3541	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Undermining Grace-The Bully Syndrome	on: April 22, 2010, 12:29:13 PM
Infused grace is an expression of refuge theology and not exposure. The christian goes from a state of condemnation to a state of freedom. Now that is the believers position on this earth not the old theo about position and practice or that dastardly two dog monstrosity. Now all of our expressions in refuge theo is protection from and curses out. There is no in between holding pattern of a vacuum in this world. That is a form of self destruction. We are dealing with real men on both sides not some kind of actor or personality profile. And we are dealing with a cursed state or a state of bliss and rejoicing. This is why the church is radical. Because we identify with each other because we have a new enthroned King in the reality of our shared refuge. We are vessels who receive gifts and give them to others. Please read this carefully.   I would just say do not enforce self destruction.
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3542  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Tithing - no matter what? on: April 22, 2010, 12:15:35 PM Quote from: Willis on April 22, 2010, 11:36:48 AM But keep in mind that God may not want our money at all! How much more does someone admire a well-made, sincere gift that took you time and effort to make? If you are like me, it is often easier to just send someone a check or gift card "so they can get what they want" rather than expend the effort to choose a gift from the heart. That's just laziness on my part! It is easy for people to drop their money (even 10% or more) into an offering plate and then feel their obligations have been met. That would be like giving a wife an allowance but then having nothing else to do with her. That would be a sham of a marriage. We are in a marriage relationship with Jesus Christ and as such it involves a lot more than just money.   Its interesting that when it talks about worship as a procession that is going to the temple the phrase in the ot is that He "received gifts" from men. But when the Apostle uses this phrase he changes it to He "gave gifts" to men. A rather new way in Christ economy of worship post cross.   Reply Quote Notify

3543  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Undermining Grace-The Bully Syndrome on: April 22, 2010, 11:33:00 AM The bible talks about all communication as a form of counsel. It does not separate counsel from the word of God. There is only two ways of this earth. There is the way of the righteous and the way of the wicked. In the covenant it is expressed as a community of love toward the fatherless and the widow. Because a person who lives in dependence on God is one who experiences a community of covenant faithfulness. That is a community that upholds the doctrines of grace. It usurps the authorities of this world because we only have one King. That is why the curses have been lifted against these generations. Because in the covenant community we have a real refuge from all of the relationships that are of an accusing nature. We are Gods sheep and we are protect from the wolves of self effort. If we are not concerned about Gods infused grace then we will not be covenant faithful people.   People have this idea the the church is an institution of giving grace. But grace is not just something we get from the elements. Its a freedom that we have in the love and faithfulness we share in the use of all of these means both public and private. A person who takes these means for granted will fall prey to institutional secularism. If we say that total depravity equals no responsibility to use scripture as a way of experiencing freedom then we commit spiritual suicide. Its like everyone is in a relationship of shallow people because that would be pride expressed as a way of growing in our private responsibilities. Its like the theology of two meta physical realities in one man at the same time. The law of non contradiction... the christian life is not expressed as a contradiction but a power expressed through us. If there is a vacuum it must be filled. The vacuum is not humility. Again that is worm theology. But if we say that every minute on this earth matters in how we are going to spend eternity then it matters what we do with what God has given us in the sequence of time. This is why we must extend the kingdom through the idea that we have the will of God and what we will is what He wills. That is the way from the psychosis of a mans self examination. That is because we are in Christ our confidence is freedom from the curse of sin and the law as expressed in our relationships. It means that we have no power to change another person. Because our power is in the name of Christ . We only live because He is upholding His name in that express of His will in our wills. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3544  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Undermining Grace-The Bully Syndrome on: April 22, 2010, 11:20:40 AM When we were born again we were made completely new. The reason that we are secure in our person is because of our identity in Christ and not in any other way to find our social identity. Because when we were made new we were given a new will. Our old will was destroyed and now all of the change that we experience is from our understanding of the Perfect Man. We have no power in ourselves to fix ourselves. Although we have been given a new will yet we are not completely made new in our practice. But we must not go in a path in which we examine ourselves in a way that we must meet a standard. But we are being changed by grace. The authority we have is not from a man or another god but its Christ love expressed directly to us in the use of the means. So that our relationships are the out growth of our understanding of Christ love. This love constrains us because it frees us to find a place of refuge in our rejection from others. Because men who think about things outside of irresistible grace and covenant perseverance develop systems that are a form of bullying a person. Because it is not our responsibility to bring our wills under His reign. That is a matter of grace as a pre ability to act according to our desires.  This is why we are not to offend each other as a way of being made whole. Because it is not a persons responsibility to change another person. The grace theology goes through the whole process of change. It is not equal to any other power expressed. The devil wants us to change through the flesh. He wants to expose us for frauds. He designs a scheme to destroy our faith. This is a subtle religious set of desires that we must contend with in the opposition of His way of using men. Some times we must fight in hand to hand combat. This struggle with the accusations of the devil are life and death. This is why the Apostle cursed the self righteous. Because they were eager to offend Gods little ones. If we are going to be children in our trust then we must define it as no ability or power to change unless He makes us change. We live in a world where doctrine is separated from practice. If we say that a friend is one who watches out for us without a real concern for his own soul in the doctrines of grace then we argue against the very things we are suppose to do in order to see the grace of God as being infused directly to us and not through a human agent. In other words because we consider ourselves children in our trust then we see the powerlessness to change not just that we come to the realization that we are totally depraved. That is worm theology.  We should be made to find all of our hope and trust in Christ alone for our salvation. We are both public people and private people. In private we live our lives before God just as we do in our relationships. Our longs... focus ... end of doing things is glorify God because we cannot experience true freedom unless we are loved by God alone. This is not an encouragement to decide for another person how we are to make them do things. This is that there are only to designs to change in this world. There is inability and then able. That is why we live by grace and not by sight.     Remove Reply Quote Notify

3545  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Undermining Grace-The Bully Syndrome on: April 22, 2010, 04:58:02 AM The opposition is not necessarily explainable. This is why we are not the means to oppose it. We are just the vessels of grace. The uncertainty of what we are opposing is buttressed by what we think about our past and the trials that we find ourselves in. So that we do not completely understand the nature of the freedom we are seeking. Grace demands that we place ourselves before God in our present trials as completely dependent upon Him for the outcome. Because life is not a strait line but its being in the valley so that we feel like our world is becoming very small. Our first natural response is to try to figure out where we went wrong. But if we try to do things that are not pleasing to God in an effort to stop Him from ending something that we are certain is  what we view needs to be done then we may not keep in His safe refuge about what we cannot see. We are in danger of presupposing what we only know in our own minds about ourselves and an over focus on our needs rather than staying on the path against these spiritual forces. We are not dealing primarily with men, or institution, or personal hurts. We are dealing with an uncommon foe.  This is the way christian opposition is experienced. It really is not a fight against the pharisees and reprobation. These people are just being used as instruments to push us in a forceful way. God does not explain what He is doing in lite of all of the opposition we experience. This is why we do not fight in a direct way. The most important motive in facing opposition is that we must not go outside of what is our personal safe dependence on God. It is His power and His wisdom that we seek first in order to defend ourselves from an opposition we do not entirely understand.  This is why a mature believer will know when he is being opposed by the force of a way of thinking as if he is wrestling with the spirit of evil. Because opposition against a believer could be an accusation, a slander, or a personal hatred. All opposition against the way of grace is brought on by a disregard for the law as it is to protect and defend our brothers. This is why a novice or even a mature believer could be used as the opposition to do harm to the work of God. Because we are dealing with a crafty blunt force method. If you look at how God judges fools you will see that it is always a sudden judgment. Thats because opposition comes at the believer in a surprising way and its as if we fall into a trap. It may seem like we are part of the problem. But again God does not change in how He opposes men. He only has one way. The problems of come in how we become unsettled and distressed. Because we want to know the entire reason and we are susceptible to be used by the Devil. Because opposition is much bigger than we can figure out.    Remove Reply Quote Notify

3546  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Divorce on: April 21, 2010, 10:08:40 PM Marriage is a covenant between two people in the presence of God. So there is no reason to separate unless there is physical abuse or adultery. And also abandonment of the physical relationship. So in a christian marriage there really are three people. Its like a triangle. They both are subject to Christ. If they both love Christ then they will get their deep needs met by being loved by Christ. This is a daily practice of mortification.. or putting the flesh to death by the Spirit. A healthy intake of the word and praying at all times. If one of the partners is not glorifying and enjoying God then they are going to be frustrated cause there is a confusion about relationship. Thats why its a triangle. That puts it in perspective. Cause you cant change if the vertical relationship is not there for one of the partners. I mean he can try counseling to renew the covenant. God takes covenants very seriously. What happens if one of the partners divorces for the wrong reasons it raises the chances of a shortened life or a life full of problems... temptations out of control etc.  People think that just because they will get freedom that it will make it much easier than all the marriage problems. But usually it leads to untold temptations and problems. I would try getting a pneumatic type counselor as a third party to reconcile. Or a pastor if he is attending church.  Reply Quote Notify

3547  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why do our opinions differ? on: April 21, 2010, 08:20:25 PM Quote from: Obed on April 21, 2010, 08:15:37 PM I'd agree with most of what you're saying Willis.  But my point is that we never find in the NT an explicate abrogation of the Sacrificial system.  The closest we get is when the author of Hebrews says in 8:13 "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."  Note, this passage is in the language of the future tense, not the passed tense.  He didn't say, "has become obsolete and has vanished away."  Again, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusions (or many of KK's or others' for that matter).  I'm just pointing out that we're making interpretations through reason, tradition, or whatever to come to those conclusions.  This is not Sola Scriptura. I think that's the reason why playing "Scripture Verse Pokemon" never seems to solve any disagreements.  We're all approaching things with prejudices and different interpretations.  We need more than verse slinging.  We need to explain why these verses support our conclusions.  We need to explain our reasoning that incorporates the verses. The Hebrews teaching is Christ fulfilled the sacrifice so that if they go back to the ot sacrificial system then they would be re crucifying Christ again. In other words there would no longer remain a sacrifice because they rejected the only one that does away with sin. Reply Quote Notify

3548  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: ETERNAL PREDESTINATION OF GOD John Calvin on: April 21, 2010, 08:09:13 PM But Pighius and his fellows are not hereby satisfied. For, pretending a great concern for the honour of God, they bark at us, as imputing to Him a cruelty utterly foreign to His nature. Pighius denies that he has any contest with God. What cause, or whose cause is it, then, that Paul maintains? After he had adopted the above axiom?that God hardens whom He will and has mercy on whom He will?he subjoins the supposed taunt of a wicked reasoner: " Why doth He yet find fault ? For who hath resisted His will?" (Rom. ix. 19.) He meets such blasphemy as this by simply setting against it the power of God. If those clothe God with the garment of a tyrant, who refer the hardening of men even to His eternal counsel, we most certainly are not the originators of this doctrine. If they do God an injury who set His will above all other causes, Paul taught this doctrine long before us. Let these enemies of God, then, dispute the matter with the apostle. For I maintain nothing, in the present discussion, but what I declare is taught by him. About these barking dogs, however,I would not be very anxious. I am the rather moved with an anxiety about some otherwise good men, who, while they fear lest they should ascribe to God anything unworthy of His goodness, really seem to be horror-struck at that which He declares, by the apostle, concerning Himself. Now, we are holding fast, all the while, a godly purpose of vindicating the justice of God from all calumny. And the modesty of these timid ones would be worthy of all praise, if it were not the offspring of moroseness, inflated with a certain secret pride. For such men speak according to their own natural sense and understanding. But why do they fear to concede to the power of God that which is beyond the power of their own mind to comprehend, lest His justice should be endangered? Why, I say, is this? It is because they presume to subject the tribunal of God to their own judgment. Now Paul shows us that it is an act of intolerable pride in any man to assume to himself the judgment of his brother, because there is one Judge by whom we all stand or fall, and to whom every knee must bow. What madness is it, then, for a man to raise his crest against this only Judge Himself, and to presume to measure His infinite power by natural sense! They, therefore, who allege as an excuse that modesty prevents them from subscribing to the Apostle Paul's testimony, must of necessity, in the first place, confess that whatever praise they give to the justice of God is restricted to the bounds of their own natural comprehensions. And in the next place, if agreeing in reality with us, they choose rather to suppress this part of the great doctrine, lest they should give rein to the insolence of the wicked, such caution is quite preposterous. As if the honour of God could be protected by our lies! God Himself not only rejects such protection as this, but declares, in the Book of Job, that it is hateful to Him. Let such defenders take care, lest by affecting greater caution than the Lord prescribes in His Word, they become guilty of a twofold madness and folly. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3549  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 21, 2010, 05:33:20 PM Elsewhere Paul draws a sharp distinction between an apostleship and lesser functions, as in I Corinthians 12:28: "And God hath set some in the church; first, apostles; secondarily, prophets; thirdly, teachers." He mentions the apostles first because they were appointed directly by God. Matthias was called in this manner. The apostles chose two candidates and then cast lots, praying that God would indicate which one He would have. To be an apostle he had to have his appointment from God. In the same manner Paul was called as the apostle of the Gentiles. The call is not to be taken lightly. For a person to possess knowledge is not enough. He must be sure that he is properly called. Those who operate without a proper call seek no good purpose. God does not bless their labors. They may be good preachers, but they do no edify. Many of the fanatics of our day pronounce words of faith, but they bear no good fruit, because their purpose is to turn men to their perverse opinions. On the other hand, those who have a divine call must suffer a good deal of opposition in order that they may become fortified against the running attacks of the devil and the world. This is our comfort in the ministry, that ours is a divine office to which we have been divinely called. Reversely, what an awful thing it must be for the conscience if one is not properly called. It spoils one's best work. When I was a young man I thought Paul was making too much of his call. I did not understand his purpose. I did not then realize the importance of the ministry. I knew nothing of the doctrine of faith because we were taught sophistry instead of certainty, and nobody understood spiritual boasting. We exalt our calling, not to gain glory among men, or money, or satisfaction, or favor, but because people need to be assured that the words we speak are the words of God. This is no sinful pride. It is holy pride. sophistry- a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning. 2. a false argument; sophism. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3550  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 21, 2010, 05:30:40 PM Paul takes pride in his ministry, not to his own praise but to the praise of God. Writing to the Romans, he declares, "Inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office," i.e., I want to be received not as Paul of Tarsus, but as Paul the apostle and ambassador of Jesus Christ, in order that people might be more eager to hear. Paul exalts his ministry out of the desire to make known the name, the grace, and the mercy of God. VERSE 1. Paul, an apostle, (not of men, etc.) Paul loses no time in defending himself against the charge that he had thrust himself into the ministry. He says to the Galatians: "My call may seem inferior to you. But those who have come to you are either called of men or by man. My call is the highest possible, for it is by Jesus Christ, and God the Father." When Paul speaks of those called "by men," I take it he means those whom neither God nor man sent, but who go wherever they like and speak for themselves. When Paul speaks of those called "by man" I take it he means those who have a divine call extended to them through other persons. God calls in two ways. Either He calls ministers through the agency of men, or He calls them directly as He called the prophets and apostles. Paul declares that the false apostles were called or sent neither by men, nor by man. The most they could claim is that they were sent by others. "But as for me I was called neither of men, nor by man, but directly by Jesus Christ. My call is in every respect like the call of the apostles. In fact I am an apostle." Luther commentary Galatians Remove Reply Quote Notify

3551  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: April 21, 2010, 05:24:29 PM Love John 15:12 - Love one another Romans 5:13 - Don't pass judgment on one another Romans 12:5 - Be members of one another Romans 12:10 - Honor one another Romans 12:16 - Live in harmony with one another Romans 14:19 - Build up one another Romans 15:5 - Be like-minded toward one another Romans 15:7 - Accept one another 1 Corinthians 12:25 - Care for one another Galatians 5:13 - Serve one another in love Galatians 5:26 - Don't provoke or envy one another Galatians 6:2 - Bear one another's burdens Ephesians 4:32 - Be kind to one another Colossians 3:13 - Bear with each other and forgive one another 1 Thessalonians 3:12 - Abound in love toward one another 1 Thessalonians 4:18 - Comfort one another Titus 3:3 - Don't hate one another Hebrews 3:13 - Encourage one another Hebrews 10:24 - Stir up one another to love and good deeds James 4:11 - Don't slander one another James 5:9 - Don't bear grudges against one another James 5:16 - Confess your sins to one another 1 Peter 4:9 - Offer hospitality to one another 1 Peter 5:14 - Greet one another 1 John 1:7 - Fellowship with one another 1 John 3:11 - Love one another Ephesians 5:21- submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3552  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Undermining Grace-The Bully Syndrome on: April 21, 2010, 04:19:04 PM Quote from: toadbat on April 21, 2010, 04:12:40 PM Yes, Mbg, this world's value system is one gigantic performance-bully alright. There is nothing - but nothing - of unmerited favor in even the sublimest of pronouncements from those who have been vested by both pop-culture and media to be this age's ideological spokesman for the canon of what is "acceptable." The only thing "unmerited" is the credibility given to same. This is so true... we no longer are under the temptation to feel hate... we live in it every day. I really enjoy your input TB. Thanks .. hope to read more of your post. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3553  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 21, 2010, 04:02:45 PM Quote from: THOR on April 21, 2010, 03:42:19 PM Ok, but that's a very big stretch from that to invent a covenant that replaces the New Convent exclusively mention in the prophets, by Jesus and the Apostles. Romans 5 doesn't even say a thing about a covenant...not even a word, so how do you get a covenant from the actual text without extensive midrashing. You should be talking all the time about the New Covenant with Judah and the House of Israel. After all Paul says we are grafted into Israel so we can be partakers of the New Covenant. Let us not add to and detract from God's Word so we might know the actual truth...even if it contradicts our long term perceptions derived from the speculations of others. Thor Salvation is always by grace alone through faith alone ... in Christ alone. The covenant of grace has been established through Gods covenant with Abraham. The Abrahamic covenant was given so the people could look forward to all of the promises being fulfilled in Christ. All of the ot ceremonies had no power in themselves. It was always Gods way of infusing grace to the people in the elements. The New Covenant is a promise that God would give the Spirit to a person in a new kind of authority. Because of all of the requirements of the ceremonial laws the idea of repentance was one of performance in order to show repentance. But under the New Covenant .. Christ rule is a kingdom rule in the hearts of His people who look to Christ as the fulfillment of the law. The old covenant had more of the weight of the law as a schoolmaster. The New Covenant is that Christ fulfilled the law and offers freedom from the law. I do not mean to say that the ot remnant was not able to glorify God and enjoy Him but there were more obstacles to think about. Now repentance is preach in Christ alone. Although in worship the ot idea of justification by faith was fully revealed. I mean we can use the Psalms in a better way...they do not have that ceremonial flavor.  Remove Reply Quote Notify

3554	Forums / Theology Forum / Undermining Grace-The Bully Syndrome	on: April 21, 2010, 03:48:19 PM
The statistics are that teens who experience bullying are most susceptible to suicide. This is because we live in a grace starved society. Sin is not just an act to prove a statistic. But it is a living form as a meta physical curse. Where ever sin reigns it becomes a source of conflict as a form of rape in a mental way. Because sin is not just an act ...but its an opposition to all that brings about salvation. This is the cursed disease as an opposition to grace. This is why the Apostle confronted the self- righteous enemies of the church by cursing them. Sin is like a physical defect. The visible effects of sin cannot be removed ... because sin leaves a scar on its victims. This is a definition of experiencing the pain of sin as like it is a visible curse. It is the same way in the spiritual sense. Sin is raping the gospel of all of its power and bringing men under the power of evil dominance. We must say that this kind of sin is a spirit of bondage that is a curse where ever it is encouraged. It saps the church of the power of grace to be fully effective in the salvation and transformation in a healing way. When men treat these doctrines of grace as a balance between the response to the law and the need for confrontation with the encouragement of Gods covenant love ... they do not practice the disposition of the holistic disposition of covenant faithfulness. This is why the curse of dominance is the spirit by which real grace is opposed. I will continue to write about this. 3560  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why do our opinions differ? on: April 21, 2010, 10:09:54 AM Quote from: daveed on April 20, 2010, 02:38:44 PM People are interesting... If they say something like "sola scriptura" then that theoretically would mean that the bible is self explanatory. Sometimes it is. sometimes it isn't. at times where it isn't I believe one should go back to the culture that the Book came out of in order to understand it better. otherwise if one assumes that the bible can explain itself and tries not to use any other tradition or culture to help interpret then they will fall prey to their own perspective which is not right. "your thoughts are not my thoughts neither are my thoughts your thoughts" "lean not on your own understanding" Yet one should not only do what I have described above but also one should take advantage of the teacher that G-d has sent to us. THS. Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' " Gods provision of food is common...but spiritual food is absolutely necessary for the whole man. Since Gods word determines events then nothing exist apart from His will. He is the cause of all of the vitality of life.. all other beings are subject to death. Gods revelation is who He is as eternally present. Our problems are not our knowledge of that word but it is believing that it defines all the future events in our lives. When we steal a false image of His reality we decide to determine our own pathway.  Reply Quote Notify 3561  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 20, 2010, 01:11:32 PM Quote from: THOR on April 20, 2010, 12:39:48 PM Most Temple sacrifices dealt with unintentional sins not deliberate sins. There were no sacrifices for deliberate or highhanded sins. The only thing an Israelite could do for highhanded sin was to repent and confess His/her sin to God and have faith God forgave him. The only sacrifice that covered all types of sin was the sacrifices on Yom Kippur or the Day of Atonement. That is why that festival was so important to Israel and why Hebrews compares Christ sacrifice to that day. Faith, Repentance and confession was always required as it has always been. The only thing that is different now is placing our faith in Messiah and trusting in His blood the cover our sin. Thor Most Christians are completely misinformed about the Temple sacrifice system because they don't read Leviticus or any OT books. They prefer to arrive at the truth though guessing! The Israelite lived under the law grace covenants. God made a covenant with Abraham that He would bless Abraham's offspring in this covenant that was one sided. God determined to have a people to place His love on for all eternity. He told Abraham that number of these people would be as the stars of heaven. God cannot deny Himself. This is why when the Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the Israelite free... God took the Pharaohs first born and all the first born because God look on Israel as if it were His only Son. Then there was the law. Given at mount Sinai. This covenant had a stipulation. You were require to keep it in order to be blessed by God. But it was never going to be kept. So God gave them the sacrifices. But the sacrifices could not wipe away sin. Only Gods covenant of grace could be trusted in to persevere through their trials and sin. There was no hope in their own promises to obey. The only hope was in the covenant God made with Abraham.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3562  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Tithing - no matter what? on: April 20, 2010, 12:54:55 PM After many yrs of church going and having to deal with a highly mobile economy with a religious economical attention to meeting these needs. There are emotional... physical...family...spiritual... etc. I have come to the conclusion that there are two views in this life. I am not saying this is 50 50 two line. If it were two line then the pastor would swear upon his life that he would stay put until he passed on. The entire christian nation would be concerned about keeping the churchs the same size. There would be a limit. People would be chosen to start another church.. not asked. The congregants would be employees of the church with a basic utility function. There would be a redistribution program for the poor. And on an on and on blah blah blah... practice ...rrrrrite.  But this is not the case as you can see. We are dealing with people and relationships. Individuals who have an emotional... spiritual... and physical set of limits that do not equal in strength. So that we have our wants on the one hand our our view of what is reality on the other. I think the bible deals with us in how we think ...first ... and if we are thinking rite then our path will be fully active in peoples lives in that balance of reminding ourselves daily .. how we are required to think. This will make us keep our covenants because you can never trust situations to be the same from one day to another. This is why i spend so much time thinking about His way of thinking.   Reply Quote Notify 3563  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 20, 2010, 07:40:45 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 20, 2010, 02:25:16 AM mbG:  "The focus in the OT is not on mans gifts and sacrifices but on God who is faithful to save men." K_k:  I would say the focus is on God training man to look to Him for the definition and resolution of sin.  Which would include, i believe, some degree of revelation of the coming Messiah to those whose hearts were "tuned in" to the reality behind the symbols of the sacrificial system. mbG(Luther?):  "As the ambassador of a government is honored for his office and not for his private person, so the minister of Christ should exalt his office in order to gain authority among men." K_k:  The Holy Spirit is quite able to exalt any messenger who is being used by God as an ambassador.  The minister doesn't have to "exalt his office in order to gain authority".  He just needs to serve Christ and let the Spirit lift up his work.  True authority is established by our Dad, not by us. What people in this day and age think the OT focus is all about is not really the same as our circumstances of the availability of all of the choices in life. This is why our focus on man dealing with sin as the motif was not the focus in ot Judaism. The focus was on Gods covenant of love which put the people in rite relationship with one another. This is the reason for all of these reminders of what God had done in the past. Because there was a rich culture of Gods miraculous  deliverance and Gods care in His gifts of their inheritance ...they were predominately a celebratory people. It wasnt even the daily sins that they were warned about.. but it was the sin of apostasy. They may have been inherently more susceptible to that sin than post grace people.  But our sin is not like theirs. We do not consider Gods covenant of love in a knowledge that He has willed it to be. We Americans love our choices.        3566  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 19, 2010, 06:07:17 PM Against these boasting, false apostles, Paul boldly defends his apostolic authority and ministry. Humble man that he was, he will not now take a back seat. He reminds them of the time when he opposed Peter to his face and reproved the chief of the apostles. Paul devotes the first two chapters to a defense of his office and his Gospel, affirming that he received it, not from men, but from the Lord Jesus Christ by special revelation, and that if he or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel than the one he had preached, he shall be accursed. The Certainty of Our Calling Every minister should make much of his calling and impress upon others the fact that he has been delegated by God to preach the Gospel. As the ambassador of a government is honored for his office and not for his private person, so the minister of Christ should exalt his office in order to gain authority among men. This is not vain glory, but needful glorying. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3567  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 19, 2010, 05:08:27 PM Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (1535) – Chapter 1 by Martin Luther Translated by Theodore Graebner CHAPTER 1 VERSE 1. Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead). St. Paul wrote this epistle because, after his departure from the Galatian churches, Jewish-Christian fanatics moved in, who perverted Paul's Gospel of man's free justification by faith in Christ Jesus. The world bears the Gospel a grudge because the Gospel condemns the religious wisdom of the world. Jealous for its own religious views, the world in turn charges the Gospel with being a subversive and licentious doctrine, offensive to God and man, a doctrine to be persecuted as the worst plague on earth. As a result we have this paradoxical situation: The Gospel supplies the world with the salvation of Jesus Christ, peace of conscience, and every blessing. Just for that the world abhors the Gospel. These Jewish-Christian fanatics who pushed themselves into the Galatian churches after Paul's departure, boasted that they were the descendants of Abraham, true ministers of Christ, having been trained by the apostles themselves, that they were able to perform miracles. In every way they sought to undermine the authority of St. Paul. They said to the Galatians: "You have no right to think highly of Paul. He was the last to turn to Christ. But we have seen Christ. We heard Him preach. Paul came later and is beneath us. It is possible for us to be in error--we who have received the Holy Ghost? Paul stands alone. He has not seen Christ, nor has he had much contact with the other apostles. Indeed, he persecuted the Church of Christ for a long time." When men claiming such credentials come along, they deceive not only the naive, but also those who seemingly are well-established in the faith. This same argument is used by the papacy. "Do you suppose that God for the sake of a few Lutheran heretics would disown His entire Church? Or do you suppose that God would have left His Church floundering in error all these centuries?" The Galatians were taken in by such arguments with the result that Paul's authority and doctrine were drawn in question. 3570  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why do our opinions differ? on: April 18, 2010, 03:08:46 PM Quote from: spockrates on April 15, 2010, 06:51:03 PM Quote from: mybigGod on April 15, 2010, 10:16:40 AM ... It provides us with the doctrine of Gods saving example on this earth of two people fellow shipping in the Christian sanctifying way. This is why sin is personal in its identifying the consequences upon the one committing the sin and not just on the sin itself. Do not be unequally yoked with an unbeliever for what fellowship is there between light and darkness? ... The christian is a man who first describes reality in how He is connected to all of the personal immunations of Divine persons in his entire being. ... God never changes. He is both a loving God and a wrathful God. That is He personally judged all men at the cross unto all eternity. But God is eternal and He determined the outcome before the creation of the world. ... Deep thoughts, MBG!  Please tell me.  Would you say that God has determined that you and others follow this example? Quote Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children 2and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. (Ephesians 5:1-3) Spock... you seem to be exhibiting a bit of emotional response here... we need to have the doctor examine you to see if some other space creature has taken over your thinking powers... o man... i remember the old Star trek...beam me up doctor... great Scott. But God has a disposition of love. I think we become a slave to anger by our lack of the understanding of this assurance of His love. I do not really think there is a law to observe ... i mean... anger from others does not control us... thats mystical and foolish. Nor is there a law of love that demands a response in order for us to be released from some kind of so called dark anger... thats just immaturity as an adult. We live in a hostile universe. People kill with kindness. People form ideas about things because they are susceptible to the peer pressure of this modern day focus on the behaviors of health. The world is a place where it no longer is a temptation to hate..but living in it is a hate filled experience. It waxs people cold. So there is all of this child like peer pleasing that we must face. Because we do not like to be hateful when we are dealing with someones bullying. And when we get alone we do not know how to extinguish this from our souls. So we learn to receive a level of hardship in this. But every anger that comes at us is a form of an identity. First it is a word to make us into something in the form of a threat. Anger that is directed to us is like a law of death. We wax cold under this constant communication. God warns us not to associate with an angry person. Some of us cannot escape this... being bullied in marriage or at work. So this is a very real temptation. Some people just learn that forgiveness and communication must be practiced. But a bully does not change unless he is faced with the reality that he has devised a scheme in order to control people. I am not using physiological language here because i think these are the kinds of situations that make us a persevering prayer warrior. We must deal with foolishness by avoiding it but at the same time we must deal with ourselves in a realistic way about it. Some of us can fight in a way that some other people have not the mental capacity or the will to do. So this is very pragmatic. But in my own life i have seen these things resolved without my direct intervention so that i enjoy a level of comfort and consolation. Christians define community. 3571  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: April 18, 2010, 01:36:15 PM In my past experience  (I have a lot of past experience in all of this modern day methodology. I will compare it to the yrs i have in the experience of the biblical methodology.There is no power in weak systems.. Psalmist renewal is in order.)i am defining the pit falls as i am relating to all of the feelings of psychological nature as different from those of a renewed disposition. These inward sorrows have some connection in these two areas but there are very different designs in the language of how we discern the truth about them. Because we are dealing with a mixture of love and hate in lite of how we are made to imagine these things as they relate to the new self. There are distinct communications in all of these assumptions of a counsel that have no lasting power in how we understand Gods making all things whole. Our own words and thoughts determine how we are going to see the holistic design of our healing Shepherd. This area of exploration is very susceptible to the danger of subverting a truth in the relief of the condition from the sorrow. To meet the ends of a work on the soul it must be a stirring effect. Because God demands that a renewed idea is not from a mans thoughts originally. These determinism's of ideas are the reality of transformation and not a means to transformation. We are dealing with a form of communicated counsel that will determine a distinct path we take to wholeness. In my experience these two kinds of counsel oppose each other.  If you want to have a deep level of understanding then you must memorize the entire book of Psalms. I am saying that i am farther along on this journey and i take this as life and death. But we need to see that real renewed effects come from a communication that is not from man. The ideas of conversion are directed in a real world and not from a world of psychological profile. These ideas are only images that spring from the mind of man to define this world of the meta physical as if the world were like the profile. So that a man who has much sorrow has characters that are real as it relates to his own feelings of sorrow. We must see that the biblical world of reality is a world of real friends and real enemies. Actual people. The psychological profiling is a universal illusion. Because God spoke in eternity past and He determined all existence of reality. Therefore all reality is spoken to man that defines reality. So that God determines who is a friend and who is an enemy. This is real people. This is why we have this ability to speak to ourselves in a real adversarial mindset as if God had decided to bring on His final judgment and subsequent real rule. We live as if every day we are standing before the tribunal of God. And we come down in our communication to the awful circumstances of the sorrow of this world.. the destructive nature of dominance of men... the weakness that cannot be understood out of that sorrow and the experience of Gods faithful ear to undue all of this inward conflict with a simple word. This is terribly important we must explore this counseling conflict.     Remove Reply Quote Notify 3572  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 18, 2010, 10:50:10 AM Words that are spoken into this world are eternal in the sense that they are spoken in the presence of God. That is why in the old testament the false prophets who did not speak the words of God were separated in future events from the remnant. The words that come from our mouths are the doctrines we hold in how we think. They judge us in our view of what we trust. Our desire is to learn that Gods words have been judged seven times by fire. They are always faithful and never return without doing the change that is real. We use words that present reality as if we are our own god. I mean... not as a matter of anger or hostility... but out of weakness and immaturity. But the ungodly only present Gods words as unacceptable. Because the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.  We must protect one another from ideas that are formed by the wisdom of this world. Because they are meant to directly insult the authority and faithfulness of Gods word. 3575  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 17, 2010, 01:36:46 PM Quote from: Priscilla JOY on April 17, 2010, 01:18:42 PM Quote Which brings me back to my illustration. Here is a situation where good can come out of doing nothing. All the events that we see from our perspective do not seem to have a connection to a purpose. God seems to be doing nothing. But this is not the case. God must have things transpire in order to move other things along in His perfect plan. What we think needs to be done rite now is not how God sees it happening. So that all the events both bad and good in our lives are there because God decided that it was the best for us. Or these things would not be necessary and so they would not be real. What a great illustration. So many times I try to fix my messes. When all I have to do is lay down and let the train pass over. Trusting in Him that He is working it for good. If I'm understanding you, MBG, it seems you are saying that it comes down to the trustworthiness of God. Do we believe Him when He says He works ALL things for good. So when things look really bad, we can rest assured that He has it all worked out for our good. He determined the outcome before the events even started! Why in the hell am I trying to fix what He is working for good? Quote Some people think that the christian life is about activity. They think like this... i have a free choice to either do the rite thing or do the wrong thing. If i chose more rite things then wrong things then it proves that i am a christian. Wow. This is so true of some people in my church and in my family. And it is exactly what kept me out of church for so many years. I knew I could never follow all the rules all the time. But then I heard Jesus whisper my name. And He said I don't have to DO anything, He did it all for me. All I had to do was give Him my heart, and He'd take care of the rest. And I fell to my knees and cried. It was the first time I'd heard His voice. No more shame, no more guilt, only GRACE and LOVE. Here's a quote from one of my favorite books by John Eldredge in "Waking the Dead" "The devil is a master of shame and guilt.......The religious spirit has turned discipleship into a soul killing exercise of principles... Wisdom is not cramming our heads with principles, it is developing a discerning heart." So thank you MBG, for your discerning heart. Thank you Priscilla JOY... its so true... i think this story was for you... my premonitions. But you have learned to trust more in Him. Thats the key...if He is who He says He is ... then we can trust in Him even when others dont understand. Reply 3577  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: April 17, 2010, 11:42:16 AM Equilibrium choosing is legalistic living. Because it is entertaining images that do not exist. If peace could come through unity by choosing to make peace a reality then the principle of unity would be compromise rather than the reality. The reality is that unity is established in causes and effects and not wants. Because the power of desire prior to choice is the agreement to agree. How can two men agree unless they are of the same heart? So there is a rationalization of personal power at the expense of a real understanding of reality. If there is no connection of the desire to the choice then the personal understanding of the personal image are in deterministic attributes of a dreamy hope. On the one hand the existence of an idea in the mind as a want is not really the reality of the powers that effect the event. So that the personal significance is tied to personal performance in the fleeting outcome. Determinism is a slave master in its returns. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3578  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 17, 2010, 11:09:57 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 16, 2010, 01:34:50 PM mbG:  "He is both a loving God and a wrathful God. That is He personally judged all men at the cross unto all eternity. But God is eternal and He determined the outcome before the creation of the world." K_k:  Slight difference in focus, from my perspective.  God is Love.  Part of that Love is anger against any sin or evil that can harm His kids.  He showed this aspect of perfect Love the most clearly at the Cross.  Being beyond (yet within) time, He foreknew the outcome of men's decisions for all history in advance. Thus, God cannot be blamed for man's rejection of His mercy/grace/forgiveness in Christ, since He did not force them to rebel.  But He does allow/empower them to choose rebellion and its consequences, which is eternal destruction, or His unending Life in Jesus. I'm always on the lookout for ways folks can twist foreknowledge into foredoom as i once did.  Makes no sense to say that God loves the world so much that He sent His Only-Begotten Son in order that only those who have any possibility at all of receiving Him can have eternal Life.  But He sent His Son to whosoever believes in Him.  We are to choose whom we will serve, true? Joshua 24:15  "And if it seems evil to you to serve YHWH (the LORD), choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH (the LORD).” Kk let me give you an illustration and then make some points about moral ability and moral necessity. I was reading about a month ago about a woman who had dropped her purse on the NY subway tracks...she then proceeded to lower herself into the area to retrieve the purse. Another train however was quickly approaching. She grabbed the purse and had enough time to get the the wall and lift pull herself out. But she panicked and tried to get to the space between the train and the wall. The space was to small and she was crushed.  What is interesting about this story in my parallel here was that is all she had to do was lay down and let the train go over her. In other words trying to do something actually led to her death. If she would have laid down perfectly still she would still be alive. Some people think that the christian life is about activity. They think like this... i have a free choice to either do the rite thing or do the wrong thing. If i chose more rite things then wrong things then it proves that i am a christian. I determine my own destiny. I am completely responsible for my own life. But if you think about this ...they are saying that they cause all the things that happen to them. If their choices were the cause of the events then would not it be a wise thing to ask what was necessary before the choice that was the reason for choosing that event? If there was no cause prior to the choice then they are saying that their choices happen randomly. According to their present willing it. What we are saying is that every thing that makes up reality is necessary. Which includes the desire...the motive .. and the condition of the soul. So that every thing in the universe is necessary because it is contingent. Its just like the illustration of creation. How did the earth get here? Was it from an idea that it could exist or it could not exist? Was it brought into existence in a state of equal Librium? No God created it. How did God create the earth? He decided to create it by His will prior to its existence. If God created everything in six days by His will then it proves that these things are necessary. So that every event either done through the will of man or done in a natural order are necessary because they have a cause prior to their being brought into existence. And if God wills whatsoever comes to pass then man cannot chose anything that God did not will. Because events do not happen without a necessary reason to happen or they are random.  Which brings me back to my illustration. Here is a situation where good can come out of doing nothing. All the events that we see from our perspective do not seem to have a connection to a purpose. God seems to be doing nothing. But this is not the case. God must have things transpire in order to move other things along in His perfect plan. What we think needs to be done rite now is not how God sees it happening. So that all the events both bad and good in our lives are there because God decided that it was the best for us. Or these things would not be necessary and so they would not be real. Reply Quote Notify 3579  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 15, 2010, 03:19:19 PM The christian experience is predominately a physical connection in lite of the way the saint is made by God. It is not good for man to be alone. This was not only to fulfill the needs in the creation of marriage but it was mainly a connection in how love is defined on this earth in the closest way. It provides us with the doctrine of Gods saving example on this earth of two people fellow shipping in the Christian sanctifying way. This is why sin is personal in its identifying the consequences upon the one committing the sin and not just on the sin itself. Do not be unequally yoked with an unbeliever for what fellowship is there between light and darkness? In some ways because we have this watered down universal approach to christian fellowship we have detached the sin from the sinner. If Agag was a metaphor for sin then it would be a form of self mortification. Making personal metaphors in ot language out of the narrative was not a Puritan way ...i mean people to things. The point is that a man was hacked to death before the Lord. The christian is a man who first describes reality in how He is connected to all of the personal immunations of Divine persons in his entire being. A christian does not have a life of reality in connection to a principle of the law. He is dead to the law just as he is required to put to death the flesh. In other words a christian is not connected to the law as he is connected to the personal dependence he has on other people. This world is not a mystical interrelation of reality. We live in a world in which real righteousness or reprobation are represented in the connection to the physical realities as that opposition. Because we worship a personal God.  Sin did not arrest Christ in the garden and abuse Him. Real personal enemies who were under the control of sin and Satan brought Christ suffering. Christ did not warn his disciples that the personal effects of sin would cause them great harm. He said the men would oppose them. God never changes. He is both a loving God and a wrathful God. That is He personally judged all men at the cross unto all eternity. But God is eternal and He determined the outcome before the creation of the world. All reality is in these personal connections we have as a result of His dividing men. This is why the universe is mostly a battle between the forces of Satan and God in which we are caught in the middle. Satan uses men as that opposition. Christianity is always local. Reply Quote Notify 3580  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Our Father on: April 15, 2010, 02:35:51 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 15, 2010, 02:19:13 PM I notice that you consistently avoid calling our God "Dad", "Daddy", "Poppa", etc. Do you consider those names a lack of proper respect for the Almighty? Kk ... ive been one to adore the God centered salvation. Salvation is both in Christ as or Savior... and our Lord.. but it is also described in scripture as being God centered. For some reason i am drawn to this more at this time in my life. I pray the Psalms and sometimes i will say some things ... but i believe that God is bigger and our personal prayers are so small. And in some ways i have come to believe that we really learn more than the words when we pray the scripture. Because the words are the eternal words of God.. they lead us to our Daddy.  Kk this is really important. Each word is the expression of the entire doctrines of grace. In other words we can cry "help" and that will fall on us by the Spirit in a Trinitarian way. But there are phrases that are inspired by the Holy Spirit that have a weighted response. Or they are the Holy Spirits prayers. Every word we speak has a return to us. This is the fellowship with our Daddy.. its not necessarily in calling Him daddy. Because every doctrine we receive as an assurance comes in our rising to God. Did you know that our view of God and how we rise to Him affects our understanding of personal assurance of forgiveness? That acknowledging sin does not teach us to trust in this grace in a proper way. But we experience the heights of pleasure , joy, fellowship and we come down to peace and comfort. Which is a paradigm of receiving the heart love of our Father ... without even mentioning that He is daddy. We must get to the point were we are so moved to love that Daddy is rite in our present view. I sit and write without any thing in front of me but the word most of memorization and my high experiences in words.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3581  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 15, 2010, 02:23:37 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 15, 2010, 02:14:43 PM mbG: "We can do nothing to earn Gods forgiveness. Christ brings us to God by grace alone.  I dont mean to get offensive. Just defending real grace." K_k:  You are defending that which needs no defense.  We can do nothing to earn God's forgiveness.  Only Christ brings us to God by grace alone. How might i have given you the idea that i believed anything else? Kk i am on your side ... just want grace to be all you need. Reply Quote Notify 3582  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Our Father on: April 15, 2010, 02:10:06 PM Well we have all we need in our relationship on this earth in our Fathers love of us. The first and last of our trust is really not in anybody or anything on this earth. Our Father is soo big that He consumes all of our lives. This is why we are encouraged not only to come and make our petitions to Him but we are to fellowship with Him as He is God. Did you know that if we do not develop our lives in this way that there is a certain level of presuming that He will do to us as He says? And its not a threat since He is not desiring to give us a snake. He knows what we need, He gives freely, and He never does us harm. This is why His fatherly affections to us are soooo important in our receiving in our needs. He knows that if we placed men in a position of that authority we would starve to death for real affection. Father is directly desiring to provide us that flying angel of grace... peace... love... faith... pleasure... towards us in our disposition of weighted pressure that comes from this world. He is going to communicate to us in a way that will make all things rite in how we view the world by being content as we are. Because He comes into the room where we are hiding...  resting.. anxiously worrying... unable to face the future...dealing with a very difficult relationship. He is the specialist who deals with us when we are alone... He lowers the noise of the world ... He puts on the garments of beauty ... and He comes and listens to our cries. He teaches us what to say that will draw Him into a more sharing of His love.  When we are threatened we can come and tell Him. We can ask for His special protection and tell Him to let us know when we are in danger. He wants to fully protect us from all enemies. Because His hand is a very powerful weapon. His rite hand will remove all obstacles. His hand protects us and at the same time feeds us. This Abba is unbelievably protective of His kids. He is so big that we could not know how much He intervenes in our behalf unless we know what He sees. And yet He is so personal that He will let us open all of our troubles to Him and listen so that He responds in His protective ways. Now this is why we know what real love is.      Remove Reply Quote Notify 3583  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 15, 2010, 01:35:11 PM Just want to encourage you to sin with as much passion as you possibly can. We do the deed before God as what it is in reality. The only other option is to weigh every thing we do and have God give us something in response to it. I am saying this because i never hear people talk like this. And i do not want to make a deal with people over their view of sin and grace. Thats why i do not consider that God is pleased to respond to what i want from Him. This is why freedom is so scary. Most of the time when i hear people talk about what God thinks it always has to do with a connection to God of trust worthiness. Morally speaking i think we view rite and wrong in bits of reality or i mean... its from memory...its from the view of how other people have dealt with us in the past... its from the idea that blame is not the first principle of these principles of positive change. So if we start with a set of principles that we draw from the scriptures then how do we know that God is speaking to us personally? Now i mean... with a knowledge that we are able to start on the premise that we must give up all of our rites in order to be sorry for our sin? Isnt it true that we already have a battle going on since God is present in us by the Holy Spirit? Since God is God is it possible that He can act in us apart from things that we think about? Is it possible for us to know what is wrong with us in the way God knows? Can we make God fit our box by how we think He responds to us? Did you know that God is able to deal with us in spite of our presuming that He is what we think He is because He has never attempted to make a deal with us. When He promised us in a covenant of grace that He would love us ..He made it impossible for us to present value to Him that would be acceptable as a return on His love. So that sin, conviction, goodness, loveliness, kindness and social abilities in our view have no bearing on Gods free expression to love us. Most people start from a premise of returns they receive in a relationship. And this is because they have not considered God as a covenant keeping God. This is why all deal making is done by people who have inadvertently presumed that God is faithful in what ever proposition we take as what we thought He said. Thats why people make deals with one another because the relationship is based upon love by return. God loves us as He defines it in His freedom to act as He sees fit.   Reply Quote Notify 3584  Forums / Main Forum / Re: so, what's so good about Good Friday? on: April 15, 2010, 01:31:42 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 15, 2010, 12:59:43 PM His servanthood for my selfishness. His wisdom for my foolishness. His total healing for my diseasedness. His eyes of love for my utter blindness. His clear-hearing for my dumb-deafness. His submission for my rebelliousness. His straight/narrow way for my crookedness. Kk.... just want to encourage you to sin with as much passion as you possibly can. We do the deed before God as what it is in reality. The only other option is to weigh every thing we do and have God give us something in response to it. I am saying this because i never hear people talk like this. And i do not want to make a deal with people over their view of sin and grace. Thats why i do not consider that God is pleased to respond to what i want from Him. This is why freedom is so scary. Most of the time when i hear people talk about what God thinks it always has to do with a connection to God of trust worthiness. Morally speaking i think we view rite and wrong in bits of reality or i mean... its from memory...its from the view of how other people have dealt with us in the past... its from the idea that blame is not the first principle of these principles of positive change. So if we start with a set of principles that we draw from the scriptures then how do we know that God is speaking to us personally? Now i mean... with a knowledge that we are able to start on the premise that we must give up all of our rites in order to be sorry for our sin? Isnt it true that we already have a battle going on since God is present in us by the Holy Spirit? Since God is God is it possible that He can act in us apart from things that we think about? Is it possible for us to know what is wrong with us in the way God knows? Can we make God fit our box by how we think He responds to us? Did you know that God is able to deal with us in spite of our presuming that He is what we think He is because He has never attempted to make a deal with us. When He promised us in a covenant of grace that He would love us ..He made it impossible for us to present value to Him that would be acceptable as a return on His love. So that sin, conviction, goodness, loveliness, kindness and social abilities in our view have no bearing on Gods free expression to love us. Most people start from a premise of returns they receive in a relationship. And this is because they have not considered God as a covenant keeping God. This is why all deal making is done by people who have inadvertently presumed that God is faithful in what ever proposition we take as what we thought He said. Thats why people make deals with one another because the relationship is based upon love by return. God loves us as He defines it in His freedom to act as He sees fit.