"Here it may be noted, that there is a
circumstantial difference between the moral Agency of a ruler and a
subject. I call it circumstantial, because it lies only in the
difference of moral inducements, by which they are capable of being
influenced, arising from the difference of circumstance. A ruler, acting
in that capacity only, is not capable of being influenced by a moral
law, and its sanctions of threatenings and promises, rewards and
punishments, as the subject is; though both may be influenced by a
knowledge of moral good and evil. " Edwards...... Here is the problem...
|
3440
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Who is your favorite well-known Pastor\Preacher?
|
on: May 13, 2010, 03:14:15 PM
|
Christ came in the flesh and He was eternally
the Son of God. But there is no man who could understand his own image
unless Christ existed as the Son. Because all men must have a moral
principle in relation to the real man. Because there is a frustration in
man apart from having Christ indwelling that man by His Spirit. How can
a man be comforted if Christ is local in His humanity as He is ascended
into heaven in this present relation we desire of knowing Christ as the
only real man? Because He dwells in us by His Spirit. Christ has
always been Lord over all creation. Not only as the creator in the
beginning but as God who holds all things together. And yet we are
promised that we will be comforted by the Holy Spirit because He will
take the things of Christ and show them unto us. So even if Christ was
physically present in the past yet His attributes as our Priest and
Prophet is a current fellowship we have with Him by the Spirit. This is a
communication to us of the properties of the perfect man. So we not
only are illuminated that the Spirit moves in us to will and to do but
we have a friend who becomes our substitute in representing us to God
and who knows us intimately as if He were present with us in body. And
not only that but He actually comes to us as a representative from our
Father to speak to us. But He has already come into the flesh so that
our understanding of our weakness is what He has accomplished in how He
became weak so that we might be strong. There is a sense in which we
fellowship with a companion as an older brother to us. Because these
personal effects to us come from Christ in a family communication. Now
then when we pray the Spirit takes our prayers and prays for us in
behalf of us to Christ who represents us to the Father. So that we grow
in this communication in which we are in a special relationship to the
Father because the Three persons of the Trinity are one in purpose so
that we are in Christ and we share as His sons in this relationship. Now
then Christ is present with us so that we have a mystical understanding
of His presence with us. We fellowship with Him as He is present with
us. There is a sense that He has drawn near to us and opened our the
eyes of our understanding so that we have an assurance of this secure
representation to us personally.
|
3445
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
|
on: May 13, 2010, 11:17:54 AM
|
David was the king -prophet of the glory of
God. There is a sense in which the NT doctrine of the church is the
manifestation of Gods glory in community. And we could possible get
bogged down in some of these doctrinal issues because there are high
points in church history and there are low points. In the high points we
see a large amount of new converts .. This is evidence in a full
expression the life of Christ in the church as a community proof of
grace. There is much rejoicing and a new effort to not trust in the
flesh. But when the church goes through a general state of
lukewarmness then it becomes very carnal. And there are all kinds of
self generated religious connections so that the light of the glory of
God is faint. Then we are cast into a kind of uncertainty about where
God has gone. And the world begins to draw near so that we find in the
church more question about what God does in working through us and we
begin to lose heart. This is why we are made to go back in reforming to
the simplicity of the gospel of grace. Because when we focus on Christ
then we see the glory. Now then... David was the king who focused on the
glory. The gospel of the glory of Christ. The majesty of the glory of
the Most High. The light of the glory of this earth. All the earth is
filled with His glory! We look for the face of God because we want the
glory to shine on our face so that we will be changed into the image of
Christ .Because when we see the light of the glory of God then we lose a
sense of suffering and our pain and sorrow. We are raised to worship
God who is all glorious... and who has a certain hidden mystery as we
must draw near to our loving Father so that the light might shine as it
is reality as it is shining day and night over all the earth. God speaks
in the glory of His works in which we find the transcendent experience
in looking as seeing the light of the glory with our eyes of faith. Have
you seen the glory of God? Have you sought this uncommon communication
that is beyond this religious lukewarmness? Restore us oh Lord God
Almighty ... make Your face shine upon us that we may be saved!
| 3446
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 3. - REGENERATION BY FAITH. OF REPENTANCE: CALVIN
|
on: May 13, 2010, 10:12:04 AM
|
Tom, This is good stuff and thanks for posting. If I may, I will comment on a couple things that struck home to me.
and yet that holiness of life, real holiness, as it is called, is inseparable from the free imputation of righteousness
A
good point indeed. Eternal life and God's imputed righteousness is
indeed a free gift received by faith. Regeneration involves our being
born anew, born from above, and the receipt of the new nature which
comes from God. Now we have the desires,expressed so well by toadboat as
follows
However,
that being said, my desire to ask for the right desires has increased
of late; such a thing, no matter how innocuous it may appear from the
outside, is no small thing.
So as believers we have this
new nature that desires to please God, and yet at the same time, as
Romans 6 expresses, we still have the problem of indwelling sin or the
sin nature if you will. Thus the struggle described in Romans 7'
The
term repentance is derived in the Hebrew from conversion, or turning
again; and in the Greek from a change of mind and purpose; nor is the
thing meant inappropriate to both derivations, for it is substantially
this, that withdrawing from ourselves we turn to God, and laying aside
the old, put on a new mind
Thus is biblical repentance in a
believer's life an ongoing process? I think so. There is a place for
self-examination and confession of sins as revealed by the Spirit. One
thing that seems lacking here is the joy of the Christian though.
Sometimes too much dwelling on our sin and failure is not healthy imo.
Once the Spirit has revealed our sin, confess it, experience God's
forgiveness, and move forward. It is Satan who would continue to accuse
us and contantly place our sin before us. Looking forward to more and thanks again for posting. Bill Thanks
Bill.... i agree and i think its different for each of us. Some of us
have the awful tendencies to over evaluate our own sins. And yes this is
being dragged along by the Devil. Because Gods ways are not our ways...
we cant fake this tendency to stray off the path. It is a path were we
have no strength in the flesh.. we have no confidence in man... we have
no ability to produce goodness.. we have no self reliance on gaining
acceptance in our confession. It is like a person who was the worse
sinner and then Christ comes in all of His grace and the person is not
even thinking of himself. He is so fixed on receiving this freedom that
he sees nothing in his own identity that would qualify him to be blessed
with Christ goodness. This is why we cannot entire put confidence in
our own mortification. We find after becoming religious about our
confession... and then these things come to us because we do something
and then we begin to put our confidence on our own religious exercises.
Well this looks like we are practicing in obedience but God is showing
us my our trust that there is a much deeper problem with sin that we
thought. That is why the apostle came to the conclusion that Christ was
made known because the apostle was nothing. No power ... no ability to
produce his own righteousness by pointing to the law... no confidence in
his ability as an apostle... no relying on the religious community to
be supportive of his causes.. no help of easing his own suffering of the
thorn...but out of nothing he gave God all the glory. Now this is more
than thinking in terms of a process to become holy.. this is Christ
becoming the life of the saint. I do not want to insinuate that
our prayers... confession... using the means do not count for anything.
We believe that in justification by faith our good works are only
acceptable because Christ has imputed His righteousness to us. In other
words we look at our part and we say.... they are dirty rags.... bloody
putrid and messy. Because of Gods love. Yes... that is the reason.
Because of Gods great and eternal love. Every thing on this earth is
dieing. But Gods love is renewing. So that all the glory of good goes to
God and all the goodness in man is of this earth. It is dead works. We
are free because of Gods communicating His love to us in this renewal of
our spirits. We are being renewed day by day. So that all of creation
is an evidence that God is glorious. There fore we do not trust in man
made images. Because they are dead. God is in heaven and the earth is
His footstool. That is why we glory in God because He does whatever
pleases Him as being God. All other gods are but dead idols. This
is why we are made to put all our hope in God alone. Because there is
only one way that we are being renewed. Because God speaks and we are
made new. All other forms of communication are swords and arrows. So
that our experience in this land of death is that we lie down in the
company of idol makers as if we were in the mist of ravenous wolves.
These things are made for us as that by which God humbles us along the
path that He has prepared for us in this world. When we cry out to God
we cry from the position that we are being pierce through with
communication of god haters. This is why we lie down in the mist of
lions and we walk in a path where there is traps along the way ...
prepared by idol makers. But these pits are that have been dug for us
are only going to be their graves. Because we avoid the company of the
scoffers and we put all our confidence in God. When we see the reality
of this life then we cry for Gods glory to be over all the earth. In our
cry we begin to have a sense of Gods power and majesty because we look
beyond this earth to a God who is above all things and He is beyond all
of the communication of death. When we see our helplessness and Gods
glory then we are raised anew with power in looking at the light of the
glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We are made to rejoice in God
alone. This is how we have confidence among the hungry wolves.
|
 Remove
 Reply
 Quote
 Notify
|
|
3447
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: CHAPTER 3. - REGENERATION BY FAITH. OF REPENTANCE: CALVIN
|
on: May 13, 2010, 09:48:32 AM
|
Believe
it or not, Mbg, I read every last bit of this (some parts twice!). This
is indeed something that is at once liberating and also disturbing on a
very deep level. One the one hand I see that (as you and I have been
arguing on these forums for the last couple of years) that repentance is
a fruit of faith (which in itself is a gift of God). Yet, with my
typical morbid introspection, all I see whenever I look at myself, is my
own penchant for sin and my seeming love affair with the same. (At the
same time crying out to God to give me a hatred and loathing for my sin
and a hunger for Him and the things of Him).
I know by past
experience that any and all resolutions on my part to "try and do
better" or "to be more committed" or even to "cooperate" with the work
God is trying to work in me, will only lead back to the same starting
point of futility which is the carnal self. And yet (there is always "and yet!") I still sometimes wonder how genuine my "repentance" is. I want to be different, and yet I don't want to be. (If you get my meaning!).
What
is liberating is that just as Luther said to the Diet of Worms: "Here I
stand, I can do no other!" So it is with me. I am as good as I am ever
going to get on my own terms. "Here I stand" with me means that any
life-changing programs or systems designed to "get my back on the right
track" are done and over with. As I said before, the only place such
thing ever brought me to was back to "good 'ole me!" However, that being
said, my desire to ask for the right desires has increased of late;
such a thing, no matter how innocuous it may appear from the outside, is
no small thing.
Tb... i agree.. we make it more difficult
than it is. I do not think any of our circumstances come to us because
we are faced with an equal choice. I was showing my wife this verse in 1
John 3 16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his
life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If
anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no
pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us
not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then
is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts
at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is
greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. It has always been
in my experience that our desires protect us from going astray. And we
do not deserve to be placed in the position of having this kind of rest
as an experience. In other words His choosing our lives for us is what
we understand as Gods greatness. Ive never been encouraged to do
something out of guilt. The only real and lasting security on this earth
is to do ONE thing. That ONE thing produces all of the reality for me.
The One thing is to know Christ. But we cant know Him if it becomes a
religious exercise. We know Him by His loving us. This is why it seems
that the things that are hidden from the world are made known to the
ones He loves. Its His secret work that looks uncommon to the way the
world conducts its affairs. I do not think we have the strength in
ourselves to deny these good things of this world. He not only saves us
with giving us these new desires but He saves us from ourselves. This
process is not always joyful.. but it is mixed with joy and sorrow. The
sorrow moves us to find comfort in His love and the joy keeps us from
despair. And even if we despaired He is going to carry us across the
finish line. We are at the cross roads in this country. God is going
to use our sufferings to produce what we have not done in our low
religion. He is going to produce this united effort to take the burdens
off of his needy ones and there will be very little opportunity to build
a system of religion. This is His refining fire.
| 3453
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Is it REALLY All God?
|
on: May 12, 2010, 12:27:29 PM
|
mbG: "I dont believe that we are sinners in the sense that we have habits." K_k: Because we are sinners we have habitual patterns of sin. mbG:
"Even tho there is a list of sins yet there is a qualification in the
entire list as that by which sin is more than the identity of that
list." K_k: True. The sin that is deeper than any behavioral
list is the tendency to do our will independently of God and His will.
The lists are just outgrowths of that inner rebellion. mbG: "So
when we are regenerated we die to sin. We no longer are slaves to sin
and the law. But we are identified in Christ and we have been entirely
sanctified. In our identity we do not need to sin." K_k: When we
are regenerated, the new person, Christ in us, is no slave to sin.
Acting fully In Christ we no longer sin. In Christ we are entirely
sanctified. In the flesh we still sin. In the flesh we don't act
entirely sanctified. So there is this struggle in us, which is
Christ growing us toward His Image. In the flesh i will still, at
times, do what i don't want to do and not do what i want to do, since
"nothing good dwells in my flesh". Yet Christ in me does not sin and He
has become my very life. So all the old habitual sins must be
conquered by His love, and that is precisely how He saves us, by His
becoming more of our practical life as we die to the person we used to
be. mbG: "We no longer are people who are addicted in what ever
substance ... paradigm or any thing that qualifies us to a different
identity that Christ." K_k: We can be, and most/all Believers
are, people who have a new nature and identity in Christ, yet still have
patterns of weakness in the flesh which, when acted upon, drive us back
into His arms. Thus, our addictions of the flesh become a blessing for
the Believer since they show us where we are still acting on self-will
and the pain they cause helps push us back toward being centered in
Jesus. mbG: "Think about this." K_k: Good advice. For both of us.  Kk...
i dont want to be too technical but I dont believe that we are
connected to a principle. So in a sense Christ is our life ... or we
know Him not by a thing written on a page. So there are no list just a
reality that we are accepted as corrupted loved ones. Because our sin
and temptation do not hold us in contempt of anything that would cause
us to continual sorrow. That is why we do not consider ourselves as
needing anything that requires us further connective realities as a
hurdle in order to fellowship with Christ through the Spirit. In other
words we presuppose most of the time that things of our flesh have more
power over us than His communicated freedom in our circumstances.
Because we are settling down in His grace which is more abundant than we
experience because we lack the ability to acquire an assurance out of
the need to work our own repentance. This is not penance. Christ
is not the bread and the wine.. He is present in the Spirit and He
dwells in us through the Spirit. We do not enter through a physical
barrier. But we have the fullness of God dwelling in us. We are
connected to the Christ as the branches are connected to the vine. So
that we hear Him speak and we fellowship in His strength. We experience
His life and we long for a revived connection to all of His assurances
to us. So we live in all of these qualities and we are coming into a
communication in which we are consumed by His life in us. He says that
we do not need to read about Him but that He will reveal these things to
us. Now that is a relationship that makes everything different in how
we view this world. This is the reason that we find a blessing in being a
sinner.
| 3454
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Is it REALLY All God?
|
on: May 12, 2010, 11:29:00 AM
|
mbG: "Basically he is saying that Christ frees him from being destroyed and condemned cause he cant get it rite.
K_k:
My take on it is that he is admitting to having areas of his life in
which he wants to obey God but instead ends up obeying the flesh. But
he is not hopeless. In Christ we are progressively freed from the grip
of the flesh. It is not the new "i" in Christ, the new Creation, who
does the sin, but the sin pattern remains in the flesh until Christ
"disconnects" it from us.
For example, i smoked for years while
not wanting to. As a Believer, i wanted very much to quit, in some ways
for the wrong reasons. But i couldn't quit. I kept doing what i
didn't want to do, and didn't do what i wanted to do. I felt hopeless
except for the faith Jesus was building in me that He would set me free
from lady nicotine, in His way and time.
In a sense, the smoking
habit from that point on was not something "i" wanted, the new part of
"i" that wants to do God's will. Yet, the old sin nature still had
power. As Christ built up the faith that He would free me, He also made
the cigs less and less attractive, so i began to hate the sin more and
thank Him more, in advance, for freeing me.
And He did. So i
join Paul, with respect to this area of my life, in saying "Who will
deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ
our Lord!"
I dont believe that we are sinners in the sense
that we have habits. Because first that is a very shallow view of sin.
We are addicted and habitually practicing sin. I dont see smoking in the
apostles struggle. The apostle is not saying that we struggle with a
sin and then quit it. He is saying that he sins and he doesnt have an
answer because sin dwells in us and it works in us as a foreign agent of
the christian. So i believe that we are dealing with a much deeper
issue here. We are not developing a particular sin identity. Even tho
there is a list of sins yet there is a qualification in the entire list
as that by which sin is more than the identity of that list. Think about
what i said in this last statement Kk. So when we are
regenerated we die to sin. We no longer are slaves to sin and the law.
But we are identified in Christ and we have been entirely sanctified. In
our identity we do not need to sin. Why does any so quickly separate
themselves from grace and from the gospel? Our problem is that we define
our selves as addicted to something but that is not scriptural. Our
identity is that we belong to another and not to ourselves as sinners.
There for we are saints and even tho we practice sin can feel helpless
..." O wretched man i am who will rescue from this body of death... that
being something that we cannot separate ourselves from... we sort of
carry around this dead man called sin and it prevents us from total
freedom from sorrow and pain. When we talk about christian normality we
are talking about a specific identity. We no longer are people who are
addicted in what ever substance ... paradigm or any thing that qualifies
us to a different identity that Christ. We fall and we are rescued by
Christ. If we do not demand that we no longer are in the same
relationship to addiction then we will not return in a fashion in which
we throw off the old sin. The communication of identity is the quality
that determines our abandoning something we were. Think about this.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
3456
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism?
|
on: May 11, 2010, 06:09:34 PM
|
|
VERSE 2. And all the brethren which are with me.
This
should go far in shutting the mouths of the false apostles. Paul's
intention is to exalt his own ministry while discrediting theirs. He
adds for good measure the argument that he does not stand alone, but
that all the brethren with him attest to the fact that his doctrine is
divinely true. "Although the brethren with me are not apostles like
myself, yet they are all of one mind with me, think, write, and teach as
I do."
VERSE 2. Unto the churches of Galatia.
Paul had
preached the Gospel throughout Galatia, founding many churches which
after his departure were invaded by the false apostles. The Anabaptists
in our time imitate the false apostles. They do not go where the enemies
of the Gospel predominate. They go where the Christians are. Why do
they not invade the Catholic provinces and preach their doctrine to
godless princes, bishops, and doctors, as we have done by the help of
God? These soft martyrs take no chances. They go where the Gospel has a
hold, so that they may not endanger their lives. The false apostles
would not go to Jerusalem of Caiaphas, or to the Rome of the Emperor, or
to any other place where no man had preached before as Paul and the
other apostles did. But they came to the churches of Galatia, knowing
that where men profess the name of Christ they may feel secure.
It
is the lot of God's ministers not only to suffer opposition at the hand
of a wicked world, but also to see the patient indoctrination of many
years quickly undone by such religious fanatics. This hurts more than
the persecution of tyrants. We are treated shabbily on the outside by
tyrants, on the inside by those whom we have restored to the liberty of
the Gospel, and also by false brethren. But this is our comfort and our
glory, that being called of God we have the promise of everlasting life.
We look for that reward which "eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,
neither hath entered into the heart of man." WOW
|
|
Remove
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
3457
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine
|
on: May 11, 2010, 06:05:43 PM
|
Five Solas Unwarranted confidence in human
ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is
not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We
confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable
even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in
salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the
supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by
releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death
to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work.
Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish
this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human
nature. - Cambridge Declaration
|
3462
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Is it REALLY All God?
|
on: May 11, 2010, 01:08:17 PM
|
mbG: "If a man chooses what he does not want then that doesnt make sense."
K_k:
Yes, it makes no sense. It is the final stage of addiction, especially
addiction to self. I'm sure you know these verses well, but some may
not. Paul speaking:
"For what I am doing, I do not understand.
For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I
do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it
is good.
But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that
dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good
dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good
I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the
evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to
do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I
find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do
good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But
I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,
and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my
members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body
of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Romans 7:15-25
It
makes no sense that we would continue doing what we don't want to do,
in some area of our lives, yet we all do that, until we are rescued in
that area, by Jesus Christ. Isn't that your experience also?
Kk...
think about this... every choice that we make we are responsible for.
So if we have a pound of not want to and a pound and a half of want
to... do you think the pound of not want to matters against our good
choice? The apostle is not saying that in each choice he has good and
bad. But he is saying that if you add up all the good choices in his
life and you add up all the bad choices you will find that he does not
make choices that equal that he is a christian. He doesnt do what he
says. He doesnt act like a christian. What good is it if we do
something and then we find that what we did was not the good we thought
we did? That is another problem as well. Our judgment about things of
appearance are not always correct. Basically he is saying that Christ
frees him from being destroyed and condemned cause he cant get it
rite.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
3465
|
Forums / Politics Forum / Re: Repentance as a Nation
|
on: May 11, 2010, 11:26:42 AM
|
Christians live a life of repentance. Its not
really a covenant call. Its a national call. Because Israel was a nation
who was ruled by an earthly king but the earthly king was chosen by
God. I know that Saul was chosen by the people... i do not think that
Gods remnant were too happy about that choice. That is why when
Johnathan ate the honey and being unfaithful to the king ... the people
who represent Gods faithfulness in the coming of the house of David
sided with Johnathan because God was dividing the kingdom of Saul. David
and Johnathan covenant with one another was an expression of Sauls lack
of authority because he was destructive in his edicts. Sauls own son
gave David not just a personal allegiance but a political one as well as
a matter of counsel. Although David was respectful of Sauls position
he was not a fool either. This principle of protection of Gods
people does involve a sort of hiding in Gods covenant faithfulness as a
wise way of rebelling against oppressive authority. In fact David
received all of Sauls political rivals who were devastated by his edict
both financially and morally.....even tho he showed kindness to Sauls
house by receiving Sauls handicap child. We must see that Christ is
always the king and He does whatever pleases Him. And that it may look
like something that is not rite in the view of man. This is why when
David sinned .. and even tho there was a fall out... yet all of the
vengeance was carried out to his enemies. David did not suffer a divided
kingdom. God crushed it. Because in Davids sin he practiced humble
kingship. It wasnt exactly clean. So we see that we must fight on both
fronts. The principle is if we allow a general lack of concern on any
front then we are giving more ground to the devil. The scripture says
that the devil is not just in the church but He is in the high places of
ruler ship. We are commanded to not retreat but to stand firm. Let us
as Gods covenant people call down judgment on all the abusers as well as
ask God to protect the children and the orphans... mothers and widows.
This is the kind way of doing it.... read the curses of the law... God
is imaginative (from our view point) in His retribution. Religious
oppression and political oppression are both gospel problems. Because
that is not just a spiritual kingdom issue. It involves both worlds.
Church leadership has the authority to judge all cases outside of the
world system. We must protect Gods people. Are we going to rule them
with rules or are we going to come to the aid of Gods people?( The post
Solomon problem) Are we going to add more burdens on their backs or are
we going to be what we say?And let that be the redeeming value.
|
3467
|
Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Praying the Psalms Q&A 5-7-2010
|
on: May 11, 2010, 10:09:04 AM
|
mbG:
"Worship is radical... Calvinism is radical... and all of the promises
to us are yea and amen because we believe that God does what ever He
pleases."
K_k: Worship is radical. Christianity is radical.
All of God's promises are sure because He does whatsoever He pleases.
Which is to love us so much that He gives us freedom to reject Him,
although He wants everyone to accept the grace and mercy that He, by His
very nature, extends to all mankind. He enlightens, guides and
empowers our will, but doesn't coerce us.
"The Lord is not slack
concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering
toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come
to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
He is not willing, it is not His
desire, that any should perish, yet He knows many will. Still, in the
end, no one will be able to blame God for their rejection of His
Salvation in Christ, He does not cause their rejection, only empowers
and allows it.
2 Pet. 3:1 1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you..... 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are
like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some
understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Again
you are proof texting. If you look at the pronouns you can see the
group that Peter is addressing. It is the brothers 1 Pet 1 "To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father"... First .. you cant
take a verse out of its context and develop a systematic self determined
explanation. Peter is just reassuring the saints that not one of them
will be left out. They were suffering under great persecution so they
needed to be reassured of Gods faithful covenant to His church. The
words all... everyone...the world...anyone.. etc are not like we use
them in the English language. But there are greek words that take on
different meanings according to the near context and far context. There
are places in scripture where it would be impossible to include the
whole of mankind in the translated word world because it would be
physically impossible for all the people in the world to be included in
the event. Here is the entire hermeneutic of this context of Gods personal effects and mans reception of the gospel.. 1.
God is described as having a desire that is not necessarily in line
with everything He decrees in an absolute sense. But it works in line
with everything He decrees. It is said that God works out of His eternal
love and goodness... faithfulness and long suffering are His desire in
everything that transpires. As stated in John 3:16. God does not lead
off with judgment or Adam would have been toast as soon as he sinned.
But God is patient... long suffering... faithful and eternally loving.
So God designed a way in which He could display His goodness to all
mankind. The reason that God is always good is because God never fails
to defend and uphold in His eternal love. God is a rescuer. So that we
always can depend on God when everything outside of Gods attributes and
subsistence is undependable. The reason that God upholds His law is
because it protects the outcome of abuse and treachery. God is always
good. He works good out of mans treachery. Because God must protect in
His loving desire against all of the desires of the wicked. Because if
the desires of the wicked were fulfilled then there would be great
destruction... pain and ultimate apostasy in the world. So God works for
the good out of the bad. Men are rebels in their hearts because they
think they can do things in their relationships that will remove God and
bring their own authority in their relationships. All men go astray
because they think thoughts that are in direct rebellion against God.
They develop their own systems of checks and balances in which they make
rules were they excuse themselves and they blame others. This is the
state in which all the gods of this earth have their rule. God must be
loving in His disposition or He would destroy all mankind because of
their oppression against God and the poor and oppressed. But God
has determined to work every thing out for His own purposes. God does
not have two wills... He does not do two different things in the same
space or in the same existence. There is no such thing as a
contradiction in God. The God of contradiction is a man made god. God
only has one will! Therefore God has determined what so ever comes to
pass. He does not have a will of determination and a will of non
determination. That is a contradiction! To determine that a person can
determine to not do as God wills is to say that God is not God in
allowing that kind of freedom. It is ascribing to God two wills. God
works everything out because He decreed everything to transpire so that
God has an eternal purpose for every little movement in time. God is not
taken by surprised or is without an intimate experiential knowledge of
everything that transpires. He works in everything to bring Himself
glory. That is the purpose of all things. There fore God determines mans
destiny. time to stop.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
3468
|
Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Praying the Psalms Q&A 5-7-2010
|
on: May 10, 2010, 02:41:12 PM
|
In
another sense, the bad news comes first. Mankind is perishing. The
Day of the Judgement of the Lord is coming. For Believers this latter
is Good News, but for most people it is bad news that hopefully drives
them to the Good News. What i'm not understanding is how you read
"For God so loved the world that He gave...". Are you saying that He
only loved the ones who would be saved? And why wouldn't you want to use Scripture to support your statements? There's no better source, is there?
I
do not think we can entirely look at this as a simple proclamation of
the gospel. There are a lot more truths that must be put into this
systematic working of the way of a Calvinistic society. In other words
if our Calvinistic society does not contribute to a kind of grace that
is different from the arminian kind of practice then we are giving
ground to this aggressive incorporation of practical theology that will
argue against our proselytizing of Calvinism as a main stream practical
theology. This is where i believe the warning to everyone that is put
into the question .. .Who are you to talk back to God? has teeth. We
tend to be passive because we believe that God will work all things out
for our good and in this understanding we have a different kind of
disposition as our way of experience. But there are consequences for
arguing against Calvinism. Ive always wondered why it is that we
Calvinist always the ones who are giving up ground and think that our
position of niceness does not tend to make us inferior by being defined
as passivised even tho we believe with a passion that what God says is
what God means. If God says that its not a mans will that determines his
salvation then our position is that we are confident that God has
spoken and it is a final word. In a sense men who deny Gods sovereignty
will only break themselves against the stone the builders rejected. Not
that we want to exclude some well meaning Arminist from the fold of God.
But if we dont respect ourselves in our arguments then how can we honor
God? In comes the curses. Because God is absolutely sovereign
then we do not need to live as tho God is an Arminist .In other words
God is as we understand Him to be in the weight of our understanding of
His sovereignty and our authority to uphold these doctrines of grace ...
that He determines these things in a radical way. We act like the
religious environment we live in because there are consequences for
living with a false view of God and man. It spoils every thing in the
community of Calvinist. Its like a virus of semi plagenism that makes
our worship sickly. This is why there is very little gospel assurances
that are felt in our worship and in our relationships. We have been
immune to this radical religious experience. God is not pleased. People
... there are consequences for holding onto theories of human ability.
THat is the leaven in the mixture of this carnal tendency to love
something because of our relationships that we consider more important
than our worship. This is why the Psalmist says that the zeal for Gods
house consumed all of his earthly relationships. In other words what
ever Christ suffered in his rejection from men ... the Psalmist
suffered. Even to his own family. His children and all of those who
brought him scorn. This is so radical that there are curses that are
involved in how a person defines reality as different from the world. I
do not mean a christian... but there is a level of pain. This is why we
are to guard our Calvinism. Because we are only safe when we have a
single heart in worship. Worship is radical... Calvinism is radical...
and all of the promises to us are yea and amen because we believe that
God does what ever He pleases.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
3469
|
Forums / Key Life Forum / Re: Praying the Psalms Q&A 5-7-2010
|
on: May 09, 2010, 01:59:56 PM
|
mbG: "I do not believe that fellowship is purely relational but predominately theological language."
K_k: Have you considered the implications of this statement? Maybe you are defining your terms a little uniquely, perhaps?
mbG:
"We would rather suffer ourselves than believe that God says that they
will suffer and you will be blessed. How crazy is that? We are
definitely a hard headed bunch."
K_k: Yes, like Abraham trying
to get God to spare the corrupt city of Sodom, like Moses interceding
for the rebellious Israelites, like Jesus taking on the sins of the
whole world, like Paul wishing he could be damned if all the Jews could
be saved.
"Then the men turned away from there and went toward
Sodom, but Abraham still stood before YHWH (the LORD). And Abraham came
near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Suppose there were fifty (40/30/20/10 in later verses) righteous within
the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the
fifty righteous that were in it? Far be it from You to do such a thing
as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous
should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all
the earth do right?” Genesis 18
"Now therefore, let Me alone,
that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I
will make of you a great nation.”
Then Moses pleaded with the LORD
(YHWH) his God, and said: “LORD (YHWH), why does Your wrath burn hot
against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with
great power and with a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians speak, and
say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains,
and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce
wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people." Exodus 32:10-12
"And He (Jesus) Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 John 2:2
"I
tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me
witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual
grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from
Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are
Israelites..." Romans 9:1-4
K_k: Is it so crazy to want to suffer rather than see even the wicked be condemned?
i
think you are supporting my point here Kk... Paul was talking about his
covenant people. Abraham was concerned for his people and Lot. I
understand what you are saying ... but the gospel is not just good
news... after the good news comes the bad news. I just do not want to
use the bible to support my point... i mean in a counter argument.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
3475
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Is it REALLY All God?
|
on: May 08, 2010, 11:51:33 AM
|
So
if we choose to act according to His impulse, inspiration, directions
and empowerment, in loving gratitude to Him and in loving service to
others, then we have been faithful kid/servants. And we will know
without any question that we have only done what was required by His
love in that situation.
It is very simple... we chose based
upon our strongest desire. Or we chose for ourselves what we want. Our
desires are the cause and not the act of the will. If a man chooses what
he does not want then that doesnt make sense. And because desire is the
cause then the power to do something is in the weight of the force. So
that if the desire is weak then it is impossible that it will move the
will to that choice. Its like a scale. On the one end you have 19 pounds
and on the other end you have 10 pounds. It would be impossible for the
10 to pull the scale down. So it is with the causes of our choices. So
we are always under the principle of necessity. Necessity is that it
cannot possibly be any different. All of our choices are necessary
because we chose what we are most pleased with. They are necessary there
is no such thing as a causeless choice. We do not always choose what we
know is rite.. we chose what we are most pleased with at that time. We
go from impossibility to possibility. At different parts of our lives it
is impossible that we are able to have a desire to chose what we know
is rite. Because we must grow in our understanding and our religious
affections to desire good things over the bad. If we fail it is because
we were pleased to fail. If we are presented with two equal
choices then that is no choice at all since there is no stronger desire.
But this is an impossible explanation of liberty of choice because
nothing exist to prove there is a choice. Its just like two equal
weights on a scale. There is no movement because they balance each other
out. That is not choice. If a person believes that he has a self
determined will then he believes in a causeless choice. If the choice is
causeless then the image he has of his power is relinquished to be in
the object of the choice. He will basically live under the principle of
will worship. He will see that he has no power ... the object has all
the power.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
3478
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: A Quote on Grace and Free Will... Discuss
|
on: May 08, 2010, 09:53:42 AM
|
toadbat:
"..the dead aren't interested in "new life"; they like being dead just
fine thanks. That is why God had to call us forth (not coax us) from
death to life (like Lazarus)." K_k: Jesus called Lazarus forth
by imparting new life into his dead body, which coaxes one to get up
from the grave. Try it sometime. You'll feel coaxed. Some coaxing is
more effective than other kinds. His is best.  thor:
"Like all gifts and attributes that God gives to men, faith is a tool
to use or not use. When faith is not used it is merely an intellectual
ascent or position. When faith is used, it takes on the form of an
active trust. Trust is faith in application." K_k: Bingo! "There
is no one who does good... no not one... there is no one who
understands... there is no one who seeks after God... all have turned
aside... they all together have become corrupted." If men are dead in
sins and trespasses then this is what God says about them. This is why
it is dangerous to spend our lives trying to clean the outside of the
cup... while in our hearts are all kinds of adulteries ... murders...
etc. We medicate ourselves by avoiding the only remedy. The only answer
for our sin is His grace. But our problem is not that we are dealing
with sin... but our problem is we invent ways to feel worthy in having
an ability to get up enough strength and cooperation with other people
to keep ourselves in check. So in facing the power of sin we form an
alliance with the flesh so that we can ... on the one hand feel good
about sharing in Christ redemption...and on the other hand .. have a
memory of our sense of worth in ceasing to do that sin. This is
buttressed by our desire to clear our conscience. We list the sins and
we do anything we can to keep ourselves from the temptation. The way
we look at this process of becoming righteous is through a set of
principles in which we know we have gained the victory over these listed
sins. We develop a way of thinking in which we have all of these stop
gap procedures of protection. We call this the christian sanctification
process. First we fail to see that there is no 50 50 way of
dealing with ourselves. The 50 percent of our responsibility is one side
of circular reasoning. And the other 50 percent is our imagination of
these spiritual properties. We are people who have been given a desire
to know God. So there are many avenues in which we learn to seek a god.
All men seek after a god. THat is a given. There are many words to
define what that looks like. This is why seeking in itself is a form of
alienation to God. In other words the scripture defines the human race
as those who know God and those who seek after a god. The reason that
the whole human race has this god consciousness is because in Adam we
have become our own god. This is why our own goodness and effort is our
blindness. Because even if we become blameless in the since of the
religious communities standards ...our measurement of ourselves is more
antagonistic toward God than if we were a beggar for bread. Because we
always fall back on our own ability to become better christians. So that
when we make an effort to move along to better our lives we create our
own image of what it is we want to be. We develop these characters in
our minds that are these christian values of redeeming qualities that
have an equal authority with our own effort to apply them. So that when
the natural process of guilt and shame are produced in us from our
failures we react in an effort to silence this pain. So we produce
forgiveness and reconciliation as a way to check ourselves by the
standard of goodness. We are a god unto ourselves.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
3480
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
|
on: May 06, 2010, 03:21:37 PM
|
|
We build this huge theology of sin in order to
keep some discipline in the church. But the theology of the cross is
not mainly a theology of sin. It is a proclamation of the new position
in Christ that we have. Because in His final moments after God had
judged sin... Christ said "It is finished." That means that the
predominate message of the cross is that there is a new heritage ... a
new family in which Christ is the high priest ... prophet -king. In
other words the cross is predominately sharing in the sacrament of the
Lords supper. It is receiving new life from Christ in the grace of the
sacrament.Christ is the victor who has taken all the spoils of war and
now we are awaiting the final renewal when we shall see the grace that
we are looking forward two. Now we preach that there is a new family
that has been won at the cross for all eternity.
This is why
the penitent psalms have this battle flavor and not just a plea for
forgiveness and mourning over sin. There is another Psalm that is like
Psalm51 but it is inverted. Both Psalms are focused on Gods forgiveness.
And this is why the issue of identity is soooo important. Because
identity speaks of assurance more than a receiving of something. The
Holy Spirit has a new residence in a sinful believer. It is assurance
through the method of teaching grace to the heart so that we are assured
of our identity in Christ. This is why when we approach the throne of
grace we are coming as needy children to a loving Father. The first
issue is our concern for our own name. It is that we would not be put to
shame. When a person is subject to total dependence and passiveness in
receiving power then the connection to the vine is always a necessary
flow of the life of Christ.
We are looking to have the understanding
of the power that is available to us for the asking. This is why our
identity is dependent upon His upholding His name in us. So that in
receiving this assurance of power we are talking to our Father in the
most personal terms. We are acknowledging our need. We are more and more
understanding how needy we become. This is kind of receiving something
out of a general understanding of our propensity to stray. So in some
ways and in some instances the process of dependent prayer is painful.
But when we have unburdened our hearts then we have a renewed connection
to assurance and a freedom to fellowship with the Spirit.
Now in
learning dependence God sometimes withdraws this instant assurance and
pleasure so that we are encouraged to come with more fervency. He is
stretching our faith in this withdrawal. It may be accompanied by a
season of intense struggle with sin or sorrow. In a way we go from
seasons of intense assurance to being drawn out into seeking with more
of a need to return to the pleasure. But God is teaching us that it
always was in the praying that He was communicating His assurance and
not necessarily in the returns. Because the returns are mixed with the
flesh in a way that is not always dependable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
No comments:
Post a Comment