Sunday, November 8, 2015

3166  Forums / Main Forum / Re: compassion? on: August 05, 2010, 03:33:45 PM
evahs the question is not whether God is responsible for all of the suffering of this earth... the question is ... why did God not destroy everything when man... Adam ... rebelled against a clear warning of God to not eat of the tree that represented mans own departed understanding of reality.
If God is equal to our own understanding of good and evil then He cannot be a real God! God must be the highest moral example of all of the beings in this universe. He must be exalted above the rational of the kinds of punishment we see enacted on our fellow man... for the wrongs they commit. God must be so holy that one little defect is the ultimate slap in His face. You can think of it like this... God dwells in un- approachable light. That light is so bright that it would eliminate anything that got close to it. Well ... one little defect is like a speck of dark in a vast brightness that we could not fathom. God cannot endure this because it is a place where the light of His glory is darkened. Gods glory is His power manifested as the ultimate beauty and goodness in a space. He must eliminate that dark spec.
Gods glory shines over the whole universe and into eternity. That is beyond our understanding. Think of the most satisfied and happy time of your life and that would not even come close to the amount of pleasure and satisfaction in the glory of God. I call this being consumed by the power of the pleasure of God as He is all glorious. One little spec of the light of the power of the pleasure of the glory of God would dissipate the whole of mankind from the beginning of time to the end.

 This means that one little defective spec represents a sorrow and a pain that God cannot endure. Because God must be God in every space in eternity. Now you see why God is good ... because this all glorious being is patient and did not eliminate the spec of corruption when Adam sinned. But instead God provided Himself in Christ to take the punishment and the legal declaration against men and put it on the perfect man. This man who is the glory of God. The most valuable relationship with the Father. Our Father sent His only Son who is all glorious... to die like a man... on a cross so that the glory of God was hanging on that cross ... so that the light of the glory of God could shine in our face. Imagine that... God is pleased to make us like His Son so that we would experience this unfathomable pleasure through all eternity.    
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3167  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: August 05, 2010, 02:22:11 PM

I agree with much of that, mbG.  But you didn't address the central question(s) i was referring to.  I'll reword it.

Did our Creator (Dad) foreknow, and predestine, billions of people to unending conscious torture?  Did He create them as immortal so they could suffer for an unlimited period of time?

Or did He create children who are completely mortal apart from the only Source of unending Life, Jesus Christ?  And gives them the opportunity to have an eternal union with Him, but yet allows them the option to choose Judgment and the Second Death rather than exist forever as tortured beings?

I would suspect your loyalty to calvinism overrides the plain wording of Scripture.  I would be glad to be wrong.
The evil domination that men must endure in this life is caused by the evil thoughts of men. About 3 weeks ago there was an event in Germany in which there were hundreds of people that crowded this small area under an over pass. And area with no opening on three sides. The more that the people pushed from the outside to the inside the force of that many people crushed the ones in this middle. They were literally crushed to death.
And this is the way evil permeates society. It starts from the mind of evil men who devise schemes against their fellow man. Then they perpetrate these evil schemes on the innocent and the helpless. Not only do men cause these evils that crush other men.. but they devise more evil on top of the first scheme. This is why we can measure the economic impact on people as if we were in the middle of that crowd being crushed by these evil forces. The bible calls this waxing cold.

God must punish evil men or this world would be filled with mass murders. We are beginning to see all of these practices over the history of our country permeate into a force that is unbearable. We are witnessing corruption that is out of control. More and more we are seeing this hatred expressed in these multiple shootings in the work place. Unless God brings about a just recompense then there would be no hope for the widow and the orphan. It is not God like to overlook their plight by ignoring Gods just recompense for all eternity.   
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3168  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Karma is Bad on: August 05, 2010, 01:57:14 PM
This is not an impersonal world so that we communicate from a principled cause in between two people. We are not the final cause of the events in this world. That is determinism. Which is a philosophy taken from Hinduism and Americanized into eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. Or do good in your life and you will be rewarded before you die.

 Christians even attach this philosophy to there free expression. But the truth is we are already receiving punishment for actions done by someone else. Its the process of a slow physical degeneration that is over taken by death. We do not need karma ... we need salvation! This is a universe that is most personal when we reason that there is no hope of good outside of Christ. Because God has declared by oath that every man is cursed from his birth because of Adams sin. Instead of paying for our own sins in this life we are represented as if we sinned in another life. Sin was imputed to the whole human race as a result of this one mans sin. Thats not karma but that a just declaration from a personal God.
God determines the good and the evil that falls upon man. He lifts one up and he brings one down. God speaks and it becomes the reality in every persons life. No man can make a choice outside of Gods choices. They can only choose what God determines. Because the universe is personal.
Every man has a father. Not just an earthly father but a ruling father. Those who are outside of Christ have Satan as their father... those who are adopted into the family have God as their Father. Thats why every man does his own fathers bidding. The universe is a personal one.

If God determines everything that comes to pass then we view everything in this world as necessary because there are personal reasons. Without necessity there is no personal reason. Everything necessarily exist for the glory of God. Everything comes into reality for the glory and pleasure of God. If we could understand most of the reasons for the events in this world then we are like God. This is foolishness.  
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3169  Forums / Theology Forum / Reformed Theology and the natural longings of the heart on: August 05, 2010, 11:23:10 AM
Ive wanted to start a thread that deals with the application of Gods sovereignty and at the same time applying as a natural drawing effect in the human soul. For too long we have been overly concerned to provide the truth in an intellectual motif without the applied remedy as a true reformed experience. These different kinds of approaches as i have experienced them in my life have been presented from the view of a  traveling salesman. But i believe the message is for the restless heart. Because as Austin said that man is restless until he finds all of his rest in God. This is the only true art form for the pleasure of man in the presentation of the gospel. Because the gospel is the reality of the natural longings of the heart being subdued by the greatness of Gods pleasure as it is present as the only experienced love letter to mankind. Gods saving love is His protection of the soul from itself to experience the destructive powers of this world. It should be presented in light of Gods powerful effects as being too attractive for the fence sitter. Whether the gospels effects save a man, it should be taught as  the only remedy to the unconverted as if they enjoyed its effects in the presentation. There are a few inconsistencies that i would like to explore in having experienced these different presentations.   
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3170  Forums / Key Life Forum / Whoops i screwed up... on: August 05, 2010, 11:01:30 AM
Had the thread in the wrong section... oh well... go ahead and continue on the woops i screwed up theme
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3171  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 05, 2010, 10:21:26 AM
Quote
If you'd like to clarify just what it is that makes some people respond more so than others.....I'm all eyes!! :  )) 


Quote
Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart,  having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

It's those who have honest and good hearts (who then end up keeping His Word) ...according to the Son of God..."that makes some people respond more so than others".

Thor Smiley 

It can't be measure or forseen. it has to be played out.

If you understand this concept of goodness you will find that God is the only one that is good. Goodness is Gods grace and kindness extended to man in  His tender mercy and long suffering patience, and His eternal love and faithfulness that is displayed in His covenant child. God is also good in that He protects the helpless, fatherless, and widows of this world by coming to their aid in His divine providence. This is why Gods kingdom is a kingdom that is within. His kingdom does not fail to provide sustenance according to His promises.
The natural man is dominating and self serving. This man practices treachery without excuse. He does not know the ways of God. This is why Gods acceptance is His gift of grace to man as the basis for the establishment of this covenant relationship. Because Gods covenant people have a natural longing to be taught Gods ways. They understand that Gods truth is the measurement of all other truth. They accept that they cannot think a thought on their own if they are to love His truth. Their only way of salvation is through Christ. The reason that Gods covenant people are good is because they are walking on this road.

This is why they are honest and good. 
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3172  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Do you recognize God's discipline in your life? on: August 04, 2010, 04:13:27 PM
I understand addiction to porn first hand, so to speak.  And i have learned to put my masturbation problem in God's hands....

Well, OK, not good humor, but very good freedom!

A tad more seriously, i well know the burden of guilt and shame that goes along with porn.  And i know how after decades the voice of conscience gets fairly dull but never quite goes away.

When you are ready, the Spirit will begin to show you the subtle impacts that porn have on your spiritual state.  Not just to shame you but to help you see the bondage more clearly for what it is, and to give you a hope that you can actually be free one day.  I know it seems impossible that a man could live without the sexual release we grow accustomed to, but it's real and it's available, when we want Him more than our bodily satisfaction.

One thing i had to cling onto was that "in Christ there is no condemnation".  Our Dad knows what boys do, and that doesn't stop Him from loving us.  Nor does it stop Him from trying to reach us with the love we are missing.  He doesn't want to crush us with guilt but eliminate another source of distancing ourselves from Him in our shame.

Have you considered the impact porn has on the women and supporting people who make that porn?  Have you considered the physical, mental, spiritual energy that is expended, wasted on the habit?  Not from an "i'm so evil, i'll never be any better" point of view, but from a more compassionate understanding that we get ourselves into slavery, and that very slavery will work to glorify God as He parts our "Red Sea" (or "red see").

Then we get to carry the good news of His grace to sinners who are like a part of us.  SImilar to what Stevie B. says about we Believers are just "one beggar telling another beggar where to find Bread".  I'm sure you know the Bread of Life, right?

Kk... i must say this is appalling here. I think you need Viagra to stimulate a sense of balance with your authoritative self proclamation. Jesus hung out with the pornographers of His day. He did not shun anyone because of their life style. The people that He really got Him hopping mad were the self proclaimed sinless people who paraded their abstinence before men. Of which i do not believe unless you are taking some kind of  drug or your too old to care. The best thing for you Kk is a good struggle with porn.
Jesus loved sinners because they had a sense of helplessness. They had no were else to go. And they were more concerned for other people than their own struggles. The most giving people are broken people my friend. And dont tell me about being broken. You have not struggle with mental pain. Listen to me... most people are really messed up. Oh they put on a religious front in that setting but this world is a world of pain.

I would tell you... please dont trade in your struggle for an addiction to self righteousness. This world has become a crazy place.

Let me say this... some sins are from weakness and some are things we do not consider more heinous before a holy God. We are always going to struggle with sin as long as we are in this bodies. The bible does not say that we will be sinless or close to sinless on this earth. I believe that God disciplines because He loves us. And this discipline is His loving communication to us in our struggles. People who have very little struggles do not know this as real truth. But we must be thrown into the fire to be able to learn things about ourselves ... i mean without being utterly crushed to the point where we are always facing the depression that we cannot go on.
Most of my best memories is struggling with sin. Because it kept me from exalting myself. The worse problem in this world is for us to struggle with something that gives us a sense of worth to other people. Its not compared to sin because we experience the sorrow over sin... but our self confidence is like lust. That is deceptive. The apostle was given a thorn... or a pain ... a continuous pain like being pricked by a thorn... in order to keep him from exalting himself. The apostle was a tough man... he was very rugged and received pain so that it came out in a most honest way in the epistles.
When we struggle with sin we always want to get something that will help us get out of the sin. This is a natural desire. But there is only one way to overcome sin... because we can deceive ourselves in quitting something and then we get relief. Did you know that we think all the time that a lack of trouble in this world is a good thing? But there is no such thing as a lack of trouble... its just around the corner. The truth is there really is no time where we rest and say... i overcame my sins and now i have become acceptable. Or i went through this program and now i do not have a problem with sin. Because sin is not an action first of all... sin does not stop at being accountable in the victory over the action... sin is in our members. The point of sins is to point to sin.

 That means that sins make us feel sin. That is the roller coaster ride to heaven. I think therefore i am. I think i am not a sinner but the sins make me think twice. I have hidden sin in my members that make me what i am in my sins. I cannot... listen to me... i cannot not sin.Why is this important? Because it points to the fact that i am helpless without Gods love. It makes me say... not unto us oh Lord not unto us but to Your name be the glory... because of your love and faithfulness. I do not need to sin because i am loved more than i sin. I am accepted as a sinner. No one is better at this ... all of us are the same. Oh we may sin less.. or we may practice sins that do not have bad natural consequences but we still sin. And we do not need to sin.
We are always able to stop sinning. We can sin and get up ... be forever forgiven and not sin again. This is why we know how to be discipline. Dont let anyone tell you that Christ alone is not able to bring you through your trial.He will keep you from sin. You may struggle with a sin for a while but that is going to be overcome because Christ will stop you. If you get some kind of other help .. just remember that it is a temptation more than a redeeming thing.Cause when your alone your still the same person no matter how many people are trying to change you.       
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3173  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 04, 2010, 03:33:07 PM
You need to ask yourself... is my faith in my struggle or is it all looking at the person of Christ? How is my faith defined? Do i long to see Christ? Is Christ more than a principle of right and wrong... weak or strong...giving up something to obtain obtain something? Is Christ your God or is He your God ...if? Have you gone farther in knowing Christ than making deals?
Your love for Christ does not keep you from sin, sorrow,temptation, and failure. It does not keep you from having a sense of control of your life. But in knowing this Person... you are able to distinguish a fake Christ. You know when you make a god. Because Christ cannot be loved by you if you love other gods. This is why Christ must be more than a description from a principle. You must be willing to accept Christ by His word alone or you will only know an idea of Christ. The question is... do you seek Christ for Christ alone?
In seeking Christ we know our own tendencies to trust in something that is like Christ. This is why we seek Christ ... because unless we find Christ then we know it is not Christ. Because Christ dwells in our hearts by faith! This means that Christ speaks to our hearts and we know His voice. Because we are naturally led away from Christ in our hearts we must go beyond our own sorrow about ourselves that we find comfort in an image of our religious self. We must see that Christ is set apart from all other images. This is seeking Christ for Christ alone. We are seeking  the face of Christ who is the glory of God. Have you sought Christ beyond the image of the face of man? Has Christ actually become a real person who lives in you and who acts upon you in responding to all your communication as another person? Have you seen Christ who hates other images of Himself? 
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3174  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 04, 2010, 12:40:16 PM
K_k:  God awakens the spirit in man gradually (unless we suppress that) until we can believe in Christ enough to ask sincerely for Him to save us, inside out.  The saving faith isn't "bestowed" in one lump sum, but is rather carefully developed and matured by God until we are ready.  We are allowed to choose to cooperate or not, by His grace, not subjected to His domination.

WOW!  "Until we can believe in Christ "enough"?? How much is enough KK?? I have routinely been entertained by free willers like yourself who "debate amongst themselves" (argue even) about "how much" faith it takes to muster just the right exact amount to be saved!!  No amount of any faith "you have" can save yourself.  This "process" you mention is really the process of bringing unbelievers to a "point" at which God determines when HE saves them.  People are either on a journey being "spiritually" guided to God, or they just appear interested (like as in baseball or world religions) but are not saved yet but yet later could be...or not  God can take His time if He wants....or make it more instantaneous....we see both happening in Scripture as do we around us experiencially.   Man is "always" subject to God's domination.....to reject this is heretical.  Sorry KK.  

The salvation experience is not packaged in mans efforts or resistant abilities. God saves man apart from a necessary instrument. Yes we carry the word but God must mix it with the gift of faith and the calling of God by the Spirit. So we say that the evidence of the work of the Spirit is a secret work... it may be done as if a plane was gliding in the air and then the motor is turned on. No big fanfare. Not much repenting effort by man... not  much initial experiential effects of salvation. In fact it may be that a man is surprised. But if Kk thinks his way of force is actually allowing man more freedom it is doing the opposite. Because in focusing on man... he is focusing on the acts that man performs in order to be saved. In placing a premium on mans response instead of Gods work ...Kk is placing a straight jacket on the evidence in the salvation of man. We actually provide more freedom for God to work ... and it gives man more available time and freedom to respond as an individual. 
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3175  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 1. - THE BENEFITS OF CHRIST MADE… JOHN CALVIN on: August 04, 2010, 12:12:16 PM
Amen MBG!!  I am always humbled at the spirit of Adoration to God these men made to stand up to the "Heresy" of their day....and establish awesome "faith and reason" which lifts God High as He should be!!  Very few people who don't consider themselves "Calvinists"....could read from a majority of what he wrote, and be blessed by it.  Calvin was only one of many many Reformers who gave his life to the cause of a GOD centered Gospel.....and look around at what has replaced it.....today's "Man Centered" pop theology.   Most people don't really want a God centered theology today....and the churches are all to anxious to "provide" what brings them in".  Can I have some more water with that Gospel???    cool cool  

In the long run this stuff does not work. The old saying is there is nothing new under the sun. Most of the false teaching of our day is from an old heresy that has been repackaged with the extra baggage of modern science. Although modern science has its place it is not there to put a stop to reformation.
We must see that if we do it Gods way then everything will be put in its proper place in this world. Gods ways are always the ancient ways... because God has His way and then there are other ways that men create. Because men create idols in place of God.
God has worked mighty wonders in the past. He did it in the presence of His elect. These events have been written down for our learning and edification. The reason that God had the elect write them down was so that God would show man that He alone would get the glory because His ways of communication to man is that God alone does the wondrous work of salvation and redemption. But men love idols more than God. So that they want to redefine historical reformation. Men want the glory that only God deserves. Men will not bow down and worship a God who alone does wonders. If we want to reform to the ancient ways we must worship God as He is to be worshiped. We must give God all the glory for our salvation. For He alone does wondrous things!  
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3176  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 03, 2010, 02:05:23 PM
Kk... i dont mean to make you feel inferior... i know its hard when two people are talking at you. But I am glad STP has been writing... i have enjoyed you alls natural apologetic personality engagement.
But i do not look at any of the teaching of scripture as if it was a manual to try and prove a point. Rather its always a clear reasoning. I like to think of it as a clear set of doctrines that give us boundaries of thinking. I mean thinking of inward action. I believe the bible is something that acts upon our souls. Its called transformation. So there is a way to approach these things outside of the how to or the one step to 20 steps. Its a matter of reasoning with someone and then resting in Christ message.

I also believe that God has made us and He acts directly upon us without our understanding or our reaction to His word. This is why the Bible is a book that is like a cord that cannot be broken. One doctrine is the meaning of all of the other doctrines. It can be compared to when we go into the work place and we have a natural connection to a person of like faith. That invisible connection is always there but it is a christian supernatural action upon us. got to go
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3177  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 03, 2010, 12:52:28 PM
Let me try to unconfused MBG. Romans 7 precedes Romans 8. The solution to Paul's dilemma is in chapter 8 (and 6...actually)

Rom 8:1   There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Yes, Paul says submit to the Holy Spirit to follow Him not the flesh.  And (believers) must kill the  deeds of the body,...in order to live.  Note the big “if” in vs 13


Even before Romans 7 Paul says we must not let sin reign in our mortal bodies. Note: Paul says it's our responsibility to not let it reign! Vs 12

Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14   For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

MBG sin shall not have dominion over you but you must choose to follow the Spirit...yes it's your choice...nobody else can do it for you. You have God in you to help you follow Him but it's your choice how much you will trust Him and tap into that power through faith.  

Is it hard to believe scripture when Reform Theology says you are automatically saved no matter what...Jesus and Paul say otherwise.

Thor Smiley

This is not a clear choice here. The apostle did not proof text the message. Rather he established in 6 th chapt that we already died to sin. We do not kill sin by your free choice repentance. He is saying that because we were identified with Christ in His death and raised with Him in new life we no longer are the slaves to sin.  What does a slave do when he has done something wrong? He receives the just consequences for his sin. When a slave does wrong he gets punished... when he does rite he must do more.
A slave is under the condemning power of the law. He must be threatened and punished in order to meet the requirements. A slave has an equal choice between living according to principle and living in rebellion. That means that the law is his school master.
We are slaves in this sense. We are given a new will... the apostle says that we died to sin. We now have the will of God. We want to do Gods will. We are dead to the law in the sense that we no longer have the old slave mentality to the law. That was the former way of living. The former way of slavery was to be threatened and forced to do our deeds in the dark. We were in darkness and only obeyed out of fear. But now we have been freed from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit. This is our obligation to obey the gospel.
We obey the gospel by a view like the apostle talks about all the time. We are eternally secure in our new life. We look at this conflict as if we were looking at a potential. Kind of impersonal. Those who live by the flesh will die by the flesh. This is like a general understanding we have of how this world is. The apostle is not balancing our identity with a warning. In a way we are reminded by this of what we used to be like.  
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3178  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 03, 2010, 12:06:13 PM
"The Prodigal God" by Tim Keller and the teaching of Steve Brown remind that Christianity is one in which the big thing is the radical nature of the relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.  That God love is radical in nature he loves just as much we stumble and fall.  The falling can be when we spend more than we earn.

He loves us also when we are into religion versus a God that saves definitely on the basis of deeds we have done in righteousness.


So want's his actual point? ...Jesus doesn't care if we disobey Him and led sinful lives like the pagans; or, that we can trust God to forgive us when we turn back to Him with a contrite heart? When we turn back then God will forgive us and restore us to fellowship at that very moment...but certainly won't abide a haughty and hard heart., even from a believer (many in that day will say...Lord, Lord)

Why does someone have to write another book to explain what is already there in the Bible and easy to read?  All a believer needs to do is open his/her Bible and read and believe God's Word at face value to Walk with God.

Not living a Christian lifestyle of reading and studying God's Word like Jesus told us to do, sets us up for a defeated life that's more down than up;  a roller coaster ride from one high emotional point to a low emotional point.  Jesus wants us to live our life trusting in His Word, not gauging our walk by how we feel today. If I'm down then God doesn't love me...if I'm up then God loves me. If  sin dominates our life something is wrong and it's usually a heart hardened by sin. Confession works wonders.

We all need to take a spiritual attitude check once in a while to see where we're at.

Thor Smiley

Let me confuse Thor a little... i know his mo.... First the christian experience is not defined by our sin. Look at the 7 th chapt of Romans where the Apostle says that what He wants to do He does not do.. and what he does not want to do that he does. Is the apostle saying there is something good in him but he always does the sin? Or he saying that when he sins it shows that the apostle is a sinner? Or is the apostle making a proper confession according to lord Thor? If the apostle is saying that he never gets it rite... he always fails... then there are no steps to acceptance of Gods forgiveness. Because the confession itself is something that the apostle fails at. This is why he reasons that sin resides in him. He says that ugly thing is in me. According to Thor this is not a genuine confession.But according to the apostle ... he is defining the extent of his sin so he can reason that sin no longer is the issue because there are no steps to forgiveness... he says in the same reasoning that Christ saves the apostle from himself. Then the apostle  has the audacity to say there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
A man who has a very shallow view of sin will think of a list first that satisfies God. Why do men think of the sin list? Because they want to have a conscience that does not condemn them. Because they want to keep a record so that they can look at themselves and say i struggled to the best of my ability. I kept myself from the sins i was troubled about.  But the apostle goes much farther than this. The apostle says that every time he wants to do good ... sin is rite there with him. Does he mean that he sins less because he recognizes it? No because he does not say that in knowing about sin it helps him sin less. He thanks Christ that there is no longer any condemnation for his sin. The apostle reasons rite about his sinful state so that He can understand who Christ is.  
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3179  Forums / Current Events / Re: Not Wild Kingdom on: August 03, 2010, 10:35:41 AM
\
Yellow Submarine Finds River at the Bottom of the Sea

 Theunis Bates Contributor
AOL News
LONDON (Aug. 2) -- It sounds like the plot of a forgotten Beatles movie: A team of scientists sends a yellow submarine to the bottom of the sea and finds a meandering underwater river -- complete with waterfalls and rapids -- flowing along the ocean floor.

That may seem far-out, but it's exactly what a group of researchers from England's University of Leeds, Canada's Memorial University and Turkey's Institute of Marine Science discovered when they carried out a detailed study of a puzzling 37-mile-long channel at the bottom of the Black Sea.

The existence of these underwater rivers -- or submarine channels -- has been suspected since the 1970s, when advances in sonar technology allowed scientists to produce detailed 3-D maps of the ocean floor. Unlike ocean trenches, which are geological formations made by the movements of tectonic plates, submarine channels are created when water loaded with salt or sediment washes along and erodes the seabed. Until now, though, exactly how this dense water moves along these channels has been something of a mystery.

To find out more about what's going on under the waves, Dan Parsons, a research fellow at Leeds' School of Earth and Environment, and his international colleagues sent a (bright yellow) robot sub down to the bottom of the Black Sea to carry out the first in-depth examination of a submarine channel. Equipped with an underwater speed camera, a gadget that measures water density and a sonar system, the sub examined the workings of the river, which is 3,170 feet wide in places and has banks up to 82 feet high. The research will be published in an upcoming issue of the journal Geology.

The scientists found that the channel is filled with fast-moving salty water spilling from the Mediterranean into the less salty Black Sea at the two bodies' meeting point: the Bosphorus Strait. "The Mediterranean-derived water flows as a result of gravity, acting on the density difference that's produced by higher concentrations of salt," Parsons told AOL News. "It's essentially the same process that takes place when you pour bubble bath into water and it sinks and flows along the bottom of the tub toward the plug hole."

Except the Black Sea is a very big bathtub: Some 22,000 cubic meters of water pass through the submarine channel every second. That's 350 times more than the flow of England's Thames, or roughly that of the Missouri River where it flows into the Mississippi. This torrent moves along at around four miles per hour for some 37 miles, then it hits the edge of the sea shelf and dissipates into the depths.

Parsons says that this channel -- which, if located on land, would be the world's sixth largest river based on the amount of water flowing through it -- would likely have started to form at the end of the last ice age some 8,000 years ago. As melting glaciers pushed global sea levels close to their current high point, the Mediterranean would have breached through the Bosphorus -- then a thin strip of dry land -- and splashed into the Black Sea. (Which at the time was just an isolated freshwater lake.)

Much larger submarine channels exist elsewhere in the world wherever great rivers flow into the sea. Close to the spot where the Amazon opens into the Atlantic, for example, you'll find a 2,500-mile riverbed that used to carry nutrient-rich sediment out to the barren abyssal plain. But Parsons notes that dense water stopped flowing along those channels when "sea levels came up after the end of the last ice age and the mouths of rivers like the Amazon moved away from the continental shelf. So there's now a disconnect between where the river mouth is and the start of the submarine channel."

By studying the much smaller Black Sea channel -- the last known active undersea river -- Parsons and his colleagues have been able to find out how these dead (or perhaps just resting) rivers formed and distributed sediment across the underwater flood plain.

"Many people have previously assumed that this process works just like it does on land," says Parsons. "But it doesn't. When water on land moves around a river bend, we see that it has a corkscrew flow to it. That's because the water near the surface faces less resistance and so travels in a straight line that causes it to collide with the riverbank. Water closer to the bed, though, moves slower and turns more with the winding river path."

But at the bottom of the sea, where density drives movement, water spirals in the opposite direction -- meaning the heavier H2O at the bottom of the channel travels faster and crashes into bends, while the stuff on top weaves with the river. That leads to sediment being laid down in a radically different pattern to what happens up here on drier ground.

This greater understanding of underwater flows, and how detritus layers up over the centuries, is certain to help oil and gas firms hunting for hydrocarbons under dead submarine channels. Because by being able to better predict what sub-sea strata they're likely to encounter, the firms will be able to locate the easiest spot to drill -- an important bit of knowledge, as individual wells can cost more than $100 million.

Now that is interesting... the water flow and turbulence in the deep is the opposite to the surface. Ponder that.
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3180  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Radical Nature of the Gospel on: August 03, 2010, 09:15:27 AM
Yes we are taught that God loves us more than we know. That means that God s grace... or His kindness and goodness towards us is manifested on a daily basis by His covenant promises. He told Israel after they had become a society of treachery that all they needed to do was to ask and God would have provided. God did not even say... "Pull up your boot straps. " Because we know that men in their natural state do not think and desire covenant blessings that are out of the good deeds of God. But we know that God described His remnant people as His works of goodness in the world. It wasnt even their works they performed but God owned them as His own works.
This is why those who know God will take up His name. So they say.. "We come in the Name of the Lord." How can men have such confidence and not sound like they are full of hot air? Because they understand that God does the works in them. If Gods power is shown it must be through the visible instruments as a definition of Gods using them for His glory. If God is God of the causes He must be the same God of the means... and He must be the same God of the ends. If God is that same God then this is all tied to His covenant love. When He displays His goodness ...i mean not only men but things also.....it is really His goodness through these mysterious objects of corruption. This is radical if you ponder it.
3181  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 03, 2010, 08:33:57 AM
After reading the exchange here STP is rite.... let me add something here as a side note. God only has one will. If God had two wills then His purposes would be divided between His absolute sovereignty to do as He pleases and His being subjected to the will of man. I cannot accept a God that is divided. It is a weak God. My question is ... How can God be absolutely holy and yet have a determination to save man? How can God purpose to eliminate every sin and sinner from His sight because He is God and yet accept sinners and still be seen as God in His one purpose? He must only have one will!
So that God from eternity past determined the outcome of everything that transpires in this world. At the same time God is God in what transpires so that He responds appropriately as God.
God cannot be seen as a one will God if He does not entirely obtain salvation for man. We say that salvation is in God alone. This is why after the fall of man God came as a covenant keeping God. In the covenant made with Abraham God promised that He would have a people for Himself who would be holy. So God did the work Himself in order to make His elect holy. This is definitive sanctification.
At the same time God chose some men for destruction. The way He did this was He overlooked them and did not provide salvation to them. If Kk can show me any other group of people that are described in the bible... i mean the almost group...hehe. So when we look at the narrative of scripture as to hardening mens hearts... God acts as loving and hateful at the same time. On the one hand He purposed to save Israel in His covenant love...while at the same time this included hardening Pharaohs heart.
Because the world as we find it is a world of opposition to the things of God. God must subdue evil and evil men to protect His covenant people. I do not think God hates because its fun... He hates to protect. Every man deserves wrath.  This is our view of living on this earth as His children. Because we are made to be vulnerable in this world. The men of the world who oppose God asks us ... Where is your God? To which we ask God ...How long oh Lord? This is because we know by faith that God will make all things right because we know that just as God loves us with an everlasting love He does display His wrath and anger at the same time in His secret providence. And even sometimes He shows us this power ... rite before our eyes. We cannot be like Kk who avoids the whole paradigm of Gods wrath toward sinners. The same apostle who penned the love chapter in Corinthians ended the book with a statement like we do in our worship. He blessed the elect with a word of blessing and then He said this " Let everyone who does not love the Lord Jesus be accursed."  Thank you Jeffery G... didnt see tat one.
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3182  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: The incredible shrinking economy on: August 02, 2010, 10:49:30 AM
http://www.breitbart.tv/congressman-at-town-hall-the-federal-government-can-do-most-anything-in-this-country/
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3183  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: August 01, 2010, 09:24:31 AM
Practically speaking... here is Kks theory on Gods willing struggle with man...  A man walks into a 7 11 with a gun in his hand... God is behind the counter ... there are 3 people shopping... the man orders God open the cash box... God says to the man... Put the gun down... man says to God... no i will not ... man points gun and shoots the first shopper... God tells man... put the gun down ... now... man says maybe....man points gun at second shopper  and shoots..... God says... please put the gun down! Man lowers the gun and then ask... Why?

 What we are saying is God confronts man and man drops gun immediately... now thats the clear difference here....  Grin
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3184  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: July 29, 2010, 11:04:04 AM
Tom and KK,

Thanks for the kind words. I thought I might share this, my own experience of obtaining the assurance of salvation.

Back in the mid-seventies, I had been saved about a year or so and was struggling with the issure of assurance. Late one night I was studying the third chapter of Romans and came to the following:

[Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith, apart from the deeds of the law.]

It was one of those moments where the scriptures became more than words on the page but the very God of heaven speaking to me personally. I understood that God had declared me righteous, accepted me, not on the basis of works but by grace through faith in His Son. That I was His forever.

I can remember as clearly today as over thirty years ago, closing my Bible and saying a simple "Thank you Jesus".

From that point on, until now, I can truthfully say I have never doubted my salvation. Others experiences may be different, but that is mine.

Bill

 

Thanks Bill... I was discussing this with Geno before he passed on. He described himself to me as an unbeliever. Geno came to Christ much later in life than you or i and he was a type A personality. He had no feelings and was extremely determined to be successful even if he destroyed everyone in his way. He was very intelligent. But having practiced this kind of lifestyle for many yrs Geno had a very profound change. He said that God did a work in him when he was saved ...taking that type A personality and making him the most loving person. Geno told me that from that time on he had no up and down experiences about the love of God for him.
In talking to him on the phone i was impressed with his tone of peace and trust. He just came across as the most concerned person and loving person who you just felt he understood. Even tho he had some unorthodox beliefs ... i saw in him a deep understanding of Gods love that was beyond my own experience.
My own experience was a slow and methodical growth in hearing and searching for the love of God. I have always been an emotional person. I do not remember the times that i did not have an assurance of my salvation. But there was this experience i had ... i spent about 5 yrs on memorization and meditation of the nt and decided one day to memorize in the Psalms. So after going through the first 4 chapters... and seeing how the Psalmist was crying out to God... i had a very deep experience. My experience prior to this was that i had a sense of peace and joy in these other NT texts but that day i broke down and was weeping. I soon learned that we could go on in our experience into a more deeper understanding of God. I saw that prayer was like being drawn into a this experience in which there were things that were revealed to me in the meditation and prayer that made me find this searching eyes and voice of a deep and profound mysterious experience in these eternal paradigms. On the one hand there is a confidence that scares me in returning to the Psalms...because its a realm beyond space and time... and the state of the future on this earth .... the potential for great suffering. And on the other hand finding that it is higher than i can physically endure and lower than what i can handle. But praying like this is dangerously determined as a rode in which i might find personal suffering. He makes me pray for big things and then puts me rite in the middle of the disaster and then tells me its according to His plan and He will see me through it.... geezzz... ok ... i learn to pray like this to get me into tribulation....  God is a consuming fire.    
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3185  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 1. - THE BENEFITS OF CHRIST MADE… JOHN CALVIN on: July 29, 2010, 08:26:06 AM
1. All these things will be easily understood after we have given a clearer definition of faith, so as to enable the readers to apprehend its nature and power. Here it is of importance to call to mind what was formerly taught, first, That since God by his Law prescribes what we ought to do, failure in any one respect subjects us to the dreadful judgment of eternal death, which it denounces. Secondly, Because it is not only difficult, but altogether beyond our strength and ability, to fulfill the demands of the Law, if we look only to ourselves and consider what is due to our merits, no ground of hope remains, but we lie forsaken of God under eternal death. Thirdly, That there is only one method of deliverance which can rescue us from this miserable calamity—viz. when Christ the Redeemer appears, by whose hand our heavenly Father, out of his infinite goodness and mercy, has been pleased to succor us, if we with true faith embrace this mercy, and with firm hope rest in it. It is now proper to consider the nature of this faith, by means of which, those who are adopted into the family of God obtain possession of the heavenly kingdom. For the accomplishment of so great an end, it is obvious that no mere opinion or persuasion is adequate. And the greater care and diligence is necessary in discussing the true nature of faith, from the pernicious delusions which many, in the present day, labour under with regard to it. Great numbers, on hearing the term, think that nothing more is meant than a certain common assent to the Gospel History; nay, when the subject of faith is discussed in the Schools, by simply representing God as its object, they by empty speculation, as we have elsewhere said (Book 2, chap. 6, sec. 4), hurry wretched souls away from the right mark instead of directing them to it. For seeing that God dwells in light that is inaccessible, Christ must intervene. Hence he calls himself “the light of the world;” and in another passage, “the way, the truth, and the life.” None cometh to the Father (who is the fountain of life) except by him; for “no man knoweth who the Father is but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.” For this reason, Paul declares, “I count all things as loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord.” In the twentieth chapter of the Acts, he states that he preached “faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ;” and in another passage, he introduces Christ as thus addressing him: “I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness;” “delivering 470thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,”—“that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified through faith which is in me.” Paul further declares, that in the person of Christ the glory of God is visibly manifested to us, or, which is the same thing, we have “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”277277   1 Tim. 6:16; John 8:12; 14:6; Luke 10:22; 1 Cor. 2:2; Acts 20:21; 26:17, 18; 2 Cor. 4:6. It is true, indeed, that faith has respect to God only; but to this we should add, that it acknowledges Jesus Christ whom he has sent. God would remain far off, concealed from us, were we not irradiated by the brightness of Christ. All that the Father had, he deposited with his only begotten Son, in order that he might manifest himself in him, and thus by the communication of blessings express the true image of his glory. Since, as has been said, we must be led by the Spirit, and thus stimulated to seek Christ, so must we also remember that the invisible Father is to be sought nowhere but in this image. For which reason Augustine treating of the object of faith (De Civitate Dei, lib. 11, ch. 2), elegantly says, “The thing to be known is, whither we are to go, and by what way;” and immediately after infers, that “the surest way to avoid all errors is to know him who is both God and man. It is to God we tend, and it is by man we go, and both of these are found only in Christ.”278278   The French is“Car nous tendons a Dieu, et par l’humanité de Jesus Christ, nous y sommes conduits;”—For we tend to God, and by the humanity of Christ are conducted to him. Paul, when he preaches faith towards God, surely does not intend to overthrow what he so often inculcates—viz. that faith has all its stability in Christ. Peter most appropriately connects both, saying, that by him “we believe in God,” (1 Pet. 1:21).
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3186  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christian Supernaturalism: Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield on: July 29, 2010, 07:58:39 AM
Nor can he confine himself to the confession of this one supernatural act. The Christian's God not only existed before nature and is its Creator, but also exists above nature and is its Governor and Lord. It is inconceivable that He should be active only in that speck of being which He Himself has called into existence by an act of His independent power. It exists in Him, not He in it; and just because it is finite and He is infinite, the great sphere of His life and activity lies above it and beyond. It is equally inconceivable that His activities with reference to it, or even within it, should be confined to the operation of the laws which He has ordained for the regulation of its activities and not of His. What power has this little speck of derived being to exclude the operation upon it and within it of that almighty force to whose energy it owes both its existence and its persistence in being? Have its forces acquired such strength as to neutralize the power which called it into being? Or has it framed for itself a crust so hard as to isolate it from the omnipotence which plays about it and successfully to resist the power that made it, that it may not crush it or pierce it at will through and through? Certainly he who confesses the Christian's God has no ground for denying the supernatural act.

Now nothing is further from the Christian's thought than to doubt the reality and the efficiency of second causes. Just because he believes that in creation God created a somewhat - real substance endowed with real powers - he believes that these powers really act and really produce their effects. He thinks of nothing so little, to be sure, as to doubt the immanence of God in these second causes. It is his joy to see the hand of God in all that occurs, and to believe that it is not only by His preserving care, but in accordance with His direction, that every derived cause acts and every effect is produced. But least of all men has the Christian a desire to substitute the immediate energy of God for His mediate activity in His ordinary government of the universe which He has made. Just because he believes that the universe was well made, he believes that the forces with which it was endowed are competent for its ordinary government and he traces in their action the divine purpose unrolling its faultless scroll. The Christian man, then, is frankly ready to accredit to second causes all that second causes are capable of producing. He is free to trace them in all the products of time, and to lend his ear to the poets when they tell him that

This solid earth whereon we tread,
In tracts of fluent heat began,
And grew to seeming random forms,
The seeming prey of cyclic storms,
Till at the last arose the man.
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3187  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 3. - REGENERATION BY FAITH. OF REPENTANCE: CALVIN on: July 29, 2010, 07:53:11 AM
18. This much, however, I will add: when the name repentance is applied to the external profession, it is used improperly, and not 524in the genuine meaning as I have explained it. For that is not so much a turning unto God as the confession of a fault accompanied with deprecation of the sentence and punishment. Thus to repent in sackcloth and ashes (Mt. 11:21; Luke 10:13), is just to testify self dissatisfaction when God is angry with us for having grievously offended him. It is, indeed, a kind of public confession by which, condemning ourselves before angels and the world, we prevent the judgment of God. For Paul, rebuking the sluggishness of those who indulge in their sins, says, “If we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged,” (1 Cor. 11:31). It is not always necessary, however, openly to inform others, and make them the witnesses of our repentance; but to confess privately to God is a part of true repentance which cannot be omitted. Nothing were more incongruous than that God should pardon the sins in which we are flattering ourselves, and hypocritically cloaking that he may not bring them to light. We must not only confess the sins which we daily commit, but more grievous lapses ought to carry us farther, and bring to our remembrance things which seemed to have been long ago buried. Of this David sets an example before us in his own person (Ps. 51). Filled with shame for a recent crime he examines himself, going back to the womb, and acknowledging that even then he was corrupted and defiled. This he does not to extenuate his fault, as many hide themselves in the crowd, and catch at impunity by involving others along with them. Very differently does David, who ingenuously makes it an aggravation of his sin, that being corrupted from his earliest infancy he ceased not to add iniquity to iniquity. In another passage, also, he takes a survey of his past life, and implores God to pardon the errors of his youth (Ps. 25:7). And, indeed, we shall not prove that we have thoroughly shaken off our stupor until, groaning under the burden, and lamenting our sad condition, we seek relief from God. It is, moreover to be observed, that the repentance which we are enjoined assiduously to cultivate, differs from that which raises, as it were, from death those who had fallen more shamefully, or given themselves up to sin without restraint, or by some kind of open revolt, had thrown off the authority of God. For Scripture, in exhorting to repentance, often speaks of it as a passage from death unto life, and when relating that a people had repented, means that they had abandoned idolatry, and other forms of gross wickedness. For which reason Paul denounces woe to sinners, “who have not repented of the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness which they have committed,” (2 Cor. 12:21). This distinction ought to be carefully observed, lest when we hear of a few individuals having been summoned to repent we indulge in supine security, as if we had nothing to do with the mortification of the flesh; whereas, in consequence of the depraved desires which are always enticing us, and the iniquities which are ever and anon springing from them, it must engage our unremitting care. The special repentance enjoined 525upon those whom the devil has entangled in deadly snares, and withdrawn from the fear of God, does not abolish that ordinary repentance which the corruption of nature obliges us to cultivate during the whole course of our lives.
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3188  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Surrender\Obedience a requirement for salvation? on: July 28, 2010, 07:03:57 PM
Free will or not. Charles Stanley has a good message on how God appeals to us

Go to this URL and look up the short sermon on June 30,2010

http://www.intouch.org/broadcast/audio-archives

He points out how God is appealing to us via this verse:

Isaiah  1:18

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
       says the LORD.
       "Though your sins are like scarlet,
       they shall be as white as snow;
       though they are red as crimson,
       they shall be like wool.

 19 If you are willing and obedient,
       you will eat the best from the land;

 20 but if you resist and rebel,
       you will be devoured by the sword."
       For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

This whole passage in Isaiah 1 is a plea to the Nation of Israel. They had turned away from the Lord to Idols. That means they were sacrificing their children on the altar of the Baals... and they were practicing free will divination. hehe.... Everyone was doing rite in his own eyes.

When you see this kind of accusation against the covenant community... that being the circumcised nation of Israel. This was extended to a political and religious Theocracy. That is there was a connection to how the society was functioning as relating to the state of the ot church. So every time you see this National call ... it not necessarily dealing with a people but the whole system of injustice as well.
The ot worship acknowledged that God was the supreme ruler of the universe and all other rulers were subject to being disloyal. In other words rulers are servants of God and the people. Because God declares that He alone deserves the rite to adjudicate the moral equation of nations. His worship is His call to the judge. His focus is to bring comfort to the fatherless... the widows and the orphans. But the people who are usually miss apply the statutes.. laws... decrees .. etc are the earthly judges. Because they do not attend to the helpless. This is how God sorta bangs the gavel down so that He alone can judge the judges.

And this lack in the agencies of men is a natural way that societies proceed. God declares that just as judges die and are no more ... so the justice in a nation also is corrupted. God says to leaders... you speak... but its time for you to be silenced. Your days are numbered. Repent and judge righteously.

This passage is like the judge adjudicating the trial. God is on the throne .. and His court erases crimes. He is saying that if they turn as a nation back to the real Judge then they will be able to plead their case as if there was no crime that they committed. This is exactly why we are enabled to be willing to obey. Because our sins have been cleansed. This Judge is merciful to sinners... He invites sinners to be cleansed of sin and adjudicate their case as if they were white as snow.

 There is a throne in heaven. Nothing escapes the eyes of this Judge sitting on this throne. When He speaks the whole nation rumbles.... shakes... like an earth quake. When He judges all the nations of the earth are summoned to His court. He declares that He will only allow the Calves of nations to continue on. He will judge the revilers and the despots.

 Let me get personal here. We have a rite as His children to appear before the courts of heaven to plead our cause. This is called praying the promises. But instead of this Judge adjudicating national issues ... we come to our Father who is full of compassion... always faithful and eternally loving to His children. The reason that our Father is a judge is because we come to gain protection... we are like the lambs in the fold of the great Shepherd. He leads us in the paths of peace. We are pleased to laying down by the puddles of Bacca ... where we come and plead as leaders of our own sphere of influence that God will intervene and make our paths straight. Have you learned to plead the promises?    
ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3189  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: July 28, 2010, 05:52:46 PM
Hmmmm....Step 1....are we really powerless without God,  KK??? I really don't think 'you' believe that.  I'll certainly admit it's ALL Him....can you really say that???  In your view....God desparately "NEEDS" your help to supply HIM the right to save you.

Basically they are saying that in order for us to be healed in our relationships we must give up our rites to self assertiveness (which is a law of non contradiction... i call this trading..)and make a list of people we have wronged and gain forgiveness in the process. I do not disagree with this concept because Christ does tell us in the sermon on the mount to make amends in a dispute. But these things are not fundamental in a transaction of these spiritual properties. This is a way of wisdom that is practiced in a church setting ... mainly.. for the purpose of healing a dispute that would normally go to court or to a counselor situation.
And this is not fundamental to obtaining gospel grace. This is why it can be dangerous. Because we are dealing with disputes and the law of liberty. The law of liberty is basically saying that there is no law that binds us to obtain forgiveness. We stand in the state of forgiveness out of the free mercy of Christ and not by a law of confession. The confession is our seeking God with a good motive. But we have no power to obtain grace out of our own motive. That comes to us in gospel freedom. We are only doing what is required of us. And not perfectly...Because we no longer stand in the position of condemnation. God deals with us about our sin like a Father to His children... warnings and example. In making this a law .. we are dealing with a fundamental error of the gospel in my opinion.
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3190  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: July 28, 2010, 03:56:08 PM
Bb wrote In the first, the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirits that we are a child of God. This inner witness of the Spirit provides great comfort to the believer.

I agree with you Bill... i believe that assurance can be an experience we have that comes directly from the Spirit, and is not necessarily tied to our sanctification. We may have a very profound experience as a young believer ... and in that experience we would be given an understanding of spiritual things far beyond the understanding of a person who tried to gain it though the daily task of mortifying the flesh by the Spirit. I think we have discussed this in the post about the 70s revival.
I believe there is an experience in which we actually lose a sense of time... we feel that we are outside of our circumstances...we actually have the light of the glory of God flood our souls so that we are filled with pleasure and glory of Christ. I do not think this is after we have done something spiritual to work this up in our experience. But this comes upon us by surprise.
Ive had many experiences of this but most of these experiences has come as a result of hours of meditation. So i believe that a revival experience can come from through a promise and not just through the will of God alone.
Because the Holy Spirit uses the word of God to illuminate our souls then that becomes more than just a revealing of the truth. There are things going on as we read, pray and think about His word. This is why the idea of musing is not a quiet exercise. Rather we are receiving a witness as a powerful communication of being drawn to sense and feel that we are in the heavenly realm. I think this has to do with the ability to store the word in our mind and the holistic spiritual intensity we apply to focus on that word.  The study of Gods word must be this two fold focus. I believe in exegesis so that we correctly interpret the text.... and also in meditation. Meditation is really the art of changing our thinking patterns so that every thought is God centered. But the constant rumination of the word has this spiritual illumination of that spiritual power to us.
We can learn to talk to the Spirit and respond to Him at some level. It comes to us like a voice. When i sit down to write i have this inner voice from this stored experience of yrs of meditation. It is a pleasure to do this.  Always enjoy your post Bill.. you encourage me more than you know.... And i am enjoying reading everyone else too.      
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3191  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: July 28, 2010, 01:46:30 AM
Any choice....from any man....is a potentially fallible choice.  Anybody want to debate that?? If a man can "er" in his decisions about "anything"....He will "always...(apart from the work of God), stand in a lack of "absolutes".  I would argue....that since "your will" was the premise of your "own" salvation.....ie the "start of it".....then 'you" could just as easily be wrong about what you thought you chose.  Sorry MBG...I don't mean to interject, but a true believer's decisions rest upon the grace of the Good work of God in his life.....not the merits of his own error ridden heart and double minded sinful ways...(which again, don't have to be as bad as they can be) but still "off" enough to be misled. There is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end leads to death.  His ways....are not our ways....their "YahWehs".  If God has chosen me...and I really think he has....then "no man" can lose what God has declared.  If somebody "else" saved ya....and you just liked the idea of being around a bunch of loving and giving Christian people...and hope it all works out....then no matter "how much you "will".....will change your "outcome" .  It all really comes down to God...but it takes someone who is completely honest with himself to admit that.  
Actually the bible talks about our identity in Christ as essentially having a will in which our desires are in line with His desires. Thats why we have a longing to get what we desire. It is the classic argument that distinguishes the wheat from the chaff. The desires of the wicked come to nothing. That means that their entire lives are played before us like a ticker tape of one desire after the other in this sequence of time. They are like chaff because their desires have no weight to them so to speak. What i am alluding to is that its not mainly a moral transaction but an identity paradigm .

 But everything that we desire ... i mean.. if God wills it .... because we are fallible ..... will come to pass in time. This is our encouragement to find all of our confidence in Him since we get what we desire. It could be something we want for ourselves. When we were regenerated God placed His will in us. That means that we were given a spiritual set of senses. We can now enjoy the light of the glory of Christ as we seek His face by our new desires. Our desires are always growing in us as a way to know that we are of great value. We know Him by our desires having this yea and amen as we see them coming into reality in a future event.

Because we have the authority of Christ by our being represented in His tribunal... we are like a heavenly lawyer going before the throne of God .... who argues his case. This is why we learn to present our case before men. This is a process of one who knows himself by knowing God. As Calvin put it. It is just as important for us to know ourselves as it is to know God. This is the goal.    
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3192  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: July 27, 2010, 04:09:23 PM
willis:  "How can any believer have assurance of salvation when it's been predetermined by God?"


K_k:  Good point, willis.  If salvation is independent of our choices, then no matter what we choose we can have no assurance of salvation.  We can be lost as anyone while believing we are "elect".

But if our choice is for His will, not our will to be done, and we recognize we have no goodness of our own, then our very choice to receive His Life into our hearts and souls as Savior must have been (and continues to be) inspired by Him.  And our assurance must thus rest on Him, not on our doctrine.

Two arguments about my post.... Either i dont understand a christian wrestler.. .or its doctrine and impersonal... hehe
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3193  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: July 27, 2010, 02:46:16 PM
How can any believer have assurance of salvation when it's been predetermined by God?

How sad if one repents and believes in Jesus' redemption on the cross and His resurrection and yet God says "Sorry, I didn't pick you..."  huh

 

As i was thinking about STPs post about assurance and his personal feelings about his own sin, i want to start this thread because i believe that assurance of faith is absolutely essential to have a healthy faith. If salvation is a change ... a total renovation of a persons inner reality then for salvation to be measured by how personal it is it must be defined by a healthy assurance. If salvation is a transaction that comes through the will of God alone then God must be able by His completion of salvation. To argue that God is sovereign and then be unsure of personal salvation is to say that God is not really sovereign. And if God is absolutely sovereign then that ability to complete the work is measured by our lack of ability to hold onto our personal salvation. This must be taught to us as a way of thinking. It is not entirely comfortable about this because it seems that we are taking Gods salvation of us for granted.
What i am talking about is a God centered view of this world. God coming down and saving man. God preordains the means and the ends of the salvation of man. If God is absolutely in control of all the events of this world then He is able to accomplish this salvation in the Godhead alone. Because the world must work according to His own pleasure. He cannot fail.
So that when we look at His promises about our salvation ...this is absolutely certain that He will keep us to the end. Because this is taught to us in how our own will is brought along in relation to His purposes. What kind of God would work everything out according to His will and not work to subdue our wills in order to accomplish His purposes? We are certain that God teaches His own this kind of dependence as the evidence of their salvation.
This is why we reason that God alone should get the glory for our lives. Because God has determined to covenant with His people as a promise that He is a loving and faithful God. This relationship is based upon Gods covenant promises. In this covenant God is fully able to provide everything we need in order to prosper in our personal salvation. He not only provides the strength..the assurance... the daily needs but He predetermines our good works. This is why we look to God alone for our honor.
This is really about the way we think. We must start out hearing God as that covenant keeping God. He is eternally loving... faithful...kind... and full of compassion. He does not hold our sins against us but He heals all of our diseases. He does not harbor anger against us. He does not accuse us. But He always is faithful to teach us as a Father is concerned for His own son. For He knows our weakness... He knows that we are dust. 
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3194  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Hidden In God on: July 27, 2010, 11:53:35 AM
I love it that when He used Gideon and his 300 men, He had to whittle down the size of the Israeli army first, so they could go against 100's of thousands and win the battle.  If there had been too many of them, they would have thought they were the ones who had beaten the enemy in their own strength.

By creating impossible odds, God showed His power, as He has done many times in history.  And, of course, He picked the weakness of the criminals' death on the Cross to defeat all the seeming power of satan.

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."  1 Corinthians 1:25

"For the Message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."  1 Corinthians 1:18

Actually.... did you know that the reason that God made His armies a small fighting machine is because He ordered a supernatural event in the battle itself? This ot analogy is the NT eternal procession of saints who endure persecution and fought in a supernatural realm of faith. And we are reminded that there is a great army in heaven of the saints who are clothed in white ... praying how long oh Lord will you delay your great battle and bring the enemies of God to be brought to eternal justice in the their own blood? God actually fights these battles in His unseen supernatural working power throughout all generations.

This is why the saint is encouraged to give God all of the glory. Because God trains the saints to fight a good fight. God is directly involved in all human opposition through the human agencies in displaying His supernatural power through weak people. This is Gods supernatural power working through us... we have a personal connection to the physical infusions of spiritual power as it flows through our bodies and we gain physical strength to go on. He trains us so that we can climb the mountains like a deer. This power is mixed with a tendency to find a praise that floods our souls so that we are as confident as a lion. What is the purpose of having men who know God crawl around like worms in order to show God working. Working in mens programs out of a sense of helplessness through unbalanced doctrinal approaches.  Who is going to accomplish this work if God does it alone? There is no such thing as let go and let God!
Our history in this world is just like Christ coming into the world and He healed the world of disease. He actually overcame all of the finite obstacles according to His Fathers will so that He was nice in His warnings to lesser foes. Christ did good to the world and He has an army that throughout the history of the world that has done the only good that has been produced in this world.More Christians work hospitals and help the poor than any other identifiable group of people. It is the Christians that developed the most free societies of this world.      
Remove messageRemove ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify
3195  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The vitality of the assurance of faith on: July 27, 2010, 11:12:46 AM
The holiness of God is in the context of His sovereign will to accomplish in us what He demands. Any time we see a person worshiping God as holy there are some limits in this doctrine of how we are encouraged to be holy. The availability of being holy is in the grace of holiness that works in us in these eternal verities. God is holy because His present working is unhindered.
This is why He is majestically holy. His majesty is in this procession of His created order in which He works to subdue every power of this earth so that He is worshiped in His rite to be God. The earth is His footstool because His holiness cannot be thwarted. He gives His law and He upholds it in His elect. We observe His holiness according to His majestic power to uphold His law. This is why His holiness is compared to the thunder in the breakers of the sea. It is the power and sound of the great waves in which the water comes crashing down and fills every space that it floods. This is comparing that kind of power and influence to the majesty of God and His working in and through us.
There is no comparison in a human system that has a natural analogy to this kind of power. Because there is no existence of God working His holiness, in a detailed way ,outside of His covenant promises. Because God gives His oracles to a special people in order to show His working power through these vessels of clay.    

No comments:

Post a Comment