Open Theism is a theological construct which
claims that God's highest goal is to enter into a reciprocal
relationship with man. In this scheme, the Bible is interpreted without
any anthropomorphisms - that is, all references to God's feelings,
surprise and lack of knowledge are literal and the result of His choice
to create a world where He can be affected/changed by man's choices.
God's exhaustive knowledge does not include knowledge of future free
will choices by mankind because they have not yet occurred. One
of the leading spokesman of open theism, Clark Pinnock, in describing
how libertarian freedom trumps God's omniscience says, "Decisions not
yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God. They are
potential--yet to be realized but not yet actual. God can predict a
great deal of what we will choose to do, but not all of it, because some
of it remains hidden in the mystery of human freedom ... The God of the
Bible displays an openness to the future (i.e. ignorance of the future)
that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate."
(Pinnock, "Augustine to Arminius, " 25-26) Evangelicals cannot remain
neutral in response to this unbiblical view. The overriding
presuppositions which open theists bring to the text are (1) libertarian
freewill theism ["causeless choice"] (But can a natural man believe the
gospel independent of the Holy Spirit? -- If not, I challenge Open
Theists to tell me why not?) ... and (2) the Socinian belief that God
does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of the future (i.e. that God is
subject to part of his creation -"time"). Open Theists will also
frequently point to biblical passages in which it is said that God
changed his mind about something to prove his ignorance of future
events. But usually it is the case that God is said to change His mind
in sending judgment on people only after they repent of their sin. In
Jeremiah 18:7-10 God simply shows that this type of relenting is a
component of how He generally has decided to act: "If at any time
I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and
break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have
spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I
intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation
or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my
sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I
had intended to do to it." In other words, many prophesies of
blessings and cursing are conditional. God has the authority to reverse
his judgment at any time. depending on the response of those prophesied
against. Such warnings have tacit conditions such as when Jonah declared
that Ninevah would be destroyed, but judgment does not take place
because they repented. Jonah knew that God would have mercy on them and
this is one of the reasons he runs away from the task at first. The
prophet is supposed to hold out God's covenant terms, blessing for
obedience and cursing for disobedience. Dr. Richard L. Pratt, Jr. from Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why do our opinions differ?
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on: March 25, 2010, 06:52:53 AM
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My problem with Willis argument is how can a
person understand freedom outside of the will of God? If God has set the
limits to a mans communication of knowledge.. that is his understanding
of what is to be known then there should ... i mean being realistic ...
a return on the value of this distinction of power and ability. We do
this every day in making distinctions about our own profitability in
this world. Which to me creates an uncertainty about what i know that
God knows. I can imagine God knows something that i can determine about
what He knows but the fact is that everything that is done in time is
what i know God knows. Every image we make is something we
think the object is like. Is there any man who has a complete
understanding of God? Whether a man believes that things happen because
God wills them or He doesnt will them is his image of what God knows.
The fact is that God knows the difference between the real God and the
imagined God .. and He knows the god of the mans imagination. Obviously
He knows man better than men know Him. Mans image of God is
necessary.... both the imagine part and the real part. But we do not
know in full which part is real.So that what ever reality is necessary
is only real as God knows it. There is no reality outside of God.
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3710
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why do our opinions differ?
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on: March 23, 2010, 04:50:01 PM
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Earlier,
i proposed, whenever there are two very strong and seemingly opposing
ideas in Christianity, that there could be another way of looking at the
same issues that reconciles both extremes. "In some of our divisions,
there is the possibility that both sides of the doctrinal issue are true
but limited compared to the reality."
One example is creation
versus evolution. If God created the universe in 6 literal days and
built in the detailed "track record" of the creative process, it could
look like it were billions of years old. There are several other ways
both sides could be true.
Another example is predestination and
free will. Suppose God can create beings who are free to rebel against
Him, yet knows before creating anyone what choices each will make. Thus
He would not be responsible for their wrong choices, and would not
force or coerce, but rather woo and attract those able to become willing
to be saved (in His very persuasive Way). And He would then know who
will be saved. Both predestination and "free will" would be true.
In
another thread, i am discussing with Thor as to whether God knows all
the future in detail, or is all powerful and can cause any statement He
makes to come true without knowing the future of all our choices.
Omniscience and sovereignty versus sovereignty without absolute
foreknowledge.
What would be a possible resolution of this polar
pair of beliefs? What if God has all knowledge, including future events
and states of heart, for all people, yet chooses to relate to us from a
more limited perspective. For example, "He will remember our sins no
more" shows He can "forget" or choose not to concentrate on our sins,
although the history would be there in the Awareness not being focused
on.
This concept, that God can both know everything at one level,
and choose to only concentrate on the past and present in His dealings
with us, (minus the forgetting of our sins when we accept Christ), could
be useful. It would potentially reconcile Scripture that seems to
indicate He "repents" or changes His mind, with other verses that show
His pinpoint accuracy at prophesying events yet to come. And it fits
both with His ability to predestine and with the writing names down in
the Lamb's Book of Life only after they receive Christ.
I propose
that many other conflicts in Christian theology could conceivably be
similarly resolved. If that is true, the topic in this thread "Why do
our opinions differ?" becomes even more relevant.
There are a lot of reasons to know that God is sovereign in His will. First
because we are so unfaithful and complicated. One of the reason that
there is so much frustration on this earth. How can we be absolutely
sure that the future is going to be secure if on this earth our
circumstances are troubling. Because God knows the beginning from the
end... that includes all of these communications to us personally. If
God wills whatsoever comes to pass and promises to will these things
for our good. And this world is very bad.. the events we are involved
with ... the untrustworthy people we deal with. People get their
feelings hurt every day and are frustrated that there is not very much
love on this earth. Well it is comforting to know that God determines it
to work out in the end for our ultimate good when He erases all of the
sorrow and sin. So we know now that He is more interested in the future
exaltation of His Son for us than we are. God is our biggest
cheerleader! Because some of us have had an awful upbringing. How
can God deal with us as if we are lovely? Because He works in the bad
circumstances to make us the most lovely of them all. We can be sure
that God ordered our awful experiences and yet was smiling on us by
protecting us from the real consequences. If we still think of the
scares we have then because God decrees whatsoever comes to pass we know
that even in our most terrible times He was watching over us to keep us
from destruction..from the grave... and He will bring us out of all of
the pain because He is so eternally good. In praising Him for how He
determined our past we are made to gain pleasure in how big He is. This
gives us a new day.
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3711
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Forums / Steve Brown Etc. / Re: Love your enemies it messes with their minds
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on: March 23, 2010, 04:16:58 PM
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I
would encourage everyone to understand the depth of sorrow that one
experiences. Some of our miss understanding is in the language we use as
to our standards of acceptability. This is why we need to grasp
forgiveness and the faithful love of God. Because all of us react to the
plight of people in disdain for the way they communicate to us in
distress as the protection we have to view our own personal distinctions
to reacting as the method to find connection in forgiveness and
redemption. But that is not love... that is dominance. Love demands us
to be in their shoes.. it demands us to treat someone like we would want
to be treated. Therefore we all need to show weakness as the motif for
change. This is why in gospel communication we come to the defense of
the sinner... the weak.. the lame.. the fatherless. Because although
there are different sinful weakness ... we all share in a dependent
relationship to grace. Grace is the ability to withhold judgment in
the spirit of defense. As my friend Gene used to remind me... i want you
to relax. I want you to receive from God and not be so concerned about
getting. In other words we move mountains of problems by resting in Him.
We learn lessons by withdrawing from conflict. We wait on Him and all
is well. We know that every rock unturned is evidence that we follow our
intuitive skills instead of finding victory in weakness and rest.
Because we do not do what we want to do. The only thing to do is rest in
Him. I pray this brings us all to nothing not in a destructive way but
in the flow of His grace ... so that He might be exalted.
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3712
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Jews have cast off the law and tradition and everything they had learned?
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on: March 23, 2010, 03:31:50 PM
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Glad to see you back from exile, Daveed, even if only temporarily.
retro:
"What you need to understand about our justification by God is that
God's trustworthiness is FOREVER! It's not about some "prearranged
salvation," but about His CONSISTENCY! He WILL NOT LET US GO!"
K_k:
Yes. Our salvation is accomplished by our Saviour, not by our
"holding tight" to a state of having been saved. When we give our lives
to Jesus, that includes our wills. Thy will, not my will, be done.
When
He agrees to saves us, and gives us a new nature (Him living in and
through us), is He not taking responsibility for those things that could
one day take us away from Him in our hearts? Can satan separate us
from His love? No. Can our discouragement with our own poor obedience
make us "unborn again"? Where is that in Scripture?
If He has
control of my will, at my request, for the rest of eternity, would He
ever let anything come between us, even my confusion/rejection? The
answer we give shows how much we have an understanding of, and
confidence in, His power as the Son of God, God the Son.
Let me give a few other parallels to what you have stated here. First
we are sinners by nature because when Adam chose to disobey Gods direct
command Adam sinned in a meta physical way. I was not just a physical
eating. How can one man represent all the human beings in this world?
Through directly going against the understanding of what is rite. It was
an intellectual decision and a willing ...obedience. Therefore all men
sinned in Adam even tho they were not yet born physically. This was
promised by God that the sin of Adam would be imputed to all mankind. Man
under sin is at enmity with God. God is angry with man. In His anger
God is alienated from man. God does not need to punish man with direct
pain. But God just withholds His grace from man ... men suffer from
their own corruptions. If God allowed a man to completely go his own way
the man would be a murderous maniac. Man is under the curse of
sin. When God asked Adam where he was.. it was not for God but Adam. God
must come to man first just like Adam because men are running from God.
Men are cursed and they know that there is something intrinsically
wrong in their own experience.They act anti social because they are not
able to know real acceptance of love based upon their real value. They
are cursed. The needs they have are too great for anything on this earth
to fulfill. That frustration takes them to the end of themselves and
they are only kept from suicide by the grace of God. Ok this is already
too long.
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3713
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: What is legalism?
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on: March 23, 2010, 02:50:25 PM
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No,
mbG, my bragging about my great humility was my sick sense of humor,
not meant to be sarcasm against TB. Didn't think i needed a smiley
face, but maybe i did.
I recall now what you mean about "what
happened over on the Love your enemies" thread. When i read that
discussion, i had just seen a special on Christian TV about Islam. Some
of your sentences in your writing there sounded similar to statements
made by their suicidal fanatics.
I see that my humor in that case
was off-base and hurtful. I apologize. I didn't mean to cause pain,
but was raising a warning that certain statements, taken out of context,
can make even Believing Christians look like dogmatic maniacs. Thus, i
ended it with the "context, context, context" statement. Again, i am
sorry. I'll try to be more careful with humor that can hurt.
It
also seems good to me to ask you to review some of your statements in
that thread, especially the ones i referred to. I know your meaning is
different than the superficial viewer would see, but that can be
dangerous. I hope you can see what i mean. Maybe toadbat can help us
both resolve any issues. Thanks.
Kk if i
can put this in perspective about what TB was pointing to in my own
words it would be that most of our problems come from acting from a
sense of responsibility to avoid the consequences of our actions. I was
reading the Rabbi on this and he made a good point... theorizing is
sitting around thinking about what might happen instead of thinking
about the cause of our actions. This is why the gospel directs our
attention to this radical heart change that has this direct influence of
our healthy and holistic prospective of life .. as the evidence of
belief. Our first emotional response to problems is to try to change a
certain behavior. This is not just a problem of an unbeliever. An
unbeliever or a covenant breaker ... i mean.. in the ultimate sense ...
is blind to all that is good. Not only is his own concept of goodness
defined in his influence of being better than others... that is the
expression of being the most humble and also being the best example...
but he is only attracted to that principle of behavior that gives him a
mark of goodness. So then the process is ... he performs in order to
create a sense of inward order and acceptance. But what bleeds out is a
destructive dominance out of being slighted by others about his moral
demands and his own deception about his qualities of goodness. This is
what we call the chief activity of the flesh.
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3719
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: God
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on: March 21, 2010, 12:46:47 PM
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mbG:
"But as the King of the earth He is our great Shepherd. And we must be
drawn to Him ... because we are most miserable in being blind of all
good. This is what is also surprising... that a King who rules with a
rod of iron would be so kind in His dealings with us. Because we suffer
from a lack of understanding and intellectual pleasure. So that unless
He shines forth into our faces ... in regeneration and renewal then we
would never desire to see true goodness. That is why He shines out all
over the earth.. in order to give us a knowledge of His eternal love,
faithfulness and goodness."
K_k: You reminded me of a shepherd
concept i heard about in a study of the cultural context of the Bible.
It was about how shepherds over in that area of the world deal with the
most rebellious of sheep.
When one of the sheep wanders away to
"do its own thing", the shepherd will go and fetch it back, so it won't
fall off a cliff or get eaten by wolves, etc. But if the sheep persists
in wandering away, the shepherd will be patient with it to a point,
then when it becomes clear that the sheep needs some "training", the
shepherd does a seemingly strange thing.
The shepherd breaks a
leg (or two if needed) on the sheep! Then he puts it on his shoulders,
around his neck and keeps it there until the leg heals. Every day that
it is on his shoulders, he pets it lovingly, and comforts it by speaking
softly and singing to it. It gets the "royal treatment".
And
you know what? That rebellious sheep becomes the one of the flock that
is the most attached to the shepherd. It never leaves his side again.
It knows where the love comes from. Quite a lesson for us, isn't it.
If we look at Psalm 23 it is a Psalm that defines all of
these particular connections we have to the eternal love of God. This is
who God is as He relates to His own people. I know that there is some
of the practical experiences of men who take care of sheep but we must
also look at the context in order to understand what the Spirit is
saying here in this passage. The Psalms present God in this special
relationship with His people. Now that also includes this idea of the
National Israel and the difference with the regenerate people in Israel.
So i think the Psalm is dealing with the loved remnant mainly. In
meditation on this Psalm with the rest of the Psalms there hot ideas.
If you would ever experience the complete meditative experience of a
book that is inside your brain and it becomes a part of your soul then
it presents very distinct paradigms of over all reality. I never
understood the concept of being in the house so to speak until i
memorized the first 6 chapts of Hebrews. And i tell people that the
apostle is presenting this picture of Gods people who are in the house
and under the banner of the love of God ... so that when we come to the
part of those who abandon the faith ... the theology of all of the
chapts prior are supporting the idea that these are family issues not
societal distinctions. Its whos already in the family and who looks like
they are in the family. So it is here.... in this Psalm. There is
the promise of lacking nothing...making a place of refuge.. and
restoring.. then there is the how too ... which is leading beside still
waters... or the converting waters of life... looking on the light of
the glory of God. Then there is the second part... led in the
path of righteousness... how does he lead? The pivotal or central part
of Shepherd theology is for His name sake.
This defines all that we have as our identity as His sheep. All of our
cries... our musing.. our defense is for His name sake... the most
important principle in understanding the grace of God. In that path is
danger. And since we place all of our trust... refuge theology is how He
displays His name in us who are valued as if He represented Himself.
This is all in His care ... or on His table. Which is that He is
presenting us before the world as His glorious ones. The Psalms also
allude to the traitor or the Ismael... because if there is any breaking
legs its toward the traitor His name or one who does not have a
relationship to this Shepherd.. who has no thoughts of God... or the
wicked. That rod has always been a comfort to me cause i don t worry
about fruit inspection.... When God breaks a limb...He also makes it
extremely hot after words..hehe. But the idea is that He
prepares a table for us...the promises of His care... before our
enemies... or its an exalted position and it spells doom for the
rebellious and reprobate. The table is actually the place of power. We
are led in His righteousness and it is devastating to the world. The
anointing is the same idea as a Kings power.... to David and His
descendants forever. Ouch... we are very blessed to have the Spirit of
power and comfort at the same time... all things are yea and amen.
Should i say any thing about the cup?... it is the most devastating of
them all... ok not now. I would like to talk about the
metaphor theology of the table... as a table of all the good things...
that we feast on... i think there is a correlation to this. Its being
lifted up to God... or rising up to God and then there is something that
happens to us in our receiving in a practical assurance. The only other
option is a chance theology of prayerlessness and rebellion. There is
no in between. I could spend a whole day writing about this Psalm.There
are layers here. Please do not look at this through the American romantic image. Some kind of mushy and flaky Shepherd.
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3720
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Forums / Steve Brown Etc. / Re: Love your enemies it messes with their minds
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on: March 21, 2010, 10:46:18 AM
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What
i was referring to mbG, was the resentment and hatred i had held onto
for many years against my step-father and ex-wife. As i learned how
much i had been forgiven via Christ's death on the Cross, it slowly
became obvious that i had no right to hold tightly to resentments
against anyone, for any reason.
And it was through the process
of praying for those others that the forgiveness of them began to come,
at deeper and deeper levels. "Forgive as we have been forgiven", with
the compassion He has shown to us passed on to those we have had no love
for, at all.
Freedom. From Him.
Here s my 7 pillars of freedom 1.
God loves us more than we know. He accepts us with our addictions. We
cannot prove that we are faithful by anything we do to better ourselves.
God accepts us as we are as weak and sinful people. 2. Jesus
paid the full price for all of our sins. He not only substituted for
past present and future sins but for the consequences as well. We just
come to Him and He erases all of our sins. The more that we resist mans
attempts to get us to do something in order to be forgiven the more we
will grow in our confidence to do as we are called to do. 3.
Doctrine is practice. The more narrow we are in our beliefs the more we
are going to see our own expression of purpose define down the level of
frustration and anxiety. 4. Our problems in relationships is
that we do not find enough reality in expressing ourselves as we really
feel. We depend upon the experts to tell us how to think and feel. We
are more concerned about what others think of our expression than we are
about our own reality. 5. Our main problem is not that we
behave a certain way in ordering our lives to promote peace. But we do
not have a freedom within ourselves to think feel and act with complete
freedom. The stream of desire does not come from this complete holistic
paradigm. Our first impulse when we are struggling with a sin that is
hard to face is that we suppress our thinking... i mean we blame it on
the sin... in suppressing our thinking we limit our freedom to feel and
in limiting our freedom to feel we do things because some else defines
the normalcy of a society by threats and punishment. The weak people
never face that fear that they are being dominated. While the stronger
types become the dominate force. Both these extremes have the same
inward reality at work. 6. Change does not come through
exposure. Change comes through a determination to be dogmatic no matter
what. The path to change is through focusing on one thing and finding
all of our desires influenced and encouraged in assimilating the image
of that person into our souls. When we love one Person then we will not
find it difficult to talk in the rite way about everything else. There
are no rules in learning how to love. The rules create the motive to
talk about people in a way that enforces a wrong image in the purpose to
increase every ones value. 7. Real freedom is having a friend
who will be there to be an encouragement when we are exploding with
passionate discernment. Because we are made to think..feel ... and act
in a holistic way. Everything about our reality is dogmatic.
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