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141	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Truth…	on: June 09, 2012, 11:48:52 AM
This thread was something i opposed with Gene. I think there is a good argument about making distinctions with people in what they can handle. Because i believe that anyone can be destroyed but for the grace of God. And its just like a doctor who thinks that if he tells his patient that he has a terminal illness that it will destroy his patient then he is wise to withhold that information. I think there are two kinds of people in this world. There are the type A personality in modern day language. These people look at all circumstances as a challenge. They think that weakness is not being able to face any circumstance. And so they have no boundaries as to what they demand in others. And they tend to get things done really fast but leave a lot of injured people in their paths. Let me say that i am not one of those people. I remember a long time ago struggling with depression and it was words that affected me. And i remember that i had to do this alone. So i know that people some of the time do not honor other people but they just lead without wisdom. And i used to curse the hard hardheartedness in people. Ive heard that other people have been treated harshly and they have the same reaction. They wish the other person would be confronted with the same trouble they have received. My standard of understanding is that i really do not trust people on a level after ive been involved with very respected reformed people. My problem is that just because someone knows the doctrines on a practical level does not mean they can treat everyone with a Shepherd kind of love. And so this is why i am an extreme grace guy because ive memorized the Psalms and i really have a view of things that its hard for me to see some of what Gene is talking about here and watch people who may be treated equally by a doctor and watch them be destroyed. And there is an evil wish about this. Some people do not really think they could end up having trouble that would make that person who is a type A struggle in anguish the rest of their lives. But i would be very careful about pushing this idea across the board because it my come back to bite you in the butt.
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1142  Forums / Current Events / Re: Entitlement and Gratitude. on: June 09, 2012, 10:33:55 AM Our society has in the communication of human behavior a kind of fable mentality. The truth is that if you repeat something over and over again then people will believe it to be so. This is why the Psalmist says that the godly are no more because he speaks deception with flattering lips. Or as the apostle warns Timothy the system of man spreads old wives tales. Old wives tales are taking things in themselves and giving them powers. Or its using words in order to gain power over the helpless. And this started to be predominant in our society through the propagation of evolution in our social sciences. It was an attempt to overthrow the authority of the patriarchal system through scientific research. And so all of the communication is geared toward learning behavior through scientific discoveries. And after 45 years of this constant way of thinking they have changed the way we look at reality. And this is why the bible must not only be studied but we must attempt to have a separate communication that stands over the godless communication. This scientific approach through animal studies is filled with lies. And the Psalmist looked at the unity of society as a view of life or a way of speaking. It was his view that a traitor was one who kept circulating these old wives tales without people being able to argue against them in an economy of life to be cut off from society. This is how dangerous the communication of evolution is. But let me also say that grace makes it favorable in this area of deception like a soft landing of a plane that has lost its ability to fly. And so even the elect are deceived but through reformation they find a soft landing. All boats rise when the water rises.   Reply Quote Notify

1143  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Steve is wrong... Church Discipline 6/1 on: June 09, 2012, 10:19:35 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on June 08, 2012, 03:04:41 AM mbG:  "This teaching is that unless you give up all your rites to excuse yourself from blaming yourself then you have not gotten to the place where you can be helped. But this is not the gospel message. The gospel message is to turn only to Christ to be accepted as an addict. So the plea is to not give up in turning to Christ. The gospel is not a message that gives you something for being desolate." K_k:  Actually the 12 steps help you to face the truth (and the Truth sets you free), provide encouragement to come to believe in God (however you may or may not understand Him at the time), and to trust Him with your life and will.  The rest is following His leading and growing in dependence on Him instead of on ourselves alone. Jesus Christ is the only true Healer, and when we turn to God in desperation and trusting dependence, Christ begins to draw us toward His salvation. stonelifter:  "Steve is never wrong. He thought he was once but he was mistaken!" K_k:  I've heard Steve say, on many broadcasts, that he is wrong 50 percent of the  time, or in other words about half the time, but he doesn't know which half (so you have to read the Bible to find out). Naw, i think he is right at least 51% of the time, so over the "long haul" he's more and more right.  But then, i've been wrong myself, a time or two... Christ is the light that we look to as facing the Truth. This is what the beginning is. Look in Galatians. He says after beginning with the Spirit are you now trying to obtain your goal through human effort? And then the apostle talks about our beginning as finding our first love. I do not see anything about the end being confronted by the law as the definition of truth. And that would not be to our advantage. To believe that the law saved us from drinking and after further confrontations of the law it will reduce us to a perfect state of rest. In fact love is the motivation when we look back. And there is only one love.God in Christ has declared Himself as love. We are not believing in a fairy tale. But we are seeking to remain connected to Christ. Our goal is not to end a behavior but its to be more like Christ. Because Christ as a God man has pleased the Father and so the Father has given Him us so that we actually belong to Christ. So that everything that Christ has we have been given. We are enjoying an eternal life that is not of this world.   Reply Quote Notify

1144  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Evolution vs Intelligent Design - In Search of the Black Cat on: June 09, 2012, 09:55:07 AM Let me give you a holistic understanding of racism. This is without the pragmatism of reading into events as they are in themselves. But racism is man declaring independence from God. Because it is basically immoral to commit the act of treason against a ruling king. And so we see within the heart of man that sin leads to death. Or sin is the act by which man defies God and sets his heart to murder anyone who does not follow him as a god. And this is how the bible connects sin to destruction. So we see in this universe that God has not only created this world but He does whatever pleases Him in sustaining this world. No matter how hard we look for the source of holding all of this together on the dna level the cellular level we will never be able to see that hand of God controlling life at the level of having authority even over the breath of man. And so it is a blessed day when we acknowledge that God has an absolute rite to give life as He has to take life. Because we are restless until we have found all of our happiness in God. And we are not happy until we are totally dependent on God for every thing, even the quality of our lives. Man in his evil nature curses his neighbor. Because in his heart he hates God and will not let this God rule over him. Man takes upon himself as a god to determine who will live and who will die. This is why a lawless man curses Gods curses. Because that is the same thing as shaking his fist in Gods face. But the righteous seek Gods face, they long for Gods favor. This is what is so neat about grace. Its making the world supernatural by agreeing with all of Gods law. Its actually talking scripture, breathing in scripture, bleeding scripture and declaring things to exist by scripture.  Its giving Gods law the authority to curse the curses of other gods. This is the reasoning of scripture because man will accept part of Gods revelation but that same man will not reject what is wrong.(in a doctrinal sense) Because a man cannot be neutral in how he lives in this world. There is only one thing we love. There is only one thing we seek. We are sold out to find all of our happiness in God. We are people who inscripturate reality. Because to move away from God is to avoid His word. It is to allow ourselves to be touched by the unclean thing. But we are promised that we will dwell in this blessed state if we apply our faith and believe that what God has said is the final word. Who God has cursed is the final word that ends all treason. Reply Quote Notify

1145  Forums / Current Events / Re: Entitlement and Gratitude. on: June 08, 2012, 10:07:38 AM Quote from: Gouda on June 08, 2012, 01:37:47 AM MBG, I agree with you for the most part. Not sure I understood all the nuances, but I do think we need to defend the rights of others. And Jenni wasn't complaining--I think you were talking about what I wrote. And yes, it kind of comes from the whole mindset in this nation (this earth) that it's a dog-eat-dog world out there, and we have to fight (dirty, if necessary) to get what we need or want because our rulers cannot be trusted to do what is right. I do understand the fears of growing older, I think, but really my mom has been like this her whole life.  She was very poor most of her life, and I've seen her lie, cheat, and steal to get what she needed.  I was always ashamed of those things growing up, but now I don't blame her one bit--desperation would do that to almost any of us. It's just that now she's relatively well off--house paid for, husband left her a surprising amount of money that should last the rest of her life, and he was a retired military officer, so her medical needs are well-covered for life. She knows my sister and I will take care of her, if needed.  And yet, she still causes loud, dramatic scenes everywhere to get discounts and charity that, I think, really belong to someone else. But, yes, I wouldn't call her someone who feels entitled--she was just trained by tough circumstances to scrap for everything she can get. I understand her better, I still love her--but I think people like her are the reason some people become cynical about those who claim to be in need. Thanks Gouda, I wasnt trying to attack anyone i was just trying to apply the biblical structure in relation to how we should think about entitlement and gratitude. And i think the bible says that we are entitled to all that Christ has earned. Because we are in Christ and so we inherit the whole earth. The way we do this is through a righteous generation. So our goals are much higher than just our children but we really want to impact the whole earth. How do we do this? I mean we only have a very small influence in our circumstances. Well the bible says that we can pray universal prayers. And our prayers go beyond this earth to the throne of God. But this is where we struggle because its not really our being thankful for what we have as an attitude that we do not believe we are entitled to it but its trying to rise up to a confidence where we break through our own anger and pain , kind of like going before God in prayer and describing our anxiety so that we are drawn out of ourselves and the inward sorrow comes out of us in a very transparent way. Like a child going to his father and pouring out his pain to him.And then we determine to break through our expectations of God, this is when we are led to appeal to the Lord Most High. I am thinking of a specific Psalm of ascending as i have described here. I think this experience becomes more real to us as we begin to ask God for big things and then our faith is increased and the stakes go up. And so each time we become more aware of when we have broken through and been converted to a new confidence and upon this we i believe we get a face to face appeal when we address our Lord as the Most High. Its kind of like breaking into the office of the President while he is at his desk and presenting our appeal to him. But our Lord is most pleased when we try to advance in this life as we are persistent with Him. This is why we learn that we must have the world or we will not let Him go. Reply Quote Notify

1146  Forums / Current Events / Re: Entitlement and Gratitude. on: June 07, 2012, 03:22:48 PM cont Jenni this is a very thought provoking thread.. I appreciate your time to read.One thing i guess its hard for young people to think about the elderly is that as you get older you lose resistance to disease and threats. So old people begin to face things as if they are life and death. And i understand your complaining because i was just like that too. But the elderly are not as safe as they used to be a few yrs back. They are facing because of the high cost of meds.. not all elderly .. there are rich who dont worry but there are situations where their meds literally keep them alive. So in a sense we begin life in a child like understanding and we end life with the strength of a child. And so God must be the one who rites the wrongs or we will think that some people do not have an entitlement mentality. Because all men are prejudiced about their safety and their habits and beliefs as the absolute truth. There is no such thing as a person who can claim that he was not helped by someone else. We live in a fallen world. But i think people are not really defined in this pragmatic way but there are dumb people and very smart people. And this i think is what happens in the world where success is measured by education and who is at the top. And ive been around very intelligent people who are so far along in their field of expertise that other people feel a sense of entitlement not only from the benefits but how they are put down so they are at their level.And throughout my life more and more as the world gets turned upside down this is a big problem. Thats why God judges nations.     Reply Quote Notify

1147  Forums / Current Events / Re: Entitlement and Gratitude. on: June 07, 2012, 03:07:37 PM I think we need to be persistent in defending the rites of others. And i always say that one of the reasons that people complain is because there are no leaders in this world to set in order those things that protect the rites of others. And in my opinion it is easier to the prosecutor than the defense attorney. Especially in this day and age when there is so many reasons to complain. But we really are not controlled by other people so no matter what they think about their particular circumstances its in our best interest to defend those who cannot defend themselves. We have a greater purpose in this world than to be settled in our own security. We not only have a responsibility to take care of our kids but we have a responsibility to provide a future for them. This is the way leaders lead. They express their griefs but at the same time they accept others rites to their opinions. I do not believe we can point something out about entitlement without our thinking we are entitled to our opinion to complain about what others may think they are entitled to . In the end it doesnt matter the only thing that matters is that we have said what needs to be said in a visionary way and we know we have honored God. Im not talking about a direct attack on someone in a counseling way. Im talking about presenting grace as the answer. This is why we have free speech because we do not half to be the president to complain about the presidents actions. We have a rite to our opinion. And really its funny because the world is not a place were God just honors those who do the rite thing. But God places people in high positions because they are the best at arguing their positions. And you got to understand that leaders get to those positions of entitlement and they create wars between the peasants because they are not leading. Most people today are like baby sitters between two doctrinal factions. lol And if you want to compare in a way where the responsible people should be honored then why not have military leaders sit in the seats of congress? LOL And so in every area of this earth we have good and bad. As long as we are on this earth that is gonna be our reality. And its not the person who lets people and circumstances determine how they are gonna live and feel but its the people who rise above the culture and they refuse to fall into the pattern of lukewarmness and passive compliance that we rise to lead others. Its the people who have gain wisdom and know where the danger is and are able to warn people to avoid these things. And so our identity in Christ keeps us from having to live our lives under the dictates of other people and we can rise above our circumstances so that we will experience being happy for only one reason. Reply Quote Notify

1148  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What price did God actually pay in giving up his son Jesus, for our sins? on: June 07, 2012, 01:34:30 PM Quote from: scottrb5s4 on June 07, 2012, 01:30:26 AM Yep, I'm still reading. . . but I think maybe, just maybe, things got a little off-topic, ya think? The guys in my Bible study group discussed the actual topic(What price did God pay in giving up his son for our sins?) Tuesday night, and what we came up with was that for God to pay a price, is like saying Bill Gates has to pay a price when he buys something(as small as dinner, or as large as a house) its not really going to be a sacrifice for him.  God certainly has all of the power, so the price was what we could not pay(to go to Heaven), but He chose to pay it for us(Christians. ) So, what we were unable to do for ourselves, He chose to do for us, so that we could have eternal life with Him, and that is His gift to us.  For us,  that is priceless, and was unobtainable, until He gave us the option of choosing to follow Him through his son Jesus.  In other words, we could not have been good enough ourselves, even one sin deserves eternity in Hell. Now, of course Jesus(also God) did pay that price(suffering, dying and being separated from God) as he took on our sins.  I'm not skipping over that, but in all of my years being in baptist churches, I have always heard people really harp on the fact that "God gave up his only son, for our sins," and all I really wanted to know was "did he really give him up, as in, to not get him back, ever?," like the people I have heard made it seem.  I would say no, that's not what John 3:16(or any other verses like that) are saying, they are talking about the gift that God is offering to us. Yes, I do understand that God had to see his son go through taking on our sin, but He knew the end result(resurrection and back with Him in Heaven shortly), so in my mind, that was a sacrifice, but I don't see it as God giving up a relationship forever, not that anyone ever said that, they just implied it, in my opinion. Maybe I have been misunderstanding their statements all these years, and I intend to ask the next person I hear say it, what they mean by it("God gave up his only son for us. ") Thor, I found your mention of Jesus' quote of Psalm 22:1(meaning, he was referring to the whole chapter) very interesting.  I have never heard that before, but in reading Ps. 22, it makes sense, the whole chapter definitely went along with his current situation at the time.  I appreciate the insight there, and will try and remember that about the ancient Jews in the future. This price was beyond our ability to understand because it involves the entire number of thoughts that God has about His redeeming the whole creation and mankind. You need to understand that God decreed sin to enter but He also through the plan of redemption had the reordering of all things for our good and for His glory. So we are talking about Gods standard of holiness that shows in His sending men to suffer for all eternity. Now i think of that and it makes me absolutely dumbfounded. So when we are talking about price that payment is only satisfied in Gods economy. And it not only includes Christ death but it includes all that Christ has done in responding justly to every thing that was ordained in redeeming and bringing complete justice because He demands complete payment. And this is why if you have ever heard someone speak the curses of God it is eye opening. And it sort of takes away the illusion that the universe is one of Gods principle. But it is relational. And so some people think that redemption is just a price paid for unrelated sin not to every area of the universe and all the physical, neutral things that are made rite. I mean why did God not destroy the first man after he rebelled? As a matter of principle and as a matter of protecting the human race that would be the best thing to do. But God was setting up the soil in which He would force the world to a world in how they related to His Son. And this is why that decision was kind of like a slow death or having a world that was depraved and having to endure a slow pain of destruction. But God designed the remedy to involve these absolute statements about condemning sinners in this process of enduring this awful world. God was so concerned that we not be burden with the real state of this world so that we could enjoy the effects of the new life that he showed that value of redemption by the curses of the law. God did not allow us to go to the depths of depravity because He put a boundary by reordering every thing according to His redemption. And the price is to constrain sinners and give us confidence by these curses going out into all eternity as His condescending value of us.   Reply Quote Notify

1149  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Churches Full-Amening This on: June 07, 2012, 01:20:57 PM These practical issues have many different ways in the nt of approaching the remedy. A lot of people narrow down the way to deal with problems in what Jesus said on the sermon on the mount. Its kind of like taking something that Jesus was pointing out that was taken from other laws and making it applicable without understanding the whole intent of the law, the other laws that surround the laws Jesus was confronting the Pharisees about. And you see many different ways that were used in applying these principles in certain situations. So this is why i do not try to say which way is the rite way in an individual situation because this application always is within the necessary frame work of providing positive enforcement with the goal to heal and make better. So to make a dogmatic statement about a counsel situation is wrong in my opinion. And a lot of people have this lazy view of how to get along with all of the problems that are mixed in as more people connect to one another. And we see the apostles attitude about this by saying that some preach as if grace was like a thorn , they preach it with rivalry, that being there is always some kind of accusation in the counsel that does not represent the accuracy of grace. But he apostle was not just telling people what to do but he was setting the example for the poor and helpless by making it easier for them to be less burdened. And there was many ways in scripture to deal with individual situations. THis is why i believe that doctrine is a matter of defending because it does not make absolute statements about each individual situation. And so this is why grace is set apart from any other approach in this world. Because grace finds the remedy in a way that is not destructive.      Reply Quote Notify

1150  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual Personality Disorder on: June 07, 2012, 11:58:36 AM The apostle says that evil self righteous people destroy your confidence in the free gospel. Its compared to a man who is put in a small space and he is forced to feel helpless and anxious. Because false teachers do not understand the distinction between humanity and deity. And so they do not teach a free flow of gospel communication in the soul by understanding ourselves as living individuals before God. Now listen to me. Just because i connect a psychological identity with a certain behavior does not mean that God intended to give an evil word to us that will make us fall into a sense of being entrapped. God created the communication of man and said it was all good. So the explanation of truth is a prophecy that either frees a man or it puts the man in a trap. And this is why in Gods present He accepts all of the different physiological definitions and it is said that in Him that He transcends human language so that there is not standard of our confidence as a communication in our enjoying Gods grace. Its not a sin to brag about God by what He gifts us with. Its not a sin to oppose men on the basis of their miss interpretation of grace. Now listen to me, God has given us a way through the use of word and Spirit to redefine our psychological tendencies in our visions of the imagination to be all those things as God has determined in His perfect creation of us. And so at one point we could be called narcissistic in our approach to God, we could be called a mego maniac in our enjoyment of God describing who we are in our going to him.  All of these human tendencies are not bad in themselves but they are an odd expression of Gods perfect creation. And this is what we are taught about our being human and experiencing salvation. Because we are not any kind of profile but we are what God has determined. This whole exercise of the personality is in this word of salvation. Now when a man is recreated and experiences renewal then that man has a new way of looking at every word. Because the word has become flesh in our new nature or desires. But we must grow in understanding this perfect communication that leads us to the a level path that goes to an open field. We now understand how the word of salvation is the very core of our psychological confidence in this world. You see God has made our way very simple so that we can oppose the captivity of the disobedient works psychological profile. He has given us this very complex structure of renewal but has placed within the expression of this understanding which is His wisdom that has thoughts that are too many for us to comprehend. But He has made it simple that we long for the new word of salvation and we are being renewed both our inner man and the circumstances that we are confronted with. Now this word of salvation is His inviting us to be transparent before Him. Not to be detracted by our psychological profile as if it was something that was preventing us from approaching God but to go to God as a narcissistic sinner, to go to God as a meglo maniac, to approach God as a depressed person. Because God is leading us to the word of salvation that is spoken to us in the trial as we focus on it and long for it more than gold. Now listen to me, in Gods kingdom there are things that are too wonderful for us to imagine. So that in a sense before Him we act as a king over all the earth. But its not our imagination but its His word of salvation that teaches us to take captive every thought. And yet we are creators of this world in the future that is too wonderful , that is miss understood by man , that is miss applied by teachers, that hits the core of hatred of the world. This word of salvation becomes to us more valuable in our longing for it than our own skin. And in this we begin to be healed of our human frailties.        Remove Reply Quote Notify

1151  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reason to question your salvation because of sin? on: June 07, 2012, 11:16:30 AM cont... The gospel message is a message that has built into it a reality in which it brings people to rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. And so we can lose this simple prescribed way and bring in all kinds of excuses, making the minor things the major things, focusing on things that are not fundamental to how we are to approach teaching and the purpose of doctrine in the rite way we apply it. And so all of these areas of gospel wholeness are like mixing the witches brew. The gospel message is not necessarily an intellectual understanding of its different parts but its a way of life in which it dwells in us like a deep spring. And we learn to tap into the depths of that spring of life when we know the gospel message and we have wisdom to apply it. So it really is not learned in a purely secular system of man but its applied personally and then when we experience it as a healing message we apply it to other people. This is what God calls relational reality. There is only one way to apply the gospel message. The system of doctrine is only healthy when one doctrine over laps another. But at some point the apostle tells us that we need to go on from the milk to the meat. So that we go quicker from the word to the Person. The words of the gospel are life. And so life is a real relationship to the Author of life. We are responsible to obey the gospel. Paul says we have an obligation. But it is not to the law itself but the Spirit of the law. We are obligated to grow up like adults and be free to love others by not being tied down to this world. Thats why the apostle says to owe no man anything. The point is that we are to use our resources for others. But this cannot happen if we are always having the illusion that the word itself will heal us. We have an obligation to make the gospel a part of us. That is a matter of obedience. The gospel is Gods kingdom advanced throughout the world that brings men before God in this heavenly worship! It provides us not with the words but the healing so that we worship in a free experience going on to maturity to the Person Himself. And so if we are not experiencing the Person then we have not properly nor taken care of applying the gospel in the wise way . Reply Quote Notify

1152  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reason to question your salvation because of sin? on: June 07, 2012, 10:51:50 AM There are two kinds of repentance. One is a repentance unto salvation. This repentance is like being vexed over sin. Its being struck to the heart as it says in Acts. This repentance is for people who have not understood that they are sinners. They honestly think that they are good and will tell people that they do not believe that are born sinners. You can ask simple questions to them and it will be obvious they do not understand salvation. Then there is a christian repentance. A christian will naturally believe that he is a sinner. But this repentance is not a one time change in the way a person thinks. This repentance is an ongoing state of a believer throughout that persons life. In other words this is an acknowledging that sin dwells in us. So that self knowledge is the knowledge that we approach God as sinners. Now a lot of people are mis informed about christian repentance. They make it a teaching that the law of God stands in between a christian and God. And so they believe that christian repentance is required to reestablish the relationship that has been severed by breaking Gods law. So they make repentance necessary for a believer that is like an unbeliever who confesses that he does not believe that he is a sinner to be like that unbeliever in breaking Gods law. Now this is very dangerous. The Psalmist calls these people dogs who eat up the scraps from the garbage. Because they make people believe that God accepts them only on the basis of their obedience and not on the basis of His grace. Its interesting because God provides us as believers with more arguments about His love for us than how He accepts us if we respond correctly. The reason that God does this is because He has done all the work so that its like someone who offers to us a vacation in their home. If we complain about the room that they have provided then we are making a statement about who they are. So God in doing the work of salvation has gifted us with saving grace. This grace is like His gift that provides all that is necessary to enjoy the acceptance of God on the basis of Gods name. So when we teach something about this grace that makes God look like a mean task master, or we make God look weak and ineffective then we actually show that God is not worthy of to be trusted. And this is why the apostle told the Pharisees that they made their converts twice the sons of hell.     Reply Quote Notify

1153  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Evolution vs Intelligent Design - In Search of the Black Cat on: June 07, 2012, 10:30:29 AM Bill ive been in Revelation memorizing the book and am fascinated about how the judgement upon nature is described. I think God is in control of the disasters of nature that are taking place. Its the same principle of reaping the consequences of fornication in spreading viruses. Like you have been saying there is a balance in nature and if that balance is tampered with then there is a large number of people that suffer. But there is a reference to some of the water having dangerous chemicals that kill a large part of mankind. Im just wondering how much this increase in disease and death is connected to the water we drink. Reply Quote Notify

1154  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reason to question your salvation because of sin? on: June 06, 2012, 04:52:49 PM I do not believe that our relationship to the Father is outside of the realm of grace. And so we are talking about real substitution rather than a give and take relationship. Our sins cannot be marked. This is what is so hard for us to understand because we naturally feel guilty, sorrowful, and contrite. But these conditions have been taken care of at one time in a complete substitute. Now we confuse the biblical language of substitution with a general statement about sin and repayment that is common to all men. I think the reason we do this is because we like to think in terms of the promises and the commands. And since the apostle seems to divide these letters into this outline we think automatically that if not dividing the commands from the promises that these two are equal or in some instances that prevent us from making absolute statements about the full pardon we receive in certain situations in our christian life. But the truth is that these absolute statements of Gods way as a Father of dealing with us are really real and final. The point is that the scripture always gives us the general condition of the world and how God is actively opposed to those conditions. But we are really no longer of this world but we have been bought with a price. And a lot of people will say that this is an exhortation to act according to the price He paid. But the principle of acting is a covenant principle. We did not seek after God but He extended His acceptance to us because He loved us while we were sinners. So that His love is a promise not just to extend grace to us through salvation but to keep us and provide for us all that we need in this life. So the price He paid was planned from before the world was created to buy some people from the slave market of sin. It is said that the Lamb purchased us to be a kingdom of priest to serve our God and we will reign with Him on the earth. We are citizens (king and priest) of a new heaven and earth. But who needs a priest on the other side? So he is saying that this is our present position. And so He proves Himself faithful by purchasing a people for Himself to reign with Him from before the foundation of the world. So we are already seen in Him as reigning with Him. This means that we are kings and priest rite now. We are given this identy upon our being purchased or receiving our salvation. This is the picture of those who are over comers.       Reply Quote Notify

1155	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Covenant Avenging Sword: John Arrowsmith	on: June 06, 2012, 03:27:56 PM
"But will walk contrary unto me" 10.. The plea is ,that men cannot, but the truth is they will not do otherwise, being enemies in their minds, Col. 1 21. The way of the impenitence is a way of contrariety to God, whose holy law the rebel casts behind his back. To Jesus Christ, they being sworn enemies to his Prophetical cross, that mind earthly things, to His Kingly Throne, that will not have him to reign over them. As also to the Holy Ghost , whom such courses do not only greive, but vex and not resist only, but quench. "Then will I also walk contrary unto you", that is war against you with my judgements, as you have fought against me by your sins.Tis the nature of the contraries so to does heat and cold, moisture and drought expel each other. If men will needs be driving God out of their thoughts, speeches, lives, no wonder if God expel them out of their health, estates, peace. Nothing more just then such kind of retaliations which the Scripture abounds with, see it proportioning jealous to jealous, and provocation to provocation,  Deut. 32 21 "They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God, they have provoked me to anger with their vanities, and I will remove them to jealousy with those that are not a people, I will provoke them to anger with a foolish Nation." Number to number, 1 Sam 65 11 12, Ye are they that furnish the drink offering to that number, therefore will i number you to the sword. Choice to choice 66 3 4 They have chosen their own ways , I will also choose their delusions. Devise to devise ...Mic 2 1 ,3 Wo to them that devise iniquity, therefore thus saith the Lord, behold , against this family do I devise an evil. Frowardness to frowardness, 1 sam 18 21 With the pure thou shalt show thy self pure, and with the froward thou wilt show thy self froward, just as contrary here to contrary. This language is all very much tied into their worship book. The wicked man is born in sin and he seeks to develop his principles as if he is god. The reason that he thinks this way is because he will not have God in all his thoughts. And so its not that he is able to redeem himself by handing over a new leaf but he belongs to the wrong team so to speak. He is fighting in the wrong army. He is a proud man who is his own god. He actually curses the poor and the needy. All of this is not necessarily a rational process but its because he has a relationship where he is at odds with God. So this wicked man is a self made man who has risen in life on the backs of others with relatively no pain , and sees not danger that he has avoided God. And this pathway that he has taken is like a slippery slope.Hes trapped like it says in the description of an unwise man in proverbs. The more he advances the more he is sliding into his own traps that have gotten him to where he is a self made man. Where as the righteous are caught in this but their said to be disciplined by God in preparing these wicked men for their time when the righteous will judge them. And in fact there are Psalms that we practice now for that time. So we will get a position as we look upon the Lamb and become proficient in His eternal program.  This is how God deals with an unbeliever. God repays him seven times for his foolishness. And so you have these unbelievers who are part of Gods chosen nation who are judged just like the nations who do not have the oracles of God.   mbG      Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What price did God actually pay in giving up his son Jesus, for our sins? on: June 06, 2012, 02:43:01 PM The leading component in Pauls argument about the resurrection is to connect our lives on this earth with our future life. And so this doctrine of salvation has always been about renewal here of our spirit , which is our confession on the day we die , and our sense of justice when all things will be made right. But our bodies though they are decaying are part of the rewards we will receive when we get our white robes. There was a gnostic heresy going around in the Corinthian church that there would be no bodily resurrection. And so all of this teaching effected other doctrines. And this heresy reduced the Corinthians to kind of church within a church. If the spirit is all good and the body is all evil then it doesnt matter what we do on this earth in eating and drinking. Nor would it matter how we lived in the system of justice. The whole point of our confidence is that Christ was raised bodily as the first fruits , who ascended to heaven not as higher spirit but as a perfect Man , for the purpose of representing us before the throne of God. As so Christ is called the Lamb of God who purchased us with His own blood. So this justice both heavenly and earthly has been satisfied. And so when we are brought into Gods family our economy of protection is through Christ who is our high priest as the Lamb of God. Since His blood which is essential in the life of the body is the reason that He stands as the Lord over all things in heaven then we can be sure that He will balance the scales in His way either in this life or in the last judgement. And the apostle also addressed these Corinthians about going to the world to provide protection and financial support in the church. These matters of judgement as I have been saying are given to Christ who promises to meet all of our needs and to defend us. So the Christian context of judgement has its confidence that vengeance is in the hands of God. And so the apostle says we are not disembodied spirits who rise to a level of sainthood upon entering heaven but we are in Christ who is the final judge of all these disputes. The apostle even says "why are you taking each other to court? Dont you know that God has given you the ability to judge these matters within the context of the christian community? Why are you going to the world to get the success you need when you will stand with Christ and judge angels? Let me say that this is a great motivation to understand the whole context of our being renewed both body and spirit. Because we understand that our christian experience is in the context of a holistic promise of healing in how we process our offenses and His judgement. Because we are not gnostic s who deny the reality that God has promised to protect us in His covenant promises. Your problem is that you reduce all of this to the earthly system because you do not understand you identity in Christ. This is why it is so important to believe in a bodily resurrection because all the pain and suffering that we go through on this earth will not only be wiped away but God will rite the wrongs. So that our real hope as physical beings is tied into looking to this Lamb of God who is our real representative as a God man in heaven who listens to our complaints and all of these things will culminate in our union with Him at the great judgement as those who will stand and judge those abusers. And so we see why it is so faithless to give the world that much power in the christian economy of things.          Reply Quote Notify 1157  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Gospel message(s) on: June 06, 2012, 10:08:20 AM Our view of the gospel is how we understand all the other details of doctrine. If we get the gospel wrong then it will infect all of the other teaching. So the gospel is the only message that is easily understood in its purity so that it measures all of life. The gospel cannot be divided. We cannot say that its in Gods power and our power. The gospel is the power of God. The apostle after going through the commands says that all he did he did through the grace of God or through the power of God. This is why the gospel is a promise of God to sinners. Because the gospel is a gift of God given by grace because of Gods great love. So the gospel is a covenant of grace promised to us by God on the basis of His faithfulness, long suffering, kindness and mercy. The gospel cannot be mixed with the command. Whenever we are commanded to do something we always conclude that we are guilt of a violation of meeting the standard of the duty. Because the command is not the gospel. In the gospel all that we do is a gift that gives us the ability to enjoy God by doing it for His honor. How can you fail if Gods love for you is the cause and goal of your purpose in life? Who would want to respond to the command like they respond to the gospel? If we mix the gospel with the command we will prolong our own sorrow. Because grace cannot be mixed with the law. If we think that we have the ability to be accepted by our sincere response to the command then its the same thing as saying that we can get acceptance by our response to the command. But these responses cannot be mixed up. Our obligation of acknowledging that we have not met the demands of the law is our natural understanding of our new life. Our response is not a surprise that we happen to experience sorrow differently each time we acknowledge that we do not meet the obligations of the law. But our response is that if we thought that we could gain acceptance through being genuine in our acknowledging that we do not keep the law it would be acting as if it was not already true of us. And this is why the gospel cannot fail because we look to grace alone apart from the law. The law is simple to look at because we do not have a standard by which we can be genuine. But when we look to grace there is no boundaries as to the enjoyment we receive by its fruits.      Reply Quote Notify 1158  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Steve is wrong... Church Discipline 6/1 on: June 06, 2012, 08:59:05 AM This teaching is that unless you give up all your rites to excuse yourself from blaming yourself then you have not gotten to the place where you can be helped. But this is not the gospel message. The gospel message is to turn only to Christ to be accepted as an addict. So the plea is to not give up in turning to Christ. The gospel is not a message that gives you something for being desolate. The point of the gospel is that it assumes you are in a condition of hopelessness not because you cant deal with a certain addiction but because you are a sinner who was born in a hopeless condition. The gospel works every time it is tried. But this other promise only gives you a hope of serenity. In other words you learn to accept the things you cannot change and the wisdom to know that difference. And so your living with the motto that says there are some things that will always control you and you just accept that they are never gonna change in how they are related to you. This is the ultimate focus of pragmatism. This is what the scripture calls being double minded. The gospel is not a message of balance but its the medicine that heals us of all diseases. When we make it our lifes ambition to focus on the gospel and apply it to our sorrows and our sin then we begin to be healed both in our spirit and in our bodies. The gospel is not a message that orders our lives so that we think differently depending upon what activity we are doing in our schedule but we focus on the gospel as we are doing our schedule. In other words the gospel is who we know we are by what we think at all times. The gospel saves us from ourselves by giving us a personal connection to the image of Christ. We are not trying to please Christ by what we do but we are changing our minds about who Christ is and more and more beginning to understand our purpose in this world. One is a principled view of life but gospel life is a personal view.  Reply Quote Notify 1159  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What price did God actually pay in giving up his son Jesus, for our sins? on: June 05, 2012, 01:58:52 PM I dont think you can understand righteous indignation and hatred if you do not see that God turned His back on that object who became sin for us.  God must hate evil because evil is abusive. And if it is abusive one person can destroy another person in many ways. It would be like God loving His Son as the object of sin as if God would put His arms around Hitler and say I love you. I mean how could God defend those who were the victims of the destruction of their posterity and their lives if He were to embrace one at the expense of another? Some people think that Gods love on the cross is kind of like the same love as the woman who is connected to her husband and experiences physical abuse. In other words the love is forced by the husband out of her and she believes that the love is real. And this really is important because God purposely did not make salvation or sanctification through the process of confrontation. Because this one confrontation on the cross was the culmination of the success that would follow through being weak. And so if God had not turned away from His Son then there is no real substitute that gives a person hope that his particular sin is too great for God to pardon. God had to turn away or that love would have been supportive of the abusive confrontation.  Reply Quote Notify 1160  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What price did God actually pay in giving up his son Jesus, for our sins? on: June 05, 2012, 11:41:12 AM Youve got to understand that the Psalms describes the righteous man who acts according to Gods word. And this description is in contrast to the fool who devises his own scemes. So the value of the man and his being righteous is the value of the success of Gods word. But there is no man on earth that can claim this righteousness in himself. Only one Man is intrinsically righteous. So through each psalm its depicting the only real Man but in an advocacy role. So the psalms teach that God who covenanted with Israel through a covenant of love actually condescends to them so that they are successful by the image of the only real Man. But they do not teach that our image is mixed with His image but they show a real experience of the son of Adam. So we have a pure way of success that is taught through imaging this Man who relates to us in perfect renewal. And at the same time we have a direct contrast of this righteous man to the man of sin. What we are saying here is that the language of the man in sin who looks on the image of Christ is a real language of the that self. Its not a contrived language. Because God gives us the true image of the man of sin. And in understanding this language we deny any other language that describes the man of sin. God actually describes the man of sin as he is so that in knowing himself there is no way that that man can avoid Christ image. At the same time this heart language of man is met with all the redemptive language of the most personal response of that images Christ . And so we have the man who takes the place of the man of Adam. There is no pragmatism . Its person to person language.  Reply Quote Notify 1161  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Evolution vs Intelligent Design - In Search of the Black Cat on: June 05, 2012, 05:41:44 AM Jenni whenever i am discussing origins with someone i always start with presuppositions that cannot be compromised. Because i believe that its impossible for us to prove origins based upon an understanding and knowledge of the beginning. Because we are not God. And so i argue that if you believe in evolution then as a fact then its also required that you prove that God does not exist. Because both of those suppositions cannot be true in the same argument. And ive never met a person who can prove that God does not exist. The only thing that can say to me is for me to prove that God exist. But if they cant prove that God does not exist then they cant be sure that evolution is real. And then we begin to compare their suppositions on both sides of the argument. I do not believe this is a foolish way to argue because I believe the bible takes this angle as the basis of our faith. The bible does not set out to prove that God exist but it presupposes that God exist. Why does it presuppose? Because at any point in man gaining knowledge of origins it would still be futile to for man to conclude that he can be in a position to know for sure based upon all the facts that God does or doesnt exist and that evolution is a true based upon what the man knows. And so in a sense humility is our acknowledging that we cannot know God by being confident in our own understanding and knowledge. And this is why God sort of presents a contrast between an adult and a child in light of what true wisdom looks like. We can say that in Gods way of knowledge that a child could possibly be more wise that the most learned man. What is the basis of our believing that a child could be wiser then a man of great knowledge? Because a child accept God without the need to question the facts based upon what that child knows.And so the bible uses this argument to magnify the contrast between what man is capable of and what God truly is. And this has more of a weight when we understand that knowledge is not just book knowledge but it actually is like a scale that measures out rewards and punishment. In other words knowledge is not neutral. But it either rewards us or condemns us. So in a sense you could say that at some point our knowledge of something could be used against us to be shown that we trusted in something that had little worth. And so belief and how we understand truth really is a matter of life and death. And this is why God gives the child example because the child not only trust that what God says is true but the child in his being naive is as the man who understands that he knows nothing in comparison to God. And thus avoids the pride that could condemn him. This is why im prepared to say that if anyone can prove to me that God did not speak everything into existence with its full effects then both arguments of day- age and 6 days cannot be both true ..then we can start at this presupposition of what is Gods word. But i wouldnt go as far as to say that day- age condemns that person. It only effects the logical confidence of the goodness of God by His sovereign declaration.     Reply Quote Notify 1162  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What price did God actually pay in giving up his son Jesus, for our sins? on: June 04, 2012, 07:45:49 PM Quote from: scottrb5s4 on June 04, 2012, 07:26:02 PM I'm going to look into this tonight, and post a synopsis of what I find out. Any scripture starting places I should go, beyond the obvious gospel accounts? I would read the gospel of John. Its probably gonna be tailored toward what people need to hear about Christ in this culture. Reply Quote Notify 1163  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What price did God actually pay in giving up his son Jesus, for our sins? on: June 04, 2012, 07:19:53 PM Scott i do not know the full extent that Jesus suffered for us but I believe that Jesus suffered as a person who was cursed. And in the Psalms the worse person who is cursed is a traitor. But because of our sin and corruption we are also traitors. The whole human race has would have taken this God Man who acted in every way as the most honorable man and who was so good that He surpassed the judgement of men. They not only crucified Him from the most hypocritical hatred but they could not comprehend that goodness so it was the worse kind of being taken for granted as well. I think they were extremely jealous that He surpassed them and they took it out on Him as cowards. And yet God had to treat Him as a cursed criminal. He became a curse for us. So He died as a person who had done a capital offense. And not only did He die as a man hated by men and punished in the worse way but He was an eternal sacrifice. So He had to be punished with an eternal retribution. So He had to die in a way in which the punishment had to glorify God. God had to be satisfied with the sacrifice. This is why I believe that Christ voluntarily gave up His life because He was in perfect compliance with the Fathers will. What does it mean for the glory of God to be hanging on that cross? Christ came to this earth from the glory of being God who was exalted above everything. And so Christ was the eternal ruler of the earth. And this glory included His eternal counsel in which He authored the plans for all people in the whole history of the earth. He did this in this eternal counsel and it was carried out as a display of all of His attributes so that the whole earth and all of creation would give Him continual praise. But before He entered time as a man this glory was seen in His rule over the earth through His chosen nation. And so it was displayed in Him delivering His people from Egypt and all of the miracles that follow in Him bringing them to the promise land. Christ was the Lord of glory that delivered Israel in the reign of David. Now this is interesting because there has never nor ever will be a nation in which this glory was displayed in Davids rule over the nations. It is said in the ot that this Lord of glory would come in these battles to rescue the king and destroy and subdue the nations. Can you imagine being robed in the royal robes of Christ and having Him as your Lamb who would take vengeance for you? This glory had condescend by covenant to prove that all who were His subjects were part of this great procession who would ascend up to the City of David and not with the military leading the way but Christ Himself surrounded by all of these musicians who played as they ascended to the Hill of Gods temple. This indeed was a time that no nation could rival. And yet you see this mighty Lamb of God who trample nations under foot like the grapes of His wrath there as a helpless sacrifice hanging on that cursed tree. And the whole point was that just as He led that ot procession in victory so He came to lead a bigger procession into eternity with Him. So this veiled glory was actually ushering in an even bigger event.       Reply Quote Notify 1164  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What price did God actually pay in giving up his son Jesus, for our sins? on: June 04, 2012, 06:39:11 PM Scott Jesus was both God and man. Fully God and fully man. So Jesus exist eternally in oneness with the Father and the Spirit. And so that little baby in the stable was sustaining the whole creation. He was fully God and fully man but those natures where, without conversion, composition, or confusion. And so in the gospels account you see these two natures side by side in the text. As God Jesus is immutable and eternal. But as man Jesus grew in knowledge and was subject to change. He was fully a man. So that even after the resurrection Jesus is still a man who is always growing in knowledge just as we will be in eternity. But Jesus did not change in the sense of sin. Because He had to give glory to the Father with both His spiritual desires and His physical expression. We know that its not a sin to experience weakness and temptation but when we are drawn away by our lust then we give into sin. But Jesus never experienced giving into His lust or His sinful desires. Obviously because He did not have sin dwelling in Him. And i do not think that Jesus could have sinned because He not only had to meet the requirements of being moral but His behavior had to be praise worthy in bringing glory to God. So I believe that Christ fulfilled the ot prophecy and the Psalms. And He was the man who acted without a desire that would have made Him stray from being totally in compliance with the Fathers will. And I do not mean as if the Law was something that was before Him but that His single focus was to do the Fathers will and in every moment He acted according to the Fathers will. But this was because He was united to the Father in oneness. So the Psalmist says that there is only one thing he desired. And i guess you could say that all of Christ desires were culminated in this one desire. So that in acting out His walk He never looked back in His desire to glorify His Father. And this was the enjoyment of that union to its fullest. This is why i do not believe that He could have sinned because He was so united to the Father that those temptations He experienced were resisted in His one desire that was to be praise worthy. When He died as God He was still one with the Father. But as a man He experienced death. Ive never thought about His soul separating from His body and going to heaven in those hours that He was dead.I do not think we know exactly what transpired when His soul left His body. But absent from the body present with the Lord. I will try to give you more answers.   Reply Quote Notify 1165  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Dual Personality Disorder on: June 04, 2012, 03:27:28 PM Let me talk about his idea of tension in a christians life. I havent seen this concept taught by theologians in describing it as tension. I think this is a word that is used by counselors. But i do not see tension in the same way as some of these two liners. But tension really is like anxiety. Because tension is like an arm wrestling contest. The weight is equally pulling. And i believe that tension really is something we believe in a doctrinal sense. So i see tension more as a mixture of the doctrines according to our propensities and bend in our theological corrupted understanding. This is why tension is so attractive. Because it presupposes that the bible teaches a balanced life as the view of salvation and deliverance. But the bible teaches a dogmatic way of thinking that prevents and allows through pre infused ability out of continuous grace. The bible is a book that teaches through dogma that we focus on causes. And in this dogma we experience freedom. We must understand that our whole position of salvation is delivered in the dogma of covenant. To ignore Gods covenant of love is to build tension into the christian experience in this false sense of balance. The point being is that in order for love to be the source of our purposes in this life God must come to us first. And if God does not precede our purpose not just in terms of His sovereign election but in His purposes to love us by covenant then we have this island of tension. And so salvation is not our need to prove that God is sovereign so that the good tension will over come the bad tension but because God loves us in covenant we fall back on God in need of free grace. In this sovereign God the message itself is the medicine.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 1166  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Gospel message(s) on: June 04, 2012, 03:04:12 PM The bible says that we are unable to come to God on our own. But at the same time since we do not know our own propensity to evil God must work in us through advocacy and redemption to give us His restraint. Because the love of God is the only thing that restrains us. But because God loves us He does not make us robots that do not respond according to our individual personality and our strength of person. Rather God changes us by changing our wills. When He calls us to salvation He implants His desires in us. He says.. "I will give them a new heart so that they will walk in My ways." So God changes our desires but He does not destroy our intrinsic desires but renews them by the Holy Spirit. Salvation and deliverance is the only real freedom that a person enjoys without bringing that person into bondage. We were in bondage but now we are free in the Spirit. To say that God must get us to a state of complete passivity is to believe that He is unable to renew our desires through His giving what He commands. What we are distinguishing here is the difference between grace and mysticism. Grace precedes all of our ability ,which is defined as our desires become Gods desire. And our desires are not just spiritual desires but they are all of our appetites as well. So the grace paradigm is the only realistic teaching of true freedom. And the reason that we do not naturally enjoy this kind of freedom is because we do not think that God is good enough to make us free enough to keep us. We really fail at the point of our faith. But the truth is that grace is the only reality that will save us from ourselves and bring us to a true understanding of our relationship with God as our Father. On the other hand if we do not accept that grace provides us with a clear understanding that our desires are Gods desires then we will try to help God out. And this is where we begin to imagine that we must be made to eat dust in order for God to be able to use us.   So in dividing the christian into good and bad equally we actually are trusting in phantom powers. We begin to divide life into the sacred and the mundane. This is where men begin to seek after other gods. This is what we call mysticism.   Reply Quote Notify 1167  Forums / Break Room / Re: hurting those you love on: June 04, 2012, 10:22:42 AM I just saw that last post s1. I understand what your trying to say. And ive talked like you in the past. But the kind of reasoning your using is very hard to connect with another person. Because theres really nothing concrete about what your saying. This kind of language only works in movies. lol But the truth is that your making a lot of assumption about what his motives are and your setting up a standard that can be set higher according to what you feel he is doing. And for a guy this gives him the feeling that he is being judged and pushed away. And i can tell you that this kind of thinking only keeps you at arms link with normal people. And i like people who try to play mind games because i have a lot of experience with this sort of thing. And this is why we had the soaps because you can describe a person in terms that seem to be rational but basically your saying that he is a mindless beast. lol But in my experience with this kind of psychological blackmail your standards are always going to not give you satisfaction that the other person has met your criteria of what is satisfactory connection and not control. And you will end up as i did feeling sorrow for yourself that you have pushed everyone one away from you by your impossible standard. I would not want to develop a relationship with someone in which the language was not natural. Because anytime you have a relationship the way you talk about it not only to the one you love but also to other people will make it or break it. And this is why when you use this kind of language it fosters more gossip and more character destruction. This is why i always reinterpret what a person who uses this kind of language to show them how in a round about way they are usually ending up saying the other person is scum. Why not just say that he is a mindless beast?   Reply Quote Notify 1168  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Evolution vs Intelligent Design - In Search of the Black Cat on: June 04, 2012, 08:42:10 AM A couple of distinctions here about theology and evolution. And the question about creation is who is God? If God is not complex then the causes of creation are not complex. And if God is simple not in the sense of Him never changing but in the sense that life itself is both understandable in the doctrines of grace and yet very mysterious. So if God is simple then He can be defined as our able to understand Him. So that if we can lower God then we can control Him. If we can lower God then we can turn the whole cause and effect motif upside down. We can say that life started from simplicity and went to complexity. Which is our making ourselves God.  And i believe that theology is not just an intellectual set of doctrines but its a disposition of child like faith. Its not only concluding that we have the basic understanding of God as to salvation but its also concluding that if Gods word is the final say then what we do not understand since God causes things from complexity then we must let God be God by saying His simple word says a night and a morning and we use these terms in the rest of scripture literally not figuratively. So in acknowledging God to be God we take His word literally. And if i am going to argue for exalting God then this is what i am going to logically believe. I also have a question for Bill. I was wondering how much the dna is effected by the central brain function in light of these electrical connections and how the body is connected to the brain like a computer sends and receives information. Does the brain have healing powers that create the ability to form cells that fight disease. I understand that our brain is like having circuits that are like path ways that we develop that help us have a healthy view of ourselves and our environment. I was just wondering how much this interacted at the cellular level.      Reply Quote Notify 1169  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: June 03, 2012, 10:43:24 PM http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/living-grace/player/the-nature-of-the-sealing-282209.html Oh boy... only Martyn could preach this... every time i listen to this i get the feeling that time has stopped. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1170  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Gospel message(s) on: June 03, 2012, 05:24:36 PM cont... i am convinced that people have this spirit about them. I know you will say that is just neurotic. But... and only my wife knows..ive felt like being around certain people that i am tempted to curse myself. And its funny because the people who do not believe in this have their feet on both sides. I believe this is the central question about what distinguishes a man as a man of conviction and not pragmatic. Because anyone who practices pragmatism is really a man of magical incantations and powers. Ive sat in a church and you will not know because as i ve said i am old enough to confuse which one. But the man gets up and prays for the Lord to bring pain.   Its like i am a vampire and this guy takes the cross out and holds it up.   And if youve been schooled in this sort of thing it creates in the person a kind of spirit of stout heartness. And if the gospel makes you cower in fear of punishment then what is the difference between Satan and God? They both curse you.   But this is kind of like a rhythm of life. Its the difference between living with just the lyrics and enjoying the music so to speak. A curse is a cursed disposition that always tempts people to that disposition. This is why I do not distinguish between the teaching of the refuge theology and a kind of silent joy or innocence and resignation. It builds in us a kind of faith that is child like. And if youve ever seen children they know when a person is jumpy and anxious or angry and self serving. Kids are always attracted to a rest that is more than silence. I really believe that the curse is like the temptation to be anxious or fearful. And so going over and over these Psalms it has creates a kind of rest that is almost so blessed that its like the young days when you were daydreaming. I am proud to say that i still daydream. And so its very easy to know when someone is trying to tempt you to curse yourself. And so i do not believe that doctrine itself gives us this healthy disposition. There are people who know the doctrine that are no different than an armininst. And it is a miss application of sin and the curse. Which to me is a magical view of someones powers. I really think that people can be megalomaniacs and not know it. But to curse without accusation or revenge is to leave it in Gods hands which is to curse that power which you really do not have.