1726	Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War	on: January 14, 2012, 09:26:26 AM
I hear so much of the positive prayers of saints. But God has a much bigger view about how the He is to be glorified. Ive heard that prayer is made for the missionary endeavors. We pray and the gospel is spread to the world. Ive heard that prayer is for developing a life of holiness..we pray for pain and misery and God will grant us the gift of suffering....lol...ive heard that prayer was only struggling for the lost and then we focus on Joe being saved and we sweat and cry in prayer and then God will save Joe. Ive heard that prayer is for out needs being met. We pray for a new car.. a house.. a peaceful family and then God answers. But God looks at deeper things.. bigger things... things that existed before the creation of the world. God sees beyond our prayers. This is why God has taught us to pray in a way that we focus on our relationship with our Father. Because prayer is not what we can order our lives by but its seeing the world as God sees it. Prayer is not for God. Prayer is for deepening our faith ..its for seeing the world and the heavens as God sees them. Prayer is focused on the glory of God. This is why we must order our prayers in light of Gods free grace and our dependence on this God. Prayer is not what we imagine we are like in this world but prayer is learning who we are by who God is. This is why prayer is the most natural communication that we will ever experience on this earth. Because prayer is our honest communication in light of being in the presence of a personal God. Prayer is not for us to show how much we know. Its not the art of approaching God. But prayer is expressing to God as we were created by Him. Every persons experience in this life is in the prayer in the experience. Its amazing how we pick our personal enjoyments and stress those about how we pray. We all are like the preachers who get up and open themselves up by giving us what they have learned both in knowledge and life experience. We not only hear a message but we see men who are completely opened up before us. We imagine that all of this metaphysical thinking is not related to reality. But we must give up the notion that we order the world. God has spoken and all things come from His pre detemined word. We do not order our lives by prayer but God orders our lives. This is why self denial is so miss understood. A man may think that he is an example of self denial. He may be the most religious guy who looks really organized and well prepared. But God sees all of us in how He moves in this world in light of His focus on redemption. God has a much bigger view than we have and it can become problem in how we pray. We may do a lot of self denial but God sees all the problems and knows all the solutions . God alone knows everyone on a personal level. We only know how things transpire around us. We are terrible at seeing the real problems. Our sin keeps us from focusing on others without counting ourselves. But God orders everyones lives for His good alone and His glory and pleasure. God has a universal view of redemption. Why is it so dangerous to pray our own prayers? Because its just like building an idol. Using words for expressing ourselves is the first why that we become deceived. This is why youve heard that the way a man prays is how you understand the level of his experience before God. And i do not mean using theological techniques to show how much knowledge you have. I mean in prayer we express ourselves in how we apply the wisdom and this moves us to fervent prayer. Prayer is actually coming into the presence of God and being undone and driven to feel a sense of mystery that God must act on a level that we cannot understand or all hope is lost.
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1727  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Hypocrisy: The tribute that hedonism pays to legalism. on: January 14, 2012, 07:38:03 AM Sanctification is predominately a counsel of defense and reconciliation. There is no reason to hold a sin against a believer who is struggling. This is why there is nothing wrong with a christian defending himself. Too often we approach life with total depravity equaling no good reasons for us to protect our lives. But sanctification is individually protective. As we say here there is a difference between trying to prove something that you are not and trying to argue that you are what you do. Both of these are extreme as bad counsel. A believer is not in the position where he needs to see that he is a sinner and he is not longer under the condemnation of the law. These two realities are naturally a part of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. What we are focused on is finding redemption and a solution. Our problem is that we examine ourselves too much. We are self defacing for the wrong reasons. And this is more than just having an indoctrination into a system but its being able to apply it to our situations. This is why i do not write about situations because we are always led by the principle that trust is earned...i mean in the sense that counsel is in relationship and not necessarily a professional interaction. The point being that people are a lot more knowledgeable than we think they are and we are always wanting to direct rather than meet needs.  Reply Quote Notify

1728  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Grace Freedom on: January 14, 2012, 06:49:08 AM God looks at us in Christ. We are completely sanctified. We look our ourselves in light of our sins. God is very simple. He says this is who you are and He does not consider whatever looks to us like its not the way He says. God knows us by His work. But we have self knowledge by our personal experience of guilt ,sorrow, fear and worry. God does not react to us but He disciplines us by His decreed view of our renewal. We on the other hand go up and down and fluctuate ... move away..are inconsistent etc.  But God has given us a thinking, feeling and seeing nature and vision.If we were enabled to envision as a communication of Gods vision then we would never stray. But we are unable to continually think thoughts after God. We experience these powers of our souls and we are overcome by grief. Grief causes us not to trust. What has God given us to deal with out sorrow and grief? He has caused us to mourn over it. Mourning over it is the outlet to clear our vision and to receive daily wisdom. What has God given us to deal with the unjust experience of sorrow and grief caused by the schemes of evil men? He has gifted us with righteous indignation. We can be angry and not sin. God has made us not only to be in a relationship with the exterior circumstances but also how we deal with ourselves. Within this frame work we have hope through our vision of faith.     Remove Reply Quote Notify

1729  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Grace Freedom on: January 14, 2012, 06:32:23 AM Grace and law do not mix. These are not a substances but they produce a state of being by their activity. The law always curses those who are under it. Grace always blesses those who possess it. What does the law do to a believer? It creates a state in which the believer apprehends Christ in child like humility. But the law does not drive the believer to Christ as if it was our school master but our friend. Why because the power of grace in working is more powerful than the condemning state the law produces. If grace was driving us to Christ its doing it through the positive effects of the promise. The law speaks condemnation ..grace speaks a promise. The law is for law breakers. Law breakers are those who are wicked. But the saint is not identified in scripture as a law breaker but has been definitively sanctified in Christ. Who has been set apart unto God. The purpose of the law is to show the value of Christ mercy and grace as that by which we are kept ...kind of like a pain medication...from the destructive nature of the law. We are no longer under the curse of the law. Curses speak death. There is no time where these agents remain dormant but they are always active. This is why it is so important to have assurance. Its the assurance of grace. Because just as grace is active so our faith and the quality of our faith in God are determined by our understanding of living in grace. So grace produces assurance and the law speaks condemnation. But God has provided the sacrifice for our condemnation. Those who are condemned by the law are under the wrath of God. The wrath of God is always as active as God working in the world. God always is both loving and angry. God does not use these agents as if they were alive but God acts both as loving and angry in working in our lives. On the one hand God renews the elect and on the other hand God destroys the reprobate. God cannot look on sin with pleasure. This is why we are assured. Not because of the promise that we have been saved but because we know that God acts as God in how He has gifted us with the means to avoid His displeasure in the active working of the law. We do not look to what we were but we look to the future promise that God will work for our good as these powers of grace overcome our sin..the world.. and the Devil. We are never in a neutral position in this life. God on the one hand makes good our evil and in the same circumstances prepares destruction for the wicked. This is the activity of law and grace.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1730  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Sola Scriptura Chapter 7.... J. Calvin on: January 14, 2012, 05:29:58 AM 2. These ravings are admirably refuted by a single expression of an apostle. Paul testifies that the Church is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,” (Eph. 2:20). If the doctrine of the apostles and prophets is the foundation of the Church, the former must have had its certainty before the latter began to exist. Nor is there any room for the cavil, that though the Church derives her first beginning from thence, it still remains doubtful what writings are to be attributed to the apostles and prophets, until her Judgment is interposed. For if the Christian Church was founded at first on the writings of the prophets, and the preaching of the apostle  that doctrine, wheresoever it may be found, was certainly ascertained and sanctioned antecedently to the Church, since, but for this, the Church herself never could have existed. 7070   The French adds, “Comme le fondement va deuant l’edifice;”—as the foundation goes before the house. Nothings therefore can be more absurd than the fiction, that the power of judging Scripture is in the Church, and that on her nod its certainty depends. When the Church receives it, and gives it the stamp of her authority, she does not make that authentic which was otherwise doubtful or controverted but, acknowledging it as the truth of God, she, as in duty bounds shows her reverence by an unhesitating assent. As to the question, How shall we be persuaded that it came from God without recurring to a decree of the Church? it is just the same as if it were asked, How shall we learn to distinguish light from darkness, white from black, sweet from bitter? Scripture bears upon the face of it as clear evidence of its truth, as white and black do of their colour, sweet and bitter of their taste. 3. I am aware it is usual to quote a sentence of Augustine in which 70he says that he would not believe the gospel, were he not moved by the authority of the Church (Aug. Cont. Epist. Fundament. c. 5). But it is easy to discover from the context, how inaccurate and unfair it is to give it such a meaning. He was reasoning against the Manichees, who insisted on being implicitly believed, alleging that they had the truth, though they did not show they had. But as they pretended to appeal to the gospel in support of Manes, he asks what they would do if they fell in with a man who did not even believe the gospel—what kind of argument they would use to bring him over to their opinion. He afterwards adds, “But I would not believe the gospel,” &c.; meaning, that were he a stranger to the faith, the only thing which could induce him to embrace the gospel would be the authority of the Church. And is it any thing wonderful, that one who does not know Christ should pay respect to men? Remove Reply Quote Notify

1731  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Faith - a gift from God? on: January 13, 2012, 02:28:05 PM Here is one guy who is universally liked. I would even walk the tight rope with him.... lol Wesley's Notes 2:8 By grace ye are saved through faith - Grace, without any respect to human worthiness, confers the glorious gift. Faith, with an empty hand, and without any pretence to personal desert, receives the heavenly blessing. And this is not of yourselves - This refers to the whole preceding clause, That ye are saved through faith, is the gift of God. Some more commentaries Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary 2:1-10 Sin is the death of the soul. A man dead in trespasses and sins has no desire for spiritual pleasures. When we look upon a corpse, it gives an awful feeling. A never-dying spirit is now fled, and has left nothing but the ruins of a man. But if we viewed things aright, we should be far more affected by the thought of a dead soul, a lost, fallen spirit. A state of sin is a state of conformity to this world. Wicked men are slaves to Satan. Satan is the author of that proud, carnal disposition which there is in ungodly men; he rules in the hearts of men. From Scripture it is clear, that whether men have been most prone to sensual or to spiritual wickedness, all men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath. What reason have sinners, then, to seek earnestly for that grace which will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! God's eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace. Sinners roll themselves in the dust; sanctified souls sit in heavenly places, are raised above this world, by Christ's grace. The goodness of God in converting and saving sinners heretofore, encourages others in after-time, to hope in his grace and mercy. Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not of works, lest any man should boast. These things are not brought to pass by any thing done by us, therefore all boasting is shut out. All is the free gift of God, and the effect of being quickened by his power. It was his purpose, to which he prepared us, by blessing us with the knowledge of his will, and his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, or accuse it of any tendency to evil. All who do so, are without excuse. Here is the technical interpretation Geneva Study Bible For by {h} grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (h) So then, grace, that is to say, the gift of God, and faith, stand with one another, to which two it is contrary to be saved by ourselves, or by our works. Therefore, what do those mean who would join together things of such contrary natures? Vincent's Word Studies For by grace, etc. This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:7. And that Not faith, but the salvation. Of God Emphatic. Of God is it the gift.  Its almost saying that grace and salvation are one and the same. As i have been saying that salvation is in God alone and how does one obtain salvation other than God bringing that man into it not that man reaching up to get it. That little greek article just ruined your whole day..lol  Reply Quote Notify

1732  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: OF THE WORK OF THE HOLY GHOST IN OUR SALVATION... Thomas Goodwin on: January 13, 2012, 09:37:35 AM [8.] The work of faith is of his operation; and therefore he is styled 'The Spirit of faith,' 2 Cor. iv. 18. And the same Spirit that wrought faith in the New Testament, is said to have done it in the Old, as that place shews; 2 Cor. iv. 18, 'We having the same Spirit of faith,' &c.; the same which David and they in the Old Testament had. It is therefore also, that to be full of the Holy Ghost and of faith are joined; Acts vi. 5, 'Stephen, a man full of faith, and of the Holy Ghost:' also Barnabas is said to be 'a man full of the Holy Ghost, and of faith,' Acts xi. 24. Let us view some special acts of faith, and see how the working of them is ascribed to the Holy Ghost. First; He gave thee a spiritual sight of Christ and God's free grace, which drew thy heart unto them. He gave thee a sight of God's free grace, when thon hadst seen thy sins and thy undone condition, and thy heart was thrown off the hinges of thy former hopes on self-righteousness, and the bladders of presumptions upon God's mercy upon false grounds pricked and fallen; and thou wert left utterly at the loss, and knewest not what to do to be saved. Who was it opened to thee the first ' door of hope ' (Hosea ii.), and gave thee the first ken, hint, and glimpse of grace and mercy; and that God would abundantly and freely pardon thee, if thou wouldst seek him and ply thyself to him? Who was it then that laid before thee that all-sufficient righteousness of faith; and that did set thy heart on work to seek it? Even the good Spirit, who is therefore called 'The spirit of grace and supplication,' Zech. xii. 10.  He became a Spirit of grace, in making a discovery of that rich and free grace in God's heart to be inclining towards thee, and therewith became the Spirit of supplication in thee, inflaming thee, as a condemned man for life, to seek after that grace and pardoning mercy in God. And from thence he led thee to the cross of Christ, and made and set such a lively picture of him, as crucified before thine eyes (Gal. iii. 1), as all angels' and men could never have portrayed, no more, yea, infinitely far less, than they can the sun. It was he, the same Spirit of grace, that did it; and so it follows, Zech. xii. 10, ' And they shall look upon him whom they have pierced.' Thus also, John xvi. 8, it is said, 'When he is come, he shall convince the world of righteousness' (which Christ there enumerates as the Spirit's second work in calling us); even of that all-sufficient righteousness of Christ, offered up for satisfaction to the Father; who was 'made sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.' And when the word of faith sounded in thy heart and ears, thou hadst not eyes to see it; therefore this ' fountain for sin and uncleanness to wash in ' must bo 'opened' (as it is said, Zech. xiii. 1), or men descry it not. Thou wert ready to perish for thirst, as Hagar was, Gen. xxi., and lifted up thy voice and weptest. But as God opened her eyes, and she saw a well (ver. 19) just by her: so did the Spirit thine, to spy out Christ and his righteousness, which is hid unto the world. As I heard one say on his deathbed, Oh! where had I been if I had not spied out Christ! It was this Spirit of grace who caused thee to look towards him, and first set thy eyes and heart to see him, and look on him that was pierced, as all that are saved should be brought to do, as they did on the brazen serpent, John iii. 14, 15. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1733  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Faith - a gift from God? on: January 13, 2012, 09:32:32 AM The verse in question is saying that the salvation which is grace through faith is all a gift of God. For by grace are you saved through faith. And that (salvation) not of yourselves... etc Reply Quote Notify

1734  Forums / Theology Forum / Sola Scriptura Chapter 7.... J. Calvin on: January 13, 2012, 09:23:55 AM THE TESTIMONY OF THE SPIRIT NECESSARY TO GIVE FULL AUTHORITY TO SCRIPTURE. THE IMPIETY OF PRETENDING THAT THE CREDIBILITY OF SCRIPTURE DEPENDS ON THE JUDGMENT OF THE CHURCH. Section. 1. The authority of Scripture derived not from men, but from the Spirit of God. Objection, That Scripture depends on the decision of the Church. Refutation, I. The truth of God would thus be subjected to the will of man. II. It is insulting to the Holy Spirit. III. It establishes a tyranny in the Church. IV. It forms a mass of errors. V. It subverts conscience. VI. It exposes our faith to the scoffs of the profane. 2. Another reply to the objection drawn from the words of the Apostle Paul. Solution of the difficulties started by opponents. A second objection refuted. 3. A third objection founded on a sentiment of Augustine considered. 4. Conclusion, That the authority of Scripture is founded on its being spoken by God. This confirmed by the conscience of the godly, and the consent of all men of the least candour. A fourth objection common in the mouths of the profane. Refutation. 5. Last and necessary conclusion, That the authority of Scripture is sealed on the hearts of believers by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The certainty of this testimony. Confirmation of it from a passage of Isaiah, and the experience of believers. Also, from another passage of Isaiah. 1. Before proceeding farther, it seems proper to make some observations on the authority of Scripture, in order that our minds may not only be prepared to receive it with reverence, but be divested of all doubt. When that which professes to be the Word of God is acknowledged to be so, no person, unless devoid of common sense and the feelings of a man, will have the desperate hardihood to refuse credit to the speaker. But since no daily responses are given from heaven, and the Scriptures are the only records in which God has been pleased to consign his truth to perpetual remembrance, the full authority which they ought to possess with the faithful is not recognised, unless they are believed to have come from heaven, as directly as if God had been heard giving utterance to them. This subject well deserves to be treated more at large, and pondered more accurately. But my readers will pardon me for having more regard to what my plan admits than to what the extent of this topic requires. A most pernicious error has very generally prevailed—viz. that Scripture is of importance only in so far as conceded to it by the suffrage of the Church; as if the eternal and inviolable truth of God could depend on the will of men. With great insult to the Holy 69Spirit, it is asked, who can assure us that the Scriptures proceeded from God; who guarantee that they have come down safe and unimpaired to our times; who persuade us that this book is to be received with reverence, and that one expunged from the list, did not the Church regulate all these things with certainty? On the determination of the Church, therefore, it is said, depend both the reverence which is due to Scripture, and the books which are to be admitted into the canon. Thus profane men, seeking, under the pretext of the Church, to introduce unbridled tyranny, care not in what absurdities they entangle themselves and others, provided they extort from the simple this one acknowledgement—viz. that there is nothing which the Church cannot do. But what is to become of miserable consciences in quest of some solid assurance of eternal life, if all the promises with regard to it have no better support than man’s Judgment? On being told so, will they cease to doubt and tremble? On the other hand, to what jeers of the wicked is our faith subjected—into how great suspicion is it brought with all, if believed to have only a precarious authority lent to it by the good will of men? Reply Quote Notify

1735  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Grace Freedom on: January 12, 2012, 03:39:24 PM If God has given us a free will in the sense of libertarian dont you think that the offer of salvation would be according to how God sees it? If God was other in His being good dont you think He would have the ability of persuasion that goes beyond our power to even exist? lol.. So the first thing we need to understand about free grace is that its only as free as God is big. lol We must understand that God wants a thankful heart because all of creation is a gift for us to enjoy and prosper from. Everything that we are and have is a gift from God. But we cannot offer anything of value that would equal Gods value of His goodness expressed. This is why He has made it in our receiving not only the gifts but the ability to see Him as a God of all grace to enjoy our receiving by presenting ourselves with nothing but to praise Him. God is so simple that we say and do things that are foolish because we think its got to be really complicated and hard to achieve. Free in Gods vocabulary is something good that we cannot fathom given to us freely. lol Can a receiver of a gift find any thing good in his being the recipient of that gift? Of course not. Its all good from Gods side. Its all gifted from our side. How do we look at Gods grace? We do not start with the fundamental position of justification but we always start with Gods covenant to us. We look at Gods love in how He has created all the good that we enjoy. When we look at what God has made and all the value in that creation we find that Gods love is eternal. We can never out need His love. This is why we find no reason to believe that we are good enough to find value in our own goodness. Because God gifts us all things to enjoy by the love He has as He created all things. This gives us a real dependence and a desire to come to God. If we are to enjoy God for all eternity we must be free in being loved by Him.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1736  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Hypocrisy: The tribute that hedonism pays to legalism. on: January 12, 2012, 03:12:29 PM The bible puts value in the transaction as it follows the inward path of suppression of truth. In other words i do not think that a rule or law violated is what God determines in owing something. But its man trading the truth for his own importance. Because all that is valuable in this world is seen in who God is and what He has done or will do. So men trade the living God for a dead idol. This is what is so deceptive about the value of things. Because the world is a place were powerful men have sold their souls to dead things. The bible looks at the returns and it puts them into perspective were as what the world sees is what looks like value. This is why every thought is going to be accounted for by God because He does not look at the value of the success but the motive. God must be God in all things or He is not the true God.  God will not allow men to produce good things without a full accounting of the motive in that value. This is why men are blind to real value unless God reveals Himself. God must be seen as the cause of all good things and the end for which they are purposed. The first order of a true motive is to give God His due in our thankfulness and praise as the creator of all good.    The Psalmist said that men were sacrificing the bought and sold animals on the altar and these checks and balances were a stench to His nostrils. Think about this. Here are men who bring their offering that they worked for and provided for their sins and God was worn out. Where is the value in Gods view? Its in the knowledge that He made the sacrifice and He owned the cattle on a thousand hills. They were putting value on their efforts in obeying God but God saw no value in this without first giving God the glory in all things. The free gift attitude. This is closely tied to our understanding of the value of Gods righteousness. Unless man sees that he is unable to please God in bringing his gifts then that man will never see true righteousness. Because true righteousness goes out before our steps and prepares a way. lol There is no value in our own righteous acts but its seeing the success in what Christ has already obtained.  This is terribly important. We must come to the acknowledgement that its not in looking at ourselves as being necessary in God advancing His goodness but we must conclude that there is nothing of success that we are involved with unless the ability was given to us prior to our doing it. We must acknowledge our bankruptcy and praise God that all of the good in our lives is gifted to us. This praise will last for eternity. It has real value.   Reply Quote Notify

1737  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: January 12, 2012, 12:55:45 PM These psalms were memorized by Christ and it was said that He prayed with strong cries and tears. Now listen this may be Davids experience but these are Gods words. Do you understand that? In other words the problems that David faced and his overcoming them through the power of God are Christ resurrection power on display! These words are the will of God by the Holy Spirit who prays on our behalf.  These prayers are God intervening in time and bringing in His King!These Psalms are quoted by the Holy Spirit more than any other ot book in the NT!  So the Holy Spirit through inspiration and not through human experience wrote prayers and praises to advance Gods kingdom. If we deny the truth in the Psalms we really are denying the infallible inspiration in Tim. All the bible is a rule for us.  Remove Reply Quote Notify

1738  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritual Experiences on: January 12, 2012, 12:28:58 PM Kk ignores my points. I was saying that illumination is an act by which we receive wisdom. Kk just ignored it as if it has nothing to do with obedience.  I tell him that our goal as the apostle says.. I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection. The apostle was going further than the word on a page. But Kk completely ignored this because the end of his faith is principles. \ I said that Christ was physically present in heaven. Kk said no He is in us. If Christ was physically in us that would be funny. lol But Kk ignored my point about this invisible aspect of our faith and narrowed it down to obedience. He only obeys what he acknowledges and not the whole counsel. Kk cant acknowledge the more weightier matters of the law which are all inanimate experiences of Gods communication... like love, mercy and compassion.    Remove Reply Quote Notify

1739  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: January 12, 2012, 12:15:51 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on January 11, 2012, 01:26:04 PM mbG:  "I can deal with this misunderstanding of this group. But they do not even accept your position that God has reconciled the whole world. lol That is not even an evangelical position." K_k:  It is always good, mbG, to compare your "position" with the actual wording of Scripture, which is very valuable for reproof and correction, as It says. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.  For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." K_k:  You might notice that God is in Christ "reconciling the world", and not counting their sins against them, in Christ.  The reconciliation is complete and available to all people, as many as will receive Him as their unending Life.  And Believers are to be ambassadors imploring people, all people, to accept the reconciliation our Dad has freely provided.  Those who reject reconciliation are choosing to be lost in the End. You might want to modify your position to fit Scripture instead of the other way around. mbG:  "This really is a Calvinistic site. Steve teaches real grace. Thats why Steve welcomes all of the different views. Kks been teaching annihilation and Palegianism for quite awhile. I think we have been very accepting. If you talk to Kk you would think it was his site. lol" K_k:  This is a site named "freedomandgrace.com".  Freedom and grace aren't calvinistic, they are Scriptural.  As long as those who hold to calvin's-ism remain in close harmony with the Word of God, they will know real grace and freedom.  And to the degree any person moves away from the exact wording of Scripture, the more they will discard or limit both freedom and grace. I don't teach "annihilationism", but rather what the Bible actually says, that the lost will be destroyed, both body and soul (according to Jesus), so that we will only see dead bodies in the Lake of Fire which burns forever (according to Isaiah), like dead branches burned up completely, a Second Death which is final since the lost have no immortal bodies. I don't teach "pelagianism" since i don't even know all the details of what that is.  I share about the love of God, Who in His sovereignty gives us freedom to rebel against Him as long as we can hold out against His love and revelations of Himself.  And i point out that He could force us all to believe but chooses to let us decide whether we want to be in intimate union with Him forever as His kids or be eliminated along with all sin and evil when the new Kingdom is established. In other words, our Dad is much more loving and compassionate, and fair/just, than much standard theology portrays, in fact, infinitely so.  You can try to apply labels to what i am sharing from Scripture, but that just confuses the real issue, which is what the Word actually says, in contrast to what the traditions of mankind say it says. So, carry on.  I appreciate the practise you provide me on being patient with those who constantly misrepresent me.  Frustrating sometimes, yes, but good for growth ultimately, so i believe it is from Christ, Who is often misrepresented in the teachings of "theologicians".   By the way, i appreciate the freedom and grace i have been given here to present the Truth of the Bible, and to appeal to readers to get back to the very words He chose to give us, which have often been so distorted over the centuries.  But, no, i don't think this is my site  -- actually you, mbG, have many more pages of posts than i do, but i'm almost as wordy, (and may be catching up with you) i admit.   Kk has a half way God. In his way of biblical interpretation every thing that God does has a fine print explanation under the head sharing with God. lol Ive discussed these  words world.. all... everyone etc and shown Kk that they cannot be translated the same way every time. He says that i am not explaining his position truthfully. And yet his whole position is what we do on our part in our sharing with God to obtain Gods promises. His words are that God brings us to a place what we let go and then we learn to share the power of God as we deny ourselves. And yet all of the history of these theologians who spent countless hours in word studies are denied by Kk as he presents a very puzzling case of his own world view. lol Not only does he talk about anialiation.. of which he does not like to hear the truth with this historical word but he does not even respond to my arguments in the past but just ignores clear logic for his argument that i am miss representing his position. I show him a text in which John the baptist who was baptizing in the Jordan was said to baptize everyone in the surrounding area. This everyone cannot incude the pharisees who visited daily unless they were apprehended by a secret ban of man and forced into the water. But Kk swears that i am miss representing his position. He cannot acknowledge in the face of more learned men and my own understanding of greek that everyone does not mean all men. If in fact everyone was at peace with God then all men would be saved. In the normal speech of kk his one principle of making peace with all men through self atoning by making this principle absolute ... that he in fact acknowledges there are men who are at odds with one another. But he cannot even accept simple language that God only reconciles to those who do not say i want nothing to do with God. lol Unless of course i am reconciled to all men who are at odds with me. What good would that rule be? KK Not only this but Kk also has fine print when it comes to the bibles usage of the prepositions that surround what Christ accomplished on the cross. The prepositions in...in the place of...for the purpose of ...under the power of...etc only have weight in the words that are not seen in the text. Kk not only rejects and cannot explain the historical position the professionals but he is universally accepting of all men because God loves all men. Of course professionals who work share in Kks work for God and us Calvinist there is a sure condemnation of our position. Real love there. huh? Remove Reply Quote Notify

1740	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Hypocrisy: The tribute that hedonism pays to legalism.	on: January 12, 2012, 10:00:45 AM
Hedonism is not a bad word. I mean the sensual desires in man are from God. Does God take away the sensual desires when we are saved? No he provides the basis for them to be enjoyed in the patriarchal structure. That is having a fundamental respect for institutions as the basis of real expression of these passions. We define this kind of paradigm as first respecting the authority of the father and mother. The family works as a unit as long as there are no breakdowns in these old institutions within frame work established by society. We always go from the majority opinion to the minority. But this is not really biblical. Instead the bible says that a society can be undone in one generation. A nation can become wicked by one ruler. So we see that once these institutions are hated then there are long term effects. The long term effects have within them the basis of all the confusion that is seen. When there is no respect for the old institutions of the family structure then there is no reasonable short term solution. We are talking about something far more sinister than trying to reverse this confusion by a simple program or law. What we are talking about are the fundamental problem with the lost yrs of childhood instruction. This is why proverbs warns about this family unit being spread into the streets. A kind of prostitution not just in a physical sense but in how communication is expressed outside of the authority structure of a family. In my understanding of this warning is that there is a window of learning in the childhood yrs that is the fundamental instruction for saving that person from never returning to wisdom. Now in this mass confusion we are talking about an identity crisis. Everyone develops their own image as a replacement of their true self. I believe that all men are blind to themselves without Christ but there are consequences of pagan influences on a large scale. We can only go one way. We stay from this path and we are not true to ourselves. This is called the path of the fear of God. This path offers the opportunity of mess up people to provide the instruction in this patriarchal motif. It makes us focus on the simple things ..the still small voices .. as the answering of our own personal needs as we focus on meeting the needs of the most vulnerable in society. This is why God must define how we are to live in a patriarchal sense lest our principles and our individual way of expressing ourselves as families spills into the streets. I hold these things close to my heart in light of how my children are prospering. I believe they start with the personal battles in a very violent way.  The prayers that takes heaven by force.         1741  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Hypocrisy: The tribute that hedonism pays to legalism. on: January 11, 2012, 03:59:24 PM I dont think we can define one at the expense of the other.( church-world) Both are organized with sinners. But both world is not just the checks and balances in reality but rather what we think they are. lol This is why the Word of God is really Gods spoken will. Its really God speaking into reality whatever will transpire from the beginning of time to the end. We can only be sure of one thing. Its what God says about these two worlds that define how they are going to impact the self. Ive seen people in the world who understand grace more than some in the church. Ive seen people in the world who are better able to get along with one another that some church folks. But ive come to believe that just after the 70s we redefined how we talk about society by the introduction of socialism as an intricate scheme to encourage a one world way of communicating. I saw this in college when i took social science. Now this language is part of the christian communication. We go from God to the new social order. In fact we dont even connect pre 70s communication with how all of this social communication has change so that we can get a true comparison. We have redefined the patriarchal structure of communication and not even blinked an eye in the christian context of reality. What we need to see is that there are only one source of super-naturalism. Its the only words that are ordering all ages. These words.. each word in the bible are really words from God. They are counted words of God. Outside of this one book all the other words are only mens words. We are not even allowed to add one word to these 66 books. So these words are so important that they determine not only the quality of our lives but they determine how we are going to view ourselves and others. The words of God are what we live by. We are to feed our souls on these words. In the christian context then everyone around us is defined by how they are in relation to what they think is important in comparison to these words of life. lol     Reply Quote Notify 1742  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritual Experiences on: January 10, 2012, 02:40:37 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on January 09, 2012, 01:02:29 PM mbG:  "Kk You understand your philosophy of addiction but you drop the ball when we talk about biblical doctrine. You should be as concerned for what God says as what you consider successful. Its the difference between God actually being present or someone trusting in a mystical power. Mystical powers are sooooo destructive." K_k:  Just keep in mind, mbG, that Christ is the only Healer, it is He Who recovers addicts from their sin addictions.  No mystical power.  I agree you (and everyone else) should stay away from such experiences.  When God is present there will be healing and recovery, not always in the exact form we think we should be healed, but He knows what is best. Again i caution you not to get too involved in emotional experiences which may at the time seem very spiritual.  Brain chemistry, body states, and medications can affect the emotions and distort the feelings, which may not be from God as much as we may want to believe.  He may later have to show us from Scripture how we didn't quite have it right, though it felt good at the time. Kk the end of our salvation is knowing Christ who resides in heaven. Not being cleaned up to feel a sense of accomplishment on this earth. Did you know that the fear of God is not described as someone who sees obedience as his goal but its knowing God. Its seeing God...hearing God...having a sense of otherness when God is present. But the end of the wicked is what they did not do. It was what they did not obey. Did you know the end goal of the righteous is not to show they are free of addictions but its to seek the refuge of God so that we are hidden from the wicked? lol The end of our salvation is to seek God for God. To glorify God by enjoying HIm forever. How is this described in the human experience? Its described in mystical terms like being led to a place that is higher than we are... how do you find a place that is higher than yourself? Seriously... put on that thinking cap and stop quoting things you do not think about. Get rid of the old leaven of rules and start to take scripture and chew the cud. Ask God to do something mystical to you like experiencing illumination. lol  I ask you as one who has talked till i am blue in the face to put down your preconceived ideas and find the Person that is invisible. lol Here is how the bible uses analogies of real things to create invisible things as real. It uses light to show that God is beyond our understanding of joy...peace...love...faithfulness...goodness..kindness. All of these attributes are only necessary not because they originate from us but because God gets glory by radiating them and then receiving the glory for being unmixed in their being present. This is what we call the revealing of God as He is. Its like the light that shines in our faces. This light is God as He is but its veiled so that we are not totally consumed. How do we explain that we do not see a light but yet we have met God?!! We know it by having a mystical experience of new life. We radiate the light from the inner man rite through our face. What is this experience? Its being filled with all these attributes that i have been saying ...that we have not worked up but that come from a foreign source from the Holy Spirit. When we have experienced the light of the glory of God we will know we have met God!   Remove Reply Quote Notify 1743  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Faith - a gift from God? on: January 10, 2012, 02:05:44 PM Quote from: Lone Arranger on January 10, 2012, 11:40:08 AM Quote Faith comes by hearing which comes through the implanted word of God. The verse you refer to, Romans 10:17, actual states, "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."  It doesn't say faith comes by hearing the word of God.  It says faith comes by hearing AND hearing comes by the word of God.  I'm being picky, but I think it's important to point out that hearing the word of God without the Holy Spirit enabling us to hear (making the soil of our hearts soft) will produce no results. I think the more correct translation would be, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the Holy Spirit enlightening the word of God to our hearts." Heb 11 "1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. " Faith begins in the fear of God. Because we are talking about a way of thinking and then believing. Confidence comes with knowing God. So there is a state of faithlessness. All men are born without a saving knowledge of God. There is evidence that God exist but they do not know God. All have turned aside. All together have become corrupted there is no one who seeks after God no not one. So this cannot be remedied by human ability but by divine intervention. This is why God examines the heart. Because God holds every man responsible for how he views himself and others. The natural man does not know spiritual things. He does not have God in his thoughts .Because He does not have God in his thoughts the natural man does not fear God. The natural man does not think that God will hold him accountable for rejecting God. But it does not stop at just his not thinking about God but it goes on to what he does to his neighbor. In rejecting God ..having no fear of God... he makes himself god. In making himself god then he seeks to scheme against his neighbor. But the man who has saving faith...fears God and therefore seeks after God. The man of faith knows through his knowledge of God that God will have a day of accounting. Instead of fearing retribution the saint rejoices that God will reward the saints and punish the wicked. Now listen this fearing God is not necessarily in acts of obedience but its that the saint has a natural soft heart that has a sense of helplessness and will not trust in his own strength. The saint will find comfort in falling back on God as his only hope in this life. This obedience is seen in words like... taking refuge in God... or calling upon God...or pleading the promises....or making a bold statement in preaching to himself that the saint trust in God alone! In other words its more than just thinking thoughts after God but it apprehending all the promises through taking refuge in God alone.   Reply Quote Notify 1744  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: If you love me, you will obey what I command. on: January 10, 2012, 12:00:08 PM Deut. 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 7 The LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. 8 You will again obey the LORD and follow all his commands I am giving you today. 9 Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, 10 if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Anytime you see the choice its in this context. And having meditated in your own worship book let me just remind you of the teaching. God makes a covenant with the nation of Israel. This grace covenant provides all that the people need. It provides the strength to do all they need to do. But the covenant is not just a promise but its the proof of Gods faithfulness on display. The reason that God spoke these words of obedience to the people was that He was not just talking to His elect within the Nation. But God was speaking in a way of Monarchy. God was telling the people as a Nation that if they rejected Him as a nation then He would send them into exile..etc Gods national warnings were different from His personal care as a Shepherd of His church... got to go will continue this Any time you see the two covenants together you will see that the grace covenant precedes and ends in the grace covenant. In other words it provides the basis of the ability to not necessarily to obey but to continue on in the advancement of the gospel. Obedience is believing what has already been accomplished. This is proved by God providing the sacrifice before he actually gave man the remedy. So the object of our faith is deliverance. Not just once but ongoing deliverance. The object of our faith is not just to receive grace in time of need but to receive the final grace when we stand before Christ. So we are looking beyond this earth to our real home. This is why the covenant of grace puts salvation in God alone. Because its more than an action but its a determination to keep ourselves from idols not only the outward ones but the ones of the heart. We may practice offering sacrifices but if the object of our faith was to offer rite sacrifices then the standard of offering rite sacrifices is not in the sacrifice itself but its in holding onto the deliverance as His faithful servant. The deliverance promised in the gospel.This deliverance is by grace through a promise. Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire but my ears have you pierced. This is not only in the sense that God destroyed the old will and put a new heart into that elect but that God proves Himself faithful in bringing the saint to his final deliverance. We are His servants who plead His promises on this grace basis.  Reply Quote Notify 1745  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Faith - a gift from God? on: January 10, 2012, 11:16:41 AM Faith comes by hearing which comes through the implanted word of God. So faith is an implantation through Gods call and regeneration. All men are dead in trespasses and sins. This means that all men stand ready upon their passing to receive the full curse of their sins. Every failure to meet the laws requirement is to face the curses of the law. The aliveness of the curses of the law are what defines the relationship man experiences as an anxious person to God. This is why all men who are born seek to suppress God. They will not come to God because of the law working in them fully through the curses to produce death and dread. Mans condition is not that he is just sick but man without God withholding the full call of the curse is subject to be destroyed by mans own natural faculties as man experiences the full condemnation of the law. Man is born in a state of misery and death. This is so bad that man in rejecting the clear evidences of the existence of God actually does things in this life to prove that he is not what God has said. Not only does man turn from God but man tries to prove that he is not cursed by God and that is his real experience. This is what is so awful about being under the law. Man in trying to prove that he alone is rite rejects God and then schemes to do good but all that man does is act against the clear standards that God alone has said God will do. In rejecting God man rejects himself. In rejecting God mans ways actually work to destroy himself. The doctrine of original sin offers no remedy to man unless God comes and reveals Himself to man. This is why even our confidence who know God is nothing. This is so bad..this war of God and Satan that God must do everything. God must establish the rule and hold to it or we would be left to explain what who God is and try to produce enough evidence to a man that would be sufficient to save that man.We would begin to look at the message instead of focusing on the covenant keeping God. If we fail to see this awful predicament that the world is in. That there is no hope of making it better then we will not have any confidence in our saying the rite things.   Reply Quote Notify 1746  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: January 10, 2012, 10:59:41 AM Quote from: billbennett on January 09, 2012, 07:12:23 PM Quote Bill ive said that a person communicates to others exactly how he sees himself in his position as he communicates the message. I agree Tom. It is wise to remember where we were when Christ found us and saved us by His grace. And not only that, but even as believers we still have a sin nature and still often choose to disobey God. Without the saving work of Christ on the cross we are all without hope. It is good news, as our preacher brought out yesterday, that in addition to being identified with his death, that we have also been identified with Him in His ressurection. That we are raised with Him to walk in newness of life. That by the Spirit, Christ lives in us, and He is our hope of glory. That it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us. These are all objective truths, and their appropriation into our subjective experience here on earth is the process that we call sanctification. As we behold Christ in His word we are transformed, from grace to grace, by the Spirit of the Lord. And yet this process is never fully completed in a believers life until we see Him. [Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as He is.] I John 3:2 One of my best friends, Gordy, used to love this verse. He is gone home to be with Jesus, but I remember him saying with excitement in his voice: "If that doesn't ring your bell, the clapper is broke!!" That one day, either by the undertaker or the uppertaker, we are going home. And the first face we will see will be that of our beloved Savior. In an instant, at that very moment, we will see Him fully and completely, and be changed. To be just like Him. Forever. Bill Bill the only time God actually spoke judgement was in the garden. If you look God was not giving a clear picture of repentance as an offer based upon mans Adams response but God came to man with a remedy. If you recall man tried to seek God with the leaves. Man was trying to repent just after his fall. But God did not make an issue of this self repentance but God pronounced judgement and then gave a remedy. The only time after the fall that God made it a clear choice of man was as an offer for man to destroy himself. The whole focus on mans original sin and the remedy was in God coming to man and not man going to God. What was the first sacrifice? It was Abel's sacrifice of an animal and Cains sacrifice of his fruit he had picked. But the bible is silent as to why God accepted Abels sacrifice and not Cains. Because they both were enjoying the teaching that God gave the remedy. They both belonged as if they were a part of Gods covenant of love. But we see that the silence was to show that God alone decides. Then we come to the call of Abram. Here is a man who worshiped the sun god. He was not exactly a true recipient of repentance. Now this is interesting. God did not come to Abram with the message of the cross but God came with a covenant in which God would establish Abram on the basis of this covenant that come down to man. And the apostle even says there was only one reason that Abram was justified by faith and it was his bringing to God his sun god. lol In other words he was justified by falling on his own sword. lol Why did not God present the gospel to these saints in the ot? Why did they accept the fact that there was a coming Redeemer without knowing all the facts as to what this redeemer was about? Because God gave them a faith that was irrevocable as the covenant He made with Abram.  When the ot talks about faith it is always in this context. Because you cant have God coming down to man with just the gospel message fully implemented. If the gospel is not of man but God then even those who were circumcised enjoyed the blessings of the covenant and were confident in some way of this love covenant. This is why they approached God with some kind of offering. But we see their whole focus was on their own repentance through the sacrifice and not a true heart of thankfulness.  This is what is so deceptive about changing the covenant motif and making it just a message to accept. Because God actually was not looking at the sacrifice of repentance as that by which He was seen as all glorious. But God wanted a thankful heart. He wanted them to see that God alone should get the glory. That it was not in them to obey by bringing their offering but it was in Gods promise of His love that brought them to rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of God. Any time man is given the proposition of God to work in order to prove his own obedience it is in the context of self repentance. But when a man actually knows that he cannot obtain Gods favor in this way that man will lay down these fighting words to feel guilty and blameable and will look to Gods love alone. The true saints puts all his confidence in Gods covenant love.     Reply Quote Notify 1747  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Grace Freedom on: January 10, 2012, 08:47:03 AM Are you saying that God has not reconciled the world to Himself and they stand in a position of being at odds with God? And this means that He has only reconciled His elect? Im trying to be very clear about this because it is fundamental to how we define sanctification. Theres only one rite answer. lol    Remove Reply Quote Notify 1748  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: January 10, 2012, 08:29:39 AM Quote from: dohwid on January 09, 2012, 10:18:59 PM Good healthy debate, extreme passion is not. Blinds reason, it does. This definition of debate, i operate under. A honest seeking of the reality of a particular topic by one or more individuals. Argument and strife have no place in a healthy debate. We not sitting physically in a group and discussing things. Anyone of us could be a mass murdered and come on here be the nicest person on the forum. This is all very impersonal. If you want to hug me just go hug someone else that you are physically present with. If you want to teach on how to get along as the reason you come here then start a thread on how to get along. I love when people write what they really believe. Thats what we try to encourage here. Its rite in front of everyone. It is the most honest display. When people open up about what they believe then its the one thing that is above all of the other things like talking about style or attitudes. This really is a Calvinistic site. Steve teaches real grace. Thats why Steve welcomes all of the different views. Kks been teaching annihilation and Palegianism for quite awhile. I think we have been very accepting. If you talk to Kk you would think it was his site. lol Theres no more unreasonableness displayed than to come into a thread in which a discussion is going on about a certain subject and your interjecting style over substance.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 1749  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: If you love me, you will obey what I command. on: January 09, 2012, 10:12:49 AM Quote from: Lone Arranger on January 09, 2012, 09:55:42 AM Have you noticed that whatever the question is, the answer is love?   If you study the bible the confrontation motif is one eighth of the way we are to deal with people. God is not an equal opportunity God. He does the work by His Spirit. We are not the Holy Spirit. We are just beggars helping other beggars find bread. The anger is toward those who are in the category of the wicked. But when we are dealing with our brothers the curse has been lifted. There is no reason we should be angry with another believer. If God has laid aside His anger toward His children then what gives us the rite to take it up? Tough love is a psychological controlling method. It makes that an intricate part of change.   Reply Quote Notify 1750  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: January 09, 2012, 09:48:55 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on January 08, 2012, 05:40:32 PM mbG:  "Kks assertion that God has reconciled the reprobate...which is a past tense verb and cannot be used in Kks teaching that God looks at the future through this universal reconciliation. So Kk stands on the same side of the issue as universalism." K_k:  No, not quite.  I don't accept universalism since it is clear that many people will not accept the reconciliation which is being offered.  And they will be destroyed in the End.  But for now, that reconciliation, through Christ, is offered to all mankind.  Does God know which ones of us will accept the offer before we die?  Sure. Yet He does make it available for all to accept forgiveness and unending Life in Christ.  The Cross was sufficient for all sin for all men for all time. But He will not force anyone to receive regeneration and a new immortal nature, an unending existence with Him.  And no one will be able to say that they had no opportunity to be "saved" or that God isn't perfectly fair/just. It's a Great Plan, mbG, you just need to look more closely at it to see the perfection of it. mbG:  "The complications of the gospel are a necessary in order to guard its simplicity." K_k:  Some of the complications theologicians have piled onto the Bible are not safeguards but barriers to understanding.  The Truth is much simpler than we have been taught by theology (which sells books and CD's and courses and gives good salaries at seminaries and cemetaries). Sir ive read just about everything you have written. I like long post. lol But seriously you go one step further than sufficient and efficient argument. I can deal with this misunderstanding of this group. But they do not even accept your position that God has reconciled the whole world. lol That is not even an evangelical position.  You deny orthodoxy in the same way a person would go into the constitution and take an eraser to those statements that they disagree with. I dont even think you can state historical views because you just make this stuff up as long as it agrees with your 12 rules.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 1751  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: January 09, 2012, 09:43:49 AM Quote from: dohwid on January 08, 2012, 10:23:45 PM The elder one speaks truth. You would do well to set aside your pride mbg and listen in order to understand. You fill an entire page to say one point. Kx2 can say a sentence that says his. State your position...dont hide behind Kk. Heres my rules if your going to engage in a conversation with me... It does not matter how much scripture you quote.. i will respond honestly .. not necessarily in a short post.. but as personal as i can be as to the knowledge i have of your style of writing. I come on here to argue in a good way for my position. The best kind of post is one where the person has the ability to explain his position so that we dont beat around the bush so to speak. If you dont know then say.. I dont really know. If you believe a contradiction i will try to show it. lol Kk is here because he has a passion for debating. Thats what we do here. So if you dont like to debate then there are other areas and other people of this forum where you will feel rite at home. You can even put me on ignore. I like debates to be as passionate as it possibly can so we get open up a desire to find more ways of writing the truth of grace. No ones forcing anyone to be a certain way. Be you.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 1752  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: January 09, 2012, 09:38:00 AM Bill .. I agree ..I do not believe that people who go to convict another person actually have gone as a servant of God. But they are confused about what they are required to say and what God has promised to do. The first requirement in understanding the gospel is to state just what kind of ability we have in presenting the gospel. Bill ive said that a person communicates to others exactly how he sees himself in his position as he communicates the message. This is where the problem is. This is why God warns about teaching because in teaching the gospel it must be applied in a personal way to the teacher. Paul says follow me as I follow Christ. He never said that it was his mission to go out and make the message orthodox so that it will be the method to the salvation of the young generation. But Paul tried to explain that he was the worse sinner of all men. Try teaching that when you are talking about a harsh repentance. lol   Reply Quote Notify 1753  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: January 08, 2012, 02:53:08 PM God loves us but sometimes we have legitimate questions about what kind of love it is. I believe i only know Gods love to me because its His special to communicate it to me apart from the way He communicates to others. So when i extol the love of God it involves this total work that He does in both physical and emotional and spiritual to me in this one way. Ive only come this way because what seems wrong to other men is His personal application to me through daily wisdom. I really do not believe that Gods love is just a word we believe. But its what He does as well. A lot of people misunderstand me when i talk about victory. They say that this is a kind of faith word paradigm. But i try to explain to them that all of the Psalms that I pray are psalms that seem to say that God has rejected us.. has forgotten us...has not loved us ...and then we come through these Psalms to the new point of understanding this love not because He says it but because He does something in us in this holistic transference of grace.  Ive been in the place where i honestly did not think that God loved me. And i had been a christian for many yrs. Had most of the NT memorized. Was schooled in Psalms meditation. I know when guys say to me that it s not even the word that can save us what that is like. Theres a lot of reason to ask legitimate questions. I mean the hardest deli ma is to experience mental or physical pain and believe that God really cares. A lot of people say there is no psalms that do not end in hope and steadfast trust. But that is not true. But there are Psalms that leave the psalmist in the midst of his pain. So i can accept that there is something other than pray.. the word and the help of other people that we cannot completely understand in this equation of knowing Gods love. I believe that pain weakens us and makes us unbelieving. It is a real agent of the scheme of the Devil to undue us. But if youve ever experience mental pain to an extreme then you will know that it was a situation that was lost in time so to speak. I mean its not a question of whether God loves us at that point but its a question is He is going to hold us up until He heals us or until we get to heaven. There is real leprosy of body and soul. This is why i run from those who talk as if God must heal us completely in order for us to be completely confident that God loves us. Ive seen the best men act like the Devil himself. God does whatever He has designed and we cannot stop it. This is why i believe that for every painful situation there is always a focus on a remedy that is based on patch work and not complete healing. Because I accept the fact that there are things in this life that cannot be completely remedied. This is why a person who has had extra experience in pain that others have not knows that Gods love is sometimes questionable. And the only people who are of help are those who do not try to do what God does. If God saved us and gave us completed confidence all the time that He is a loving God then its a struggle to believe this if we face pain that is very difficult to deal with.      Remove Reply Quote Notify 1754  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: January 08, 2012, 02:05:21 PM Out of all the Psalms there is really no reference to the Devil. Think about this. But the answer to mans basic need is the revelation of God as sovereign and able. This is why we do not fight against flesh and blood because we know that men only belong to two fathers. One group belongs to our heavenly Father and the other group has the Devil as their father. Because the only thing that separates the world into two groups is the difference between their standing before God. One is loved by God and the other is alienated from God. The Devil does not need to lead a man down the road to evil. He has already caused man to go the way of evil. God does not give the Devil the authority to cause man to become depraved. The Devil just tempted man to evil but God imputed sin to all of man through one man. We do not need to be rescued from a God who is completely hidden. Who fights wars that we are not personally involved in but we need a new Man to win the battle for us so that we are delivered from sin and death. God does not remain as a mystical force but He comes down in our skin and gives us the image of this real Man. Why does the scripture talk about fighting against heavenly forces when there is so much focus on fighting with the reprobate? Because the bible defines the powers of this these heavenly forces as moving men and not making man free to move the world. So we look at this fight as two dimensional and not one. But we do not ignore that we fight against flesh and blood. We just have a way to overcome flesh and blood by the victory of this real Man. We really do not fight against an identifiable devil but we fight against the schemes of the devil. These schemes are not caused by a personal devil but they are in man because of sin. The devil is the god of this world. We know that we fight against these schemes because they are personal attacks against our position as saints. In other words we fight against any thing that goes against the doctrines of grace. This is why we are involved in breaking down the truth of grace in clear doctrines. Because we want to overcome the schemes of evil men.      Remove Reply Quote Notify 1755  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: If you love me, you will obey what I command. on: January 08, 2012, 01:44:27 PM Quote from: THOR on January 08, 2012, 01:08:04 PM Quote Any being which is spiritually separated by God is categorically a slave to sin. Actually the Bible says that sin separates us from G-d. It’s not separation that causes us to sin. May seems semantic but it’s a very important difference. Also I was really hoping to get some hard scripture evidence to support the cancellation of free will. Quote ...there are only a few people that have be brave enough to stand on the doctrines of grace in my yrs on this site. That's all very noble but the question that has not been answered...it should be easy.  What are those verse/s that say man has lost his free will, starting in Genesis?  It's good to stand of Scriptural foundation, if indeed it is the foundation and not still yet another doctrine of man elevated to unwritten Holy writ. Thor If man  (Adam) can sin with free will then any man can sin with free will. You don't have to take free will away from man for him to go against G-d.  All you need is motive and oportunity. Thor how would you like if someone was quoting to you... lets say you have friends and they have been showing you scripture for a few yrs and then one day your going over the same thing and you say again... show me the scripture that says men are dead in sin... i mean...what if there was an elephant in the room and everyone in the group was saying.. theres an elephant in the room but theres one person saying its not really the word elephant but its the root word dog. So we look and say uh at least acknowledge that we have a history in our communication that you reject the clear words of scripture that as we have been explaining them and for 500 yrs are written down by many authors. What we are concerned about is not that you have some scriptures that you bring but that you do not expose the truth in all of scripture.