No a believers new self is not neurotic. Because God dwells in our hearts by faith and our lives are hid in God so that whatever happens in our reality is contained by God. God produces reality from the beginning to the end. This is why all of our struggles with sin and weakness were ordained by God from all eternity. I do not believe that our bad traits... that is the individual part of what we are in our identity is a lasting evil. But God will turn it for our good. Where as a wicked man stands in his own sin and weakness ...who will receive just recompense for all of these personal problems in the paradigm of unbelief. God creates us in Christ as His loved children and it was purposed for all eternity. So we can say that a reaction from the world to our lack or benefit is not entirely based in reality. Since our lives are in God and we are shielded by Him unto all eternity.  This is why God defines salvation as Him displaying His goodness and faithfulness through broken vessels. What we need to see is that God is eternally intelligent so that He sees the smallest things that we could not even understand about ourselves. Because we have an incomplete knowledge of ourselves we must come to acknowledge God to be God as He orders everything to come from His throne. God not only saves us but He protects us from what could happen seeing that He never changes and He works on behalf of the saints through this infinite sight of intelligence. God must act toward the those who cannot see the real danger. We are just required to stand our ground. This is why God has military powers. Because Christ must come as a conquer bent on a conquest. This conquest is in His divine providence throughout the ages unto the end. Christ works in all of the conflicts of this world to bring time to an end in which Christ will rule through all eternity. His intelligent understanding is how he rules on this earth even tho it seems that the world is hopeless. Christ works in these events and measures each event in justice so that He will demand an accounting from His opposition. And even tho this unfolded in a direct way when Christ came to earth and led captivity to eternity yet He as always worked to protect Israel and His people in this procession through the created beings that surround His throne who do not change. Do we believe that God is near? Do we believe that God extends His rule... His all seeing eye to save in our very presence on a daily basis? Have we seen Gods observance of our coming and going in knowing that He understands us better than we can understand ourselves? Do you realize that God is a present refuge from all the troubles of this life because He has promised to act on our behalf from His rite hand and this procession from heaven is to do His will on our behalf? This is our God.

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2914  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Death of the "eternal torture" doctrine on: December 21, 2010, 07:54:12 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 04, 2010, 10:47:40 PM mbG: "Kk does not think that God has an eternal hatred for sin." K_k:  mbG, almost every time you say Kk doesn't think this or Kk says or Kk thinks that, you haven't got what i have been saying, or meaning, quite right. In this case, i believe it is clear that God has an eternal hatred for anything that can seriously harm His kids.  He "loves the sinner and hates the sin".  And He will not be patient forever, but will bring all sin, and sinners to a final End one day (soon i hope).  Until then we are to carry the message of reconciliation "that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting men's sins against them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation". mbG:  "If sin demands punishment then it demands eternal punishment." K_k:  No, Scripture says "the wages of sin is death", "the soul that sins shall die".  Sin deserves to be stopped completely, not maintained forever by keeping sinners alive to sin indefinitely. You understand that God hates sin, but you don't yet understand that He hates it more than you know.  He hates it so much He will eradicate it, and all who cling on to sin, forever.  There will be neither sin nor sinners in the Kingdom. Oh, and Hi, jenni.  I'll try to be nicer now.  Thanks for the reminder.   KK you can disagree with my trying to define your position but if there is no conscious communication of recompense in an eternal sense then there is no eternal anger expressed as a reality. The bible does not say that God is angry with the sin of the wicked every day... but God is angry with the wicked every day. Kks teaching has no basis in the origins or causes of reality. Man was not created with as a physical and spiritual being. But man is one. This means that even tho we define these different attributes of man ... God made man body and spirit... inseparable. This means that man as a whole is a free moral agent. Man is really a meta physical being. God created man with a reality that man owes God his whole allegiance. We define a mans reality in his relation to God as a free moral agent. This is why God cannot destroy this moral connection because God purposed to bring glory to himself in creating man as a moral agent so that God will get glory in the punishment of those who do not meet those demands. If man was not responsible as a moral agent then no man could experience a reality in his freedom to reflect the goodness and glory of God as a meta physical enjoyment. If mans existence could be terminated then man as  a free moral agent does not exist as a separate being in the quality of time.  This is why we are what we think before we act according to our natural abilities. The bible puts a premium on knowledge because we live in our minds before we as the motif for enjoying this life. The more we know God the more we are shielded from the sorrows that we find in this world and the more we are aware of the pleasures of the knowledge of God. These pleasure are like filling up an empty well so that we have resources that come up from the deep recesses of the soul ... enjoying spiritual communications as if we were enjoying sitting at a table feasting on the finest foods. We have this moral connection to reality that is mixed with pain and sorrow. This defines our need as it brings us into a knowledge outside of ourselves in being able to judge the true value of the nature of things in this world and looking unto things that are two wonderful for us to image in the eternal world. Reality is not what we think it should be but it is rapped up in our knowledge of God. We must see that the purposes of God include our being connected to God as moral agents whether in alienation or in eternal bliss.        Reply Quote Notify

2915  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Humility ... True and False. on: December 21, 2010, 03:33:16 AM Humility is not neurotic. Thats why James is not presenting a formula so we plug in a little of this and out comes the electricity. The christian man is the only one on this earth that has an ability to judge himself ritely and not feel as if he is over sorrowed to the point of death. Remember that humility is for our own good because it creates in us a new man. Because the point James is making is that we are easily led astray about our own importance. Thats where fighting and quarrels come from. But its not a counter balance method where everyone walks around quoting to one another as if we were pronouncing curses on our weaknesses about our relationships. But we are allowed by God to be totally honest about everything. Not just as a penitent sinner but as a prosecuting attorney as well. Arguing our own case before God.. Oh man.. i want to get into the revelation account but i dont have time. But these saints have suffered on this earth and they are in heaven now as advocates for the saints on earth who know how to plead the cause of the weak and fatherless in a perfect way... save it for later....  This is why humility can be more easily imagined because the christian can try to perform before God more easily than he can be completely honest in his presence. Just look at the sheep and shepherd paradigm. We are the most unable so that He might show His power in and through us. James was concerned about these social structures ... ie rich and poor ... having no bearing in the church.. but we support one another because in the church God does as He pleases in comforting one another in His defined society...   Oh man... got to go.. after the holidays it will be easier for me. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2916  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: 100 point summary of Calvin's "Institutes" (to be reconciled) on: December 21, 2010, 02:44:37 AM I do not think the parable of the sower and the seed is focused on the soil. There are only two kinds of people in this world. An unbeliever was never a half way unbeliever.. and a christian was never a half way christian. The parable is simply making this distinction. It centers around the word of God. It is the word as the instrument or the seed and the Spirit is the person who applies the word to our hearts. I do not think you can argue that no matter how much a person is exposed to the word of God ....if he has the wrong soil it will not take root in his heart. The word itself is that instrument which plows the ground in order for the seed to prosper in the soil. The problem here is one of apostasy. Not necessarily the evidence of fruit. As Kk presents his argument it is focused on the soil. I think that the word cannot return void. The parable is one of encouragement and not equal trading. You can have associations on a horizontal level where you could say this person is the worldly person... or this person is the one who has the word choked out through troubles. But apostasy is not a temporary departure. This is why we need to focus on the word as the only hope of understanding the long term view of life and not judging these things by our pre conceived ideas. In other words its the kind of attitude we have towards the word of God that is the fruit that last. Kk will tell you that its the word and a small amount of the soil that saves a man. But this parable is about the action that the word has over the soil. The principle here is that if you think you are one of the 3 soils then you need to expose yourself to the word of God because the word is the instrument of new life. Reply Quote Notify

2917  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Humility ... True and False. on: December 18, 2010, 08:13:46 AM Humility comes from the reality of grace. When we think of our sin and we focus on our confession as the principle cause of being forgiven then we are not teaching ourselves true humility. Humility is not earned but it is caught. Because Christ has done all of the work then true humility demands that we look away from our own ability unto Christ work. When we begin to understand humility we know it to be false when we apply these things with an improper balance as we try to please ourselves by looking humble to others. This is why humility is our understanding of sin... our application of justification by faith and out of this having a real understanding of our weakness. True humility is seeing the great gulf between Gods goodness and our lack. It is seeking God for God. True humility is only understood when we have seen God. IT is a condition in which we feel undone. In some sense humility is getting to the point where we are freed from ourselves. It is like and incomplete beautific vision of God. This is why it is not the result of something we do. It is not at the end of something in a self focus. But it is something that happens to us. When we see God we get a vision of something that is too great for us. We lose a sense of who we are.. what the future holds and our measuring ourselves under the tension of this worlds weighted goals. We experience a small vision of another world. When we see God we know how much of a pull the world had as a kind of an incomplete wish that was never satisfied and in comparative to the surpassing greatness of knowing God we stand in awe of a power that is so great we sense something that is timeless ... the tension of this world turns into a sense of wonder and helpless to understand the full weight of the illumination. Humility is enjoying God. Remove Reply Quote Notify

2918  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: 100 point summary of Calvin's "Institutes" (to be reconciled) on: December 18, 2010, 07:38:29 AM Let me just address book one. Maybe if you would give this out in small portions it would be easier to discuss. But Calvin explains that all men are given a desire to worship a god. We believe in a real line that separates two realities. Because God has made man with a god consciousness then man if fully responsible for his rebellion and hatred for God. If man was able in himself to seek God as KK has been saying then God is to blame for the lack of mans ability since God made man with real spiritual faith. This is why KKs description of my position is not entirely correct. But we believe that man is responsible because of the condition of his heart. This makes it impossible for man to come on his own to God and makes it a real salvation that is absolutely necessary ... seeing there is a real hopelessness in this world apart from Christ. Kk describes man with a partial hopelessness because God meets man half way. Kk also creates the image that God is helpless because He must react to man when man avoids and shows disdain for God. But we believe that God protects man from himself in not allowing man to be as bad as he could be... thus we believe that God is always good. But KK paints a picture of a God who is only able to bring pain and suffering to make a man willing. God is a great arm wrestler in the sky and man has power in his own arm of the flesh to harden his own heart and to withstand Gods promptings. If man has the ability to seek God then God is powerless in some way and  man is able to blame God as being a weak God. This is why we believe that man in his natural state is blind, helpless, and totally depraved... who cannot seek God unless God comes to man. Man is responsible because we see the real condition of his soul.Man is responsible because he chooses by the condition of his soul. Our view of sin and depravity make it absolutely necessary that man be saved. Kk paints a picture of man not being responsible for his own condition.   Reply Quote Notify

2919  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Prodigal son vs opposite old testament commands on: December 16, 2010, 04:01:04 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 16, 2010, 02:34:33 PM mbg:  "God only has one will and it works in both hardening and saving at the same time." K_k:  Slight change in focus:  God hardens those who have hardened themselves and saves those who have had their hardness broken, and turn to Him in their brokenness.  It is His will to never be the direct cause of people hardening their own hearts against Him, as well as to be the only hope they have of being saved from their growing hardness of heart. KK when you are saying Pharaoh hardened his heart is that the same grammar structure as the sentence of scripture saying that God hardened Pharaohs heart?  If Pharaoh had a choice equal to not hardening and hardening then there is no choice there.. that is nothing. The only real cause of his choice is for Pharaoh to have a blindness to life. Do you think that blindness has lesser or greater levels?   Reply Quote Notify

2920  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The coming of the great Apocalypse on: December 16, 2010, 01:55:59 PM This is like my little baby...speaking figuratively... so its going to take some time... still moving along in my memorization... Remove Reply Quote Notify

2921  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Prodigal son vs opposite old testament commands on: December 16, 2010, 01:48:26 PM You need to distinguish this is terms of relationship and not actual rebellion. The sons in the NT account are in a family situation. That is a spiritual family. The Father has a specific love that cannot fail. I would consider the consequences of rebellion to fall on the covenant breaker rather than someone who is in the house who has wandered away from our Father. I can see a parallel to Jesus addressing the Pharisees but i dont see the warning of both sons to be cast into hell. The bible is not a moral rule of law in which God is necessarily carrying out His law across the board without any consideration of the person. This is why Gods punishment was deflected from His covenant community and He did not repay them for each of their sins. We must distinguish between the Nation of Israel.. and the other Nations and then within the Nation of Israel those who received some of the blessing but were only circumcised outwardly and not in the heart. From those who were of the remnant who were Gods chosen people and enjoyed of the covenant blessing of as sons.  The OT only provides two necessary categories because the covenant faithfulness does not depend upon man but upon God. Salvation was never looked upon in an ot prophetic since as we define it today in the American version. Salvation was provided to Gods remnant within the group that shared the outward sign of circumcision. The rest were passed over by God. This is why the OT is mainly a book about the history of redemption and not a collection of moral stories. Those who know they belong to God are the only ones who understand what salvation is about. The blind are covenant breakers. So this makes the central focus to be on Gods salvation message directed in a way that proves God is the beginning and the end of salvation. Covenant theology is salvation theology and there is no way to copy it on this earth. Its objective proof is not argued but demonstrated and it cannot be argued against the back drop of sin and weakness that it is unjust as it is viewed by man. It always works to the end because salvation is in God alone. Thus you have a wicked son and a righteous son... that does not mean both look different all of the time... which is the central message of the prodigal son. God only has one will and it works in both hardening and saving at the same time.       Reply Quote Notify

2922  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The word of who? on: December 16, 2010, 01:23:45 PM I am all for people presenting opposing views but this is a filibuster tactic here by S bag... round and round we go. Reply Quote Notify

2923  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: The incredible shrinking economy on: December 16, 2010, 01:18:57 PM DC feeding frenzy The weeks since Election Day have provided nauseating confirmation of Mark Twain's observation: "There is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." Exhibit A is the "omnibus" spending bill Harry Reid is trying to push through the Senate. This monstrosity contains about 6,500 earmarks -- special provisions inserted on behalf of lobbyists to benefit special interests. The lobbyists get big fees, the interest groups get handouts and the politicians get rewarded with contributions from both. It's a win-win-win for everyone -- except the taxpayers who finance this carousel of corruption. Don't bother me, I'm placating special interests: Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is making a lot of lobbyists very happy. - AP Don't bother me, I'm placating special interests: Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is making a lot of lobbyists very happy. Defenders of earmarks and other forms of pork-barrel spending argue that this behavior can't possibly be corrupt because it's legal. But not everything that's immoral is illegal and not everything that's illegal is immoral -- and earmarks definitely belong in the first category. Normal people would call it bribery, but it's business as usual on Capitol Hill. Equally troubling, earmarks and pork-barrel spending are the gateway drug that turns good legislators into big spenders. The new members may not take office until next month, but most are in Washington, and they're seeing how this process works. One hopes that they are shocked by this unseemly behavior -- but how long will it take before they get jaded and decide to play the game? The bill's backers call it "fiscally responsible" because it increases spending by "only" 2 percent compared to last year -- but that's no sign of austerity when spending for these programs jumped by 20 percent in the last two years, as the national debt soared by about $3 trillion in the same period. If politicians were serious about fiscal responsibility, they'd impose across-the-board cuts to bring spending back down to 2008 levels -- and then cut more from that new baseline. And Reid's bill is just the spending for the parts of the budget that are funded by "appropriations." Entitlement spending, which is the lion's share of the federal budget, continues on auto-pilot -- and the auto-pilot's on course to turn the United States into Greece. Exhibit B is the tax deal. This Congress has been in session for almost two years, with every single member fully aware that a failure to act would result in a huge tax increase next month. Yet the politicians apparently didn't care that a lengthy delay would create uncertainty and discourage much-needed investment and entrepreneurship. The delay did make it harder for the Democrats to raise tax rates on investors, entrepreneurs, small business owners and other so-called rich taxpayers. But that doesn't mean the wait-until-the-last-moment tax bill isn't ugly. Regardless of what you think of its core elements, it's also packed with provisions -- known as "extenders" -- that reek of corruption and special-interest deal making. Extenders are the tax version of pork-barrel spending: special tax breaks put in the law by powerful politicians in exchange for campaign cash and other support. The biggest extender is the ethanol credit, a boondoggle that distorts agriculture markets and causes considerable economic and environmental damage, but is popular with politicians because big agribusinesses recycle some of their undeserved profits back to Washington in the form of contributions. The dozens of other extenders include special loopholes for solar and wind power, education spending, bonds for Louisiana and NASCAR racing. There are strong policy arguments against these kinds of special tax breaks, especially since we could use the revenue to finance lower tax rates -- but most people are even more upset by the dead-of-night process used to put these goodies into the tax bill. The behavior on Capitol Hill reminds me of the movie classic, "Animal House": After their fraternity has been placed on "double-secret probation," John Belushi and the rest of guys at the Delta House decide to go out in a blaze of glory with a toga party. Likewise, the politicians on Capitol Hill just got placed on the equivalent of probation by a Tea Party uprising. Yet rather than mend their crooked ways, they're throwing a massive party with our money. Daniel J. Mitchell is a Cato In stitute senior fellow. Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/dc_feeding_frenzy_OmaWYPKGV2YtrTaFqHowYM#ixzz18IfvCTxf Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/dc_feeding_frenzy_OmaWYPKGV2YtrTaFqHowYM#ixzz18IeuCbpq Remove Reply Quote Notify

2924  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Literal or non-literal on: December 14, 2010, 02:55:19 PM The reason that Steve Bag got thrown off was because he got into the prayer section where people were genuinely hurting and he was questioning everything. Steve is not on here as with genuine motives but he just wants to cause trouble. You will find that he has no interest even discussing what he believes but he just responds like someone who is here to write stuff that is going to create some emotional turmoil or have people questioning their own faith in the wrong way. Go ahead an engage him... eventually you will find hes only a troll. Reply Quote Notify

2925	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace = Power to Do the Law	on: December 10, 2010, 03:16:22 PM
Quote "We have a part to play, we are not just passive recipients.  And yet, "apart from Him we can do nothing". As you know Kk likes to present my position as being passive. Well of course my rejecting what is wrong is the other side of the coin of faith that KK knows in our little disagreements. This of course is the classic dig against the Calvinistic position. Although i do not want to be mean to KK i must defend my position. Kk does not even believe that the Apostle in Romans 7 is a believer. Because he holds to a position that a believers growth patterns bring him closer to perfection. When we bring up the doctrine of total depravity...We being TB.. STP and others.. Kk believes that faith is a natural gift in man that works along with Gods will. But he describes it in an unorthodox way ... kind of like a contradiction. He says that God allows us the freedom to choose but God doesnt actually determine our choice. Allowance is like christian "chance". But then he turns around and in the same sentence says that God empowers us to do all good. I am still trying to figer this out. So my passive view of faith is a denial of kks contradiction. When i say that God empowers us i mean He determines whatsoever comes to pass. Power is nothing without will. The problem is not one of passivity but as John says doing it in the flesh. Or performing works from the principle of a return. My acceptance for His power. Here is what the bible says. A christian has no ability to respond to God unless God determines him to act. Because Gods power is fully able to keep the believer from temptation. God alone has the rite to determine what we are going to choose. Our problem is we think we are able. We perform based upon our natural inclination to act in our own interest. Our power is of no consequence against Gods power. We know God to be God because we acknowledge that He is God in ability as well as performing His work. God alone gets the glory!  Our purpose in this life is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever. This means that we can only have one focus. If we give a little to ourselves and a little to God then we have not learned to rest. Who can resist His will? If resist is Gods freedom and mans freedom coming together then resist equal chance. But the reality of resist is only when is God determining what we are going to chose. This is why we accept that God alone is able because this makes us most dependent on God. When we are most dependent on God then we have a natural inclination to leave our lives in His hands. It is absolutely necessary as a matter of salvation that we come to understand dependence on God as the motif for developing a true christian disposition. Because all the sorrows of the soul are resisting the true rest of a sovereign disposition of God being God.   2926  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How Does America "Presently" View God? on: December 10, 2010, 02:25:53 PM Quote from: SBag on December 08, 2010, 08:38:12 PM mbg are you suggesting that disasters of such a nature man has no control over are really done by the god you believe in ? You did say something about this god doing whatever pleases him on earth. We make plans with a certain amount of detail. We usually discuss these plans ie.. calling to set up appointments... talking to our friends about our plans.. and thinking about the details of what we must do to accomplish them in a timely fashion. But God plans all of the history of the world for one purpose so that He sees the beginning from the end in one view. Gods thought is His design to act. God does not waste thoughts wondering about something in a disposition of fret.. or worry... fear.. or sorrow. God acts according to His nature. He is other because He is set apart from His creation as a holy God. So that He acts perfectly as He brings goodness and glory to Himself. God alone is good.  The reason that God brings calamity on this earth is to bring good out of disaster. Because God must act to defend the helpless.. down trodden.. the poor and the oppressed. In any third world country evil rulers dominate the poor. God uses calamity to bring in other nations to come to their aid. God uses calamities to pull back the tide of sin and show wicked men their powerlessness. God has a program that extends world wide because He has determined to bring the gospel and aid poor nations through His missionaries. God acts to defend those people who are not known by us because He knows every thing in the universe down to the molecule kind of knowing. God reminds people that He sends calamity to avenge the poor and the innocent. Without this threat the world system would swallow up the powerless. Because God has made a covenant with the OT and NT church to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth. God even knows the last person who will be brought into the covenant family before He comes for His final judgment of the heavens and earth. God has a long term view so that His generations of faithful followers come through family ancestors who pass down His covenant promises to their children so that He has created a history of kings and queens who will rule in the new heaven and earth. When we ask why there is calamity it must be put in the context of Gods justice being carried out on the earth because of sin and the events that are connected about men who are justly rewarded for their sin. When we think of the Gods people being swept up in the same calamity it is heroic.  Because every one of Gods people die with a confession that He is Lord as the ultimate heroic act... an act of faith that will be rewarded. God rules as a covenant loving God.     Reply Quote Notify 2927  Forums / Theology Forum / Humility ... True and False. on: December 10, 2010, 09:56:22 AM There is so much stuff out there in the teaching of humility that is false. The teaching of humility is the central focus of the gospel. Without an understanding of the true nature of humility we would forever be the subjects of clinical depression. I cannot understand any christian man asking God to humble him. Because we believe that we have already obtained grace which teaches us humility. What does it teach us... that we have been given a new will that is gifted to us apart from works. We did not even receive the will of God by our own asking. We received the will of God by His act of force. He destroyed our old will with a power that is greater than a nuclear bomb. We have a new soil in which the word of God has  implanted humility as the saving instrument of grace. We live in true repentance as that implantation. Its just like asking God to show us His will... we do not need to ask Him to show us...we can do anything we want accordingly and we cannot do a thing without Him. We could never live in grace without true humility also.  Our problem is that we do not know our God. This is why God is not going to force us to know Him... He has already given us the dynamite power to obtain all that we ask for! Our problem in not knowing our God is that we live on the level of a pauper when we are kings and priest! You see that evil exist as a false image of the true Man. Any time we bring God down to our level so that we can control Him if we display a certain attitude toward Him then we are worshiping a false image of God! God must be sought after as God! We cannot seek God in a false personality of who we are ! We must know ourselves as well! Self knowledge is evidence in the freedom we have to apply these spiritual things in the rite gifts that we have! But we cannot grow in the understanding of who we are until we know how to be transparent in our prayers before our Father. Now then true humility is understanding ourselves and understanding God.   Reply Quote Notify 2928  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins on: December 10, 2010, 09:30:33 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 08, 2010, 12:47:00 PM mbG:  "Kk.. i dont waste my time trying to please Christ in wondering how much of my will He has or wants." K_k:  Self-examination, in the power of the Spirit is valuable for showing us His progress in our lives and for humbling us with realization of how far we are from His perfection. "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves."  2 Cor 13:5 mbG:  "We always excuse ourselves and accuse others. I often hear people talk about how they did not get healed until they took full responsibility for their own sins..." K_k:  No, under the influence of the Spirit we stop accusing others for our sins and accept that we alone chose to sin, we are the cause, Christ is the solution.  The saying is that we are to take responsibility for our sins, not "full responsibility" since we do not have that capacity outside of Christ. mbG:  "This is why there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Who can bring any charge against Gods elect? Who is he that condemns? How can this be true and yet have sinners acting in a way that has no threat of retribution? This is the million dollar question." K_k:  Yes, no condemnation to those who are His, no charges in God's foresight, since He sees us with the righteousness of the Son.  Yet He also sees our need, our condition, in our present reality.  And He gives us consequences to correct our path back to His direction.  Just like any loving Dad would. "If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?  But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.  Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?"  Hebrews 12:7-9 There is a difference between feeling sorry for yourself and short examinations of yourself. The christian faith is not one of passive acceptance of entertaining accusations. I do not think we present an accurate and truthful presentation of the gospel when we recoil from our sins and live in sorrow. We are to resist the enemy and He will flee from us ... not the other way around. What is the chief attack that the enemy uses on us? It is against us in using the guilt of our sins against us. The christians primary focus is on resisting the present evil age. When we live in guilt we are suffering a double minded with a sinful lack of confidence that Christ has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west. This is why we are never required to ask God to humble us. I have prayed these biblical prayers for yrs and there is no spirit of humility in wanting to be humbled. That is equal to a lack of gospel understanding of grace encouragement.  But we are warned against pride and we are required to seek the glory of God in order to see God and know we are but dust! Listen to me.... our main battle is not with our sins! Our main battle is to resist evil ... resist evil men... and in this we are resisting Satan. How do we resist? By the word of His power. If we were just to resist Satan then we would be aiming at someone of whom we know very little about. .who is far greater knowledge of us and power to thwart our power. But we are to resist Satans children. How can we resist this worlds temptations... that come through the doctrines of demons ... because men always live according to what they trust in... men are given over to idols. We cannot resist by creating problems as an offensive tactic. We resist by passive resistance. We only have one remedy against the tactics of evil men. We can see a defense in these spiritual means of the word.. prayer.. and worship. We must become as wise as serpents and as harmless as Doves. Because God says vengeance is mine I will repay says the Lord. In other words instead of the salvation of God teaching us sorrow upon sorrow over sin... or moving us to be unbalanced in knowing how to approach our sins... we are required to act as a high priest on behalf of a spiritual community. We are require to see beyond the physical examination to the spiritual problem. We are required to be zealous to see the end of things even if it means resisting to blood. We are required to act upon the strength that God has given us in the use of the means. If we act in our own strength then we will live in continuous guilt , having a standard that is common among men and not knowing that Gods smile is behind the evil that we find in our trials. We must stand up like men! This is why the christian man experiences victory ... even in a temporary defeat. Because this man has fought many battles and he knows the tactics of the enemy. A spiritual man judges all things but he himself is judged by no man. Because a spiritual man has availed himself to the spiritual means. The reason the church has become so powerless is because the church does not resist the evil that is in this world. And the world has come into the church. We have many romantic notions that spring from a false application of the history of redemption.   Reply Quote Notify 2929  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Modern women and marriage on: December 08, 2010, 11:30:45 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on December 06, 2010, 04:40:57 PM mbG:  "What I would like is a wife who would dress up like a Tampa Bay Bucs cheerleader and bring me food and snacks while I enjoy the game. Then after the game, she gets naughty and I get lots of satisfaction (if ya know what I mean). That is the kind of woman I would like to marry." K_k:  I like a man who knows how to dream big! But to find a woman like that you might have to be willing to build your body into that of a Marine fullback, dress like a male stripper, and serve her breakfast in bed, while massaging her feet.  Then after she finally decides to get up you could get on your knees in submission to your personal goddess, and cater to her every desire (if ya know what i mean).  That is the kind of man you might want to be to get the kind of woman you would like to marry. This is not my quote.. its Gmans. Reply Quote Notify 2930  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Hanaukah and Jesus' birthday...once again! on: December 08, 2010, 11:15:49 AM Quote from: SBag on December 08, 2010, 10:49:50 AM Who are the "you" your referring to as granting me any rights mbg? Maybe you should pay attention to my words sir. In short my viewpoint is one of, "By who's mandate do you claim to know what is the real truth as it pertains to these spiritual things and or that this god you profess as the one and only truth." Now to other matters. I'll say you have a 50/50 of being correct. Well at least we established that you may be 50 percent wrong and i am 50 percent rite. Of course thats better than 30 70... or maybe in your world there is no numerical value... hehe Geezzz... how hard was it for you to admit that sir? Until of course you have another temper tantrum and deny the existence of existence...   Reply Quote Notify 2931  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Our riches in Christ on: December 08, 2010, 11:01:34 AM We live in the kingdom of Christ. He rules the earth by the word of His power. There is nothing that happens in time from the beginning of time to the final hour that has not been thought about and decided outside in the counsel of God from all eternity. We live in the bubble of Christ protection. All of these physical adversities we see in our world are insignificant oppositions to all that we hold dear.  The world system has its own dictionary of truth. All of these principles of Satans kingdom are without real power. This is why our resistance to all of the things of this world are part of the flow of Gods power over all the circumstances we face in this world. We must fight in order to obtain. But we cannot fight a good fight if we do not hit the mark. We must learn how to fight. So we take up spiritual weapons in order to take captive every principle that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. The power is not in us but the power is in the means. The power flows through us from the God behind the means. We resist by the word of His power. Our lives are separated from this world by being identified with generations who have resisted to death. We worship a God who has been taught from one generation to another from the beginning of time. We look back and conclude that God did wondrous works without the help of man because they also resisted by the use of the means. So we conclude that God alone rules from one generation to another as who He is in His knowledge ... wisdom... understanding etc as the basis for knowing that He has everything in this world under His control. This is the basis for our confidence in His love .. kindness... and faithfulness because we are in a family where we have a Father who has order the events in this world as existing through all generations. This is why we belong to a family where we experience things that are too wonderful for us to imagine. Because of Gods eternal existence... His understanding based upon His being present from the beginning of time then we are invited to feast at this eternal table. We eat the food that comes down from on high. We have a confidence because we experience the promises of a Father who is eternally loving ... all wise.. all knowing and faithful so that we have a continuous invite to this feast 24 7. When we feast at His table we go from one glory to another. We actually rise to worship our Father in Heaven as He is seated on His throne and in drawing near we see His footprints going before us. For He cast His sandals on where ever we walk on this earth. We have the ability to live above this world in our inner experience while we are in this world. We can taste, see, touch, and hear the good things that God prepares for us in this great feast where we dine night and day. God gives us Himself. Reply Quote Notify 2932  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Hanaukah and Jesus' birthday...once again! on: December 08, 2010, 10:30:29 AM Quote from: SBag on December 08, 2010, 10:13:00 AM Well mbg we wouldn't want you insinuating I've got brain matter in between my ears. That stuff is gray isn't it..... I think along the lines of what one may think of as a truth with all thier might is possibly a figment of thier imagination. So how much weight in this gray area of yours grants me the possibility as opposed to the impossibility....since you are such a good mind reader and sound so sure my experience is not true.. now i am confused... at least we grant you the rite to write on this forum ...you owe everyone the courtesy of consideration that they might be right ... and i might add.. i am dogmatic about right and wrong...and think what your are saying sir.. is pure evil and devilish. Reply Quote Notify 2933  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace = Power to Do the Law on: December 08, 2010, 10:17:42 AM Quote from: Joker on December 08, 2010, 08:28:03 AM So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.  For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. -Romans 7:21-23 NIV And if we're honest, we'll admit that this is as true for us as it is for Paul.  So then, what do we conclude?  I don't have a problem with fighting the law of sin within us, but to say that God gives us the power to do the Law and then admit that we are still prisoners of sin is to say either that God was stingy with the grace or just not powerful enough to truly set us free the law of sin that rules this world.  That is a mystery - the spirit and life of Christ living in us, yet we still sin. Joker... my problem here is "God giving us the ability to perform good works." I do not think this is an honest assessment we come to at the end of the day. Any time we present a system where we borrow something from God we actually accumulate debt as a sorrowful return. There is no one who can have an account with God and not find himself bankrupt as the beginning of finding true riches. The apostle simply says here that he sins because he is a sinner. What is his conclusion at the end of the chapt. Whenever he wants to do good evil is present.. or his actions are tainted by sin. So in order to take himself out of the equation of the balance scale of good and evil ..the apostle considers himself powerless in order to give Christ all the praise. Heres the mystery of all of this that cannot be explained. In his mind he is a slave to Gods law but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. Now here he is saying something far greater than offering himself as a slave. He is actually saying that God rules in paul but there is a power of evil in him also in the flesh. One is greater than the other. I think he is distinguishing between his own ability and Christ ability here. Identity verses intrinsic value. In Christ he is free.. in himself there is no confidence. The life of Christ is far greater.. just like the new man is lord.. and this decreases Pauls confidence in his own ability.    Reply Quote Notify 2934  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Hanaukah and Jesus' birthday...once again! on: December 08, 2010, 09:57:53 AM Quote from: SBag on December 08, 2010, 06:10:38 AM Stevies... I like that. Thank you mbg. Makes me feel young. Just turned 55 a couple of months ago and still wondering where all that time went. I wouldn't say nothing is true. Like I really don't know if you like me or not. I could jump to a conclusion from reading your post if I wanted to. What I really think might be true is that you are more bothered by someone who makes you think about what you believe as truth maybe being ..... Well I think you would know better then me what is going on with you. I see a whole lotta gray in the world and feel deeply that I'm not up to the task of declaring truth's about things I have no idea about. For instance the existence of a god or god's, higher power, or what ever word you would use. Could be a fact or might not be a fact. Sure seems we are limited in our abilities. So I just can't see why you or any of us has any right to declare we know. I Sir... i too believe that you cannot put experience in a supernatural way into words. But that does not mean that it does not exist outside of your gray area... hehe.. i dont mean to insinuate that you have all gray in between your ears...   but we both believe that nothing is true that we can entirely explain. Although between what goes on in my inner experience and the foundations of my experience is a certainty that its not true in your mind. Your not convinced about anything being true other than my persistence from experience that super-naturalism is true. I would remind you that no one on this forum looks at the actual words you write and wants to adopt you gray area ideas of non sense into their belief system...   Reply Quote Notify 2935  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Hanaukah and Jesus' birthday...once again! on: December 07, 2010, 10:45:58 PM Kk steve has a long history here... i am not sure he is a person... although if it is about something.. .in steves world ... what or whoever it might be ... something does not exist... and sometimes stevie argues that he himself does not exist. Although i am sure in stevies world that nothing is true. And around and around we go... hehe Reply Quote Notify 2936  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins on: December 07, 2010, 09:46:15 AM Quote K_k:  Does your experience say that you are completely willing, and surrendered to Him, at all levels of your being?  Do you only do and say what our Dad wants you to do and say?  If so, that is fascinating, but not very truthful. Kk.. i dont waste my time trying to please Christ in wondering how much of my will He has or wants. I know if it were left up to me as to deciding to please Him or please myself i would want to please myself first. I believe we all have a disease ...even when we are saved ... and it is an impossible for us to have a true understanding of distinguishing our own blame with the blame on others. We always excuse ourselves and accuse others. I often hear people talk about how they did not get healed until they took full responsibility for their own sins... that rite there is a white lie. We have no hope unless we place everything in His hands and let Him determine who is guilty. Then and only then can we be used by Him to distinguish a situation. And knowing that we are just sinners doing His will. This is why there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Who can bring any charge against Gods elect? Who is he that condemns? How can this be true and yet have sinners acting in a way that has no threat of retribution? This is the million dollar question. The christian experience cannot be produced by any system of checks and balances on this earth. It is the opposite of everything we understand about society. It is a spiritual society that functions as one man.. with one mind... the unity is the identity. The expression of individualism ... or the lack of understanding about grace is the dissenting word.     Reply Quote Notify 2937  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Grace = Power to Do the Law on: December 07, 2010, 09:24:21 AM Quote from: Joker on December 06, 2010, 06:09:29 AM Quote from: Great to be His Through my study of scripture over the last so many years, I came to the understanding that the Old Testament believers were saved by the same grace through Christ that we are today. Their "belief" or faith was credited to them as righteousness, because they believed God was going to send Jesus   Becky, let's be careful not to project our own Christian theology back on the Jewish nation; that would be historically inaccurate.   The concept of a Messiah was not developed until the Exile prophets (e.g. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Zechariah), and the Jewish understanding of Messiah is a Davidic conquering king, not an atoning sacrifice.  (Which is why they didn't recognize Jesus as Messiah when he did come.)  The object of the OT saints' faith was God (the Person of the Trinity we would call "the Father").    They trusted God, His covenant righteousness and his loving-kindness, and that faith was expressed through the sacrifices and other acts of covenant obedience. Now, if you said you believe God applies Christ's blood and righteousness to the OT saints' account because they trusted God, period, exclamation point,  I wouldn't disagree. I believe they understood the gospel in the ot from Adam and Eve... and it was passed down from one generation to another by word of mouth. They understood that God intervened on their behalf as a Savior and a King. And although they were taught the atonement for sin required a blood sacrifice , yet they did not trust in the animal to take away their sins but they were looking to a sacrifice from a Savior who would come to deliver them from sin and oppression. There is no way that we can excuse them of not being responsible for understanding distinguishing the thing from the person. That was a violation of the first commandment about having no other gods. This is why you have this message throughout the ot that described the kind of faith talked about that the ot saints possessed... in the nt. They understood the difference between faith and works. They understood that their own righteousness before God was as filthy rags. Abraham considered himself wicked that he might be justified by faith and not by the works of the law. Although they went through the rituals they were taught not to trust in them but to trust in the coming Messiah who would deliver them from their sins and oppression. The blood sacrifices had the element of a kind of Vampire quality. They realized that the curses of the law were real. This was because God cursed the generation who were covenant breakers.These curses were actually physical ailments and they were like leprosy in the kind of sorrows they would bring to the wicked. The animal that was sacrificed represented the freedom from the curses of the law. I do not think we can entirely focus on the animal as a blood sacrifice for sin. Because they did not trust in their sins being forgiven every day upon the offering of the animal. They understood that sin was a spiritual problem and there was only one way they could have peace with God and it was through a Savior. The practical outworking of the animal sacrifice was they identified as Gods chosen people who were protected from the curses of the wicked nations. It was an identity as a chosen people and a separation from the other nations. It was a recognition that God was their King and He would fight their battles.    Reply Quote Notify 2938  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Modern women and marriage on: December 06, 2010, 05:22:02 PM After being married for quite some time and i talk to other people about their marriages plus i like to read the papers....i may be able to shed a little lite. Although i do not think people get married for the rite reasons... i do not think it is possible to understand marriage until you are married. Nor do i think marriage is a give and take situation. Marriage is a life...it is were sanity is practiced. Marriage is not just about love... it is protection. Most people look for marriage to be a kind of romantic novel. They look for the emotional support and they look for a response from the other partner that they are the most important person on the earth. But for whatever reason two people get married there really is only one thing that matters. It is very very important... it is vital... it is the life of the marriage. With out this one thing there is no marriage. It is faithfulness. Faithfulness is reason. There are not other reasons in marriage to think there is a way out of the marriage. Because marriage is like salvation. Your identity determines your success. There are so many different kinds of chemistry in marriage that it is the ultimate situation ethic. Thats why people promise through anything that they will remain faithful. Because marriage starts with the hand you are dealt with. For what ever reason a person remains single... whether there is a positive lite they can shed on the value of singleness or  a negative reason they stayed single.. in marriage the other person is your reason. What ever you do to yourself you do to your partner.. whatever you think about your self you think about the other partner. The other partner is a mirror to your reactions.  This is why marriage fluctuates over a life time. It is like a separate life. Your reality is no longer just one persons reality. You live in a kind of fluid life. There is no such thing as the death of a marriage. Every reason for killing a marriage has a remedy. So that marriage could be so fulfilling in a ten yr span and through whatever circumstance .. physical ... spiritual ... then turn on you and it could be the reason that you do not get what you want for yourself in life. Marriage is both a success story or simply a  protection from yourself. This is why marriage is a covenant between two parties ... because God has made a covenant with a believer that cannot be broken.. ... not by sin... a period of hardness and departure from Him... or a  weakness in which you feel there is no strength to go on. God always remains faithful.. His love never fails. Marriage is a reflection of the inward life of a believer.     Reply Quote Notify 2939  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Pet sins on: December 04, 2010, 12:27:54 PM K_k:  So our "pet sins" are just those we have not yet fully surrendered to Christ.  But He doesn't give up easily.... The bible doesnt say that a christian is one who is unwilling to surrender to Christ on some level. What is Gods will for a believer? That we might glorify God by enjoying Him. Now some people force a kind of repentance that comes from a real break in fellowship with God. For instance there are few Psalms set apart from the natural flow of the rest of the psalms that seem to suggest silence toward God is the reason for God to be displeased enough to withhold forgiveness. Then they will say that forgiveness is only found when there is confession. But you cannot take one verse that stands alone and contradict other verses that teach something else. These Psalms cannot be taken out of the context of the human struggle with sin as men experience guilt shame and sorrow with a doctrinal application in a verse by verse comparison with the intent of proving the doctrine by the one verse. These Psalms are not written to show us how to get something from God. God does not need us to do something to get our needs met. But these Psalms are prayers to God for our own good. God does not need our prayers in order to do something. He has already decreed everything that comes into time. He has already set the perimeters on what evil we are going to chose so that we cannot go beyond what He has decreed. Kk says God gives us choices. But if God gives us one choice then God allows us to chose every time.Its the same thing as saying God chooses us to chose each time. So that God does not need our prayers.. our confession.. our sorrow.. or our guilt .. shame...etc to make God more real or less available than He is. Thats the standard of Calvinism. The reason we have a description of the Psalmist is for us. Its for us as human beings to be honest before God. In a sense it is focused on us in a good way. The bible focuses on God because it is a history of redemption. Every event in the bible has a single purpose. It is not a book of moral stories to prove that good or evil will come on us if we do these things the characters did or did not do. It is showing that God works through sinful men to accomplish His purposes. It is realistic and not a fairy tail of Gods powers sprinkled over mans choices as a response to mans good intentions. God is always God and man is always man. In the 20th century we have developed a system that forces God into responding to mans system. In other words we may see a moral consequence in the bible but we ignore the single purposes of God. Man is forever redefining God so that mans system begins to be a way to God. In this day we say that a book written by a man is as important as to find a need met in man as if it was speaking for God ... the book contains God like a magic trick. Read the book and you will be transformed. Do our program and we will transform your life. This is why we must not use the scripture for our own pet issue. But we must let the text to speak in its original intent in the near context and the far.