Our justification is by imputation, if we accept Him as our Life.  Apart from cooperating with His desire for us, there is no justification, only the certainty of being lost.  Our santification is by imputation ultimately, since He will recreate us in His Image, yet every day He builds our ability to cooperate with His purification process, as we surrender more to His righteousness. Kk Any one on my side who knows doctrine knows this is pure heresy. Justification is not to be justified in this life in every action but its a declaration in heaven that we stand without blame because of our clear substitute. Kk likes to use our words like imputation but he is not being historically accurate. He believes in infusion not imputation.  Once we are regenerated we are completely sanctified in Christ. We enjoy this sanctification through Christ atoning for all our sins. This means that Christ works were completely righteous so that Christ alone is the only person who completely obeyed the Father. I have never obeyed God as a person who can stand by himself apart from Christ and claim that i deserve to be accepted because of my obedience. There is only one Person who is accepted before the tribunal of God. Kk and i think completely different. Kk has list in his head. He has these 12 things that he examines his life by and goes through checks to see if he is doing them. There are only two ways of thinking. Some people are trained to think as if the world was a world of chance and their decisions determined their success. They believe that their decisions are like a big long chain and when they value themselves they point to these individual decisions as what makes them who they are. Its extremely important to them to always make the rite decisions. As i have said many times this libertarian free will is like a self fulfilled way of thinking. It creates the problems it tries to extinguish..

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1789  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: January 03, 2012, 01:34:46 PM In light of the title of this thread and the opposition defined as abusive i will continue to explore legitimate hate or anger. I am not naturally a hateful person. I am very weak in my general disposition. It may be that its easier for me to be by myself and get myself into a frame of contemplation so that i am experiencing rejoicing that is full of glory. And it may result in a spirit of stout heartedness. But whatever this joy is i do not believe it originates from me but from the Spirit. If I said it was something that i intellectually enjoyed then it may be purely my own philosophy. But i am enjoying the fact that I cannot boast in the experience from my own goodness. But its something that i experience when i am meditating. So I give all the praise to Jesus even tho i do not quite know how to explain it. lol This is the same experience with holy anger. I cannot say that I am filled with this kind of anger toward other people. So to conclude about meditating on this anger that it produces holy desires is a mystery to me as well. I have no authority to claim personal anger as God shows it so that whatever anger and violence the scripture talks about it is not my personal anger. This is why i always say in the most hateful statements in these psalms. I say that its not my authority that is great but the only thing we should do is fear God. In avoiding these statements of scripture we are denying the responsibility God has in showing us that He is much more to be feared and then our reasoning that we are healed by knowing the anger of our God. So in explaining this it is not personal to me as if it was a need to seek revenge. But God says what He needs to say and I agree and cheer His powerful anger. I have no personal need to avenge Gods word. lol   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1790  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: January 01, 2012, 12:22:17 PM As you can see there are two levels of conversations going on here. One is replacing the scripture and using the scripture to argue for their position. This is why it is so dangerous to ignore some of the scripture. Because man argues based upon his understanding of his own image as he compares himself to other men and draws conclusions about what is the way of success. All men stray in their epistemology but there are some men who create a scheme against God in a purely philosophical human structure. Kks assertion that God has reconciled the reprobate...which is a past tense verb and cannot be used in Kks teaching that God looks at the future through this universal reconciliation. So Kk stands on the same side of the issue as universalism.  But we need to see the scripture is self attesting. It creates the deliverance that it promises. If we accept that man is in some way autonomous then the language is changed as to who has the power and who is responsible and therefore it either works against sovereign grace or it is like rivalry as the apostle was saying.  Ive also seen men who have a real understanding of grace but in communicating it there is a necessary step that i take in knowing they are not able to explain it so that it is clear. As i have said the gospel is both simple and complicated. The complications of the gospel are a necessary in order to guard its simplicity. In other words we oppose all the complicated schemes of men in the defense of the gospel. But we not only explain the gospel but we live in the reality that its a sovereign grace not a shared grace.      Remove Reply Quote Notify

1791  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 29, 2011, 02:54:43 PM http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/renewing-your-mind/player/christ-alone-part-1-248243.html  RC Sproul... this teaching is very clear and precise. The only teacher today that does not waste a thought. Reply Quote Notify

1792  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Grace Freedom on: December 29, 2011, 10:58:00 AM Psalm 145     A psalm of praise. Of David.  1 I will exalt you, my God the King;    I will praise your name for ever and ever. 2 Every day I will praise you    and extol your name for ever and ever.  3 Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise;    his greatness no one can fathom. 4 One generation commends your works to another;    they tell of your mighty acts. 5 They speak of the glorious splendor of your majesty—    and I will meditate on your wonderful works. 6 They tell of the power of your awesome works—    and I will proclaim your great deeds. 7 They celebrate your abundant goodness    and joyfully sing of your righteousness.  8 The LORD is gracious and compassionate,    slow to anger and rich in love.  9 The LORD is good to all;    he has compassion on all he has made. 10 All your works praise you, LORD;    your faithful people extol you. 11 They tell of the glory of your kingdom    and speak of your might, 12 so that all people may know of your mighty acts    and the glorious splendor of your kingdom. 13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,    and your dominion endures through all generations.    The LORD is trustworthy in all he promises    and faithful in all he does.[c] 14 The LORD upholds all who fall    and lifts up all who are bowed down. 15 The eyes of all look to you,    and you give them their food at the proper time. 16 You open your hand    and satisfy the desires of every living thing.  17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways    and faithful in all he does. 18 The LORD is near to all who call on him,    to all who call on him in truth. 19 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him;    he hears their cry and saves them. 20 The LORD watches over all who love him,    but all the wicked he will destroy.  21 My mouth will speak in praise of the LORD.    Let every creature praise his holy name    for ever and ever. This is your covenant Lord. This is the work you do. No other option. He does it. This is a play on words. God only sees the righteous in the "all" usage and He looks at His success as if the wicked did not exist..lol.. but at the same time there is one little phrase about God destroying them..so they are not able to be historically important in the end.. but their names before God are like the chaff of the wind. At the same time the Psalms are about our problems with our enemies. So we see that under earthly kings we face more trouble than it really is in Gods view. Think about Gods success and it will give you more desire to bring all your troubles and anger to Him. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1793  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 29, 2011, 10:39:00 AM Let me talk about his vindication of Gods elect. A lot of people misrepresent this relationship we have as Gods covenant people in light of how we are represented by God before men. These pragmatist are always trying to reverse this order. But any one who has chewed the cud on this wisdom motif knows that Gods elect enjoy a special relationship in which God vindicates His own name through sinful people. lol Youve got to understand that this wisdom writing is filled with a kind of play on words that on the one hand makes God big and on the other hand makes us small. The whole relationship that we have as being accepted by God is fixing this grace motif in the hearts and minds of Gods people so that we will not be deceived by our own eye site in how our lives are brought along by the hand of this gentle Shepherd. A lot of people hold onto their natural love for themselves and try to put the cart before the horse so to speak. But either we are saved and secure or we are always vindicating ourselves to prove that God is righteous. But this is the most miserable and evil tendencies that are natural to us. We will not give God what He deserves. So God must put boundaries on His power and Name lest He lower Himself to our standard of law keeping. lol God proves Himself by His own ability to do good to sinners in their sinful tendencies. He is not trying to show on the one hand their goodness and on the other hand their evils. lol. But God removes the evils in order to vindicate His name through His people. lol. God is not a pragmatic God. He does not work to make us acceptable. But He proves Himself faithful by presenting His elect who sin as blameless before the world. God is the most at being good. His goodness displayed through His faithfulness is beyond our ability and planning to show it. He must not only guard us but He must advance before us to be the righteousness that we enjoy.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1794  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: December 29, 2011, 09:50:58 AM There are two reactions as warning signs to a the elect about Gods just recompense and His rite to determine who it is directed to. Because if we get this wrong then we attribute to God evil in how He disciplines His elect. It is my measurement on whether a man is living with some sort of universal pragmatism in his thought life. Because this issue of Gods wrath is absolutely essential to direct us in how we are identified in Christ. These two responses should put up red flags about what kind of conviction the person has about who God is. I believe that this separates those people who have universal pragmatic beliefs from those embrace the doctrines of grace and this real conviction that God is particular. I ask what side is God on? If God is particular with the world then please join their cause! The two reactions to these prayers..brother you are not praying what God wants nt believers to pray. He has laid down His anger and now His grace is for every person laying down His justice. The second is that if you pray these prayers that God will enact vengeance on you in your praying in anger. They will produce evidence by their love for pragmatism that God was anger in the ot was directed to His specially chosen people. They attempt to blur the difference in the text between national Israel and Gods remnant. They say that God in judging Israel actually directed it at Gods church in the ot. We only distinguish human anger not by the response in a given situation but by the knowledge and understanding of Gods anger and the clear teaching of particularism as to what real gracious anger is. In other words if we say that any anger is subject to Gods judgement then we will focus on anger as a tool in these individual earthly relationships. Once we lower the standard of righteous anger then we in essence curse our brothers in Christ. We put them in a position of being judged by the world. But if we seek to eliminate all the pragmatic longings we have then we are made to choose sides. As Joshua said... choose you this day whom you will serve. If you serve the gods of pragmatism then stand on that side. If you chose the living God then get rid of your universal longings. Now listen... either our salvation has caused God to lay down His enmity against us or it has not. We are not given the diploma to decide what these individual relationships should look like. We are forced to decide!lol My prayers force you to decide. Which side are you going to be on? We see that there is not condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. At the same time we see that God is angry with the wicked every day. Now listen..let me give you the personal particularism that is essential if we are going to embrace this God whose love cannot fail the elect. We must avoid this universal focus on psychological anger.  Instead we must come to God as we are and bring all of our anger to Him. If God is too small to love angry people then He is an abusive God. He is a distant God. He is a God who is subject to mans wishs in light of psychological anger. But if God demands us to curse the man who wished evil on His elect brother then we are letting God be God. We are required to choose this particular love. We must hate the idols of pragmatism. In order to know the love of God ..it must overcome every cause to go outside of His justice and determination to be loved based upon our responses to one another. This is very serious business. God says either you know your identity in Christ or just serve you pragmatic gods. Now listen ...God does not vacillate in His response to how much anger a man displays or what a man does as a violent man. Gods anger is swift and is directed in an immutable way. He does not give out warnings as if He was withholding His anger. This is why a believer can put all of His confidence in God because He does not fool himself about Gods terrible judgement. A believer in his new birth has been given as much love as God is terrible. Any one who understands anger in a christian sense knows that either that man has escaped Gods anger or that man should not trust God and just party till he dies. lol A believer who embraces the doctrines of grace knows how dangerous it is to rebel against Gods absolute rite to judge the wicked. I beg you do not be divided. Are you going to encourage violence against Gods elect by lowering God?      Remove Reply Quote Notify

1795  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 29, 2011, 08:37:46 AM See this is the thing about the gospel. You have warnings and these individual corrections by Christ of the Pharisees who incorrectly interpreted the law but these words of Christ are not to be taken out of context with the rest of scripture. He says dont curse but bless.. this is an ot concept. Then Christ says if someone wants your tunic give him your cloak as well. So Kk automatically makes this a rule to follow. So every time someone ask me for something then i give him my most valuable things as well? And beacon is rite. What good is it if the victory we proclaim only went as far as some inward motion in our hearts? A sign is simply a wonder that is performed by God that is seen by men to show that God delivers us. Is the first time that men are confronted with Christ as a real ruler only promised when He appears in the sky to set up His eternal judgment and kingdom? If that is so then we are worms hoping for this one event to prove that we are not like fools. lol.  But God has made it so that we ask Him and He answers us. This is not a game where God says you can only ask certain questions because I do not want to offend a certain religious group.No this is as if we were in heaven coming before the throne of grace to ask for visible wonders that God would perform on our behalf. If all of the evidences of God were invisible then there would be no history of Israel. lol.  This is why the Psalmist praises God because of Gods wonders that were performed on behalf of the King. This is why there is no word for miracles in the nt because its the word of the old testament that is revealed. And these wonders were a response to the kings wishes. But these wonders ...not just the military victories but what was performed in the temple worship and Gods favor displayed before all of Israel upon the kings entrance into the city of David. But these wonders were part of a relationship the king had with the King of heaven. These were response to the kings prayers. What did the king pray? "Show me a sign of your goodness that my enemies may see it and be put to shame."  I could see David as a shepherd boy who as he was approaching Goliath before all of Israel and the enemies troops praying this prayer.  lol.   Reply Quote Notify

1796  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 28, 2011, 03:35:59 PM The gospel is the most violent effect that was ever conceived. Eternal life is obtained through violence. Why is it so violent? Because its like a zombie movie. We live in a world where men are as violent as the flesh eating zombies. I guess you could say that there is a good paranoia. This paranoia is essential because our deepest needs cannot be met without experiencing complete safety. But in a world where there are threats in us and outside of us this safe place is only obtained through extremely violence cursing. The problems we have are not from our renewed experience. But they are from threats against our renewed experience. These adversaries are what brings the soul into the effects of fear and worry. These are creations of experiencing depravity. If all of society was under the effects of rite thinking there would be no reason to fear or worry. But we live in a world where the initial salvation experience is short lived.  What do i mean by straying from our first love? When we experienced our initial salvation we experienced a radical change as if we were given new physical senses of taste ...touch ... and sight so that everything we experienced was fresh. But this did not last because the world we live in is an adversary to encouraging us to dwell in this new spiritual high. They are like zombies who feed on spiritual success. Now listen its good if we learn how to pray so that we separate ourselves from this stalking adversity in coming closer and closer to God as a real refuge. There is a kind of paranoia that we experience in creating this place of peace knowing that we are going into a world of abuse. We must learn the language of spiritual war. This means that we must not be molded by the way the world thinks of God. We must create through the word a personality that is righteous. On the one hand we must use the word to violently destroy the evil personality of people through cursing the fool personality. We must learn how to overcome the violent attempts to separate us from the refuge of God. Now listen to me.. there is no other excuse .. evil advances because it is not resisted. I do not mean in a moral sense but in an abusive sense. The reason that we are more enslaved today is because the prior generations did not violently resist the evil. We are not a product of our circumstances but we are forced into this evil world to resist it by force.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1797  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 28, 2011, 03:05:18 PM Quote from: toadbat on December 28, 2011, 02:55:13 PM Quote from: mylife4him on December 28, 2011, 07:49:02 AM Quote from: toadbat on December 27, 2011, 05:56:45 PM Big Orange, since you went ahead and laid all of your cards on the table, so will I. I am currently suffering from very active addictions and depression. I have long-since given up on trying to "live the Christian life." (For one thing, it was killing me!). While I may have given-up on  the life-style, I have not given-up on Christ. The only thing He wants of you now is to rest in Him (and don't bother trying to figure out what that is supposed to look like - just rest!). I can relate (oh, HOW I can relate) to not having any special person in my life (and I am 49 already!). I likewise (apart from what I just wrote above) have no scriptures that I will direct you to or any other kind of "sermonizing." If I had the answers, I myself would not be going through this. Just know that I am keeping you in prayer, bro! (((( toady)))) prayin' for you, too brother.... ((((Patti)))) thank you sister! Thanks TB.. God knows bro..He knows what He is doing. Reply Quote Notify

1798  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom For The Addicted on: December 28, 2011, 02:52:24 PM We live a life of coming to God as addicted sinners. How do we approach God? We practice opening the bible and submitting to the Spirit. How do we submit to the Spirit? We come as we are and become like Christ. When we read the bible it transforms us. The words of God are those effects that uproot our old dullness and distance by the light that shines in our faces. This word revives the soul.. it makes wise the simple...it radiates the eyes giving us a view that is not available without the use of the word...it is pure as if it was holding the creation in the exact position of the alignment that is necessary to sustain this life on earth. One degree of movement out of position and the earth would cease to sustain life. We say by this that man is without hope because he is cut off from eternal life. The word is the oxygen that is needed to produce mans reordered reality. This is why we must have a spirit of submission to the word of God. Because the word is not just ink on a page. But it is absolutely necessary for us to live a life of godliness. Without the word of God we are left in the dark. The word is a light for our feet. It not only gives us light to go in the direction we are required to go but it determines reality in that direction. We say that the word is that by which God shines the light of His glory in our face. Our face cannot be turned around to our backs..lol. Our head is like the sun that proceeds in the exact circuit. Every day it moves along this circuit and it does not go off its access in even a minute degree. So to our faces are drawn by the word to the light of the glory of Christ that keeps us looking strait ahead. We do not move to the rite or the left. This means that the word has drawing effects in our movement down this one path so that we are changed completely in the areas of our lives that we cannot see or understand. The word then does things in us and through us that we cannot produce. Just as the light is ordered by God to give us vision so the word is like a beam of light that causes us to follow it to Gods glory. It produces in us desires that cannot be satisfied. It does not cause us to experience hardness but it draws us to focus and then focus intently and then focus more intently and then we receive this light that shines in our face. We receive eternal life as tho it was radiating from our face from its effects. These effects are the spiritual reality the word produces that we experience in how the creation... the inward soul experiences... the supernatural effects ...as a holistic reality as these things really are as they exist. Think about this. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1799  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Grace Freedom on: December 28, 2011, 01:50:36 PM Christ love constrains us. Its not our love. Why does Christ love keep us from falling? Because in our natural self we do not consider just how evil it is to believe in a works righteousness. So anytime we do not fall back on Gods love that hems us in and we focus on our own standard that makes us acceptable then we spiral down into unbelief. When a person spirals down into unbelief he begins to focus on the principles from a moral system and slowly abandons Gods word. Why do people do this? Because they do not believe that God is able to do according to His will!They will not accept a God who does what He pleases in one means ...which is the only means to constrain us. But they rebel against this sovereign God and follow after their own lust. They refuse to accept their inability to please God and Gods absolute ability to do as He pleases through accepting real sinners. lol Why do people want to bring their will to God like offering what they work for? Because their natural will is to rebel against the only remedy. lol They do not focus on God delivering them but they focus on God rewarding them for their offering! This is a most miserable rebellion. Because they cut themselves off from all of the real supernatural affects of deliverance. As long as they refuse to acknowledge their inability to do one good thing, they remain as a little child. As long as they stay on the fence between their old will trying to please God and their new principles they will reject the words of redemption that are essential in hearing the call of God. God must be absolutely sovereign or He is not the God of the bible.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1800	Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War	on: December 28, 2011, 01:36:53 PM
Quote from: Kings_kid on December 27, 2011, 02:10:26 PM mbG:  "Because God gives us real reality without the need to change. We are drawn into a world in which change comes through God meeting our needs so that he is alone is good. This voice is what gives us room to be free to become something that we do not try to become." K_k:  God gives us real reality with the need to change, and by satisfying that need, with us, not against us.  He alone is good, and part of that goodness is in developing our willingness and ability to trust and depend on Him.  We seek to become what He is transforming us to be, as it should be, for the seeking and "trying hard" come from Him that He may answer our failing efforts, and turning to Him, with His new version of us. Luke 11:9-10 Jesus:  “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." K_k:  He doesn't transform us into Christ's Image without our cooperation, but by drawing and inspiring and molding and empowering and directing our cooperation.  Still we must, and will cooperate, if we are His.  Yet, He gets the glory, while we get the gratitude, for the real work in our changes come from Him.       The other half of your sales pitch which you left out in your cooperation theology is to make sure that you do your twelve rules...lol       1801  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 27, 2011, 08:22:33 AM The bible is the only available mirror of the soul. Its the only light that is proven by its effects as to what we live by. No one ever changes apart from walking down this path. No one ever gets better in this world in a fundamental way by doing behavior modification techniques. Now listen ... people are able to hide their inner condition by an outward change. The conditions of this change are short term modifications. They only work under the pressure of a principle that creates the need. But over a long period of time and after a lot of energy expended.... no one ever becomes different fundamentally than what their sinful heart makes them This is what is so deceptive about this world. Because men are fundamentally what they are in the privacy of their own world. They are fundamentally what they are when they are resting.lol. The energy exerted is so deceptive. Because a man lives in the action of his own mind. This is so private that no man is able to know a man as if they could study his thoughts from his birth. Therefore every man is fundamentally the same in what he is as he was when he was born. I warn you... do not accept the visual appearance of a man. Do not believe that his planning is fundamentally a big part of his success. All the actions and exerted energy are such a small part of what defines a man that to define real change as we view men is to follow a carrot that we can never catch! What we think about change is fundamentally the view of who we are. This is why the order of change is only in the hands of God. He has declared all men under sin and made their ability to change an impossibility. Now listen ...in order for us to know who we are as sinners we must reject every other paradigm of deliverance than the calling of God. We must be brought into this relationship by a clear call. We must hear the Shepherds voice. Because God gives us real reality without the need to change. We are drawn into a world in which change comes through God meeting our needs so that he is alone is good. This voice is what gives us room to be free to become something that we do not try to become.      Remove Reply Quote Notify 1802  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 26, 2011, 04:12:07 PM Quote from: stonelifter on December 26, 2011, 02:56:14 PM Had Judas not Hung himself what do you think Jesus would have said to him after the resurrection? Jesus new he would hang himself cause he said it would be better had he not been born. If Judas had lived with the guilt and shame he felt.(a lot of guilt as he Hung himself over it) I wonder what Jesus would say or if he would even appear to him? It's an interesting hypothetical question I think. Yes..sl...We fail to think of Jesus as He confronted those people who wanted to destroy Him. We make Jesus like a political figure or a religious zealot trying to go against the system of that day. But as a man Jesus had a personal side. lol. Jesus was not just fighting an impersonal battle for us Americans transpose on His representation of what is a disciple. lol. Jesus wasnt creating a painting to counter act the false disciples of our day...lol Jesus was fighting against men who were evil and had evil intentions. He was living among men who wanted to meet Him in a dark alley. lol I do not think Jesus was even trying to show what a servant was or what it was to do the will of God. Otherwise we would need a whole seven volumes of do like Jesus did.lol But Jesus was fully engaged in the moment. He reacted like a real man. He bled..He was threatened and was angry. He wished for deliverance from His enemies. This is what was so attractive about Jesus because He was the most free man. People were drawn to Him on a personal level. Jesus was not the conception of whatever our culture wants Him to be. He was the most transparent man expressing Himself before God in the most honest way. Now listen... He really enjoyed sinners because He himself knew weakness as a man. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1803  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 26, 2011, 04:01:15 PM Quote from: billbennett on December 23, 2011, 11:05:03 PM On assurance. Let me take you back in time almost 40 years ago. I was a young believer, saved probably less than a year. Although I knew I was saved, a question was dominating my thinking. It went something time this: Lord I know I am saved today, but what if I really blow it sometime in the future? Will I still be your child? Sometime in the wee hours of the morning, I was reading the third chapter of Romans and came to this verse [Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.] I read that once and then again. The following became clear; my salvation had nothing to do about being good or keeping the law of God, but I had been saved, declared righteous in the sight of God by faith alone. And therefore I was His child. FOREVER! As I closed my Bible, I bowed by head and simply said "Thank you Jesus", and went to bed with the full assurance of my salvation. Now four decades later, I still haven't gotten over this amazing grace of God. Even through the difficult times, I have found God to be faithful. Bill Bill this is simply a powerful testimony. If more people in leadership made it this simple then we all would be assured as a group. I have read you since showing up here in 05 and this is one truth that bleeds through your writing. Its refreshing.    Reply Quote Notify 1804  Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Erik's essay: Root and Fruit on: December 26, 2011, 03:52:27 PM Thats the pure gospel rite there... Reply Quote Notify 1805  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 02:46:31 PM My own personal experience in this is how to respond depending on the level of mental illness. Does a person who is mentally ill have an IQ that is normal?Because there are some cases that cannot be solved without medication. It does no good for people to endure violence in order to be patient. Violence must always be put under control. In my case i have a severe mentally ill child. Sees characters.. talks to them...hears voices without his meds. He comes to get his meds before its time. I agree with that article but its not a gracious view. God works in spite of the average desire by normal people to control problem cases. God works individually to bring a person who struggles with an illness to be helped by keeping the anger at an acceptable level. Working through a person who is qualified even tho there are other people who practice a kind of neglect abuse. God protects the one abused by leading them in a path where they will get the most help. It may not be through the normal worldly means. It may not be through church even tho it is a big neglect that is a glaring problem. But God overcomes all of the obstacles to bring the best help in the most gracious way for people who give out of a loving heart. Unless God worked supernaturally to do this then the weak would be forgotten and abused beyond belief. Reply Quote Notify 1806  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 02:17:22 PM Heres what we have been disagreeing on. I ve been saying that we come to God as we are. No steps. God works directly through His word and does not speak to us through methods or words in the way you are saying. His word is alive. It is not a plan or a method. It is life itself. So here is what i am saying. We come to God and find transparency. Whether we are in a situation of abuse by our society. Name calling... slander... making people into our patients... or trying to make people more advanced in their christian lives through our particular religious organized mentor society it still does not produce freedom but more abuse. What makes us free is to on the one hand experience transparency before God and on the other hand to allow ourselves room to fail... to lesson our responsibility (make others carry the load as i do my son) so that we do not destroy ourselves and to keep ourselves focused on Gods time table. No rules no methods... just relationship. Reply Quote Notify 1807  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 01:55:04 PM Let me see if i can remember what i was led to in the clear instruction of scripture and Gods only words of remedy. Youve got to understand that society is like a big machine. The mechanics of the machine are developed through methods. Methods are developed through communication.As you can see Kk thinks that truth is obtained by reducing it into a few steps. This usually is the method... I know because I have a son that irritates me because he is mentally and physically handicapped. But man is always reducing things to methods so that he enjoys not being incumbered by other people who are not as able as he is. This is why we have in our move away from dogmatic doctrinal stances to a system ...kind of like a monarchy system of checks and balances. Its a unconstitutional system of making the courts parents or guardians of the American people. Although there is no other remedy other than do nothing and have massive chaos yet there are consequences that affect the freedoms of all Americans. One of these consequences is that in making the state more powerful than it should be you create through the system of mentoring a society of socially united people who are plugged into an authoritarian structure that is like socialism. Behind all of the unbridled authority is the money trail.  When you go from a system that is built from the constitution that gives people individual rites that guarantees everyone to be an individual proprietor and you make them trust in a system of mentors then it becomes a class ruling society. Youve got to understand that behaviors in an individual sense are basic problems of human nature. But when there are multiple corruptions in a mass of people then youve got to look at the systematic break downs of these individual rites guaranteed by constitution. The problems we are having are basically who is rite about what needs to be put in place in order to reverse these awful generational sins. The bible focuses on a few people who are in positions of authority as that by which it is necessary to reform. This motif is when we start engaging in real doctrinal apologetic. It identifies real problems and addresses real issues. This is the argument Kk and i are having now.     Reply Quote Notify 1808  Forums / Main Forum / Re: I'M SICK & TIRED!!! on: December 26, 2011, 12:05:41 PM Big orange.. i was suffering from depression..let me describe it to you...i was not able pull myself out of going to the depths of pain and sorrow. It was a period in my life where i would go to Gods word and not find comfort or joy. I would always feel desperate and try to feel good but then i would go deeper into sorrow. As you know no matter what words are used it just seems they lead to the same place. I would take the book of Psalms and call on God in numbness. But the numbness just led to a sinking feeling. But there were expressions of sorrow in this book that i really felt. I mean.. ive never felt these expressions of sorrow in the Psalms like they were expressed more than at that time in my life. It would hurt to feel these sorrowful cries as i spoke them. A lot of people use other methods to balance out their depression. I would do anything to relieve the sorrow and pain from that experience. But out of that time.. at the most sorrowful condition of my depression God led me to relief. So it did not seem at the time that it was doing anything. It just seem for those yrs that it did no value. The only thing i can compare it to was breathing out sorrow and descending into depression. But the light came when God moved in my life. So i am more aware both physical and emotionally what direction i am going in order to keep from spiraling down. So in my experience i did not think i was going to be helped but He responded with healing that i did not think was what i needed at the time. But not everyone has the same experience.   Reply Quote Notify 1809  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 26, 2011, 11:48:04 AM Kk is in denial of a God who is sovereign. Let me say that we live in a world in which Gods word is the only instrument that does not abuse or threaten in the creation of connection. Not only from God but its work in society. God just tells us what evil is that we do not know so that He shows us our hearts.  Outside of salvation man creates destruction by his corrupted efforts to obtain power by threats. We call men under sin as a natural bent to given to treachery.  This is why in Gods evolution of societies and out of the understanding of the histories of nations came our constitution. Just as God brought about the preciseness of doctrine through the gifts He ordained for men through His church so these understandings of free expression were funneled into this document of freedom.Now listen.. this constitution was given to silence men in scheming against their neighbor in establishing the rule of law. All identity is in word form. All evil is the creation of men who go outside of Gods law to establish their own identity. Now listen...a person is only free under the constraints of grace and divine love. The law is only necessary for those who in their hearts have a direction to rebel against its clear commands. I am not talking about allowances based upon weakness or being poor. Im talking about what in the bible is defined as a scheme based upon the clear desire to obtain a profit in this world not just financial but any kind of profit because of having a wicked heart. We must see that the fear of God is the beginning of living on the principle of treating others as you would want to be treated. The constitution was established to encourage men to be self respectful and then respect other men.Every evil intent of a mans heart is to establish a real plot to ensnare his neighbor in his business adventure. The constitution as a law was established to prevent men from developing schemes to destroy his neighbor. This is why the ot is focused on God as the only judge because He alone is worthy of giving man exactly what he deserves in truly seeing the world as it is. This is why God does hold a few men responsible for all men. Because God establishes the gods of this earth. But God separates himself from these few men in order to keep them from destroying mankind. Every intent of a god in his heart is a potential scheme against the world. This is how dangerous it is for a man to be a ruler. The small scheme puts the whole society in his trap.       Remove Reply Quote Notify 1810  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan, Demons, and Dogmatism on: December 26, 2011, 11:22:15 AM We must always determine to live apart from the world system and the religious system. We must seek in the rite way to be labeled out of touch with the current culture. To be a person who is not threatening we must silence people with our love for things they truly do not care about. When we live at peace we are enjoying a path that is clearly out of touch with the world. We love that God is the only one who is a God of salvation and we seek a reality in our minds that this God is outside of the reality of this world. We seek something that is not defined by men or connected in a way to the philosophy of this world so that men can draw conclusions about us in explaining who we are by what we believe.. lol. LOL We believe in the old fashion book. Its a book that we place all of our confidence in. Its the only book we hold up as the hope in this world. Its a book that we fasten on our foreheads and we speak when we wake up.. when we work..when we go to bed. This book in being on our tongues nite and day defines our friends ..how we talk..when we talk and who we know by what it tells us...lol LOL We live to be completely focused on one object of our affections. All of our joys.. all of our praise...all of our time and effort.. all of our blood ..sweat and tears go in focusing on this One Man. It does not matter how we think we are not worthy. We seek beyond our guilt...fear...shame...sin... sorrow...or any thing that gets in our way ... we seek to know this One Man. If we needed to be alone for the rest of our lives..if we rejected every man in our world..if we denied our basic needs ... it would be measure only by this One Thing. It would only be valuable as this One Man is worship!!!!! We obsess over our salvation . Love it ... love it more...love it until it hurts.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 1811  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Discipleship and Two- Line Mysticism on: December 26, 2011, 11:08:35 AM Two line theology is built on the supposition that we are to live a quiet and peaceable life in society. It seeks to put a barrier between the world and the church in an effort to obtain this peace. Two line is a mystical view of the world. In denying that moral success is not in word form it denies reality by a view that all things are equal. The gospel is not a message that is half of equation of meeting the needs of people who are in the world and in the church. Its a message that proves itself by the word becoming reality. Its success is seen as a history of actual events that are spoken into reality from heaven in one pathway. It delivers Gods people from the evil that is in the world and from the evil one who controls all world events. Two line destroys the incentive to be in a conquest by denying that the ot was a book of conquest. Two line teaches that God is holy and He needed to put the nation of Israel in their place by bringing the law to bear on Gods people. It seeks to focus on the individual and the secrets corruption of his heart but it denies the reality that sin is a universal corruption that holds society in its grips. Because of two line there is no talk of judgement because the gospel is an instrument to control Gods people through warnings and commands so they will force Gods hand through the behavior of people to create a gospel focus. But in denying that the ot was predominately a book about conquest it eliminates the desire to see that God is an apologetic God in the future as a God of conquest in the sense that He is immutable. We must see that the ot is a book that orders the world as God sees it. Its a book about God bringing history to a culmination in which He takes captive the captivity of this earth and He leads them to the heavenly justice. This God comes to His elect to deliver them from evil and death. The earth is a place of men who worship dead idols and God brings His elect to life so that they will stand as kings and priest being a big part of Gods just vengeance upon wickedness and wicked men though all eternity. Two line denies the personal nature of mans pain and suffering and portrays man as subject to the evils of this world as the necessary agent for being able to enter heaven. It denies the identity of Christ people as being delivered completely to be kings and priest of the Most High. It seeks to force the gospel into an inward world view. But we know that the ot is a world view that identifies the evils in their entirety as the method of bringing deliverance and freedom to Gods people. The fear of God is seeing the world through this idea that corruption is only personal as it is identified. It is not predominately a doctrine of positive thinking. Nor is it a doctrine of worm theology. But the ot in getting to the heart of sin deals with the totality of corruption as it is woven into the society as that by which man experiences the reality of sin. In this view we are given the ability to see the real needs and the real characters of life both good and evil. Two line seeks to make men just the subjects of Gods love and does not deal with the level of evil and the corrupted schemes that are just as evil as the corruption of mens personal evils of heart.        Remove Reply Quote Notify 1812  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: The Art of War on: December 25, 2011, 09:46:32 AM Nothing personal here but did you know that Jesus was pursued by a man who was just as part of the plan to bring Him to the cross as was the Devil himself. This man was playing the part of being a disciple but at the same time he was secretly undermining Jesus by going to the Pharisees. Jesus came as a man who was not representative of any organization in that day. The temple worship was dead and had fallen into a money making machine and the people were not prepared for this God Man. His glory was veiled and He was rejected by all men.  But this one man was very close to Jesus. In fact this man was a disciple. And yet Jesus knew what this man was conspiring because He was God and saw every thing. Jesus read the hearts of men. But just like Satan was constantly following Jesus around in order to kill Jesus before His death and resurrection so this man conspired against Jesus and was gathering a ban of evil men to surround Jesus. This man had a smile on his face in the presence of Jesus but he had destruction in his heart. He was the most deceitful man among all the evil men including the disciples. Jesus was not just in a war with Satan but he was in the middle of a conspiracy. This is why Jesus at one point told those He healed to not say any thing about these miracles. Because Jesus was giving Judas the rope to hang himself. Did you know that Jesus prayed for the death of this deceiver? Jesus was as fully human as He was God. He had to pray prayers that were in the complete will of God. Jesus started His ministry free of the schemes of evil men. But as He had success then He was rejected by all men. All men are guilty of conspiring against the judge of heaven. But Jesus was not just fighting against an invisible foe but He was in danger of having the wicked place their hands on Him and put Him to death. But Jesus was fully aware of their plots because He was always wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. Jesus endure the jeers of men and did not allow them to kill Him until He gave up His life. The Father heard His cries and protected Him from the death blow of men. Jesus was fully man.     Remove Reply Quote Notify 1813  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom of the Will.... J. Edwards on: December 22, 2011, 07:43:42 AM Philosophical Necessity is really nothing else than the FULL AND FIXED CONNECTION BETWEEN THE THINGS SIGNIFIED BY THE SUBJECT AND PREDICATE OF A PROPOSITION, which affirms something to be true. When there is such a connection, then the thing affirmed in the proposition is necessary, in a philosophical sense; whether any opposition or contrary effort be supposed, or no. When the subject and predicate of the proposition, which affirms the existence of any thing, either substance, quality, act, or circumstance, have a full and CERTAIN CONNECTION, then the existence or being of that thing is said to be necessary in a metaphysical sense. And in this sense I use the word necessity, in the following discourse, when I endeavor to prove that necessity is not inconsistent with liberty. The subject and predicate of a proposition, which affirms existence of something, may have a full, fixed, and certain connection several ways. (1.) They may have a full and perfect connection in and themselves; because it may imply a contradiction, or gross absurdity, to suppose them not connected. Thus many things are necessary in their own nature. So the eternal existence of being generally considered, is necessary in itself: because it would be in itself the greatest absurdity, to deny the existence of being in general, or to say there was absolute and universal nothing; and is as it were the sum of all contradictions; as might be shown if this were a proper place for it. So God's infinity and other attributes are necessary. So it is necessary in its own nature, that two and two should be four; and it is necessary that all right lines drawn from the center of a circle to the circumference should be equal. It is necessary, fit and suitable, that men should do to others, as they would that they should do to them. So innumerable metaphysical and mathematical truths are necessary in themselves: the subject and predicate of the proposition which affirm them, are perfectly connected of themselves. In the proposition above... once you take the power or reality out of the subject verb necessity .. you place it in the object. mbG Remove Reply Quote Notify 1814  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: OF THE WORK OF THE HOLY GHOST IN OUR SALVATION... Thomas Goodwin on: December 22, 2011, 07:34:22 AM Let us go over the particular actings of the soul, which are as a drawing out of those created principles, whether at or in our first conversion or afterwards; and we shall find that each and every particular thereof are attributed to this Spirit. [1.] Hast thou seen thy sinful condition, and been humbled, as to hell, for it? It is the Spirit's proper work, for which he was sent. Thus says Christ, John xvi. 8, ' When he is come he shall convince the world of sin.' And he says it to his apostles, when he was to send them into the world to convert men. And this is the first work of the three there rehearsed, that the Holy Spirit beginneth with, in conversion, viz., a conviction of a state of sin and unbelief. As it follows, 'of sin, because they believed not on me,' and consequently, of damnation, as having lived without God and Christ in the world; and this work, though it may seem too low for him, yet he is pleased to bear a title from it, and is termed a Spirit of bondage to us, as causing us to see our bondage to sin, and death, and hell: Rom. viii. 15, 'For ye have not received the Spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.' It is one and the same Spirit there spoken of, in respect of two contrary operations, who hath the title there of both. It is the Holy Ghost who is that Spirit of adoption there spoken of, whereby we (afterwards) cry,'Abba, Father. This you may also see, Gal. iv. 6, and in the next ver. 16 of that Rom. viii. It is the Spirit who also 'witnesseth to us that we are the sons of God;' and by the opposition it will follow that if the Holy Ghost be the Spirit of adoption spoken of, that he also was that Spirit of bondage; inasmuch as he doth discover to us our bondage; even as he is termed the Spirit of adoption, because he testifies our sonship. And the discovery of this our bondage is an infinite favour. For do not the great and wise ones of the world go hoodwinked quick to hell in a moment, and know not whither they are going until they are there? And of thyself thou couldst never have been thoroughly convinced of that; for the heart is deceitful above measure, who can know it? None without the light of this Spirit. For it is the spirituality of the law whereby he instructs men to know wisdom in the hidden point of their corrupt nature, as David, confessing it, speaks, Ps. li., 5th and 6th verses compared together, 'Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts; and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.' And without the light of which law the same David likewise confesseth, Ps. xix. 12, 'Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.' By which secret sins he understands the immediate ebullitions of corrupt nature. And it is he that ' searcheth the deep things of God,' 1 Cor. ii. 10; the hidden wisdom, ver. 7 ; hid in God, Eph. iii. 9; and reveals it to us, ver. 5. It is he, the same Spirit, that searcheth the deep deceitfulness of men's hearts, and reveals it to them, which David called wisdom in the hidden part. And it is Thou (says he to God) that makest me to know it; that is, thou by thy Spirit, who knowest all things, 1 Cor. ii. 10. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1815  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Genuine saving faith - Passing the tests on: December 21, 2011, 08:29:59 AM Mac does not believe in double predestination.. unless he has flip flopped since i heard him say it in his teaching.