete will. Just like we desire... God is not a robot. The Father loves us with desire. God can desire all men to come to the salvation but it is not His will. 2. All men could mean spreading the gospel beyond Jerusalem. In acts this concept is taught. Local regions... to the surrounding regions..to the ends of the earth. When the apostle says that salvation is for all men... he may be saying that its the gospel that is going out to the ends of the earth. 3 All could be translated according to the local context. If the author is writing to a specific group... the church of... then its everyone in that group who are saved. Since not every man is saved it is impossible that a gospel could be used with the prepositions... verbs... and adjectives and have a literal meaning if it was added in for those who do not believe. Then these phrases would lose their universal grammar meaning about concepts from words in other areas of the bible.    Reply Quote Notify

3144  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 16, 2010, 09:32:18 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on August 13, 2010, 03:44:34 AM Thanks, sqt2.  I appreciate your openness to a new concept, and your willingness to search the Scriptures to see if it could be true. I would also like to hear whatever Retro and Bill might have to offer.  I've stated the case for conditional immortality about as redundantly as i can tolerate.  But on the other hand, if anyone wants to give their best shot at defending unending torture of the lost, i think i could be given fresh inspiration to review it again, with a patience beyond my own. In my thinking, there are few topics in religion that are more important than to see the character and compassion of our Dad with ever more clarity, in the pages of Scripture, and in our lives. I am still waiting for you to show me the word for annihilation.  Because of the immortal desire that is place in man ... that is evidenced in mans looking at the enemy in his body of which the soul is effected adversely. Every man is given a soul and this is the uno struggle for all mankind. Its the fear of death. Death is the enemy. Its not the friend. Why would God give a man a natural desire to live ... and the ultimate war in man is the body and the soul and at the same time annihilate the body and the soul for the sake of his dying members? There is no place in scripture where it says the soul of man is going to die. In fact it is the opposite. What can a man give in place of his soul? His mansions and his name are temporary pleasures ... he cant take it with him... his soul is the eternal value... thats why he argues there is nothing a man can give for his soul. There is no value measurement in the warning of the law.. the value is receiving the consequences. Sin has no reality without death... but death is a life long enemy... not a one time experience. But since the soul is a creation of God then it is good and good in Gods eyes is eternal. Hes not even going to destroy the creation.. its going to go through a final renewal.    The philosophy of annihilation is like suicide. The end of this struggle is in salvation.  Its a dream for man to end the struggle through suicide. If salvation is the only answer for death then since death is the ultimate enemy... then how can salvation be considered valuable if there is annihilation? That is like the easy way out as a word that is not mentioned in the bible. You cannot have motion in a man without this defining struggle between the body and the soul.  I will get to this later.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

3145  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: The incredible shrinking economy on: August 16, 2010, 06:34:41 PM   The Ecstasy of Empire   Paul Craig Roberts Infowars.com August 16, 2010 The United States is running out of time to get its budget and trade deficits under control.  Despite the urgency of the situation, 2010 has been wasted in hype about a non-existent recovery.  As recently as August 2 Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner penned a New York Times column, “Welcome to the Recovery.”    revolution.jpg       Without a revolution, Americans are history.       As John Williams (shadowstats.com) has made clear on many occasions, an appearance of recovery was created by over-counting employment and undercounting inflation. Warnings by Williams, Gerald Celente, and myself have gone unheeded, but our warnings recently had echoes from Boston University professor Laurence Kotlikoff and from David Stockman, who excoriated the Republican Party for becoming big-spending Democrats. It is encouraging to see some realization that, this time, Washington cannot spend the economy out of recession. The deficits are already too large for the dollar to survive as reserve currency, and deficit spending cannot put Americans back to work in jobs that have been moved offshore. However, the solutions offered by those who are beginning to recognize that there is a problem are discouraging. Kotlikoff thinks the solution is savage Social Security and Medicare cuts or equally savage tax increases or hyperinflation to destroy the vast debts. Perhaps economists lack imagination, or perhaps they don’t want to be cut off from Wall Street and corporate subsidies, but Social Security and Medicare are insufficient at their present levels, especially considering the erosion of private pensions by the dot com, derivative and real estate bubbles. Cuts in Social Security and Medicare, for which people have paid 15 per cent of their earnings all their lives, would result in starvation and deaths from curable diseases. Tax increases make even less sense. It is widely acknowledged that the majority of households cannot survive on one job. Both husband and wife work and often one of the partners has two jobs in order to make ends meet. Raising taxes makes it harder to make ends meet–thus more foreclosures, more food stamps, more homelessness. What kind of economist or humane person thinks this is a solution? Ah, but we will tax the rich. The rich have enough money. They will simply stop earning. Let’s get real.  Here is what the government is likely to do.  Once  Washington realize that the dollar is at risk and that they can no longer finance their wars by borrowing abroad, the government will either levy a tax on private pensions on the grounds that the pensions have accumulated tax-deferred, or the government will require pension fund managers to purchase Treasury debt with our pensions. This will buy the government a bit more time while pension accounts are loaded up with worthless paper. The last Bush budget deficit (2008) was in the $400-500 billion range, about the size of the Chinese, Japanese, and OPEC trade surpluses with the US. Traditionally, these trade surpluses have been recycled to the US and finance the federal budget deficit. In 2009 and 2010 the federal deficit jumped to $1,400 billion, a back-to-back trillion dollar increase. There are not sufficient trade surpluses to finance a deficit this large. From where comes the money? The answer is from individuals fleeing the stock market into “safe” Treasury bonds and from the bankster bailout, not so much the TARP money as the Federal Reserve’s exchange of bank reserves for questionable financial paper such as subprime derivatives. The banks used their excess reserves to purchase Treasury debt. These financing maneuvers are one-time tricks. Once people have fled stocks, that movement into Treasuries is over. The opposition to the bankster bailout likely precludes another. So where does the money come from the next time? The Treasury was able to unload a lot of debt thanks to “the Greek crisis,” which the New York banksters and hedge funds multiplied into “the euro crisis.” The financial press served as a financing arm for the US Treasury by creating panic about European debt and the euro. Central banks and individuals who had taken refuge from the dollar in euros were panicked out of their euros, and they rushed into dollars by purchasing US Treasury debt. This movement from euros to dollars weakened the alternative reserve currency to the dollar, halted the dollar’s decline, and financed the US budget deficit a while longer. Possibly the game can be replayed with Spanish debt, Irish debt, and whatever unlucky country is eswept in by the thoughtless expansion of the European Union. But when no countries remain that can be destabilized by Wall Street investment banksters and hedge funds, what then finances the US budget deficit? The only remaining financier is the Federal Reserve. When Treasury bonds brought to auction do not sell, the Federal Reserve must purchase them. The Federal Reserve purchases the bonds by creating new demand deposits, or checking accounts, for the Treasury. As the Treasury spends the proceeds of the new debt sales, the US money supply expands by the amount of the Federal Reserve’s purchase of Treasury debt. Do goods and services expand by the same amount?  Imports will increase as US jobs have been offshored and given to foreigners, thus worsening the trade deficit.  When the Federal Reserve purchases the Treasury’s new debt issues, the money supply will increase by more than the supply of domestically produced goods and services. Prices are likely to rise. How high will they rise? The longer money is created in order that government can pay its bills, the more likely hyperinflation will be the result. The economy has not recovered. By the end of this year it will be obvious that the collapsing economy means a larger than $1.4 trillion budget deficit to finance. Will it be $2 trillion? Higher? Whatever the size, the rest of the world will see that the dollar is being printed in such quantities that it cannot serve as reserve currency. At that point wholesale dumping of dollars will result as foreign central banks try to unload a worthless currency. Fresh food that lasts from eFoods Direct (Ad) The collapse of the dollar will drive up the prices of imports and offshored goods on which Americans are dependent. Wal-Mart shoppers will think they have mistakenly gone into Neiman Marcus. Domestic prices will also explode as a growing money supply chases the supply of goods and services still made in America by Americans. The dollar as reserve currency cannot survive the conflagration. When the dollar goes the US cannot finance its trade deficit. Therefore, imports will fall sharply, thus adding to domestic inflation and, as the US is energy import-dependent, there will be transportation disruptions that will disrupt work and grocery store deliveries. Panic will be the order of the day. Will farms will be raided? Will those trapped in cities resort to riots and looting? Is this the likely future that “our” government and “our patriotic” corporations have created for us? To borrow from Lenin, “What can be done?” Here is what can be done. The wars, which benefit no one but the military-security complex and Israel’s territorial expansion, can be immediately ended. This would reduce the US budget deficit by hundreds of billions of dollars per year.  More hundreds of billions of dollars could be saved by cutting the rest of the military budget which, in its present size, exceeds the budgets of all the serious military powers on earth combined. US military spending reflects the unaffordable and unattainable crazed neoconservative  goal of US Empire and world hegemony. What fool in Washington thinks that China is going to finance US hegemony over China? The only way that the US will again have an economy is by bringing back the offshored jobs. The loss of these jobs impoverished Americans while producing oversized gains for Wall Street, shareholders, and corporate executives. These jobs can be brought home where they belong by taxing corporations according to where value is added to their product. If value is added to their goods and services in China, corporations would have a high tax rate. If value is added to their goods and services in the US, corporations would have a low tax rate. This change in corporate taxation would offset the cheap foreign labor that has sucked jobs out of America, and it would rebuild the ladders of upward mobility that made America an opportunity society. If the wars are not immediately stopped and the jobs brought back to America, the US is relegated to the trash bin of history. Obviously, the corporations and Wall Street would use their financial power and campaign contributions to block any legislation that would reduce short-term earnings and bonuses by bringing jobs back to America. Americans have no greater enemies than Wall Street and the corporations and their prostitutes in Congress and the White House. The neocons allied with Israel, who control both parties and much of the media, are strung out on the ecstasy of Empire. The United States and the welfare of its 300 million people cannot be restored unless the neocons, Wall Street, the corporations, and their servile slaves in Congress and the White House can be defeated. Without a revolution, Americans are history. Dr. Paul Craig Roberts is the father of Reagonomics and the former head of policy at the Department of Treasury. He is a columnist and was previously the editor of the Wall Street Journal. His latest book, “How the Economy Was Lost: The War of the Worlds,” details why America is disintegrating. The antidote is getting money flowing through the private sector as quickly as possible. Although i agree with most of this article... i think we need tax free zones in this country as the incentive to produce from this country. Possibly having sovereignty(an i o u later... to the big spenders) within states. Its more expensive now...not wage wise .. but tax wise..... to produce from inside this country. Along with the regulations. States have got to have a fall back plan when things begin to unravel. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3146  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 15, 2010, 10:09:18 AM Rev. 20 7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. This is staring you in the face here. The Dead Are Judged  11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. A reference to the anguish of a man separated from God for all eternity... like suffering in fire. God being present but not accessible. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3147  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 14, 2010, 06:06:16 PM Quote from: mybigGod on August 12, 2010, 01:56:01 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on August 12, 2010, 01:42:24 PM mbG:  "Kk the bible never says that the state of death is annihilation. Nor does it say that destruction is necessarily the destruction of things. Theres a difference between spiritual death and physical death. Just because someone is spiritually dead does not mean they are annihilated. And people can be a party of destruction by causing sin.  So contextually you need to have a clear reference of death and destruction to be translated as ending completely." K_k:  You have done what i requested we not do.  Being vague about immortality is not sufficient for dialogue, we need Scripture.  So let me repeat the challenge i made to you above.  Sorry to be so repetitive, but i want you to see the exact challenge i offer you. ====== K_k previous reply: I am willing for you to prove me wrong Scripturally, if you can.  First, can you agree that Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden so they wouldn't become immortal sinners?  If not, we will look at the exact wording in Genesis. Second, can you agree that only God has immortality, (including, of course, Jesus Christ Who is the Source of unending Life) at present?  If not, we will see what the Bible says about that. Third, can you agree that Believers do not have immortality, but have to "put it on at the Resurrection"?  This is a clear statement by Paul.  Christ has to give us new bodies which never again die. Fourth, you may search all you want for a Biblical statement that the lost, who are mortal, put on immortal bodies, but you will not find it.  Instead you find references to their Second Death, their dead bodies will be seen in the Lake of Fire, they are said to be destroyed body and soul, burned up like dead weeds/branches, turned to ashes like Sodom and Gemorrah. So it would be fairly easy for you to prove me wrong, if you can.  Just show me a Scripture which actually says everyone has an immortal soul, or that the lost put on immortality the same as Believers do, or that God is not the only one Who is immortal at this time. I await your research.  I hope we can focus on these points and not just go off into vague ramblings which miss these points.  Thanks. Yes but real immortality is God. Who never changes. Mortal is created by God. Mortal is dependent on God. Mortal has a form... it has a spacial feature. Mortal is subject to change. All of these characteristics are part of our being in immortality. Or living on an on.....  Look there is so much to talk about here. There is nothing more vague than a one trick pony writer. And its a marry go round pony.hehe I will give you scripture when He tells me to. Cause i dont want to cheapen these direct statements of scripture. I already quoted a scripture that directly said eternal punishment. Once a person denies that a scripture is saying what it is obviously saying ... i will explore every thing i can... both scripture and meta physical common sense. I believe that all false teaching is a denial of some meta physical reality. Meta physical reality is a common sense structure of speech that we get our grammar from. Kk there is nothing more vague than equal forces that represent freedom... that is non existence. I am still waiting for you to show me where the word annihilation is translated in the bible. Ok... i put my foot in my mouth... i mean immutable not immortal ... all souls are immortal ..but mutable. So put mutable in place of my arguments about the eternal. God is immutable. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3148  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 14, 2010, 02:57:05 PM This is a struggle between our having a position that we think is a saving position and another identity that Christ never intended for us to struggle with. Our thinking about these things determines our growing in this new paradigm. Because there are a lot of reminders that are presented to us in an image form of a teaching... i mean.. it comes in more than just the letter of the word ... it comes in the spirit of the word , that brings about a confusion as we are encouraged to focus. This is a life that we place before us these unfeigned supernatural qualities and they become the foundation in which we are what we do not always look like on the outside. It is a life of living in the vine... for without Him we can do nothing. Sin and temptation has been taken care of by Christ. It is a past identity that we struggle with in the present. We learn to trust Christ because we know Him as our only source of salvation. Christ has obtained salvation at the cross. We have received this salvation as if we do not sin in the old way. That way was a way of condemnation. Christ way is a life of salvation. Not only did we die in our identity in Christ but we died to our old confidence in the law and our relationship to how we responded to our conscience. We no longer are under the law in a relationship of all things having equal power. Our sin no longer reigns over us. The power of sin has been broken. It was not broken in our being saved but the work was accomplished at the cross. So that it was done many yrs ago but it was transferred to us in the present through grace. Sin and salvation was obtained in the power struggle when Christ was crucified. When He said it is finished ... salvation for the elect was accomplished for the past and present and future saints. Our confidence in our image of ourselves is in a work that we are looking at a long time ago. We no longer are under the condemning work of the law. The power of the law is in the flesh.The law reminds us of the condemning power. It reminds us of our old servitude to principles and people. We look at that struggle and we know it was ended when we obtained salvation. Now we look at our sins outside of Gods condemning reminders. We look at sin through grace. We are the subjects of total freedom from the powers of the flesh because the law no longer frustrates us so that we face Gods anger towards us. Because Christ obtained salvation on our behalf then His love was extended to us as the source of all of these gospel initiatives.  Reply Quote Notify

3149  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free will self transformation = determinism. on: August 14, 2010, 02:19:46 PM We have a self image according to our relationship to these supernatural determinations that come to us in our lack of understanding in all of the intricately woven renewal effects to our souls. These effects bypass our wills at the point of our being brought to our relinquishing our ability. For we are unable to do one good thing by our human understanding in our present abilities. We must conclude in this basic renewal ascending to God in our worship and in our prayers that we have been led by the hand of God to something that we could never work up in a purely mechanical way that in which the world works. We are totally mystified when we are brought to the experience of the door of the supernatural. This is not an equal connection between our own power of intellect joined in understanding Gods revelation. God must precede His renewal revealing. For His righteousness is the door through which we enter and that door is the beginning of our confusion. The door is the Person of Christ. We enter through Christ. And when He knocks we open because we acknowledge that we have no ability to be accepted on our own. This door is the righteousness of Christ. It is a foreign righteousness. God is pleased to protect His own from self confidence in this City of God. It is that gate alone in which we enter. We drop all of our self confidence when we enter. We say not by power nor by might but by His Spirit says the Lord. All those who hold onto some of their own filthy rags will be turned away from this gate to the celestial city. It is a very narrow way and it is related to these very specific gospel calls in which the soul is brought under the power of the eternal verities. For we enter worship as unworthy sinners whose only claim to self confidence is our sin. This is our performance that we bring into worship. It is filthy rags. For no one can believe unless he is so identified with Christ that He ceases to love his life. Because Christ love is better than our own lives. For it is not unto us .. not unto us... but to His name be the glory... because of His love and faithfulness. All other ways are not acceptable.We conclude that it is Gods power alone in which we stand! Remove Reply Quote Notify

3150	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free will self transformation = determinism.	on: August 14, 2010, 11:09:31 AM
I do not think we are trying to prove who God is by a set of doctrines. God is much bigger than the words on a page. He is much bigger than limits of the communication He has in His revelation to man. This is why there is really no agency in which God can order His work in a successful way other then through Himself. This is why we say that salvation is in God alone. In God alone is the work of redemption as the reality of all good. Not only do we conclude that we are naturally blind to the spiritually good but we communicate about God in making Him what we think He should be. This is the problem with our lack of understanding as righteousness from heaven meets corruption. We are always making other gods by our lack of acknowledgment that in God alone is salvation.  This is why God must be the revelation and the revealer. Because in our natural selves we want a revelation of God according to something good we have acquired in our natural abilities. But God is not like us... God is other. The moment that we say we have found God as He is ... that is the moment we attribute our ability to be a part of the glory of God. God will not share His glory with any man. God must come to us in eternal love and faithfulness in which He communicates His otherness. This is why the apostle says who can understand the love of God? It goes beyond all communication on a horizontal level as proof of Gods salvation being in Himself and for His own glory!God is faithful because He cannot deny Himself. God has one will and He does whatever pleases Him. This is why the relationship to this majestic and holy God is one of absolute rule over the earth. The earth is His footstool. His throne is not just a place but it is the reality of Gods faithfulness and love that is absolutely certain to bring to Himself His own ends. God has set up His throne in every space in eternity. Because Gods throne is the working out of His law over the whole earth. God comes and will not be silent... God speaks and He judges the thoughts and the intents off all of mens hearts throughout all eternity in one thought before the world began. For where can we go to escape Gods ruling hand? If we go up to the heavens He is there ... if we go down to the depths of the earth He is there. We must conclude that God rules this earth as He rules the wills of men . Because God not only knows mens hearts but He searches them unto His final end of bringing Himself glory. Who can resist Gods will? Who are you oh man to talk back to God? 3152  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 12, 2010, 02:57:12 PM Kk we both agree that if you bow the knee then it becomes clear that God determined you to be saved. And if you never bow the knee then its clear that God never determined you to be saved. So at what point do we end the semantics and just conclude like the Apostle that God determines it and it doesnt matter about how... inwardly. Obviously if a man goes into eternal punishment the only way that he will be able is for God to make it so. Why wait until the end for God to be God? Hes the same God prior to creation as He is in the judgment. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3153  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 12, 2010, 01:56:01 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on August 12, 2010, 01:42:24 PM mbG:  "Kk the bible never says that the state of death is annihilation. Nor does it say that destruction is necessarily the destruction of things. Theres a difference between spiritual death and physical death. Just because someone is spiritually dead does not mean they are annihilated. And people can be a party of destruction by causing sin.  So contextually you need to have a clear reference of death and destruction to be translated as ending completely." K_k:  You have done what i requested we not do.  Being vague about immortality is not sufficient for dialogue, we need Scripture.  So let me repeat the challenge i made to you above.  Sorry to be so repetitive, but i want you to see the exact challenge i offer you. ====== K_k previous reply: I am willing for you to prove me wrong Scripturally, if you can.  First, can you agree that Adam and Eve were banned from the Garden of Eden so they wouldn't become immortal sinners?  If not, we will look at the exact wording in Genesis. Second, can you agree that only God has immortality, (including, of course, Jesus Christ Who is the Source of unending Life) at present?  If not, we will see what the Bible says about that. Third, can you agree that Believers do not have immortality, but have to "put it on at the Resurrection"?  This is a clear statement by Paul.  Christ has to give us new bodies which never again die. Fourth, you may search all you want for a Biblical statement that the lost, who are mortal, put on immortal bodies, but you will not find it.  Instead you find references to their Second Death, their dead bodies will be seen in the Lake of Fire, they are said to be destroyed body and soul, burned up like dead weeds/branches, turned to ashes like Sodom and Gemorrah. So it would be fairly easy for you to prove me wrong, if you can.  Just show me a Scripture which actually says everyone has an immortal soul, or that the lost put on immortality the same as Believers do, or that God is not the only one Who is immortal at this time. I await your research.  I hope we can focus on these points and not just go off into vague ramblings which miss these points.  Thanks. Yes but real immortality is God. Who never changes. Mortal is created by God. Mortal is dependent on God. Mortal has a form... it has a spacial feature. Mortal is subject to change. All of these characteristics are part of our being in immortality. Or living on an on.....  Look there is so much to talk about here. There is nothing more vague than a one trick pony writer. And its a marry go round pony.hehe I will give you scripture when He tells me to. Cause i dont want to cheapen these direct statements of scripture. I already quoted a scripture that directly said eternal punishment. Once a person denies that a scripture is saying what it is obviously saying ... i will explore every thing i can... both scripture and meta physical common sense. I believe that all false teaching is a denial of some meta physical reality. Meta physical reality is a common sense structure of speech that we get our grammar from. Kk there is nothing more vague than equal forces that represent freedom... that is non existence. I am still waiting for you to show me where the word annihilation is translated in the bible. Ok... i put m y foot in my mouth... i mean immutable not immortal ... all souls are immortal ..but mutable. So put mutable in place of my arguments about the eternal. God is immutable. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3154  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 12, 2010, 01:28:16 PM Annihilation is not in scripture because it is a form of suicide. I mean... its like a wish that conscious being could end. Because real meaning in this life is not just a reality of being alive. But it is a intelligent understanding of the purpose in this life as it relates to the self. We cannot define our total existence as just having a sense of consciousness but we know reality as we know the image of who we are. So we could say that our entire mental connection to how we view ourselves and the circumstances of our entire lives make up who we are. So there is a form of the soul and a form of body but there is also a form of personality..  identifiable characteristics that separate us from everyone else. There is also that conscious interaction between our bodies and souls in living with in these circumstances that defines our level of consciousness. Annihilation of consciousness is impossible.  Consciousness is really a timeless experience. Because we live in the reality of our memories as well as having faith as enjoying a future fact. These experiences overlap so that our general conscious level in our growing awareness can be different in how we experienced reality and its effects on our memories at specific times. Because there really is no such thing as a present experience... we move from the past to the future in the movement of the clock. This is why the bible talks about rewards and punishment. Because this life is necessary in order to connect time and eternity with our level of awareness for eternal consciousness in how we lived in this time sequence. Just like having these forms about us that we cannot define as we came into this world that  make us a conscious individual. So we value our sojourn on this earth in connecting some of these collective forms in our next life in eternity.  If there is any such thing as annihilation then it would be like denying there was any past reality that makes us think about who we are in the present. The only way to lose a conscious connection in this life is through suicide. I mean as a comparative to annihilation.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3155  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 12, 2010, 05:05:26 AM Kk the bible never says that the state of death is annihilation. Nor does it say that destruction is necessarily the destruction of things. Theres a difference between spiritual death and physical death. Just because someone is spiritually dead does not mean they are annihilated. And people can be a party of destruction by causing sin.  So contextually you need to have a clear reference of death and destruction to be translated as ending completely. Can you show me where annihilation is mention in the bible? Remove Reply Quote Notify 3156  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 11, 2010, 07:08:16 PM Kk you are wrong about mortal and immortal.... that just makes a distinction about the eternal humanness to change... of which even Christ became man is changing in eternity. But we were created as free moral agents. In other words there is a personal eternal accountability or God would not be God.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 3157  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free will self transformation = determinism. on: August 11, 2010, 05:32:39 PM Here is the problem as it is... Gods sovereign reality is the only existence of real good in this universe. This is why you cant contend with God. God cannot really draw pleasure out of any other good than in Himself... In creating your own willing doctrine you nullify in contending  with two equal powers as your definition of real liberty... were there is no movement toward the object of choice. This is a phantom struggle that you imagine is real. The only real struggle is in your own frustration in making the object of choice more powerful than it really is. Any object is just a thing... but in your equilibrium practice it is the mystical object of avoidance or worship. Free will is paying a price for imaginative returns. If there could be a weight that was equal to its counter part and at the same time move the object in the equal tension then the law of non contradiction would be void of its power. But there is nothing good in equilibrium theology.... because it is a system of feelings....control.. and counter productive to its achievements. Equilibrium self determination promises change but delivers bondage to people and things. This is why we find the real truth in the truth of desire in close relation to the means of faith. Because we believe that every act of the will produces possibility and impossibility. The strongest desire is impossible that it should fail in the act of the will. Which is the definition of real liberty. The only reason that makes choice possible. The weakest desire is impossible that it should succeed in the act of the will. We are not avoiding the reality of the cause of choice. Because personal reasons for choice are from the condition of the personal powers of the soul. We are giving the full weight of responsibility to these personal motives. But the equilibrium self determination places all the power in the object of choice by denying the necessity of choice by its causes. Which is the motive out of the condition of the soul.  _subject_/_verb/__object_ Visualize what i said by this sentence diagram. This is what we are describing... a common sense universal truth of grammar. The will cannot be the subject and the verb at the same time. Let me say this also... free will theology is a denial of the reality to the powers of beings and things. The law does not provide power to change. The law is the instrument as a speaking curse of God. It is the power in the curse. The personal effects are represented in this ongoing reality of curses and blessings. Before the creation of the world God acted according to His nature which is the freedom of proof that He is most free, the highest good and a just God in His future response to sin and sinners in carrying out the law... that is in the words of God as they are breathed out are good because they provide the freedom for God to be God in His just declarations. One of the responses of God to the breakers of one of His laws is full payment in His on going desire as a pronounced judgment from that breach. Other wise God could not be most free in His just recompense. This is why it is folly to think that we can appease God through our obedience to His law. He sees the beginning from the end before it all began. He is most eternally free in His willing sight. Pause and think about this ongoing reality before the end. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3158  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 11, 2010, 09:18:50 AM STP wrote......I'm just a bit perplexed....but not shaken. Their just trying to stir you up .... there ...007 Remove Reply Quote Notify 3159  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 10, 2010, 07:54:02 PM Yes i agree that the drag is a word used rather than draw. But God could consume us with a very small word. So the bible uses ingrained ideas to parallel with the word of God as the instrument of salvation in which the Spirit prepares the soil. It is the word of God planted in the heart of man that is described as this secret work of regeneration that begins in new life. This is all to deep and wonderful for men to accomplish on their own. Salvation is much bigger than our response and Gods description of His work. This is why people are saved in a lot of different ways. We also believe that God works outside of the means... He regenerated John the Baptist in his mother. John had not even sinned in a responsible way. How can we describe that one? It would seem to be an arrogant personal testimony! hehe. But we must not put the emphasis on our decision but on Gods faithfulness. Because the gospel is Gods way of salvation. And if we do not believe we are saved then the gospel is all we need. Just listen to the gospel and at some point you will love the gospel. Because the gospel is the answer to our natural restlessness. We are not only to listen to the gospel as a method of salvation but it should be a way of life. A way of thinking. It should be like the blood flow in our veins. What purpose is good if it focuses on fits of emotion... what comes from a mans mouth... or its effects on a man in the sense of personal testimony. The gospel is life! The gospel is reality!Living in the gospel is living as if the world is much worse than we understand with our eyes and heaven is more real that we view in this life. Its living with these things of experience that are radical.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 3160  Forums / Theology Forum / Free will self transformation = determinism. on: August 10, 2010, 07:09:06 PM Ok lets turn the argument from defense to offense. If a man believes that he has liberty to reject the offer of salvation then that man believes his will can trump Gods will. That means salvation is a choice of man. It means that a man must first look to himself to be saved. If salvation is determined by a man then transformation is determined by man. This means that a man will have a circular thinking determinism like a humanist. He will look to himself to change himself. So we define the ability to determine ones destiny in his choices. That means all reality is determined upon the succession of a mans willing it to be. If a man is encouraged to look to himself ... his willing obedience both as necessary for salvation and for transformation then a man can thwart his good destiny. He can make his road easy or difficult by his own choices. Ok... let me breathe hehe. This is what i describe as humanism. This is a man determining his own destiny. This is a man who is discouraged when he looks outside himself for change.I am including other people as in himself as a kind of metaphor....in the first command motif. Any one who lives in determinism will find self fulfillment as the ultimate attainment. I mean... you can use the christian lingo... Gods grace... or His salvation but your design is to find the ultimate choice of these things by a mans freedom and power to choose in his own determinism. We were never created from a self power. That means we are not purposed to find our confidence in our willing obedience. Determinism is in the will of man to accomplish his transformation in his next action. But real salvation is looking outside of a mans will to Gods glory. All the real reality outside of determinism is living for eternity outside of transforming mans will in this life. Real transformation is becoming someone new for the next life. This is why self determined will is opposed to a living hope. Do not swallow self determinism. It will be a deceptive imagination that really ends in finding self fulfillment. But begin thinking outside of yourself. Focus on God alone. Let salvation be defined in God alone. Because we are looking to another world that brings salvation to us and that is when we have this living hope. I will show how this leads to depression.  Reply Quote Notify 3161  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Theology and the natural longings of the heart on: August 10, 2010, 06:27:52 PM Quote from: Priscilla JOY on August 08, 2010, 10:21:13 AM Patiently waiting for you to post more on this! Ok, I'm impatiently waiting What are the inconsistencies that you experienced? Yes Pj...I think our view of God is determined by our relationship to Him. This is why there are a lot of actions in the meta physical universe that come into reality before we make a choice. This is what separates us from the other created order. We can view ourselves in this other dimension...sorta like having another one of us in our understanding. We have a self image. This is why the bible places such a big premium on the way a man thinks in his heart! Because all realities in this world come as a result of how men think. I mean in how things go in this long line of the choices of men. There is this big upside in our process of discovery. If a man could be as god then he would need to have a view of reality that is as detailed as God views. So that the beginning of all the secret intents of the heart... these actions that have consequences... start in the origins of the way a man thinks and what he plans by these thoughts. Because these thoughts are in a moral universe where pain and sorrow... joy and glory are determined by how a man brings this reality into the unity of this moral equation in these relationships. This is why sin is defined in scripture as having another person who thinks in us. Because our first desire is to avoid thinking about God and what He says. We have a mind and a will ... emotion... conscience. We have the ability to choose what we want as good in a moral sense. I mean we are really not born thinking foolishly since our conscience is the natural check to desire to be a moral example. This is not the opposition ... i mean the choice to follow our conscience or to do bad. Because evil starts with this desire to think independently of God rather than to appear as a good guy or a moral example.  This is why God defines the struggle as to our definition of who is God? Because we naturally answer our conscience with a desire to do good for reasons that we cannot control... since corruption of our faculties gives a dark view of what is really good. God has declared that He alone is good. So in order to be spiritually good we must have God. Or our thoughts will go astray because we are in our own way. All of the troubles in this world are caused by corrupted men who think for themselves and view the world in this self transforming way.  Men learn to think in a way that has many ideas in which they develop a plan that is from a moral desire to do good but it is corrupted and ends in evil. Because men naturally in their corrupted thoughts to do not understand who they are by nature. This is why the world is steeped in corruption because men follow other men in this example motif. But every plan of man is an evidence of some very simple causes. At the bottom of all of mens good deeds is a desire to have power that does not inherently belong to them to give. The bible calls scheming plans and weaving trouble a desire from coveting. The love of money is the root of all evil. Because there is nothing that man can do apart from a struggle to over come that love... to love with all their hearts God over money and things. This is why God says that men naturally do not live in the fear of God. Because they have no thoughts of God ... there is only one other choice... to plan something destructive.       Remove Reply Quote Notify 3162  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 10, 2010, 12:46:09 PM If you look at Rom 9 there Paul is establishing that Israel had nothing to do with the choice of God. Paul prior to 9 had established that the whole world was under sin and he used the teacher- pupil relationship to show the state of the ot church had sunk to. He said the teachers did not practice what they taught. This was the ot system of works that focused on a the terms of the covenant ...they had to go through the rituals in order to obey the covenant. But in the new covenant God promise that He would give them a new heart and put the Spirit in them to cause them to obey. The new covenant .... old covenant comparative was in the apostles mind as He taught about Gods sovereign election of the gentile for the NT church in the book of Romans. Israel was the covenant community. But not all Israel was Israel.  Jacob i loved Esau i hated. Again even in the covenant community it was not because of the will of man but because of Gods sovereign choice. On the one hand Paul warned the NT church ...that being saved and unsaved in the covenant community that they could end up like the Jews... taking it for granted. But these warnings are for those who are not believing. Or they do not acknowledge these gospel truths to be the only ground for their assurance. But there are other things that get their attention. And this has brought them to leaving the church. Its clear apostasy that the apostle is warning about ... not burning the toast etc. They have either left the building or they are speaking in a way that they want to leave. It was the same way in the ot church. There were those who went through the rituals and were not converted. This is why you have all of these warnings by the prophets. There were people who were worshiping other idols. The ot church had a problem with actual idols they put up in their homes to appease through offerings and works. But there was the elect in the covenant community who did not continue in idol worship. This is why they experience the exiles. God disciplined the ot church because of the sins of idolatry by putting them in exile. There  was a lot of apostasy in the ot church. Look at Hebrews. They died in the dessert. Again this was clear apostasy. Because the book of Heb. opens up by showing that Gods church a family of believers. God as our Father... Christ as our brother... a clear reference to eternal security. A family identity is always the same. You will have to excuse me for rambling on STP....I  am going through some physical training... get in shape kind... its caught up with me today...your post have been such and encouragement to me tho....        Reply Quote Notify 3163  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 10, 2010, 11:34:13 AM Quote from: Willis on August 09, 2010, 12:05:44 PM Quote from: Retrobyter on August 07, 2010, 11:11:17 AM May I suggest that both of you introduce Scripture into your discussion? Good point. Seems the whole basis of this discussion hinges on defining the very terms "election" and "predestination." The text below has been posted on here before, but here I'll go again so we can get back to often ignored basics. [Some of this is borrowed from a source I can no longer remember, but I did add an analysis of the specific verses.] What is the Bible talking about when it uses the terms "election" and "predestination?" Although some Christians use these terms interchangeably, they are actually two different concepts. In summary, election means a person has been chosen for a special service. Predestination means God has predetermined that those who become Christians will have certain attributes, such as being "conformed to the likeness of His Son." Neither of these terms (election and predestination) have anything to do with salvation. When the Bible says a person is "elected," it means he has been chosen for something special. As you can see in the verses below, when a person is elected, he is not chosen for salvation, but is chosen to do some special service. The Bible talks about five groups that have been elected to do a specific service. They are: Nation of Israel Deut. 7:6,7 Rom. 9:4 Jesus 1 Pet. 2:4,6 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35 The church Mt. 24:22,24,31 Mk 13:20,22,27 The 144,000 Rev. 7:4 Rev. 17:14 Angels 1 Tim. 5:21 Election is talking about service, not salvation. In fact, it couldn’t be talking about salvation because Jesus didn’t need to be saved, nor did the angels. Besides, not all of the Israelites were true believers. Therefore, when the nation of Israel was elected, they obviously were not elected (or chosen) for salvation. God’s election is the same in the New Testament as it was in the Old Testament. Therefore, if the election of the Nation of Israel is talking about salvation, all of the present day Jews should be believers. This, of course, is not the case. Predestination simply means something has been predetermined to take place in the future. Although most Christians think of it in connection with the Bible, this concept is also found in the secular world. For example, anyone who becomes a policeman is predestined to have certain attributes (such as the authority to arrest people). Even Aldous Huxley uses the concept in his book Brave New World. As you can see, the word predestination does not need to have some mystical or divine implication. Just as man can predetermine certain things to take place in the future, so can God. So, what kind of things did God predestine to take place in the future? Did He predetermine to arbitrarily send people to Heaven and Hell? No. God has predetermined that those who become believers will obtain certain attributes. For example, God has predetermined everyone who becomes a believer will "be conformed to the likeness of his Son" (Romans 8:29, 30) and will be "holy and blameless in His sight" (Ephesians 1:4,5). Predestination talks about what will take place after a person becomes a Christian. eklektos ANGELS 1 Timothy 5 21I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the ELECT angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. JESUS 1 Peter 2 4As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but CHOSEN by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a CHOSEN and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." RUFUS Romans 16 13Greet Rufus, CHOSEN in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too. A LOCAL CHURCH (but could be a specific person named KYRIA) 2 John 1 1The elder, To the CHOSEN lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth ANOTHER LOCAL CHURCH 2 John 1 13The children of your CHOSEN sister send their greetings. eklegomai THE 12 DISCIPLES John 6 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not CHOSEN you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) FRUIT BEARERS John 15 16You did not CHOOSE me, but I CHOSE you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. THE PATRIARCHS Acts 13 17The God of the people of Israel CHOSE our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country... IDEAS 1 Corinthians 1 27But God CHOSE the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God CHOSE the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He CHOSE the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. THE POOR James 2 5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God CHOSEN those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong? ekloge PAUL Acts 9 15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my CHOSEN instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. JACOB Romans 9 10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in ELECTION might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." REMNANT OF ISRAEL Romans 11 1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant CHOSEN by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the ELECT did. ...   Willis i am familiar with your position on this from past post. First your argument is that your proving something exist out of a lesser reason than the greater one. Which is our problem in this argument with self determination. We are pointing back to the cause and the self determined argument is pointing at the process. It is purely functional on mans side and eliminates reasons for God to act as true to His attributes in this mysterious ordering of His creation. You are seeking to eliminate purposes for these visible realities and in this your bringing God down to what you reason He should do. Your ignoring the pre purpose of the more important decision (salvation)and arguing for a greater reason in Gods purpose for man in a lesser decision. This is not only convoluted but its backwards thinking.  If God only controls that actions of man in the calling then the calling has no connection to the saving. Otherwise God would not have one purpose in this world. That is to bring glory to Himself in everything. But you have a god who is divided. One who is in control and not in control. And He is not able to do the greater work in saving man from sin, hell, the devil and this world...but He is only able to provide a man an occupation and in this a purpose. In placing limits on God in this way you are making scripture fit your different interpretations of Gods purposes. All the verse on God saving man are done by the God who does not control things... all of the verses about our work is from a God who controls everything. Where is this original document with the fine print? This dichotomy does not exist in my bible. This is more like a schizophrenic god. Theres a indifferent god in the hospital but a personally interested one in the unemployment office...hehe     Remove Reply Quote Notify 3164  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 07, 2010, 10:07:09 AM Let me say this about assurance and the Devil. The devil has his teaching techniques. Every time there is a spiritual paradigm it is developed by a form of thinking. There is always a kind of spirit of the mind in which a person has a developed disposition that is a distinct view of the world. The world is what we think it is in the same way we are what we think. This is why the apostle says that we do not fight against teachings or against the ideas of philosophy of men , but we fight against spiritual paradigms. Because there are two distinct teachings in this world. There are the doctrines of demons and there is the doctrines of grace.  God has made us to prosper in a spiritual disposition as an evidence of the spirit in which we teach. These teachings are like a chord that should not be broken. I mean the clear doctrines of grace. It really doesnt matter if we press or force a change by some method that works as a method of change. It only matters that we grow into mature Christians with the proper spirit that God has made us to prosper. ;This is why when we speak it is a whole counsel speak. We sort of cast down imaginations that exalt themselves against God by thinking clearly about the ways of God. This is how we develop the proper spirit as a guide to a deeper understanding of the love of God. But if we allow ourselves to think in a way that we are not convinced of all of these doctrines or we do not apply it correctly to our encouragement ... then over time we develop a spirit about us. But we should always find that our rejoicing in Christ has this joy that is full.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3165  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 07, 2010, 09:29:13 AM Quote from: THOR on August 07, 2010, 08:35:13 AM God made man so he could choose (the garden!). It's what God did. You want to slip out of responsibility for your sin and that is what got Adam in trouble in the Garden. God made us responsible and only your reform theology keeps you from seeing this painfully obvious truth. It is not self righeous to respond to God's calling to Christ...it's what God expects when the Gospel is preached. To not respond, is sin. There is nothing preventing man from coming to Christ except himself and God seeks out the lost so how is it man saving himself? Thor No it is the opposite. Salvation is a work of God. It is receiving what we do not deserve. If you look at yourself you go from committing sin to being convinced by the act that you are a sinner from birth. That sin resides in you. This is logical. But if you stay there... that is sin too. STP is rite about our own ability to keep ourselves in the faith. But if we conclude that our sin is bigger than our assurance of salvation then we defeat ourselves at the point were we are supposed to have the courage to place all of our confidence in Christ. This is what i have been constantly pointing to ...that we need to think correctly so we dont present a defeatist doctrine. That is worm theology. If we conclude that there is no righteousness in us and we do not deserve to obtain salvation. Then we will not know until some time in the future. But that is not the biblical reasoning. The bible says that salvation is receiving eternal life. Every time eternal life is taught it is presented as starting when we are saved ..... not when we stand in the judgment. That is giving Satan more advantage than we are required to as helpless sheep. If we get a salvation in which we do not have confidence in what we got then our lack of confidence is sin because we do not appreciate the work that Christ did on our behalf. But salvation is not about us. That means its not focused on our lack of ability but on Christ working in us. This is why we must start with grace. Thor is always starting with the will. We must not think we can repent enough to please God. Rather we must look to God alone and by that conclude there is nothing good in us when we fail. We must trust that Gods grace will see us through to the end. But we live in grace as a general disposition of encouragement and praise and we view our failure from this new identity or we will never present a message other then worm theology.