O God my God, what miseries and mockeries did I
now experience, when obedience to my teachers was proposed to me, as
proper in a boy, in order that in this world I might prosper, and excel
in tongue-science, which should serve to the “praise of men,” and to
deceitful riches. Next I was put to school to get learning, in which I
(poor wretch) knew not what use there was; and yet, if idle in learning,
I was beaten. For this was judged right by our forefathers; and many,
passing the same course before us, framed for us weary paths, through
which we were fain to pass; multiplying toil and grief upon the sons of
Adam. But, Lord, we found that men called upon Thee, and we learnt from
them to think of Thee (according to our powers) as of some great One,
who, though hidden from our senses, couldest hear and help us. For so I
began, as a boy, to pray to Thee, my aid and refuge; and broke the
fetters of my tongue to call on Thee, praying Thee, though small, yet
with no small earnestness, that I might not be beaten at school. And
when Thou heardest me not (not thereby giving me over to folly), my
elders, yea my very parents, who yet wished me no ill, mocked my
stripes, my then great and grievous ill. Is there, Lord, any of
soul so great, and cleaving to Thee with so intense affection (for a
sort of stupidity will in a way do it); but is there any one who, from
cleaving devoutly to Thee, is endued with so great a spirit, that he can
think as lightly of the racks and hooks and other torments (against
which, throughout all lands, men call on Thee with extreme dread),
mocking at those by whom they are feared most bitterly, as our parents
mocked the torments which we suffered in boyhood from our masters? For
we feared not our torments less; nor prayed we less to Thee to escape
them. And yet we sinned, in writing or reading or studying less than was
exacted of us. For we wanted not, O Lord, memory or capacity, whereof
Thy will gave enough for our age; but our sole delight was play; and for
this we were punished by those who yet themselves were doing the like.
But elder folks’ idleness is called “business”; that of boys, being
really the same, is punished by those elders; and none commiserates
either boys or men. For will any of sound discretion approve of my being
beaten as a boy, because, by playing a ball, I made less progress in
studies which I was to learn, only that, as a man, I might play more
unbeseemingly? and what else did he who beat me? who, if worsted in some
trifling discussion with his fellow-tutor, was more embittered and
jealous than I when beaten at ball by a play-fellow?
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: September 01, 2009, 09:52:24 PM
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This is worth another look. § 42.
Some may be ready to object against the Christian religion, that there
seem to be innumerable difficulties and inconsistencies attending it,
but that a multitude of heads have been employed for many ages, till at
length such solutions have been found out for many of them, as are in
some measure plausible. To this I answer, That as there has been a
long time to answer objections, so there has been a long time to
strengthen them. As there have been many ages to solve difficulties, so
there have been as many to find out difficulties and inconsistencies.
Besides, there has been all this time to make difficulties more plain,
and bring out inconsistencies more to the light; and by thorough and
exact consideration to make them more manifest and apparent. Time
wonderfully brings truth to light, and wears off by degrees false
colourings and disguises. The truth will always have most advantage by
time. Appearing inconsistencies, being well founded, will grow plainer
and plainer, and difficulties more and more evident. Time will discover
more circumstances to strengthen and confirm them, and so pretences of
solution will appear more and more evidently absurd and ridiculous, When
parties contend by argument and inquiry, time greatly helps that party
which has truth on its side, and weakens the contrary. It gradually
wears away the sandy foundation, and rots away the building that is not
made of substantial materials. The Christian religion has evermore, in
all ages, had its enemies, and that among learned men. Yea, it is
observable, that there have commonly been some of the most subtle of men
to scan the christian scheme, and to discover the objections that lie
against it, and have done it with a good will to overthrow it. Thus it
was in Judea, in the infancy of the church. The scribes and Pharisees,
and the wise men among the Jews, employed all their wisdom against it.
Thus, in the first ages of the church, not many wise, not many mighty,
not many noble were called. Christianity had the wisdom, learning, and
subtlety of the world to oppose it. In latter ages, how many learned and
subtle men have done their utmost against Christianity! So that the
length of time for persons to strengthen their own side in this
controversy, brought as an objection against Christianity, is much more
an argument for it, than an objection against it. J. Edwards
Beacon
and Murray. . . and especially B. If God makes us perfect , then you
are saying that when we sin we are subject to the curse of the law as
being treated according to our sins. ("Primarily, because we love
God and do not want to abuse His Grace, but also because our bad choices
bring undesirable consequences for us and those we love, not to
mention sometimes other people as well. ") And you said that this
is the reason that we do not want to sin. This is something that i
want to encourage you with in thinking the rite way. If God is gracious
to make us clean of all of our sins then He is gracious to not treat us
according to our sins. Grace goes both ways . And this not treating
us according to our sins is the reason that we come to Him with our
sins. God is perfect and we are not. Looking at the way His grace
works is the way we are taught to know Him. We are not taught by any
kind of ability that we have in not sinning or in doing good. We are
taught by His perfect power according to His holy will. We say that
this is the enabling of an unworthy offense repeater. Our confidence is
not in our own moral code or our looking to our own obedience. We
learn the lessons of God by being taught about His name through His
enabling power to make us holy.
God does not make men perfect
and then treat them as if they go outside the house when they sin. I
agree with you that our sin has been completely taken care of . I agree
that the punishment of our sins was place upon Christ and He bore our
punishment. But when we describe the kind of trust we are to have as a
result of all of this is where Beacon and I are not on the same page.
Actually,
we are perfect. Hebrews 10:14 says, "For by one sacrifice, He has
perfected forever those who are being sanctified. " I love Hebrews 10.
It's talking about the Levitical sacrifices of the Old Covenant. These
sacrifices could, in absolutely no way, perfect the Jews. Why? Because
they went back every year to do it over and over and over again.
However, Jesus' death and resurrection was ONCE for ALL. It talks in
Romans 5 about our justification of life through Jesus. Biblically, to
justify means to make innocent. How could God see us as innocent if we
are still guilty of sin? God's math is 1=all. All were in Adam,
and all became sinners, regardless of their actions. So if all are not
in Jesus in becoming righteous regardless of their actions, then you are
saying the work Satan did in Adam in the Garden has more merit than the
work God did in Jesus on the cross. This revelation of who you are in Christ will change your life. You are FREE.
Welcome
Natalie... yes i just want to be as honest as i can about this. I think
if we all as Christians presented to the world that we are perfect then
that would not be fair.Cause in all honesty we share with them in doing
the same things as they do. What makes us different is not
intrinsically natural in us as a measuring stick to the world. What is
difference is that we belong to someone who is not us. We have Jesus,
and He is in heaven as our mediator and high priest who has secured for
us eternal salvation. If we say that we are perfect then everyone else
is going to look at us like what is that? But if we say that Jesus is
perfect and we are accepted because He was accepted then we can present
something that will not get us in trouble with them.
mBG: I think you've taken what we're saying out of context a little. I guess you're refering to when Beacon said;
"Must
add that the consequences of bad choices for a child of God are
temporary, meaning they only affect us while we are on this earth. They
do not affect our eternal status which is sealed at the time we are
born again of God's Spirit."
Thats a fact. Well, another fact and
testimony to God's grace is that we are still blessed. I'm not sure you
didn't just assume that Beacon was saying that we're still punished,
but that sort of goes without saying. Yeah, we still suffer the
consequences according to the law of the land, and the authority we're
under.. but that doesn't make it a sin, nor do we face an angry God. God
is love, therefore we will always receive an out pouring of love.
Whether we choose to receive it or not is a completely different story.
Most
people are deceived in that they pressume (because they don't know) God
is automatically pissed at them. That is the prime example of a
religious mind set. We call 'em "Churched."
You'd be surprised
how eager some people are to find out that God actually love them. You'd
be even more suprised at how many Christians don't recieve that.
The
body of Christ, for the most part, is brainwashed. And it's our
responsibility to wake them up, because we have some VERY curious, and
interesting days ahead. In my personal opinion, everyone needs to be
walking in the super natrual, and operating in the spiritual gifts.
That, though, is an entirely different and relevant conversation in
itself.
Let me apologize also in advance if my post come off a
little uncompassionate, or heated. I just have a fervant desire to get
this word out there. I promise that I wouldn't want to have this
conversation elsewhere. I've been on and off this forum for over a year
now, and you all are AWESOME men and women of God. So thank you for
being so welcoming! In short: I love you all!
Thanks
Murray, as Steve says we are all beggars telling other beggars where to
find the bread. I just hope that in my suffering i can get lower not to
suffer like the apostle Paul but to pass on His suffering on our behalf.
I just want to encourage others with as little of my own ideas as i can
possibly present. I hope to pass His word on to you and others as being
underneath.
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4378
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why should I be sorry for my sin? What does it do to God?
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on: August 31, 2009, 10:07:14 PM
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Chad i think the curse of sin has been taken
care of tho. I mean, i understand what you are saying... if you put your
hand on a hot stove its going to burn.... but i do not think that we
can avoid sin in the sense that there is going to be some chaff that
will be burned up. Its those sins that we failed to address in a perfect
fashion. If you look at Davids life.. he had a personal response from
God to the sin of adultery and murder. But then you come into the new
testament and you find the apostle Paul who ravaged the church by
stoning and sword. And yet after Paul had the vision on the road to
Damascas... He said that he did not have the blood of other men on His
hands. I think it was quadruple what David did.
Which brings me back
to the doctrine of double predestination. I think the rules change when
we play fast and loose with this doctrine. I have heard preachers say
the message as if there could be enough growth that in a sense they go
outside the bible to create a straw man. We know that those who receive
the just rewards for sin are the reprobate and that these things were
determined before the foundation of the world. When we argue that sin is
the big enemy and there is a cavalier attitude about finding the
redeeming value in the value of an apostle Paul who was the apostle of
grace ... i must say that listening to some of these messages where they
have created a straw man.... i find my comfort from the horses mouth.
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