3812	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Prayers	on: March 03, 2010, 10:05:08 PM
Father we know that we are encouraged to tell you what is bothering us. We know that you listen to our cries and petitions. And you come to our aid because you do not enjoy watching us suffer. If we were not able to pour out our hearts to you then we would not know a true refuge on this earth. Father we want to unburden our hearts so that we experience your peace....that peace in which we are weened from the worries and cares of this world. For we walk in the way of peace. Turn to us and have mercy on us for we find so much loneliness and affliction in this world. Oh Father the troubles of our hearts have multiplied... our sins are more than the hairs of our heads and we do not know where to turn! Free us from our anguish. Oh look upon our affliction and our distress and take away all of our sins. See how our enemies have increased and how fiercely their hate is for us. Guard our lives and come to rescue us for we have called out to you. Father you are good and forgiving full of love to all who call on you. May you love and faithfulness protect us. When we are over whelmed with our sorrows you see our dark state. Sometimes we feel like a bird alone on a roof.  But you have compassion on us like a father has compassion on his children... because you have removed our sins as far as the east is from the west. This is why we clap our hands in praise before you. We shout to you with the cries of joy.. saying how awesome is the Lord most High the great King over all the earth. We will extol you all day long.
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3813  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: March 03, 2010, 09:37:18 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 03, 2010, 09:12:17 PM Can't totally agree with Martin.  It is not so much God we need to wake up as ourselves.  Usually when answers to prayer are delayed, there are changes that need to be made in us, to prepare us for His already-prepared answer. No one i know can make quite the same claim as Jesus, or we would see more resurrections of the dead:  “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”  Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”  John 11:41-43 Thanks Kk... I agree that prayer is mainly for us and not God... The psalmist says at the beginning of the book ... as a way to lay out the doctrine that He enters Gods house to bow down toward the holy temple by the mercy of God. Since God does not accept sinners on their own merits. And on that ground he then makes his plea...and this begins the long process of obtaining what he needs. Because God loves to here the cries of his sheep. Not only does He take pleasure in our asking but He encourages us to persist in the asking... this again is established in the first few psalms when he says that day by day he lays out his request and waits in expectation. We have here a very distinct activity of a believer. That is he is participating in pleading his case before the tribunal of God so that the believer becomes a learned heavenly lawyer. At the same time this pleading does not have the impersonal responses and arguments but it becomes the most transparent relationship on this earth. For we are encouraged to pour out our hearts before God. As if we had all of these sorrows and weights in our present experience and we go before God unburdening them before Him. And if we become well schooled in our approach then we find that the language we are encouraged to use actually draws us into a most profound witness of  the Spirit. When we draw near to God He promises to draw near to us.    Reply Quote Notify

3814  Forums / Theology Forum / OF THE DEVIL AND HIS WORKS Martin Luther on: March 03, 2010, 08:42:14 PM The greatest punishment God can afflict on the wicked, is when the church, to chastise them, delivers them over to Satan, who, with God’s permission, kills them, or makes them undergo great calamities. Many devils are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark pooly places, ready to hurt and prejudice people; some are also in the thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightnings, and thundering s, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds. When these things happen, then the philosophers and physicians say, it is natural, ascribing it to the planets, and showing I know not what reasons for such misfortunes and plagues as ensue. Whoso would see the true picture, shape, or image of the devil, and know how he is qualified and disposed, let him mark well all the commandments of God, one after another, and then let him place before his eyes an offensive, shameless, lying, despairing, ungodly, insolent, and blasphemous man or woman, whose mind and conceptions are directed in every way against God, and who takes delight in doing people hurt and mischief; there thou seest the right devil, carnal and corporal. First, in such a person there is no fear, no love, no faith or confidence in God, but altogether contempt, hatred, unbelief, despair, and blaspheming of God. There thou seest the devil’s head, directly opposing the first commandment. Reply Quote Notify

3815  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: March 03, 2010, 08:33:04 PM Prayer preserves the church, and hitherto has done the best for the church; therefore, we must continually pray. Hence Christ says: “Ask, and ye shall have; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.” "-First, when we are in trouble, he will have us to pray; for God often, as it were, hides himself, and will not hear; yea, will not suffer himself to be found. Then we must seek him; that is, we must continue in prayer. When we seek him, he often locks himself up, as it were, in a private chamber; if we intend to come in unto him, then we must knock, and when we have knocked once or twice, then he begins a little to hear. At last, when we make much knocking, then he opens, and says: What will ye have? Lord, say we, we would have this or that; then, say he, Take it unto you. In such sort must we persist in praying, and waken God up." Martin Luther ... table talk Reply Quote Notify

3816  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans Chapt. 5 commentary John Calvin on: March 03, 2010, 08:05:36 PM Tribulation produces (efficiat) patience, etc. This is not the natural effect of tribulation; for we see that a great portion of mankind are thereby instigated to murmur against God, and even to curse his name. But when that inward meekness, which is infused by the Spirit of God, and the consolation, which is conveyed by the same Spirit, succeed in the place of our stubbornness, then tribulations become the means of generating patience; yea, those tribulations, which in the obstinate can produce nothing but indignation and clamorous discontent. 4. Patience, probation, etc. James, adopting a similar gradation, seems to follow a different order; for he says, that patience proceeds from probation: but the different meaning of the word is what will reconcile both. Paul takes probation for the experience which the faithful have of the sure protection of God, when by relying on his aid they overcome all difficulties, even when they experience, whilst in patiently enduring they stand firm, how much avails the power of the Lord, which he has promised to be always present with his people. James takes the same word for tribulation itself, according to the common usage of Scripture; for by these God proves and tries his servants: and they are often called trials. According then to the present passage, we then only make advances in patience as we ought, when we regard it as having been continued to us by God’s power, and thus entertain hope as to the future, that God’s favor, which has ever succored us in our necessities, will never be wanting to us. Hence he subjoins, that from probation arises hope; for ungrateful we should be for benefits received, except the recollection of them confirms our hope as to what is to come. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3817  Forums / Theology Forum / Postmillennialism: The Vastness of the Redeemed Multitude by Loraine Boettner on: March 03, 2010, 07:57:18 PM I am an  amillennialist ... but this is such a great read... mainly quotes from BB Warfield ..... it gets me excited. The writer of the Apocalypse says: 'I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all the tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; and they cried with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb' (Rev. 7:9,10). God has chosen to redeem untold millions of the human race. Just what proportion of the race has been included in His purposes of mercy, we have not been informed; but in view of the future days of prosperity which are promised to the Church, it may be inferred that much the greater part eventually will be found among that number. Assuming that those who die in infancy are saved, as most churches have taught and as most theologians have believed, already much the larger proportion of the human race has been saved. In Revelation 19:11-21 we have a vision setting forth in figurative language the age-long struggle between the forces of good and the forces of evil in the world, with its promise of complete victory. There we read: 'And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but himself. And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood; and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and be treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 'And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with I a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses and of them that sit' thereon, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, and small and great. 'And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, : wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone: and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, even the sword which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.' Reply Quote Notify

3818  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 03, 2010, 07:46:56 PM Quote God's grace is not limited to what we might call His "covenant of grace".  He shows grace to all mankind, because of who He is, not who we are. Kk .. i agree with this but there is a difference between common grace and special grace. I think one is a secondary issue and the other special grace demands all of our attention. I do not think we are safe in thinking since there is common grace in society that we sort of blur the lines. Common grace will get you in the same place in eternity ...as the most sinful society. I do not disagree with the other statements. I mean as an over all teaching... there are specifics . That last Edwards post is a good discussion about what we are talking about here... i will use it to continue in the title of this thread... after your response. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3819  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: March 03, 2010, 07:40:30 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 03, 2010, 12:52:56 PM At first glance, i agree with that detailed definition of legalism.  Perhaps you could help me see any points that apply to my thinking which i don't yet see. Thank you very much, ourbigGod. 7. Attempting to attain godliness by a systematic change of behavior What do you think about this one? Remove Reply Quote Notify

3820  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: March 03, 2010, 07:25:32 PM Kk i must write a little long because i know this is a sensitive area. Kk i believe in the long spoon paradigm... you create a distance from the practical advice help that we have in this society with the activity of the church. I never want to discount the Spirits work in a person as a matter of how He has decided to bring that healing. But at the same time i do not think it is just one kind of program. I believe that we get off when we say that our advice is the only one to be followed. That is dangerous. So when i give advice its with the encouragement to first seek the Lord... to understand things as they create a kind of power that we trust in as a matter of keeping the flow of Gods grace to be full and strong. So i always start from what i believe and then that becomes my total defense in this world. The ideal world is where we have Christians who have a healthy knowledge of the bible as it is exergeted to mean. That is an all around knowledge of the doctrines of grace ... mainly. And then they begin to apply this in their worship..both public and private... in their prayers so they begin to focus on the eternal verities of the faith and they experience the depth and the riches of this wisdom that comes from above. The bible calls this seeking wisdom.. as it is doctrinally sound and then searching for it as gold... digging ... comparing...  loving... praising and worshiping in this biblical way. We can term this as counsel.. that comes in the nite and in our worship. This counsel that we have is both intellectual and spiritual. This is why i am not to keen on the awareness of these programs. The sermon on the mount is used as a teaching that is a way to God which is not really true. I believe that we need to have a knowledge of the whole bible to balance out biblical mandates. So i would see most of these steps as individual.. according to the situation.. the people involved and subject to the guidance of the Spirit and prayer. In the ot proverbs we have these different applications to the same looking situations. What is being shown here is there is no difference in the approach to truth in the psalms or the proverbs... both are saying the same thing. And this life is full of these kinds of conflicts... a man will defend his position as a matter of doctrine with the most passionate plea... its just in the nature of man to find this kind of conflict to be heated. This is why in a sense it is saying that if you want to know how a man lives his life ask him about his doctrinal approach to this life. This is part of being in the front lines of the conflict. The only other way to avoid this heat is to make everything practical and then you become the center of focus. Its said that a top ten football team must get to a point where they come to a pivotal game in a season and come out in victory. So if they lose the pivotal games then there is not much heat cause they are not in the position to be on top. I mean there is a difference in the conflict between a top ten team and a team in the rest of the top twenty. When we begin to discuss things and it becomes focused on doctrine then we have entered the top ten conflict. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3821  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 03, 2010, 01:32:17 PM Kk i will need to talk at you later ... i got to leave for a few hours... be back to respond... thanks for your patience. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3822  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: March 03, 2010, 01:27:43 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 03, 2010, 01:15:25 PM From my "12 step" experience, here is an outline for intensive "counseling". Work/talk/pray with the "therapist" to do the following: ---- 1. Admit how a self-will run life led to my powerless and unmanageable life. 2. Come to believe that Jesus Christ can restore me to the sanity He intends. 3. Make a full commitment to let Him guide and take care of my life and will. 4. Make a searching and fearless inventory of what He reveals needs changing. 5. Admit to God, myself and my therapist, the exact nature of my wrongs. 6. Become ready to have Jesus remove my old nature and give me a new one. 7. Humbly ask Him to make me a new creation, in Him, and thank Him for doing so. 8. Let Him remind me of who i need to make amends to, and pray for the forgiveness and willingness to make them. 9. Under His direction and timing, make direct amends to those so indicated. 10. Continue to examine my behavior being alert to the Spirit's conviction. 11. Seek through prayer and meditation to understand God's will for me and to receive the power to carry that out. 12. In the spiritual awakening that He provides, carry His message to others and practice the above principles in all my affairs. ---- And the "therapist" should keep the focus on Christ who is doing the real work in the heart, while i am only following His direction and enabling.  Thus all the glory goes to God and i get the eternal gratitude. This is only a personal interpretation of the "12 steps", of course.  The actual wording is available in many places on the web.  A good place to start is the "Serenity Bible" or "Life Recovery Bible", since they show not just the steps but also the Scriptures which the steps summarize. The 12 Steps     * Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable     * Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity     * Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God     * Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves     * Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs     * Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character     * Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings     * Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all     * Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others     * Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it     * Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out     * Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs Isnt this the steps here? Did you add the reformed language or is there a different 12 step? What about the montra Help me to change the things that i can to accept the things i cant and the wisdom to know the difference. Is this also part of that? Remove Reply Quote Notify

3823  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 03, 2010, 01:16:44 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 03, 2010, 12:47:31 PM Well, mbG, i wasn't wanting to weary anyone with a burden of law. Legalism kills.  The Spirit gives life.  And the "Rule" of the Kingdom is loving-kindness, mercy and grace.  This is the highest Law, the heart of all His laws.  His love cannot be separated from His grace, and the two great Commandments are to love as He loves, by His graceful empowerment. I hope your horns can go back down, and you don't have to get mean.    The sum of the law is the law of love. That is not the covenant of grace... Christ was the only one who did the law so that He is the only one who loved God perfectly. The law ask a question of compliance... the covenant of grace has no demands. It is free. When we obey from the heart we turn to the gospel. Thats it.  The eternal love of God is His loving kindness displayed in Christ ...given to His own by grace alone through faith alone... in Christ alone. The law leads us to Christ. When we look at the law we see Christ who obeyed the law perfectly.. He did what we could not do. He was is the law of love. God loves us and then we love one another. We are loved first and then we can love. Gods love extended to us is free. There is not a question of a response in the covenant of grace. We just receive it and obey it by turning to Christ. Remove Reply Quote Notify

3824  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: March 03, 2010, 12:44:53 PM A Definition of Legalism 1. Using the Mosaic covenant as though it is the covenant between you and God. 2. Attempting to be justified by one's own works. 3. Attempting to be sanctified by one's own works 4. Suggesting that our worth or worthlessness, our self-esteem and self-satisfaction or lack thereof, rest on our own works. 5. Any attempt to please God judicially, or any supposition that our sin as believers has resulted in his judicial displeasure. [Any post-salvation attempt to maintain our judicial standing before God through good works, covenant faithfulness, merit etc..] 6. Teaching that we conform ourselves to our judicial standing in Christ (righteous and perfect) by our own works. 7. Attempting to attain godliness by a systematic change of behavior 8. Obedience that does not spring from a renewed heart a. As of an unbeliever who has no renewed heart b. As of a believer who has a renewed heart but whose righteous behavior does not spring therefrom. 9. Any supposition that externally righteous acts have any value on their own, even as conduct that prepares the way for either a. A renewed heart (preparationism as regards justification), b. The softening or further renewing of an already renewed heart (preparationism as regards sanctification. Note Romans 12:2-Transformation occurs through the renewing of the mind), or c. Any other work of the Spirit. 10. Suggesting that faith is irrelevant in the accomplishment of some (or all) good works. 11. Trying to be justified by works that are created and inspired by the Holy Spirit. 12. Attempting to gain assurance of salvation solely or primarily on the basis of the sign of outward works. - Bill Baldwin Remove Reply Quote Notify

3825	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101	on: March 03, 2010, 11:54:09 AM
Quote from: Kings_kid on March 02, 2010, 09:00:25 PM I also enjoy this type of discussion, in which "iron sharpens iron", more than either the attack/debate style, which i am too familiar with, or the "overwhelm them with sheer volume of data" approach.  Interactive equals, open to correction, appreciative of new insights.  'Tis to rare a phenomenon in my experience. I agree that we cannot make Grace into a law, in the legalistic sense.  Yet isn't His Grace/Mercy in action the highest Law of His Kingdom?  Even in the Old Testament He revealed to us His true nature: ===== Then the Lord came down in a cloud and stood there with him; and he called out his own name, Yahweh (YHWH).  The Lord passed in front of Moses, calling out, “Yahweh! (YHWH) The Lord!   The God of compassion and mercy!   I am slow to anger and filled with unfailing love and faithfulness.   I lavish unfailing love to a thousand generations.   I forgive iniquity, rebellion, and sin.   But I do not excuse the guilty."                Exodus 34:5-7 NLT Yes Kk ... but this is a promise.. it is in the covenant of grace.. which is the covenant that is one sided... and it is the first covenant that God made with His people.. that is why salvation has always been by faith through grace ... because that promise to Abraham was a promise that the gospel would go out to the ends of the earth... and we all would be Abraham s seed. Really  was the loving and faithful God who is outside of time and sees everything as present so that He knows who are His from the beginning to the end. This is the way God dealt with His remnant. So that when we say salvation is in God alone .. we are saying that every issue in our lives whether it is a trial or on the other hand a blessing is out of the unfailing love of the Father. This is how God captivated us ... i mean ... He encourages His children to come to the table and eat of all the good things that He has prepared for us. So that every voice that we hear is a voice of our Fathers concern for us. We love God because He first loved us... Which is a reference to His covenant of grace that He gave to us from Abraham.  Now this is confusing to the greek way of thinking of the nt... along with the American culture. Because we carry around in our minds the idea that we have the highest morals because we keep all of the bad language and the sex stuff off of the basic Tv.. so  you got to search for it .. so we have always had a culture that present the American way to live  and then we judge all the public about these standards. This is the American puritanism. But in the OT the jewish people considered themselves special by a covenant that God made with the people and it included a theocracy.There was more a connection to God in the connection. Believe it or not we also are a covenant nation. We believe in the constitution to uphold it... that being a covenant with the people. But we do not see like Israel ....that the covenant puts us in this  free spirit as a member of Gods goodness. Rather we have been shielded from this kind of thinking because we are a republic and not a theocracy. But in the OT everything was determined to proceed in the nation because they were Gods people by promise. They understood the nature of the eternal love of the Father as the basis for their confidence more than we do on this side of the cross. And the world has influenced the American church which is also why things are so confusing.  This is why dispensation al teaching is really a semi plg document. K k i have a line that cannot be crossed... and that is mixing law with grace.. then my horns go up and i become very mean. Cause i want to rescue the weary not burden them.  3826  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: March 02, 2010, 02:14:37 PM Kk... Our victory/overcoming thrills are "glory-bites", so to speak.  Bring on the main course, Lord!  Please Maranatha!  Thanks Kk... yes... and this glorious experience is in the glory of the Lord who reigns from glory. We are in this presence that expands to the ends of the earth. So when we talk about light we are talking about it in an eternal sense. When we are talking about out great defense we are talking about the vision of a clarity of imaginative colors that transpose the heavens of our great God coming to the earth to focus on our salvation... not only in terms of one day being transported to this throne but in terms of experiencing an infusion of confidence and assurance. And in some ways this presence is imaginative about the written promise.  In this presence is a counsel of our present struggles.. in the powers that we feel of this world ... being transposed to lessen under the power of His present voice in the promise. So that we are imagining this glory that shines through all the earth to blanket our place of dwelling and bring us under the power of the heavenly visions. This is the blessed state of that eternal counsel.    3828  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: March 02, 2010, 01:57:46 PM Ok we need to be careful about making this a law... the law is that we want to do the sin more. Now the desires we have are not evil in themselves... its our distinguishing between what is true about the object... maybe there are reasons to react.... but we must obtain this overcoming in our thinking with a good spiritual understanding ... ie... the more we are exposed to the means of grace... the more we are going to be able to see how we are to live in this rite disposition... thats a new word. It means that we carry a certain confidence about our reactions to things.  Let me say this ... as a matter of keeping the focus.... when we sin we entertain the desire... but we do this all the time. The apostle says i want to do good but i dont do it.  In other words he is saying that the battle is the evidence that we are doing the good and not necessarily the victory. In other words we start from a position of impossibility and it becomes possible to overcome. We are dealing here with a true spiritual desire and not indifference through self effort.  Ok this is new territory. sorrow.. i will back up if you want.  Reply Quote Notify 3829  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 01:38:57 PM K_k:  Yes, and the sin is to choose to eat garbage out of the dumpster of hatred, greed and lust, while He invites us to His beautiful feast in our very honor. Ok this is such a good discussion.. everyone is expressing a kind and positive help to encourage this grace. And i hope that when we are dealing with the possibilities of failure in this life that we are sensitive to one another ... i mean.. if we come like a bull in a china shop then we are taking these doctrines of grace and pointing them in this manner of making grace a law. Let me say this about the process of mortification... we are not dealing here with the warning to fall... we are dealing with the warning to apostasy. And we are also dealing with a description of a fail safe shelter of Gods eternal love. In other words we really are not evil people who are exposing ourselves to the wolves of lust and greed but we are the glorious ones who go astray only to have our Father come to get us again. Ok i will keep it short. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3830  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 12:52:35 PM ok i need to take about 10 mins or so to do something and then come back... Remove Reply Quote Notify 3831  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 12:48:32 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 02, 2010, 12:40:26 PM mybigGod:  "Just because we think about evil does not make it a sin." K_k:  If we have an evil thought that is not a sin.  If we have an evil thought and relish dwelling on it, planning how to act on it, etc, then it is a sin.  Because we have shut out all receptivity to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit in order to enjoy the imagined action.  And it is this conscious choice to sever relationship with God that is the root of all sin.  Even if it is temporary, or only a split-second, and in the mind only, the sin is to choose our perceived pleasure over His promptings of righteousness.  (It may not have been an apple in the Garden, but i'd bet it looked real tasty...) Ok we need to be careful about making this a law... the law is that we want to do the sin more. Now the desires we have are not evil in themselves... its our distinguishing between what is true about the object... maybe there are reasons to react.... but we must obtain this overcoming in our thinking with a good spiritual understanding ... ie... the more we are exposed to the means of grace... the more we are going to be able to see how we are to live in this rite disposition... thats a new word. It means that we carry a certain confidence about our reactions to things.  Let me say this ... as a matter of keeping the focus.... when we sin we entertain the desire... but we do this all the time. The apostle says i want to do good but i dont do it.  In other words he is saying that the battle is the evidence that we are doing the good and not necessarily the victory. In other words we start from a position of impossibility and it becomes possible to overcome. We are dealing here with a true spiritual desire and not indifference through self effort.  Ok this is new territory. sorrow.. i will back up if you want.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3832  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 12:36:18 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 02, 2010, 12:25:40 PM mybigGod:  "The choice is not the mind- desire action...that is nothing... the choice is the motion toward the object." K_k:  Then please explain His words: "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment."  Matthew 5:22 This doesn't imply motion, although motion could be the result.  True?    Yes but the anger is prescribed in scripture... righteous indignation.... so that we need to distinguish when it turns into sin... but it will come out on the face... it will come out on the tongue... there is always physical motion involved. David says in your anger do not sin.. when your on your bed search your heart and make rite sacrifices. Then that progression.. which is God searching the heart through these different modes of grace.. Davids  keeping silent... that is in the sigh.... like mourning... rejoicing... the sermon on the mount. We do this as a means of mortification but it comes out as vivification... and expression of anger in prayer... the rolling it over to God... then we are filled with the love of God from the cries of the heart... expression of anguish... and then the Psalmist says you have given me greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound... we eat from Gods riches that He gives us at His spiritual table... calling out to Him for grace... asking Him to give us peace etc... which translates into a longing for the living God.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3833  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 12:26:28 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 02, 2010, 12:11:20 PM mybigGod:  "Our entire lives can be compared making a list of all of the movements that we have made... i mean .. even the turning of the head as showing all of our choices? Like a time-line..." K_k:  Yes that is true, but incomplete i think.  I can choose to lust after a woman or a car or a pot gold by simply using my mind with no body motion at all.  Our imaginations would have to be included in your "list of all of the movements that we have made".  Which is what Jesus was driving at, wasn't He? There is sin in the mind...i mean before it bears fruit. But for every act we do the cause is the desire for that pleasure. Just because we think about evil does not make it a sin. It does not turn into a habit cause we stop it at the point of the thought.  This is why we need to increase or feed our good desires and decrease our evil desires. Its like a slow progression. Mortification... illumination and vivification. If the sinful desire is stronger than the righteous desire then it will come out in our actions.  The desire is not necessarily evil. I am just saying that we act upon what we are pleased with. We never start from a position of perfect indifference toward the object of choice. This is something new to discuss.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3834  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: March 02, 2010, 12:13:22 PM He says in rev... that the last saint will sound the end. He has always kept numbers. This particular thread comes with a warning.... its my exploring one. But the above statement is a fact. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3835  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: March 02, 2010, 12:02:19 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 02, 2010, 11:47:53 AM You seem to say that past generations had some healing powers which have disappeared.  And those healing powers are what is truly needed in this day and age.  But our best scientific imitations of those powers are coming too late.  Did i get it right? Yes... theres got to be repercussions as time goes on. I mean we dont have the same view as God does... and it may be that He has brought a whole generation to Himself and left most of the  fools on the earth. ... things will be much different in the end than we view them now .. yet that is why He has salvation.. the number. The foundations are real foundations that get destroyed.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 3836  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: March 02, 2010, 11:37:39 AM The world is experiencing a degeneration in every area... so that there is a point where the principle of the fall we meet the knowledge of the scientific remedy and it will be too late. Because most of the answers to a new way of healing are in the physical qualities of generations gone by. Its the same principle of the moral deli ma we have declining into this present degenerate society. In the births are the remedies of the present defense of all of these opposed forces. We have killed off a generation of that remedy. So that the amount of healing is buried in the destruction of life. When God cursed the world these modes of transporting powers were cause do degenerate. So that the time between the original and the present have a loss in the redeeming value.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 3837  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Augustine... Summa Theoligica on: March 02, 2010, 11:27:15 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 01, 2010, 10:23:43 PM Augustine:  "But there is one kind of natural order in the conversion and changeableness of bodies, which, although itself also serves the bidding of God, yet by reason of its unbroken continuity has ceased to cause wonder; as is the case, for instance, with those things which are changed either in very short, or at any rate not long, intervals oftime..." K_k:  What came to my mind are the trillions of cells in our bodies which are constantly in minute motion, and have more trillions of trillions of organelles in constant motion. and yet we have become so used to hearing about such things and perhaps seeing pictures or videos of the cell, that we can easily just accept them as a "part of the natural order".  And thereby forget that it is only the hand of God that maintains their existence and functioning. Like did you know that when we get a cut on the skin, and the wound begins to heal, that a certain kind of cell is sent up to the edge of the wound and then "commits suicide", giving its life to form a small part of a skin bridge over the wound.  And then the next bridge cell moves to the edge and dies, then the next and the next and the next and then we have the beginnings of a scab over the cut. Wouldn't it be nice to be taught in school that God has created for each of us molecular creature-machines who lay down their lives so that we can be healed?  Dream on. Good analogy Kk.. the more we try to dig to find out who is behind these discoveries the more we are convinced of this infinite progression... and yet we think we are close to the bottom... dream on. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3838  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 10:29:28 AM No because God determines our desires ... and that gives us more freedom to enjoy all things. I dont think that our choices are caused from a source that is inside of us. I am tempted to say ultimately determines but that would weaken this idea of dependence. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3839  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 09:35:09 AM Quote from: Joker on March 02, 2010, 09:31:40 AM Quote from: Biggie The choice is not the mind- desire action...that is nothing... the choice is the motion toward the object.  On the contrary, the mind-desire action IS the choice.  Behavior, motion toward the object, is only the result of the desire. Are you insinuating that what i think makes me more personally responsible that what i do? I am confused. I mean i dont want to confuse the cause with the actual end. There is a real distinction there. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3840  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: March 02, 2010, 09:26:27 AM Lets compare Gods eternal love to an imitation of that love. Lets say that Gods love represents this huge pitcher of the pure water. I mean this pitcher is so big we cannot look upon its circumference. Now this is the composition of Gods love or its being in the love of God as represented as being poured out into a glass. This is a imperfect imitation of Gods love.. because it is not potentially able to mirror Gods eternal composition. Now then man is represented in the glass... but man determines to make the glass the real imitation of Gods composite in the reality of love. This is man imagining the reality of love. My point being that as God is'.... that is the composition in the glass. So that there is no distinction in the goodness of love as that expression of love. The reality is drawn in describing that distinction not in focusing on the composition of the glass. This is why grace must precede everything.   3841  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 08:56:42 AM Quote from: Joker on March 02, 2010, 08:43:58 AM Quote from: biggie Yes... i agree... we are a bundle of desires.. and yet.. our world view is that we have the power to fulfill our desires for ourselves by our freedom to choose based upon our that which our minds are most pleased with. But is that not just the mind manipulating its own desires before manifesting those desires in behavior? We need to make a distinction between an intellectual consciousness and the actual experience in the cause. means and  ends. Experiences do not happen by chance... there is always a cause. What is the cause of a choice? Simply its what i like most ... its what i want. But at the same time how do we chose something that we do not have some kind of rational explanation? Even tho it is rational we are not always pleased to have that as an experience. I mean we know what is good we do not do it. So that there is something else there other than a knowledge of . There is a desire that is stronger. Or there is a cause for all of our choices. That is the exercise of freedom... having the experience of the enjoyment of our actual experiencing that object of choice. The choice is not the mind- desire action...that is nothing... the choice is the motion toward the object.    Remove Reply Quote Notify 3842  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: March 02, 2010, 08:32:51 AM Its terribly important to see that Christ is the eternal Son of God who existed as God from all eternity. And that He is God even if there is this time sequence in which He enjoyed the same relationship as God ... being equal with the Father and also holding the whole world together as eternally present... i mean.. in the most minute detail that has the written definition of time. Something that speaks of a thought that has not been revealed. Salvation is in God who never changes and its secure because it does not depend on time in order to fulfill its purposes ... rather it was fulfilled in time because it started in God and it ends in God. So that when we seek for salvation we are consumed by the communication of the Eternal Son-ship of God. I mean... salvation has never changed even before it was worked out in time. He is a covenant keeping God because His love is eternal... it is secure..it is that which we cannot escape because it is not dependent upon time. I mean as divine. If Gods love is extended that far... then the more that salvation is seen as being in God the more we are going to praise Him. I dont think we give enough thought of this high view of Gods rule in eternity because it is hard to put into words. When we walk around in this world .. it is because we are consumed with this outside this world principle.. that we begin to desire what we will see. I do not think that we can have a strong faith unless it looks beyond the present state of things ... i mean to actualizing as the assurance. I call this the fourth dimension.   Remove Reply Quote Notify 3843  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: March 02, 2010, 08:13:20 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 01, 2010, 01:46:48 PM OK, deal. mbG: "Every thing in the universe is designed by God to create the most pleasant and glorious experience in light of Gods eternal love being expressed as the stream of pleasure in these created casual paradigms.I do not even think that the Spirit can naturally lead a man to this enjoyment. I mean in a direct way." K_k:  I question this because it seems to me that i have had the Spirit give me, directly, enjoyments that were beyond my ability/understanding/righteousness-level at that time.  These were provided as the "carrot before the donkey" i mentioned earlier. Not permanent gifts, they were tastes of states to come.  And some of those "states of heart-soul" will not be on-going until the Rapture (or equivalent experience).  But, for now they serve to confirm His existence, His acceptance of and love for us; and strengthen the hope that That Day will really be the first of the best days of the rest of our lives, forever. Haven't you had such experiences? I think the context was in that time in which we are being dragged to God in order to be regenerated. I mean.. there are some very distinct experiences when we are talking about going from one state of being to another. There are three or four states... unregenerate... regenerate... and the heavenly state or the eternal state.. both heaven and hell. And possibly a state of healing or the miraculous state in which we experience going through the opposition what ever it is and coming out a victor. Not necessarily a complete experience but there is a sense in which the ongoing nature of salvation is a clear speaking victory. As an encouragement to seek God more than normal. Which does not parallel the line of obedience. And its not mystical. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3844  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 07:59:00 AM Quote from: Joker on March 02, 2010, 07:47:30 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 02, 2010, 02:15:54 AM If i, deep down, want to go to the store badly, but don't because it is too cold outside or too far and my car is broken (or thousands of other constraints) -- then my will is to go to the store and i would act on it if conditions were slightly different. Then your "will" at any one time is the vector sum total of thousands of individual desires (or "wills") of different strengths and directions.   In your example above, the "will" to be warm and comfortable overcomes the "will" to go to the store - but when you get really hungry, your desire for food overcomes the desire to be warm.  (When talking about "God's will", Retrobyter advises differentiating between "God's desires" and "God's plan", a distinction I find helpful.) Some desires are innate and biological, like survival needs such as food, air, and water, or psychological, like the need for self-worth.  Other desires are created through life experience.  The strength of each individual desire can be manipulated by other entities.  The whole purpose of education, political propaganda, marketing, and advertising is to create and manipulate desires.  For example, the beer company puts out ads with attractive girls in bikinis to associate sexual fulfillment with the desire for beer.  Bad experience with the product (it really wasn't that tasty, and there weren't any girls in bikinis) decreases future desire for the product.  The whole system of rewards and punishments society uses is there to manipulate the strength of desires  - to reinforce some desires and discourage others - to control behavior. So that's what our "will" is - a complete mess of conflicting desires. The more people who get into this thang the better... And i knooooon Joker for a some time now in the internet world. Yes... i agree... we are a bundle of desires.. and yet.. our world view is that we have the power to fulfill our desires for ourselves by our freedom to choose based upon our that which our minds are most pleased with. And we can experience the full pleasure of that thing without sinning. At the same time God uses the excess of the world as the instrument to give us a better product to enjoy. There are two worlds... both necessary.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 3845  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 02, 2010, 07:04:45 AM Quote from: Kings_kid on March 02, 2010, 02:15:54 AM If i, deep down, want to go to the store badly, but don't because it is too cold outside or too far and my car is broken (or thousands of other constraints) -- then my will is to go to the store and i would act on it if conditions were slightly different. Your original definition seemed to imply that if no motion toward the desired goal took place then free will was not exercised.  But the ability to choose wasn't eliminated by the constraints, only the ability to execute the desired action. Thus, Jesus could say that lusting after a woman in one's heart was equal to adultery, even if no outward action toward the goal took place due to constraints.  The will was still free to fantasize, and that is morally equated to the actual act.  Yes? You cant lust unless your eyes are fixed on the object... or your head is turned. Which involves body motion.  And there is a difference between lusting and appreciating i mean... not desiring for ones self so as to ... The point is that the sequence is i chose to look then i looked again.. then i lusted. We can keep this thread with short responses ... but i cant promise that my other threads are going to be short. And thanks for the encouragement in the other responses... i ve been feeling run down lately... I guess all memories come from an object of pleasure that we decided to look at first.. and then store it in the memory bank so to speak... you know? What do you think about this proposition? ... Our entire lives can be compared making a list of all of the movements that we have made... i mean .. even the turning of the head as showing all of our choices? Like a time-line... Remove Reply Quote Notify 3846  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Augustine... Summa Theoligica on: March 01, 2010, 09:57:00 PM Austin.... Chapter 2.— The Will of God is the Higher Cause of All Corporeal Change. This is Shown by an Example. 7. But there is one kind of natural order in the conversion and changeableness of bodies, which, although itself also serves the bidding of God, yet by reason of its unbroken continuity has ceased to cause wonder; as is the case, for instance, with those things which are changed either in very short, or at any rate not long, intervals oftime, in heaven, or earth, or sea; whether it be in rising, or in setting, or in change of appearance from time to time ; while there are other things, which, although arising from that same order, yet are less familiar on account of longer intervals oftime. And these things, although the many stupidly wonder at them, yet are understood by those who inquire into this present world, and in the progress of generations become so much the less wonderful, as they are the more often repeated and known by more people. Such are the eclipses of the sun and moon, and some kinds of stars, appearing seldom, and earthquakes, and unnatural births of living creatures, and other similar things; of which not one takes place without the will of God; yet, that it is so, is to most people not apparent. And so the vanity of philosophers has found license to assign these things also to other causes, true causes perhaps, but proximate ones, while they are not able to see at all the cause that is higher than all others, that is, the will of God; or again to false causes, and to such as are not even put forward out of any diligent investigation of corporeal things and motions, but from their own guess and error. 8. I will bring forward an example, if I can, that this may be plainer. There is, we know, in the human body, a certain bulk of flesh and an outward form, and an arrangement and distraction of limbs, and a temperament of health; and a soul breathed into it governs this body, and that soul a rational one; which, therefore, although changeable, yet can be partaker of that unchangeable wisdom, so that "it may partake of that which is in and of itself;" as it is written in the Psalm concerning all saints, of whom as of living stones is built that Jerusalem which is the mother of us all, eternal in the heavens. For so it is sung, "Jerusalem is built as a city, that is partaker of that which is in and of itself." For "in and of itself," in that place, is understood of that chiefest and unchangeable good, which is God, and of His own wisdom and will. To whom is sung in another place, "You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are the same." Remove Reply Quote Notify 3847  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Augustine... Summa Theoligica on: March 01, 2010, 09:18:09 PM I think he is saying that there is the generic part of mankind...(of course i need to digest this after reading through the whole reasoning)....  like all men have the same kind of bodies.. unless of course there are birth defects. But then there are individual characteristic in the individual. These make up things that are forms but not matter. His term is suppositum. We can only think that God is a form because of the use of the phrase ... "in God" but God is not a composite. So that the individual characteristics that are forms are characteristics of God. Although... and i got a little insight about this from Aquinas today... maybe i should bring in Aquinas as well. There is a difference between the mode of something and the potential of the created order... that being nature. The limits in our fallen flesh are not sin. Which i think Austin alludes to here about the defective imitation of God. Of which of course i am going to develop my own application of all of this after much soul meditation and thought. You know what ... this is ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ... it wasnt a good nite last nite for me... sorrwy ...  ok i got to find Austin as well... he is a bit more clear about this. I was reading in the book store the other day and it was a better translation of St Thomas. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3848  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans Chapt. 5 commentary John Calvin on: March 01, 2010, 08:51:33 PM 3. Not only so, etc. That no one might scoffingly object and say, that Christians, with all their glorying, are yet strangely harassed and distressed in this life, which condition is far from being a happy one, — he meets this objection, and declares, not only that the godly are prevented by these calamities from being blessed, but also that their glorying is thereby promoted. To prove this he takes his argument from the effects, and adopts a remarkable gradation, and at last concludes, that all the sorrows we endure contribute to our salvation and final good. By saying that the saints glory in tribulations, he is not to be understood, as though they dreaded not, nor avoided adversities, or were not distressed with their bitterness when they happened, (for there is no patience when there is no feeling of bitterness;) but as in their grief and sorrow they are not without great consolation, because they regard that whatever they bear is dispensed to them for good by the hand of a most indulgent Father, they are justly said to glory: for whenever salvation is promoted, there is not wanting a reason for glorying. We are then taught here what is the design of our tribulations, if indeed we would prove ourselves to be the children of God. They ought to habituate us to patience; and if they do not answer this end, the work of the Lord is rendered void and of none effect through our corruption: for how does he prove that adversities do not hinder the glorying of the faithful, except that by their patience in enduring them, they feel the help of God, which nourishes and confirms their hope? They then who do not learn patience, do not, it is certain, make good progress. Nor is it any objection, that there are recorded in Scripture some complaints full of despondency, which the saints had made: for the Lord sometimes so depresses and straitens for a time his people, that they can hardly breathe, and can hardly remember any source of consolation; but in a moment he brings to life those whom he had nearly sunk in the darkness of death. So that what Paul says is always accomplished in them — “We are in every way oppressed, but not made anxious; we are in danger, but we are not in despair; we suffer persecution, but we are not forsaken; we are cast down but we are not destroyed.” (2 Corinthians 4:8.) Remove Reply Quote Notify 3849  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: March 01, 2010, 07:41:46 PM questions... whats the difference ?.. one is i wanted to do it but i did not do it... or i chose not to do it?... In other words you decide you are going to go to the store but then instead of going to the store you end up staying home and watching your favorite game of the week. Now is it proper as proving that you choose something to say? ... i chose not to go to the store.  Remove Reply Quote Notify 3850  Forums / Theology Forum / Simple Philosophical discussion 101 on: February 28, 2010, 03:11:05 PM Ok... the will is free because the act is preformed. If there was not a motion toward the next movement then that is not an exercise of the will. Lets say i am thinking about going to the store. Now just because i want to go to the store does not prove that my will is free. But when i make a motion with my body to go to the store ... then i am exercising my will... that is the freedom.  Reply Quote Notify 3851  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Augustine... Summa Theoligica on: February 28, 2010, 02:48:33 PM Ok i never thought of this... there is a difference between an individual attribute and the form of humanity. How do we define that attribute as a human form? Interesting... proof of God. Remove Reply Quote Notify 3852  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Invitations to forgiveness on: February 28, 2010, 02:39:51 PM I agree ... i mean...tracts are good... but i am more for being there in a relationship and then exposing them to all of my weaknesses as well. Reply Quote Notify 3853  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Counseling and how to deal with it. on: February 28, 2010, 02:36:13 PM I know that you do not have the quality time i have available to me. So maybe you can pick something that interest you and then i will discuss it with you... if you question maybe one of my statements then i can esplain... ok... i know... its hard for me to say a few things... i will try Remove Reply Quote Notify 3854  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans Chapt. 5 commentary John Calvin on: February 28, 2010, 02:30:48 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on February 28, 2010, 02:12:13 PM I'm hungry enough and desperate enough to be as patient as i can, which isn't always much.  Yet, i doubt that i am alone in feeling like there is just too much volume of postings for my computer-time-allotment (by wife). Thus, i would rather have an intense, short but sweet, interaction, instead of having to wade through reams of electronic printout trying to digest the electronic meat.  Leads to indigestion sometimes.    In conclusion to this particular instantiation of deep philosophical discourse, please feel free to start a simplified, streamlined, beginners-level (with advanced underpinnings), easy-gradient approach to theology, especially as it relates to Grace and the Glory of God.  I'd jump on that like a mosquito in a nudist-camp! What say ye, my infinite Master's finite-master-mind? Can you explain yourself? hehe.... no i understand... i am thinking tho...that you are digesting Austin just fine ... am i not reading this rite? Remove Reply Quote Notify 3855  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Prayers on: February 28, 2010, 02:26:30 PM Quote from: Kings_kid on February 28, 2010, 02:20:33 PM As one kid-king of the True King to another, you've taken a lot of words right out of my mouth.  Which saves me a lot of typing.  Thanks, holy relative. If you stick around here we could develop a king dred spirit...hehe