mbG:
"There are places in scripture where it would be impossible to include
the whole of mankind in the translated word world because it would be
physically impossible for all the people in the world to be included in
the event."
K_k: Is it impossible to include all mankind in the
"world" where "God so loved the world...", or "Christ died for the sins
of the whole world"? Is it not rather, that to limit the meaning of
world to "elect only" is to put limits on God's love that are man-made?
mbG; "God must be loving in His disposition or He would destroy all mankind..."
K_k:
Yes, our very existence proves the disposition of God to be love since
His holiness, purity and power would eliminate each person for their
first sin if He were not longsuffering/patient with those He loves.
mbG: "God does not have two wills... He does not do two different things in the same space or in the same existence."
K_k:
True. He loves all His children and desires as many as possible to
come to Him for Life, without forcing them. Much like a human parent,
who wants the best for all his children, but will not make the
rebellious child love him; instead he will do everything besides coerce
the child to win their love in return, by his thoughts/prayers, words
and actions.
mbG: "He does not have a will of determination and a will of non determination. That is a contradiction!"
K_k:
It is not two wills to want freely given love instead of manufactured
imitation love. One Will, two responses allowed. Perfect pursuasion
with the allowance for total rejection in the End.
mbG: "God is
not taken by surprised or is without an intimate experiential knowledge
of everything that transpires. He works in everything to bring Himself
glory."
K_k: Yes, and it glorifies God that He loves all His
children, even those who have chosen, in practice, to be children of
satan by rejecting Him. It does not glorify the One Who loves perfectly
to accuse Him of forcing most of His kids to want to be punished by the
fires of eternal destruction.
Our theology invalidates the love
of God if we see Him as wanting to torture most people from all
mankind's history, and created them with no choice to surrender to His
merciful kindness.
"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless
those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those
who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be Sons of your
Father in Heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good,
and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:44-45
Our
Dad loves His enemies, blesses those who curse Him, does good to those
who hate Him, and demonstrates He has only one Will -- to love His kids,
even those who reject Him.
You are killing me with your
kindness Kk.... i would almost think that you were a god. But if God
were to allow man that kind of freedom then everyone would do what was
rite in his own will. Or he would be caused to carry out his personal
desire. Just think about a world where the discernment and communication
is according to each man. The intent of that kind of power is scary!
And yet that is exactly why there is so much destruction in this world.
That is why real destruction is not about a persons finances... about a
persons religious position.. about a persons physical health. But we are
talking about destroying others because men do not have the fundamental
truths as a source of communication to allow God to be God. They would
rather pick and choose the truth as they see is in order to promote
their own self interest. This is the basic teaching on self
determination. The cause of all the pain in this world is from
men not letting God be God. They refuse to have God in their thinking.
And because they would rather do things in this paradigm of all things
equal then they become their own authority! That is they fail to act in a
way as seeing their own default thinking as the cause of their blaming
things as they view them in the paradigm of their own self determined
checks and balances. This is why most scoffers are religious people. But
God must speak in a clear single message of grace. Or we would be
forever going our own way. And if a person goes in a direction in which
God has not taught them the clear and safe way as He defines that way
then they leave the path of grace and they end up opposing the sinners
who do not appear to prosper in the way. Because we do not have the
power or ability to think our own thoughts when you add up all the
thoughts of the whole world. Our Father says that He will lead us in the
way where we do not want. But we want to go in the way where we live
according to our wants. Because we naturally have our minds on earthly
things. But we have a very deep spiritual disease. When we go our own
way our wants are greater than our waits. God says to wait on Him. We
say we know better. So that we depart from His way and we live our
religious lives in the light of our own self determination. We naturally
follow our own practice. And if we do this for 30 yrs then we become
hardened in our own power. So that the things of God are actually
imaginations of our own righteousness. We must come to an agreement that
God is only God when He does whatever pleases Him. Now you who
have been religious. You are the most dedicated to your free will. You
may even be a confessing Calvinist. But you know that it was not a
doctrine that you have come to love. You play on both sides of the
street. So you have built bigger and bigger barns. You know that the
money is your god. Cause you wanted a long time ago and now your wants
have turned into you little kingdom of power. They are flaming lust that
rise up and destroy your appearance. And you may even be a leader of
many people. Well they look at you and think.. they can achieve the same
success. Ok.. now its become too big for you to handle... they are
going their own way as well. Look if you believe that God is sovereign
then dont think from your own willing. Determine today to ask God to
teach you to wait. Determine to ask God to destroy your wants. Determine
today that you will not practice thinking your own religious thoughts.
Let God be God. Let Him Shepherd you back to not wanting.
| 3389
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism?
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on: May 24, 2010, 07:58:40 PM
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The world brands this a pernicious doctrine.
The world advances free will, the rational and natural approach of good
works, as the means of obtaining the forgiveness of sin. But it is
impossible to gain peace of conscience by the methods and means of the
world. Experience proves this. Various holy orders have been launched
for the purpose of securing peace of conscience through religious
exercises, but they proved failures because such devices only increase
doubt and despair. We find no rest for our weary bones unless we cling
to the word of grace. The Apostle does not wish the Galatians
grace and peace from the emperor, or from kings, or from governors, but
from God the Father. He wishes them heavenly peace, the kind of which
Jesus spoke when He said, "Peace I leave unto you: my peace I give unto
you." Worldly peace provides quiet enjoyment of life and possessions.
But in affliction, particularly in the hour of death, the grace and
peace of the world will not deliver us. However, the grace and peace of
God will. They make a person strong and courageous to bear and to
overcome all difficulties, even death itself, because we have the
victory of Christ's death and the assurance of the forgiveness of our
sins. Men Should Not Speculate About the Nature of God The Apostle adds to the salutation the words, "and from our Lord Jesus Christ." Was it not enough to say, "from God the Father"? It
is a principle of the Bible that we are not to inquire curiously into
the nature of God. "There shall no man see me, and live," Exodus 33:20. A
| 3390
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: The Man, Unmasked (Finally!)
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on: May 24, 2010, 01:47:33 PM
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I
leave you to decide whether or not this was an appropriate topic for
the Main Forum. Although I am aware that there are many perceptive women
(including those who post on this forum) who are already aware of all
this, I dearly wish - as a member of the "Y" chomosome set - that many
more did. (Although, this does seem to tie-in to a lot of what has
already got contributed to this thread; particularly in the area of
male/female interdynamics in such things as dating, marriage, etc.) http://glo.msn.com/relationships/debunking-dude-theory-1533313.story/?gt1=49006Ok
Tb i am going to go out on a limb here. I agree that men are just like
woman in a lot of ways. Men have feelings too. My understanding of men
and relationships is that we are not as good as we look in the
beginning. I do not think anyone can stay together in a life time if
they are focused on these points. If you focus on one thing it is a
distortion of what the relationship is. And if you focus on all of them
it is an imagination that any person is all of them. I like the way a
pastor put it. He said that all he needed was to just be with his wife.
It did not matter what they were doing... or doing nothing. Just content
that they were together. I think choice is overrated. There are a
lot of choices we make to let the other person know that we love them
but they are not the reason to know love. I think its a matter of
understanding that there is only one choice that matters. Gods choice of
us. Gods choice to put us together. If couples would focus on that then
they would be a lot more content. Ok i am on the edge of falling off
this branch.
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3393
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: What is the meaning of life?
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on: May 23, 2010, 04:49:57 PM
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Thank
you very much, abcoH, you are the first person to see with the same
perspective, at least that has spoken up. I shouldn't need validation
except from Him, but it is good to know that i'm not just some
one-of-a-kind "oddball nut" (well, most of the time, anyway).
I
have found that it is not popular to encourage martyrdom over
self-defense [unless Jesus instructs us otherwise at the last moment].
Even some of my favorite radio preachers advise "praise the Lord, and
pass the ammunition". Still, i'm sure they also advise to seek instant
guidance before hurting an attacker, but they focus on the right to
defend ourselves, family, and possessions.
Part of my "training
program" from Him has been learning how much i can hate, as you said,
and how that hatred and planning revenge consumed me. I was forced to
learn to forgive and trust God to provide justice, if i wanted to live
and be healthy/happy. It took many years to bring me to that point, and
more years to show me that the greatest honor we can have in this life
is to give our lives for Christ.
Like in the verse, taken
literally, to "lay down our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy,
acceptable to God which is our reasonable service" (Romans 12:1). It
doesn't seem much like "reasonable service" to our survival instincts,
does it....
Perhaps i should get off the soap-box in this thread,
(hear the cheers?), and just ask you to describe your experiences in
learning to let go of hatred and unforgiveness, to trust Him, and to be
more willing to lay down your own life if called upon to do so. Please?
Two things here about ab said... first i think
she is beginning to see that community is just as defensive as it is
concerned for meeting needs. I mean a lot of people social profile
people and label them because they have a model of community health. If
more Christians actually practiced the christian disciplines they would
be more able to be of help to the weak and the wavering. The christian
community in defense of the motif of"in Christ" theology is a bunch of
weirdos who are radical ... i am talking to the mental healthy christian
community. The reason for a gospel community is to be an identity of
one person. We arent trying to cripple Gods people (put them in a
wheel chair both physically and spiritually speaking) and then tell them
that God will be a sovereign help by depending upon one another to
carry these burdens that are caused by so called philosophical
Christians . Rather each member is required to pray for one another so
that they might be a spiritually discerning person in order to
understand how to come along side of another person and let God change
the person. I would be very careful who i decided to fellowship with in
this day and age. Because of the nature of this world and the
understanding of the multi scientific and pseudo christian desires of
men it is extremely difficult to understand how you could be under the
spirit of legalism. It is just as legalistic to say that a man is
limited in defending himself by your false interpretation of the word of
God as it is to say that a man must submit to your label of that man
and go the way you think in your own mind what is the gospel.
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3394
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine
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on: May 23, 2010, 03:45:14 PM
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The gospel of Christ
The
gospel of Christ in general is this: It is the good tidings that God
has revealed concerning Christ. More largely it is this: As all mankind
was lost in Adam and became the children of wrath, put under the
sentence of death, God, though He left His fallen angels and has
reserved them in the chains of eternal darkness, yet He has thought upon
the children of men and has provided a way of atonement to reconcile
them to Himself again...Namely, the second person of the Trinity takes
man's nature upon Himself, and becomes the Head of a second covenant,
standing charged with sin. He answers for it by suffering what the law
and divine justice required, and by making satisfaction by keeping the
law perfectly, which satisfaction and righteousness He tenders up to the
Father as a sweet savor of rest for the souls that are given to
Him...And now this mediation of Christ is, by the appointment of the
Father, preached to the children of men, of whatever nation or rank,
freely offering this atonement unto sinners for atonement, requiring
them to believe in Him and, upon believing, promising not only a
discharge of all their former sins, but that they shall not enter into
condemnation, that none of their sins or unworthiness shall ever hinder
the peace of God with them, but that they shall through Him be received
into the number of those who shall have the image of God again to be
renewed unto them, and they they shall be kept by the power of God
through faith unto salvation.
Jeremiah Burroughs
...and Heaven
have mercy on us all - Presbyterians and Pagans alike - for we are all
dreadfully cracked about the head and desperately in need of mending.
Herman Melville Moby Dick
We
must not suppose that if we succeeded in making everyone nice we should
have saved their souls. A world of nice people, content in their own
niceness, looking no further, turned away from God, would be just as
desperately in need of salvation as a miserable world.
C.S. Lewis
We
must have the full message. . . 'deliver the whole counsel of God'. . .
. It starts with the Law. The Law of God ... the demands of a righteous
God, the wrath of God. That is the way to bring men and women to
conviction; not by modifying the Truth.... We must confront them with
the fact that they are men and that they are fallible men, that they are
dying men, that they are sinful men, and that they will all have to
stand before God at the Bar of Eternal Judgement....And then we must
present to them the full-orbed doctrine of the Grace of God in Salvation
in Jesus Christ. We must show that no man is saved 'by the deeds of the
Law', by his own goodness or righteousness, or church membership or
anything else, but solely, utterly, entirely by the free gift of God in
Jesus Christ His Son. . . . We must preach the full-orbed doctrine
leaving nothing out-conviction of sin, the reality of Judgement and
Hell, free grace, justification, sanctification, glorification. We must
also show that there is a world view in the Bible ... that here alone
you can understand history-past history, present history, future
history. Let us show this great world view, and God's Eternal
purpose.... Let us at the same time be very careful that we are giving
it to the whole man ... the gospel is not only for a man's heart, that
you start with his head and present Truth to it ... Let us show that it
is a great message given by God which we in turn pass on to the mind, to
the heart, to the will. There is ever this danger of leaving out some
part or other of man's personality... Let us be certain that we address
the whole man-his mind, his emotions and his will.
D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones The Weapons of our Warfare pg. 21-22
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3395
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: May 23, 2010, 02:52:42 PM
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In the last days there will be a lot of
apostasy because supernatural determinations are in the love of God. The
love will wax cold. Although Gods kingdom will continue to expand to
different areas of the world. Why is it that Gods love seems so small in
this time? Because there is a culture of many different views of
reality. I dont think its because people do not know how to love but its
because men focus on the horizontal level for the answers that cannot
be found between men. Because men do not have a well of love! They
cannot accesses the source of love in trying to love. If men cannot love
from themselves then they will love out of a need to be loved in
return. If love must be returned then it is not love!
Because love is
not from the imaginations. It is from an action that proved that it
will continue to love both as a positive action upon the soul and in the
defense from the souls troubles. This love is the perfect love from a
Man as that by which all men understand love. Because Christ came as a
Man and displayed divine love in Human form. From all eternity the
Eternal Son of God determined to put His love on some men to prove that
love was both definite and complete. If we do not understand the cross
and the particular nature of covenant love then we will not understand
the personal nature of Christ personal love for us.
How can we know
love in a loveless culture? How can we know concern when we are
sacrificing our children to the culture and to the altar of self love?
How can we know love when our culture has become a place of taking the
institution of marriage and exposing it to public ridicule. How can we
know love if marriage has been spread to other institutions in the
streets including adultery and children? How can we know love if we are
being bombarded with sex.. a lack of respect in normal roles in society?
How can we know love is there is no understanding of communication of
divine love beyond offering the gospel? Well there is only one hope. We
must be loved beyond our culture and our understanding of ourselves as
we are waxed cold! We must be loved by God. That is we must seek to find
Gods love as He has spoken from eternity. The more we are encouraged to
be vexed in our spirits the more we must focus on Gods love from all
eternity.
We must come to God as Father and in our own culture
of community we must change the religious formalism. Our Father says for
us to come and pour out our hearts to Him nite and day. We are told to
come over and over again until we know the love of God which passes
knowledge. We must determine that we will not seek anything until we
have been filled with the love of God beyond measure! God is eternally
loving.The whole creation groans inwardly for an understanding of Gods
eternal love. Gods love is better than our life! We must be led to the
Rock that is above our understanding of human love. Because in His love
we see love. If we find God then we will find love because God is love!
There is a well of love available to His children. We must put all our
pain before Him... we must place all our hopes before Him. We must see
that He will answer our prayers to know the love of God . Because if we
pray according to His will He will hear us and He will come and
fellowship with us as He is the Trinity.
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