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Most of what the other side talks about is
"old wives tales." Because they spend their time talking about life as
if its half of this and half of that. A little more of this and a little
less of that. And so this waste time in learning the real truths about
grace so that we grow up and do not remain in an infant stage. This is
what James was talking about.. why is there fighting among you? Because
they were infants in doctrine trying to act like counselors. The author
of Hebrews says that we should go on from the milk of the word to the
meat. And so there is a difference between focusing on a God who
wrestles people and a God who has told us who we are.
And this
makes all the difference in the world as to how we apply these things
because we will not be so quick to judge if we focused on what the bible
says rather than what we think and want as being free. You know you can
spend your whole life being an infant by just neglecting these words of
God.
What do infants need? They need other people to always keep
them accountable. They need to always have someone else around to give
them advice on what to do. But we are not the Holy Spirit. If God gave
us His word and then told us that other men and his word are the means
by which we become wise then He would not need to send the Spirit. lol
But what does it say? I will send my Spirit into their hearts.. no
longer will they need to be taught... no longer will they go astray
because My Spirit will guide them into all truth. In other words we
cannot abandon God.
And so the gospel message is like acid. You
know if you cut the acid with water it is in effective. The gospel in
itself does not need man to add to it or to explain it. No one
understands the gospel unless they are taught through word and Spirit.
The universe is not really men forcing other men to fall in line or
being in a holding cell until you hit rock bottom. lol But it is setting
your hearts on things above and not on the things of this earth.
Seeking first His kingdom. Because the gospel must not be mixed with
water to be effective. Just like the acid is poured on the paint and it
begins to curl up so the pure gospel is poured into the soul by word and
Spirit and it uproots all the deep seated desires that fight against
the work of the Spirit. There is no need to describe the christian faith
as a faith of men plugged into a religious system. The christian faith
is only real in word and Spirit.
The
standard concept's "u." stands for "Unconditional election", and refers
to there being nothing righteous in a person which God depends upon to
determine to save them. Perhaps joker can give us a more formal
definition than that.
Your definition is pretty standard book Calvinism:
- Election in Eternity is based not on anything within Man
- It is based on God's sovereign will and for His good pleasure
- It is not based on a person's merit
- It is not based on foreseen faith
- It is not based on Christ's own merit
Picirilli
notes that because of the Calvinist understanding Total Depravity as
Total Inability, a human would have no faith to foresee, so faith is the
first work in space-time of God's regenerating grace. This is
logically required to square with Paul's statement that Man is justified
(declared right with God; declared a member of God's covenant people)
by faith.
I can agree with this definition with the
clarification that God knows in advance who will weaken in their
resistance to His love, and become willing to let go of their rebellion
without being forced or coerced, in asking for/receiving Jesus as Lord
and Savior, which He is. Faith is offered to all, but most will
suppress and deny the offer. Only those who cannot persist in rejection
will surrender. So it is not our righteousness which God accepts
but our growing willingness to accept the truth of our total
unrighteousness and our need for the Savior. It is the deep, honest cry
of the heart for Him that He honors, and He knows which of us can come
to that point without His domination. He could easily coerce everyone
in this world to yield to the Truth but gives us the ability and the
power to reject Him as long as we choose to do so. A passage
comes to mind, which shows both His heart and our freedom to reject. We
are implored, not demanded without choice, to receive the
reconciliation He makes available in Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 "Now
all things are of God, Who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus
Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their
sins against them, and has committed to us the Word of reconciliation. Now
then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading
through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God."
Kk
is always saying that its not a clear choice but its God wrestling a
man until that man says uncle. But that is the same thing as saying God
chooses for the man to give up which is God willing the man to
surrender. Which is the same thing as saying that God chooses the man.
Its difficult to battle with words. Its kind of like arguing with an
infant. You know there is nothing logical about what they are saying. But
if God if fact overrides our wills then we are unable to not override
His will when we are saved. The only important truth of this is when we
are actually saved. All of the so called wrestling means nothing since
there is not scale of righteousness based upon the measure of
resistance. lol The fact is until we are actually saved we are
unable to be saved. What is so difficult in acknowledging that it was
impossible for us to be saved until God actually saved us? I mean God
doesnt save everyone. But according to Kk everyone wrestles with God.
But in the end God is still going to say "depart from Me." I mean if it
was so important that God force a man to be saved then why not bring him
to the door of outer darkness and give the man a last chance? lol All
of this is just semantics and talking about things that do not matter in
the end. There is not reward for half a salvation. lol But if
God is God then He is God by His will not by His wish. If man is not
saved it proves he cannot save himself. I mean given a clear choice
between eternal suffering in outer darkness and unending bliss of joy
and praise would resist until God proved that it was not wise to choose
outer darkness? How many people live their lives thinking like this? In
fact if offered a gift of a million dollars I do not know many men who
will resist until they feel the hopelessness of receiving the money. lol This
is why we believe that men are not able to see the clear choice until
God reveals it to them. And even in life a blind man who cannot see the
beauty of the object does not know the value of that object. Why?
Because he is not half blind but he is unable to see the value. This is
exactly what it is in the real world.
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1098
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine
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on: June 18, 2012, 12:20:24 PM
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2) Preface to the Edition of the Psalter in 1545
"Every
Christian who would abound in prayer and piety ought, in all reason, to
make the Psalter his manual; and, moreover, it were well if every
Christian so used it and were so expert in it as to have it word for
word by heart, and could have it even in his heart as often as he
chanced to be called to speak or act, that he might be able to draw
forth or employ some sentence out of it, by way of a proverb. For indeed
the truth is, that everything that a pious heart can desire to ask in
prayer, it here finds Psalms and words to match, so aptly and sweetly,
that no man—no, nor all the men in the world—shall be able to devise
forms of words so good and devout. Moreover, the Psalter doth minister
such instruction and comfort in the act of supplication; and the Lord’s
Prayer doth so run through it, and it through the Lord’s Prayer, that
the one helpeth us finely to understand the other, and the two together
make a pleasant harmony …"
In my opinion, any man who will but
make a trial in earnest of the Psalter and the Lord’s Prayer will very
soon bid the other pious prayers adieu, and say, Ah, they have not the
sap, the strength, the heart, the fire, that I find in the Psalter; they
are too cold, too hard, for my taste!Martin Luther
"Genuine
and earnest prayer proceeds first from a sense of our need, and next,
from faith in the promises of God. It is by perusing these inspired
compositions, that men will be most effectually awakened to a sense of
their maladies, and, at the same time, instructed in seeking remedies
for their cure. In a word, whatever may serve to encourage us when we
are about to pray to God is taught us in this book. And not only are the
promises of God presented to us in it, but oftentimes there is
exhibited to us one standing, as it were, amidst the invitations of God
on the one hand, and the impediments of the flesh on the other, girding
and preparing himself for prayer: thus teaching us, if at any time we
are agitated with a variety of doubts, to resist and fight against them,
until the soul, freed and disentangled form all these impediments, rise
up to God; and not only so, but even when in the midst of doubts,
fears, and apprehensions, let us put forth our efforts in prayer, until
we experience some consolation which may calm and bring contentment to
our minds (pp. xxxvii-xxxviii)." John Calvin ...Prayer and the Psalms
"Now
what Saint Augustine says is true, that no one is able to sing things
worthy of God unless he has received them from him. Wherefore, when we
have looked thoroughly everywhere and searched high and low, we shall
find no better songs nor more appropriate for the purpose than the
Psalms of David, which the Holy Spirit made and spoke through him. And
furthermore, when we sing them, we are certain that God puts the words
in our mouths, as if he himself were singing in us to exalt his glory."
John Calvin... footnotes on the Psalter
"In short, as calling
upon God is one of the principal means of securing our safety, and as a
better and more unerring rule for guiding us in this exercise cannot be
found elsewhere than in The Psalms, it follows, that in proportion to
the proficiency which a man shall have attained in understanding them,
will be his knowledge of the most important part of celestial doctrine
(p. xxxvii)." John Calvin
(1) Preface to the Revised Edition of the German Psalter (1531)
"The
Psalter has been lauded and loved by many holy fathers above the other
books of the Scripture; and, indeed, the work itself doth sufficiently
praise its Author. Nevertheless, we also must utter our praise and
thanks for it …
Yea, the Psalter ought to be precious and dear,
were it for nothing else but the clear promise it holds forth respecting
Christ’s death and resurrection, and its prefiguration of His kingdom
and of the whole estate and system of Christianity, insomuch that it
might well be entitled a Little Bible, wherein everything contained in
the entire Bible is beautifully and briefly comprehended, and compacted
into an enchiridion or Manual. It seems to me as if the Holy Ghost had
been please to take on himself the trouble of putting together a short
Bible, or book of exemplars, touching the whole of Christianity or all
the saints, in order that they who are unable to read the whole Bible
may nevertheless find almost the whole sum comprehended in one little
book … the Psalter is the very paragon of books …
Moreover, it is
not the poor every-day words of the saints that the Psalter expresses,
but their very best words, spoken by them, in deepest earnestness, to
God Himself, in matters of utmost moment. Thus it lays open to us not
only what they say about their works, but their very heart and the
inmost treasure of their souls; so that we can spy the bottom and spring
of their words and works—that is to say, their heart—in what manner of
thoughts they had, how their heart did bear itself, in every sort of
business, peril, and extremity …
What is the Psalter, for the
most part, but such earnest discourse in all manner of such winds? Where
are finer words of gladness than in the Psalms of Praise and
Thanksgiving? There thou lookest into the hearts of all the saints as
into fair and pleasant gardens, yea, as into the heavens, and seest what
fine, hearty, pleasant flowers spring up therein, in all manner of fair
gladsome thoughts of God and His benefits. And again, where wilt thou
find deeper, more plaintive, more sorrowful words of grief than in the
Psalms of complaint? There thou lookest again into the hearts of all the
saints, as into death, yea, as into hell. How they are filled with
darkness and gloom by reason of the wrath of God! So also, when they
discourse of fear and hope, they use such words, that no painter could
so portray, nor any Cicero or orator could so express, the fear or hope.
And
(as I said) the best of all is, that these words of theirs are spoken
before God and unto God, which puts double earnestness and life into the
words. For words that are spoken only before men in such matters do not
come so mightily form the heart, are not such burning, living, piercing
words. Hence also it comes to pass that the Psalter is the Book of all
the Saints; and every one, whatsoever his case may be, find therein
Psalms and words which suit his case so perfectly, that they might seem
to have been set down solely for his sake, in such sort that anything
better he can neither make for himself, nor discover, nor desire. One
good effect of which, moreover, is that if a man take pleasure in the
words here set forth and find them suit his case, he is assured he is in
the communion of the saints, and that all the saints fared just as he
fares, for they and he sing all one song together, particularly if he
can utter them before God even as they did, which must be done in faith,
for an ungodly man relishes them not …
To sum up; wouldest thou
see the Holy Catholic Church portrayed to the life in form and colour,
as it were in miniature? Open the Psalter. Thus thou shalt therein find
thine own self, and the right [knowledge of self], God Himself also and
all the creatures.
Let us, therefore, take heed also to thank God
for such unspeakable benefits, and to accept and make use of them to
the praise and honour of God, that we bring not upon ourselves wrath by
our unthankfulness. For, formerly, in the time of darkness, what a
treasure it had been esteemed if men had been able rightly to understand
one psalm, and to read or hear it in plain German! and yet they were
not able. Blessed now are the eyes which see the things that we see, and
the ears which hear the things that we hear! And yet take heed—alas, we
already see, that we are like the Jews in the wilderness, who said of
the manna, ‘Our soul loatheth this light bread.’ It behoves us to mark
what is written in the same place, how they were plagued and died, that
it may not befall us also after the same sort.
To this end, may
the Father of all grace and mercy help us, through Jesus Christ our
Lord, to whom be blessing and thanks, honour and praise, for this German
Psalter, and for all His innumerable gifts, for evermore; Amen and
Amen!" Martin Luther
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1099
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Whose prisoner are you?
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on: June 18, 2012, 08:56:12 AM
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My contention with self denial is how we view
the self and inability. So we can experience freedom from wanting
acceptance from others. Our desires to overcome all obstacles is part of
holding onto our faith. Because God has given us new desires so that
our desires are His desires in His perfect word. So there is nothing
wrong with seeking God in this direct way of focusing and pleading ,
pleading again, and pressing in on the promises of God.
A lot of
people think that to test God is to seek Him beyond what is considered
normal. They really do not believe that God rewards people who do
something that is more than what is required. And so they view
relationships with this struggle to have a balance in pleasing men. And
they view their pride in the mirror of how they are connected to other
men. But we can experience a conversion of freedom through the word and
Spirit. We can use the word for out personal benefit. We do not need to
look at the word as simply something that brings us the truth about
ourselves.
This is what ive been trying to get across is that
what we are before God is more important than what we do or who we are
before men. Ive been saying that God has given us an ability to find
transparency in His presence that transcends our own view of who we are.
The circumstances of life are actually the opposite of the experience
of this transparency. Because we learn not to act before God but in our
approach we bring the bad ... we learn to be who we really are because
God is God. In learning to be who we are in knowing God then there is
nothing wrong with pleading our own cause. In a sense we as believers
cannot be proud because we understand how serious our purpose is.
"…
there is not an emotion of which any one can be conscious that is not
here represented as in a mirror. Or rather, the Holy Spirit has here
drawn … all the griefs, sorrows, fears, doubts, hopes, cares,
perplexities, in short, all the distracting emotions with which the
minds of men are wont to be agitated. The other parts of Scripture
contain the commandments which God enjoined his servants to announce to
us. But here the prophets themselves, seeing they are exhibited to us as
speaking to God, and laying open all their inmost thoughts and
affections, call, or rather draw, each of us to the examination of
himself in particular, in order that none of the many infirmities to
which we are subject, and of the many vices with which we abound, may
remain concealed. It is certainly a rare and singular advantage, when
all lurking places are discovered, and the heart is brought into the
light, purged from that most baneful infection, hypocrisy (p. xxxvii)."
John Calvin.... Wonder of the Psalms
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1101
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: 100 Bible facts on Sabbath and sunday
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on: June 17, 2012, 06:05:46 PM
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Brother,
If
you look at the Book of Acts, and I think you ignored the Scripture
that I quoted, you will see that the early Jewsh Christians worshipped
as Jews on the Sabbath, but met as people of the way on the first day of
the week. They worshipped, fellowshiped, celebrated communion, and
took an offering.
Romans and the Scripture quoted by Willis show
that we should not Judge one another on this issue. If people want to
consider one day or another for the Lord, they do it to the Lord. Some
choose not to worship on a day, and they do that to the Lord also.
If
you look at Hebrews in context, you will find that the writer has
something else in mind than worshipping on Saturday in the 21st Century.
You started out by making the Sabbath universal, now you are back to the Law.
Finally, you certainly won't find Sunday in the Scripture. However, You will probably not find Mon,
Tue, or Wed either.
My
sarcasm aside, which I sometimes use for effect, don't you think that
with a lost world out there, there are issues of more importance than
this?
I certainly won't bother you if you chose to folow the law,
but please allow the rest of the church follow what Christians have
been doing since 33 AD.
I agree
with you Loren. I used to consider every day the Lords day. But its all
semantics. Because the day can replace the idea of God providing us with
a morning... we wake up and its a new day... or that is a creation
desire that we focus on to keep us from sorrow and being worried about
the next day. The bible says that we hope for Gods love in the morning.
And so if God creates the beginning of the day then we worship Him as He
is. lol And i understand that the first day of the week is set
aside to worship God in his temple but there are times when we
experience a kind of exile. So every moment we are to pray...praise
God...and long to see God. Because if we divide up our lives between the
good times and the times where we struggle then God is not pleased. If
we focus on just one day then we will not think about the high times we
had in the past. But we are to look to the Lord and stir up the gifts
within us by remembering His goodness to us in those special times.
Because God wants to build memories of good times when He provided us
with experiences through word and Spirit of His love, joy, peace etc..
that one passion that bubbled up in us and overflowed out of us. God is
not going to give us confidence about a specific day of worship but He
will give us confidence more and more of drawing near to Him as He is
lifted up. And so He uses our sin, our times of exile, our memories, and
all of His works in the past to create in us a heart of worship as He
provides us with that culture. In this we learn the value of lifting God
up because it provides us with new conversion to strengthen us by
stirring us up to new heights. I hope the day becomes our finding God
rather than focusing on the means themselves.
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1107
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Whose prisoner are you?
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on: June 17, 2012, 01:08:08 PM
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mbG:
"We say that fear is a prison and the prisoners are the schizophrenic ,
depressed , etc. But the truth is we are really fighting against those
who are held captive to this world and Christ has come to release the
prisoners and bring them into eternity." K_k: Yes, fear can be a
prison, as can resentment, and addiction. That is not just "spiritual
gnosticism", but can be very real experiences to those caught up in
them. And yes, our real warfare is with "principalities, powers, rulers
of darkness, and spiritual hosts of wickedness". Jesus sets us
free from all these bondages and prisons. But you can't always tell a
person bound up with irrational fears that he is a prisoner of satan.
Well, i suppose you could but you might well make them more paranoid.
I'm a prisoner of my eternal lover,Anne Kerr!!   There's a whole lot of Anne Kerr's. Which of the many are you a prisoner of?
Kk
is simply saying that experience is equal with scripture. And he has
even made mention that Christ can be found if we try to come clean of
our addictions. He does not even believe that the offer of Christ is a
clear message that introduces
people to freedom. And so this whole order of salvation gets turned
upside down. Because people experience terrible things and their
experience doesnt always agree with the dogma of scripture. And
you see this in all religious circles today. If God is sovereign then
the proof of it is our obedience. But this is not how the apostle
reasoned. Because the apostle had to come to the hard facts about Gods
will as opposed to mans will. And so the apostle was brought to a place
where he was made to be intentional about God always being vindicated by
His free acts to choose according to His free mercy and not anything in
man. What did the people accuse Paul of? Antinomianism. They were
accusing Paul of preaching a gospel that rewarded people for sin.How did
the apostle respond to this charge? He responded by saying that the
whole world was without hope and God was just in choosing since no one
deserves salvation. Because its a message that only works when God is
clearly seen as free to choose. So that all of these missionary
endeavors have their success in the soil of Calvinism.
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1109
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Whose prisoner are you?
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on: June 16, 2012, 03:02:36 PM
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The biblical teaching of a prisoner is one of
war. But we take this word and make it a psychological one. So we say
that fear is a prison, regret is a prison. etc Its just like we try to
make the NT not about war or politics. And we fail because we make it
sound like the state of the world has no relation to our present
christian experience. ie We dont fight against flesh and blood, our
circumstances mean nothing compared to eternity, the words from the ot
are changed into a kind of spiritual gnosticism. And so we preach two
separate worlds that have no relation to each other.
And this
is why we seem so divorced from the real world. I mean we even divide
our lives into work, private, marriage, and spiritual. And we teach a
kind of passivism in how we approach the world. Its like a gnostic
spiritualism where the physical is trying to balance these two worlds
and one is worship and the other is discipline. But the bible does not
teach this kind of over being spiritualistic.Rather these terms of the
gospel actually come from words in the context of a soldier and war. And
the reality is that you cant take the aggression, fight, passion and
anger out of the context of the culture of these words.
So the
bible connects salvation to a spiritual fight in which we stand our
ground with the word of God. And our goal is not to be a balanced man
but to be a man who only seeks one thing. You know we are resisting like
being in war. The reality is that all of these institutions are not
passive to our christian experience but we really do have evil men
opposing us at every turn.
This is why you cant take these words
out of their context and not present a gnostic message that makes the
christian life a psychological one. And this is exactly what we have
done. We say that fear is a prison and the prisoners are the
schizophrenic , depressed , etc. But the truth is we are really fighting
against those who are held captive to this world and Christ has come to
release the prisoners and bring them into eternity.
The problem
is that we play fast and loose with the teachings of the bible and make
them gnostic. And so we must go back to the context in which they are
taken and then we will begin to paint a picture of a man walking down
this road and these words that we use are what a soldier would confront
in war. So that we bring this back to its very physical and practical
application to life.
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1110
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Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Steve is wrong... Church Discipline 6/1
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on: June 16, 2012, 01:47:51 PM
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Christ is light that shines in darkness.
Because He is the only one who acted correctly. So all the earth is
guilty in order that He might be seen as rite. Upon this truth He is the
light that shines in our faces the gospel. For the gospel not the law
is the only power for our salvation.
We are not saved by being
cleaned up. We are not accepted by our Father by being cleaned up. We
are accepted because Christ is accepted by the Father. The light is not a
moral agreement but rather its the glory of Christ who deserves all
praise. Christ is the image of the Father.. the express image of His
glory. When we look to Christ we are changed from one glory to another.
We are not seeking to add our goodness to Him but we are looking at a
real historical figure who showed Himself as the only worthy man to
accept praise honor and glory.
Our worship is not in the
written code but we worship God in spirit. When we were saved the Spirit
began to cry abba Father. In His light we see light. When we look to
Christ the light of His glory shines in our faces and we are changed. He
does not offer us a set of rules but He offers Himself as our
enjoyment. We seek to glorify God by enjoying Him forever.
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