4126	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Am I wrong to forgive?	on: November 16, 2009, 02:43:35 PM
Quote from: w8okn on November 16, 2009, 12:58:08 PM I often wonder if we Christians need to have a better understanding of forgiveness (me included). Christ died on the cross so that we’d be forgiven. Although I am no theologian, I can’t seem to find the list of things that are unforgivable (besides the sin against the Holy Spirit). We are to sincerely repent to Christ and then we are forgiven. That’s it. I know of no exceptions, besides the one. And even more importantly, Jesus reminds us more than once that since we are forgiven, we are to forgive others. There is nothing that says we shouldn’t for this reason, or that. We’re simply to forgive. When Christ was asked if we were to forgive seven times, he responded and said, “Seven times Seventy.” The answer is, we are to forgive, and forgive, and forgive. I can’t find anything conditional about that. It’s not like Jesus said that we are to forgive if… He simply and clearly stated that since we are forgiven, then we are to do the same. Since we are capable of some of the worse sins (Dr. Brown cleared this up for me), and since so many of us have committed some pretty awful sins, it makes me wonder if those that are forgetful of this are facing the reality about their own nature. We are self-centered and rather selfish, and I’m often one of the worse. All of us are pretty bad off, down deep inside, and pointing out someone else’s sin clearly ignores this reality. I too, am capable of pointing out someone else’s sin, even the sin of not forgiving others. I, too, have neglected to forgive people at times. But that doesn’t make it right. We're all capable of not forgiving others, and if we improve our understanding of total forgiveness, and what it means, I suspect we'd all do a little better at forgiving others. If we would just be more aware of our own sinful nature, and what we have done and what we are capable of doing, I’d like to hope that we’d be more forgiving of those that have made some stupid mistakes, even mistakes that were unintentional. To think that we have been forgiven by a God who has the power to simply start over is amazing. Yet, the opposite has happened. He has promised not to start over. A few days ago, I was told of a pastor in the Midwest who ran a red light and was killed in an auto accident. Yes, that’s right. He ran the red light. He was at fault for the accident and he was killed. Immediately, prayers went out for the family and there is much grief, no doubt. He was a good pastor and a leader in the church. At the same time, though, we have to be reminded that he was a pastor. The man is in heaven and with Christ, forever. He is forgiven! Since the accident was his fault, I was stunned to hear people already criticizing him for his error and criticizing the mourners for not mentioning the members of the other vehicle, who are in pain, as well. The attacks on this pastor have already begun and to be frank, it makes me want to puke. If you drive a car, you’ve accidentally driven through a red light. It’s a given. The mistake is an easy one to make and we have all done it, and many of us have done it numerous times. To condemn a man, or anyone for this, is simply a demonstration of arrogance and a denial of one’s own sin, and sinful nature. If you haven't driven through a red light, you're a rare exception, and instead of criticizing those who have, you may want to just thank God you haven't, yet. To hold back forgiveness for someone who makes any mistake goes against what Christ has taught us. The only unforgivable sin is the sin of denying the Holy Spirit. The only way to find yourself in hell is to refuse to believe in Jesus. I repeat, all other sins are forgiven, and this includes the sin of running through red lights. It also includes the sin of murder and it includes the sin of abortion. Of course, no sin is acceptable, and all sin is punishable. While at the same time, all sins are forgivable and when we repent, we are forgiven. I say again, since we are forgiven, as Christians, then we are to forgive, without holding back. We do not have the luxury of deciding which sins are to be forgiven, that’s God’s job, and He has already spoken. Don’t try to do his job. It’s a huge pill to swallow, I know. But, it's imperative. When we feel like someone has harmed us, for whatever reason, holding back the forgiveness only harms us. And you ought to really think about that one. You see, ask yourself this question. When you hold back forgiveness, do you really believe it is harming the one who harmed you, or is holding on to that pain actually harming you, more? The person with whom you are angry with has probably already made peace, especially if that person is a Christian. So, holding back forgiveness (which isn’t yours to hold back in the first place) is probably causing you a great deal more harm, and not having any effect on the other person anyway. Your stomach is turning over something in which you have control. And there is more. Holding back forgiveness is a denial that you have ever harmed anyone, and never needed forgiveness. In the end, it’s saying that you are somewhat superior to the rest of us, with somehow, less sin. We are to forgive, and we are to love in the same way in which we want to be loved. This, to me, means that I want to be forgiven when I harm someone, intentionally or otherwise. To be forgiven, is to be loved and to love someone (like we are commanded), means to forgive and forget. Don’t try to do God’s job by sorting out what is really in the heart of the sinner. You can’t go there. You’re clueless about that, since you can’t read into a person’s heart. Give it up and give it up to God. I believe that if we want to be forgiven, then we should expect that others do, too. To think otherwise is reading into someone's heart that which you cannot see. So pledge to yourself (I will try, too) to forgive those around you who have harmed you. Show the world what this faith in Christ is all about. Love the Lord with all your heart and love those around you in the same way you want to be loved, which is to be forgiven for your sins, which is the epitome of love (remember, he died on the cross for our sins) and it’s the ultimate sign of love, and the example He gave us. Forgive, and I think you will find... Peace I am not accusing anyone here.. I have met Steve and he is loving. But i have seen this kind of thinking used to bully people. Theres a lot more there in scripture than to make a blanket statement that all forgiveness is universal. I mean there are a lot of different views on this. I believe that anyone should have a spirit of forgiveness ...I mean its really not a good thing to try to get a person to agree with someone like certain unorthodox views of spreading the gospel as a tool to do it out of guilt. Jesus did this for you and you cant even do that deed?  I have seen this used to get a program started. This is a very sensitive area with most people .. unless a person actually believes that they are completely neutral in any matter. i dont want to seem like i am attacking people with the gift of evangelism... i actually enjoyed  unorthodox evangelist..being from Miami ... the town of evangelist of all different sorts.... its just they usually dont stay around long enough to have a conversation.. off to win souls.. hehe.
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4127	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...	on: November 16, 2009, 10:50:36 AM
This is just plain old self righteousness. You couldnt keep yourself in God if He said you could. Cause God cannot do something to someone on the basis of a sliding scale. You either meet the requirements of the law as God demands or you are toast. Thor seems to be playing games here. He is saying in essence that Thor has kept himself from judgment of sin. Hey Thor... let me move out of the way. If any one preaches a works doctrine ... that is a doctrine apart from the grace of God.. that salvation is by grace alone from the beginning to the end.. .the apostle says let God give to him all of the curses that are meted out to those who live by the law. I want to warn everyone that if you trust yourself to be saved then you are in danger of being damned. Non of these terms in hebrews use for those who receive judgment are saving terms. Every house is built by someone... but God is the cause of every house that exist. I do not think God was talking about being a contractor either!! Hes talking about His dwelling!! God is the author of salvation because Christ was the brother over Gods house. Christ brought many brothers to heaven when He suffered on our behalf... because Christ suffered He is able to help those in His family!!That is the family that is in the house!! Either the visible church or the invisible church. All are secure because Christ entered the house.. the temple and closed the book and said that He was that which was prophesied by Isaiah. Then He brought with Him in His death and resurrection many sons to glory!! There is no way on Gods green earth after the author of Hebrews teaches the security of Gods family to then turn around and say that these same people are in danger of apostatizing.He is talking about the unbeliever in your mist!! The one who does" not know the ways of God".. (this phrase is a catch phrase in OT terms... its talking about the uncircumcised in heart... and going back to the garden its a phrase exclusively for the wicked... in this case its those who were of the Nation of Israel in name only and who died in the desert!! Any one who knows OT scripture knows how important this "not know the ways of God". 129  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: This Kind.... on: November 15, 2009, 10:51:04 AM Put the flesh to death is using the means to do something that we do not have the power to do in our own strength. Because whatever ability we have is proceeded by grace. Death in this sense is God using these different paradigms to shield us from the tendencies to trust in the arm of the flesh. The arm of the flesh is our own confidence as we think about what has transpired in our lives and what kinds of situations that we enter into in which we begin to fight against a force that is too strong for us. We are talking about the tendency to enter into a temptation as that definition that we face in the world of the meta physical before we actually follow our desire in doing the deed. Now this is not something that we find natural to our being able to find the proper place for a positive reaction in this indirect effect of His working power to us. We are talking here about teaching ourselves how to identify these dangerous dispositions in how we precede to effect our own spiritual experience through these longing graces. For we do have a predispostion to think that in our own power we can kill something by our attacking it rather than dwelling in the vivifying graces that we have in our experience of His protection. Now then whether we know that we react in a conscious way.. i mean in the sense of being able to muse at that reality of our different ways of dealing with a thought as it enters our minds ...yet we are dealing with the power of a thought as the spiritual en grafting of a general mood that keeps us from the most simple links to knowing His power in these graces.  I would say here that every potential spiritual power for evil is always lurking as that by which we are ensnared into a general tendency to be hardened not in sin necessarily but in the potential to be tempted to sin. We are talking about a way of entering into temptation as a path rather than finding temptation in a thing. Our tendency is to attack an evil in an outward sense. We are rational beings who have a predominate desire to read these realities as they enter into our minds through our physical senses. I do not think that grace teaches us to find a balance between our new spiritual senses and our physical senses. But we have a whole new world in the meta physical reality. In this way we are taught by grace to not trust our physical senses.  This is why when the bible talks about senses it really captivates our attention when it uses these senses as powers of the flesh that war against the spirit or ... we have a new nature that has new spiritual senses that are causing us to view things differently through our physical senses. I think its a causal relationship here with a tendency to experience temptation in these areas of the physical senses. This is why we fight the battle with our minds so that we do not experience the power of temptation as having this causal experience with sin and its fellowship with our physical senses.  Our danger is on the inside of us!!We are very complicated sinners!! We find that the way of temptation is natural to us before we desire one thing with our eyes!! We must train ourselves to distinguish when we are entering into temptation in our minds before we enter into temptation with our physical senses!!   Remove Reply Quote Notify 4130  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize on: November 14, 2009, 03:14:55 PM 4137  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: This Kind.... on: November 13, 2009, 12:03:15 PM In a backwards world. I dont want to sound to arrogant. But if we look at this life as if we are not what we are in the lowest common denominator then we are totally different when we think in terms of transformation rather than the point system. I know its hard to think that we are different even tho we are like everyone as being weak and under some peer pressure. But if you could think about this as an example. Lets say you fell asleep and you had this dream that seem so real that when you awoke you were emotionally attached to that dream even tho you got your senses back and realized it was a dream. In a sense this is what a christian is like in the real world... i mean ... we have this world .. the eternal world in which we always under the powers of something that is far greater than we could imagine and yet we do not always live as if it is what we are. There is a difference between self pride and pride in a new identity. This i think is where we have a difficult time distinguishing how we are made by God to function in a world that is corrupted. And in this sense I agree with my buddy Gene... we are no longer in our identity looked upon as sinners. I mean the old two dog theology has taught us a lot of soul ish mentality as opposed to the real paradigm of the spiritual man. But we are really different from the world.. not just in terms of belonging to another family but in terms of how we think... we are totally different. In this way everything that transpires around us and because of us have their reasons that are beyond just the event itself. Whether we are coming into a new situation or leaving an old one it really matters very little to us what other people think or say. Even if all of the people around us opposed us .. even if there were a hundred counselors that warned us... if it is God moving us in that direction then we will never... now listen... the only reality is what we know we are!!! Not what others say we are!!! I really am not saying that life is about moving against everyone. I am simply saying that the first quality of a believer is that he can distinguish between living with a real sense of self identity and living as if other people were his identity. In this way it is more important for us as being who we are in Christ to be single minded rather than desiring for an opinion. Believe it or not this is taken from the Psalm 4141  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Praying in the Spirit on: November 12, 2009, 03:43:30 PM  This idea of waiting on God is spread throughout the Psalms." I wait on the Lord... my soul waits... more than than the watchmen wait for the morning ... more than the watchmen wait for the morning." I think as you look at how we understand the nuts and bolts of having more than an intellectual knowledge that we have been forgiven... and i mean not something that is worked up in us but something that is communicated to us as if we had forgotten our sin and we were completely focused on God. I mean... its as if we have a longing for a peace with God that we could not satisfy on our own terms. We are actually agreeing with the Psalmist that our situation as sinners is more than just confined to a sin but we want something that looks beyond this life of sin and weakness. When we are longing like a watchmen we are following one moment to the next from one desire to another that has this element of the nearing of something that will satisfy us. I do not think that we can ultimately focus on a thing that we want unless we increase in our love and affection for that object. I mean in matters of peace with God we are dealing with a situation that is more than an expression of darkness that has settled over our souls but we have the potential to focus in the darkness of sin and sorrow for the new object of our affection in which we find peace when we find that object. Its like being drawn away from something to something that is coming and we know it!! Well we wait on the Lord!! Like a watchmen waits for the morning!! This is the eternal hope that we have because we have been forgiven by Christ but we know that in this reality that we have it is that desire for more grace that we are able to see Christ as the real hope that we have to find the morning of this darkness we long to be over come by the hope and peace. Peace shines into our hearts in the morning!! This is why the Apostle in heb talks about setting your thoughts on Jesus the apostle and finisher of our faith!!Because as recipients of grace ... in our longings we learn there is pleasure in the focus or fixing our eyes on the object of our pleasure so that we gain pleasure as we long for Him. What generates the desire? Its His eternal words to us in His revelation or its the illumination of His word... which is Him breathing new life into the deadness of our hearts. We hope in His word alone!! Now then this is the same kind of state where we experience this hope and peace like a weaned child in his mothers arms. This is when we have gotten so fixed on Christ by the Spirit and word in meditation and prayer that our souls are relaxed in our Fathers arms. Our souls have this other person to us. They are that identity that we want to experience!! Thats why we speak to our souls.. our souls are lifted up to God.. or they experience being in God in the sense of our looking at them as being lifted up as if we were standing on the outside and we were looking at ourselves in God! This is the same idea as finding peace and comfort in the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost has come down upon us. Now then forgiveness is something we look forward to in this new identity!!! Have you been so fixed on God that you cant wait to find Him in prayer the next time you meet? I mean there is a sense of frustration that you must leave to do you chores? Have you ever been so taken out in prayer that the sense of the present world around you is sooo far away? I mean... you are sitting in company but your experience of being drawn away makes you so relaxed that you feel the tension of as if you entered into a different state where everyone else lives? That is how the Psalmist views this kind of peace. 4146  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: This Kind.... on: November 11, 2009, 12:14:11 PM Let me say this i really believe that the heart of man is like deep waters. It is something that has a lot of mystery. How can a man search his heart enough to know that he knows something that may open up some area of freedom but in finding the deeper part of his experience he is met with much adversity and is made an outcast because of this revelation. If we are people who have such a deep well of mystery is it that we ignore the searching part and we just accept the level that we find around us? Well i find there is such a hard rode in this uncovering these heart issues. We are so prone to find that this struggle leads us to yrs of staleness and an avoidance of uncovering this flow of life that comes as a result of these inflamed desires that are mixed with so much potential to be sullenness and opposition. Oh man.. that feeling of a new conversion to a new uncovering of the past domination of the sensitiveness of that deep communication of this oneness in God. There is so much potential to find hurt in this life that has a force that is loaded on us who know things and see things that are so easily brought to bear on our experience!! In a sense no one will listen.. we are breaking out.. we know something that is deep and there is an answer.. but how do we expose men to this searching of these deep heart mysteries? How do we get this same inner spiritual experience into the experience of others? For everything outside of us is filled with questions and is ready to oppose what we know they are in need of . It will all end one day.. when our search of the depths of our being will be fulfilled in all of that depth. Heaven will be a connection that we could not fathom!! Remove Reply Quote Notify 4147  Forums / Main Forum / Re: what women are looking for? on: November 11, 2009, 11:01:04 AM Quote from: The G Man on November 11, 2009, 06:15:23 AM Jim and company, So are you saying that JUST because a man thinks his wife should cook and clean, it makes him an abusive husband or even a bad husband? I think that is quite some leap (A quantum leap actually!) Maybe you should wait to judge the husband until after you see what happens when she doesnt get the dinner done. Does he yell at her? Or does he volunteer to help out or order a pizza? OR Maybe he says, honey bear, I think we should go out for a nice romantic dinner. Can a man live in "leave it to beaver" land and have a sucessful and happy marriage that makes all other marriages pale in comparison? Why cant the wife enjoy her role as "woman" and be totally fine and happy with that cooking and cleaning stuff cause she knows that it puts a smile on her husbands face to come home to a clean house... You dont know what I would do in that situation now do you, so that bacically makes you a jerk for trying to guess about things when you dont have all of the facts. I agree with you... a lack of submission is an expression of barbarianism. I mean on both sides... but its also expression in communication in which we show Jesus we are serious. Like i said it will all be uncovered in the end. Jesus is the judge. He doesnt take this covenant litely. Reply Quote Notify 4148  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Personality and the Procession of the Holy Spirit G. Smeation on: November 10, 2009, 07:45:30 PM The Book of Acts, specially prepared, as we have seen, to exhibit historically the Spirit’s operations in the Church after the Lord’s ascension, contains allusions to the personal leading of the Spirit on the mind of all Christ’s servants, and in the formation of the various Churches. Thus He said to Philip, who had been directed to the way along which the chamberlain of the Ethiopian Queen was returning home: "Go near and join thyself to this chariot" (viii. 29); and after that mission was successfully accomplished, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip (viii. 39). To Peter, when the deputation from Cornelius arrived at Joppa, the Spirit said: "Behold, three men seek thee" (x. 19). When Saul of Tarsus was set apart to his great Gentile commission, which made him in a peculiar sense the apostle of the Gentiles, the Holy Ghost said to the prophets and teachers who were ministering to the Lord in the Church at Antioch: "Separate to me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them" (xiii. 2). When Paul and Timothy attempted to go into Bithynia, the Spirit suffered them not (xvi. 7). When the members constituting the council at Jerusalem gave forth the result of their deliberations for the guidance of the Churches in reference to the observance of the Jewish rites, they said: "It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us" (xv. 28) — language which could not have been used if the Holy Spirit were nothing but an influence. When He commissioned the apostles, and either directed or forbade them to do this or that according to His will, the language attests a free and sovereign agent, unless we are prepared to abandon the literal sense of words and the style of historic narrative. Fritzsche, in his learned treatise on the Spirit, 3 correctly maintains — though the treatise is unsatisfactory as a statement of ecclesiastical doctrine — that it is clear as noon-day that Scripture speaks of a Person or subsistence, not of a divine influence or energy; and the Christian Church from the beginning, notwithstanding the deflections of individuals, may be said to have asserted the Spirit’s personality, and to have based it on the Scriptures. Collecting the evidence supplied by the survey of Scripture, we may put the arguments for the personality of the Spirit under the six following heads: —     * 1. The personal actions ascribed to Him abundantly prove it (John xiv. 26; 1 Cor. xii. 11).     * 2. His distinction from the Father and the Son, and His mission from both, prove it (John xv. 26).     * 3. The co-ordinate rank and power which belong to Him equally with the Father and the Son prove it (Matt. xxviii. 19; 2 Cor. xiii. 14).     * 4. His appearance under a visible form at the baptism of Christ and on the day of Pentecost proves it.     * 5. The sin against the Holy Ghost implying a Person proves it.     * 6. The way in which He is distinguished from His gifts proves it (1 Cor. xii. 11). The glorification of the Holy Ghost in connection with the Church is still future. Passage after passage might be adduced to show that He occupies a co-ordinate rank with the other Persons. But the completion of the Church opens a vista into the future. The appearance of Christ among men ushered in a full historical revelation of the Son in word and deed; and the abasement to which He stooped was followed by an equally conspicuous exaltation. With the Holy Ghost it is not so as yet. He dwells in redeemed hearts bought with a price. He occupies a co-ordinate rank. But His work is still unseen. The personality and Deity of the Spirit are, however, one day to be displayed in conspicuous glory in connection with His work upon the Church, when He shall have completed the marvellous transformation. The final issue in the glory reflected from every redeemed and perfected saint, and from the entire body of Christ now scattered over every country, and visited from hour to hour with new communications of wisdom, grace, and power; but then seen to be united to their glorious Head, will be worthy of the divine workman who is carrying on His transforming work, and raising up a temple in which the Godhead shall dwell for ever. At present the divine personality of the Spirit is less perceptible, because it is not beheld in connection with the accomplished work. The redeemed are not yet perfect; the Church is not yet complete. There is still another stage of revelation, when the Spirit shall be glorified in connection with the work which He shall have finished and brought to its destined completeness. 4 Remove Reply Quote Notify 4149  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Praying in the Spirit on: November 10, 2009, 06:07:41 PM  I often wonder why people shoot themselves with many griefs. I mean it is enough in this life that we must face soooo many of these common to man deli mas .. it is as if we think that God is not concerned in our desire to want something that we know from our redeemed self that only He can give to us. For we do not gain any good in this life through our own efforts... we only look at the grace that will be revealed in a very short time!! This is why the feeling of being exiled and having a culture that we are not familiar with has its own grievous experience. Our tendency is to wonder if God is hiding somewhere. And these experiences are very real even tho we know in our beliefs that God doesnt hide from us. But it describes this tendency to be filled with sorrow and dread of another day. If God were really close to us then we would experience His love and His grace and we would not have all of these bad things come to us like arrows. Oh how life is soooo unfair.. i dont mean that we do not deserve one moment of satisfaction being sinners.. but we are new creatures and we have access to all of the promises that are in Christ ... for all things are yea and amen to us!! Which adds to this level of sorrow because we know how good it could be having received the Spirit at a time in the past and experienced a fresh power that we were sure was going to be growing in us by experience. And yet we come to these times where that power is sooo low and we become aware of all of the problems that we have in our world. I struggle so much with this in prayer. And i think these are special times of temptation. We are being taught by this kind of adversity ... this new kind of tension of mens hearts failing all around us to live in sort of a resignation to the fact that being dirtied beyond our own struggles we must carry this weight around. And sometimes because we do not have enough wisdom to know the forgiveness of God we even carry around our own expectations of what we should be like in our own goodness which we add to the weight that we are carrying around. This is what makes prayer so passionate. I mean we have the opportunity in these times of exile to arouse our God by calling on Him.