2971	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Is war with sin a waste of time?	on: November 13, 2010, 10:58:32 AM
Our war with sin is the reality of the two world views we find in our experiencing two opposing forces in this world. Because sin is not just an act but its system of the world that puts men in bondage to one another as a mark of evil. We are born into adversity. We are born in sin. The truth is that if we just followed what everyone else was doing we would be under the domination of the course of this world. Every relationship in this world is defined by sin. This is how men find a sense of acceptance in how they share in the common evil. The normal course that people take in this world is viewed by people who are what they think. There is no special sin. Every one reacts a certain way to others and the events of this world according to their own view of themselves. The truth is that very few people go against the majority. And if they oppose the majority it usually is built on a reaction in a self defensive way rather than for the glory of God. What makes all men succumb to a standard that has been established as a cultural norm? The reason that men act according to the course of this world is because they are in bondage to sin. They do not have the ability to avoid reacting a certain way because they only see the benefits of establishing themselves as the person who leads. The truth is that men hide their natural way of dealing with the problems of this world so they can establish their self fulfilled goodness. There is a desperate attempt by man to suppress his own hatred toward God. The natural man has no ability to access a dimension in which he is able to judge the spiritual detail of life... so that he would know what true transparency is. The natural man is transparent in how he feels about himself in his own defined goodness. He understands the physical universe... his wealth.. looks... and his abilities but he has no awareness of the glory and goodness of God. So he measures himself by the physical standards in light of his position in this world. This is why sin is what defines the experience of opposition that a man cannot avoid.
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2972  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: November 11, 2010, 03:17:30 PM Legalism: Any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God "After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Gal.3:3. A Definition of Legalism 1. Using the Mosaic covenant as though it is the covenant between you and God. 2. Attempting to be justified by one's own works. 3. Attempting to be sanctified by one's own works 4. Suggesting that our worth or worthlessness, our self-esteem and self-satisfaction or lack thereof, rest on our own works. 5. Any attempt to please God judicially, or any supposition that our sin as believers has resulted in his judicial displeasure. [Any post-salvation attempt to maintain our judicial standing before God through good works, covenant faithfulness, merit etc..] 6. Teaching that we conform ourselves to our judicial standing in Christ (righteous and perfect) by our own works. 7. Attempting to attain godliness by a systematic change of behavior 8. Obedience that does not spring from a renewed heart 1. As of an unbeliever who has no renewed heart 2. As of a believer who has a renewed heart but whose righteous behavior does not spring therefrom. 9. Any supposition that externally righteous acts have any value on their own, even as conduct that prepares the way for either 1. A renewed heart (preparationism as regards justification), 2. The softening or further renewing of an already renewed heart (preparationism as regards sanctification. Note Romans 12:2-Transformation occurs through the renewing of the mind), or 3. Any other work of the Spirit. 10. Suggesting that faith is irrelevant in the accomplishment of some (or all) good works. 11. Trying to be justified by works that are created and inspired by the Holy Spirit. 12. Attempting to gain assurance of salvation solely or primarily on the basis of the sign of outward works - Bill Baldwin Remove Reply Quote Notify

2973  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins on: November 11, 2010, 02:46:12 PM Quote from: toadbat on November 11, 2010, 02:22:54 PM Quote from: mybigGod on November 09, 2010, 08:03:20 AM There are weaknesses and sorrows in people that can paralyze them... we need more real preaching like this as the basic reordering of christian standards of thinking. http://www.oneplace.com/player/living-grace/the-healing-of-the-man-at-the-gate-beautiful-part-2-141416.html Thanks Mbg, as always, Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones cuts straight to the heart of the matter. My problem is, is that ususally I need to be brought to a place of either emptiness or desperation before I (like the cripple in the story) will "look on Him." I've found that it isn't something that happens when I just up and decide to do it from a sheer act of will; There has to be an externally prompted force/situation behind it. Yes i agree TB...MLJ believed ...not every crisis issue was faith related. And here in this sermon he did not point that out because i believe he gave extra caution when he was in the pulpit to sticking to scripture and the focus on God centered preaching. But MLJ  was a very good one on one counselor. If you read his bio... he was a counselor that dealt with every situation and person differently and had a very supernatural gift to impart wisdom. Not the charismatic kind but a very good insight into people. He would have  a lot of people come after the service to talk with him in his private office. He did a series of sermons that is in a book called Spiritual Depression of which i have read 2 or 3 times. But i believe he is rite by saying that the church is not an institution of behavioral modification but it is taking captive captivity. Or it is releasing the prisoners of some kind of malady. I mean a weakness that we seem to always be depressed about in the clinical kind.  But i distinguish between the faith of people. Not all people have the same quality of faith. Not all people have the same mental capacities. Some people are super sensitive and require a lot of encouragement and not much exhortation. I dont find it easy to force myself to trust in something that scripture says i should relieve my sinning or my anxiety. Although my anxiety level has gone down because of the Psalms... i find it easier to set a time where i can expel the temporary trouble and seek to walk over the trouble. But not always. I am like you.. i need the experience of high joy or sorrow to focus on Him. And then i become aware of the supernatural side. Hope this helps. MLJ believed there were faith crisis that was handled by christian truth and then there were psychological crisis that needed personal attention to medication... counseling etc. He was a medical doctor before God called him to be a doctor of the soul. Reply Quote Notify

2974  Forums / Main Forum / Re: what is sin? on: November 11, 2010, 02:25:32 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on November 11, 2010, 12:32:17 PM That was almost comprehensible, mbG.  I pray for greater understanding for us both.  Maybe i know a little bit more than you... you need to start listening to me when i get down to your level and you can understand what i am saying. I would only say this to you Kk... Reply Quote Notify

2975  Forums / Main Forum / Re: When does grace end and consequences begin? on: November 11, 2010, 12:33:38 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on November 11, 2010, 12:26:45 PM mbG:  "The bible focuses on the main things as a way of life and the applications are secondary. The bible is the only authority for how to live life. It is a book about redemption not a manual." K_k:  The Bible, as God's Word, has both general principles and practical examples.  And the Spirit is given to enlighten and empower us as to how to apply both to our lives, in specific instances.  My point was to depend upon the guidance of the Spirit, not on general man-made rules not found in Scripture, like "never turn in a friend for doing wrong".  It may be that helping a friend face consequences for their actions, while supporting them throughout the process, will be the thing that friend will be eternally grateful for. I am only saying this because you dont acknowledge the full salvation message... i mean... you are in error not unsaved. But the apostles must have been negligent when they shook the dust from their feet and went to another situation. Tell the gospel ... move on... the apostles principles. Reply Quote Notify

2976  Forums / Main Forum / Re: When does grace end and consequences begin? on: November 11, 2010, 12:19:24 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on November 11, 2010, 12:09:27 PM mbG: "Kk.. this is kk s  subtle way of saying that God told Kk that you should turn him in or else you are not listening to them.  rolleyes K_k:  No, this is my way of saying follow the Spirit's instructions, not some rule made by mankind about not interfering with God's work.  When we make up rules of involvement or non-involvement in peoples' lives that are not given to us in Scripture we often either override God's desire to use us or to teach us patience.  I dont want to get political here. But the bible has rules and from these we make many applications. Each situation has a different application.The a like proverbs are applied differently in the same looking situations. The bible focuses on the main things as a way of life and the applications are secondary. The bible is the only authority for how to live life. It is a book about redemption not a manual. Reply Quote Notify

2977  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Dualism of American Two Line Theology on: November 11, 2010, 12:00:45 PM Dualistic philosophy is a denial of reality. It starts from believing that faith is the cause of salvation. Faith is a quality that is found in man therefore it depends upon something in man to gain salvation. If man has something good in himself in order to gain access into salvation then man has a required goodness to keep his salvation. Because meta physical reality and philosophy are only true in focusing on the causes of real identification.  On the other side of this teaching is that philosophy will bring the truth out in focusing on the outward behavior of salvation. In other words dont burn the books there is some good in them. Book burning is only qualified in historical significance as a rite method when there is victory in war. It was OT practice to destroy everything in battle as that by which Israel would prosper. The apostle did this at Ephesus but it is not a requirement of the NT to deal with national crisis and the churchs mandate to spread the gospel. The point is that God will hold men accountable for their words. Whether in this world through His special means.. wartime destruction..or in the final judgment. All teaching is a world view and involves all of life. Teaching and application start from causes as the formation of reality. The bible puts a premium on teaching the mind. Every cause in application is the teaching itself. Reality is who we think we are by the understanding we have of the teaching. We apply the truth by how we view ourselves. Life is having the mind transformed by being reminded of the teaching and not by any other means. This is the system that is in place in building nations... and changing democratic societies. It is changing the world through ideas.  Remove Reply Quote Notify

2978  Forums / Main Forum / Re: what is sin? on: November 11, 2010, 10:59:54 AM Q. 14. What is sin? A. Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God. Sin is both doing something that is against Gods authority and not doing all that is required.  My own explanation of this is sin is something we do that is not have heroic motivations involved. This distinguishes Christ motivation for obey the law completely and our required motivation. Christ obeyed the law to please the Father because Christ is the only one who deserves the glory for being good. But we sin in how we treat Christ rather than pointing to the sin itself. Example is Peter... he lied to the soldiers about knowing Christ but the sin was magnified because it is a denial of Christ. So that sin as it is relational is mans chief denial of reality. As man is with Christ and other men. There is other places in scripture where lies were not heroic sins. This is why there is no time where we do not sin in the heroic action. Because the motives are not from pure love. This is why sin is an act of a meta physical weakness to have a complete understanding of the nature of the detestable corruption. Sin is a lack of praise that comes from the lips of man to give Christ the glory that He deserves. Mans mouth determines the direction of His life because the lips show the meta physical reality of word and Spirit. Man murders... slanders... creates personal troubles by the picture he paints of his neighbor. The psalmist prays that God would cut off a man who owns his own lips... or its a man who speaks thoughts that do not come from God.. that is a  man who does not know God. Sin is the activity of a world of words as the cause of all of the troubles in this world. No harm could befall a righteous man if words were not spoken about him in communications only God sees. So that sin is Gods view of what sin is. Reply Quote Notify

2979  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins on: November 11, 2010, 09:43:43 AM The law is written on our hearts because it shows us when we violate it. But the law ... or the law that works with our conscience is not the principle part of change. It just shows that there is an alive experience going on in us. But the law is not a school master. The law is alive but it produces death in us. The process of death is a corrupted process. Kk says that death is a non conscious state only. But death is corruption that leads to physical and spiritual death. The law demands only one thing. It is compliance. The law has no positive power to produce that compliance. The law written on the heart of a corrupted man is a curse of death. Because every time we break the law we agree with God that we deserve death. We agree with God that we deserve all of the curses that come with breaking the ordinance. If we do not see this then we are going to be in a state of hostility that we cannot understand. This is the process of the school master being alive. If we live by the law we will die by the law. That is a curse. Because every person who is born in this world knows that the law is alive in the person. So they cannot deal with the activity of the law going on in themselves. So they begin to find comfort in excusing themselves and at the same time accusing others and God.  This is a curse too because this is what brings people many swords and sorrows. This is the process of suicide.  The only relief from this alive process is through Christ. We must have the law giver and the law keeper living in us who is alive. Christ came to free us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. Salvation is in Christ alone! So now we look at Christ and we are free from the law. Now we no longer have a school master but we have one who obeyed the law perfectly and without sin. Now the curse of the law has been lifted and even tho we actively desire the curses of the law to be carried out as the true nature of holistic understand.. yet it passes over our house. We have the blood on our door post. One day in the future we will be in heaven and there will be no more curses.. no more sin. This is what the whole creation is desiring. That God will bring those under the curses of the law to swift punishment so the we can all be united in heaven to worship God forever more. There will be angels surrounding the throne and the living creatures and the elders ... these angels cannot be numbered. So they will be encircled around the throne in a space that cannot be fathomed singing to our Father. Just think about that one.   Reply Quote Notify

2980  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins on: November 11, 2010, 09:12:27 AM Gods path of communication is not to take away our pleasure. Everything created by God is good for our use. Even our own meta physical propensities as weak human beings. Man was originally created as righteous and good but sin brought men into blindness and inability. But salvation is the restoration of the original man to his determined end... which is a goodness that is has no mixture of sin. The believer will rule on the earth in the new order and he will be without sin and weakness. But God has given us a new will on this side of heaven. We enjoy eternal pleasures forever more from our new birth. Our new desires are mixed with old corruption. But God treats us as being represented by the Power and ability of Christ. Power and ability are terms that create future reality in our lives that will ultimately end in things too wonderful for us. This new walk is by family connections. We have a new name. Whatever we desire is what He desires since He knows our weaknesses and He understands that we are dust. As a father has compassion on his children so that Lord has compassion His children.  He is gentle enough to determine the smallest change because of our corruption. Here is the process.. we focus... we are reminded.. then we see Christ... when we see Christ we are made like Christ. We think... desire... and will like Christ. Not equal but in the ability of Christ. Not our own ability since we cannot do one good thing without Christ. What makes us responsible is our own desire. What makes us free is we could not do the good by our own desire. We conclude that freedom to do good is out of a sense of our own inability. So we say that it was not by our strength. He caused us to obey.  When we get to heaven we will not be able to present our own goodness. Everything that we did on the earth was mixed with corruption. We are totally depraved... being corrupted  in every area of our being. What will make us acceptable to God? It will be Christ righteous declaration of our innocence because He took our place and lived a righteous life. We will only be accepted because He did what was necessary to make us acceptable to our Father. This is eternal life that we live in that is too wonderful for us to imagine. Salvation is a path way for Christ sheep that is too wonderful for them to imagine. It starts for us when we are saved. We get what we desire because God determines our acceptability... but the wicked will not get what they desire. They will get the chaff. The pathway of destruction.    Reply Quote Notify

2981  Forums / Theology Forum / The Dualism of American Two Line Theology on: November 09, 2010, 02:24:32 PM The god of America is a god that has two sides in his purposes to balance out the personal response of faith and the actions that show a person is able to prosper in the religious market. These ideas in the dualistic philosophy are to create a religious fervor to hold onto the language of market religious forces through redefining these biblical terms. The devils workshop is always to build a society in which there are general truths that we all share in common and our religious purposes are directed to find common ground in the universal Fatherhood of God. On the one hand we incorporate the religious personality in specifically defined behaviors from a rigid system of checks and balances... and on the other hand we remove the stigma of a God that is defined in detailed and specific terms. American religion put in its biblical context is a divided psychology of impersonal contradictions. I will show that the second use of the law is drawn out of a detailed understanding of how we are required to hold to a specific way of thinking that brings reality into two clearly defined world views. This present philosophy of two line is full of contradictions.   Reply Quote Notify

2982  Forums / Main Forum / Re: When does grace end and consequences begin? on: November 09, 2010, 01:03:08 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on November 09, 2010, 12:42:33 PM crowwoman:  "Gman, even if you had turned them over to the law before things got so bad, you have no guarantee that the law would have solved their problems.  Don't take on the work that belongs to God alone." K_k:  And if you do nothing when a person is self-destructing, there is no guarantee that someone else will help them.  But we need His guidance to tell the two situations apart.  Don't neglect to take on the work that God alone can direct us to do. Kk.. this is kk s  subtle way of saying that God told Kk that you should turn him in or else you are not listening to them.  Reply Quote Notify

2983  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins on: November 09, 2010, 08:03:20 AM There are weaknesses and sorrows in people that can paralyze them... we need more real preaching like this as the basic reordering of christian standards of thinking.  http://www.oneplace.com/player/living-grace/the-healing-of-the-man-at-the-gate-beautiful-part-2-141416.html Reply Quote Notify

2984  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does sinning break fellowship with Jesus? on: November 07, 2010, 06:14:56 PM We do not examine ourselves every day. That would be a real burden. But we must have a vision of the other that dominates our disposition. A spiritual illumination that breaks in upon us that takes our eyes off of ourselves and the world. We were made by God to glorify Him and enjoy Him forever. Not to repent to God and deny self. That is one part of the equation. But that does not dominate our thinking. If it does then we need to make an effort to take the focus off of our own sins... failures... and sorrows and put them on Christ. At some point we must find enjoyment out of a sense of our own unworthiness. We must have a pound of this great vision of God... and an ounce of our own unworthiness. When someone is living in the grace of Christ they are focused on the eternal attributes of God. The hole group of these attributes are drawn from the eternal love and kindness of God who is holy ... or other. This is the kindness of our Father. God is most beautiful in His dwelling. He dwells in beauty. He appears like a red and purple glow. He has a green rainbow encircling His throne and there are these heavenly beings who are so focused on the beauty and glory of God that they respond .. nite and day ... falling down before Him and singing praises to Him. There is a beautiful sea of glass before the throne and it magnify s the multi colored glow that comes from His throne. This is so attractive that these beings praise God by saying holy holy holy is the lord God almighty .... who is and was and is to come! Everything is circular because there is no part of the eternal nature of God that does not capture every space in the universe as He shines out from His throne. Have we had the vision of God break into our minds and fill us with the glory of Christ? This is what we dwell on... not our sins.    Reply Quote Notify

2985	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does sinning break fellowship with Jesus?	on: November 07, 2010, 05:46:49 PM
Heres what the bible says... we do not know the entire truth about ourselves. If we saw ourselves before God as we really were then we would be destroyed. You say.. thats making excuses... but if we have the liberty to shield ourselves at any point from the absolute truth about ourselves then we have the liberty to judge others based upon our lack of pure equity. If we are totally corrupted then there is no time where we are not bias. So we are not self repenters. But we repent in light of our inability to judge ourselves without sin. Unless we prove to be naive in our subjective imagination of real objectivity. But the bible says that we always excuse ourselves and accuse others. This is the real problem. Its creating goodness by our ability to fudge what we judge to be objective truth. So we let Christ life in us be our true acceptance.   We can use self repentance as the means to put the flesh to death. But the bible says that there is only one means to put the flesh to death... that is through the Spirit. And if any one does not have the Spirit of Christ then he does not belong to Christ. Being transformed by the renewing of our minds is to repent as a believer. Or its having the word of Christ dwell in your richly. Because repentance is a change of mind. We are unable to effect our own willing good. We must be controlled by the mind of Christ. Or we must be made able by the Spirit alone. The bible says that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us... if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.  We avoid both extremes. We cannot say that our confession earns our forgiveness. Nor can we say our confessing makes us sinless.  We must conclude that God alone determines our being acceptable in the doctrine of Justification by faith. So that repentance is having an understanding of our own weaknesses along with a deep understanding of the nature of sin. Repentance is a way of thinking or its dwelling in the goodness and grace of God because we are unable. Its not necessarily confession of sin. That can be legalistic.        2987  Forums / Main Forum / Re: When does grace end and consequences begin? on: November 07, 2010, 12:29:18 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on November 06, 2010, 02:10:07 PM jim:  "grace does not = license to sin all you like and be presumptuous or even contemptuous of God's grace.  Nor does grace = indulging people or being passive with those engaged in sinful/harmful practices." K_k:  Yes.  Where there is no repentance there is no reception of grace.  But if a person is trying to change, has a heart turning toward God, then grace abounds.  Jesus spoke boldly in confrontation with the pharisees and sadducees.  The grace they needed was to humble themselves before their Maker, but they refused to recognize Him. If someone is using drugs habitually, they usually need to face consequences before they can turn away from them toward God, which is repentance.  As long as chronic drug use seems enjoyable and free of harmful consequences (which is an illusion of course), then the addict is doomed to deterioration. Sometimes grace is the ability to firmly confront a friend who is using, and letting them know that you love them, and will stand by them all they way when they want help to get off the drugs, but that you don't want to participate in their self-destruction -- come see my as soon as you want help, but in the meantime we'll pray for you, especially that you find Christ Who will set you free. As Jim indicated, grace does not equal passive acceptance of self-dectructive sin.  That is a distortion which satan and crew have promoted well in our culture, since it paralyzes Believers away from acting in the best interests of addicted loved ones.  And their best interest is almost always to face the results of their behavior as soon as possible.  The longer we "cover" for a hurting friend, the longer and deeper the descent into misery. First repentance is one side of faith. Faith is a gift. So repentance cannot earn grace. But grace precedes repentance. Repentance is not an act of contrition. But repentance is simply turning to Christ. Grace is the ability that proceeds repenting and believing. Repentance is not sorrow. Repentance is not leaving a sin. Repentance is not confessing to one another.  Repentance is simply believing and trusting in Christ for everything. Repentance is not a one time act but it is a way of life.  Second the addiction to drugs is a physical addiction. After many tries to leave drugs through the process of drying the person out ..eventually the person will gain the strength to overcome the addiction. The spiritual part is just a confession away and the person is healed. The physical addiction should be dealt with and spiritual growth is necessary to no longer be defined by the addiction. There are some things we do over and over again that we enjoy. These are not addictions but enjoyments. So we dont want to go the other way and put someone under legalism.      Reply Quote Notify 2988  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 06, 2010, 10:26:28 AM "He has made them to be a kingdom and priest to serve our God." This is talking about the present age because we are priest in our personal approach to the throne of grace on behalf our our own needs and the needs of others. We bind and loose what has already been bound and loosed in heaven. Our God works through our prayers to accomplish His kingdom progression. But it will be sight when we go into the new heaven and earth. Where we will be distinguished as rulers. Christ has the reminders that He was the High Priest of our salvation by the human marks but we will know as we are known. Its amazing that we can live in the spiritual kingdom as if the world has been renewed.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 2989  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Death of the "eternal torture" doctrine on: November 06, 2010, 10:17:21 AM Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Let Gods comparative of two ongoing realities ... side by side.. speak for itself. May it be. Amen and Amen. Reply Quote Notify 2990  Forums / Main Forum / Re: When does grace end and consequences begin? on: November 06, 2010, 10:05:12 AM This verse in Titus is distinguishing a believer from a non believer. It is talking about two totally different kingdoms. One kingdom is the kingdom of works which is the sea of trouble. "To the pure all things are pure but to corrupted and do not believe nothing is pure. " This is a jewish proverb distinguishing the wheat from the chaff. Because salvation is all of grace. Grace is not an ability that we control but its found only in the life and righteousness of someone else. It is found only in Christ. So the kingdoms are of men who are gracious for selfish reasons or on the other hand.... men who are gracious because they belong to another person... they belong to Christ. Then they can really quote the proverb that they are declared righteous in the court of heaven so that they are pure by being made pure in the identification of Christ. This is not sinless purity but it is reality. This is because no one can please God by his own efforts. God is the rock of our salvation. Salvation is God coming down to the earth and doing all of the work on our behalf. He comes down as if He is the one who is on the chariot and He comes in the day of trouble. The world is opposed to real grace because they are blind to the spiritual saving events. We live in grace because we only trust in the real saving event. The world says ... you trust in God ... then let God deliver you. The worlds demands are that you produce what you say.. that you prove your goodness by your past effort. We say that God will honor us by our trust in Him. We live by grace and not by the works of the law. Therefore we end all speculation about grace by saying as a confession that we are pure ... we have not been crooked... and in our confession we are looking at Christ alone. There fore we conclude that He alone gave us the strength to resist the foes. We are powerless to do anything. So Christ gives us the ability to rise to our day of trouble because he makes us climb mountains... to the perch where the rock is over our enemies so that our feet are like the feet of a deer climbing the rocks. In other words we may stumble but we will not fall. We are like the deer because we have no ability to defend ourselves from these ferocious beast but we can climb above our troubles. At the top we are most ferocious because we are most above the troubles of this world. We are living in grace like the King of the Israel. David had this promise when he defeated His enemies .. when he was in the heat of the battle and most venerable then Gods glory appeared and took the strength from his foes. God alone got the glory and this is a grace covenant with Davids descendants. We may fall into many temptations but we will not lose the war. This is why our behavior follows our belief or our trusting in the real grace that we will see in the last day .. when we will stand before God.  Our evidence of grace is in our confession of these things. We are promised ongoing salvation as if we were fighting the physical battles of King David. There are thousands upon thousand ... ten thousand times ten thousand of angels who are doing the will of God. We are represented by these heavenly warriors who do Gods bidding as if Christ comes from heaven to rescue us from the day of trouble on a chariot and preceded by the fire of God who consumes our enemies on every side.  Man i thought the Revelation was going to be less violent than the Psalms but this book is the ultimate vengeful reality. This is going to be something that will bring much inward mystery in thinking on these things. God help us all.   Reply Quote Notify 2991  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 04, 2010, 01:59:21 PM cont... The idea of cost or purchasing has more than Christ purchasing the elect in saving them. But salvation also includes punishment for the opposition to redemption. God purchases His people for His own possession. This means that God decided before hand to have a people for Himself before they were born .. in which He would put His love upon. This is in a relationship. God provides salvation for the purchased group and they give God all of the glory. In providing salvation .. God gives eternal life as a quality for His people to enjoy so that they might be displayed before the world as Gods special people. God is not a child abuser. This is why God always relates to His purchased possession through grace. The only abuse that the saint is exposed to are the enemies of God. This is why the deck is always stacked against Gods chosen people. God must promise His saints that He will provide their daily needs .... take care of their protection... and daily renew their spirit. So you have these saints who slip and fall.. who are always going astray.. and who are subject to continuous opposition in this evil age who are in need of Gods constant saving effects. This is why God treats His saints as He would treat His own Son. Because God purchased His elect by the blood of His own Son. And the elect need further protection and salvation. We have an advocate in Christ. We have a comforter in the Holy Spirit. This Spirit comes along side of us to protect us. He leads us on level ground by destroying anything in our way. The reason that we are so valuable is because we are identified with Christ. We are represented by the name of the God of Jacob... the root of David. God must display the value of the purchase by showing that He will demand the blood of the wicked. Every traitor of Gods kingdom is a murderer. Every evil done against Gods elect will be marked for God to reciprocate in the final blood bath against the wicked. The saints will dip their feet in the blood of evil rulers. God will vindicate His name. God takes covenants very seriously. Because breaking a covenant is an act of treachery... its a traitor to Gods relationship. I believe that the person in proverbs who it says then you will seek me... but i will not hear you... is directed toward a covenant breaker who is marked with the hardness of his own personal divided heart. The guilty party. Its talking about natural hardness that results.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 2992  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 04, 2010, 11:42:21 AM There is nothing in ch5 here that puts saving in the hands of men. Because men have always been unable to save themselves. The best that we can do is come before God and ask. Salvation is not just a one time experience but it is ongoing. Every future event in our lives is a spoken decree of God from all eternity. This is why we look to God because He only needs to look at us or speak a word and we are delivered from the trouble... temptation and our adversary. God delivers His people by destroying their opposition. We look to the word of God because it is a saving word to us.  Now you see in heaven this same paradigm. Gods saving word is hidden until the time that God has decreed it be opened. All of the created order is groaning in the pains of child birth for the final renewal of all things when we will rule on this earth as kings and priest. How long oh Lord? But there is only one word we can trust. It was through the word that creation came into being. Because creation was designed by God it was through the will of God alone! And here in 5 there is another future decree that God will destroy mankind and renew heaven and earth. What are the reasons that are brought up by the heavenly creatures? Because God has will men to Himself ..purchasing some men from every part of the earth. The reason that we praise God is because He alone has willed salvation. He alone is able to bring this salvation to its final fruitation. When it is close all the creation groans loudly. This is a kind of cursing against the Satanic opposition of the old earth. The creatures want God to avenge the blood of His Son who spilled His blood for the elect.... out of all the nations...languages etc. They are carrying the prayers... these are the ones that availeth much that rise to heaven like an evening sacrifice of the animal. These are the prayers for personal protection from temptation... protection from a lack of encouragement through fellowship... and protection from the hands of the wicked. This is in the context of cursing the wicked for protection. These are the sweet smelling incense of the saints that are decreed by God for one of the final means to the final renewal. If Christ poured out His blood for the elect then pour out their blood in destruction! They are worshiping God who will judge the earth as He decreed His work. Remove Reply Quote Notify 2993  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Death of the "eternal torture" doctrine on: November 04, 2010, 11:12:07 AM The ot form of ruler ship was in a King who was subject to God by the prophetic relationship the King had with the Priest. The King ruled in the system of checks and balances in the ceremonial laws, the ten commandments, the decrees of God and the wisdom literature. The King was the chief commander of the army. I believe it is consistent with the ot way of threats and punishment that the King David focused on the foreign nations as the back drop for God ruling the earth from Davids throne. This is why David call God his king. The people were threaten with exile as a punishment but the destructive nature of the ruling threat was toward the foreign nations. So we need to see that David as a man ruled by Gods vision of His rite to rule the earth. This is why the concept of justice was not in the vision of the earthly king as God gave Israel the law of God..but it was Gods authority that went out through the decrees as the reinforcement that Israel was special enjoying the protection of the ruler of the earth. So David only had authority as God punished the nations on the one hand and protected Israel from apostatizing on the other hand. God enforced the safe enjoyment of Israel through punishment and it was the destruction of Israels enemies. But the carrying out of the punishment was determined by Gods vision of the eternal nature of justice going beyond the city gates of Israel and the vision of the earthly king to God demanding that the consequences were meted out according to Gods eternal kingdom. This is why destruction was not just the elimination of the physical lives.. the properties ... and physical death but it was a spiritual kingdom of values. In other words David experienced a supernatural enforcement in his earthly rule that God was decreeing for an eternal kingdom. This is why you have this idea that ultimate justice is in the secret counsel of God from eternity. Because all earthly leaders are born  corrupted ideas of ruling. And from these systems of men comes all of the evils on this earth. This is why earthly rulers cannot continue through all generations. Because earthly kingdoms are dominated by the curse of Gods destroying spirit.  The idea of destruction is not just a physical termination... but its a spiritual condition in which a future ruler is dominated by his fleshly desires from birth and out of his desire to avoid the things of God he turns on his neighbor. This is called destroying other people. The earthly kingdoms will all end because there is not a man that is capable of ruling with justice ... equity and consistency. So that the idea of destruction in the mind of a King is receiving just consequences in the kingdom of God. This was consequences not just for rebels against the earthly king but this was consequences for every rebel thought in the secret providence of God. Men are born to avoid God and destroy their neighbor but God is the only one who sees and even tho earthly kingdom... decrease in power ... yet God repays men for every idol thought. This is why there is any available wisdom in this world as the path between destruction and eternal reward. Because there is a kingdom of eternal consequences that puts a man in his rite mind.     Reply Quote Notify 2994  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 02, 2010, 02:55:09 PM Quote from: LuvChess on November 02, 2010, 02:01:17 PM MyBigGod, This past weekend my pastor mentioned a recent interview with Billy Graham where he talked about his eye sight going bad, he has macular-degenration. He said he regrets not committing more scripture to memory. I just wanted to encourage you to keep up the memorizing, it's certainly worth the effort! Thank you LC... i hope to get this book... its time for me to try to master this book as much as i can. Seeing that i have gained a lot from memorizing the other worship book ... that is the Psalms.. there are many parallels in Rev. to the worship in the Psalms. Rev. is sort of like a love- praise language of God in a Jewish context.  Roy i have a lot of questions come up as i am memorizing this book of which i am in between this happening just after the resurrection or in the future in a shorter time period. Heres a verse that i am holding in my mind as i seek for answers in the rest of the book. Rev5: 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. This is obviously post cross and ascension. My question is this historical or future? amil or post mil? Remove Reply Quote Notify 2995  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: November 02, 2010, 08:51:40 AM There is only one who is immortal all other beings have a beginning and we die. Thats why we are not immortal. God has always existed and is not subjected to death. Christ was both God and Man. Death could not have conquered Christ because He was God. But as a Man He was subjected to the effects of sin although He had no sin.It is not sin to be tired. But it is easier to sin when we are weak. All sin is because of human inability. Every man has a breaking point or something that he is under obligation to fall if given the ability to fall. No one is beyond some kind of malady. And all men will succumb to physical death. But even when we go into eternity where there is no time .. because time is a succession of changes and there will be no corruption or degeneration. But we will still be subject to change from one glory to another without corruption. Christ as a men has the appearance as if He were slain. He is the Lamb of God in the center of the throne whos blood purchased the elect saints and demands the blood of all sinners. He will carry out His destruction and end mens sin by the blood of fools and traitors. He is worshiped in heaven because He cannot be thwarted. So Christ as a man is still changing in eternity. And yet He is God who is incorruptible, immortal or unchanging. But we will not be subject to corruption as people who are changing when we go into eternity. Every human endeavor on this side of heaven is mixed with nature and corruption. The good is overcome by the evil in the desire to achieve something. Every sin is a lack of ability to fulfill our natural desires. Only in Christ do we get what we desire because Christ is our willing identity. There will be no more measurements of time in eternity... only that we will increase in ability from one glory to another.  Got to be patient with me on this memorization. Almost done with the second chapt.. 5 but i need to digest this stuff. Then i need more than a few chapters as well.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 2996  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace = Power to Do the Law on: November 01, 2010, 11:11:52 PM K_k:  So God's moral Law, which is eternal, is the foundation of His government.  And Jesus fulfilled the Law, meaning filled it full.  He didn't abolish the Law, but showed how He would keep it in us.  As i said, the Law is a promise of our righteousness in Christ. The righteousness of Christ is His righteousness alone. His righteousness is credited to our account. But it is not intrinsically our righteousness. This righteousness is not from our obedience but it is Christ obedience credited to us. If Christ righteousness could attribute to our personal righteousness any goodness and acceptability to God then there needs to be a comparison so that we do not think that we obeyed the whole law in comparative to His passive and active obedience. Because if we attribute His righteousness giving us the ability to please God then we must do it on the level of Christ pleasing His Father. But we could never meet the standard of Christ obedience. If His righteousness makes us able in any way to please God by our obedience then we lower His righteousness to our level. We must conclude that we are wicked so that we might be justified by faith and not through the ability of our own obedience. Or not by the work of the law. We are declared righteous by imputation. We are not intrinsically righteous enough to please God. God looks at Christ and He sees us completely righteous.   Reply Quote Notify 2997  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace = Power to Do the Law on: October 31, 2010, 03:07:38 PM Thanks KK... this is another thread that i will expose your armininsm for what it is. A total confidence breaker. Assurance being broken against the righteous standard of God. First the law was a separate covenant from the covenant of grace. Law and grace do not mix. Law and grace do not work side by side. Law and grace are opposites. When the ot saint looked to the law he saw a tsunami that was coming that was so big that it would consume a man in sorrow. That is why God provided the people with the covenant of grace. Because they were to look away from the law unto grace.  The law is alive because God is God. God is the only law abide r . God does not appease himself in any way... God carries out his law because He cannot be lesser then God at all times. Man is a law breaker. Man is subject to Gods definition of punishment. This is why man cannot make the law.. man cannot devise the punishment and man cannot develop the remedy for breaking the law. Man who is a law breaker is not only powerless against the punishment God puts man in but man is powerless to quiet the voice of the law. Because man cannot quiet the voice of the law then man cannot imagine himself beyond being condemned. God does this reminding by numbering mans days. God is proving that He alone deserves all of the glory for being the only righteous one. He is alone the holy one. The problem is that man is blind to his own ability to measure himself in relation to Gods law. Man is not just blind but man is foolish. Because God deserves mans complete submission to God. But man is a rebel. God has spoken and man has rebelled. Man is born a rebel. This is why rebels have no hope. Because they have been judged before they are born. They are under sin. They do not have the capabilities to please God at any time on this earth. Man is cursed with mental laziness... a lack of mental understanding... a body that is corrupted and subject to disease and failure. And man is cursed by God because everything that man possesses is ultimately going to fail and pass on to another sinner. The only hope for man in his own skin is to wake up that he .. himself is a cursed sinner. And every day he wakes up is a day that might end his existence in this world. God is ready to judge sinners in hell.  This is why a believer is a powerless inherent of the greatest acceptance and pleasure that can be imagined. Because God has taken care of the enmity between them. Now the great law giver pronounces acceptance on the law breaker. You see that God saves sinners so that He can display Himself to them. God has ended sins reign. But man only understands this relationship to God as man understands himself before a holy God!Why does man love Gods law?  First David loved Gods law because it showed him the reality of who God is! David loved Gods law because God gave David the understanding that David could not please God by his own efforts. This was an eternal agreement between David and God. This is called the covenant of promise or the covenant of grace. God promised that if David trusted in His Son for all of Davids acceptance that God would display Himself as the law giver in front of Davids eyes. This is the law keeper who is God showing the law breaker who is David how faithful the law keeper is in coming to the aid of the law breaker as if the law breaker kept the whole law. But David loved the law because David understood that he could not come to God with his own obedience. God produces in the sinner saved by grace the reality of faithfulness... goodness... mercy... grace... and kindness in showing Himself to be the only law keeper and yet treating His law breakers as if they kept the law! This is just the first reason.     Reply Quote Notify 2998  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: October 31, 2010, 01:19:00 PM  Job 1 6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"       Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."  8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." Ok Roy.. i am ready for some more of those word studies... do you believe in a literal earthly kingdom? i dont care about the word studies that are presented like a secret puzzle. If you believe in an earthly kingdom than what historical position of end times do you agree with? Who other than Roy supports Roy s word studies?  Here are two distinct realms and places... God never changes... He will renew this whole entire eternal order to its original pre Adamic state. Revelation is this entire book... but there are many revealings in the bible. Dont be so swat at a Nat and swallow a camel. There are three heavens in scripture... one of which is where God has a local throne. I really dont have time to argue with you about your puzzle. Just check the historical studies. 2 Peter 3:3-13This is not written in comparative language..i cant remember the other form...but  this is an overlapping language. I dont know where you get the idea from this passage .. i mean just looking at it in the english it is clear that we will end up with a new heaven and a new earth.. simular to this one. 2 Peter 3 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.  This verse here that you brought up .. you must have forgotten to do a Roy word study... God is outside of time. If you read... most historical theologians distinguish eternity from time. Can you show me someone who agrees with you? Where are you coming from? Do you stand alone in your word studies.? Roy i have given you one opinion.. thought transportation..... you have given me a whole bunch of opinions that do not have any historical reference. Roy...Again, I am not a dispensationalist, nor do I accept dispensational teaching in any respect. If i am not mistaken sir... I have read somewhere in these post that you believe in a literal kingdom on earth.. There is only on camp that holds that position... Dispensationalist. I mean... that really means anything in present day distinguishing of camps.  I am not claiming that you are a dispensationalist in the literal sense but one who holds a dispensationalist position.... sorry i should have point to it as a kind of metaphor... you must have swallowed another camel. Trinitarian doctrine... sorry for the dirty word... historical doctrine.. sorry for the mis interpretative method. But the Father is one with Christ in substance.... "If you have seen Christ you have seen the Father".... i dont see any thing that is contrary to what i have written .. thats the third camel... One in substance and two in Persons. I just showed you the scripture that refutes your word puzzle refuting me. Revelation is not three passages of scripture... its a bunch of former revealings culminated into an explanation of the Revelation. All scripture is God breathed or it is connected like a bunch of beads on a string. You cant separate revelation from the entire book of revealings. 4th camel.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 2999  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does sinning break fellowship with Jesus? on: October 29, 2010, 09:29:31 AM The curse is a blindness. Men are born to live in a dream world. This is why pride ... a sin that looks small... is the most damning sin. Because that man who has pride in himself is a man who ignores God and will not think of God. The bible does not condemn a man for his outward sins but it portrays the inward hidden life of the man as he grows and becomes powerful and famous. This man looks at his life and concludes the he has no needs. He says in his heart .. i will not be troubled... i will never face the same troubles as my neighbor.This man looks at his life and he is very happy about himself. Mean while he has no thoughts of God. The most damnable sins are not the outward sins... like drunkenness or fornication ... over eating. Those sins can be forgiven... The most damnable sins are the sin of blindness.. the sin of unbelief. A man who concludes that he has acquired everything himself. Little does he know that God hates pride. Out of all of the sins that God hates ... pride is the number one. Because pride comes from a heart of unbelief. This man refuses to consider who God is. This man will not think of God. He does everything he can to ignore and avoid the things of God. This sin cannot be forgiven because there is no hope for men in their natural state. God is not in all of their thoughts because they love themselves to much to consider the end of their days. This is why men will acknowledge outward sins and even conform to a set of principles. But deep down in their hearts they refuse to acknowledge God in all their ways. Men will be meticulous about the sins of show.. they will think that God will not hear them because of some outward sin. They will play the gotcha game on the way of the ladder of success but they refuse to have God in their thoughts. You see it really was not the sin of adultery that David was focused on. It was a confession of Davids inability to please God because David saw the blackness of his heart from birth! David was not concerned about the scope of his sin .. he was concerned about understanding the depth of his sin. Because David wanted not only to dwell on God but David wanted a heart that was fully glorifying God. This was the standard of the psalmist. He saw the complete failure in presenting himself to God. David was not playing the gotcha game with God. David was seeking God nite and day so that he had a heart that was enlarged by the goodness and faithfulness of God. Because David understood that it wasnt the scope of his sin but the depth of his sin that made him seek God face to face! Reply Quote Notify 3000  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does sinning break fellowship with Jesus? on: October 28, 2010, 01:42:25 PM We confuse punishment and the troubles of the world. Our first instinct is to listen to the counselor voice. Or its the voice of the post scientific discoveries and studies. What i mean by post scientific communication is that we no longer allude the the study... in the 70s generation there was this new method of learning relationships and it was just gaining ground in the social sciences. I remember this like the back of my hand..... So they used to say... when we look at the behavior of the animals and they would give you the particular paper ... then we get a better view of the problems of marriage...  but now it has been so ingrained in the culture that we just assume the new relationship communication is the truth. I call this the counselor voice. But the believer understands that God works out all things for the good. We work and God works ... or God works in us. So we need to see that we are totally dependent on God as the motif for the second commandment. In other words all other gods are from this scientific study method. That is human relationships defined down to the earthly level. Every problem must be solved by God alone. We can do nothing. Our honor ... or our return of rewards ... is dependent on God alone! We start communicating wrongly and we add the troubles that come from the world system to ourselves.  So when we speak to the post scientific culture we do not speak from the same mindset. So we say i dont worry because God will work it out... they say... your responsible... we say yes and thats what scares us because we are such failures. So that our doctrine produces rest and ease while their scientific methods produce anxiety ... regret.. sorrow... and determinism of the counselor voice. They say that the experience of men and women prove the need to change a behavior. This language comes with a sub text of scientific studies. We say that God alone is able to change the situation no matter how bad it is. We must be dominated by the biblical mandates. We must not think that we know better. Every false teaching starts with self talk. Its the talk of the world... its not seeing God as the beginning and the end of all things. Our sorrows do not produce our relationship problems but they define who we are in society. We live before a holy God who knows us better than we know ourselves. No horizontal relationship is going to make us less sorrowful. The only hope is coming before God and talking to Him in the wisdom that we have been taught from our young yrs. We must define our relationship with God as the holistic understanding of who we are and we respond in the life that we know we experience with God alone! We must learn how to unburden our souls to God.. to quiet our souls like a weened child... totally dependent on his mother... Or we will be looking in all the wrong places for acceptance and holistic healing. This is from yrs of talking to myself in the wisdom books.