3608	Forums / Main Forum / Re: "Only wounded come out at night."	on: April 11, 2010, 08:00:20 PM
Quote from: Kings_kid on April 11, 2010, 02:13:52 PM Yes, the Sermon on the Mount has sometimes seemed like a "listing" of Beatitudes.  But it is one of the most complete sermons He preached, isn't it.  John 17 is like a sermon too, but more of a prayer/sermon. Speaking of the Beatitudes, here's a slightly modified version like we were talking about.  Matthew 5.  “I bless those who are poor and realize their need for Me,       for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.    I bless those who mourn,       for they will be comforted.    I bless those who are humble,       for they will inherit the whole earth.    I bless those who hunger and thirst for justice,       for they will be satisfied.    I bless those who are merciful,       for they will be shown mercy.    I bless those whose hearts are pure,       for they will see Me.    I bless those who work for peace,       for they will be called the children of God.    I bless those who are persecuted for doing right,       for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs." BTW, I am dealing with my step-father's last days on earth, so i can relate to your statement "If we and our parents live long enough, many of us are going to be sharing these same seasons...goes back to Ecclesiastes." All of these blessed s the verb is actually speaking about relationship and not reactive blessing...... these are actually pronouncements as a matter of the causal state of being blessed.I thought you understood the ot concept of blessed. Listen... we are blessed... and we get daily blessings. Or we are adding grace upon grace. The grace of Jesus Christ are like the waves crashing against the shore. This is an ot way of pronouncing covenant blessings on us and our posterity. Its really saying that since we are represented by the Name of Christ then we are blessed. That state of grace presents us with these continual marks in our natural state of thinking. This is higher than a physical renewal ... this is a new spiritual state that we dwell in. These blessings of spiritual renewal are the transforming ways of the Spirit of God. A spiritually alive person naturally thinks like this. If you go back into the book of Psalms you will see that these really are spiritual desires that are given to us when we are regenerated. We long and we are. That is real grace.
Reply Quote Notify

3609  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 11, 2010, 07:51:16 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 11, 2010, 01:42:24 AM mbG:  "God does not force Himself... His ways are irresistible and we go from impossible to possible because His will is our will. We do not have any mark of the paradigm of the old will." K_k:  Maybe your experience has been that you have always wanted His will in every part of your life since you received Christ.  That has not been my experience.  He has patiently shown me in many different ways the details of why i will want His will as my own when i more fully understand it.  And i repent.  And the process continues. I agree that He does not force Himself upon us.  He educates us, enlightens us, inspires us, moves us, guides us, even chastens us, all without coercion.  Yet, i do not think we will be perfect in this lifetime - we will always have more opportunity to "pick up our cross", by His power, to put to death the deeds of the flesh.  Do you not agree with Paul? "I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me.  No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it, but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us."  Philippians 3:12-14 NLT Paul had not attained total sinlessness, and called himself "the chief of sinners".  He also called Believers, including himself, saints in Christ.  Both are true. mbG:  "You are not what your addiction is. You lost that identity to addicted personality at your salvation. Therefore you can never fall enough to change that identity. You can always get up and begin again. The truth is that we are walking a road in which we stumble into sins of the heart and then we learn that God is gracious." K_k:  I have been healed spiritually of various addictions.  The tendency toward addictive behavior remains.  Christ deals with various aspects of that tendency in His way and time.  In Him i am totally free.  In the flesh, i still have patterns of reaction that must be put to sleep/death by His Spirit. I agree fully that "we stumble into sins of the heart and then learn that God is gracious", more gracious than we ever understood before.  And often we will repeat the same stumbling until we see clearly and mean deeply that we want Him more than the object of the addictive behavior. The extremely wonderful news is that He is willing to work with us just as we are, not as we pretend to be in our playing "sinless Christian".  If our theology tries to say we are completely sinless and no longer a sinner, we haven't gotten to know Him very well yet.  When we see His perfection more closely, we see our own imperfections more closely as well, which keeps us from the pride of presumption. It is good that you claim your new identity in Christ.  That is part of the process He uses to grow us.  We also need to be completely honest about who and what we are in our current walk, on the way to the fullness of who we are in Christ.  A saint who still sins.  A sinner (one who sins) called to His sainthood, by His grace alone. Wow... lets stick to one verse at a time. You are going over these things very lightly .. and some of this is not correct in the context. First of all i never said we were sinless. I said that we are identified in Christ. All the verses you are quoting about our redemption... the other post as well are verses that are stating that we cannot come to God on our own. Its not saying that we must face a principle or the ten commandments and repent and come to God. Its simply saying that we come to God through Christ. "Therefore there is now no ongoing condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Again you are taking something as a matter of process and presenting the scripture as supporting your theory. I am saying that substitution is fully finished at the cross and now we are involved in a relationship of no condemnation. Our sins have been removed as far as the east is from the west. "Therefore since we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ " . All these substitution verses you are quoting have verbs that present an ongoing state of a completed action.... because the action happened at the cross for us. That is real .... listen that is real substitution!  If you only knew that whole theology of substitution in these individual verses and the application of free sovereign grace then you would agree with me. One of the things i have a problem with is when i tell someone that all of my writings are from words and concepts from verses then people do not believe me. I have spent a lot of work in the last thirty years . There is nothing that i write that does not have a particular application from a text of scripture. So when you present these little innuendos from the stand point of  process theology i know exactly what is being done. I am trained to detect error. The scripture is simply saying as a matter of fundamental doctrine that when we see our sin we see Christ who satisfied it in the past. Now religious people take these verses and say no ... it depends upon our effort... our confession... our goodness to obtain something. The WCF is firm on this false doctrine. We can do nothing to earn Gods forgiveness. Christ brings us to God by grace alone.  I dont mean to get offensive. Just defending real grace. "1. Being then justified, etc. The Apostle begins to illustrate by the effects, what he has hitherto said of the righteousness of faith: and hence the whole of this chapter is taken up with amplifications, which are no less calculated to explain than to confirm. He had said before, that faith is abolished, if righteousness is sought by works; and in this case perpetual inquietude would disturb miserable souls, as they can find nothing substantial in themselves: but he teaches us now, that they are rendered quiet and tranquil, when we have obtained righteousness by faith, we have peace with God; and this is the peculiar fruit of the righteousness of faith. When any one strives to seek tranquillity of conscience by works, (which is the case with profane and ignorant men,) he labors for it in vain; for either his heart is asleep through his disregard or forgetfulness of God’s judgment, or else it is full of trembling and dread, until it reposes on Christ, who is alone our peace." John Calvin  Reply Quote Notify

3610  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 11, 2010, 11:58:56 AM Our identity is in our own prosperity. Our prosperity future prosperity is in Gods covenant love. He promises to bless His covenant people from one generation to another. So that we have all of the covenant promises as expressed in Gods covenant community to be passed down to the next generation. We belong to a new world order in which we use the means to protect and bring success in this covenant paradigm. The world has its own course... they work for every thing and produce an abundance. We receive the goods from the abuse of this system. Because we do not gain an acceptance from proving our position in this world... we are receiving all things by the hand of a loving Father. This is why we live before Him in this unfailing community of love as being protected from the accusing nature of the wolves. God will extend our posterity in His time. We are made to be so identified to another world that we seek it more than we seek this world. Because we do not get caught up in the anxiety course this world lives in. We desire that Gods covenant promises to His church would be extended to our covenant families so that we might see His work extended to the ends of the earth. We are looking unto an eternal home in which God will rule in all of His faithfulness and power through bringing our personal posterity to the future world.  This is why it really is about us. We need to protect our own covenant posterity. We need to see that this is a special relationship in which we do not see or experience this connection in our present connection to of our former ways but we are being changed to see our future posterity flourish because of Gods eternal promises. Our identity is not really in this present posterity but it is in future generations as representatives in a more pure form of this covenant relationship as this present identity that we enjoy on a certain level of sovereign grace. May God bring to our personal posterity a future of ruling both physically and spiritually as we have sought the Lord about the future. Reply Quote Notify

3611  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 11, 2010, 11:32:17 AM When we are talking about oppression that a believer must face it is not an inward oppression. Because we are new creatures who live in a world that captivates Gods people through the devilish behavior of this whole accusing environment. We are not fighting against flesh and blood. We are dealing with  continuous adversity to our new identity as representatives of a new world. Our confidence is not of this world... but we are being opposed by this earthly mindset. Our position in Christ is that we have complete freedom in His work on our behalf. But the world is trying to convince us that we belong to this world through the system of checks and balances. Our allegiance is fully given to another world... but this world is trying to bring us into a relationship of equal allegiance to the rulers of this world in our general tendencies to identify with the dominate of this power structure as our identity as its citizens. We are in some ways experiencing in this present world as being in exile as was the ot church. So that we might know our identity as Gods covenant people because we would forget God if we did not experience this opposition to all that we believe. And so that we might see a swift pronouncement of our future enjoyment as kings and priest in the new heaven and earth. Some of us who have this ongoing focus are bringing down these principalities and powers through bringing into captivity every thought to make it obedient to Christ. We see this as a more direct assault to the general welfare of Gods church. So that our Father is ruling over His church throughout the world. In a covenant of eternal love that He will come to the aid of His children. We are the sheep in the pasture of Gods authority. Not as an earthly go between system of leadership but as being high priest coming before the Most High God who has all power to directly effect our present struggle. Our help is from God alone to each person in public or private. Every other source of lesser protection is a very pragmatic experience... based on our own growth qualities... Gods general activity to encourage us  in that time and these qualities of desperation in the extent of our own work to bring our own gifts into extending Gods kingdom.... oh that we might all experience a special illumination in these circumstances as we minister these gifts to one another. So that we might be under the banner of knowing Gods protection in a special season ... lasting the rest of our lives. Who in their rite mind would want to experience this dreadful state of exile?   Reply Quote Notify

3612  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 11, 2010, 10:44:19 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 11, 2010, 12:09:27 AM mbG: "Gene used to say that the christian life is about getting something for free and giving it away. So we are always getting taught and loved so that we always have something to give away. Thats so simple..." K_k:  Great thought.  Yea, Gene. To follow up on what i was referring to earlier (i went out of town for a few days), the simple reason that God cannot "forget" all our sins at this time is that He is still showing them to us so we can turn to Him for healing/removal.  In Christ He has/will have forgotten them all - that's actually future tense.  But He has clearly forgiven them all in advance. The very conviction we feel from the Holy Spirit is God making us aware of whatever we are doing, or not doing, that breaks the laws of perfect love.  And the intent is not to guilt-trip or punish us, but rather to free us so another sin pattern can be eliminated and forgotten. I'm sure i am "preaching to the choir" to a certain extent, but i write for folks who may not have thought this through.  It could confuse them to say the Lord has forgotten all our sins when they are being convicted at that very time about current habits of thought or action which still remain in their lives. Can you agree that any sin of any Believer, when fully repented of, joins the "pool" of forgotten sins.  It is our clinging to old sins that keeps them in the forefront of our minds and thus of His compassion.  Yet, we can look forward to the day, when we see Him as He is, that we shall be like Him, covered completely in His righteousness.  And then all our sins shall be fully removed and forgotten for all time.  Any agreement? We have a lot of interpretation of scripture here that we are on opposite sides. I have already disagreed with you about the term world ... that being a distinction between the ot term of salvation to Israel and then through them to the ends of the earth.. to the NT time when the gospel actually was caused by God in the destruction of the NT temple ... to go out into the ends of the earth through the Gentiles. World is not every man. We have disagreed about this idea of our standing before Christ. I think this may be where i am focusing with you in your above post. Before we were saved we were alienated from God and we were slaves to sin. But at the same time those who were chosen from eternity to have salvation applied to them in time were marked out from birth. In other words the gospel was in the covenant of grace as the apostle was alluding to in Eph. as that by which we prove of what our identity is like now when we look back when we were under the domination of sin. So that we say our security is in His eternal covenant prior to the creation of this world. We must understand the causes before we can understand our identity as believers. Our present condition in Christ is not just a standing that is in heaven. Since we were determined to have eternal life as past in the counsel of God then that eternal life was applied to us in time as an eternal promise from our faithful God that i could not fail. We live in His eternal persevering power of pre ordained grace to bring us to the grace that will be given to us in our eternal state in the new heaven and the new earth. Our position in Christ is not a theory that we must be about putting sin to death as we look at the just consequences on this earth. We no longer belong to this world. That is our position before Christ now ... not awaiting to be taken out of this world. We disagree on our standing before Christ. We are kings and priest of the Most High from Gods eternal decrees. We disagree on the value of the command and its relationship to grace. I am saying that grace precedes all of our choices. We no longer stand as our own go between before the law and God himself as a high priest. That means we do not have as much ability to receive any of Gods promises in proving that we are faithful. We receive our salvation as continuing because we look at God as a covenant keeping God and not at our examination of our own lives. We have no hope of any consolation in examining our belly buttons. Our examination of ourselves and our failures and sins is proof that God is a covenant keeping God because our high priest is someone who loves us by identity and not by our action. We are not dealing with a general love ... its strictly a family love in which we now belong to a Father who deals with us in a relationship and not according to a set of principles. I would hope that you do not take offense at my dissecting ways. I want to let you know what is available so that i might be faithful to telling of His greatness before the assembly. All of the prayers of the saints are encouraged under the banner of Gods covenant faithfulness being told. I pray this so that i might be faithful to my own promises to uphold the WCF. No offense to you Kk... Any one who is reading this ...i would encourage you to consider the importance of this doctrinal approach. I would get my butt into a church that truly upholds the WCF.    Reply Quote Notify

3613  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 10, 2010, 10:56:18 AM In a purely secularist society there are threatening situations every day. Why is this? Is it because of the rape, murder, selfishness, or the bullying? Not entirely correct. Its because people have a story that paints a picture of community from their own view point. Calvin says that it is worse than the appearance of this animalistic life style. Its because all men are little god makers. That means that all men will continue to put God in a position in which they are completely sure of their particular view of the world... while at the same time trusting in things that they condemn in others. And this is why the world is turned upside down. Because everyone views things in his own eyes as that by which it should be. If you talk to different people about one person they may paint a totally different picture about that person than the other guy. And the truth is the the people talking about the person are being talked about in the same way. This world is so shallow. This is why God cannot allow man to prove that man is worthy. Because men live in such a fantasy that if they were to hear the truth then they would all be silenced before God. God dwells with the broken heart and the helpless. Because the personal explanation of their life is viewing world through the lens of sovereign grace. Let me apply this. It is a fantasy to think that a friend will help you to change the structure of your mind when you are alone. You will always have a different set of circumstances in being alone than in being with others. If you shielded yourself from all of the temptations of the world by living in seclusion you would experience a stronger kind of temptation without the sense oriented things . Because all kinds of evil comes from the heart. You are always in the presence of God who will draw near to you if your draw near to Him. It only takes two people to enjoy each other. You are not what your addiction is. You lost that identity to addicted personality at your salvation. Therefore you can never fall enough to change that identity. You can always get up and begin again. The truth is that we are walking a road in which we stumble into sins of the heart and then we learn that God is gracious. Our world is in our minds in how we view ourselves. Reply Quote Notify

3614  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 10, 2010, 02:09:24 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 09, 2010, 01:15:52 PM Thanks, mbG.  I believe He already has blessed all of us beyond belief.  I appreciate the reminder that nothing can separate us from His perfect love. Maybe i'll clarify my understanding of the forgetting of sins, a little.  In Christ, in His foreknowledge which is the unalterable future, all our sins are forgotten and will never come to mind.  In our daily reality, He is quite aware of our every sin. Not that He is counting them against us, but that He is showing us what needs to be healed and eliminated by Him.  So the old patterns that remain are not put out of His mind, but they had been paid for and He helps bring them to the surface so we will turn to Him for removal and new wholeness. I suspect you won't agree, but let's discuss further and see if we can come to new awarenesses.  Thanks in advance.   Thanks Kk..i ve been writing on this forum for about 5 or so yrs so i seen people come and go. I enjoy this setting. Ive always had something to say to a person after reading them ... i know what they believe. The reason i like this is because there is no other signals about a persons intent about what they think.Its all revealed in the words. Its probably the fastest way to get into a persons mind. I can see rite in front of my eyes whether someone is serious about what they believe. I respect people who disagree with me. Sometimes i wish people would just admit that they like playing by the rules ... they really have no interest in the Personal communications of the faith. Gene used to say that the christian life is about getting something for free and giving it away. So we are always getting taught and loved so that we always have something to give away. Thats so simple... Jesus doesnt make it difficult. Thats why i cant understand about making this so hard with all these rules. Ive found in this forum setting that you can have a very close way of communicating. I can see why God made these things all come alive to us in written language. The apostle even says that we are a book written by the Holy Spirit and not with the ink. This is why the rule do not matter... the revelation of God is that each word is God breathed and it is Trinitarian. It comes directly into the mind of a person ...penetrates into the soul and brings life. I am not making this up... i am sharing what He gives me....Thats why when we write and read one another we cannot fake it. Because we are giving Jesus to one another we dont need to walk anywhere ... or try to figure out what we are going to do ...we do not have all of these other senses to deal with. If you want to know the persons reality ... look at what they are  thinking... written on the page.  Thats why Jesus said that most people who like a lot of rules ... make the rules to justify themselves while at the same time creating a world that is safe to live in. He said John the Baptist came with a strong message of repentance and you said He was too harsh, Jesus comes and He opens Himself up to sinners and publicans ... He feeds,heals , and throws parties and you say He is a drunkard. Well Jesus did bring in the new covenant and it really is finished. Repentance is no longer tied to the ceremonial laws but it is to be preached in Christ.  Now this is human nature because we do not have the ability to be absolutely unbiased since we all are sinners. We see things naturally from a selfish view point. But it tends to be more apparent when you get a bunch of religious people.. religious professionals together. And then you begin to develop a religious community and before you know it that view point of the religious people becomes the image of what Christ is like. He had to make it this simple. Wow... thats why Jesus told the people that they are always complaining about what He is doing cause they dont entirely understand freedom and grace. People are like the rich man... Hey Jesus i got the principles down whats next? "Jesus says" give all of it away."..... But Jesus just.. give me the next thing to do." Reply Quote Notify

3615	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism?	on: April 08, 2010, 03:35:50 PM
Quote from: THOR on April 08, 2010, 03:08:51 PM Quote favor... grace... irresistible grace. Cain did not have the favor of God.    God rejected Cain's sacrifice; the text says nothing about God rejecting Cain. As a matter of fact God favored Cain so much that He took the time to personally speak and reason with him and warn him about the possible trouble Cain was about to experience if he made the wrong choice. Maybe Cain thought there was no way to chose anything other than sin but God explains that Cain does have the power to master sin. Why would God say such a thing if it wasn't true? And what's the big deal about mastering sin? Mastering sin doesn't save you anyway. We are saved by faith in Jesus. The Bible never says God demands us to be Lawfully perfect to be acceptable. God demands we have faith in Him to be acceptable. I wonder why You never say we are save by faith in Christ. You always use the word saved by "Grace" which in Reform theology does not mean Jesus saves. This is a cover up term to conceal the another means to salvation...predestination. It appears to be Christian but it is another Gospel because it down plays faith in Jesus and assigns the cross as just a means to assuage God's anger instead of being an Atonement for our sins like the Bible says. How is this any different than trusting in circumcision to save you. Both seek other means to be saved. Do you trust in the blood of Christ to save you? What other way is there? God predestined us IN Christ; NOT, TO BE in Christ.  Once we are believers then we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ and to experience eternal life. We must not allow theologies of confused long dead men to twist the simple meaning of Scripture or do our thinking for us. Everything is about Jesus in the NT. The Grace of God IS JESUS (Grace is NOT predestination) Jesus is the Way the Truth and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Him. Jesus is the GATE, the only way into the sheep fold. How do we know we will go to heaven? Because we accept and believe in Jesus with our whole heart, Just as God told us to do in the NT.  There is no other way under heaven to be saved. Thor . Thor faith is merely the agency through which we receive salvation. The object is Christ Himself... we believe in Christ. But in scripture the object defines how one is identified... we do not define this. Because faith is a gift as well as grace. So we may think that our faith is a big deal. But we get this backwards because we do not consider that since we have nothing to bring except our sin then we are receiving salvation.... not only at a point and time but also as ongoing. Salvation is Gods gift to us out of His free grace and unfailing love. We are receiving all of these saving effects in the form of gifts. Not only in being given more grace, but also all of the promises. Not only are receiving our salvation as a gift... but we are receiving hope in the form of having a defense that we have in Christ. We are also receiving our daily food, Gods abundant gifts from others and all of the gifts promised in having the Spirit of God determine our usefulness. Some of us are drawn out to long for God and so we receive more gifts as we grow in our faith. As my friend Gene used to say... do not be overly concerned about getting ... but enjoy the gift.  Believing is also an obedient turning to Christ in all of our lives. We turn to Christ in prayer... worship.... and the sacraments. This is the obedience of faith. When we turn to Christ we learn that He is all we need in this world. If we put other things in place of Christ then it is not believing in Christ. Seek first His kingdom. But then the promise is we will be gifted beyond what we could ask or think. Our attitude in all of life is we want to glorify God in all we do and enjoy Him for all He gives us. God is always good because He always works the good in our lives by His giving us everything we need and His defending us. All of these gifts are ours through faith.   3616  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 08, 2010, 02:12:03 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 08, 2010, 02:02:22 PM mbG: "We put to death the works of the flesh by the Spirit... alone. All other ideas of self effort (fail - word addition by K_k)..." K_k:  We are in highly precise agreement.  Isn't it good when brothers dwell together in harmony!!  Thanks Kk i want to tell you that there is nothing that will separate you from the love of God. He is very fond of you and will not disappoint you. All of our addictions are forever forgotten... He cannot hold them against us. He does more than we could ever ask or think. I ask that He bless you beyond belief.  Reply Quote Notify 3617  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why do our opinions differ? on: April 08, 2010, 01:46:37 PM We believe ... if i could borrow your stool analogy that God is sitting on the stool in heaven and his feet are placed on the earth so that God ordains all reality. If we are to distinguish between what is reality and what is illusion then it must be put to the test of what God has said since He has determined for us to know only what he wants us to know. Or it comes in the spirit that He has a rite to determine what the truth is since we are looking up to Him who condescends to us in baby talk. Reply Quote Notify 3618  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 08, 2010, 01:38:23 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 07, 2010, 11:40:06 PM Jesus to a wannabe follower:  "Come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”  Mark 10:21 Jesus to us:  "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.  For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."  Luke 9:23 Paul:  "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry."  Col. 3:5 "I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."  1 Cor. 15:31 "For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."  Romans 8:13 ----- We have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us but Christ lives in us.  For Christians this is true.  It is also true that we must experience the putting to death/sleep of our false identities that are bound up in sin-patterns.  This is an on-going process. Actually, it is He, in us, who is putting to death what remains of our old nature in practical reality, but only with our full cooperation.  Have we died in Christ, and been made alive in Him?  Yes.  Do we need to continue dieing to anything that separates us from His love?  Your call, my answer is obvious. Kk We put to death the works of the flesh by the Spirit... alone.All other ideas of self effort... that being... a general tendency in us all to dilute the direct teachings of scripture as if the water from which we drink is mixed with an oil substance, or when we are eating meat it is mostly bones. But the Spirit teaches in one truth that has the spiritual understanding of the rest of the truth. The bible is one long chain.  When he is talking about dividing scripture he is not talking about slicing it up in pieces or in different times. The gospel has always been in God alone. But he is talking about the application of scripture to an individual. All other ways of man in gaining righteousness are what all false religions are founded on. When i have been disagreeing with you of your epistemology it is over our difference in biblical interpretation. It always comes down to that.    Reply Quote Notify 3619  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: April 08, 2010, 01:22:53 PM God should be our only help. There are all kinds of other things that are not necessarily evil. But a restless heart is a heart in private as in public. This is why things that are not necessarily evil can become evil in a pragmatic way. Salvation is an expression of the most personal paradigm in a communication that defines all of the personal struggles of an individual to be set in order in the presence of God. Because every man as an individual has his entire mental and physical make up as being in God... or there is a safe place that shields the soul from all the impersonal voices of the common expressions of obedience. The law applied to the soul is subjected to the designs of Gods personal application over time. In this way a legal application is a real destructive voice that brings in sorrow and anxiety as distinct from finding the comfort of total dependence in this safe refuge. Legalism is the way of dominating the soul in a direct assault on a personal identity. It comes from both extremes of the spiraling down and self effort to climb back up as a necessity to overcome the desperation of an overbearing conscience or a restless spirit. Gods ways are always to lighten the burdens and to lead in the path ways of communicated peace. This is why in some sense every voice of man whether it is speaking in the truth or it is offered as a trade off for a time of peace is subject to the spirit of its intended application. Our spiritual focus is always under the obligation to distinguish a legal assault from a real communicated peace by finding our relief in the essentials in this general christian spirit of glorifying God by enjoying Him forever. All of this waring of these voices have a universe of the reality as common in the society of men. We must take great care to ourselves to understand the cross referencing in the comparison of these imaginative ways in these common voices of this legal spirit.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 3620  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 08, 2010, 11:55:34 AM If you look in this Psalm it is a prescription to end the focus on man as saving himself. We must see that seeking God is more than understanding the scientific points of scriptural exercises. The demons understand this and tremble. But God is mainly hidden as He comes until we are made to speak as if we were ascended to be present in the heavens through prayer and word so that we are actually up there looking at the religious distinction of this earth. (Like Davids rock and warrior Psalm.. his favorite.) This psalm presents God as coming but if it is ingested it brings us to rise up to a kind of confidence that teaches us that we will one day judge the nations. He is coming down but there is a spiritual rising up in our meditation. This is what is missing i think for today.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3621  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 08, 2010, 11:16:56 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 07, 2010, 11:56:45 PM mbG:  "Cain did not have the favor of God. The context is that the Lords favor determined the relationship they had to the command." K_k:  I think the context shows that Cain decided what offering to bring to God, while Abel did as God desired.  Abel foreshadowed the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.  Cain ignored any spiritual promptings or instructions he may have had in order to "do his own thing". mbG:  "What does God say to a reprobate? He says.. well if you would do all that the law requires then you will be accepted. Well, that is true. But it doesnt do a bit of good unless it is applied in salvation by the Spirit." K_k:  No one can do all that the law requires unless they do everything with perfect love of God and man, as Jesus demonstrated then, and now demonstrates in us.    If you look at the ot you will find that the focus was not on the sacrifice itself. There were more sacrifices that were acceptable than the unblemished lamb. And it had already been established after the initial fall that there needed to be a life taken in order to be covered in the righteousness of Christ. But that was prophecy that salvation could only come through a God -Man. This brings the focus on the spiritual dimensions of redemption... that is God was in a battle with satan. There was only one hope... a coming redeemer who would crush the Serpents head... a fatal blow. This is why no man... including these men who were ordained to perform the sacrifices ... were good enough to be the mode though which there would be a covering for the daily sins of the people. The problems were not with the continual performance of bringing sacrifices to God. The problems were the presumption of the people that they would trust in these means to make them rite before a holy and eternal God. These sacrifices were not eternal but temporary until the seed of the woman would come and crush the Serpents head. This was established that God would seek out man and cover Him in the garden. And here in Cain and Abel God again shows that He alone is seeking men. I favor Abel over Cain. Because i do not think it is in the appearance of a mans work that brings a proper sacrifice. After all both kinds of men in national Israel were trained in religious performance and ritual. So that God would be God. In order that salvation would be seen as covenant promise and not according to performance. God was saying that because it was His choice as to who would be covenant keepers and who would be covenant breakers that it would be a display that salvation is eternally set before the foundation of the earth. God comes into time and will not be silent as He in a national way gathers His people on a daily basis. Because He alone gets the glory for salvation...then He alone is able to judge. The focus in the OT is not on mans gifts and sacrifices but on God who is faithful to save men.  Our God comes and will not be silent. A fire devours before Him... he destroys His enemies on every side.... and around Him a tempest rages.. that being He is eternally present in all events in history as they are made to occur in the choices of man. He comes as judge and redeemer. He faithfully protects His people in this mystery salvation and at the same time destroys His enemies. God was accusing Cain to his face.  Check it out yourself.    Here is some humor of God.. i mean... given that we speak these words in a rather stouthearted way... its kind of like rap rhythm. hehe Ps. 50  8 I do not rebuke you for your sacrifices        or your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. 9 I have no need of a bull from your stall        or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine,        and the cattle on a thousand hills. 11 I know every bird in the mountains,        and the creatures of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,        for the world is mine, and all that is in it. 13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls        or drink the blood of goats? 14 Sacrifice thank offerings to God,        fulfill your vows to the Most High, If you speak this there is a certain condescending to its rhythm. i love the rhythm in this one.  15 and call upon me in the day of trouble;        I will deliver you, and you will honor me."- Predestination. Where did this God go? Possibly what the apostles meditation for Ephesians. He mentions some of this in Rom. He liked this one. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3622  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 07, 2010, 10:16:00 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 07, 2010, 09:57:51 PM Do we actually need a label, like calvinist, or lutherist, tacked on to Christian (or perhaps, ChristIsInMe-an)? Will there really be baptists, methodists, catholics, 5 point calvinists, 2 point non-denoms, etc, in the soon coming Kingdom?  Or just us kids of the King?  Is your definition of a Christian a person who does not label? I feel labeled.  Kk every connection in love is expressed by agreement or defense. (a pragmatic expression either negative or positive in the level of passion)  Jesus labeled every idea as either loving Him or hating Him. Reply Quote Notify 3623  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 07, 2010, 10:07:12 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 07, 2010, 09:48:35 PM Would like to "go back and read Gene" but i can barely keep up with the threads i'm participating in.  Add Gene to the wannado-someday stack. mbG: "It took me awhile to feel comfortable with Genes idea that the soul was perfect and the body was sinful." K_k:  I am open to Scripture-based correction, but at this point i see the Spirit of Christ (Who is Holy), living in me as perfect, and any direct spiritual connection He has established in me that is wholly surrendered to His Will. Yet i make choices.  I choose wrongly.  I sin.  Is my true identity the perfect sinless child of God He has declared?  Absolutely.  Is my daily reality identity one of perfect sinlessness?  Absolutely not. I see truth in Paul's statements that in Christ i have His righteousness.  Yet i need to "die daily", putting the flesh to death/sleep.  And i'm not very good at doing that at present.  Even Paul said, "Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own.  I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]..."  Philipians 3:12-13 And as we saw before, Paul called himself the "chief of sinners" in present tense, not past tense.  So, putting it together, we have him saying he is a great sinner who has not yet attained perfection.  He, and we, will be made perfect when we "see Him as He is", for we will be made like Him.  Until then, we take up our crosses under His guidance and empowerment, that we may become more willing to let Him have His perfect Way with us, since He is the "author and perfecter of our faith". What bothers me about Gene's thinking is that it sounds close to Gnosticism in a certain manner.  But i don't want to sidetrack the topic to go there. Let me instead, propose a different analogy.  Consider a seed, any kind of seed.  In a certain sense, there is an "image" of the final plant built into the genetics of that seed.  The ideal exists in it yet must be grown into the end product by dieing to itself as a seed, and then as a sprout, and then as a child version, and then as a fruit-bearing adult. Consider that as Christians we have the ideal image, the Spirit of Christ (Who is Holy) living in us.  And we must go through a series of "deaths to self" on the way to becoming the person that God knows He is making to be His eternal kid. Objections?   We already died to self. We no longer need to go back and put self off of the throne. Jesus did it for us. When we were regenerated we were also given a new will. He destroyed our old will and He gave us a new one. The ot concept of this is that we now live as if He has already given His stamp of approval on our causes since He will defend...uphold ... and faithfully lead us to the end by defending His own name. Self in us now is our propensity to failure... wandering... hardness... and weakness. But we are not over concerned because we cannot utterly fall. So we trust in Him alone. As long as we are on this earth we are going to stumble into doing what we do not want to do. The change comes when we find He still loves us. Our wort's in the self are proof that He accepts us ...not by our own strength but in His strength and love. The more we are accepted in wandering off the more we will want to please Him. He does not deal with us as if we were mentioned as equal or better able than the other people in our world. He deals with us in our frailty and weakness. Its like this... He exalts His name by loving His own without proving that one will be more able than the other... but because we all belong to Him ... He loves us all perfectly so that He gets the glory for our loving one another by His loving through us. Reply Quote Notify 3624  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 07, 2010, 09:36:05 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 07, 2010, 09:18:11 PM mbG, I think you may be feeling about Jim like i felt with our recent communication problem. But, then, feelings, especially humor, don't come across very well on-line sometimes, do they, even with smiley faces, There is a history here Kk... i do appreciate your concern tho.... but i am not as serious as Jimbo.. he knows it... My rule is that if it is about some practical advice ... i usually do not point to anything substantive in this forum setting..so its really a way for me to lighten up and have fun. But if we are talking about theo then i get serious. Jim knows ... please lighten up He says calling him a 4 pointer is name calling.... oh well... everyone here berates me about being a Calvinist... never had Jim come to my side on that one. Reply Quote Notify 3625  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 07, 2010, 09:29:43 PM Quote from: The Changeling on April 07, 2010, 09:24:08 PM Where's the soda and snacks icon?  Now now... that was uncalled for.... lol....    Lets all be adults here... we can do this... you got me rolling around on that one. thanks. Reply Quote Notify 3626  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 07, 2010, 09:20:16 PM Quote from: THOR on April 07, 2010, 09:05:30 PM Ah...we are saved by placing our faith in Christ because of his sacrifice for us and not because we have inherited salvation. The Grace of God is Jesus and we are saved through faith in Him. God doesn't have to pick believers because his creation turned into a failure. God told Cain that he could master sin but Cain chose not to. That very early incident alone shows that God never took away man's ability to choose. What does Calvin say about that? Thor Genesis 4  The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.  6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."  8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." [d] And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.  favor... grace... irresistible grace. Cain did not have the favor of God. The context is that the Lords favor determined the relationship they had to the command. Now look what happens when the law is directed at Cain. He goes out and kills abel. The law speaks death. This is just what Calvin teaches.  You know a man will hear the law and it is only applicable in a saving way if it is the Spirit that applies it in a saving way.  Its interesting that Cain was angry... mans natural response to God. What does God say to a reprobate? He says.. well if you would do all that the law requires then you will be accepted. Well, that is true. But it doesnt do a bit of good unless it is applied in salvation by the Spirit. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3627  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Cursing Legalism on: April 07, 2010, 08:59:28 PM The devil is the father of legalism. Adam and Eve were created to enjoy God by living in perfect fellowship with Him in His covenant love. They were totally free of any dominating traits. They were geared toward pleasing the other person from a joy that was unspeakable. Satan tempted them to work for their acceptance of God as a god unto himself. He told them that they could be like god if they accepted his offer. Adam attempted to usurp Gods perfect expression of unselfish love. When man sinned he not only fell into the guilt of sin but he began to express himself in a dominate way. He became his own god and developed his communicative skills in his manner of conducting himself and his speech toward others as if he was the only one worthy of being god. Satan convinced man that Gods word could not be trusted and man fell into a state of alienation from God. Man no longer has a natural love for God but he is a god unto himself who is convinced that God will be pleased as an equal. Man is a law unto himself and imagines that he is worthy enough to be exalted like God by his own goodness. This is the expression of the spirit of legalism.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3628  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 07, 2010, 08:34:09 PM Quote from: JimR on April 07, 2010, 08:06:42 PM MBG - Baiting someone via name-calling isn't real humorous - especially when you're the one on the receiving end of it.  I don't appreciate your saying what you said nor doing what you did. Nor am I being condescending in what I'm writing to you. Nor is my daughter married.  She never has been married. And it is for things like this that I'm saying you need to post to someone else.  Between your baiting via name-calling, your false accusations toward me, and your talking about my daughter's situation - when you don't even know what it was - I simply don't need to read stuff like that. Jim Ok Jim... i have never met a person more easy to communicate with... sorry for the humor.... ouch. Reply Quote Notify 3629  Forums / Theology Forum / Cursing Legalism on: April 07, 2010, 08:22:55 PM After agonizing over this title but at the same time it must be discussed public ally. The world is a cesspool of legalism so why should we deny that it exist as if we could conquer it with a pound of love? I am not talking about a spirit of hatred expressed at an individual. But i also am not leaving the one to a spirit of resignation who understands sovereign grace as well. So this is going to be a very pragmatic thread. My motive is to increase our passion for Christ while at the same time trying to live in the reality that we must face the spirit of legalism with as much passion. So that we will know how to defend our position as it is real reality and not ignoring the fact that it does hit us at the heart of our spiritual desires. Legalism is like pouring acid on a believer. Every spirit of legalism is an evil intruder that comes in and seduces the believer into questioning the ideas that buttress our desires to trust Christ. We are not dealing with a set of principles here. We are talking about a form of evil power. The general lack of respect for sovereign grace is what forms the the evil disposition of hatred and hardness in our transparency before God.  We are not robots .. we were created with a body and a soul. We are not just intellectual achievers. We live in the reception of all of the realities in the form of the spirit of communication as real adversity. I want to focus on the healing communication to a scared soul. Although we have been completely renewed in body and spirit we still must contend with the spirit of bondage as it is expressed in the miss-usage of the law. I do not think we can just believe in an intellectual way unto a free gospel spirit. We must gird up our minds. Reply Quote Notify 3630  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism? on: April 07, 2010, 07:42:46 PM The Moralist’s Catechism Posted on February 6, 2010 by R. Scott Clark Moralism is the teaching (doctrine) that God approves (accepts or justifies) of us either because we have cooperated with his grace (semi-Pelagianism) or because we have kept the law without his help (Pelagianism). According to moralism God approves of us because of what we are inherently, intrinsically not because of what Christ has done for us (obeyed, died, been raised) and certainly not because of the imputation (reckoning) to believers of what Christ has done but because of what he has wrought in us by grace and cooperation with grace. In the history of Christianity, beginning with the Ebionites, Jewish Christians that taught the necessity of observing the Mosaic law in order to be accepted by God, there have always been moralists in the church. Indeed, in the medieval period, moralism became the majority view in the church. The Reformation was a rejection of moralism in favor of the gospel of God’s grace toward the unrighteous. Nevertheless, moralism persisted in the Anabaptist movement, in Romanism, and among ostensible evangelicals such as Andreas Osiander and others. In the seventeenth century moralism returned in the Arminian/Remonstrant movement, in the Socinian movement, and appeared most subtly in Reformed circles in the teaching of Richard Baxter (whom many Reformed folk today hail unqualifiedly as a hero but whose moralism John Owen excoriated) and in the neonomian movement in the 18th century in Scotland. It is still with us in the self-described Federal Vision movement.   excoriated  -to denounce or berate severely; flay verbally: He was excoriated for his mistakes. In Reformed circles moralism often persists undetected because it begins by sounding orthodox but like the scorpion the sting is in the tail. Pay close attention to this catechism and see how well you do at playing the Reformed version of Where’s Wally?* Q: What is justification? A: Justification is God’s initial declaration of righteousness upon those who trust in Christ, live in the grace of baptism, and obey the gospel. Q: What is faith? A: Faith is repentance, trust in Christ, and faithfulness. Q: What is repentance? A: Faith Q: What is the gospel? A: The gospel is that everyone who believes and cooperates with grace will be justified. Q: What is grace? A: A free, unmerited gift that God gives to all the faithful members of the covenant. Q: What is the covenant? A: It is God’s unconditional, free promise that if we obey his gospel and cooperate with grace we will be justified. Q: What is God’s law? A: God’s law is his moral will revealed in creation, at Sinai, i.e., the gospel. Q: What is the distinction between law and gospel? A: It is the distinction between the old law and the new. Q: What is regeneration? A: Regeneration is the new life conferred upon those who are baptized and thereby united to Christ, elected, justified, adopted, and who continue in that grace. Q. What is baptism? A: Baptism is that promise to the children of believers and to adult converts and the sacrament whereby we are elected, united to Christ, justified, and adopted if we continue in grace. Q: What is the Lord’s Supper? A: That sacrament whereby God renews his covenant to save those who believe and cooperate with the grace given in baptism Q: Who should come to the table of the Lord? A: All baptized persons Q: What is perseverance of the saints? A: Perseverance is cooperation by the baptized with the grace given them in baptism and the supper unto final justification. Q: Can a person lose his salvation? A: No one can lose their salvation unless they fail to cooperate sufficiently with the grace of baptism. Q: What is final justification? A: God’s recognition of the inherent, intrinsic Spirit-wrought sanctity and righteousness by grace and cooperation with grace in those only who have trusted in Christ and have kept their part of the covenant. *That’s the UK version of Where’s Waldo? 3631  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 07, 2010, 07:21:09 PM Quote from: JimR on April 07, 2010, 06:44:34 PM What I am is a Christian.  If you want to know what I believe about something, the polite thing to do is ASK me, not bait me by calling names.  I think that, at this point, it is probably best for you to post to someone else.   JR Thanks for your condescending attitude. Christian obedience is an expression of the truth as it relates to ourselves and others. I do not think that humor is evil ... oh well until another hard conflict there Jimbo.  Ive been thinking about the problems of your daughter marriage... may God bless her. Reply Quote Notify 3632  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 07, 2010, 06:22:44 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 05, 2010, 09:34:57 PM Believers are perfect in Christ, not in the flesh.  I can't say for sure about you, but i know i have acted like a fool many times since receiving Christ, and i doubt that i am done with that.  He has had to break my self-confidence numerous times so that i could learn to depend more upon His guidance and enabling.  More of Him and less of me. mbG:  "Pride is a mark of ignoring God." K_k:  Yes, and i am surprised if you haven't been guilty, as i have been, of ignoring Him numerous times in your Christian "walk". mbG:  "we are not defined as sinners. We are saints who struggle with sin." K_k:  What comes to mind are some verses, the first by Paul: "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."  1 Tim. 1:15  NKJV This doesn't sound like past tense but rather present.  Yet, he also made clear we are saints in Christ.  The resolution that makes sense to me currently is that we are sinners in the sense that we still sin.  And the closer we are to Him the more we will see our imperfections.  We are saints in the sense that we have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us now, and will have it fully given to us at the Resurrection. "Beloved, we are [even here and] now God's children; it is not yet disclosed (made clear) what we shall be [hereafter], but we know that when He comes and is manifested, we shall [as God's children] resemble and be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He [really] is."  1 John 3:2 Amplified  Kk... i hope you go back and read Gene... i think it would be something that would give you an idea where this forum and there is also another one had been taken over the yrs. Although i used to disagree with Gene over his theology of the soul and body i am more on his side than the two dog side. It took me awhile to feel comfortable with Genes idea that the soul was perfect and the body was sinful. Obviously i do not believe this but i have ... since then struggle with my own thinking on the christian identity. And in the past there have been people who opposed the idea that there were any kind of special Christians. And so in the environment we have today where the predominate ideas of a persons thinking form an irrational struggle with a christian identity. If all things are equal in our lives then we are kind of like being brainwashed into a lower christian community identity. There is a tendency as a temptation to treat every thing in a balance way so that we also do not react to these things in a real way. And i thought that maybe Genes understanding of something perfect in us would create neurotic identification. But now i have come to see that the two dog theology creates neurosis. I hope we can discuss these things on a more practical level. I get this perception in the average church spirit. Not my church. I mean that there is a sense in which one sinner is able to have his own comfort zone and it would not be a problem to establish views that would keep him from an over sorrowful condition of neurosis. I mean most people take in the christian message as having a lot of static in their perception of how it relates to reality. An individual can do trading in his thinking that will offset his tendency to feed one dog over another. But when you get a group of christian two dog sinners together then the bar that is raised in order to have a sense of peace is to make on the one hand a virtue out of ignorance and on the other hand to overemphasize the reasons to lack disagreement.  Its kind of like a Father image in which there are pressure points that create inward rage and then a need to build up a certain resistance to keep it under control. The environment is that we shouldnt do what we do, so that our truth is that we dont do what we just did because there  needs to be the guru and the pupil. This is a neurotic environment. Or its suppressing by self determination. As Edwards would say. Which is if there are two opposite choices of equal importance and that defines human ability to be self exerting then there would be no reason or cause to chose one thing over another. If there is no cause as a principle of importance then the object that is chosen has all the power. Think about this and ask me questions.     Reply Quote Notify 3633  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 07, 2010, 05:16:41 PM Quote from: JimR on April 07, 2010, 01:39:12 PM MBG - I'm not being snarly - I believe what I wrote is valid and worth serious consideration.  And what's with calling me a 4 point Calvinist?   Can you point to one post anywhere of my ever talking with you about Calvinism?  Are you going to go down the road of baseless name-calling now? (shaking head)  Sheesh. I was bating you to correct me and say what you are.... Are you a Draculavin?hehe Reply Quote Notify 3634  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 07, 2010, 12:32:33 PM Quote from: JimR on April 07, 2010, 07:26:26 AM Quote from: mybigGod on April 06, 2010, 07:36:04 PM Guys seriously... lets be intellectual honest here. Because there are more than style points. There are disagreements about doctrinal issues here as well. Not one of you guys is a five point Calvinist. Nor do you uphold the WCF or the LBC. You guys need to say that you disagree with Steve about the doctrines of grace. Thats the truth.   With all due respect, MBG, I really wonder whether you can articulate accurately the beliefs/doctrines of either John MacArthur, Steve Brown, or the beliefs/doctrines of everyone here well enough to make the judgments you have above. And Changeling, with all due respect, I wonder whether you've really done a serious comparison study between the WCF and what John MacArthur teaches to make the judgments you have above. Reality:  We are dealing here with people who each have speaking and writing ministries that span well over 20 years.  In view of that reality, it should be pretty obvious that, by isolating one part of his writings from another (a terribly easy thing to do, considering the amount of their writings), we can make either John or Steve look bad/wrong/whatever. Jim Actually Jimbo... since you are being so snarly, narly, poo pooing me... i have been close to both ministries through being under pastors from both ministries... i know this almost first hand... i am more familiar than you think... i like John.. just dont want to talk about my personal experience...this is not the place... the best preparation for pastors by far is RTS Orlando... ok Jim the 4 pointer? What is that ... a Calvinist in your dreams? lol   Ok.. Just like SB says.. we Calvinist can be a bit mean.. sorrwwyyyy Reply Quote Notify 3635  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: April 06, 2010, 08:02:33 PM Quote from: The Changeling on March 30, 2010, 05:19:29 PM I should like Calvin, after all I'm into gothic art, and that dood is a dead ringer for Dracula!  Draculavin hehe 3639  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Thoughts? on: April 06, 2010, 07:36:04 PM Guys seriously... lets be intellectual honest here. Because there are more than style points. There are disagreements about doctrinal issues here as well. Not one of you guys is a five point Calvinist. Nor do you uphold the WCF or the LBC. You guys need to say that you disagree with Steve about the doctrines of grace. Thats the truth.   Reply Quote Notify 3640  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Prayers on: April 06, 2010, 12:18:22 PM Father we thank you that in your season we will see the fruit of our extended prayers. For you tell us to ask of you and you will give us the nations as our inheritance the ends of the earth our possessions. We know that this is our rights as your sons in Your only Son that we will have confidence in our pleading in this refuge. For our prayers are kingdom prayers in this time! You sit on your throne in heaven and laugh. Because men are bent on forgetting you and they set up their own power. But in our longing as kings before you that you would extend our own prosperity we must gird our own swords on our sides to be engaged in this great battle until all things will be put under Christ feet and we will rule and reign as His kings. So we are learning how to plead with you because we know that the ends of the earth will be our possession one day ... the day of our receiving the fruit of your counsel. For we have not walked or sat in the counsel of the ungodly who will not submit to your word of counsel. Father we pray that you will fulfill the kings desires as you have done in the past. That you will uphold our rites and our causes. Because you have never... never forsaken those who seek you. For as your kingdom advances we are required to ask of you and then you will make it happen. The king rejoices in your strength. For you will make them turn their backs when you aim at them with drawn bow. We gird up our swords and we go out to this world with love and truth for you have given us sons so that we might be protected from the snare of the devil and those men who would do us harm. For you rule the nations so that they know that they are just men. For all of our longings are for our posterity and to guard the helpless and the fatherless.For you have ordained children to praise you so that you will silence the foe and the avenger and we might see the end of the rule of man and we will rule in a world where there is no oppression. May you come quickly.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 3641  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: April 06, 2010, 10:51:53 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 05, 2010, 10:20:47 PM mbG:  "God deals with sinners who come to Him as perfect in Christ. Sinners who are really messed up. I mean they are complete flunkies... nerds... dweebs... scumbags ... drunks.. wimps .. control freaks... dudes with hair on their shoulders... bald guys... drug addicts... pornography lovers and the most creepy dudes on this earth." K_k:  Yes, i have been a flunky, a nerd, a dweeb, a scumbag, a drunk, a wimp, a control freak, a dude with shoulder length hair, a semi-bald guy, a drug addict, a porn lover and one of the most creepy dudes on this earth. And He loves me as if i were His only Child, same as He does all of us.  And He can see clearly the sin patterns that remain while also seeing the righteousness of Christ He is building in me as well as has imputed to me. He is not blind, but chooses to focus on what He is making of the "material" that remains.   Just like the great Artist He is.  I've heard that Michelangelo said, when he was questioned about the inspiration for his famous statue of David, that when he looked at the block of marble he saw David imprisoned in it.  And it wasn't so much that Michelangelo tried to create a statue, but rather freed David by chipping away the rock that held him prisoner. Selah Kk... i agree with you here... what i am confused about with you is that if He has done all these things dont you think it is the reality of the will as well? I mean... this distinction between having a totally new will given to us or a will of the former self that is under some kind of bondage. God does not force Himself... His ways are irresistible and we go from impossible to possible because His will is our will. We do not have any mark of the paradigm of the old will. Reply Quote Notify 3642  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why do our opinions differ? on: April 06, 2010, 10:41:44 AM Speaking about the way of truth here... it is only one way. And then these other attachments water down the way by real opposition. This one way is only accomplished to succeed by resistance rather than compromise. I think its a matter of the distinction of what is real reality and what is an imagination of the Way. But it may not be teaching something that looks totally different than its suppose to be. It may be an error that creates the image of being confused with lesser truths as more important than they are. It starts with the denial that God is sovereign in His willing. Reply Quote Notify 3643  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Prayers on: April 06, 2010, 10:19:46 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on April 05, 2010, 10:33:55 PM Rarely, but once in a while, i experience a little of what Jesus said as He was about to raise Lazarus from the dead: "And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.  And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”  Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”  And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.” " John 11:41-44 Sometimes it is not our great ability to pray that counts but our total trust that our heavenly Dad has the answer prepared for the prayer He has inspired us to pray.  So we can rest in the assurance that He has heard, since He prompted the request in the first place.  And thus we can patiently wait for His response, which may be "not quite yet, but soon". Of course, there are also those times when we seem to need to persist and persist and practically nag Him.  But i think He is just increasing our dedication, and building our anticipation, so we will take even more joy in His answer when it comes.  And, on the other hand, if the answer is No, then we will learn that nagging doesn't get Him to do our will, unless it matches His. God is not a safety net God. He did not speak words to be printed down so that man could use them to create a society of healthy middle class people. Jesus did not come to get His enemies off the streets. He came so that we could live with our enemies if need be. One person fully covered in Christ ... the other person a covenant violator... accepting many gods. Both under the same roof. Christ is not a prosecutor.. He is a covenant keeping God. Violating the covenant is not just worshiping other gods...but its making rules to bring men into a new economy. An economy of people who enter into a new universal family by keeping those rules. The family of God are these individual families who have the full rites of Sons of the Most High God as that by which the covenant is upheld in this respected authority. This is why the sermon on the mount is not a set of principles to follow a public universal Christ but they are Christ working in His church to make a way to prosper in a private paradigm. Christ has given the church the keys to the kingdom.. whatever is done in heaven shall be done on earth. This is speaking of the right of not only its leaders but the families to conduct business in this separate power structure. Christ upholds this special respect for leaders of families who are sinners and subject to great trials and temptations. The sermon is giving this structural kingdom the way to prosper in the freedom of grace and not under the dominion of this world. It alone produces that respect.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 3644  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Governed by Man or God. on: April 05, 2010, 05:16:12 PM When the proverb of about opposition comes up.. its in the context of relationship. Not situations. The believer is confident in God and humble about His own righteousness before God. Where as the proud is confident that his own ways are good. Pride is a mark of ignoring God. We may struggle with pride but we are not defined as sinners. We are saints who struggle with sin.A proud person in the OT sense equals a fool.. a fool is a reprobate. Reply Quote Notify 3645  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Saved? Why are you so sure? on: April 05, 2010, 04:25:43 PM We magnify what we do not think as God would have us to think. So that nothing in this world is acted upon unless there is some form of communication whether it is in private or public. Speech does produced evil. But I am not talking about punishing freedom of speech. But if our speech were corrected then there would be no crime. So that our speech become the real weapons. There is no one who develops  a system of man unless it is through a thinking process and it is delivered on the tongue. The only way to produce true compassion, love, faithfulness is changing the way to speak so that it as God would want. We all have loose words... we joke around without thinking and we say things that hurt our brothers in Christ.  God speaks both blessing and cursing. And we do that to. But we never curse our brothers in Christ. Paul pronounced a curse in Galatians. We are required to say in response the the judgment of the law... may it be as you say.  But this is a very pragmatic action.  This is why we are given the community of faith because we no longer belong to the world. Any one who loves the world... the love of the Father is not in him. But when the days are evil then the world is in the community of faith. So these days are more pragmatic than we would like them to be. But we also have this inner world in which a word is like an action. We learn to define these ways of dealing with ourselves by the ideas that are introduced to us as we form our own personalities. This is why most of the world lives as imaginative about personal power and connection in relationships. Because the ideas we have produce the levels of passion that we are attached to in relation to objects and people. This is where we must determine to be transformed. This is why the apostle says that we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. Because we have a world of ideas that act in us in the way of passionate access before we act toward one another.  This is what creates this imaginative world. The imaginative world is an immature child.  Because when we think for ourselves... i mean... without a comparison to Gods thoughts then we live in a world in which we use our words as weapons.