4807	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question	on: June 15, 2009, 04:13:05 PM
OK Beacon here it is  First of all in order for man to be saved he must understand that he is dead in his sins and trespasses... its not just that he feels guilty for his sins.. or that he is convinced that he is a sinner.. but that he has no ability to come to God even if he perhaps should gain something from God because he is a sinner... but that he has nothing to stand on... he must come without any thing to present to God...a man must come as he is...dead in sins... and the only hope is that God would grant him salvation. Then he must realize that God is not required to grant him salvation ... but that the only reason for God to save him is out of His own free grace and not in any thing a man wants for himself. God grants salvation according to His pleasure and not according to anything in the object. There are no conditions to earn Gods favor... its in Gods will alone... The the man must realize that in believing in Christ that he must place his trust in Christ alone... because Christ earned salvation at the cross and had no one good enough or able enough to be worthy of believing in. A man must be convinced that Christ is his only hope in this life... there is no other way... there is no other supreme love... Christ is all in all. The only way a man can place his trust in this Christ is to see that Christ went to the cross for this man in a personal way... in the past in the event of the cross and obtained salvation before the man was ever born so that Christ earned salvation from eternity and in seeing this then the man will see that Christ is his only hope in this life of having eternal life... that is Christ entrance into heaven guarantees his entrance. That Christ chose to go to the cross for him personally. Then he must see that there is nothing he could do to obtain this grace... but that the man was unable to believe until by grace God granted the man repentance and faith... and the only way that a man can believe is if Christ makes him able in the future.... a man must be convinced that unless grace is a pre determiner of every thing the man does then that man cannot possibly perform one good  thing!! Then the man must see that there is only one way he is going to get salvation after this life and that is because Christ has has fulfilled the law in every way... that Christ has already been worthy of bringing His own to the final salvation.. that there is no way this man is going to be worthy of salvation apart from Christ... and in seeing this then man places all of his future confidence in his salvation in Christ... he comes to heaven with no plea on his own.
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4808  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Tolstoy got it right on: June 15, 2009, 03:37:45 PM Quote from: beefy on June 13, 2009, 05:39:36 AM Quote God commanded the genocide of entire populations.   .   .   .   how do you reconcile that with what Jesus says?  Here, I will show you.   Although God (Jesus) does remain the "same yesterday, today, and forever," Hebrews 13:8, His commands to His people have changed over time.    What many choose to cite in order to justify war are the Jewish wars of the Old Testament .    What is wrong with this approach is that the ancient Israelites were men living under the Old Covenant.    Under this old covenant, the Jews were permitted to own slaves, kill women and children, and all sorts of terrible atrocoties to mankind.    But God gave them permission to do so, and He physically spoke to them on many occassions.   Under the New Covenant, however, the rules have changed, and the Old Covenant has been made obsolete.   "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.   " Hebrews 8:6 From the International Standard Version: The New Covenant is Better Than the Old "7For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one.    8But God found something wrong with his peoplewhen he said, “Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.    9It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the timewhen I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt.    Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant,I ignored them, declares the Lord.   10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts.   I will be their God, and they will be my people.   11Never again will everyone teach his neighbor or his brother by saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because all of them will know me, from the least important to the most important.   12For I will be merciful regarding their wrong deeds, and I will never again remember their sins.   ” 13In speaking of a “new” covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.   " Hebrews 8:7-13 In the King James version, it says the Old Covenant has aged and "vanished away.   " You see? The Old Testament doctrine has been made obsolete, including the "eye for an eye" doctrine.   Don't confuse the ancient Jews with Christians.    The Jews were not Christians, thus they followed the Old Covenant.    That is what the "Old Testament" means, "Old Covenant.   " Christians follow the "New Testament", which means "New Covenant.   " You follow the New Covenant.   Don't get me wrong though.    Jesus still upheld the Ten Commandments, on numerous occassions.    But He said the greatest commandment was to love God, and to love your neighbor.    The terrorists are our neighbors too, as evidenced when Jesus said "Love your enemy.   " Quote You'll notice they never forged them into plow shares.  .  .  you'll also notice Jesus said "that is enough", not " you don't need those" or " violence isn't nessecary", he said "those are enough".  .  .  You cannot force God into a box friend, He will destroy it every time.  And about those swords.   .   .   From "A Practical Christian Pacifism.   " You misunderstand the context of Jesus' disciples buying swords.   From "A Practical Christian Pacifism:" What About Jesus' Command to Buy a Sword? Some would argue that Luke 22:36-38 justifies joining an organization of the world whose purpose it is to "defend" a nation by killing those which it views as politically opposing it.    The verse says the following, "Then He [jesus] said to them [His disciples], 'But now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one.    For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.   ' For the things concerning Me have an end.   ' So they said, 'Lord, look, here are two swords.   ' And He said to them; 'It is enough.   '" Let us agree upon what these verses do plainly teach.    First, clearly Jesus does say that his disciples could have swords, and in fact He does command them to buy a sword.    However Jesus gives us the reason he gave that command.    He says, "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.   '" So, what Jesus is saying is that he must be numbered with the transgressors, so he says in effect, 'go ahead and buy swords so that you will be considered rebels-insurrectionists-transgressors when the religious leaders come toarrest me'.    In this way, Jesus will fulfill the prophesy about Messiah being numbered with the transgressors.    It is that simple and this fits the context of that passage the best.   The most important principle in properly interpreting the scripture is context and cross reference with other scripture.    The context of this passage is NOT some political statement, nor some statement about defending a nation.    Rather, it is a statement about Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophesy about being numbered with transgressors.    When other's want to kill us for loving the Lord Jesus, then we allow them to send us Home, for to be with our Father is our heart's desire.   Saying that the twelve disciples were commanded to defend themselves with only two swords that they found is wrong.    They could not possibly do much defending with only two swords for twelve men.   You can ignore the second part of the verse you cite if you want.    It doesn't change that Jesus refers to the prophecy immidiately follwing this command.   "Then He [jesus] said to them [His disciples], 'But now he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one.    For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.   '" Luke 22:36-38 Don't ignore the reason Jesus gave the command in the first place.    For what other reason could Jesus have referenced prophecy right after saying this? Is the second verse to be disregarded? Have you forgotten what Jesus said to His disciples when they actually tried to use those said swords? Listen to Jesus when he said, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.  " Mattthew 26:52 And as you have voiced, you clearly do not want your sons and daughters in the militray to perish by the sword, do you? And, in case you have forgotten, Jesus the man never killed anyone, and neither did His twleve disciples.   You shouldn't either, as a Christian, a disciple of Christ.   So clearly Jesus would not use "any means necessary" to protect the child.   He didn't even defend Himself, and he rebuked Peter for even using the sword in self-defense.   Nor did He come to the aid of His very own disciples when they were crucified, hanged, and burned at the stake for His sake.  And, as a Christian, you are to imitate those disciples, and Jesus, following their example.   1 Corinthians 11:1, "Imitate me as I imitate Christ. " If you refuse to obey Jesus' command to "love your enemy," and "do good to those who hate you," then that is your problem.  But only those who really love Jesus will follow His commands.  "If ye love me, keep my commandments.  " John 14:15 And Jesus commanded you to do good to and love your enemies, those who hate you.   And killing them is not doing them good nor is it showing them love.  What you propose is such a blatant disobedience to Christ that I can't hardly stand it.  If you have a narrative in any portion of scripture then you got to look at the context of which the statement is about which you are presenting the meaning of the truth... Jesus  was saying that its not time to start a revolution... i mean in our understanding of insurrection... He told Peter that Satan was speaking through Peter when Peter tried to prevent Him from going to the cross... cause any one who confused this issue would not really understand the spiritual significance of His battle with Satan... But in other portions of scripture it is perfectly ligament to protect oneself... ones family and at times to identify the person in the world ... who is causing the trouble and to wish for God to remove the problem.... i dont think you can make a dogmatic statement since we live in a world that is full of threats and violence... and the scripture does not have a contradiction... why should we create one? Reply Quote Notify

4809  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: June 14, 2009, 05:44:06 PM The bible is very difficult to interpret... its really impossible to understand... thats why we have the Holy Spirit. If the bible was just a book written by a bunch of men ... about 40 of them all spreading over a 2500 yrs and you have all of this different forms of language from poetry , narrative.. to doctrinal... with the use of language that describes all of these different ideas... some as describing mysteries and yet if a men would have put it together the best novel ever written would not even come close in its cohesiveness and insight... any person who gives it a good read is going to conclude that there is nothing in literature that comes close. And just like anything that is to be understood... like your understanding of your occupation... it takes work.. and the more you do the work the more you are going to find new ways to do something. The more you understand anything the more detailed you are going to be able to explain it. Well its the same thing with the hermeneutics and exegesis of scripture. What scientist would determine that something would be true if he did not use his interpretative skills to investigate? Well the bible has a science of interpretation. The ones who are skilled in biblical interpretation are the ones who hold the weight of the meaning. The real meaning of life is in the meaning of the text. God is the God of written communication that involves His decreeing things to pass as He explains Himself in His written word. The more the focus and detail of the truth comes to light the more there is going to be the reality of all that exist in time. Reply Quote Notify

4810  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 14, 2009, 03:53:42 PM Quote from: beacon2 on June 14, 2009, 03:37:07 PM Quote from: billbennett on June 13, 2009, 05:36:04 PM Beacon, It was truely a great experience for a new Christian. I spend about 10 years in that congreation and was greatly blessed. If you are interested, come of the sermons from Romans and Galations are posted at NapClark.com and this will give you a flavor of what these times were like. Thanks Bill! I took a quick look at Clark's website and read that he had been a pastor at Immanuel Baptist Church for 19 years.  Is that the church where the revival started? Quote from: billbennett on June 13, 2009, 05:36:04 PM For me the critical issue has always been grace, that we are  saved through the undeserved, unmerited favor of God when we trust Christ as our personal savior. The gospel, as defined in I Cor. 15 is that Christ died for our sins according to the sciptures and rose again. What I see that troubles me among even Bible-believing Christians is a mixture of grace and works, often confusing following Christ as a disciple with receiving the free gift of eternal life by faith. This is another topic for another time. It's been the same for me Bill.  Ever since the Lord opened my eyes to His grace, it really bothers me that many believers, dear people who love the Lord, are still not enjoying freedom and rest in Him because they are under bondage to the law. Quote from: billbennett on June 13, 2009, 05:36:04 PM But it is my firm belief in God's grace, as well as the leading of the Spirit, and the friendship of Tom (MBG), that has lead me to read many of the Reformed writers. I think it is important to be able to recieve truth from those who you may no agree on certain non-essentials. This is where we must test all things and hold on to that which is good, advise I give to anyone who listens to my feeble attempts to teach God's word. Yes, I also think that we can receive truth from others even when we do not agree with them on certain non-essentials.  Several years ago, I listened quite often on the radio to a very well-known reformed teacher's sermons.  This pastor is a great scholar, and I especially liked his knowledge regarding church history . I admire this pastor for his intellect, wit, knowledge of the bible, teaching ability, etc.,  but it always puzzled me, and still does, that in spite of all that, he is mistaken in his belief on the extent of Christ's atonement.  Now, the extent of the atonement is not a non-essential part of the gospel.  That Christ's sacrifice was applied to all is  the very core of what  the gospel is based on.  Therefore, I part company with reformed doctrine on this. Something interesting to relate here is that while I listened to that pastor's messages I used to pray for him, and I remember often wishing that I could sit down with that pastor and discuss with him what the bible really teaches about the extent of Christ's sacrifice. Well, the Lord,  knowing the desire of my heart regarding this, did something slightly different.  Within a short period of time, He arranged it so that I could speak about His true gospel to a member of the pastor's staff and also to a member of his congregation. Very providentially,    my contact with the staff member happened when I got a phone call asking for my support of the pastor's ministry.  I politely  explained why I really could not bring myselft to support the ministry--differences in undertanding of the gospel-- which led to a good and long discussion on the subject. Again very providentially,  my contact with the member of the pastor's congregation came through different circumstances.  I had bought a digital camera and hadn't had it long when it broke down. I called the 800 number and got a very helpul technician at the other end of the line. To this day, I can't remember what exactly it was that turned our conversation from my camera to the Lord.   But in the course of a very long conversation, it came out that this man was attending the reformed pastor's church and was very dissatisfied there.  He acknowledged that the pastor was a very learned man, but he (the technician) felt that he was not being fed. Talk about an open door to talk about the grace of God!  and I took it! This man was so hungry! He readily welcomed the Word of God! Towards the end of our conversation the man related to me that he had been asking the Lord for guidance and asked me to pray for him and his wife.  Our providential encounter and the names of him and his wife are recorded in my journal.  Our God is an awesome God!  beacon2 Psalm 115  1 Not to us, O LORD, not to us        but to your name be the glory,        because of your love and faithfulness. I am so glad salvation is in God alone! He willed it... performed it and won it .. and is keeping it... because there really is no lasting love except His love... limited atonement gives me reason to rejoice in is love and faithful ness alone... if it wasnt limited then it would be a cause to trust in another love and faithfulness... its a matter of dependability...its not of us because of His love. He loves us too much to ruin it.... i can deal with the differences.... Reply Quote Notify

4811	Members Only / Purgatory / Re: It is about us... our relationships	on: June 14, 2009, 02:55:58 PM
The danger is learning the art of compromising. Because compromising on doctrinal issues is going to bring a certain lethargic spirit in the cause of change. I dont believe that a real understanding of compromising on a behavior is understood until there is a strict adherence to doctrinal preciseness. We are made to argue at some level in our christian walk...this is the mode of change. The cause of being in this spiritual awakened state is to be dogmatic and repetitious in guarding the ground of this single focus... the more we find it come into focus the more we are going  to go from a state of lethargic longing to a reality of sustenance and growth in this change. As i have said that it is very important for us when we are in a possible situation where we are promised to have peace but only requiring that we compromise that we hold fast to our stated focus. It is equally true that those who want to compromise doctrine will end up over focusing on the behavior. As i have stated that there is no one person on this earth that does not have a cause to practice a behavior as a general focus in finding a stated goal as a way to have assurance in this art of wrestling. But the danger is that we will be hitting the air and we will lose our focus.  The ways of peace are always in this single focus... i mean that we are always under some temptation to think that grace would be better served if we formed our own path to Christ.... so that the experience of being insecure in our desire to keep to the path is from the paradigm of the simplicity of the focus.Because  we are always gaining knowledge under the illusion that it will make us more attractive in how we are viewed in the society of others.... i mean this is how we know that we have developed true lasting longings in any given situation as opposed to finding pleasure in the acceptance of compromise... we are always thinking that if we are to do something that we have learned that it will present us with a new level of understanding but as i have been saying that there is no insecure way to obtain the stated goal... we must keep to the sure way... and one act of obedience comes and goes. So we must see that we live before God as in need of certain desires that are lasting. We are not going to grow in the desire to do something that will not keep us on the focus... it will confuse our minds... we will become men please rs... the only lasting change is in our lives not being divided up with different focuses. We are in situations as ones who are what we think.. and nothing determines to change our view by that focus... it will be a time and then it will be fleeting. This is why repetition is what causes us to be in control of our circumstances since we never lose site of the goal of being more like Him.      4813  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: June 14, 2009, 01:42:20 PM OK its time to revisit this doctrine of justification... since we are declared righteous in the court of heaven then this is a past event with no relation to our own righteousness... so that the declaration of righteousness is our only hope of our acceptance. This foreign righteousness is not in any way a declaration that makes us inherently righteous.. because this righteousness is the righteousness of Christ... and when we have His righteousness imputed to our account it does not mean that we present our ability in obeying in order to be rewarded.... let me say that if we had any share in being personally accountable for the praise worthiness of this obedience of Christ... it would be a travesty on the standard by which we understand law keeping!!!!! Now then how are we going to present ourselves without shame... i mean without deceit? It is only... let me say... may this never be ... even in our thinking that we are progressing ... it is never in our prayers... our scripture reading .. our church going... our keeping ourselves from certain sins ... and our repenting!!!!!!!!!! not a one of these actions cause our lack of deceit. the deceit is approaching the throne of grace with our own pride.. our own ability!!!!! Listen to me... a believer is one who has been forgiven by grace... now then... this position is being translated from a state of animosity to Christ to a completed state of peace!! We do not obtain forgiveness by our confession!!!! We confess our sins because we are in a state of grace... no more hiding cause Christ has already taken on the whole shebang!!!! This righteousness is a foreign righteousness that will be pleaded for us on the day of judgment!!!!The reason that we will be rewarded is because we are seen as being righteous by this foreign righteousness... read the fathers on this... read Owen..  Deceit is seen in two kinds of people.. and both are of the same family just opposite extremes... both are of the chaff.. both are the have not s of this peace... one is the foolish unbeliever and the other is the self righteous unbeliever. One is a scoffer to Christ .. and the other one thinks that truth is obtained by his own behavior..... one never has a thought of God... the other one thinks that God is not looking. Look... psalm 32 is not talking about fellowship and non fellowship!!! its talking about a fundamental difference in the two states of the human race... check out the last verse and vs 10...its a parallelism to the entire Psalm!!!!!!!! Yea really... like Westley really understood this... give me a break... Read Jones on Westley ...  I will explain this whole doctrine of sin and the weight of sin as it is seen in the righteous.... Owen on confronting those who argue that imputed righteousness does not put us in a guiltless state...."This exception, therefore, might be dismissed without farther answer than what is given us in the known rule, that a truth well established and confirmed is not to be questioned, much less relinquished, on every entangling sophism, though it should appear insoluble; but, as we shall see, there is no such difficulty in these arguing s but what may easily be discussed." Reply Quote Notify 4814  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Universalism: Definding the unbeliever at the expense of the Sheep on: June 14, 2009, 09:15:12 AM Man this is like a broken record... but i guess its what i need to do... when God is talking to Moses and He is telling Moses that he will not enter the promise land ... God is talking to the leader of Israel. Now the problem with Moses was the he had a sin as a leader that represented the entire nation of Israel. The promise to not enter were directed at those who did not know the ways of God.... ok... DID NOT KNOW THE WAYS OF GOD! Obviously Moses knew the ways of God...read the first few chapts. in the book of Hebrews... Moses is a faithful... uh... a type of Christ... over the OT church.... ok ... go ahead and cut it off cause there aint no more Moses es ... he is one of a kind!!!! and just because Moses and the remnant did not enter the promise land because of the .... Oh please ... this is the devils doctrine > UNBELIEF. Now it is always part of the history of Israel that the remnant was subjected to the punishment of the sins of the unbelieving Israel... ok... i am getting tired of this... YOU CALVINIST ... READ MY THREAD ON ROM. 11 FROM J. CALVIN!!!!!!!!!!!! Moses along with the faithful ... the men of faith in Hebrews... What SIN? Were translated into an eternal rest... give me a freaken break please someone. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4815  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 14, 2009, 08:55:09 AM Bill i am more of a sovereign grace guy than i am practical epistemological ist . I believe that Satan destroys a persons faith because of a lack of understanding of his methods. The biggest temptation ... i mean ...its the ultimate source of anxiety is the idea that when you have begun in the Spirit .... then you are trying to perfect the christian life in the flesh.  In other words Satan is a great salesmen who tries to at one point simplify the christian life into a religious works system. But he sells it as becoming holy.... now Satan loves to make people think that they can become holy in themselves. One of the first principles in Satans hand book is the principle of mocking. I think proverbs talks about a religious man who mocks at other peoples behavior. Satan does not come as an angel of light in a personal splendor... he comes with his people. He has trained his people to mirror the behavior of a christian with a rule book. I know you like basketball... and you know there is a difference between following the disciplines and understanding strategy. I mean... disciplines do not always win the game in the end.... but is understanding the flow of the game. Its knowing who is playing well.. who is matched up on who.... and being aware of the mis matches on height. And then there is the element of who has a strong constitution as a natural leader... so that all of these qualities are learned from relationship and not out of the discipline manual. Well Satan is trying to get you to follow the manual of  the 5 things and forget the glory of who is to be praised. He wants us to find our success in the finals in the disciplines and not in our intuitive skills and personal communications. In this way we are taught not to have an original strategy but we are programed like robots...then when we lose its back to the disciplines.  The first order of Satan is to accuse. In other words he works on the conscience through the people who sell their particular brand of religion... the way Satan does this is to teach a doctrine and confuse grace and works. But he must attract someone in some way... as he did with Luther... so that they focus on all the second causes and forget the purpose of their lives. Man is forever self inflicting with methods and foolish anxiety in responding to this inward mocking. And Satan is the master of turning men away from the Spirits work of grace. But when Satan attacks its always exactly what we are struggling with... its always the truth about our sin... and its always not meant to give us a fatal wound... its meant to get us to turn our eyes away from the cross and on to a mans doctrine. He kills men slowly with the religion of works. He drives men away from the forgiveness that is in Christ. 4816  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: June 13, 2009, 09:49:57 PM We are much worse than we think we are... and we are also incomplete in our assessments of our condition in light of how God is working in us to will and to do. Now then our understanding of all of these things is mainly through our physical senses.. what we see mainly. Well this world has invisible realities that are much greater than we could fathom... so that we not only experience somewhat of a power in human nature but these invisible powers influence us in a rather  mysterious way if we were to have our physical eyes opened to the brightness .. the color... the clearness of this other realm. And even tho we do not have a clear understanding yet in this somewhat dark view of the glory as it is surrounding us there is an image that we are taught as a matter of strengthening our faith or expanding our spiritual senses in training them through this kind of glorious greatness as we look at some of the descriptions in divine revelation. If we are to seek for God.. the living God then we are going to find that we are swallowed up in the light of His presence!!!  Now then this is a most pleasurable image of Gods greatness.. and i would say it is a real experience ... that is our physical senses are engaged in this eternal image or longing to see the greatness of His presence descend upon us by His Spirit because when we draw near to God He will draw near to us... i mean this awe that comes from all of the invisible movements that happen in us... Now then this is the reality of this spiritual universe... i mean ... if we have fellowship with the Father then in some ways we are being affected in a mysterious way by the brightness of His glory... the presence of God... or as we see that there is this divine stream of glory described as the Holy Spirit teaches us to to have our senses renewed... that is it is being poured out like a stream of water from the throne of God and it is springing up in us as a fountain... now then it is all tied to this brightness of His glory or this turning the light on in our spiritual eyes so that we are experiencing this nearness of Gods presence... now then we will see that we are much worse by it... in having this kind of experience of being swallowed up. If you were to memorize the Psalms and then you were to begin to call on Him... and then you have this desperate longing that He is working in you... i mean this is not something that you create ... its something that the glory produces in you... its an attraction then by this stream you are going to find this experience of the light of His glory... it does produce many big events.. through out history...i mean in His control over the elements.... Reply Quote Notify 4817  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Do we sin because we don't love God enough? on: June 13, 2009, 09:43:09 PM We are much worse than we think we are... and we are also incomplete in our assessments of our condition in light of how God is working in us to will and to do. Now then our understanding of all of these things is mainly through our physical senses.. what we see mainly. Well this world has invisible realities that are much greater than we could fathom... so that we not only experience somewhat of a power in human nature but these invisible powers influence us in a rather  mysterious way if we were to have our physical eyes opened to the brightness .. the color... the clearness of this other realm. And even tho we do not have a clear understanding yet in this somewhat dark view of the glory as it is surrounding us there is an image that we are taught as a matter of strengthening our faith or expanding our spiritual senses in training them through this kind of glorious greatness as we look at some of the descriptions in divine revelation. If we are to seek for God.. the living God then we are going to find that we are swallowed up in the light of His presence!!!  Now then this is a most pleasurable image of Gods greatness.. and i would say it is a real experience ... that is our physical senses are engaged in this eternal image or longing to see the greatness of His presence descend upon us by His Spirit because when we draw near to God He will draw near to us... i mean this awe that comes from all of the invisible movements that happen in us... Now then this is the reality of this spiritual universe... i mean ... if we have fellowship with the Father then in some ways we are being affected in a mysterious way by the brightness of His glory... the presence of God... or as we see that there is this divine stream of glory described as the Holy Spirit teaches us to to have our senses renewed... that is it is being poured out like a stream of water from the throne of God and it is springing up in us as a fountain... now then it is all tied to this brightness of His glory or this turning the light on in our spiritual eyes so that we are experiencing this nearness of Gods presence... now then we will see that we are much worse by it... in having this kind of experience of being swallowed up.  4823  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Sloth on: June 13, 2009, 03:47:18 AM Yes i hear you TB... i dont think we understand how our opinions of others and what we say about them is more important than how we appear to be in our personal lives. I believe that we can determine the direction of someones life by giving other people an impression of them more than what the person does to prove his worthiness. But God is not like this.... He empowers us for whatever service that He wants us to do. He doesnt have any opposition... man on the other hand will make a mountain out of a mole hill and cause much harm.... this is why Jesus condemned the Pharisees... those religious leaders...they put heavy burdens on the people... the reason was that they did not see their responsibility to carry another persons burdens and in not seeing that ...then... man is always one better by his view of himself than the other guy. Jesus was always in prayer because He faced so much opposition that He was forced to focus on our Fathers will in prayer. Just think that Jesus had the power to do what ever He wanted... to be the greatest tent maker or whatever occupation... He laid that down to carry the burdens of all mankind. I think we are going to shocked at what kind of rewards are going to be given in the next life... they will be the rewards of a life lived by faith. Reply Quote Notify 4824  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Do we sin because we don't love God enough? on: June 13, 2009, 03:05:36 AM http://highlandbiblechurch.org/sermons.html This is an excellent study on love.  What Christ s  coming should mean to us. Reply Quote Notify 4825  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: holiness on: June 12, 2009, 07:23:31 PM http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=611092333292  Wow.... this is worth listening to a number of times. Reply Quote Notify 4826  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 12, 2009, 04:46:31 PM Quote from: billbennett on June 12, 2009, 04:23:25 PM Beacon, It is interesting to consider that by far the majority of great revivals have originated in churches of the reformed faith. And even today, some of the churches really making a difference are the conservative PCA congregations; in most areas the most faithful churches to God's word and the gospel. And if they say they preach the gospel to everyone out of obedience to Christ's command to do so, that cool with me. At least they preach salvation by grace and not works. And I have found that the doctrine of limited atonement is not universally held, even among those who are reformed.  Thanks Bill ... let me say this about limited atonement and in response to Beacon... i think it has a flavor and a general attitude to bible exposition.... in this sense it does have an effect on a persons understanding of grace... as you know Bill.. i mean... even tho we disagree I still have great respect for you theology of revival... i mean how many people have experience a revival in a community setting?  But since we  believe that all Fatherly relationship is vital in our understanding of assurance then our understanding of that security is expressed in the paradigm of His distinct communication from eternity. I guess it even affects our general understanding of the physiological norms are communicated to us in this matter of grace.... i know that most of us dont like to feel as if these things are beyond our ability... but the truth is that we are not just struggle rs but we go from being unable to being able... a good example is how much of an ability that came as a result of revival that was a stark contrast in that power not numbers to effect the ongoing ability to produce these ministers.... this is the concept that is taught to us in limited atonement... it is the jewel of our Fathers direct expression of a real supernatural relationship expressed in His will  alone in His Son and by the will of the Son and the Spirit.... this is not just psychologically argued to us but it is truly a supernatural transforming power.  Reply Quote Notify 4827  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 12, 2009, 04:22:03 PM Quote from: billbennett on June 12, 2009, 04:10:50 PM Tom, Now here is something I heartily agree with. We cannot change the gospel message regardless of so-called "success" of the outreach endeavor. It is possible to manipulate or use scare tactics, especially with children, and produce what some term visible signs of success. In our Christian culture today, success is often gauged by the money raised, decisions recorded ect. And at the same time sound doctrine is devalued, because as some would say "doctrine divides". Also on revival, you know that is my prayer as well. Beacon, I have shared with MBG about as a young believer being in a small Baptist church when God sent revival. This was during the mid-late 70s just after the Vietnam war. Over the period of 3-5 years or so, countless young people were saved and almost 100 went into full-time ministry, many still serving as pastors, missionaries ect. around the world. Interestingly enough, the style of worship was that of the expository teaching of Gods word, coupled with the old hymns of the reformation. This small congregation grew to be considered as one of the historical churches of the Free Grace Theology movement. What a great place for a new believer in Christ to be discipled in the faith. Bill This is excellent.. thanks Bill... Reply Quote Notify 4828  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Universalism: Definding the unbeliever at the expense of the Sheep on: June 12, 2009, 04:14:24 PM The bible is not a full revelation of the will of God... and  there are reasons... one of which is that God only gives us what He knows will produce in us that for which he has designed us to be. I think this is part of His hemming us in from around... the idea is that we could by many temptations fall into all kinds of snares and traps. I do believe that there is a line in which we cross in which the world becomes a source of temptation or a cause of a direction that we find to bring us a constant friction. This is why a goal of someone could be a source of a life long fulfillment of lust and a mis application of a rite desire and a covetous practice. Its just as dangerous for us to not know what is rite as it is for us to cross the line into worldliness. Because the world is going in a direction... i mean the way it orders our lives. Why do marriages end ... because people are exposing themselves to temptations that they entertain by the over exposure by walking in the path of the world. And this is a direct result of the waywardness of the community of the saints. When we believe a doctrine that is not orthodox then we encourage the practice of walking in the path of the world. And i would suggest that this is  kind of like creating a society of religious people who mirror the organized institutions of the world. I guess that we have crossed this line because of the desire for us to not experience this hemming in effect of the ways of God. It is a confusion of the purposes of God as they relate to how He develops a world view in His people. The institution of the family and the ways in the order of the creation ordinance are these designs to keep us from venturing out into temptations that force the worlds system on these distinct values in our understanding by our motives and the communication within this the window of this ordinance... when someone entertains a course that they put themselves in physically they entertain a pattern of thinking. This is the source of all conflict as it relates to the creation ordinance. This is why i am arguing for the return of the old patterns of marital fidelity.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 4829  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 12, 2009, 03:29:52 PM No i am in favor of missions.... but success does not mean its done properly. I think the purpose of missions is to show the ways of God. I dont think its defined by all of these second causes. God is able to send whom ever He wants to where ever He wants... God doesnt need a political campaign. Our view of missions is our view of God. The first priority is to preach the original and historical message passed down by the fathers.  And it doesnt matter if it is successful or not... what matters is the pure gospel. In order for there to be a kind of taking spiritual territory... there needs to be a focus on prayer...Missions is all about Gods progress in the spread of the effects of the gospel as well as the march toward the last convert. In order for the gospel to flourish  then... there needs to be the proper teaching.. or in our historical denom... catechizing. I know the WCF and the LBC in detail. And when i explain anything it is usually strait from the horses mouth so to speak... Just like Spurgeon who enjoyed a flourishing and a revival of religion in the early part of his ministry... and then the apostasy of the church in their doctrinal positions in the latter part of his ministry... yet the spread of the gospel took second place to his defense of the doctrines of grace. In other words he was not afraid to offend those who opposed him  in a kind of positive looking  movement and a unity of including many different positions of other denoms. In order to move into any area of false teaching and apostasy.. as well as distressed cities the only lasting salvific flourishing is when the spiritual forces of evil are brought under the power of the gospel... and that is done through teaching doctrine and prayer... the sacraments. But it is predominately prayer. I do not think there is any short cuts in a true work of the Spirit in the spread of churches. The end for all evangelism is to see revival.... and the means to obtain that end is in the means God has given in the church.  Revival will never come until people have a desperation that drives them to pray and out of that to see  the glory of God manifested in a real change in that society. When was the last time we had a revival? That will kind of tell where we are in relation to what Spurgeon had to deal with.  I too have been heavily involved in non profit ministry for yrs in the past and not so much now.... i think its a great tool. Reply Quote Notify 4830  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 12, 2009, 01:13:19 PM Man i feel like i am not getting along here... i know beacon believes in universal justification.... that is a stiff dead man who is given more than he deserves... its kind of hard to look as someone in a coffin and conclude that there is the righteousness of Christ running through those veins so to speak... He may condemn men who stand in their sins... i think in heb He swears an oath... but His word is as sure to bring pardon... so that whatever pot He decides to make into a new vessel of honor... that He does in His definitive sanctification... i mean it really isnt even in our understanding that He is working in us.. but its in His decree from eternity... Thank God that He has already accomplished this through His Son on the cross... and even if i have cracked my own vessel  before i see Him He only sees Jesus... thats the biblical description of this 20 century view of process.... Ok i will bite... i think there is a struggle going on here... maybe not from a direct intention... cause i really have never talked to any of you in a personal way... i mean i know that i am a bit dogmatic... ok... so i have this problem see... not only from this new relationship to some of the people who may think that Calvinism is an expression of anger... but even in some of those reformed circles there is this tendency to cast dispersions on the  movement in a historical setting... but really i am not in making this a narrow argument seeking to cast dispersions on the community of love... i mean.. trust me... by experience men are always seeking to find unity... and sometimes at all cost..... my problem with some here who are trying to paint the picture that calvinism is narrow and hateful well there is no more hateful behavior than to present Christ in a way where we share in His righteousness. If there is one evidence of unselfish love in this world... that describes the example for every one who likes a redemptive plot it is in the pure example of Christ going alone to obtain something  that is too precious and worthy for us to even entertain in our minds that we could in reality stand close to that kind of love... and really that to me is an expression of hate for His price paid. And i guess that He in doing it alone was the only one who experienced a level of hate that was not part of His substitutionary purpose and in that sense it was not part of Him... that is forever lost in His love.. and the only way hate could be lost in His love is for Him to do it alone. So defending redemption in the atonement presents the difference between a God who is praise worthy in His righteous indignation or one who is cheapened by the anger of men... in this sense ... the description is more important than the horizontal benefit.  I guess we can discuss this... i would feel a little bit of love if we could be honest about our position on the atonement. It would codify every ones motives in this matter. And i dont want to give the impression that anyone is intentionally opposing the pure grace of God but its more of a teaching directive in how it works out. 4831  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Universalism: Definding the unbeliever at the expense of the Sheep on: June 12, 2009, 12:33:37 PM I know we all think that this world is a fairy tale... there is no division... in the sense that we can produce a kind of reconciliation that makes us feel as if we are pursuing a peace that will last.... here we are in a world of real persecution... real division... but there are so many people who are bridge makers... so many peace makers.. and we are led along as if God has made us all unified by our forgiveness.... and yet at the same time it could be that our imagination is getting the best of us.. for how easy it is for us to accept the feeling of peace and at the same time find our happiness in a lust for more happiness... more agreement and more of a community where men stand up for other men as the expression of our lust for a feeling!!! This is a fairy land where we are in the 20th century.... our society enforces the idea that all man kind can live in a community and not express an idea as representing a real conviction.... a real disagreement... and a real passion for a fight... so we find this peace is making our world very small.. for every step to compromise is a step to injure those who are being taken advantage of as men move up the ladder of success and design!!!! I guess if i could compare modern day religion who have so much of a fairy tale paradigm it would be the new effort to build a tower of babel ... a unified humanity working together to build a tower to heaven... and yet we just saw the demolition of the twin towers... a representation of the financial and wisdom of men... an evil ... a real evil to destroy progress... we lost a lot of good leaders... its part of our down fall.... But this world is not a world of Americans getting along.... we must look at the real thorn in our side.. and we must carry that thorn ... we are suffering... now then ... it isnt a fairy tale... we just try to ignore what we are suffering!!! Peace at all cost... whether it is obtained through religious Pharisee ism or a desire to be non profit will never keep that thorn from hurting... and if you ignore it you will be angry.... for peace only comes when people agree on teaching.... the fairy land philosophy will bring more destruction on the next generation.... for every generation who has compromised will present that next generation with a new fairy tale of peace.... Remove Reply Quote Notify 4832  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: holiness on: June 12, 2009, 11:51:53 AM I do not think that we can rejoice in Christ or enjoy Him that much.... i mean as a completed understanding of the nature of our definite sanctification until we have an appreciation of His saving us by our real understanding of our corruption. I am drawn to Christ through His grace.... in receiving mercy i find grace and if grace was not that pleasant to me then by my own pride i would think that He was pleased with me by my attempt at law keeping. In my experience this is the way to death. So in seeing myself as a sinner then there is no reason for me to obtain any goodness apart from Christ actually being my goodness. In this way i have become free from the bondage to sin... because i have been freed from the condemnation of the law! Now then there is not a pretentiousness in me to present myself before Him that i am not really like! In accepting that i am not going to produce the amount of righteousness in this life that is going to be pleasing to Him... then i have only one master!!!! Because this is the paradigm of His name being above every name! I think freedom to rejoice is seeing Him as my savior from the corruption i carry from my head to my toe.. Oh the sweet promises of Jesus... my only bridge to His protection!!! Oh the sweet Spirit... my only reality to His producing in me the nature of Christ!!! i am drawn to feed on this as i am drawn to a table of delights!!!  Reply Quote Notify 4833  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Universalism: Definding the unbeliever at the expense of the Sheep on: June 12, 2009, 11:13:36 AM Universalism is romanticizing the gospel... did you know that in Calvin's day the Psalter was only used as the song book in the church?.. and then we have from that time over developed an institutionalized reformed theology... so that we place a curse on the people who sung those imprecations but who suffered more than we in defending the doctrines of the gospel with a balanced view of super naturalism... what we have done is accuse that early church of a lack of missionary spirit ... and in doing that we claim that they passed down to us a false view of evangelism... come come now... dont you see that they actually were guarding the doors of Gods ways from the idea of a romantic notion of the church as the means to obtain new converts? I mean... look at the focus of this church.... its missionary ... its not very single minded... i mean.. how can you be a missionary and not grow in the knowledge of these doctrines? You can make the focus on the simple message without any historical conviction to make the ways of God pure and without hypocrisy. Thats just what the nation of Isreal did... and they failed because they were not tough enough on the enemies and they were placing heavy burdens on their own people. God gave them a song book and promise to keep them in His ways in singing these very destructive lyrics. The world will not turn to Christ in desperation until the world is forced away from romantic notions of Christ. The church and missions has stood in the way of showing the world the nature of evil.. the need for super naturalism and the promise of judgment. In departing from the ways of God the church has stood on the side of the world in many ways in the name of Christ and missions. We are involved in a battle not a teaching expedition.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 4834  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Tolstoy got it right on: June 12, 2009, 10:30:54 AM Beef... if you do a word study on anger... hate and vengeance you will find that the command to love your enemies is not a blanket statement that is to be carried out in every situation. The bible is not a how to book that we just develop our own set of rules by quoting particular verses that support our wants and desires. Jesus can lead a person to reconcile with another person if is His will in a given situation.... if you make a blanket statement about every situation then you are in essence saying that unless you do this particular behavior you cannot obtain grace. You can put heavier burdens on your own brothers in Christ that destroy our freedom we have in Christ ... more than the burden of sin that the world has! We believe that the individual who brings his case must have wisdom from above and not a rule of conduct since this teaching is not a blanket teaching..  not as the gospel. We are not like the other side with all the rules.    Here is some NT verses that give a different flavor and are exceptions in individual cases. 2 Timothy 4: 14Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done. This is like an OT imprecation here... The requirement under the law for those who are under the law... or a desire to see God carry out his law on His enemies... how can you love God unless you are righteously indignant toward sin? If you cant then you might stand as an accuser of the brethren in a dispute with the world... you got to choose sides... 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. Here John is saying pray for the reconciliation of the brother not the unbeliever. I mean the unbeliever needs to see his sin first. It is the way down ... not up. Galatians 1: 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Now here is the apostle pronouncing a curse on all those who oppose the gospel. Am i saying to hate your enemies? Not at all... but in some circumstances you are confronted with a fool and God is not going to stand by and let the fool destroy His sheep... i mean in the normal means of the gospel protection... the normal means is to protect your brother in Christ first then the world... i think this is safer than using the argument that the normal means as a rule is to try to reconcile in every situation. In the end we are not in a world that is going to melt under our generosity and love. Only God can bring a person by love... but with the world its always going down first.. with the believer there is no condemnation... got to choose sides. The modern church in general is universal and thats why they abandon their leaders when they fall into sin. All the love.... huh? Reply Quote Notify 4835  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: It is about us... our relationships on: June 11, 2009, 03:04:56 PM Now then confusion in a society and unity are all related to a general deception of the reality of what it looks like when Christ is at the heart of that focus. And i think this is where we get off on our desire to see change... i mean... that we are naturally drawn by what we see... what we feel and what we touch as the habitual way that we imagine an idea... i am not to sure that we completely understand the nature of our spiritual senses and how they inter relate with these physical senses... but our spiritual senses being of the nature of God are training our physical senses. This is the danger of philosophy and religion in that we loose heart in a repetitive sense and change our natural longing for a constant renewal of the physical senses and we begin to compromise as the process of wholeness. As i have been saying that the reality of a perfect world is in the focus of the object in the illumination of the Spirit and its done by the art of wrestling with the different ways that we resist the devil and those ideas that are going to force their way on that focus so that we get side track. In some ways its easier to get side tracked than it is to tire the flesh and the strong attachments that we have in a bad way of thinking so that we will not be driven to a sorrow that will keep us from that sweet illumination. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4836  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: It is about us... our relationships on: June 11, 2009, 02:50:47 PM Everyone has an idea of what the perfect world is like... and yet the world is not perfect... but with the reality and the imaginary world is this wide range of who is exactly right in the presentation of these ideas. So that we are subject to dwelling on societies pressure... family pressure... the pressure of religion.. and the pressure of how we have habitually faced that perfect image.... we are what we think..and so if we just live without a constant reminder and a way of dealing with these different pressure points then we in essence are being passively deceived. Now repetition is the only way that we can be reminded of the original purpose of finding that view that is going to present to us a single image that we will become like... if we are on that station then we will not experience the static of wasted thinking. The point of reminding as we face the pressures is in the logical sequence of the power of the revelation of God and how the more we focus on this idea the more clear the other pressures are exposed as a competition of the way to be whole. Now then repetition in this spiritual wrestling energizes the lethargic areas in our natural way and weaknesses and in that awakening ... i mean we are always awake but we are not always aware of the kinds of images that we entertain. In this sense we follow our minds view of the greatest enjoyment and we begin to feel and act according to our general level of highs and lows in our disposition. This is why religion is so dangerous... its living as if all of these moods are automatic and the ideas that we learn are self fulfilled in the lack of the awareness of t he illuminated experience. So that we learn from a repetitive behavior to find the most pleasant image and then we grow in our understanding by experiencing the high levels of joy and peace that come from a single focus... so that the truth comes from thinking about Christ in focusing on the meaning of the revelation and then we begin to have a general understanding of the effects that are produced by these illuminations and we will change...    Remove Reply Quote Notify 4837  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: It is about us... our relationships on: June 11, 2009, 02:22:32 PM First of all any change that one is going to experience in a long term change and a change that is mainly in the next life is going to be from practicing a behavior in a repetitive way. Repetition does not work until it overcomes the problem. Its not how to find a solution to a problem by some kind of compromise. Through repetition we change our minds about the truth and the solution will come in the unified understanding of what the unity should be. But repetition for repetitions sake is not what i am talking about. I am talking about wrestling in a spiritual sense. And i hope to define these different reactions that we experience in our natural orientation to different ways that people conduct themselves and how we can remain single heart ed and single minded. But the way we must overcome in any kind of trouble is by repeating the way God wants us to think and doing it until we tire the flesh out or we  are tired of reacting a certain way. The repetitive way is a grace way and we are reminded by our practicing that grace is more attractive than our habit. When we wrestle with a habit we do it by constant training and we learn that grace will be the impersonal cause but it will be personal in its effects. So i am the opposite of modern views of change... i believe we dont repeat a behavior enough and we dont know how to wrestle with the problem. We need to enjoy the morning by morning attack on the flesh... and we need to learn from that repetition to enjoy the expectancy of His intervening as the first principle of overcoming our situation and wrestling the flesh to subdue it. We do this by implementing the arguments that God has given us.... this is the way that we resist the devil.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 4838  Members Only / Purgatory / It is about us... our relationships on: June 11, 2009, 02:10:37 PM I want to explore the Calvinist view of marriage and community relationships and how we are to view them in light of confronting trouble... and the problems of miss communication.... i am going to do this in a very different way than the modern views of looking at relationships from a purely humanist and scientific way. This is not going to be a thread on how to force a change. This is from my observations as they come from a purely doctrinal view.  Reply Quote Notify 4839  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 11, 2009, 12:08:24 PM Bill i used to believe that there were two dimensions of reality in a universal sense. But time is God reality. What He ask us to do is what He promises to perform. This is why our purpose in this life is simply to glorify God by enjoying Him for all eternity. Now then i am not asking to look at God and then to look at scripture... but i am following the way that God communicates to us through scripture... in other words God is revealed in scripture... In this sense i cannot decide how God is revealed... if one moment passes and another moment is present.. and the future moment is rapidly coming into the present... God is still sovereign... its still a single dimension. In this sense there is always the imagination that time is two dimensional in cause effect and end. So that God reveals Himself as the reason for our living in the reality of truth in time. If you ask me for a reason of this hope..... what flows from that is God revealing Himself. Where does God need to act from my choices according to what i want? I mean God can save another man anyway He wants to by His word.... it could be a simple prayer on the one hand and a word on the other... God is not bound to a man in His revealing... its just a second cause... its best to think of a mule speaking.... Now within the christian experience there possibly is a two dimensional experience. Now then this is self knowledge. Ok... from this explanation from above... then God has decided what His word is going to do.. on the one hand it will harden a man in His sin of which God already has swore on oath that these men will never know Christ. On the other hand that same word will save another man... but it is Gods call from eternity that works both of these realities... since God only has one will. I am simply saying that the way we think should be like God thinks... ...    Reply Quote Notify 4840  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Universalism: Definding the unbeliever at the expense of the Sheep on: June 11, 2009, 11:47:21 AM The ends for which God works in this world are only for His own glory.... there are ultimate ends and temporary responses ... but these are under the authority of the ultimate end so that God sees every response from all eternity past as present... or before time... And this is according to His word...It is purified seven times or His working in the world is seven times the judgment... that is in the sense that His word is the cause of every event so that it actually brings glory in the punishment of the wicked as well as healing. That is why His oath is toward punishment in a redemptive sense. For in punishing the wicked He saves the righteous. Now then who can resist the usage of the written word of God? It sustains a man in his sins as an agent of legal conviction and at the same time it saves another man according to the good choice of God. And at the same time it is a work of judgment or salvation it is a good word unto the end for which God created the world.  Now this is what Jesus says to us. Here is our high priest... He is good to us in that His word is sure as it is His will being carried out... both His decreeing will and His secret will. I dont think that He reminds His sheep of His punishing abilities... but He shows that He uncovers what is already a reality... both in His protection from the world and His good gifts to men... and all for the end of being God to His own. In this sense His warnings are the passing of our view of men being judged and our longing for Him to end all things. This is our reality of time. Now then... Hebrews is a book that explains all of this... i mean... in introducing God whos sight is all things working by the word of His power... and in the revelation that Jesus is our personal Savior who saves us from unbelief.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 4841  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 11, 2009, 10:33:01 AM If God cannot save people from the paradigm of living in fear... doubt and under the illusion that there is no eternal saving life until the final judgment then men are left in some kind of self salvation in this present experience. If all men are formed by God from their mother and God only has power in force.. persuasion... and wish... then His saving word in a promise cannot be trusted. And if He cannot in act salvation in causing men to believe then He cannot judge a person in the form of an oath in this present world . If God is not fully able to determine the moral ends in the universe then He is not able to determine on His own what kind of judgment a man receives. If He is not able and man is able then He is not God.   Reply Quote Notify 4842  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Tolstoy got it right on: June 11, 2009, 10:00:36 AM I smell the scent of Methodism in the air. Kinda a flowery scent from a fluffy dried out uniform to be worn by a universalist. Obviously if you deny the reality of evil and the consequences as to the inward experience of living in an evil world then you destroy the motivation in desiring what is good and proper. I think this is almost the same kind of paradigm for one who ignores the moral component in his quest to find comfort in the theory of evolution... the old saying "know thyself " is reduced to living in the quagmire of equilibrium ism. Thats why we have so many wayward and unorthodox meta physical components in understanding the importance of the nature of desire in the human disposition. Shakespeare had it in his showing the plight of living in a world where the reality of living in the midst of a people who were so quick to accuse and to  duplicity would force a man to pity his own existence. Quite different from the feelings of a sorrow without a purpose that is an imaginative world were evil is not a force by imputation but an unidentified by stander in the quest to find a small component of self goodness ... only to be dealt with in another world. And in that blindness man cannot hear the words of God... Rom 9:19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? And if God does not have the authority to use evil in this world to accomplish His purposes then as you are saying He is waiting until a future time at the expense of all of His neglect of all second causes!!!! This is truly a man who lives in a dream world. Reply Quote Notify 4843  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Question on: June 10, 2009, 05:38:53 PM Quote from: billbennett on June 10, 2009, 05:33:05 PM Here is a question that brings into sharp focus how one views evangelism and the sharing of the gospel. I know this may trigger some heated discussion, but here goes: Do you believe that there will be people who will go into a lost eternity that would have been in heaven had you or I been faithful in sharing the gospel of Christ and loving them unconditionally? This is not meant to lessen in any way the personal responsibility of an individual to trust Christ or to insinuate that we can save anyone, for salvation is of the Lord. But does our faithfulness to the commission of Christ to go and share the gospel really make a difference? Bill Very good question Bill ... i will think about this and get back for a response. Reply Quote Notify 4844  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Get it Done on: June 10, 2009, 05:25:27 PM Quote from: billbennett on June 10, 2009, 05:13:29 PM Quote Some people think that our primary reason for this life is missionary work... its often repeated like this... the reason we go to church is to be taught how to bring in the world. So the focus is on communicating the gospel... but thats really not the reason... we live to glorify God in all that we do.. including the mundane things and enjoying Him forever.... its not a guilt trip. Its all about grace and love. Tom, I would agree that glorifying God is an important part of our reason for living as believers. And yet sharing the gospel with a lost world is important as well, for this is the commission that He gave his followers following His death and ressurection. Whether as a Calvinist, you do this simply out of obedience to His command, or as a dispensationalist because you believe in the free offer of God's grace to all makes little difference. As Paul said in Phillipians, whatever the motivation, I rejoice in that Christ is preached. For it is the gospel that is the power of salvation to everyone that believes. It would be easy, I confess, to retreat to my study and occupy myself with my books and Bibles. I can see the attraction of the monastic life, with focused communion with God. And yet, the challenge it seems is to maintain this fellowship and communion as I go out into a lost and dying world. I know all too well that God does not need me or anyone else. And yet, He has offered the opportunity to be his ambassador, to share His love with others who He places in my path. As Steve Brown says, as one beggar telling another where He found food. Love you brother and the things you bring here. Bill Thanks you guys... Bill and w8.. i just want to say that it is a pleasure for us to express to one another through these different gifts... and i might say... not one of us is like the other... some people have teaching gifts... and all of this function is making disciples... we have church s that are homes for encouraging the new disciples as well as old ones... as they are made whole then they will love others into the kingdom... all of this is done from the motivation of love and grace....and all tho we have our disagreements as to what is the primary reason in  the focus of the church yet in seeing the encouragement and expression of Gods work in the lives of the people who have come and gone or who remain here... i really am encouraged by all of you. Thanks brother... i hope all is well... Reply Quote Notify 4845  Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: It's Ba-ack! on: June 10, 2009, 05:00:52 PM Casey i will be praying for you... there s a reason that you and her met and get along... God will change whatever direction He wants it to go...