Friday, November 6, 2015

VT14

571  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 31, 2013, 02:16:49 PM
Why is salvation so wonderful and imaginative? Because its foundations are on the free acts of God? Salvation is not really in the gift but in the Giver who acted faithfully and lovingly so that these become our companions. Salvation originates from unfailing love. It is only experienced in the free blessing of God. It is so simple and effective that we misunderstand just how good and free it is. God speaks and when we hear Him we draw near to His unfailing love.

He promised to redeem a people for Himself. This redemption is experienced when we give Him the glory for acting to be the Savior, the Sacrifice and the Father who watches over us. This redemption has its foundations in the act of one man who produces in this finished work a sure salvation for His people. He causes us to see His work and to rejoice in it. He has gone before us and worked in behalf of us and blesses us because of His work. All things belong to Him and He takes whatever He wants and gives it to us. He fills us with the good things of His house and of His holy temple. Everything in our future is good because of His love and faithfulness. He provides redemption for His people and He remembers His covenant forever.

Salvation is a free gift that is given from grace. Grace is Gods favor or goodness. Everything that God has created is to show the wonder of His goodness and faithfulness. When we think about receiving this gift it is rooted in the historical records of saving His people from their enemies. They simply exercised faith by crying out to Him on the day of trouble. The Lord heard their cries and He delivered them. It was not in their horses...nor did their arm bring them victory...but it was Gods rite hand and the light from His eyes. This light is growing brighter and brighter until the final judgement. The light of the glory of God that shines in our faces.

This light is Gods favor given to us from His grace. It is our experience of being saved. We see this light and we are raised up above this world. He puts us on a rock that overlooks all of our troubles. The light illuminates us and we begin to glow with the power and effervescence of God. Planted in each one of us is the roots of His word. When He spreads His tent over us, that word speaks to us of His salvation. Our desire cannot be destroyed or miss applied. We long to hear His saving word. It is that word of deliverance that we hear loud and clear! When He speaks His deliverance it is in the context of His goodness, faithfulness and kindness towards us. We glory in His grace, that reminder of our first love. We feel such raptures of love and kindness that we cannot contain ourselves. We stand in the pure grace of God.  
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572  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 31, 2013, 12:29:50 PM
We make this more difficult than it is. Look at it in a very simple way.All men are gonna stand before the judgement. Ultimately no one knows who is gonna be given eternal life in its full effects or who will be judged eternally. But the only difference is whether we know Christ. He will either say come in my blessed child and receive your white robes or depart from me I never knew you. So in this sense being religious has very little to do with real saving knowledge.

The gospel is geared toward saving and not judgement. Instead of blurring the lines between salvation and judgement the bible teaches that salvation is better than we could ever imagine and judgement is worse than we could ever imagine. If we try to lesson the reality of this then we really are not in step with moving toward salvation. Seeking salvation is in the knowledge of it even if we do not experience it. Having the correct knowledge of salvation is the only hope we have of being saved. He came to save and not condemn. So salvation is geared toward rewards and not punishment. Our wish for equal love will only water down the attitude of Gods standard of goodness in which we avoid anything to prevent us from experiencing that goodness. In other words salvation is found outside of ourselves in exalting God.

In seeking it we face the reality that men will try to keep us from obtaining it. There is nothing wrong with experiencing separation unto God. There is nothing wrong with always confessing that if all men rejected salvation that we would seek it in-spite of them. Our confession is "do not drag me away with the wicked." This is in the Lords prayer... "lead me not into temptation but deliver me from evil."  God demands what He gives. Theres a big difference between the questions posed to God out of unbelief and the sincere questions in the context of these presuppositions and in step with salvation that command faith. He leads in a way in which we follow. The whole race of mankind are only able when God gives.  
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573  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 30, 2013, 02:39:25 PM
Salvation is a confession of the fundamental parts of our relationship with God. This is why the doctrines are not necessary scatter through out the bible but they create a spirit from each word. The bible does not say comparing scripture with scripture is going around and quoting different scriptures to prove we are rite. But it is a way of thinking so that it places man in two camps. The scriptures declare the absolute reality of these two types of people. These two groups are going in the opposite direction. No matter what kind of psychological jump ropes we jump through the simple declaration of scripture will mold our view of the world as we confess it on our lips. What we declare about the works of God sets all the other explanations about truth in its proper context.

What do we declare about salvation? We declare as the apostle that we not longer belong to ourselves. Our confession is that all other methods of obtaining good things is up against our putting our souls into His hands. This does not mean that we are slaves in the sense that we suffer abuse. We are servants because we have been given a gift. We have become special to God because it places us in a relationship in which He favors us. This favor is His promise to do more than we could ever ask for. Servants of the most High go before the Judge and plead their cause with precession. We cannot fail.

We declare that we are opposed to those who do not have our best interest. The bible is a book about relationships. Christian relationships are loyal relationships. They are not loyal because we are perfect. But they are loyal because we are fighting on the same side. We both have our eyes always fixed on our Leader. This is experienced as God allowing or denying. We curse the curses and speak the confessions of what i am explaining. In this we create a society that glorifies God as the apostle did in the epistles. be back. more more

Salvation is a declaration that we do not stand before God at any time thinking that we are accepted because of our goodness. But if God were to hold our sins against us then we would be cut off from the face of the earth and our prosperity would cease to exist. But God does not count our sins. The relationship is secure because we stand in a position as a friend of God not just His child. This means that we have certain rites as His sons. Which gives us freedom not in the sense that we have complete righteousness but to do anything we desire for the purpose of being free. We are not necessarily thinking that His sovereign will for us is between rite and wrong but its a shared creation between what we want and what He has planned. It is not because we are afraid that He will reject our desire but He will either give it to us or change it.

Salvation is coming to Him to petition for all of our needs. Its placing them before day by day..morning by morning and waiting in expectation. It is not for the purpose necessarily of getting what we want but its enjoying what He gives because everything we have is only enjoyed as we are free to see that He gave it to us in the spirit of deliverance. That word of salvation in the answer to our need of which He speaks to us. Or its experiencing the freedom of enjoying that thing because He removes all other wants ..that is His allowing us to enjoy them as His emanations going one way and we experience the unity of spirit in partaking. So in this sense our repetition is not for Him but its for us.

Salvation is declaring that we are gonna seek Gods face. It is setting our hearts to seek only one thing in life. Its not just seeking Him but its denying that anything else is worth this one thing. So its really rebelling against that thing that is destructive to our focus. Its seeking Him face to face in which we experience a kind of beatific vision. That being we are as it were gone up to God so that we do not want anything on this earth. Its being lost in the pleasure and praise of God. We experience a love of God so that all other relationships are hate.

Now this is controversial.

I hear a lot of teaching about the Trinity and how the Father Son and Spirit in their three Persons are unified. And the more we understand the work of each the more we are gonna grow and communicate correctly in our approach to God. But there is another side to this. God coming down to fellowship with us. God coming down in our skin. We are not angels flying around in white robes when we come from the use of the means as prayer or worship. But we experience our Father coming down in our skin. There is a human experience of redemption. Redemption is no just all the good things that we focus on. But it could be speech that is in defense of our cause. I mean there is a time and a place for every thing. To say something negative for the purpose of defending is wholesome. lol The purpose of redemption is not just that Christ has gained the victory and we experience His victory. But its as the apostle practices that he will be delivered from all of his troubles. Some times expressing love is being hateful in defense.

This is because we are not disembodied spirits. But we as human beings have needs in a relationship sense. We cut and bleed. God has not given us a remedy in which we ascend to some kind greek god and become that god. Nor is the Trinity separate greek gods who stand aloof and only respond when we have ascended to a kind of angelic state. lol No God has come down in our skin and given us His word that answer our every earthly experience. I will talk more about this.
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574  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 29, 2013, 01:43:36 PM
This in my opinion is dangerous to take the nt words out of their proper ot context. There is only a certain amount of revealed words out of all the words that man speaks. The context of these words is contained in the bible and it is contained in the heart of man in salvation. So a believer cannot continuously live as tho the law protects his little kingdom. I mean the purpose of salvation is to go from one deliverance to another in spite of our short comings.

Any one who plans to keep the law and works to keep it has all of his emotions and desires involved in self worship. So his view of himself rises and falls in obedience or disobedience. This is not salvation but self protection. Real salvation is losing our lives and gaining our lives. So we are actually doing the opposite of what self protection looks like. But the out working of our position in Christ is ultimate protection. So when we face trials it is not a matter of how we profit from them.

To love self is to be totally dependent upon God. Which is to be self protective. When we seek God we are not seeking Him from something other than for God Himself. We are not using our faith or the process of salvation to seek God. We have a desire that does not have any relation to this world. It is not in the place that we worship God but its in spirit! How can we have such a small view in the history of worship? People suffered without the normal means and yet were sustained by God in their desire. Where do we get this idea that salvation has physical markers? Salvation is a gift that does not depend upon us or upon anything in this world. Listen if we do not really believe it is necessary to balance out our repentance with cursing and blessing then we will build a religious system around our view of the second use of the law. Where does it say to look at the physical markers of salvation in order to know we are saved?
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575  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 29, 2013, 11:23:39 AM
The law in its purity is what is spoken by God. It is successful only in that God works to overcome all opposition because He is the only one that is pure enough to not imagine an idol. This is why the law is not just the prohibition but it is also using it to develop a self image in the imagination as meeting its requirements outside of Gods intent. So man in redefining the law lowers the standard for himself in order to image whatever it requires. In lowering the standard that man intends to destroy his neighbor. So mans power is built by all of the schemes he produces by the law.

This is why the foundations are destroyed. The requirement is lowered to the standard of those who have destroyed their neighbor in a self profit scheme. It is so anti intuitive for us to think that our love for inability actually saves us from many of the weights of this world. We are saved by resisting the worlds success. lol
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576  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 29, 2013, 11:06:57 AM
It is wise for us to test the spirits to see if the words used are from God. Obviously the words are mixed with our human weakness. So our confession should always be as the apostle... what ever is not true let it be burned up or do not follow it... but whatever is true let these words be successful. So if there is any stumbling block it begins with our own weakness.

This is why we curse. Because we read words that are miss understood when they are spoken to us. All the words that come to us must work to enable us to grow. This is extremely important. We curse the curse because it is what translates from the words that is destructive to us. We seek to understand Gods law in its proper context but the destructive communication of the law is the intent in man. The law of God is in itself our friend because it is Gods instrument of cursing.

The words of scripture are not just from the intellect. The more these words are experienced as life the more blessing will be translated to the hearer. So there is a danger of receiving these words without the proper experience of the hearer and the one who speaks. So we seek all of our lives for one thing and in this the dross comes to the top. We seek this by creating decomposition in cursing the curses as we are told what we are required to do. A good example is Nadab and Abiu..they were offering strange fire...unbelieving teachers. The resistance we feel is really our frustration of not meeting the requirements of the whole law. But this is in its purest form destructive to grace. We curse the curses because we seek to overcome the anger so that it brings about a spirit of grace and deliverance. We always in passing requirements are under the obligation to kill the destruction. We put a sword in our ability that is more important than the passing on of the requirement. In this is the mystery of salvation experienced.  
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577  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 29, 2013, 10:28:30 AM
I really do not want to argue from some form of theological knowledge but from a holistic understanding of all the words of scripture. The problem is first a miss understanding of words having different meanings for the same words that are passed along. So as the original words that were put in the context how God works are changed which is to put a stumbling block for others as they seek to walk down this single path.

The bible really talks about the human heart as self knowledge by words. The goal is to be able to understand the function of the heart by the real meaning of the words which is always successful in its application. Because the bibles words are life. Faith in its true essence does not originate from the will. It is a saving knowledge in the description of God and us. So believing is creating the strength of faith by casting down imaginations. These imaginations are the idols or false images in the use of words in which the heart is drawn to.

The gospel in word order is the highest expression of pleasure because it always focuses on the glory of God. The words we use is like the soil that a plant grows in. When we speak we should speak the very words of God. These words are always successful because they create Gods emanations that go out one way and come back to God alone. The only other option is for man to spiral down into humanistic circular reasoning. Faith is a supernatural understanding in which these words of life produce in us one desire. We feed this desire with the truth that is in Gods truth. Our view of the world is through our faculties that function properly as we experience the life of these words.

 Not only do the words of the gospel speak life so that we feed our souls with this life but they create our future. Faith is not something that is just in the whole man but it is compared to many different physical instruments that we come in contact with. If you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move mountains. Its impossible for us to move mountains in our own strength. So faith is the evidence of things unseen. In the physical realm we would need a bulldozer to move a mountain but in the realm of faith there is detail that we do not understand nor can we see that moves the mountains. So faith is believing in a recreated event.

This is why the gospel is something we try to explain that cannot really be understood to the natural mind. How can a man who is unable to do one good thing be so powerful and successful? But the gospel is more than a message that we accept one time. Now listen , it is our meditation that puts a magnifying glass on Gods attributes that move all the events in this world according to His holiness. We possess the words of deliverance. These words that are letter form are actually the unity of the Trinities work in time. Our walk is only successful because the Trinity goes out before us and provides us with the way to God and they are behind us like wind blows the smoke away. So we experience unity of life when we experience Gods emanations going one way.  
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578  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 28, 2013, 01:05:31 PM
The bible is a history of redemption. Because it is written in a way to show the works of God. This is why we cannot draw parallels of how things transpire on the earth from our view as how we interpret the bibles description of these horizontal relationships. Both the good and the bad parts are essential in the plan of redemption. So the bible gives us the inevitable depiction of man in light of his weakness to not experience full redemption until he is in the presence of God. It is not written to show how successful man is in finding complete peace on this earth.

We must start with the presupposition that God orders all the events on the earth that is a place of death so that the only actions that matter in the end are what God has done because He does whatever pleases Him. Outside of this view of history there would would not be an experience of love on the earth. This is why the bible uses metaphors in Christ decent to the earth as going to the depths of the earth...showing the level of humility that Christ displayed in His human life.

We must begin to look up and develop a heavenly view of time and space reality. The bible is a book in which the works of God that He performs on the earth start from an eternal counsel. We must learn all of these presuppositions before we can properly interpret how these powers balance out in history. The bible teaches the importance of presupposing the separation of powers from heaven and earth. When we try to explain an event it is in the context of a wider view of all the details of those things that we do not understand and those things we cannot see. In this pre supposition our exalting God will be consistent with the true facts of an event. In this mindset we are forced to view events as necessary in light of Gods redemptive purposes. The bible teaches us to look at things from an unnatural human way. We try to narrow down facts to fit our small view. But this is really an attempt to push God out of the picture. Gods sovereign love is experienced as we think of events under His sovereign control with His view of the facts.  Seeing history in this redemptive presupposition is seeing real facts.
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579  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 27, 2013, 04:59:39 PM
The christian life is an experience. What we think of ourselves is in the context of what is true success by how we define powers. Our acting in a correct way is to experience the power of God going one way. The fundamental foundation of our anxiety is in our familiarity with our weakness as a result of sins curses. This causes us to be frustrated and angry. If God is loving, kind, faithful, long suffering and gentle then why do we suffer sorrow in a physical and spiritual way? Why do the troubles of this world have this piercing effect?

When we experience the sorrows of this life like an arrow our anger turned inward is how infantile we view ourselves as a human in the view that we have of a God who cares. If God acts as a holy sovereign then it is our temptation to think He must force Himself through our sorrow to show His response to our sin. But our salvation is never successful in turning our anger on ourselves. If our success was achieved by destroying our hope of survival then we would never really enjoy all things as God has gifted them to us. So our self hatred that is turned inward is more destructive than our sinful condition.

This condition of hate is sometimes like a wound that has become infected. It is described in scripture as a potentially deadly physical wound. The opposition to our experience of the pleasure of the praise of God is this perceived hopelessness as if we were facing death. So in a sense the curse of death is the sting of death that is what we think of ourselves in dying. This kind of experience can be very destructive adding sorrow upon sorrow. But it is so easy for us to endure it by balancing our troubled mind with the attempt to exalt God without being human. The sovereignty of God cannot be experienced if we always view it as our loss as more important than our courage experiencing hope in being saved. This is the difference between our hating ourselves and because we think that anger is like a liquid and there is parts of human anger and Gods anger. God does not choose one over another just to prove a doctrinal point. He would never leave us to conclude that being distant and sovereign is for our good.  But God acts to defend in His choice. We start from the position that God is most concerned for our health.

Our anger is a gift from God in order to overcome all opposition both inward and outward. We are not gifted with two personalities. Anger and love. But we are gifted with anger that is contained. We now have pleasure in righteous indignation. If God is sovereign then He is more than just a holy God who reacts to sin. But He is a God who designs the universe to overcome destruction by contained righteous indignation. The point of God being faithful,kind, loving, and long suffering is how He contains all the reactions to events both bad and good because He controls them in perfect holiness.

God has created us to respond as human beings. Our reaction is how we view Gods balance of all of His attributes as one response. This is why His holiness ...that being His perfect response is contained in us as an experience of righteous indignation.To know God as holy is to experience the pleasure of giving God the glory He deserves by experiencing the alignment of our personal anger expressed as God creates our success.      
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580  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 27, 2013, 03:36:10 PM
See now Joker is saying that we really dont have a personal right in being delivered from sin. In other words, it's the survival of the fittest because it's offered to anyone with the stipulation that they meet the requirements of the offer. So Joker is saying that in order for us to think of this christian experience as real to us we must start with the presupposition that God loves all men equally and only those who choose to receive Gods love are put in this equal proposition of faith on our part and works to show what Gods love is about. Jokers foundation of belief is faith that is proved because of works. But we know that this is a contradiction.

First the requirement of believing is that we are unable to believe. So we start from an impossible proposition in the way the natural man thinks about getting something that has something that is required of him. So the predominate logic when we talk about what is successful in a worldly sense is to do something in order to prove it is worthy. If the foundation of God loving man is from equality then our response to God loving us determines His loving us. Some people say that faith and works are equally important. This is what i have been saying is two lines that never meet. Its like saying there is an electrical current that is present when the positive and negative are never attached to the source.

What we are saying is that Gods gift is prepackaged. Its given because there is nothing that we can do to get it. We cannot even choose because we are dead. So we receive something that is totally foreign to our natural way of reacting to the way that all men think. We accept something of value that looks to other men as unexplainable. What we are saying is that grace is the foundation of our belief. We are not trying to explain why we have this gift and others do not. Because its given by grace we begin to accept this gift by thinking that our lives are in His hands. Being redeemed is confessing that we do not belong to ourselves. So in this way we go beyond the will as Jokers foundation of faith and we embrace salvation as it is solely in God and not in us.

So now we have more predominate oppositions. Our desire is to seek something that in the view of men is worthless. In seeking this one thing we are saying that we cannot trust in our own power or our own willing. We make bold propositions. How can a God treat someone special who acts in a way that is not consistent with his faith? We oppose the desire to put the will in the position of ability. In opposing the successful way the world achieves success we place God in the position of always intervening as our success. If we do not seek to find inability as the foundation of our confidence in the christian experience then we will be divided.  
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581  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 27, 2013, 12:10:49 PM
These guys are playing fast and loose with the pronouns in the text. sbg says that when the apostle is pointing out a broken relationship in the past he is all inclusive in grouping the members of the local church by the distinction he makes between you and them. But sbg plays fast and loose with this very important separation with those inside the church and those who are outside of the church. If Paul gives a very detailed description in describing the saving relationship that one group has then why does he point to this one teaching that Paul makes concerning the saving relationship and not accept the total description of his usage of the personal pronouns you, us , we,etc. He is not showing any consistency with the rules of grammar. If Paul further teaches that we who are in the group are baptized into Christ, identified with Christ in His resurrection, being given all the promises of the covenant, and fully justified then where is this other group of people in the text who are reconciled but unsaved? Where does the apostle make a distinction when he only talks about us and them? Where is this third group? Its only in sbgs mind.

As I have shown that Joker in making a fast rule that the "world" is everyone who lives on the earth creates many contradictions in the text. He says that he believes in the context of these verses but he refuses to allow a very legitimate definition that is our responsibility to interpret the text accurately. There are other definitions of the "world" that are more consistent with the text as I have pointed out.  
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582  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 26, 2013, 12:33:19 PM
 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Joker talks about language and context. Here is his universal contradiction. Here it says that God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world. In Jokers definition of the world it is all the people in on the earth. So God does not judge all the people on the earth. And then it says that God saves the world...so God saves all the people on the earth... but we have a presupposition which puts the world in the context of some people. lol jokers context since it is locked and we cant distinguish what world means in reference to the context
But then the contradiction is whoever believes is then taken out of the every person scheme in translating the world all the people in the world as it says that the world is judged. Where is the math equation written in the verse? We are saying that it is not a literal all the world if there is a supposition attached.  So the world is those who do not believed are judged ..not jokers strict definition.

And yet Joker says that our rendering of the world to be those who are actually saved ...is in our imagination. lol And yet Joker is quick to presuppose there is a secret math equation thats not actually in the text. The imagination is to claim that your being contextually correct by giving the world only one definition while , us, our, my, and on the judgment side.. them, the world, ...mean everyone in the world.
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583  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 26, 2013, 11:37:24 AM
You guys always bring up the sermon verses about enemies. And yet there is no connection of your teaching to the ot law. Christ came to the earth as a Sacrifice and a Lamb. But He did not give up His ruler ship over the earth in the context of the Lord of Heaven. He depicted His coming to earth as the "Sovereign Lord" of the ot...the highest position of authority that enters the strong mans house. The strong man must first be bound before he can be plundered. The context of Christ teaching was to address the issues of the society in order to bind the strong man. So He came as the governor in the ot sense. Where as God was over the earth..now God was among His people.

But Christ was also human so He had to resist the strong man as a man. He wasnt a super human character who was above engaging himself in the conflict in an experience of a man. He experienced the sorrows and conflicts of a man. As a man His purpose was redemption. So He took sides.

God in His sovereignty only has redemptive purposes which demands a defense. He was never opposing His own success in the paradigm of potentials. Everywhere He went it was His purpose to bind the strong man. His word is never neutral. When He addressed the issue of enemies it was in the context of destructive edicts. In other words you cant take advantage of the poor and oppressed by treating them as enemies. You must meet their needs...you cant abuse your authority. He was presenting His case before He seized the strong man.
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584  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 26, 2013, 10:29:51 AM
If Christ died for the whole world and then the bible says that His death is our identity and the power of His resurrection is our power the "our" would be the whole world in Jokers mind. Unless he is saying the our is a potential. But what good is potential? It doesnt address the central issue of focusing on a reciprocal relationship. If salvation is intended to address issues that have no connection between people and God then how much value do we put in it as we talk? Isnt the whole purpose of God to bring salvation to man work out in the individual reciprocal relationship between the two parties?

So instead of getting to the purpose of salvation we stay on the insignificant things. If God saves the whole world then no one would be judged. But God is also the angry judge. How much confidence would you put in a potential event as opposed to the actual event? How necessary is potential in the time line of history? Its like always living in the mindset of gambling.How many people do you know who have the potential of being saved will actually in the future be saved? Of course no one knows! So i give you the facts but you want me to write a novel. lol There is no potential event that has ever made it to the time line of history. Its what you imagine when you read something that has never been part of Gods plan. If it was necessary it would have been an actual event. Such romantic notions.

Why would we say that its more important to think of God as having no special favors to people ...and since we are part of the "people" it would be selfish of us to think that God actually treats us according to His choice of us which He purposed for our good? Are we special enough to decide what kind of love God has for us at the expense of wanting to believe in the notions of a potential salvation? Who would offer money for this transaction? Unless of course it was gambling.

This is why ive tried to change the way we think by showing how God as governor of the world has a measurement that demands a just declaration which is cursing and blessing in every inch of His universe. These are real facts.
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585  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 25, 2013, 04:02:59 PM
Reconciliation is simply the same word as saving relationship. The definition is making peace between two parties. The apostle says that he brought nothing into his salvation. The rule as a foundation for grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is that we only come to Him with one thing and that is our sin.

The scripture teaches us that when we are saved we are fully made complete in Christ. We are made definitively holy. This means that we can look in the past beyond our salvation and know that God is renewing us to honor by creating forgetfulness and a new history of redemption. But even tho we already are fully complete in Christ we still must experience this in our walk. In other words Christ not only gave us the gift of salvation but He has already gone out before us and been successful. He is the light that goes out before us.. He is the fire that consumes our foes on every side. Since our salvation has already been completely purchased for us then we are not the main focus but we are cheering our leader on as we move along in this world. This is the exhortation by the apostle prior to him talking about our walk in this world.

But we still are not complete in our experience. We still must recon these things to be so. We still must seek to put all of our confidence in the gospel of grace. So we are still waiting to receive our full salvation. Salvation is a confession rite up to the time it becomes a full reality. We pronounce blessing and we cry out to God. 
 
586  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Who is it that shall be saved ? on: July 25, 2013, 10:16:54 AM

Who is it that shall be saved ? I like that word shall in scripture, for it denotes certainty, ,it will occur ! It means something is sure to happen by the promise and word of Him that cannot lie. Now here is a for sure promise to everyone Christ died for, and by His Death Reconciled them to God, even while they were being enemies/unbelievers, they all, everyone of them, Shall be Saved !

Ah, but there's a contingency:

"if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." - Colossians 1:23

No  its not. The contingency is God's Word of Promise !

What do think an "if" clause is?  

Yes I agree and this verse is talking about being strong in the middle of opposition. The rule is that those who are a friend of God are friends of the friends of God and those who are enemies of God are enemies of the friends of God. But there are two kinds of opposition. There is the wicked opposition that we face and self righteous opposition. So the second rule is if we are confident in the means of faith and it becomes the area where there is a bone of contention then we are proceeding in the face of the opposition. The subtext of this rule is that all those who are really under the paradigm of the covenant of grace will only rejoice...that being in the natural order ..how God has designed relationships and the function of the earth as it is our domain as a means to only rejoice in the prosperity of His people. We lay aside all blame and honor Gods design. Blame in scripture is redefining that order and practicing something outside of our design...animals, man, woman etc. Otherwise we oppose those who oppose this confession. To cast blame and not honor Gods design in a christian context is to curse.

This is why you cant copy the christian life without a continuous use of the means. Because the way of God is by word. And what we say must be what God thinks. How do we become wise? By continuously going to His word and talking to Him in this honorable language. We cannot lay aside our own desires if we do not understand them in the context of His word. The way of God is a His counsel that is thinking thoughts after Him. Any other context of seeking God is really spiritual adultery. This is to remain steadfast- in the mist of opposition we create Gods kingdom by pronouncing His word and calling on Him. In this context we separate the chaff from the tree planted by streams of water. As we become more and more opposed we resist the call of He trust in the Lord let the Lord deliver Him. God is always leading us to greater conflict to grow in His created word.  The wicked curse God by trying to go in a way that is not of peace. But the righteous place everything in Gods hands through the curse of the law which is Gods righteous indignation.  
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587  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 23, 2013, 02:00:36 PM
Joker glad to pass along the grammar insight.


But what is love if it is something that in the end never accomplishes the saving of a man? So we argue about a percentage but the person is still suffering for eternity. If that is the kind of love that is being proposed here then maybe a good intention is rewarded even tho the need was never addressed. In my opinion that is like flattering someone with promises that are imaginations.

 But God loves because He is successful as He loves the object as Himself. Which means that Gods love is always active in changing someone for the good. The scripture gives God human parts to show that He is holy in loving sinful creatures. If God lowers Himself by describing His interaction with us in terms of human attributes then He meets us in our description as we are transparent. So we express ourselves as God is seeing ...that is doing everything for us in all things for our good...so that we describe our sorrow in frustration of knowing Gods standard of goodness. In this way our desire is always greater than we could conceive in just thinking in human terms. This is the mystery of Gods love as a created future reality in our experience.
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588  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 23, 2013, 01:45:37 PM
The reconciliation of Gods elect prior to salvation is a dangerous teaching. First of all it is an argument for some kind of physical marking. If God reconciles sinners that He imputes sin and destruction to then it inhibits Gods choice by lessening the power of God to allow or withhold. If God decides to save men by a lesser depravity than other men then man is not responsible for his actions prior to salvation. We could make a hypothesis that the person who is in the religious community is closer to salvation because of his self righteousness by thinking he is reconciled even tho he is not saved.

What is the difference between pointing to a physical marker as an entitlement to be saved or in the religious culture pointing to being in the advantage of being saved equaling a relationship of reconciliation prior to salvation?  Isnt this the foundation of self righteousness that Jesus condemned in the ot church?" We have God as our Father because we are given the inheritance by circumcision or through a national spirit." If there is nothing in us that meets the requirements of being a recipient of Gods reconciliation then we must have an ongoing confession that nothing equals a grace given not for merit but ill-merit.

If God offers salvation because of something in us then it is not through real grace. Whatever power we bring into the reconciliation is ours to exercise to help God. So God does not really allow or withhold. This is why its vital to make a distinction between essential powers under the support of fundamental doctrines that prove God to be glorified in all things. If there is any preconceived idea that allows that gospel to be altered and it is coddled then it becomes an issue of what is true authority. Its an indirect way of building a system of checks and balances that satisfies man. Declension of religion is never really in the systematic expression of truth because the system can be out of one mans vision. But its only found as deliverance is experienced from gospel applications. We always become detailed so that we can reduce everything to one power. It is Gods created word that is its own success.
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589  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 21, 2013, 11:09:57 PM
first of all the verb in this sentence is kathllaghmen-(were reconciled) which is an aorist passive plural. The prefex kata ... is intensive...not the same word used of reconciliation in other passages. It is associative with the dative...to God. The word ecqroi- enemies ontes-being  is a conditional phrase in the indicative and is a nom participle. The hypothesis is assumed as an actual fact, the condition being unfulfilled. "We were enemies" is a real time fact.  It actually modifies the aorist tense verb...point and time in the past. Literally.. "at the time we were reconciled we were enemies."So just as it is translated according to the rules of grammar it reads For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son. Which is the correct translation since the conditional phrase -nom part takes on an adverbial modification. The words "being enemies" actually is a figure of speech. catabasis...it denotes a descending rather than the idea of ascending. without strength>sinners> enemies.
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590  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 21, 2013, 03:31:25 PM
Let me talk about the cup of Gods wrath and the cup of Gods blessing. Both of these cups are side by side in this world. Because redemption can only win with deliverance. The cup of blessing is Gods life poured out for us. It is growing as we proceed in this christian life. It is not necessarily a physical cup of the atonement but its all the gifts that we receive from grace. We are not holding a cup in our hand but a sword and sickle. This cup has two kinds of blessing. One is positive blessing. It is all the promises of the covenant that God works in our place. So God pours out His blessing to us by being what we need. We receive all of these gifts in abundance through grace. The other portion of the cup are the gifts that the wicked store up through deceit and destruction. God takes these blessings and gifts them to us.

The cup of the wicked are those good and destructive things they store up for the day of Gods wrath. When Israel went to war they compared the justice meted out for God to equal it in terms of the wicked drinking down all of the contents that God pours out. So this is a form of righteous indignation to wish they would drink it down to its very dregs. Because all of the contents are turned into judgement. This is developed in a serious minded believer. May my words and the meditation of my heart work to reward me in the judgement.
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591  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 21, 2013, 03:06:08 PM
The christian life is walking down a smooth path. It is no longer stepping on the sharp objects of our own sin. Sin has been dealt with. We are no longer divided...led in a 50-50 proposition. We have Gods will with His desires. This life is developed by God and the path cannot be altered. Our problems do not come from the foundations of our faith. Our foundations are secure while all other foundations are shaky. We walk on a level path.

We no longer think that we can reverse our walk. Our desires are not divided. We only desire one thing because that one thing is what we are instinctively are. We cannot be any other thing. All other things now become an imagination. We desire to see the face of Christ and it is in our best interest because Christ is the light who shines in our face. This light is our healthy countenance. It is the success we experience for ourselves.

We advance in light of the temptations of this life. All of the temptations that we face are only test and not destructive to us. Even if we fail the test they still work out for our good. Every sorrow we face in a fundamental way are like holes that are dug by the wicked. They are called traps that are set for the righteous. Every trap that we face have been determined by God. All traps are turned for our good. We advance being saved from temptation by God letting the wicked who set the traps in our way to fall into them themselves. Even if we do not see justice on this earth we can be sure that the scales will be rite on the other side. We will stand with the judge.

In our lives we face the potential of a temptation that could destroy us. We are exiled by an evil society. But God designs this potentially deadly temptation to judge the wicked while we are caught in the effects. There is no time or any circumstance that will condemn us. We are blameless and victories no matter what the circumstances look like. The other side will paint a different picture.
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592  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 21, 2013, 12:20:16 PM
Its funny because we who believe that God is the only one who can change a person or a situation are accused of being exclusionary. My writing is not necessarily an argument for my position but its from years of self talk from scripture. Our first resistance to our believing on a daily basis is that we have failed in some area which is our focusing on our choosing something from our free will. The reason of our proof of the validity of something is not saying it is our free will. And yet from Jokers side when we start to disagree it always ends up as the only reason they disagree with us. All the reasons for enjoying something is always because we have a free will.

Ive always wondered why there are situations that a person comes to that seem hopeless. After all if a person loses all hope he wouldnt be confident in resisting the sorrow by talking about his free will. But a person who is really suffering finds that his confidence in his free will only makes his suffering worse. And we find this in the situations that Jesus encountered as He walked the earth. Jesus was said to be a drunkard because He spent most of His time in the company of prostitutes and drunkards. Why was it that Jesus who was able to see a persons heart enjoyed the company of hopeless people? Because there was a certain freedom these people had in knowing they were hopelessly lost and were not even strong enough to pull themselves out of the sorrow. Instead of being confident in their own free choice they detested themselves too much. 

The question is why did Jesus always point to these people when He talked about salvation? Why not use the Pharisees as an example of exercising their free will in order to be in a position of salvation? It is exactly in this mysterious language of the heart that seems to be upside down that is the evidence of salvation in that persons heart.

Deliverance always begins when we acknowledge our inability. The mysterious communication of salvation is that we have nothing to offer not even our own confidence in ourselves that can add to our feeling accepted. You find this kind of experience as you grow in the christian life. You move along by always coming to the end of yourselves. Christ was showing that these sinners were in the extreme position as an example of what not to do and yet the only difference between these people and the self righteous was one of self confidence which brought the wicked closer to being delivered. You see what looks balanced and wise is our first response to deliver ourselves. We have many ways of saying its because of my free will and yet our self confidence keeps us from a new conversion.

This is the mystery of salvation. Obviously if we have no power to exert in the christian experience we are gonna be burdened beyond hope. We are gonna find ourselves being overcome by all kinds of wickedness. Is it a matter of God forcing us through sorrow to find conversion? Why would God take away all of our confidence and then demand obedience? Obviously God is not talking about the absence of power but how that power is communicated to us in salvation. He says if you lose yourself then you will find yourself. What He is communicating is that we move along in His power alone!
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593  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 18, 2013, 05:14:10 PM
mbg

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You said the elect are reconciled from birth.


I  have stated way more than that  you have not even begun to address my points, but continue to evade them.

Thank you for acknowledging that you believe people are reconciled at birth. Now you have stepped forward and shown some conviction. You do not need to pull a bunch of text out to support your position. Your position has no historical basis. The two positions of any relevance are my position and Jokers position. The reason that your position is irrelevant is because it is a contradiction. You are basically saying the result of belief which is one position and unbelief which is the opposite position equal the same in relationship. Study the law of non contradiction. "The Law of non-contradiction is one of the basic laws in classical logic.  It states that something cannot be both true and not true at the same time when dealing with the same context."
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594  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 18, 2013, 01:30:58 PM
mbg

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Your theory turns in on itself.

Again, you have evaded and failed to address my points. You are way behind.

I understand exactly what your intending. You said the elect are reconciled from birth. I did not. That is a contradiction as i have shown. YOur probably talking about infant baptism...i surmise... sense your being so evasive.
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595  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 18, 2013, 10:38:44 AM
Your theory turns in on itself. I guess i will talk directly at you in a simple way since you havent responded to a thing ive said. I guess your reading level is to simplistic.

If in fact God is "definite" in His reconciling men to Himself and no one who is in the column of the wicked are reconciled then how can it be "definite" if we all still sin? If God has sort of sealed the deal then dont you think that His rules of reconciliation would be taught in a way that it would be assured to us?Your saying that God would be standing in for sinners on both sides of salvation. If in fact all men are sinners but God reconciles some men while they have no desire to know God but some people who ignore God are not reconciled then how can we ever know we are reconciled if we question our own faith or if we sin and fail badly?

If we are seeking God but failing and at the same time the other person has no evidence of salvation but stands in the same reconciliation then how can we know that we are reconciled? The others teach that reconciliation is universal because God gives all men the potential to be reconciled. But you teach that reconciliation applies to those who deserve it since they belong to Christ and at the same time in the same way in an obviously different relationship but enjoying peace ....since there is no evidence of reconciliation that they both are reconciled. lol...That is a contradiction. In a sense Joker is closer to the correct teaching than you are.

If you can show me were the bible teaches two kinds of reconciliation then go ahead. If its only one reconciliation then your contradicting yourself. I see no teaching in the bible where God describes a relationship with the "wicked" ..in fact it is the opposite.
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596  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 17, 2013, 02:12:13 PM
mbg

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I will rehearse your points when you take all of scripture and not proof text them.


Then you have no reason to debate me, if you cannot understand my points made with scripture.

Well if this was a boxing match i knocked you out because I presented the ephs verse and you had no response... i guess i won that round
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597  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 17, 2013, 01:22:21 PM
Your trying to make the word "enemies" subjective. But this world is Gods kingdom. Because God has established His throne over the whole earth. His throne is established in His attributes being evidenced in creation. The creation is under the order of Gods governance. God establishes authority on this earth and finds them wanting. Enemies are not Gods vision of people alone. But God has ordered all things in this world in sustaining them. If God is on the throne which is His working in all things to bring Himself glory then He must banish evil doers from His kingdom.

Because they seek to redefine the rules that God has established in His governance in creation and in the world. God has a real judgement seat and a real place of torment. God must be absolute in His judgements at all times or He would be subject to other judgements. The enemies of God are under the declaration of treason in Gods kingdom and are banished. Not only are they banished by God removes the memory of them from the earth by destroying their descendents. These are real people who suffer like they are banished from a country.

Our enemy is not really the Devil. The Devil does not make evil men choose evil. He does not enter people and cause them to be treasonous to Gods kingdom. The people who have the Devil as their father are brainwashed to twist Gods word and to redefine their citizenship in Gods kingdom. So enemies are real people who seek to destroy the order that God has established on this earth.  The order is from the top to the bottom. So God holds the rulers on this earth in contempt for crimes done to people under them. The order of the world is through Gods view. The Devil holds the world under his power through the enemies of God who work to destroy the poor and oppressed. The system of justice is the foundations of society. When the foundations are destroyed the enemies are in the highest places of authority. Whatever experience we have had in our lives in being trapped in a scheme is magnified in ways that we cannot fathom from Gods view. To lesson the view of an enemy of God is to wish destruction on the poor and oppressed.
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598  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 17, 2013, 11:25:49 AM
mbg

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Reconciliation and justification should not be mixed

I did not ask you that . I asked you to rehearse my points that I made to see if you understand them and why I made them from scripture.

I will rehearse your points when you take all of scripture and not proof text them. I like you because you argue...keep it up.  cheesy
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599  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Self-santification on: July 17, 2013, 11:16:03 AM
Some people say that experiencing confidence in the christian life is a sign of pride. But we are not in name proud. We are saints of the Most High who struggle with pride. But it is not the potent part of the mixture of grace. Pride is extinguished when our desire to do Gods law is crushed into falling on His redemptive covenant. Grace grows stronger because we have built into our wills and automatic reaction to finding blessing.

So we are able to experience a paradigm that is two dimensional. The spiritual dimension is a level that in which the consumption prevents us from retreating back to the past experience. It is the opposite of the world who fall into one dread that prevents them from going back to the simpler days of the past. In this way we distinguish between our experience of being ensnared and their experience of greasing the tracks to eternal destruction. A society that spirals down into depravity is prevented by that level of depravity to climb out of that pit. This is the picture of God giving the whole generation to drunkenness and debauchery.

Only God can deliver a person from the miry clay. Any time we talk about Gods anger or His response to sin it is always in human terms. It is in relational talk and not adamic condition. So when a believer complains about Gods displeasure he is talking about his plight in the struggle. It is Gods gift as our answer to Gods response to the wicked to argue in a magnified way of feeling as if we are overcome with our struggle. We experience sorrows because we know from past experience being under a curse. We have the experience of being bit by a serpent. It is represented as a power that is too strong for us.

Gods works in the normal means through order. This order has been established in us from birth. We receive second and third weights of powers that have no relationship to our personal struggles. God distinguishes real causes from our small view of our struggle. In the christian experience casting off weights is represented by defining our problems as traps instead of holes. We wish to see as God sees so as to create the proper context of our sorrows. Our experience is never the same so we define it as God creates it. In this we are confident in God.
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600  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reconciled to God while enemies ! on: July 17, 2013, 10:49:39 AM
Quote from: Biggie
Ah... the inbetweener theology. God offers and it depends upon us to be saved. Some people say that God is sovereign but man is responsible but He will not be sovereign in our choices. So they create a contradiction by depicting God as someone who reacts to the events of this world in both extremes. God is an impersonal moral code that is set into motion in which He is experienced as the ultimate dread when we sin and a friend when we repent. God is robbed of His power and Christ is robbed of His wealth.

And yet, if Paul meant exactly what he said, Your Big God is willing to condescend so far as to plead with us.  Huh?  What kind of a God is this?  Mind blowing, isn't it?

God condescends to us in our weakness. So He is God in our skin. Which seems to us who are complicated to be without hope. We react in ways that are never the same. But God meets us by enabling us to overcome and He consumes our sorrow, anger, fear and anxiety. There is no love that we experience that meets Gods standard of eternal love. We cannot handle that kind of love but the power of the experience of love is enough to give us a greater experience of glory and the consuming of our sorrows is like taking a sedative from a physician. God comes to us as someone who is able to extinguish us as He is, but responds to us in perfect experienced equilibrium.  
 
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