mbG: "This is how we are encouraged to seek after God! To find a new level of dependence and nearness."
K_k:
Yes, and that is, more than anything else, just seeing the truth. We
are already totally dependent on God, even when we aren't aware of it,
and we could not be any nearer if we tried real hard. He lives in us
and is our very Life and the Source of all the good in our lives,
including all functioning aspects of our body, mind, soul and spirit.
But we must know this at a far deeper than intellectual level.
We
cannot deny that people struggle with these matters of faith. We are
talking about this whole area of things beyond the physiological.
Because true saving faith must apprehend causes beyond the rational.
There must be a new conviction of these things that go beyond the
rational powers. This is why we say that faith is based upon the pure
revelation of God. The scriptures are the communication of that single
beam from heaven that creates the environment for faith to see and
understand the spiritual object. This is why the word of God as
described in scripture has this three pronged paradigm. It is the power
of production of all that exist. Not only in the first creation but in
terms of whatever transpires in time. He opens His hand and satisfies
the desires of every living thing. Or faith sees the hand so to speak...
it connects reality to the movement of the hand. And it sees the person
in the hand. It also connects the powers of ability and grace to the
production of a direct influence from the hand and to the condition of
the quality of faith. The second apprehension is this ongoing
ability to persevere. Faith apprehends a sense of all of the reception
of how things transpire as the view of the light from that single beam.
This is the faith of expectation. Faith has an eye on receiving as life
unfolds. Its receiving abilities from the beam. Faith is positive as it
produces the seeing of things from the ability of grace. So that a
person understand that all of these spiritual things flow in one
direction and not two. It is the conviction that i move when He decides.
I struggle with sin when He decides... i am able with He decides... i
am weak when He decides.... i am ruler when He decides... i am empowered
when He decides... i am revived when He decides. The grace of faith is
the power of the flow of Gods immunations through all things. A person
cannot persevere through faith if he is not connected to the Head in the
vision of faith. Then faith apprehends the future reality.
Because faith is the enable ment of the eyes of the soul to focus on the
beauty of all things that are good. It sees the object of Christ as
the cause of the power of all things in this movement of grace
necessity. The eyes of the soul are determined to view Christ as if the
life of the future event produced a new communication of dependent trust
and a source of infused grace. Faith produced as vision sees things
that are brought into view prior to the future event. Faith brings a
person to experience this Divine beam from heaven in the wholeness of
the reality of the event.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does God love satan?
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on: June 01, 2010, 07:50:42 AM
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If
i have a puppy whom i love very much, which grows into a dog who is my
best friend, my constant companion, my greatest fan, my consolation, my
buddy. And if that dog, whom i love, is bitten by a rabid squirrel and
becomes rabid and violent and a danger to others and myself. Then i may
still love the dog, but have to put it to sleep somehow. To an
on-looker it may look like i hate the dog, but the hatred is for the
disease that corrupts my loved one. So it is with God and satan.
You have a fond way of showing your love. hehe... But
this to me is pure denial. I believe the most vile hatred is done with a
smile. Some of the most religious people are filled with this hatred.
Because religion... i mean... not orthodox....is the soil for the use of
hatred in order to prove that God means business. In fact i believe
that the exercise of free self determined will is like shaking a fist in
the face of God and man. God told Cain... "if you do well then you will
be rewarded. But if you do evil sin is crouching at the door " Cain
exercised his free will and slew his brother. So given the equal choice
as a scriptural basis...on a comparative to rolling it over to God...
who have you killed today? I mean... whether it is taking on a sorrow in
which you direct toward yourself or its having thoughts of revenge...
its still the exercise of all things equal. Cause you cant have it both
ways. If God is fair in the sense you speak about here "He is Creator
and Sustain er of all, and has the perfect Plan to give exactly fair
treatment to all." Then hows come this world is not fair? How can a
person accept the free will premise when it is a system that tries to
create fairness with such controlling and negative accusations? Promises
truth in a sense of progressiveness checks and balances.... and lies
about its success rate! I give you the answer...because men
cannot create fairness in any relationship by arbitrary rules. That is
hatred with a smile. Men are not fair because they hate Gods
determinations. If we do not start with God and His will... if we do not
conclude ... who are you to talk back to God? when we think of freedom
and fairness then we are hating everyone around us and we are directing
the hate to our own hurt. God is always good because God does as He
pleases. Man is always unloving because he wants a God who allows him
the freedom to hate what is not fair. But the answer is to conclude that
God does whatever pleases Him because He is love.
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3353
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does God love satan?
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on: May 31, 2010, 04:10:04 AM
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Yes,
David says in several Psalms that God hates evil people. And David
says he hates his enemies, and he hates God's enemies. While Jesus says
to love our enemies. And Jesus lay down His Life in love for the
enemies of God, for evil people, including us.
But Jesus also told us to hate our relatives, and said God shows love to His enemies.
“If
anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and
children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be
My disciple." Luke 14:26
“You have heard that it was said,
‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you,
love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate
you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that
you may be sons of your Father in Heaven; for He makes His sun rise on
the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."
Matthew 5:43-45
K_k: So how do we put this together? Here is
one way to reconcile what we are being told. When we speak of the
"hatred" of God Who is perfect love, we do not mean the hostile emotion
men mean by "hate". He is still perfect love with respect to His
enemies. But He cannot have an intimate relationship, a union of hearts
with those who reject Him.
So compared to the "saved" who will
be in union with Him forever, the contrast for the "lost" appears to be
hatred. Similarly, when it comes to choosing Jesus versus obeying our
parents or spouse or siblings (when they are in conflict with God's
directions), the instant and consistent choice for Jesus may look like
we "hate" our relatives and love Jesus only.
Actually, Jesus is
not commanding us to hate our relatives with human hatred, but rather to
love Him so much that any human relationship will never take priority
over Him, and thus appear to be hatred for others. Our Dad does not
hate His enemies as a man can, but compared to the bliss He has in store
for those who receive Him in Christ, those who do not receive the
Savior will appear to be hated, since there will be no fellowship and
communication with them in eternity.
If we examine the actions of
God in selecting the line for the Messiah, we see that He loved this
one, but "hated" that one. Did the One Who is perfect love hate them as
we understand hate, or did He love them as His creatures but compared
to the glory and intimacy in store for those in the Messianic line,
their rejection will appear to be hatred?
Thus, God loves His
enemies, and sent His Son to die for them/us. In comparison to the
future of those who receive His Gift, the future of those who don't
receive Him will look like rejection and hatred, brought about by their
not accepting the reality of His love and suppressing His living Truth
which/Who reveals it.
Your theory is very
mechanical. First hatred is expressed in relationship. Our relationship
to God and to ourselves and to others. Hatred is not a force that is
stored away. Jesus says you either hate me or love me. Because every
desire and event in this time continuum is necessary. There is a cause
prior to a choice. Or the determination is in the cause as it is in the
choice itself. But hatred is the evil disposition of the
traitor. Hatred only exist out of necessity because of sin. Hate what is
evil ....cling to what is good. Whether hatred is expressed to God in
our love for idols or it is a form of evil mutilation.. hatred spiraling
down into unbelief.. hatred is necessary in order to have an ongoing
trust in Christ. First because this world is filled with
traitors... and these traitors exist in our own hearts as well. There is
a healthy self hatred. Because if we do not hate idols then we do not
reject what is wrong. Because loving truth is rejecting idols. We must
deal with our hatred before God alone in order to have a healthy self
hatred. This is a very serious problem. Because we cant go around
destroying other people who worship an idol. We have a propensity to
take things into our own hands. This is why we talk about God as the
absolute sovereignty over the universe. God alone takes this into His
own hands to exercise His justice as He sees fit.
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3354
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine
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on: May 30, 2010, 06:47:12 PM
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mbG
quoting: "The greatest judgment which God Himself can, in this present
life, inflict upon a man is, to leave him in the hand of his own boasted
free-will.
-AUGUSTUS TOPLADY"
K_k: True, since our will,
apart from God, ends in torment and self-destruction. When we reject
His forgiveness, mercy and grace we are demanding the opposite of
these. But the freedom to choose Him, and His will, He has made
available to all. We are to be ambassadors, pleading with people to be
reconciled to God, not trying to threaten them into the Kingdom.
Fear
of the Lord is the "beginning" of wisdom but does not save us, apart
from Christ. The "lost" will fear Him on Judgment Day, but their own
resistance against, and rebellion toward Him will still destroy them.
Anyone
who "accepts Jesus" as a type of guaranteed fire-insurance will find
the policy was not approved by Him. He wants our hearts, not just our
fear.
The greatest words on this earth are the
prayers for Gods salvation. Because there is nothing that draws the soul
near to hope than to find that God encourages us to give our own
desires for protection over to Him in our determinations. This is that
wall of self that we are always visioning for the Spirit to overcome so
that we can be extended for greater dependence on God alone! So that we
want to hear God respond to our drawing near to Him. The Psalmist would
make a plea for God and then he would express his most insecure pain. In
drawing near to God then he would make that plea again. As if he was
shedding all of his pain the second time. But then that was not
enough... he would feel a sense of this transaction and the third time
he would enter in as a child and instead of just wanting to be rescued
or saved from that trial the Psalmist would find his heart drawn out to
ask our Father to come near. In other words the Psalmist had come to be
drawn out beyond just wanting to be rescued and he was knocking on the
door of heaven. At that last plea our Father opens the door and the last
cry for his drawing near is met as if he had already been rescued. This
is how we are encouraged to seek after God! To find a new level of
dependence and nearness.
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3355
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does God love satan?
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on: May 30, 2010, 05:56:40 PM
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mbG: "How can he (K_k) possibly believe there is retribution?"
K_k:
Our Dad is perfectly fair and just, as well as being merciful and
gracious. He will bring only perfect and appropriate retribution on His
enemies. By His standards, not ours. By His Truth, not our
distortions.
Each person will either accept the payment for their
sins that is offered in Christ, or accept the payment by themselves for
their sins. God pleads with the "lost" through the Church and the
Spirit to receive His reconciliation in Christ, but many will not.
Recall
that "the soul that sins shall die" and that "the wages of sin is
death" and that the result of the Judgment is called "the Second
Death". Yes, there will be retribution for violation of the Law of God,
which will either taken by Jesus on the Cross, or personally by the
individual who rejects His mercy.
And we will all agree that He
has been exactly fair in His treatment of each person and being. And
that perfect Love could do no more than He has done.
Kk
your always putting me in the ogre position. I only do this for the
defense of the church. Here is a direct statement for you. Ps. 11 5 The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates. 6 On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulfur; a scorching wind will be their lot.
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3358
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine
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on: May 30, 2010, 06:38:40 AM
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"And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine
linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his
mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he
will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the
fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he
has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
- Revelation 19:14-16
Jesus
is Lord [over all] and he will soon be invading with His armies. He is
offering pardon in advance of His invasion and should you receive the
pardon and ally yourself with Him now before He invades, when he comes
you will be considered His ally and He will raise you to Kingship. The
alternative is to be under the wrath of the king. It is not some kind of
religious option. It an announcement that a new king is on the throne
and he'll be invading. The gospel is not an invitation to an array of a
buffet style choices, it is a command. Will you heed the command? Jesus
is Lord, repent and believe.
-William Wilder
The greatest
judgment which God Himself can, in this present life, inflict upon a man
is, to leave him in the hand of his own boasted free-will.
-AUGUSTUS TOPLADY
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3359
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does God love satan?
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on: May 30, 2010, 06:32:42 AM
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Tb... Kk does not believe that people are
suffering in a place of torment in eternity. How can he possibly believe
there is retribution? But if you sit and think about suffering in the
fires of hell and in the presence of God for all eternity i dont see how
you cannot believe that God carries out His perfect anger for sin and
sinners.
Its a warning for all mankind.
Psalm 28
Of David.
1 To you I call, O LORD my Rock;
do not turn a deaf ear to me.
For if you remain silent,
I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
2 Hear my cry for mercy
as I call to you for help,
as I lift up my hands
toward your Most Holy Place.
3 Do not drag me away with the wicked,
with those who do evil,
who speak cordially with their neighbors
but harbor malice in their hearts.
4 Repay them for their deeds
and for their evil work;
repay them for what their hands have done
and bring back upon them what they deserve.
5 Since they show no regard for the works of the LORD
and what his hands have done,
he will tear them down
and never build them up again.
6 Praise be to the LORD,
for he has heard my cry for mercy.
7 The LORD is my strength and my shield;
my heart trusts in him, and I am helped.
My heart leaps for joy
and I will give thanks to him in song.
8 The LORD is the strength of his people,
a fortress of salvation for his anointed one.
9 Save your people and bless your inheritance;
be their shepherd and carry them forever.
Its
hard for me to take Kk seriously when i read the accounts in the OT and
Nt where God destroys men in wars, earthquakes, floods, sudden
happenings, warnings of judgment of apostasy etc. Kk you have the
ability to live in denial of the most fundamental and obvious teachings
in scripture.
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