1801	Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War	on: December 27, 2011, 08:22:33 AM
The bible is the only available mirror of the soul. Its the only light that is proven by its effects as to what we live by. No one ever changes apart from walking down this path. No one ever gets better in this world in a fundamental way by doing behavior modification techniques. Now listen ... people are able to hide their inner condition by an outward change. The conditions of this change are short term modifications. They only work under the pressure of a principle that creates the need. But over a long period of time and after a lot of energy expended.... no one ever becomes different fundamentally than what their sinful heart makes them This is what is so deceptive about this world. Because men are fundamentally what they are in the privacy of their own world. They are fundamentally what they are when they are resting.lol. The energy exerted is so deceptive. Because a man lives in the action of his own mind. This is so private that no man is able to know a man as if they could study his thoughts from his birth. Therefore every man is fundamentally the same in what he is as he was when he was born. I warn you... do not accept the visual appearance of a man. Do not believe that his planning is fundamentally a big part of his success. All the actions and exerted energy are such a small part of what defines a man that to define real change as we view men is to follow a carrot that we can never catch! What we think about change is fundamentally the view of who we are. This is why the order of change is only in the hands of God. He has declared all men under sin and made their ability to change an impossibility. Now listen ...in order for us to know who we are as sinners we must reject every other paradigm of deliverance than the calling of God. We must be brought into this relationship by a clear call. We must hear the Shepherds voice. Because God gives us real reality without the need to change. We are drawn into a world in which change comes through God meeting our needs so that he is alone is good. This voice is what gives us room to be free to become something that we do not try to become.
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1802  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 26, 2011, 04:12:07 PM Quote from: stonelifter on December 26, 2011, 02:56:14 PM Had Judas not Hung himself what do you think Jesus would have said to him after the resurrection? Jesus new he would hang himself cause he said it would be better had he not been born. If Judas had lived with the guilt and shame he felt.(a lot of guilt as he Hung himself over it) I wonder what Jesus would say or if he would even appear to him? It's an interesting hypothetical question I think. Yes..sl...We fail to think of Jesus as He confronted those people who wanted to destroy Him. We make Jesus like a political figure or a religious zealot trying to go against the system of that day. But as a man Jesus had a personal side. lol. Jesus was not just fighting an impersonal battle for us Americans transpose on His representation of what is a disciple. lol. Jesus wasnt creating a painting to counter act the false disciples of our day...lol Jesus was fighting against men who were evil and had evil intentions. He was living among men who wanted to meet Him in a dark alley. lol I do not think Jesus was even trying to show what a servant was or what it was to do the will of God. Otherwise we would need a whole seven volumes of do like Jesus did.lol But Jesus was fully engaged in the moment. He reacted like a real man. He bled..He was threatened and was angry. He wished for deliverance from His enemies. This is what was so attractive about Jesus because He was the most free man. People were drawn to Him on a personal level. Jesus was not the conception of whatever our culture wants Him to be. He was the most transparent man expressing Himself before God in the most honest way. Now listen... He really enjoyed sinners because He himself knew weakness as a man. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1803  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 26, 2011, 04:01:15 PM Quote from: billbennett on December 23, 2011, 11:05:03 PM On assurance. Let me take you back in time almost 40 years ago. I was a young believer, saved probably less than a year. Although I knew I was saved, a question was dominating my thinking. It went something time this: Lord I know I am saved today, but what if I really blow it sometime in the future? Will I still be your child? Sometime in the wee hours of the morning, I was reading the third chapter of Romans and came to this verse [Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.] I read that once and then again. The following became clear; my salvation had nothing to do about being good or keeping the law of God, but I had been saved, declared righteous in the sight of God by faith alone. And therefore I was His child. FOREVER! As I closed my Bible, I bowed by head and simply said "Thank you Jesus", and went to bed with the full assurance of my salvation. Now four decades later, I still haven't gotten over this amazing grace of God. Even through the difficult times, I have found God to be faithful. Bill Bill this is simply a powerful testimony. If more people in leadership made it this simple then we all would be assured as a group. I have read you since showing up here in 05 and this is one truth that bleeds through your writing. Its refreshing.    Reply Quote Notify

1804  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Erik's essay: Root and Fruit on: December 26, 2011, 03:52:27 PM Thats the pure gospel rite there... Reply Quote Notify

1805  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 02:46:31 PM My own personal experience in this is how to respond depending on the level of mental illness. Does a person who is mentally ill have an IQ that is normal?Because there are some cases that cannot be solved without medication. It does no good for people to endure violence in order to be patient. Violence must always be put under control. In my case i have a severe mentally ill child. Sees characters.. talks to them...hears voices without his meds. He comes to get his meds before its time. I agree with that article but its not a gracious view. God works in spite of the average desire by normal people to control problem cases. God works individually to bring a person who struggles with an illness to be helped by keeping the anger at an acceptable level. Working through a person who is qualified even tho there are other people who practice a kind of neglect abuse. God protects the one abused by leading them in a path where they will get the most help. It may not be through the normal worldly means. It may not be through church even tho it is a big neglect that is a glaring problem. But God overcomes all of the obstacles to bring the best help in the most gracious way for people who give out of a loving heart. Unless God worked supernaturally to do this then the weak would be forgotten and abused beyond belief. Reply Quote Notify

1806  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 02:17:22 PM Heres what we have been disagreeing on. I ve been saying that we come to God as we are. No steps. God works directly through His word and does not speak to us through methods or words in the way you are saying. His word is alive. It is not a plan or a method. It is life itself. So here is what i am saying. We come to God and find transparency. Whether we are in a situation of abuse by our society. Name calling... slander... making people into our patients... or trying to make people more advanced in their christian lives through our particular religious organized mentor society it still does not produce freedom but more abuse. What makes us free is to on the one hand experience transparency before God and on the other hand to allow ourselves room to fail... to lesson our responsibility (make others carry the load as i do my son) so that we do not destroy ourselves and to keep ourselves focused on Gods time table. No rules no methods... just relationship. Reply Quote Notify

1807  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 01:55:04 PM Let me see if i can remember what i was led to in the clear instruction of scripture and Gods only words of remedy. Youve got to understand that society is like a big machine. The mechanics of the machine are developed through methods. Methods are developed through communication.As you can see Kk thinks that truth is obtained by reducing it into a few steps. This usually is the method... I know because I have a son that irritates me because he is mentally and physically handicapped. But man is always reducing things to methods so that he enjoys not being incumbered by other people who are not as able as he is. This is why we have in our move away from dogmatic doctrinal stances to a system ...kind of like a monarchy system of checks and balances. Its a unconstitutional system of making the courts parents or guardians of the American people. Although there is no other remedy other than do nothing and have massive chaos yet there are consequences that affect the freedoms of all Americans. One of these consequences is that in making the state more powerful than it should be you create through the system of mentoring a society of socially united people who are plugged into an authoritarian structure that is like socialism. Behind all of the unbridled authority is the money trail.  When you go from a system that is built from the constitution that gives people individual rites that guarantees everyone to be an individual proprietor and you make them trust in a system of mentors then it becomes a class ruling society. Youve got to understand that behaviors in an individual sense are basic problems of human nature. But when there are multiple corruptions in a mass of people then youve got to look at the systematic break downs of these individual rites guaranteed by constitution. The problems we are having are basically who is rite about what needs to be put in place in order to reverse these awful generational sins. The bible focuses on a few people who are in positions of authority as that by which it is necessary to reform. This motif is when we start engaging in real doctrinal apologetic. It identifies real problems and addresses real issues. This is the argument Kk and i are having now.     Reply Quote Notify

1808  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 12:05:41 PM Big orange.. i was suffering from depression..let me describe it to you...i was not able pull myself out of going to the depths of pain and sorrow. It was a period in my life where i would go to Gods word and not find comfort or joy. I would always feel desperate and try to feel good but then i would go deeper into sorrow. As you know no matter what words are used it just seems they lead to the same place. I would take the book of Psalms and call on God in numbness. But the numbness just led to a sinking feeling. But there were expressions of sorrow in this book that i really felt. I mean.. ive never felt these expressions of sorrow in the Psalms like they were expressed more than at that time in my life. It would hurt to feel these sorrowful cries as i spoke them. A lot of people use other methods to balance out their depression. I would do anything to relieve the sorrow and pain from that experience. But out of that time.. at the most sorrowful condition of my depression God led me to relief. So it did not seem at the time that it was doing anything. It just seem for those yrs that it did no value. The only thing i can compare it to was breathing out sorrow and descending into depression. But the light came when God moved in my life. So i am more aware both physical and emotionally what direction i am going in order to keep from spiraling down. So in my experience i did not think i was going to be helped but He responded with healing that i did not think was what i needed at the time. But not everyone has the same experience.   Reply Quote Notify

1809  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 26, 2011, 11:48:04 AM Kk is in denial of a God who is sovereign. Let me say that we live in a world in which Gods word is the only instrument that does not abuse or threaten in the creation of connection. Not only from God but its work in society. God just tells us what evil is that we do not know so that He shows us our hearts.  Outside of salvation man creates destruction by his corrupted efforts to obtain power by threats. We call men under sin as a natural bent to given to treachery.  This is why in Gods evolution of societies and out of the understanding of the histories of nations came our constitution. Just as God brought about the preciseness of doctrine through the gifts He ordained for men through His church so these understandings of free expression were funneled into this document of freedom.Now listen.. this constitution was given to silence men in scheming against their neighbor in establishing the rule of law. All identity is in word form. All evil is the creation of men who go outside of Gods law to establish their own identity. Now listen...a person is only free under the constraints of grace and divine love. The law is only necessary for those who in their hearts have a direction to rebel against its clear commands. I am not talking about allowances based upon weakness or being poor. Im talking about what in the bible is defined as a scheme based upon the clear desire to obtain a profit in this world not just financial but any kind of profit because of having a wicked heart. We must see that the fear of God is the beginning of living on the principle of treating others as you would want to be treated. The constitution was established to encourage men to be self respectful and then respect other men.Every evil intent of a mans heart is to establish a real plot to ensnare his neighbor in his business adventure. The constitution as a law was established to prevent men from developing schemes to destroy his neighbor. This is why the ot is focused on God as the only judge because He alone is worthy of giving man exactly what he deserves in truly seeing the world as it is. This is why God does hold a few men responsible for all men. Because God establishes the gods of this earth. But God separates himself from these few men in order to keep them from destroying mankind. Every intent of a god in his heart is a potential scheme against the world. This is how dangerous it is for a man to be a ruler. The small scheme puts the whole society in his trap.       Remove Reply Quote Notify

1810  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: December 26, 2011, 11:22:15 AM We must always determine to live apart from the world system and the religious system. We must seek in the rite way to be labeled out of touch with the current culture. To be a person who is not threatening we must silence people with our love for things they truly do not care about. When we live at peace we are enjoying a path that is clearly out of touch with the world. We love that God is the only one who is a God of salvation and we seek a reality in our minds that this God is outside of the reality of this world. We seek something that is not defined by men or connected in a way to the philosophy of this world so that men can draw conclusions about us in explaining who we are by what we believe.. lol. LOL We believe in the old fashion book. Its a book that we place all of our confidence in. Its the only book we hold up as the hope in this world. Its a book that we fasten on our foreheads and we speak when we wake up.. when we work..when we go to bed. This book in being on our tongues nite and day defines our friends ..how we talk..when we talk and who we know by what it tells us...lol LOL We live to be completely focused on one object of our affections. All of our joys.. all of our praise...all of our time and effort.. all of our blood ..sweat and tears go in focusing on this One Man. It does not matter how we think we are not worthy. We seek beyond our guilt...fear...shame...sin... sorrow...or any thing that gets in our way ... we seek to know this One Man. If we needed to be alone for the rest of our lives..if we rejected every man in our world..if we denied our basic needs ... it would be measure only by this One Thing. It would only be valuable as this One Man is worship!!!!! We obsess over our salvation . Love it ... love it more...love it until it hurts.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1811  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Discipleship and Two- Line Mysticism on: December 26, 2011, 11:08:35 AM Two line theology is built on the supposition that we are to live a quiet and peaceable life in society. It seeks to put a barrier between the world and the church in an effort to obtain this peace. Two line is a mystical view of the world. In denying that moral success is not in word form it denies reality by a view that all things are equal. The gospel is not a message that is half of equation of meeting the needs of people who are in the world and in the church. Its a message that proves itself by the word becoming reality. Its success is seen as a history of actual events that are spoken into reality from heaven in one pathway. It delivers Gods people from the evil that is in the world and from the evil one who controls all world events. Two line destroys the incentive to be in a conquest by denying that the ot was a book of conquest. Two line teaches that God is holy and He needed to put the nation of Israel in their place by bringing the law to bear on Gods people. It seeks to focus on the individual and the secrets corruption of his heart but it denies the reality that sin is a universal corruption that holds society in its grips. Because of two line there is no talk of judgement because the gospel is an instrument to control Gods people through warnings and commands so they will force Gods hand through the behavior of people to create a gospel focus. But in denying that the ot was predominately a book about conquest it eliminates the desire to see that God is an apologetic God in the future as a God of conquest in the sense that He is immutable. We must see that the ot is a book that orders the world as God sees it. Its a book about God bringing history to a culmination in which He takes captive the captivity of this earth and He leads them to the heavenly justice. This God comes to His elect to deliver them from evil and death. The earth is a place of men who worship dead idols and God brings His elect to life so that they will stand as kings and priest being a big part of Gods just vengeance upon wickedness and wicked men though all eternity. Two line denies the personal nature of mans pain and suffering and portrays man as subject to the evils of this world as the necessary agent for being able to enter heaven. It denies the identity of Christ people as being delivered completely to be kings and priest of the Most High. It seeks to force the gospel into an inward world view. But we know that the ot is a world view that identifies the evils in their entirety as the method of bringing deliverance and freedom to Gods people. The fear of God is seeing the world through this idea that corruption is only personal as it is identified. It is not predominately a doctrine of positive thinking. Nor is it a doctrine of worm theology. But the ot in getting to the heart of sin deals with the totality of corruption as it is woven into the society as that by which man experiences the reality of sin. In this view we are given the ability to see the real needs and the real characters of life both good and evil. Two line seeks to make men just the subjects of Gods love and does not deal with the level of evil and the corrupted schemes that are just as evil as the corruption of mens personal evils of heart.        Remove Reply Quote Notify

1812  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 25, 2011, 09:46:32 AM Nothing personal here but did you know that Jesus was pursued by a man who was just as part of the plan to bring Him to the cross as was the Devil himself. This man was playing the part of being a disciple but at the same time he was secretly undermining Jesus by going to the Pharisees. Jesus came as a man who was not representative of any organization in that day. The temple worship was dead and had fallen into a money making machine and the people were not prepared for this God Man. His glory was veiled and He was rejected by all men.  But this one man was very close to Jesus. In fact this man was a disciple. And yet Jesus knew what this man was conspiring because He was God and saw every thing. Jesus read the hearts of men. But just like Satan was constantly following Jesus around in order to kill Jesus before His death and resurrection so this man conspired against Jesus and was gathering a ban of evil men to surround Jesus. This man had a smile on his face in the presence of Jesus but he had destruction in his heart. He was the most deceitful man among all the evil men including the disciples. Jesus was not just in a war with Satan but he was in the middle of a conspiracy. This is why Jesus at one point told those He healed to not say any thing about these miracles. Because Jesus was giving Judas the rope to hang himself. Did you know that Jesus prayed for the death of this deceiver? Jesus was as fully human as He was God. He had to pray prayers that were in the complete will of God. Jesus started His ministry free of the schemes of evil men. But as He had success then He was rejected by all men. All men are guilty of conspiring against the judge of heaven. But Jesus was not just fighting against an invisible foe but He was in danger of having the wicked place their hands on Him and put Him to death. But Jesus was fully aware of their plots because He was always wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. Jesus endure the jeers of men and did not allow them to kill Him until He gave up His life. The Father heard His cries and protected Him from the death blow of men. Jesus was fully man.     Remove Reply Quote Notify

1813  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom of the Will.... J. Edwards on: December 22, 2011, 07:43:42 AM Philosophical Necessity is really nothing else than the FULL AND FIXED CONNECTION BETWEEN THE THINGS SIGNIFIED BY THE SUBJECT AND PREDICATE OF A PROPOSITION, which affirms something to be true. When there is such a connection, then the thing affirmed in the proposition is necessary, in a philosophical sense; whether any opposition or contrary effort be supposed, or no. When the subject and predicate of the proposition, which affirms the existence of any thing, either substance, quality, act, or circumstance, have a full and CERTAIN CONNECTION, then the existence or being of that thing is said to be necessary in a metaphysical sense. And in this sense I use the word necessity, in the following discourse, when I endeavor to prove that necessity is not inconsistent with liberty. The subject and predicate of a proposition, which affirms existence of something, may have a full, fixed, and certain connection several ways. (1.) They may have a full and perfect connection in and themselves; because it may imply a contradiction, or gross absurdity, to suppose them not connected. Thus many things are necessary in their own nature. So the eternal existence of being generally considered, is necessary in itself: because it would be in itself the greatest absurdity, to deny the existence of being in general, or to say there was absolute and universal nothing; and is as it were the sum of all contradictions; as might be shown if this were a proper place for it. So God's infinity and other attributes are necessary. So it is necessary in its own nature, that two and two should be four; and it is necessary that all right lines drawn from the center of a circle to the circumference should be equal. It is necessary, fit and suitable, that men should do to others, as they would that they should do to them. So innumerable metaphysical and mathematical truths are necessary in themselves: the subject and predicate of the proposition which affirm them, are perfectly connected of themselves. In the proposition above... once you take the power or reality out of the subject verb necessity .. you place it in the object. mbG Remove Reply Quote Notify

1814  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: OF THE WORK OF THE HOLY GHOST IN OUR SALVATION... Thomas Goodwin on: December 22, 2011, 07:34:22 AM Let us go over the particular actings of the soul, which are as a drawing out of those created principles, whether at or in our first conversion or afterwards; and we shall find that each and every particular thereof are attributed to this Spirit. [1.] Hast thou seen thy sinful condition, and been humbled, as to hell, for it? It is the Spirit's proper work, for which he was sent. Thus says Christ, John xvi. 8, ' When he is come he shall convince the world of sin.' And he says it to his apostles, when he was to send them into the world to convert men. And this is the first work of the three there rehearsed, that the Holy Spirit beginneth with, in conversion, viz., a conviction of a state of sin and unbelief. As it follows, 'of sin, because they believed not on me,' and consequently, of damnation, as having lived without God and Christ in the world; and this work, though it may seem too low for him, yet he is pleased to bear a title from it, and is termed a Spirit of bondage to us, as causing us to see our bondage to sin, and death, and hell: Rom. viii. 15, 'For ye have not received the Spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.' It is one and the same Spirit there spoken of, in respect of two contrary operations, who hath the title there of both. It is the Holy Ghost who is that Spirit of adoption there spoken of, whereby we (afterwards) cry,'Abba, Father. This you may also see, Gal. iv. 6, and in the next ver. 16 of that Rom. viii. It is the Spirit who also 'witnesseth to us that we are the sons of God;' and by the opposition it will follow that if the Holy Ghost be the Spirit of adoption spoken of, that he also was that Spirit of bondage; inasmuch as he doth discover to us our bondage; even as he is termed the Spirit of adoption, because he testifies our sonship. And the discovery of this our bondage is an infinite favour. For do not the great and wise ones of the world go hoodwinked quick to hell in a moment, and know not whither they are going until they are there? And of thyself thou couldst never have been thoroughly convinced of that; for the heart is deceitful above measure, who can know it? None without the light of this Spirit. For it is the spirituality of the law whereby he instructs men to know wisdom in the hidden point of their corrupt nature, as David, confessing it, speaks, Ps. li., 5th and 6th verses compared together, 'Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.' And without the light of which law the same David likewise confesseth, Ps. xix. 12, 'Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.' By which secret sins he understands the immediate ebullitions of corrupt nature. And it is he that ' searcheth the deep things of God,' 1 Cor. ii. 10; the hidden wisdom, ver. 7 ; hid in God, Eph. iii. 9; and reveals it to us, ver. 5. It is he, the same Spirit, that searcheth the deep deceitfulness of men's hearts, and reveals it to them, which David called wisdom in the hidden part. And it is Thou (says he to God) that makest me to know it; that is, thou by thy Spirit, who knowest all things, 1 Cor. ii. 10. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1815	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests	on: December 21, 2011, 08:29:59 AM
Mac does not believe in double predestination.. unless he has flip flopped since i heard him say it in his teaching.    1831  Forums / Theology Forum / Using The Psalms to Change Reality on: December 18, 2011, 10:27:37 AM In this thread I hope to explain the after effects of long meditations in the Psalms. The Psalms are like taking on the powers of levitation. They create new life in the soul of man so that he has a new vision. In using the Psalms we go beyond our circumstances and enter a world of unimaginative effects.  The Psalms are the mirror of the maladies of the soul. If we could make a covenant on this earth, as we would to a real person...we would experience a love beyond earthly relationships.... after experiencing the relationship we have through the Psalms, as  God was using the words to spiritually operate on our souls and align us anew. The Psalms produce a language in our souls that speaks to us as if  the inner man was a real man. This inner man is like a thirsty supernatural muse who when fed unleashes these heavenly effects that proceed from the depths of the soul out into the body. We call this the effervescence part of the glory of God producing a flow that is more powerful than our finite experience.       Reply Quote Notify 1832  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: December 18, 2011, 10:13:44 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 16, 2011, 01:03:03 PM I want the true God, and I believe He has me.  Calvin got some things right, but he missed much of His love, compassion and patience which has been revealed in my life.  Maybe he wasn't as terrible a rebellious sinner for as long as i was before he asked for / received Christ as his Life. It's not so much that i don't want calvin's God as that calvin only saw part of the goodness of God, as do we all.  I'm thankful for what is revealed to me, and i can learn from calvin as he could learn from me, if he were still walking the earth.  I don't worship theologicians, just the All Worthy One. Nice political statement... definitely need you to support me in my efforts to get ahead in this world.. lol... this is not a concession tho... then you would not be helping me prove my point... lol are you agreeing with Calvin or calling for a small truce? lol Actually let me say that ive been counseled professionally a few times. Airing out my grief  was very healing. Although I wished i would have known how to address this in prayer as i do now. God has a lot more personal responses and the power is unimaginable.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 1833  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 18, 2011, 09:45:19 AM Kk and I do not always agree but we never try to go overboard but we would show brotherly love over our disagreements. Let me say that this message is the only message where God does the opposite of men in order to make men better. If any method is used it is God reordering it in the most personal way to the weak. This is the only message where cursing ends in blessing.We really should not always be concerned for our anger as tho God would be stopped if we were not able to know true love. But we really have a God who will not allow us to figure out a way to advance in this life with our cute little christmas story positive spins on life but He actually comes to us as our only hope for our defense. A lot of people think that when we get to heaven there is only going to be love and positive words. Then there are some who say the only negative experiences will be from the reminder of the christians sin. But this is like an imagination that some person who looked like he had great success on this earth was able to work his way up to stand next to Jesus... Unfortunately there is only One Person who gets the glory in heaven. Now listen to me... any person in a high position on this earth is only competing with Christ and He is not impressed. Listen Heaven is full of people who want revenge... lol You see the only One worthy of being completely in control is the God Man! He will get the glory for those weak and ineffective people being represented by Him! Jesus will not take His place as judge of the saints but He will be dressed in the long robes of His righteousness and He will give us these white robes when we enter heaven. Now listen we will not be without an argument until He actually renews this earth and rules without any adversity. The only thing He is concerned about now is what we suffer and His bringing to an end those who have caused the saints great pain. Christ will only enjoy this relationship through our weakness now and our cries to Him. He will not act as our judge but He will store up our prayers and give us our desires when we enter Heaven. He will reverse the suffering in eternity. He will eternally punish evil doers on our behalf. God will avenge the righteous. We are not that important. As if we could actually repay someone.. lol   Remove Reply Quote Notify 1834  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 18, 2011, 09:27:02 AM Yes Bill... this is why i take all of the descriptions of the gospel and the wisdom that it has already spoken over this world and let it do the work. I have been a very big proponent of describing the most personal experience of gospel grace in being unable to procure our own salvation through our own wisdom. Believe it or not the gospel is not about providing the way to success in a shared effort. But its about protecting us from thinking that it is not enough. Or its power is limited by human achievement. In fact the opposite is true. This really screws people up because its anti intuitive to how the world produces success. Ive said that there is no dressing up the flesh.. as the truth that TB so often reminds us of. The evil destructive practices that people do to other people just enforce the truth that its either all of God or its the most violent response of independence from God. No matter how we look it doesnt matter. A half way salvation is just like no salvation at all. This extreme view of salvation should not give us fear that we are lost forever but it should be a real comfort to real sinners. God will not be mocked.   Reply Quote Notify 1835  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 17, 2011, 03:38:25 AM  Bill this is true also that if i focus on God saving me through my will then I will always think i am not saved. But if I focus on God alone then im not so concerned for myself. Im not sensitive and wavering on whether i am saved because of the sin i just committed. Its the way we think as well as knowing we are saved. The Psalmist in trying to understand the times he lived in and the sorrows of his heart would console himself. He would actually talk to himself . So we are not just concerned for the spiritual health of our salvation but we are being human. In a sense we do not go up to God but God comes down to our level. got to go. Reply Quote Notify 1836  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 16, 2011, 10:19:36 AM Yes what did we die from? If we died why do we want to go back to that experience? We were destroyed by the law so that our wills were made new. But now we are on the other side of that death. How can we remember what that was like? Its like a pig going back to his pig pin. Now we are clean..now we are free.. i just cant understand why people want to get back in those grave clothes and jump back on that altar.. lol Reply Quote Notify 1837  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 16, 2011, 09:58:24 AM Quote from: Worc on December 16, 2011, 09:50:05 AM ENOUGH WITH ME SMOUCHING SOME Tom. wisdom know her children.  On this subject I was Privy to hours of real Islamist cry their Battle cry it frightens westeners-The Logic is like walking thru a cloud and coming out on another plane of existence.  But My Self coment was they have a large part of this formed art.   Listening to a half day of the Imran Khan of Pakistan. And 1 Thing he said, We do NOT Need USA Money. We give OH Because this is a Christian Nation?? NUTZO--WE Give to buy off---The rich in these lands get it---Its a Pay off----NOT THE ART Of ANYTHING THO Being Crooked... Years gone by-The Greeks Loved Wisdom-We Loved Wisdom---NOW we go learn to be one thing and Know Nothing else in any depth--Tell me Im Wrong? RC Has the STATS---Mike Horton---We Ran away from Gods World---Now Tom Tells Us---And Guess what??? Most Have Not a Clue what he is Saying---Well Kuddos Too My Mate KINGS KIDD-And the Mighty Thor for at least disagreeing----Maybe Im All Wrong---If the Spirit isnt tested Who would Know-----Reminds Me of My Dear Mate Marc from Canada--MISS YOU MAN Worc this is why i did not put this in the Main forum . Because it can easily be miss understood. I am not saying that this is in between two people. I am strictly talking about how we address God in our prayers. I believe that we should be harmless as doves when we go out into the world. But we are not naive. We understand the spiritual component in any relationship. So we do not just think about something that is not related to what is going on in the relationship. The message the gospel is not for us to control. Nor is it offered without wisdom.  But before God we must be human. There is nothing that we present before God that is too big for Him to be overburdening Him. Even if we said the most hateful things in His presence He would take them and give us love instead. Christians are taught to act before God. That is not biblical. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1838  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 16, 2011, 09:43:49 AM Quote from: billbennett on December 16, 2011, 09:32:18 AM BigOrange, Ask yourself this question "Have I trusted in Christ and in Him alone for my salvation?" In the quietness of your heart, come to an answer to that question. If the answer is yes, on the authority of the Word of God you are not condemned (Jn. 3:18), can never be seperated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans . If you are not sure, why not trust Him now and settle the issue forever. This type of faith is more than mere intellectual assent to a set of facts. It is placing your faith in a person to do something you can never do for yourself. It is resting in the finished work of Christ. God never intended for one of His children to be unsure of their relationship with Him. In fact in I John He said this things have I written unto you that you might know that you have eternal life. Bottom line: salvation is by grace or by works, not a mixture of the two. Otherwise grace is no more grace. Bill Bill a lot of people teach that the gospel can be looked at from two angles.. In fact ive heard this from 5 pointers. They say that it can be taught from the grace side and it can be taught from the works back to grace. But in my opinion this is not really true. A lot of people make a confession of salvation but then they struggle with sin and guilt. But if we try to answer our struggle with sin and guilt by showing that we are acting out our faith then we are not ever going to have assurance. This is why ive learned how to think in this covenant way. The covenant is our response to God for His love for us. We come as we are. But this is not just one confession. The other side is our confessing what we already have been promised. I believe this is the two sides of grace. The message of salvation is the only answer to sin and guilt. Even when we examine ourselves we do it in the way that God has told us to do it. So we turn to grace in our examination and we confess what we already are. Even if we are not a christian still salvation is our only hope. A lot of people try to separate our living the gospel with our being the gospel. But we do not have a choice to not take what is offered to us. Its free and its always available. Why would we linger in guilt and shame when its there to be the remedy? So here is what i am taught. I at one time confessed salvation. Now i do not go back to that confession but i confess that i already am what i was promised. In practicing this i am identifying with Christ and enjoying my salvation. I no longer go back to my old way through works.    Reply Quote Notify 1839  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 16, 2011, 08:32:16 AM The christian faith is the only remedy for the wicked man. There is no hope unless the wicked man is brought to the end of himself. Lets describe the man of the world. He is a tall man with a coat and tie. His hair is combed to precision and he is ready to do his task. He is a proud man and very educated. He has been taught how to communicate so that he gets what he wants. He is a clean man who is proud of his reputation. This is the american man of power. But behind the facade he has a very wicked heart. He has a heart for murder. Now this is the problem. We christian do not consider the danger and the struggle that the wicked man has gone through to get to the position he is in. We think we can come with the message of the gospel and this man is going to take it to heart. Now the problem with this 20th century man is that he has been told that God loves him so many times that it has become obnoxious to him. Here is the doff-us christian who has the 5 verses to save a man. The christian is told to go out to the world and bring them in. lol. So the christian goes with his message. But we know there is more to bringing him in than just to prove by our behavior that we are real. Now listen to me...most men when we say... I come in the name of the Lord are going to say in their hearts.. yea.. i heard this before... and then they are going to pull out their old manual on how to put this christian in his place. lol. Why do we think we can reason with a very arrogant man who only knows one thing and that is destroy and move up the ladder? Do you think we can get them to listen without demanding respect? I was reading the other day about a girl who was taken hostage and the guy was about to kill her with a gun and she asked him to pray with her . So all the christians were extolling the love she showed before she died. Listen.. if love is asking someone to pray with you before they kill you then that is pure foolishness. The world looks at this and laughs. The correct response is to be angry that she was not protected! Ive been doing this thing for a long time. When they know there is a christian they are going to test you by disrespecting you. The reason is that is their nature. Ive had some serious human struggles with wicked men. I mean battle of the wills struggles. Im not stupid.. i read people very well... i can see they are just playing with me...  I cant understand christians who get in my way. Ive even had other christians join their cause to gang up against me.. lol. I wish i could tell them to get lost. Seriously. The christian faith is not a message without a demand! Ive read bios about these people who have died at the stake for their faith. And there is a kind of creepy response to this that shows me how much a person will endure in disrespect to ruin the christian message. We are not praying for the wicked to kill us in order to be saved. We are praying that God will bring them to their knees so that will at the least know that God means business and perhaps God will grant them salvation.  It amazes me how naive christains are. Ive been in the Psalms for a long time. The psalms are the man who is able to use spiritual power to over come the wills of men. Its an art form. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1840  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: December 16, 2011, 01:53:37 AM K k... lets cut to the chase ... just say... I do not like John Calvins God to rule over me... just admit it..i will respect you more... tell me paaaleeessssee ..at least be clear. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1841  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: December 15, 2011, 01:55:34 PM Youve noticed that i have not said a word about Demons or Satan...i just do not see this as a direct war but it is what we say about Demons to other people that is the war. Because people use these terms outside of the dogmatic. They use them only in perceived experience. Ive never seen one evil spirit in my life. But ive seen people go through tremendous mental and emotional pain. Pain almost has its own image. It makes men like beast. Because every man uses pain to be successful. I guess that if you were to ask what is the most adversity to a man doing to another what he would want done to him it would be his view of the other man based upon his own experience of pain. In other words there is no reality of what pain is... the extent of pain without God. Because why would a person become a murderer because of inward pain? I mean that seems crazy. If there is no relief for emotional pain then there is no promise of redemption. This is why i am trying to figure out how pain is related to sin and righteousness. The only thing i can conclude is that pain is a form of self infliction. I mean the response to pain. I mean pain drives a man to think in a way that is self defeating. I really believe that emotional pain is a form of self hate. Although i also believe that God prevents and enables by pain. He determines our direction through pain.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 1842  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: December 15, 2011, 01:37:50 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 15, 2011, 01:28:59 PM mbG:  "Calvinism delivers us from looking for salvation in someone or something else." K_k:  Oh, i thought Jesus did that.  I hope we aren't deifying calvin's-ism. I know you despise my dogmatism of Calvin... lol it saved me from steps ...lol Remove Reply Quote Notify 1843  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 15, 2011, 01:20:13 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 15, 2011, 01:11:43 PM mbG:  "Kk God gives men what they want which is to grease the tracks... lol He could destroy them at any time but he lets them build up judgement like they want. They have no interest in seeing God." K_k:  If you had a serious life-destroying addiction, you might better understand the desperation that drives the addict to God, or to death.  Yes, He "greases the tracks", the steps that lead to Himself. He's not trying to see how many people He can keep out of Heaven, mbG, but rather how many He can bring in to His Family.  Yes, He could destroy sin addicts at any time, but instead gives them every opportunity to turn to Him and grow in relationship with Him -- in 12 major ways, which are the work of the Way.  Recall that only Christ heals and recovers people, not they themselves. Its obvious that we are getting worse ... so God alone does His work without our help. I came to God not because of anything in me. I do not speak for God of who is in and who is out. God is fully capable of taking my worse hate and consuming it in His love.If He can take my personal anger and not allow me to express it to man then He alone can take the alcohol from a man. Dont live by what you see but live by Gods words. He can even overcome your unbelief.... sir...  Remove Reply Quote Notify 1844  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 15, 2011, 01:11:51 PM Quote from: billbennett on December 15, 2011, 01:05:26 PM Thanks guys. These thoughts are helpful. Ultimately our walk with Christ is a very personal relationship. It still blows my mind that the God of the universe desires to have fellowship with me. Even created me for that purpose. To the young believers on the forum, I would say not to be discouraged. God is faithful, and will complete the work in you that He has begun. And he will get you home, you can take that to the bank. Bill Thanks Bill .. glad that you can be such an encouragement.. excited to here some more. Reply Quote Notify 1845  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 15, 2011, 01:05:15 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 15, 2011, 12:56:58 PM mbG:  "Kk does not like this because Kk thinks we need to do the 12 steps instead of asking directly to God to bless the righteous and destroy the wicked. Kk thinks he has some special redemption powers in making men his disciples. lol" K_k:  When people are the disciples of Jesus they follow His directions to bless and not curse, even those who abuse you, as evil men did to Him.  We don't have to ask God to destroy the wicked, He will do an excellent job at the perfect time.  Meanwhile, since we were once among the wicked ourselves, maybe we should have compassion on them, as Jesus did on those who were crucifying Him. mbG:  "We know there is a real struggle between good and evil. But Kk thinks that Gods general love gives him the power to gift men with the mentality of the steps in order to show them grace." K_k:  God gives all men grace in keeping them alive and offering them Himself.  And He gives special grace to those who trust and depend on Him instead of themselves.  That special grace includes the inspiration and ability to walk in His steps as outlined in Scripture.  Some Believers don't understand they are following His steps, but all Believers do, sooner or later. Kk God gives men what they want which is to grease the tracks... lol He could destroy them at any time but he lets them build up judgement like they want. They have no interest in seeing God. Just remember this is the bully thread and God does defend.