1966	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom of the Will.... J. Edwards	on: November 17, 2011, 10:10:48 AM
1. Things are said to be necessary in general, which are or will be notwithstanding any supposable opposition from whatever quarter. But things are said to be necessary to us, which are or will be notwithstanding all opposition supposable in the case from us. The same may be observed of the word impossible, and other such like terms. 2. These terms necessary, impossible, irresistible, &c. more especially belong to controversies about liberty and moral agency, as used in the latter of the two senses now mentioned, viz. as necessary or impossible to us, and with relation to any supposable opposition or endeavor of ours. 3. As the word Necessity, in its vulgar and common use, is relative, and has always reference to some supposable insufficient opposition; so when we speak of anything as necessary to us, it is with relation to some supposable opposition of our Wills, or some voluntary exertion or effort of ours to the contrary. For we do not properly make opposition to an event, any otherwise than as we voluntarily oppose it. Things are said to be what must be, or necessarily are, as to us, when they are, or will be, though we desire or endeavor the contrary, or try to prevent or remove their existence: but such opposition of ours always either consists in, or implies, opposition of our wills. It is manifest that all such like words and phrases, as vulgarly used, are understood in this manner. A thing is said to be necessary, when we cannot help it, let us do what we will. So any thing is said to be impossible to us, when we would do it, or would have it brought to pass, and endeavor it; or at least may be supposed to desire and seek it; but all our desires and endeavors are, or would be, vain. And that is said to be irresistible, which overcomes all our opposition, resistance, and endeavor to the contrary. And we are said to be unable to do a thing when our supposable desires and endeavors are insufficient. We are accustomed, in the common use of language, thus to apply and understand these phrases: we grow up with such a habit; which, by the daily use of these terms from our childhood, becomes fixed and settled; so that the idea of a relation to a supposed will, desire, and endeavor of ours, is strongly connected with these terms, whenever we hear the words used. Such ideas, and these words, are so associated, that they unavoidably go together, one suggests the other, and never can be easily separated as long as we live. And though we use the words, as terms of art, in another sense, get, unless we are exceedingly circumspect, we shall insensibly slide into the vulgar use of them, and so apply the words in a very inconsistent manner, which will deceive and confound us in our reasonings and discourses, even when we pretend to use them as terms of art. I think this is the bases of our arguing for only one cause of change. That is that the scripture is the weight in which the will is moved apart from our power to move the will. Along with what he is about to say.
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1967  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace - don't think I get it on: November 17, 2011, 09:40:53 AM The apostle did not say that grace saves us from desiring to sin the same sin again. He did not say that grace gives us a temporary victory over a particular sin. But in the context of grace we have a new desire to face sin with the ability to count ourselves dead to sin and alive to God. But this is in the context of resisting sin and not being sinless. Because the apostle goes on to conclude that what he wants to do he does not do. The apostle is concerned for his sin but he knows that all of his desires are caused by the ability of God alone. So the apostle concludes that there is a war going on between his mind and the sinful nature. How does the apostle present his position as a good soldier in Christ? He argues with himself on the basis of what he is told about who he is. The apostle says that He already died to sin so that what he wants to do he does not do is not who he really is. This is what i call a christian concern for his condition. Its not falling into a pattern of sorrow that saps our spiritual energy and creates the disposition of double mindedness. But its getting back up and continuing on. This is being serious minded. What we must see is that sinners are safe to reason with themselves because wherever they look as the basis for their acceptance it brings them back to the reality of enjoying the grace they stand in. The way to get better is understanding how to apply the work of Christ to our present condition. So we say that sin is actually a blessing in disguise. Because sinners cannot fail to find hope and pleasure in the gospel of grace. Reply Quote Notify

1968  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Mind Renewal Through Transparency : The Psychology of Life on: November 17, 2011, 09:24:11 AM Quote from: geralduk on November 16, 2011, 05:48:25 AM I fear we are losing the simplicity that is in Christ. Gerald the gospel is both simple and complicated. We fail to advance the simple gospel by arguing against the complicated schemes of men. Look at the condition of the world. If the gospel message had a magic ability to silence all men then any person could just say Jesus alone is the way to God and it would advance common grace. But as you know men are not like this. Reality is that a man will present the gospel and the first reaction is for the reprobate to separate the message from the present direction of the world. In other words its not really in the words that Jesus saves but its applying the gospel so that men are convince by the authority of Christ that they must be made to see that they are not God ... only men.lol. Did you know that we can live with the mindset that opposes men in their occupation?... look at Acts in Ephesus.. Paul preached against buying idols. They shut down the idol shops and burned the idols...lol. The people were furious against the saints. Now the distinction was that the Christians did not try to boycott the idol stores they just stopped buying the idols because of their convictions. And they spoke against the idols in the context of the gospel. This was not in house problem...it was in the world problem that was addressed.The gospel is not just directed toward one sect in society but its a message that stands against wicked rulers and the rich who abuse the poor through false scales. Now the gospel of grace must be a real defender of the righteous.   Remove Reply Quote Notify

1969  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election on: November 17, 2011, 09:14:53 AM Quote from: THOR on November 15, 2011, 08:02:37 PM It was an analogy to show how a father -son relationship works between us and our heavenly father. Thor Ps: You were very concise If you cannot understand me ... come over to the Edwards freedom of the will and lets discuss....your claiming that your an expert in comprehension... and i am not writing things that in a logical way. Well the ball is in your court... lol. Now run off and google an Edwards reader.. lol Reply Quote Notify

1970  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: November 17, 2011, 09:00:35 AM The christian is always to be reminded that God is doing things in his life that is too wonderful to imagine. I know this is a hard concept for the suffering person. But in suffering we can be strengthened in how we focus. So I guess that pain is the enemy of pleasure in themselves. This is where we get confused because its not natural for us to see God as absolutely sovereign even over our pain and conclude that He is a good God. In this sense we are closest to longing for something that does not dwell in us...something in the future that is not on this earth... and coming face to face with our inability to be empowered to see the victory. This is what the Psalmist believed was being reduced to trust in His word alone from one moment to another. I mean there is a distinction between the word of revelation and the experience of joy from that revelation becoming alive in us. And maybe in the sense of what John is saying that we go from being a child in the faith to being a father because we go from a word to the reality in the sense that these experiences overshadow the pain at some point. Although there is no way to avoid reducing the quality of the life. This is why God sets one man up and brings one man down. Now this concept is setting the righteous man up and bringing the wicked man down. But i can see in this world of sin that it can be experience to some extent in the community of the elect also. At some point we a are all expendable. But at the same time i do not believe that we can let the desire for heaven be stronger than our desire to live a long life. I see this as the same fight we have with our flesh. In this sense the word of salvation is a desire to be free of physical pain as the evidence of the saving effects. Some religious people get really weird when they try to separate these holistic effects between the physical and spiritual. This life is predominately resisting unto death.  Reply Quote Notify

1971  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Do soul mates exist? on: November 17, 2011, 08:39:50 AM I think there are multiple reasons in attraction. And i do believe you can marry and have a relationship that is an awful experience. Is the concept of soul mate some kind of spiritual connection? It seems to me that soul mate presupposes there is a unity in the relationship that cannot be explained. In my opinion to focus the relationship on this supposed unity is like a house of cards. Because no one experiences unity all the time in a relationship. And people agree about things for the wrong reasons. The point is that when you get two sinners together your going see the reality of what sin does to a person. lol I think the psalmist distinguished between people who were closest to him with those he disagreed not living under the same roof. The point being it is possible for your enemy to be dwelling with you under the same roof. Jesus says that He came to set mother against father, etc. I think Jesus was saying that you are closest to experiencing the height of hate and the pleasure of love in the relationships that are closest to you. So there is a sense in which that  person is closest to you is the least able to judge you. When you have a marriage you have a covenant union. You put down you rites to advance your own agenda. The soul mate concept seems to me to advance the idea that your partner can save you from experiencing disunity. lol. That idea is just foolish.  Reply Quote Notify

1972  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election on: November 15, 2011, 06:39:39 PM Thor you make no sense.. we are discussing sovereign grace and your talking about your relationship with your children. Puzzling??? Reply Quote Notify

1973  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Mind Renewal Through Transparency : The Psychology of Life on: November 15, 2011, 12:14:15 PM Self denial is not accomplished in human force. Because God demands that we meet His standards of being able to atone for sin as if we had the sin of all men to our account. Because eternal atonement requires that when we do one sin we are guilty of breaking the whole law. Actually in breaking one law we have failed to keep the whole requirement of all the law. So that we are made to see that Gods response to mans predicament is the ultimate disaster that we only see from a distance. In other words however He responds in justice is beyond our ability to punish by our understanding out of our desire for justice. So that there is an impersonal demand in faith that God does punish sinners correctly.... to long for the punishment out of a sense of personal anger that we cannot understand but that is glorifying to God. This is only proper and it is realistic. This is like acknowledging that we are helpless to want something good in that person out of selfishness that is not what God is promising. To deny self is to acknowledge Gods rite to punish sin and sinners as He has said he will. This is why God is said in His reaction to sin and sinners ... to be a consuming fire. Fire goes out from Him and consumes His foes on every side. Think about this...His judgement on sinners is like a consuming fire that makes our way. That is an awful thing that we do not understand. But if we are to accept this by faith then we are glorifying God in praising Him for His work.  Remove Reply Quote Notify

1974  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom of the Will.... J. Edwards on: November 15, 2011, 11:57:17 AM CONCERNING THE MEANING OF THE TERMS, NECESSITY, IMPOSSIBILITY, INABILITY, &C. AND OF CONTINGENCE THE words necessary, impossible, &c. are abundantly used in controversies about Free-Will and Moral Agency ; an therefore the sense in which they are used should clearly understood. Here I might say, that a thing is then said to be necessary when it must be, and cannot be otherwise. only other option is a contradiction But this would not properly be a definition of Necessity, any more than I explained the word must, by the phrase, there being Necessity. The words must, can, and cannot, need explication as much as the words necessary, and impossible; excepting that the former are words that in earliest life we more commonly use.talking about common day uses of these words The word necessary, as used in common speech, is a relative term; and relates to some supposed opposition made to the existence of a thing, which opposition is overcome, or proves insufficient to hinder or alter it. scientifically speaking its represented as a scale of weights. That is necessary, in the original and proper sense of the word, which is, or will be, notwithstanding all supposable opposition. To say, that a thing is necessary, is the same thing as to say, that it is impossible that it should not be. unless the weight moves the scale then it cannot prove one way or the other impossible that the lighter side could overcome the heavier side.. the weight equal on both sides is nothing.  But the word impossible is manifestly a relative term, and has reference to supposed power exerted to bring a thing to pass, which is insufficient for the effect; as the word unable is relative and has relation to ability, or endeavor, which is insufficient. Also the word irresistible is relative, and has always reference to resistance which is made, or may be made, to some force or power tending to an effect, and is insufficient to withstand the power, or hinder the effect. The common notion of Necessity and Impossibility Implies something that frustrates endeavor or desire. Here several things are to be noted. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1975  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: OF THE WORK OF THE HOLY GHOST IN OUR SALVATION... Thomas Goodwin on: November 15, 2011, 11:35:42 AM CHAPTER IV. His operations upon the church, the body of Christ; and that first as collectively taken, the whole thereof. H. Let ns now consider the operations of the Holy Ghost in and upon the church, collectively taken, as the body of Christ. 1. He (alone) was the first founder of the church of the New Testament. The apostle, writing to the Ephesians, who (as you know) had formerly gloried of their temple of Diana as one of the seven wonders of the Gentile world, sets before them, chap. ii., an infinitely far greater and more glorious temple, whereof they themselves, he tells them, were a part, even the church universal of the New Testament, consisting of Jew and Gentile: Eph. ii. 21, 'A building fitly framed together, that groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord.' But then, who is the builder and framer of this fabric, age after age, till all is perfect? And through whom also is it that this temple, when built, is consecrated unto God for a mansion-house or habitation, who hath the whole world to dwell in? The 22d verse shews both, 'In whom' (namely, Christ) 'ye' (Ephesians) 'are also builded up together for an habitation of God through the Spirit;' which in the coherence with the former, is as if he had said, He that made you, the Ephesians, a church (which was as a particular member of that universal body), as 'members in particular,' 1 Cor. xii. 27, the same Spirit was the builder of that great cathedral in which are comprehended all particular churches as smaller oratories; so as he is the great founder of all, both in the whole, yea, of every member that worships therein. Thus, in ver. 18, 'Through him' (namely Christ) 'we have both' (Jew and Gentile) 'access to God' (but) 'through the Spirit.' Yea, he is the soul of this one body;  Eph. iv. 4, ' There is one body and one Spirit.' Christ bears the relation of head to this body; but who is the universal soul, which is in all, and every part of it? It is the Holy Ghost; and oh! how glorious a church and body shall Christ have, when all are met and set together, and filled full of this Spirit at the latter day! Eph. v. 27. At that day it is he will 'present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle , or any such thing.' Thus spake the husband, the head, of this spouse. But who is the soul that gives this beauty, that formed this symmetry of all the members, and adds life to all? The Holy Ghost. And now, let us think what a mighty and vast work this of forming and building the universal church is, whereof this Holy Spirit is the former and effecter.  There was a perfect pattern and platform of the whole and every member thereof in God's breast, an idea also in Christ's (as appears by the lastcited Eph. v.) which this Spirit will bring in the end the whole unto, and frame each living stone in the building to bear a due, suitable, and comely proportion in the whole, and each to other. And this is, and hath been providentially a-doing and a-framing in every part thereof, in all and every age, and hath been wrought from the beginning of the world, in the several parcels apart, even as each piece of tapestry in hangings use to be wrought in little bits and small parcels, which, when finished, are then at last set together. And this Spirit, who is the dedolator, the architectonical master-workman, i cant find these two words in the dictionary. lol hath in his eye every degree of grace he works in every of these members' hearts who is a stone in this building, according to the pattern which the Father and Christ have in their idea and model, of every particular, as also of the whole, and exactly frames each and the whole unto their mind, and misseth not the least of the set proportion in the pattern, which, in so long, so various, and multifarious a work to do (as this therefore must be supposed), what infinite wisdom and power doth it require, and argues him to be God, that is in God, as the spirit of a man within him, and ' searcheth the deep things of God.' Remove Reply Quote Notify

1976  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election on: November 15, 2011, 08:29:33 AM Thor... God is good. Thats His nature as our Father. There is not mixture of Gods purposes with earthly fathers. Earthly fathers are not holy. Only God is holy. Whatever we enjoy as good in this life comes through Gods divine initiative or call. When i talk about me as a father giving good gifts to my children it is through the vehicle of Gods love to me. It is all gifted. Or else in some way i share in the goodness of God. lol. Grace applied to me not only covers my personal receiving of gifts by my ability to respond to others with gifts. This is why you and i stand on opposite sides. Because you see no contradiction in my question what choice is worthy of grace? If anything is worthy of grace then it ceases to be grace. lol. I mean the real grace of scripture. All of salvation is necessarily in God. We just carry out through the ability that grace provides. There is no other object of worship that is equal or greater than God. Because there is no person in this world that we can cause to choose one way or the other. This is a dreamy power from your side of the fence. All choices are within the divine withholding of to produce the choice. Without Gods willing things into existence we are left to our own devices. We are so evil that we take the simple gospel and imagine it to be a method by which we can create our own connection in a fundamental sense. In doing this we take the focus of of a gospel that is in God alone and we lower it to do things it does not do.   Let me give you the biblical view of this. In essence the expression of love between humans as compared to Gods love is the expression of hate. lol. No other option exist in the universe of Gods sovereign expression of grace. Personal experiences of love come through how God as Father defines His words to us in communicating love.lol Its not that we experience a form of love that causes us to know love. But its that we distinguish between Gods love and mans love that brings us to the real causes of love and knowing that we are loved personally. This is why we always start with unfailing love as the basis of our personal confidence that we are loved without failure if we understand who God is by what He does. To blame God for the worlds pain is to lower the way God expresses His love through a divine initiative apart from the wills of men. God loves on the basis that He alone is good and there is no one like Him. lol. He is God the most high Father who through pure grace shows us this only real relational love. Whatever failure we have on a human level is not because we do not understand how to connect but its because we fail to be reminded of Gods covenant love. This unfailing love is the cause of our encouragement in this world. Whatever we say to God as Father is fundamentally a divine love that we love from. All of our encouragement to respond to God is from this love that is not connected to what we feel about ourselves and others. Its a love that produces in us the encouragement to know what our purpose is and who we are in the world.      Reply Quote Notify

1977  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 15, 2011, 08:04:42 AM Thank kk for asking..I know this is extremely difficult. I am saying this vision is not just a vision of the future but we know that God is immutable. He never changes. So it extends into eternity past in how God has designed His responding to the corruption of this world. When we are discussing this vision we are describing the past renewing of the world and the mind of the saint with this fundamental application to all the world events. We look at the work of these angelic beings in the ot narrative but we get a glimpse in the vision of how it is processed in the heavenly design. Remember that we believe the ot is the nt concealed and the nt is the ot revealed. Whatever we neglect as the nt saints is to our own harm. God has designed the means to process His eternal decrees. So we are involved with a rich language as it is processed through this vision. The language is not only applied to the corrupted world but it is to give us a vision of our own faith. We are not just involved in a world of thought that has already been accomplished as if there is not beginning or end in the purposes of our lives. But the reality of heaven in this vision is absolutely essential to how we view God. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1978  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Discipleship and Two- Line Mysticism on: November 15, 2011, 07:53:51 AM Two line blurs the reality that love and hate actually exist. If love is not particular and absolute then hate must be the expression in some way to procure that love and to continue in that love. If love is universal then it is watered down to the level that man and God share in the same concern for all men. Two line is a concept that reverses the cause of identity to be from an earthly relationship as the basis of the heaven relationship. There is no distinction between Gods sovereign design in creating the ends for which He gets the glory and the commands of obedience. In other words if God is the great clock maker from all eternity then He depends upon mans response as the basis of receiving and giving of divine love.lol Two line blurs the great gulf between Gods total personal effects and mans inability to receive these effects from God alone. It is an effort to draw the focus away from Gods covenant love from the beginning as particular to describe it in more of a universal system of checks and balances. The message is only holistic as it comes in the forms and vehicle of the doctrines of grace. This means that its miss applied as a general love to the saints. And its watered down in its judgement expression to the world. It does not focus on repentance as a distinguished message to the saints from the message to the world. What ever we describe as the gospel is the flavor of the medicine. If the gospel is believed without a personal application in these doctrines of grace then there is no joy to the true saint. The point of the gospel is that it reforms in its application of grace. lol. So that it comes as too good to be true on the one hand and the most awful message on the other hand. Remove Reply Quote Notify

1979  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Psalms study... on: November 14, 2011, 08:03:50 PM Messianic prayer and praise for deliverance and future blessing. waited patiently...in waiting,i waited fig.. polypioton...the repetition of the same part of speech in different inflections. the Lord.. Jehovah inclined....hath inclined heard ..hath heard brought hath brought rock... refuge a new song..new unheard of before. God... Elohim see and fear... paronomasia....peer and fear...the repetition of words similar in sound but not necessarily in sense. trust...confide in as to be secure and without fear. blessed...happy beatitudes...not always to bless but happinesses. It is the plural of majesty or accumulation and means O the happinesses . man ...strong man ..man in respect to his physical strength as Enocsh does in respect to the depravity of nature. hast don...didst thoughts....anthropophatheia....condescension... if I would...fain would I numbered or rehearsed 6 ... sacrifice ...heb. 10:5-9...to slay.. hence to offer what has been slain offering...the meal offering.. a present ..as such...hence a gift offering, notnecessarily to secure admittance but to secure favour. blood or without blood. meal offering ...sin offering...trespass offering. opened..digged...opening by digging or boring. Obedience is the great truth here conveyed... sacrifice and offering... ears pierced... burnt offerings..sin offerings..come to do The Messiah came into the world to perform what was prophesied when He had become Incarnate and could say I am come. He must change the word ears to the body in which that obedience was to be accomplished, and He had a right to change the words and thus adapt them. has required...didst  require I come...or i go in time past after Incarnation I come volume of the book..scroll..that is to say the book...Genitive of Apposition... fig Pleonasm..the book of the law.redundancy...where what is said is immediatly after put in another or opposite way to make it impossible for the sense to be missed. it is written..it is prescribed. of me...for me delight....double delight will ...good pleasure within...in the midst heart...bowels...my inward parts.... preached...declared as glad tidings... evangelizo in nt... heart...bowels...my inward parts... congregation....assembly or convocation... have not hid...did not hid salvation or deliverance... have not concealed..did not conceal from ...in withold not thou thou wilt not withhold... evils...calamities Remove Reply Quote Notify

1980	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Meditation	on: November 13, 2011, 03:23:37 PM
Meditation is simply an exercise of receiving spiritual illumination from the total portion that is memorized in context with the individual word and verse. So in memorization we have a view from the mind that is back logged with spiritual illuminations in which the Spirit orders how we are to live in each moment of time with the most available experience of eternal longings. It is like going from a kind of cave man study from a word on a page to the experience of angels. lol Mediation is spiritual reality that comes through supernatural methods upon the understanding... ie looking through the spiritual view of reality in the future. So its an illumination of the work of God out of thinking thoughts after God. In meditation we receive an assurance that what we pray for we will get. So in meditation we actually trust in this supernatural confidence that God has given us ...He makes us bold and stouthearted. This may seem to be pride that is evil. But without assurance in a realistic experience we only fall into double mindedness. Now listen..mediation leads us to confrontation but it keeps us from danger of the hands of evil men, the schemes of the wicked, the death blow from the devil, and being overcome by the desires of the wicked. And it is a learned art form that cannot be experienced without practice and seeing the fruit of the meditation in the time span of years. It takes years to bring down a kingdom or a fortress of the Devil. In mediation we are actually acting as in betweens who experience the front line threats and we stand as the arbitrators of keeping people from the evil intents of men.  To achieve a doctorate in true meditation we must pray the rite way and have the assurance as if we knew that nothing or no one could thwart what God has given us in the illumination.Listen its like a warrior who goes out to fight and has been promised that nothing can stop him. All of his enemies will be like mud to his feet. There is a distinct understanding of this flow from heaven and a kind of voice of the purpose of our particular circumstance. But its not a natural ability in responding...its a supernatural balance. Its from a second invisible source. Not from our own hands.     1981  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 13, 2011, 03:00:48 PM Ive been listening to some teaching on this. And its clear to me that we are teaching as if this revelation was disjointed. But if you go to the end of the book it promises to give us a special blessing if we read and understand this big painting of how God responds to the corruption of the world. I think the application to us is what is that blessing. So we need to see that all of the principles that are introduced in the revelation are then given specific responsibilities in responding to us in our particular circumstances in this corrupted world as that by which our prayers are encouraged and our faith is strengthened. The ot word of salvation as a general longing into reality is completed in our receiving these visions as a spiritual experience in the future reality. The vision is made to bring about a mature mind out of a sense of our union with Christ who is responding in the vision from the revelation. I hope to apply this in lite of knowing the whole book by memory.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 1982  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: November 13, 2011, 02:48:34 PM One of the things we do not consider is how we are related to God. We are always trying to make a distinction about ourselves and how we feel about our circumstances as if Gods glory were against us and we must realize that we go through something because God must alone get the glory. lol. But this is not a wise way to think. This comes from many different religious philosophies of self denial. The bible however seeks to bring us to be at peace an hope of being saved in the future as the evidence that God indeed sits on His throne as the great Shepherd of our souls. Our identity in heaven is being like the Lamb of God who has purchased us for Himself. He leads us to eternal life. Or He redeems all of our pain both personal and circumstantial in His responding to us as a loving Father. That is why we focus on a word. But its not really the glory of God alone but its the word of salvation that brings about the glory of God. A lot of our problem is that we stop at the giving God glory but  than we do not focus on by enjoying Him. lol In fact i really believe that we cannot give God glory out of our sense of self denial but out of our understand that He loves us with an unfailing love. So i see it as we enjoy God so that we can glorify Him. lol. Listen ... we only long for one thing. Its the word of salvation. If you search for wisdom then you will be rewarded. Not necessarily in this life ...although we are encouraged to ask and we shall receive. But i really believe that most of the disagreements we have are because we fail to think correctly about God and then we advance our own agenda that is natural to most people.Listen to me the gospel is for those who apply it to themselves as if no one else had it available to them. Outside of thinking correctly about the gospel then we just advance ourselves in how others are in our own circumstances. I am amazed at how much false information we will accept as a cog in the big process.   Reply Quote Notify 1983  Forums / Theology Forum / Discipleship and Two- Line Mysticism on: November 13, 2011, 02:34:42 PM Ive been thinking about this topic for quite some time but  was hesitant to discuss it. I see a pattern in teaching that is harmful to the process of growth. A lot of this christian life is trying to avoid the immediate results in place of encouraging long term changes. Its like trying to learn a hobby... like fishing.. you can have the fish spoon fed to you or you can learn how to fish and that will bring the balanced results in an individual sense. My idea of discipleship comes from the wisdom books. And i think if you put me in a group of people i probably would be most comfortable to those who seem to be different than the people who just fall in line. I believe that laziness is defined as not learning to think for yourself. Even tho the bible has a way of thinking it does not specify how we are to apply it to a given situation in life. Because we have developed a social net for people it really is a system for them to fall on. My personal opinion on this is that all of us should be able to start from the same starting line. So why would you be penalized because the system is not entirely correct and you will not participate? The christian life is not ordered in a way in which everything we confront agrees with our way of doing things. So we go from our pagan society in which everyone wears the same things to a christian life that is unexplainable and messy when we are looking at being in this world. This i think is why we try to develop a distinction between justification by faith on one side and sanctification on the other side. In my opinion this is from the philosophy that there are contradictions in the christian faith and so we teach a form of antinomianism since it encourages us to be socialistic rather than individualistic. I hope to paint a picture of a true disciple.   Reply Quote Notify 1984  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Doctrine of Election on: November 13, 2011, 09:17:13 AM Quote from: THOR on November 11, 2011, 02:09:20 PM Quote from: rstrats on November 09, 2011, 08:48:57 AM THOR, re: “Well if your belief is that all things are determined and choice is an illusion...” I do not have those beliefs. Good! Quote re: “The poor person consigned to Hell who is born to be abused as a child and then become a vicious killer has no hope of deliverance. He is punished for a life he is not responsible for living.” Why do you say he is not responsible for the evil things that he has done?  If he was born with a predilection to sin and do evil and at the same time predetermined to go to hell, then any good or bad actions have no effect in changing that outcome. if I make a car part deliberately defective and put in in a car and it causes an accident because it failed to function like a good part then the fault would be in it's maker and not the helpless part. How was being made wrong the parts fault? Quote re: “.  Does that sound reasonable? That makes G-d into someone terrible and that is not Biblical!” It doesn’t sound any less reasonable than to torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right  character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being. God gives free will to man and that makes man responsible for what he knows and understands. God sets the punishment and what we think is not relevant.  Eternal Hell for Rejecting G-d is an equal punishment for the crime.  It does not make G-d less loving...only from the view of a finite mind. Thor How many choices that a man makes are worthy of Gods grace? Reply Quote Notify 1985  Members Only / Purgatory / Re: Taking Heaven By Force on: November 12, 2011, 08:09:49 AM Dont let the sun go down on your anger does not include righteous indignation. But it is a mandate that we do not retaliate. Some of the teaching about forgiveness in the context of American psychological universalism is to not hold anything against anyone as the basis of finding psychological wholeness . But not only is this not biblical but its an imagination or a suggestion that will crumble. It will lead a person to abandon praying in a holistic way as the scripture balances out Gods judgements with His mercy. God is both angry and loving at the same time in two different relationships. No one can honestly say that they are at peace with every man. Unless of course they think in terms of what is possible and not what is reality in the present. But to think of possibilities is to imagine what is true but in measuring what love is in community the standard is compared to hate. lol. If there is no hate then who knows what love really is? If God did not express His anger toward the reprobate in punishing reprobates then His word cannot be trusted. lol. What we need to see is that God ask us some times to be driven by more hate than love. I dont mean personal hate but righteous indignation. In a religious context we can get really weird. Christians can loose a sense of the real world and the real dangers by what they know to be true about themselves and God. We should be the most aware of the things that are expressed towards us by the words that are said. Listen a double minded man does not understand himself in the circumstances of life and how the purposes of God are being worked out in his life. We must apply wisdom that is not available to the reprobate. We of all people must know the level of communication and the reasons for that communication. Or we are in danger of falling to the Devils schemes. The process of living in reality in understanding and applying wisdom is to know what how the Devil tries to get us to retreat. The way the Devil does this is through ideas that enter our minds. Ideas are what is self speak. These ideas are formed in our minds by the our understanding of being born in sin. We are trying to be transform by the word and Spirit. We can be our own worse enemy by having a mind that is controlled by the flesh. The natural mind does not understand the things of God.Saints have been given a new mind but even tho we can be blind sided by the world and the Devil yet the basis of our confidence is in Christ. Christ saves us from harm even tho we are not altogether transformed. But this is the artistic learning of a mature christian. He not only understands the schemes of the devil but he knows the spirit of the scheme. Listen we live in a kind of brain washing that we cannot get out of. We really never have a complete view of the evil or the attack in the words. This is why we are encouraged to look straight ahead and not turn to the rite or the left. In other words the bible describes our potential of being deceived as just in the tendency to lose focus on the goal. Its not really in the idea that we have arrived. Our protection is our ability to put the words of scripture in ideas and orders that are rite. The more we apply the scripture to the thinking process of our minds the more we are going to be able to answer the words of fools. We do not live in an emotional world of acceptance by the imagination that we love everyone but we live in a world of opposition to all that we believe! This is the holistic protection that we have. Its understanding who God is and knowing ourselves by it. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1986  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Mind Renewal Through Transparency : The Psychology of Life on: November 10, 2011, 01:33:49 PM A lot of the equality and psychology talk today just enforces a code of conduct that is circular and not transforming. We all can use the same words and not talk about the same concepts. So we have a way of thinking like the world with biblical phrases. This really is what we must overcome. I do not believe that immaturity comes from a lack of self control in a moral way as much as its a self talk in which we talk ourselves into not growing and focusing on the rite things of redemption. So the Devil always gets us to think around the truth without focusing and applying the truth in a personal way. Incomplete truth always focuses on the method of overcoming rather than always starting with the cause of the problem. So change comes from the process we are going through rather than creation to re creation. We can talk about self sacrifice and pain and have it in a totally different context than what the scripture is saying. In fact our natural understanding in self sacrifice is to apply it to the other guy and make sure the sin is not their sacrificing. But we must start from ourselves so that instead of it leading to more pain and rules it addresses us as separate from all other men. A lot of the Psalms are addressed to God as if the psalmist experience was what self sacrifice. But these are prayers in which the effects of the psalmist prayers is the experience of freedom. Theres a humanist view of the Psalms that only deals with the words of the psalms and not the experience that comes as a result of the order of the words. The Psalms are prayers to get a free response from a sovereign God for the purpose of knowing that God does indeed bless the selfless person and does not leave them in the pain, guilt and sorrow that is talked about in the psalms. lol. This is why we believe that the gospel is not just a view that transforms our world but it causes us to think a certain way so that we will  not think naturally. We are taught to think in a way where we actually are able to be changed by a supernatural work done on our behalf. But we see that religion today is focused on what we do as the motif for self sacrifice and the pain is what we do not do to obtain a new life. lol.  We must understand that if we just saw a process as the way we overcome pain then if there was no event in which God intervened then we still would be left in the valuable pain that is supposed to change. It  would be like glorying in having to be under socialism because we failed to respond in the British war. We would be glorying in being dominated by Britain as represents the pain that is Gods changing hand. lol.  But we actually see in the event of the cross that it was a real event that brought about a freedom to us. So that in an event we have a new conversion. We must understand that the gospel is not focused on us being molded by God through pain as if God was a sadist who must force our hand. But that we are led along in our natural pain with the hope that there will be a new conversion to give us victory. In other words we accept that prayer is the method that brings us to second causes for the purpose of real redemption and not having to pray over the same pain as the definition of self sacrifice. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1987  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 10, 2011, 12:57:00 PM The response from heaven is ordered by God in response to earthly powers. The language is filled with these descriptions of the nations. Its not just that God orders salvation to spread to the nations but is that He brings in His kingdom by bringing one king down and raising another up. And this is why our own powers as saints are without the threats of a mighty army because in heaven the powers are order through the word of God. This is why we have the seals. The kings of this earth have their horses. This represents their oppressive power. But its not just a political power but its a power of economy as well. We must understand that even tho earthy power is depended on the strength of their armies that God is in heaven and He has a multitude of angels that do Gods will in responding to these evils. This is why we have the unlocking of the seals and the sending forth of these horses. This is very important because redemption is tied to Gods spoken word. He speaks and all is done. So in our individual weakness we only have His promise that His word cannot return void. What is it that is so frustrating about this world? Its that we want good to triumph over evil and in the process be blessed in our own situation. But this is not visible rite now. But this is where we must focus on . We must see how heaven is order so that we will know there is a connection to His word that goes out from us and it actually rises to the heavens. Not only does it rise to the heavens but it orders future events. This is why we get so confused and we get tunnel vision because we do not consider that His word actually saves us from a very small understanding of the redemption that God is working behind the scenes. He draws us to the big view by our focusing on His word not as just a means to understand but as a means to create future world events. But its interesting that God also uses trumpets. I kind of think that these trumpets are like the bells you hear in the middle of the city. They gong and get louder as they near the last bell. It is an ot concept that the horns are equal to leaders expressing their authority over Gods authority. They blow the horns prior to attacking the armies of Israel. But we see this sound from heaven that speaks the absolute destruction of the kings of this earth. The angelic living creatures announce the sound of the trumpets as a warning of the final destruction of the earth and the judgement of the inhabitants of the earth.  Let me bring this down to our level. We have access to these sounds of heaven. We can pray according to Gods will and then sound the trumpet of warning that God is coming in judgement.  When we go to praying and speaking that sound gets louder and louder until we see heaven respond in an Apocalyptic way. We must understand that Gods word has this drawing effect. It draws us out of our own anxious view of the world and brings us into a communication of heaven. We understand John weeping because there is no one who can open the seals. There is a longing in a saint that these seals would be more and more revealed in the response from heaven over the evil governments of this world. The word of God brings us to the ultimate reality that His word is ordering the events from heaven as we experience the powers and evil forces of this world in our experience. We must resist this world and its powers by word and Spirit. We see a little bit of what is coming in response to that word.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 1988  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: It takes a general to defeat a prince. on: November 10, 2011, 11:43:51 AM cont.... now you may think i am describing a world view that has no personal responsible desires. Theres no human feeling involved. Theres no connection to personal desires for vengeance or love. But actually this is not the case. I am accusing the world of hating things that do not exist. Of trusting in powers that are just a form of mystical wishes.  You must understand that the christian world view actually leads a man to the most personal experience in his circumstances that are as close to the real powers and real feeling by experience that a man can know. Personal knowledge is only found in knowing by experience what God has said from Gods emanations of glory from eternity. We live in a personal universe where God rules all space not in a universe where we are actually searching for God. lol. But we are accused of knowing things in a spiritual sense that they say are out rite lies. I mean they think we love foolish things. I spend a lot of time memorizing scripture and i am always confronted with the foolishness of this. People do not value things in this world that are not physically valuable. So we know we are in a sense going in the rite way when everyone rejects what we focus so hard on. lol. If you want to gain your life in this world ... you got to lose it for real experience. We do not look at the ulterior reasons in a given situation. But we focus on the heart of the issue. We do not talk ourselves out of how strong on the one side the opposition is and on the other side how weak we are in our own strength. We glory in our infirmities. We know ourselves because we know how powerful and sovereign God actually is.  With that said we value real rest from our selves. I think the evil in most of this religious environment is not to see this reality and conclude that we are rite and the other person must follow our prescription of things no matter what. The most dangerous and blind experience in this world is to have a false knowledge of God. This is why the Pharisees made someone twice the man of hell than if they never met him. Just like we hate evil we must be as wise as serpents in religious things.  Reply Quote Notify 1989  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: It takes a general to defeat a prince. on: November 10, 2011, 10:53:02 AM cont... Let me give the biblical idea of applying the truth in a realistic way and not with some kind of deal mentality or from a mans system having ulterior motives. But the bible opens up with a disaster that detemines the fate of every individual as if men were locked into a direction that was hopeless. In other words it describes the state of men in sin as if men were without hope at the time of their birth. So that in time whatever men do in this world only supports what God has determined for the end of men. Its like the world is one big jail and men are locked up until the judgement because of one mans sin in the beginning of time. We must not just accept a persons view of things or the way of the wisdom of this world at face value. We must not be the bearers of other mans opinions. But we must start from the position that every man has a bias in his alone description of events. There is only one person who knows... really knows how to describe what is transpiring in our lives. There is only one true marker by which we can be freed from our biases. That is what God describes for us not as a way to follow but it actually is a freedom of thinking that creates future reality. If i could say this all reality will lead every man to silence. lol. And in this sense God alone is the judge. This is why God absolutely must decree whatsoever comes to pass as the basis of what we define as reality of purpose in this world. Outside of God ordering events we are left with chance and self destructive ordering in our own lives. The reason is that we cannot decide from our view of rite and wrong what is to be applied in our situation as if we were free to order our own safety by it. We must continuously look through the lens of divine revelation. This is why the view of every man as a morally responsible person in society is hopeless from that mans birth.I mean we can read about the evils of this world but we will never come to a total view and a very intricate view of the reasons and the purposes in the moral of the story until we see it as God views world events. You see a lot of religious people are caught in the middle of their desire for justice and their wondering why it never comes out in a positive way. They are always tossed too and fro by every wind of doctrine. lol. The bible says that evil starts in the heart of man because men refuse to think about God. There is not thought of God in their hearts. The problem with men is not their crimes so to speak but its that they are their own teachers. They naturally have itching ears to hear what they want to hear. This is why men are caught in between their blindness to search for truth outside themselves as the only way they are going to understand themselves and their propensity to just continue to speak like all men speak. lol.      Reply Quote Notify 1990  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: It takes a general to defeat a prince. on: November 10, 2011, 10:28:28 AM 1 Kings 2:5 “Now you yourself know what Joab son of Zeruiah did to me—what he did to the two commanders of Israel’s armies, Abner son of Ner and Amasa son of Jether. He killed them, shedding their blood in peacetime as if in battle, and with that blood he stained the belt around his waist and the sandals on his feet.   2 Samuel 18:5 The king commanded Joab, Abishai and Ittai, “Be gentle with the young man Absalom for my sake.” And all the troops heard the king giving orders concerning Absalom to each of the commanders. 2 Samuel 18:10 When one of the men saw what had happened, he told Joab, “I just saw Absalom hanging in an oak tree.” 2 Samuel 18:11 Joab said to the man who had told him this, “What! You saw him? Why didn’t you strike him to the ground right there? Then I would have had to give you ten shekels of silver and a warrior’s belt.” 2 Samuel 18:14 Joab said, “I’m not going to wait like this for you.” So he took three javelins in his hand and plunged them into Absalom’s heart while Absalom was still alive in the oak tree. You got to make a distinction here about honor. The account of David is intriguing because there is a distinction between war speech and peace  time speech. Joab was guilty of conspiring against the king in peace time in his directing Davids men to act to balance the scales so to speak. In fact if you look it was said of David 2 Samuel 14:19 The king asked, “Isn’t the hand of Joab with you in all this?” The woman answered, “As surely as you live, my lord the king, no one can turn to the right or to the left from anything my lord the king says. Yes, it was your servant Joab who instructed me to do this and who put all these words into the mouth of your servant. 2 Samuel 14:20 Your servant Joab did this to change the present situation. My lord has wisdom like that of an angel of God—he knows everything that happens in the land.” I believe that David as an observer was like a prophet. David was the only one who acted as a prophet priest and king of Israel of all the kings. So i think it is clear that David saw rite through what Joab was doing. But at the same time Joab was a fierce warrior in battle. David was the most honorable man and would not go out against Joab because David only did what the Lord told him to do. Do you know that God told people in the ot to say things that were not entirely true about a situation... not to say certain things but to only tell half truths for the purpose of advancing Gods redemption over the moral story idea? I mean from our view of all the circumstances and purposes that are incomplete. The world must be taught to apply wisdom to a circumstance as continuously changing not necessarily in a system.  I believe that Davids lack of candor in how he directed the justice in peace time was not from his blindness but from him waiting on God to act. David would not take personal retribution against Joab even tho he was part of Absaloms death. This is why if you get into the psyche of the king in the book of Psalms you will see that he was so focused on the glory of God that it seems like he was lenient toward dealing with these insurrections within his kingdom. But David was acting as a prophet and knew that in Gods time all things were made rite. He did whatever God wanted him  to do. He definitely was not a man pleaser... lol   Reply Quote Notify 1991  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Meditation on: November 08, 2011, 08:33:02 AM Meditation is simply focusing on Gods word and thinking about it. In some people meditation goes much deeper than just reading it and focusing on it. But they actually memorize the word and it becomes a different world in their minds. Theres a little difference between reading the word and meditating on it and actually putting it in our minds in a kind of structure so there is more of a balance because its an inner spiritual balance of comparing near scriptures with far scriptures in the same meditation. If we are able to chew the cud so to speak then we are ingesting a meal and not just an idea. Meditation is like exercising the soul of its maladies. Mediation is an experience and not just a way to wisdom. The soul in its natural cold state is weighted down by many ideas that wage war against the renewed disposition in the original creation. Mediation simply is a design that one experiencing going from the weight of corruption in a natural sense to a free experience of spiritual conversions. So when we memorize large portions of scripture the future reality that we experience becomes an assurance that what we experience in having the weight lifted will become a success to us with more experience of mediation. In other words we save ourselves from dwelling on things that hold us into a kind of hardness that will grow in us to experience future loss and anxiety.  Meditation is a kind of experience journey. When we meditate on Gods word our of memory then we get consumed with the effects of meditation. So we lose something and we gain something else. In meditation we go from being weighted down by our old self to experience freedom in the journey that comes upon us in our new self. Our natural reaction is a kind of self talk out of the circumstances of this life. The importance of the people, the kinds of experiences we have in the enjoyments of this life, and the hopes we have of success in this world. But in meditation we experience a break from these earthly longings so that we lose a sense of time. In meditation we go from what we once were in our old image to experiencing the freedom that we are in a real image of ourselves. Our world goes from a simple one dimensional structure to a complicated two dimensional structure. In this we experience a more slow reception of success. We look beyond the reactions in the physical and we see real reasons and connections that are fleeting. We begin to trust in long term success. In meditation we become consumed in the eternal ends of things.    Reply Quote Notify 1992  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: OF THE WORK OF THE HOLY GHOST IN OUR SALVATION... Thomas Goodwin on: November 08, 2011, 07:47:20 AM 5. The Holy Ghost anointed him with power to do all his miracles, and all the good he did; so in Acts x. 88, 'He was anointed with the Holy Ghost and with power: going about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil;' whom it is expressly said he cast out 'by the Spirit,' Mat. xii. 28. 6. When Christ was dead, who was it raised him up from the grave? Which work was so great a work, as God himself accounts it as a new begetting, or making him anew, and as it were a second conception of him, a new edition of his Son Christ: Acts xiii. 88, 'He raised up Jesus again; as it is written in the second Psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.' God rejoiceth, as having but then recovered and found his Son, that was as it were lost in the likeness of sinful flesh. Now, who was the immediate cause of this new advancement, whereby he was born into the other world? The Holy Ghost: Rom. viii. 11, 'But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies, by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.' God by his Spirit raiseth up both Christ and us. 7. When he ascended, who filled him with that glory? The Holy Ghost: Ps. xlv., he was 'anointed with the oil of gladness above bis fellows;' which oil, Acts x. 88, is said to be the Holy Ghost. 8. It was the Holy Ghost that solemnly anointed him as king in heaven: Acts ii. 88, 'Being at the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,' &c. Peter's inference from this is, ver. 86, 'Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.' 9. It was and is the Holy Ghost that proclaims him Christ in all men's hearts. He sets the crown upon him there also, as well as in heaven, in so much that no man could ever come to acknowledge him the Christ but from the Spirit: 1 Cor. xii. 8, 'No man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.' So as whatever right he had in his person, or by his Father's designation (of which in Acts ii. 86, Rom. xiv. 9), yet it is the Spirit that publicly proclaimed him such, brought him in all his subjects; or, to use Christ's own words, 'He it is that glorifies me, shewing it to them,' John xvi. 14. All this he hath done to and for Christ our head. Remove Reply Quote Notify 1993  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: It takes a general to defeat a prince. on: November 08, 2011, 07:41:50 AM I agree with Bplayer... God designs our relationships with the reality that we will be divided on the basis of our faith. Most of us do not consider this division in value of keeping us from falling. I think its because we do not want to be rejected. But if the other person does not order their thoughts to glorify God in reality it comes from this enmity that was put to the account of men. We must understand that God does not need to express His anger towards men by creating disaster for sin... but he just lets men go in their own independent direction. But if we conclude that men are at odds with God because of their own free will then it would seem to me that we would have an anger that is not correct toward them. This anger would not be righteous indignation but born out of our own logic that all men are free to go in the direction they want to and we are better because in our equilibrium freedom we chose God and they did not. But we as Calvinist see that only by Gods grace of foresight did we believe. lol. If there is any choice in this world its pre determined by God as a man cannot choose what God does not allow him to choose. If we say that God does not decree choices then we are giving men a wisdom to live by in which they determine who is accepted and who is to be rejected. We are in essence denying there is enmity in relationships. We are denying there is legitimate anger.We are changing the cause of things and denying that the legitimate reasons that God orders the destruction of things. This is why the gospel must determine the most personal realities that we experience. Otherwise we are thinking and feeling in an impersonal way.      Reply Quote Notify 1994  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Psalms study... on: November 07, 2011, 08:07:49 PM A Psalm 39 ...for memory...relating to the true David. The Psalm is a continuation of the subject of this last group of four psalms. vs 2 ..9 ...linked  to 38 13 and vs 1 to 38 17 I said... i formed this resolution  38 16 take heed... observe...keep ... guard sin...to miss the mark ... of the feet ...to stumble...and fall..Hence morally..a coming short...blameworthiness...not necessarily wilful... and act of thought .. word... or deed... not a condition.... keep... same as take heed to... above... read... I did put .... a bridle... a muzzle the wicked... a lawless one. the restless activity of fallen nature...impious and ungodly dumb... as if tongue tied. good...perhaps an ellipsis... may be supplied .. from good.. words... ellipsis.. when a gap is purposely left in a sentence through omission of some word or words... LORD... Jehovah... frail...shortlived behold...asterismos....employing some word which directs special attention to some particular point or subject. age...lifetime... world-49 1 at his best state... though standing fast... or firmly established. altogether vanity ... only all vanity...omit all ...some codices... selah... connecting the vanity of 5 with the expansion and explanation of it in 6  This word may be from one of two roots.. from salah.. to praise or from salal- to lift up... There is no need to descend to the  guesses as to musical terms. ...will lead us to connect it to the subject matter ...not with the music... and with truth .. not with tunes. a question of fact as to its musical interaction with stanza. fact is it comes in the middle of the verse in 4 cases. ..both are two halves of one truth. ..it connects the ending of one strophe with the beginning of another and the ending of one Psalm with the next. every man...male or husband..ish... in contrast with a woman.A great man in contrast with an ordinary man. low are called children of Adam... high children of ish. walketh... walketh to and fro or habitually in vain shew... only in mere form. always rendered image except here and Dan 3 19 LORD...The primitive text read.. Jehovah... This is one of the 134 places where the Sopherim altered to Adonia transgression ... revolt .. rebellion ..sin against lawful authority....the action of love and mercy shown stands in contrast with the character of this sin. the foolish...a foolish one blow...pressure hand..anthropopatheia man... ish iniquity ... perverseness.. to be bent...or crooked...wrong..wrung out of course... moth...forming the fig.. paronomasia...connecting it with ish.. man with moth dsh. rhyming words.. repetition of words similar in sound but not necessarily in sense. selah.. connecting human vanity with an abiding reality and a divinely provided resource.. prayer and hope in Jehovah. recover strength.. be comforted ..heb brighten up This Psalm has so many layers in it that there is not enough understanding to plumb its depths. This is a Psalm of transparency that comes through created identity. His work in us is to produce life by His implanted word. The sensation of this is a continuous burning in our belly. And in this sense it is a secret life of God in the soul of man. We experience a world of wonder that cannot be stopped. Our experience produces the future reality. This is the image of Christ who causes us to be aligned in our souls. This is the most we can experience of strength and happiness in this life. But this Psalm seems to say that this man is suffering the effects of his sin. This is what is miss understood about what distinguishes between the path of the righteous man and the path of the wicked. In this psalm the experience of discipline actually creates in us the longing that cannot be extinguished. It brings us to call upon God in the most transparent way. Listen we are not asking for wealth or fame .. We are very aware of the power in us that would destroy us. We know our own tendency to stray and sin. My friends to not fear God is to be self destructive. Its to live in vanity that does not produce what it seems to promise. The problem with us is not out there but its rite in the thinking and feeling of our souls. What we think we are. Now then this is not a faint cry from a sickly saint but this is a description of a man whos eyes are fixed on Christ. These eyes are opened toward the spiritual effects of being transformed by the light of the glory of Christ so that he is not swallowed up by death but by mystery of all the experience that comes from the renewed view. This man is panting after God so that what danger he feels is his own lack of ability to experience the full effects of this longing. In some ways this is a man who is frustrated because he is tied down to the corrupted flesh and cannot taste these heavenly delights like he sees. This is the image of Christ. Its looking and then gazing and then focusing and being consumed. Out of the fire comes this desperate cry to be freed from vanity. This transparency is the closest we can get to heaven.     Remove Reply Quote Notify 1995  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Is this true? on: November 06, 2011, 10:00:30 AM The bible forbids us making graven images. I believe its speaking about what is mans view of God and what is Gods reveal truth about Himself. And its not just the proclamation of God but the truth itself is the means cause and effect of the image of God. There is no other way to approach God but on the basis of word and Spirit. All other ways are cursed. The ot is filled with prayers that address "the Lord. " In fact each person of the trinity is addressed in terms of their essence as  the Trinity and their Persons as having different responsibilities in the plan of redemption. Christ proceeds from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Christ. It seems to me that if we get the biblical doctrine of the Trinity wrong on its basic teaching then we will not understand the human personality. There is only one basis for freedom and its by the Spirit. People like to differentiate how these doctrines are seen in their application by their personal experience. I do not think that anyone can explain how the reality of the Trinity defines the real effects in this moment by moment dependence. We all are biased by our profession..lol. Not only are we biased because of our cultural norms but we do not have a full knowledge of God. In a way wisdom is not learned through our own experience but its only found in the knowledge of the truth that is outside of us and is revealed to us. Its beyond the reach of our personal wishes and goals. We could have such a high view of God that we create a god who is distant and holy so that He only responds to our best efforts. But that is creating a Lord that does not answer our needs but only in creating the desire to seek Him. This is why He cannot be Lord without being a friend. People in the ot respected Abram because it was said that he was a friend of God. lol. Same with Moses. But these men were not cut from a special clothe than all the other Israelites. They simply were called by God in a love covenant. This love is the basis for Gods coming to man. Its what the ot calls Gods unfailing love.. or Gods eternal love. This love is tightly connected to Gods presence. He passes by and speaks that He is loving faithful and forgiving. Without focusing on this covenant love man is simply lost in who he is. Gods eternal love is promised to us as the basis of our own confidence that we are His. If we go back to how we obtained our gift from God we go to the cause of His eternal and unfailing love. Where ever we are in this life.. no matter how we view our own troubles... no matter how much sin we have practiced ... it only matters in the community of men. It has no bearing on our identity in Christ. We only speak to God for our own purposes on the basis that He cannot fail because His love to us is unfailing. So we cannot even understand the nature of Christ as Lord and friend if we are not convinced that this love expressed to us through Christ is not related to who we are.