Paul is talking about a vision here. Here you
have the chief of the Pharisees... a man who believed in jewish culture
and law. Here is a man who studied the Torah and implemented it to the
smallest degree in his personal life. Not only did the apostle practice
the ceremonial laws but he was so zealous that he did not identify with
Gods nt people ... Paul did not follow the Abrahamic pattern that was
passed down from Davids generation. Paul was not part of the prophetic
generation that heard the message and believed it. Paul was setting
himself up as the man who would oppose the christian faith. It was
absolutely essential to follow the faith of the ot saints who followed
the first principles of the gospel in identifying with the church of God
throughout Isreals history. These saints were call the elect of God. In
not identifying with Gods elect Paul was working against the God of
Abraham! Paul failed to see that Gods message was a message of salvation
through faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone. Until Paul had the
Damascus experience he was going against the historical message passed
down from one generation to another. Paul was a man who was
dramatically converted. He not only relearned everything after his
conversion but he abandoned his former life as a law keeping Pharisee.
He considered it nothing but doo doo. He abandoned the law keeping in
the same way he abandoned his own life. He was more aware than any of
his counter parts of the person of Christ. Paul was a sold out saint. He
said for me to live is Christ. It was not his experience that he was
looking at. It was not the pain he was going through that he was looking
at. It was Christ and Him alone!! Paul went from the words on a page to
a personal relationship with a Person!
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace = Power to Do the Law
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on: November 20, 2010, 08:00:04 AM
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I see what you are saying there.
LOL--KK,
you are very difficult to talk to. You say one thing, someone
responds, then you kind of twist it around so it sounds right.
I mean this with lightheartedness & a tease-- talking to you, is kind of like trying to pin down Jell-O!
Your original post was that: Grace = the power to DO the Law.
As
you well know there is so much in the NT about NOT being under the law
or the power of the law, all who rely on observing the law are under a
curse & that it was powerless, & that it was put in charge for a
time to be a "tutor" to lead us to Christ.
So, I'm not really
sure what you are driving at? Christ was 'Promised' to Abraham. ONE on
ONE covenant between God & man. How do you believe the OT saint's
were saved? Having a priest offer up sacrifices for them? Their own
sacrifices? What about the time before the law was given in how to do
sacrifices properly? I'll wait to give my understanding.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death
through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the
trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that
came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16
Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The
judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift
followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now,
if you want to change this thread to "Grace = The Love of Christ that
compels us", I would understand you. Or if you wanted to draw on
Ephesians, that the Power that was exerted in raising Christ from the
dead, lives in us, I would understand you.
If there is no "Speed
Limit" posted, how would you know you are breaking the law (opposing
God's ways--since no one can counsel Him or know His mind)? See your
sin for what it really is, in opposition to God's ways. In need of His
salvation & forgiveness.
It's never been about us "doing",
it's about us "BEING" in Him (who Is Obedience) & having Life, and
having it eternally. Relationship, kinship--Son/Daughter...via BLOOD!
If we have His Spirit as our guarantee, proof, then what does our "obedience" prove? Or what is it for?
I've
come to the conclusion that Christ set us FREE, for Freedom's sake.
(Gal 5) and that everything is permissible, but not everything is
beneficial. Where there is no law, there is no transgression.
So
what is my obedience for? He doesn't need proof, (He provided Himself
(Spirit) for my proof. It's not for others sake either. I believe it's
because HE wants what is beneficial for me. His ways are always the
BEST & Perfect--expedient ways. "Life" by His Spirit. (which would =
having a relationship with Him in every moment of every day.)
Very
good post here G2... Yes this is exactly what i am having a problem
with Kk about. He says that God meets us half way when He commands us to
do what we are required to do. Then Kk will back off and say that its
all Gods power. Some how i am trying to get him to see the inconsistency
in Kks analogies in distinguishing Gods power from the exercise of His
will. I am say they are one and the same. He is saying that God will is
not ordering the event but its our will and His power. What i am saying
is that God exercises His power by His will. We believe in the
second use of the law too. But we say that it is all of us and all of
God ... or God works in us to will and do. My personal understanding of
the second use of the law is one that we focus on relationship as you
are saying G2. So I believe we fall rite into the same kind of
arminisnist tendencies when we present the christian as being compliant
in being able to obey the law with the equal rebel tendencies to disobey
the law... mixed with the need for God to teach us through applying
pain. ...as Kk suggest. In my understanding the pain we go
through in this life is not directly related to our sin as the number
one cause of our trials. Most christians believe that our presentation
of christian principles demands for us to be absolutely consistent in
our actions. So they see the second use of the law as a necessary two
line philosophy to balance out the free grace teaching. Even some of my
own Calvinist brothers think that freedom only goes so far and the
balancing as Gods mechanism is to bring the law to bear on the believer
through dark providence's and strong preaching on the law. But i believe
the second use of the law is to show the effects of those people who
are under a curse and for God to protect through His Divine
providence... His own. This is why i dont really think the christian
life is a plan of God but it is but it is believing what God determines
through the sin and pain for our benefit and for judgment on the cursed
sinners. The second use of the law is directed toward law breakers.. or
the non elect. This is why the principle of continuous disobedience
is a mark of an non elect. But we must see that we are not teaching
perfection when we say that a believer does not continuously disobey.
What we are saying is the believer continuously sins but its the
attitude about the sin that proves the genuineness of the faith. We are
saying that the question of sin is not one that centers on outward
performance but a person knowing the personal struggles with sin. This
is why you cant copy christian epistemology. It must start with an
understanding of the gospel and the rite knowledge of personal sin.
Because a christian sinner is no longer under the condemnation of the
law and yet he continues to sin while at the same time hating sin and
yet wanting the full rites as Gods sons. While at the same time knowing
that his sin is forgiven while the other guys sins are being judged and
the other guy is under the curse of the law... and at the same time
experiencing the adverse relationship as being accused of christian
arrogance. And yet because the christian belongs to Christ then the
special relationship is miss read by the non elect so that the christian
is accused of not understanding the nature of what the moral code of
conduct is. And yet there is a secret life of Christ with complete
freedom while at the same time the non elect continues in the bondage of
sin and the law etc. Then you have the self righteous who are drawing
the non elect to themselves while the elect who seem to be in worse
condition are bringing an unattractive message. So this is why the
second use of the law is mainly for our protection. We half to have a
sort of economy of value that draws us into believing in something that
is impossible for us to work out on our own. Mediate on the verses where
sin and cursing is equal.
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2958
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Forums / Politics Forum / Re: Our newly elected politicians
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on: November 18, 2010, 10:11:02 AM
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FLORIDA LEGISLATURE
8 Crist vetoes overridden
With the new House and Senate members and leaders sworn in Tuesday, lawmakers sent a strong message of GOP dominance.
BY MARY ELLEN KLAS, STEVE BOUSQUET AND MICHAEL C. BENDER
Herald/Times Tallahassee Bureau
TALLAHASSEE
-- The Florida Legislature christened a new era of conservative
government Tuesday, flexing its newfound muscle by overriding eight
vetoes in a half-day special session.
It also put Congress on
notice that it intends to reform the state's multibillion-dollar
Medicaid system, and berated members of the Florida Supreme Court for
overreaching their authority.
The historic override of Gov.
Charlie Crist's vetoes came after the House and Senate swore in 54 new
members and named Sen. Mike Haridopolos, R-Merritt Island, and Rep. Dean
Cannon, R-Winter Park, as their presiding officers for a two-year term.
The
veto overrides will shield homeowners, farmers, gas stations and small
businesses from higher costs by stripping away or delaying regulations
-- essential elements to job creation, legislators say. The message they
sent to Congress and the court was: Keep your distance.
In his
opening speech to members, Cannon criticized ``government run amok'' in
Washington and blasted Congress for ``taking over banks and financial
institutions . . . socializing medicine . . . and trampling the property
rights of citizens and the sovereignty of states.''
He
criticized the Florida Supreme Court for striking three constitutional
amendments crafted by the Legislature from the November ballot, saying
the work of lawmakers was ``demolished by five unelected justices on the
Supreme Court.''
Cannon, a lawyer who personally defended the
Legislature's substitute amendment for two redistricting referendums
backed by Democrats, called the court decisions to strike down the
proposals and congressional actions ``just a few examples of threats to
freedom,'' but added ``there are many others.''
Haridopolos, a
college professor, used his opening remarks to set the tone for what he
has pledged will be the most conservative Senate in more than 100 years.
`TWO OPTIONS'
``We're
facing a $2.5 billion shortfall,'' Haridopolos said after being sworn
in. ``We have two options: raise taxes or spend less . . . We will do
more with less, we will tighten our belt and we will not raise taxes a
single dime.''
While pledging to give all bills a thorough
hearing in at least three committees, Haridopolos warned: ``If your
piece of legislation raises a tax, makes it easier to file a lawsuit
against a fellow Floridian or increases red tape, then I don't like your
chances.''
Legislators spent the afternoon winding their way
through seven bills and a budget item vetoed by Crist earlier this year.
With near-unanimous votes in both chambers, they conducted the first
overrides of a governor's veto since 1998, when lawmakers restored two
bills rejected by then-Gov. Lawton Chiles.
They approved bills
that authorized $31 million in federal stimulus money to provide rebates
to an estimated 13,000 people who bought high-efficiency
air-conditioning and heating systems or solar-energy systems. They
delayed implementation of a new law that requires septic tanks to pass
an inspection every five years. And they enacted a new requirement that
regulations costing businesses $200,000 per year be ratified by the
Legislature.
Lawmakers also passed bills that would loosen rules
for cleaning up petroleum sites, repeal a requirement that homeowners in
coastal counties provide a ``windstorm mitigation rating'' to potential
buyers, and allow farmers who want to sell their land to transfer their
agricultural tax credits to the buyer
With the new House and Senate members and leaders sworn in Tuesday, lawmakers sent a strong message of GOP dominance.
BY MARY ELLEN KLAS, STEVE BOUSQUET AND MICHAEL C. BENDER
Herald/Times Tallahassee Bureau
« Previous |Page 2 of 2
MEDICAID REFORM
Lawmakers
sent Congress a nonbinding statement of their intent to pass a Medicaid
reform bill in the spring. The measure states that they intend to
expand on a Jeb Bush pilot program and steer most Medicaid patients into
managed-care plans.
Sen. Mike Fasano, a New Port Richey
Republican who voted against the resolution, said that managed care
essentially means HMOs, and warned: ``If you think you got a few phone
calls last year, put people in an HMO and the phones will be ringing off
the hook.''
The overwhelming majorities by which the Republicans
passed the measures underscored the weak position Democrats find
themselves in. Because their numbers are so small, Democrats cannot stop
or even slow down Republicans unless maverick Republicans join them.
That
happened once in the Senate on Tuesday, when three Republicans voted to
oppose the new hurdles for regulations. But only four Florida Democrats
joined them, and the measure passed 32-7, a signal to Republicans
leaders that most Democrats were eager to please as they await
assignments, offices, parking spaces and committees.
``We're not
going to throw rocks at people who can throw boulders at us. That
doesn't make any sense,'' said Rep. Joe Gibbons, D-Hallandale Beach.
MINORITY LEADERS
Democrats
installed a pair of South Florida lawmakers as minority leaders: Sen.
Nan Rich of Weston and Rep. Ron Saunders of Key West, who said Democrats
would play a watchdog role to make sure Gov.-elect Rick Scott and the
GOP-controlled Legislature follow through on their promises to create
jobs and revive the economy.
Some Democrats were disturbed by
Cannon's sharp criticism of the Florida Supreme Court in his opening-day
speech, which he delivered with Chief Justice Charlie Canady -- a
former legislator -- seated 50 feet away.
``The chief justice is
sitting there in the front row and you're taking a shot at him right off
the bat,'' said Rep. Rick Kriseman, D-St. Petersburg.
Cannon
said his pointed speech was meant to open a ``dialogue about how we can
support them in fulfilling their role and they can support us in
fulfilling our role.''
But the high court's spokesman Craig
Waters raised questions as to how far the justices would be willing to
go to ``dialogue'' with Cannon.
``The word `dialogue' is very
open-ended, and can include meanings that would violate the Code of
Judicial Conduct,'' Waters said. Because justices are prohibited from
discussing any issues that could come before the court, `` `dialogue' is
trumped by ethical considerations,'' he said.
Herald/Times staff
writers Lee Logan and Janet Zink contributed to this report. Mary Ellen
Klas can be reached at meklas@MiamiHerald .com.
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2959
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace = Power to Do the Law
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on: November 18, 2010, 10:04:58 AM
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mbG:
"The righteousness of Christ is His righteousness alone. His
righteousness is credited to our account. But it is not intrinsically
our righteousness."
K_k: Only Christ is truly righteous. We become more righteous as He imputes/imparts His Life in/through us.
KK--One question for right now. 1. Can you be more righteous in the future than you are right now, here today, In Christ Jesus?
Good
question Gouda... its dangerous to believe what Kk is teaching. First
because Kk thinks that Christ righteousness is infused a little bit at a
time. Or as Kk confuses us all ... Kk describes what ever property we
are talking about... its under the broad scheme of Kks democratic
god...which is share forgiveness .. he says its Christ forgiveness but
we must ask first... his belief is a half way meeting.. but he doesnt
admit its what he is saying. So is Kks grace.. its shared favor as long
as we are responding to Gods big thumb. Now Kks righteousness is doled
out as we submit to Christ. The Catholics believe in infused
righteousness but Kk has his own theory... he will disagree with the
Catholics but then he describes equal righteousness but says we cant
take credit for it. So his method is not even arguable since he is
always contradicting himself but swears its neither armininism or
calvinsim.. its Kk the contradiction... hehe But we believe
that its not intrinsically our righteousness but its Christ declaration
that we are righteous once and for all in the courts of heaven. You are
correct Gouda that it cant be further improved upon after we have the
initial declaration because Christ has already earned the acceptance. We
are in Christ who is made us acceptable before God. We are still wicked
and totally depraved in our own corruption. We are always going astray.
Not by the works of righteousness which we have done but according to
His great mercy has He saved us. We are completely acceptable in the
court of heaven .. once for all time. For the sake of not
offending anyone I will not give specific times or names but let me say
that in the past i ... a long time ago .. i believed like Kk... i
believed everything thing was divided between me and God. I believed
that God was keeping me in line with all of the pain and sorrow .. and i
had my counselors... and my close friends... the one person who i
confided in.. and i lived with people who believed the ... if you do
your part God will do His theology. I was single and was about as close
to being in the in group of all of that ....but i learned my lessons
very early on. So when i hear stuff about like what Kk is saying not
only does the theory come back to my mind but it was the society in
which i lived the life that comes back in that i know in practice how
foolish it is. This is all very childish to me... being that i was able
to see this kind of society in flesh and blood and be in it for so long
before i became a calvinist. I know what it is to live with the so
called law on the heart stuff with the law of love encouragement. There
is one person who knows everything about me so if that is the standard
then i probably am farther along than most people in that religious
environment. Ive been the the best counseling that one could find in
this life. Ive studied all of the techniques. I know first hand what it
is to live in a Freudian environment. I am probably more familiar with
the intellectual and emotional interaction with all of these
philosophies in a very deep intellectual experience. All of this is a
very long time ago. Our society is not longer emotionally connected to
these philosophies but we are under the domination of yrs of this anti
God practice ... we are slaves to the system that has been put in place
in all of the different societies family... job... and church. We are a
culture of relational black mail. Every man born on this earth is a
religious fanatic. Man has always worshiped a god. This is a time where
we believe everything as long as we can move up the scale of success.
Religion is egalitarian as an american system.
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2960
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins
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on: November 16, 2010, 03:21:51 PM
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mbG: "First of all God does not lead us to the end of ourselves. "
K_k:
Perhaps you have not been led to the end of yourself, but i have. And
i get led there often, since i have a tendency to resurrect the old
self to make sure he/it should stay dead. Sorry that doesn't fit your
theology, but it sure seems to be my experience.
mbG: "Our sorrows are like arrows that pierce our hearts. These things are not Gods ways of bringing us closer to Him."
K_k:
Perhaps they don't have that effect on you, but they sure do to me.
After wallowing in sorrow for awhile, for whatever cause, i turn to Him
where i should have been in the first place.
mbG: "God brings
about sin in us by our lack of ability to overcome sin. God does not
need to twist our arm... make us aware of our sin.. make us learn from
our pain that we get from sin... or create fear by warning us of the
consequences from our sin."
K_k: I wouldn't accuse God of
"bringing about" my sin. He just empowered me and gave me abilities
which i have misused. And He definitely does teach me the painful
consequences of sin, thank God. And He definitely has warned us about
those consequences in His Word.
mbG: "Justification does not set us up with a new power to obey the law."
K_k: No, it is His Life in us that gives us new power to obey His Laws of love.
mbG:
"This is why we can stumble and yet enjoy greater power than when we
obeyed from the heart. We can have a long struggle with sin and yet have
more power available to us than when we served God without falling into
the sin that so easily besets."
K_k: We can stumble and still
know that the power to obey His righteous instructions is still with us,
since He never leaves or forsakes those who are His. We have the same
power available to us whether we sin or don't sin -- His power. Joy
springs from heart-felt obedience.
mbG: "We add our own sorrows through legalistic man made rules!! "
K_k:
And we experience peaceful joy, and joyful peace, through Him writing
His Law on our hearts, minds and souls. The Law-giver is not separate
from His Law, He Himself is its essence.
The reactions
we have in this life are mostly due to our own inner voices of guilt ..
shame.. and sorrow. Because we have been taught that sin is capable of
bringing the saint under its domination so that we cannot recover to be
the same person as we had been before we did the act. We look at out
word sins and temporary effects. Because all mankind can profit from in a
short term way in gaining control over outward sins. But the bible
talks about sins that are not visible that we carry around and there is
nothing we can do about the effects that come into our lives. You see
sin is an incurable disease. Every day we wake up everyone in our world
is suffering the loss of good cells and having the life flow cutting
them off from their enjoyments. Sin ends in death and this is the
predominate experience of every person who is in the family of Adam. The
truth is that most of us trade the short term view of sin so that we do
not need to deal with its long term effects in us. But the bible is not
a book of the exploits of men who gain some temporary enjoyment in
quitting some kind of outward sin. The bible tells us what the end of
our lives on this earth will be. The bible tells us this because this is
what God has determined for us before the foundation of the world. You
see things present and physical.. but God sees the end from the
beginning. God tells us that in the end of our lives He will take
all of our friends from us and our loved ones and leave us with nothing
but "God and I". You may have sorrows but sin will bring the punishment
that God intended without our help. In this situation we will look back
and think of all of the struggles we had on this earth because God
planned it that way. It is called the pain of death before we die. God
is not joking around with this reactionary self fulfillment that men
practice in comparing themselves with each other. And having pride in a
short term victory over some sin. God is going to bring about the
destruction of the body for the purpose of the penalty for Adams sin. So
if you are thinking about the suppose power that you have over some
shorterm effects of sin... start to envision what loneliness will be at
the end of your life when all the things you worked for will come to
nothing in this life. Then you may begin to think like an adult.
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2963
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Is war with sin a waste of time?
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on: November 14, 2010, 06:26:14 PM
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Jim,
I did not even read what he had written. I think he's a creep and maybe he should get saved or something.
Nancy
PS:
I'm a little bit afraid because satan is indeed "rolfa" and this guy
doesn't know it or doesn't care and i'm sort of sorry for putting my
life out there in the presence of people such as he. Someone should
pray for him or something. This is not funny.
Nancygirl...
heres my one rule.. you can write anything you want and it is not any
ones business to condemn it if you are genuinely trying to present
something you believe. So you are free to disagree with me but to
condemn what i am saying or attributing it to the devil... thats not
fair. Kk and i have disagreed about the doctrines of grace but we dont
call each other unacceptable christians. As you can see i like Kk . We
can disagree but i respect his rite to state his beliefs. Nancy... you
are not being fair to me.
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2964
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: what is sin?
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on: November 14, 2010, 12:28:00 PM
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Dear "Kings Kid"
The
Lord bless you and do say a prayer for me because I think the guy who
calls himself MyBigGod is a creep and if I said anything else I'de be
lying. I keep looking for the good in him and I find none.
Nancygirl...
can you communicate in such a way that we can have a conversation...
did i write something that upset you? I only come here to discuss
nicely. I dont write things to woman that are harsh. Kk doesnt think i
am mean.... i really dont understand since this is the first time you
have said anything to me.
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2968
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: When does grace end and consequences begin?
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on: November 14, 2010, 10:51:21 AM
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mbG:
"But the apostles must have been negligent when they shook the dust
from their feet and went to another situation. Tell the gospel ... move
on... the apostles principles."
K_k: The apostles were following
specific instructions from the Lord. They weren't being negligent.
If, on the other hand, an apostle were told to stay with one person
until they received Christ, no matter how long, then they would be
negligent if they moved on after a single presentation of the Gospel.
The point is, what are the Spirit's instructions in each specific case.
We can't make iron-clad rules out of every instruction given to
the disciples, though some folks try to do so. For example, few
Believers do this: "He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to
heal the sick. And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey,
neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics
apiece. Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart.""
Luke 9:2-4
Not saying we shouldn't ever follow these
instructions, just that we are not commanded to always do the same
thing. We need to seek God's guidance in every case, and in some cases
it might be to walk with a friend through the consequences they need to
face.
I am glad that you agree with me about application
then Kk. So we should have a lot of room when we apply the scripture
because the bible says to have a lot of counselors that are human beings
who may oppose each other in application. The truth is not clear in
application because we never have all the facts.
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2969
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Is war with sin a waste of time?
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on: November 14, 2010, 10:23:58 AM
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You talk too much to be truthful.
"Jesus wept"..... hehe.. just kidding Ng.... No
seriously .... ive been here along with most of the others at the
bottom of the page... i think TB and i ..... are pretty much in
agreement with the doctrines of grace... billbennet is also one i like
to read here... kk is new and he allows me to explore my own beliefs by
challenging me with the opposing view. I do not doubt his sincerity at
this point. I dont write to please any body or i would have already
been gone from KLF.... this is not personal to me as a relationship i
have with real people. But i show up here almost every day and have a
lot to say because i go through a mind blowing experience in meditation
and i need an outlet. I dont know who reads my post... most probably
skim through them but it helps me get stuff off of my chest... but if i
can help one person it would be worth the tedious effort.....i have not
found a truly Socratic kind of situation where i feel comfortable in
real life.... i believe socratic learning is the best form. Thanx for at
the least opposing me...  Rite
now i am memorizing the book of Revelation.. stick around i wont
disappoint you. Its starting to filter down into an emotionally charged
experience.
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2970
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: what is sin?
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on: November 14, 2010, 10:16:33 AM
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Interesting idea. Think i'll give it a try. Well, for a while, anyway...  Actually
that little guy with the big God and i are more fond of each other than
might appear to the casual reader. And we have the same goal, to
glorify the All-Glorious One, so we're on the same team, though it might
appear we are mortal enemies. Right, mbG? 
Kk...
i have a lot of respect for you...and i know your faith is strong...
even tho we disagree God has put us in each others path for
encouragement and helping each other along the way. this is a good man
here.
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