4081	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why did God let Eve do it?	on: December 06, 2009, 10:32:21 AM
I think thats the mystery of the ages. How can someone who has no inclination to do evil actually choose to do evil? Even tho evil exist ... now listen to me.. all you who believe in free will after the fall... even tho evil exist you cant make a doctrine that makes a human being culpable to its effects!! Let me say this .. we are facing something that has never been so fierce in its opposition.  Most of the opposition we have faced has come as a matter of direct hostility to the christian world view. What we are facing to day is the redefinition of all that we believe as the real definition attached to an edict from heaven! So that whatever concept of general revelation or special revelation we hold as dear.. i mean... and dont believe that each individual doctrine does not carry enough weight to oppose Satan and his teachers! Your probably saying ... dude you are getting into this stuff in a  way that is purely defining it as us against the devil or its making us appear to the world as if we are fighting against things that do not have a good reason to exist. And of course the philosophers of this world have defined us as (narcissist = Calvinist) But as a matter of dealing with ourselves we are more heavenly minded than earthly and we are personally involved in living in another world!! Look dont be soo weak people!! Fill you minds with the eternal word of God under the opposition of whatever society defines as true!! Now then this is what free will post fall is all about. It does iron out into a form of another god! It is that inner voice that wants a quick answer to all that transpires. It is the trust in man that determines the way to go.. it is in the belief that there are common grace truths that mirror divine revelation! I warn you ... do not fill your mind with things that are good but have no answers to this worlds problems! I am not talking about the real opposition of total depravity. I am talking about things that are neutral that are a total waste of time. Things that help you feel comfortable in a world where every thing is determined by choice and not desire!! I am not dealing with this debate as if i am able to answer this question. I am dealing with it as what kind of temptations we face as this world becomes one that defines Christianity as acceptable as an alternative!! Where the ends are determined by a nation.. a people.. a physical set of laws that cannot be violated...a purely totalitarian view of the American business community and a trust in governments that leads one to a course of having no opposition from the children of Satan. Look there is only two ways in this world. One way is the way of freedom.. it is a spiritual renewal to see all that transpires in this world is moved along by the Personal effect of one who speaks a word and it is done ... or it is a world were all other agencies and things are declining. Mens hearts are either subject to new life or they are being hardened as we speak. There is no such thing as equilibrium free will!! Ps 103  5 who satisfies your desires with good things        so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's.  6 The LORD works righteousness        and justice for all the oppressed. Who?
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4082  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ... on: December 04, 2009, 12:38:58 PM Heb 3 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. He covered all the sins of the people in the OT? Doesnt look any different than the new covenant here. Reply Quote Notify

4083  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ... on: December 04, 2009, 11:45:37 AM Quote from: beacon2 on December 04, 2009, 11:16:41 AM Quote from: Joker on December 04, 2009, 09:21:37 AM Quote This is a distinction without a difference. Either way, the Father was in Christ at the Cross--a past event.   Therefore, the continuing action of reconciling happened at that time. I see my mistake.  I'm thinking of katallasso in the sense of definition 1a "reconciling those who are at variance", as in both sides of the relationship.  The "to Himself" in verse 19 indicates that what God was doing in Christ was "receiving the world into His favor", in line with definition 1c.   In the next verse, Paul implores humanity to be reconciled: We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. (NIV)  Lay down your arms.  Turn to God in faith.  Then reconciliation is complete.  Thank you Joker!     Ps 133 b2 Wow a potential will is actually a cause for a reason.... more like a contradiction. theres no will unless there is an actual direction. A potential will actually carries more weight than the reality of being dead in sins and trespasses.... now thats a dream world. Reply Quote Notify

4084  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Decompostion of the Secularist Voice. on: December 04, 2009, 10:42:49 AM i happen to believe that we are basically confused at the core because we have these awful powers that are represented by our patterns of thought.. the kinds of things that are discussed in this world in connecting to those who live in a paradigm of oppression... and this spiritual dullness that tends to give us this sense of claustrophobia to sensing and feeling as we face all of these different circumstances. Either we feel fear of that which captures our attention and we are drawn into ourselves for a time not being able to feel free to blossom in our environment... or we just do not know ourselves enough to express ourselves in true freedom at that moment. I think that this predicament is always faced with a temptation to have this tension of this world dominate us in this manner of this free flow of divine unction. How do we define what we are changing into unless we experience freely what we had already become? I think the the textual communication of the image of Christ must expose our own image problems.. i mean ... in this deep communication ... because we do not have a pure ability to see as Christ sees. We need Him to make all of these experiences yea and amen!! The truth is that i actually find this epistemology in writing as new in all of these different phrases because i believe that we can be drawn out of this world in prayer... i pray scripture ... but then there is this rich communication as a convergence of illumination by the Holy Spirit and a freedom of life being put on a page. I certainly enjoy this forum communication. Remove Reply Quote Notify

4085  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: December 04, 2009, 10:26:30 AM This is very simple i think... the bible talks about encouraging one another... but belief is the fundamental element as a means to connect. Belief is that reception of what we have received personally. But belief is defined by a Person... the point being that if we put this together then what we express to one another is something that was given us that we understand about who Christ is that we share with one another. The first order of creating this environment is to discuss what we believe about Christ. Getting someone to open up is asking them questions about what they believe... then from there their personal gifts will become evident. People are social beings by communication. And i would add that public prayer is also a dead give away to where they are at and what needs to be taught. Thats the problem... we do not answer questions but we only discuss personal issues. Reply Quote Notify

4086  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Iron Sharpens Iron on: December 04, 2009, 10:01:38 AM I agree there should be resistance in a relationship. But i do not think human resistance can make a difference. I think we get very confused when we are involved in a struggle that we face where the force of the resistance toward us is too strong for us.  But our major miss calculation is that we see these struggles as purely on a one dimensional paradigm. That is because we are naturally predisposed to think that if we gain a little ground in the tug of war that we have been able to get a little more progress in our connection to the other person. But i do not think the bible presents us as having this kind of power. There is something odd about a person who has this reality in his own mind that his goals will be met when he has done the work of changing his environment by producing some kind of human ability to work for his own freedom! Wow.. temptation to achievement is a power in itself. I mean granted we all have the clash of the wills but what kind of resistance does a person exercise over another persons will? If all of the bullies in this world could be dealt with on a human level then when would the bullying stop? We have a very warped view as humans of what the necessary elements are in dealing with resistance because we actually think that applying the rite kind of pressure will change our world. This is the 20th century... we have developed a safety net for the helpless. We have special programs for the disabled. We have programs in place that train people in accepting other cultures. We have an education program that produces people who are supposed to be very accepting of the other persons point of view. This all started in the 60s with the move to create social order that had escalated in the riots prior. But what do we have to show for all of this reprogramming? We have tried to reorder this world through teaching others to resist the urges of prejudice. What have we to show for it? The fact is that man has no real power to change the world! The truth is that the world is very simple. It is a world where the forces of evil stand against the forces of good. This is because these powers are both necessary. If there was no necessary evil then there would be no reason for evil to exist. Evil is necessary because evil is a force that is impossible to resist. All things are destined to die.. because all things are corrupted. We live in a world were what we do is necessary because we do it because we are intrinsically bent to do it. There is no such thing as a power that has no cause to exist. We go from the impossible to the possible. This translates into the human experience as facing all opposition to our good as facing forces that are impossible for us to overcome! Because an expression of a will is an expression of individual freedom. What is necessary to overcome evil? It definitely is not of this world! If God exist then good is necessary. If God does not exist then there would be nor resistance that is necessary. You cannot have a free will unless you are intrinsically bent on doing good. By intrinsically i mean having the nature as the cause of doing what we are free to do. Because we lay down our rites to face something that we feel has no end in sight for us to overcome we find that we are drawn into the reality that God is the cause of all things. We actually begin to understand that what ever we accomplish in this world... what ever impact we make in our world it is because God has graced us to see that He is the only Person who has the necessary power to change a thing. Reply Quote Notify

4087  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Freedom Of The Will Jonathan Edwards on: December 04, 2009, 07:25:42 AM By natural necessity, as applied to men, I mean such Necessity as men are under through the force of natural causes; as distinguished from what are called moral causes, such as habits and dispositions of the heart, and moral motives and inducements. Thus men, placed in certain circumstances, are the subjects of particular sensations by Necessity: they feel pain when their bodies are wounded; they see the objects presented before them in a clear light, when their eyes are opened: so they assent to the truth of certain propositions, as soon as the terms are understood; as that two and two make four, that black is not white, that two parallel lines can never cross one another; so by a natural Necessity men’s bodies move downwards, when there is nothing to support them. But here several things may be noted concerning these two kinds of Necessity. Reply Quote Notify

4088  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: St. Augustine on: December 04, 2009, 07:14:16 AM Chapter XVII Bear with me, my God, while I say somewhat of my wit, Thy gift, and on what dotages I wasted it. For a task was set me, troublesome enough to my soul, upon terms of praise or shame, and fear of stripes, to speak the words of Juno, as she raged and mourned that she could not “This Trojan prince from Latinum turn.” Which words I had heard that Juno never uttered; but we were forced to go astray in the footsteps of these poetic fictions, and to say in prose much what he expressed in verse. And his speaking was most applauded, in whom the passions of rage and grief were most preeminent, and clothed in the most fitting language, maintaining the dignity of the character. What is it to me, O my true life, my God, that my declamation was applauded above so many of my own age and class? is not all this smoke and wind? and was there nothing else whereon to exercise my wit and tongue? Thy praises, Lord, Thy praises might have stayed the yet tender shoot of my heart by the prop of Thy Scriptures; so had it not trailed away amid these empty trifles, a defiled prey for the fowls of the air. For in more ways than one do men sacrifice to the rebellious angels. Reply Quote Notify

4089  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Personality and the Procession of the Holy Spirit G. Smeation on: December 04, 2009, 07:01:39 AM Another consideration evincing the DIVINE HONOUR to be paid to Him is derived from the declaration that THE SIN AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST can never be forgiven. On the one hand, that could not be affirmed if He were not God; and, on the other hand, it by no means implies a superiority to the other Persons from whom He is sent. It is to be explained by the nature of the sin which rejects the testimony, or quenches the operations of the Spirit, by which alone men can be saved. The Holy Spirit is never represented as a worshipper, but always as the object of divine worship. 4. The CO-ORDINATE RANK in which the Spirit is placed with the Father and the Son, is brought out in not a few descriptive passages. We find the three Persons holding a co-ordinate rank when we look at Christ’s baptism (Matt. iii. 16), or at the Pentecostal effusion of the Spirit (Acts ii. 33), or at the Baptismal formula in the Christian Church, or at the fact which the Apostle Paul so emphatically adduces, that by Christ we have access in one Spirit to the Father (Eph. ii. 15). Without expounding all these passages, and others in this connection, let me adduce the apostolic benediction: "THE GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ, and THE LOVE OF GOD, AND THE COMMUNION [communication] OF THE HOLY GHOST be With you all" (2 Cor. xiii. 14); words containing an invocation to all the persons of the Godhead, and in point of import tantamount to saying: " O Lord Jesus Christ, let Thy grace; O Father, let Thy love; O Holy Ghost, let the communication of Thyself be with them all." Remove Reply Quote Notify

4090  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ... on: December 03, 2009, 04:26:31 PM Quote from: beacon2 on December 03, 2009, 03:50:32 PM Quote from: Joker on December 02, 2009, 08:55:27 AM Quote This is why Paul still speaks of having the ministry of reconciliation in 2 Cor 5:18-19, even though he also speaks of the reconciliation of all men in the past tense: 18   All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19   that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. (NIV) (NASB) Yes, that is the scripture I was thinking of.  But "reconciled" is in the Greek aorist tense (something that happens but without reference to "when") in verse 18.  You may have something there Joker.  But since the NIV,  which is the version I use most of the time, is the work of over a hundred scholars working directly from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts, I choose to trust their translation and abstain from trying to reinvent the wheel myself. Since Paul  in 2Cr 5:19 is writing  of a past event, a past event where Christ finished the work given to Him by the Father  --  dying for past sins, sins that were charged men under a past covenant-- the translators’ usage of the word as  "reconciled" is perfectly appropriate. Especially since the OT copy/type of the Cross shows that God had decreed men would be clean from sin before Him (and therefore reconciled) immediately after the process was completed. Lev 16 and Heb 9:19-28.  God would not have granted access to His heavenly throne to all, if Christ had not reconciled all men at the Cross.  Matt 27:51 Quote from: Joker on December 02, 2009, 08:55:27 AM In verse 19, the "was" (imperfect tense, normally indicating a continuous action but generally used as a past tense with the verb "to be" according to the note in Strongs) goes with "in Christ" in the Greek.  "Reconciling" is a present participle, as is "not counting", and is translated as such in KJV and NASB.  This is a distinction without a difference. Either way, the Father was in Christ at the Cross--a past event.   Therefore, the continuing action of reconciling happened at that time.  One cannot arbitrarily isolate the word “reconciling” from the rest of the sentence and the meaning Paul was trying to convey and give it a future application b2 My thinking on this is that we are not far apart on our theological views. I mean... you something like a double negative on these terms... ie law of non contradiction.  reconciliation or justification... if there is no cause for change there is no end for change... it means nothing as a term to the unsaved. Reply Quote Notify

4091  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Decompostion of the Secularist Voice. on: December 03, 2009, 03:37:40 PM One of the mind boggling predicaments we cannot overcome is this attraction we have to a purely secularist set of norms. We have this weightiness to all that comes up as a matter of the reality of our spiritual vitality that lives as a stream to create what we exhibit to those around us. I would call this design to this free flow the continuous maturing of the inner man. We are blinded in some ways.. only to be reminded by His revelation to us that we are something that we do not know we are at the time of our experiencing these different integrations of secularism. I really think we get extreme confused by our physical senses in this area. We really do not believe that knowledge.. a persons general disposition in community.. the kinds of things that become our central focus and an incomplete attention to the way of life as a way of worship that brings us to focus on these spiritual paradigms that are going to unbind the inner man so that the soul expresses itself as if was expanding to become all that is required for experience to meet meta physical reality of the new man!! This is why we are given to soo much frustration in this life. Because we really believe that a negative reaction that we experience is a general lack of understanding in creating a positive environment. But we are made to be human in a fallen world. What creates this threatening environment to our inward reality is what we determine is real as we read things through our physical senses. Oh my..determinism of man is so detrimental to spiritual growth!! We must begin to create the inward reality with a totally new way of communication.  Because of the fall we have created these connections in our way of communication that dull our souls so that we are always given to fighting against phantoms. We must dis integrate this world we live in.  We must begin to use the spiritual language as the tool for changing our whole spiritual communication whether it is what we say.. as a matter of getting to the spiritual desires that will expand the souls capabilities. I think we must get through all of these different avenues of thought that are natural to us in this manner of decomposition. But at some point our thoughts will bring about the reality of an inward confidence that determines our reaction and not the other way around. We are dealing with these different spiritual paradigms in this eternal language as a matter of growing in this vibrant way of living in community. Remove Reply Quote Notify

4092  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: December 03, 2009, 02:56:38 PM Actually that particular verse is as you say Eric ... its the experience determining the content and not the other way around. I ve always thought about this deep call as an eternal convergence of the troubles in this life and the overwhelming sense of Gods communicating skills to get to the bottom of what we do not understand that we need to be communicated about. I have always looked at a persons real desires as being always frustrated in this life... because every human being does not have this kind of sense of absolute ability to go through any situation and say... I know why i must endure this .. or i must nt ask for any more... He will kill me with His presence and His love. At the same time we are wiggling ... complaining... struggling... wishing... longing ... nite and day for the present suffering to turn for our good... i mean.. this is a natural desire for everyone who is living to want to live life to the fullest and as long as they possibly can... self preservation. Along with that self preservation desire is to see justice before our eyes as quickly as possible... not the kind that would bring harm to someone but the kind that would make the best possible outcome for all... i mean... i dont see a difference in wanting to move things along as quickly as possible in an angry way and wanting to see retribution. Its the same kind of sifting only that God knows best how to bring it along ... but we would be seeing the most unbelievable soft landing even if we were culpable. I mean what ever worry about a situation that seems like there is this train on the track and its heading a certain way... its going to hit the wall and we are in some way going to feel the impact... well deep calls to deep is the absolute control over all the elements in the future to bring the train to a stop ... fix the problem in a way we never thought and reward us for our endurance. What ever the intricate elements in the story are that could possibly in the end mix bad with good... is not His way!! All of this seeming contradiction to our present reality is too much for what we can live as an experience in the present!! Deep calls to deep... yes... but lets contemplate on this... yes.. we can come to a point where we live in the reality of His future deliverance ... now... its coming up....deep calls to deep...yes He is that eternal good and more now. We are quieted by His love. Deep calls to deep.. Your waves and breakers have swept over me... i am undone.  its like bursting into an eternal vortex of walking around in another kind of confidence.    Reply Quote Notify

4093  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: December 03, 2009, 01:39:23 PM I dont think its consistently beyond... the Revealed Jesus is the real Jesus. I dont know about you guys but i agree that what man has tried to describe in the past about him is only a mans teaching. Every man has an incomplete view of Him. But there are only a few places you can find Him. I mean if He has revealed Himself and His revelation of Himself is in the new life that comes down from heaven .. then the Word of God is the Spirit of Christ... i mean.. each word is the image of the Person. But you cant put the way we seek Him in a box and say thats not how He is going to reveal Himself. I am not talking about normal means... or He can reveal Himself anyway He wants ...He is still God....  I think thats what the frustration is about American Religion. Ok we cant do something in order for Him to come to us. He decides to reveal Himself to us because how do you search for something you cannot understand or see? And i am not talking about the physical eyes. I mean how do we touch, taste, feel, see Christ spiritually? Well ... if you asked me to describe a person that i knew very well.. i would describe that person as very social, not given to being angry... relatively good looking... and i know the scruples. Well i would not want to talk about Jesus as if i studied Him from a book. I mean if i can talk about my friend in personal terms and present Jesus to someone as a letter writer whos letters i occasionally read its obvious that i would know Him from a distance and i would know my friend up close. That is a topsy tervy world. Jesus is a friend who sticks closer than a brother. I sometimes hear Him speak louder than those who are in my company. I mean He is my confidence.. my joy... my guide.. my light.. my salvation... my forgiver... my fiend... if He sticks closer than a brother then whatever closer means thats Him!! So Jesus is my confidence. I do not need to act... that is really real. Oh and the last thing... Hes bigger than my sin...."You got to do this for me. Huge. Quickly. Bye"... as Tiger would say. I hope that puts a face on Hes closer than a brother. Reply Quote Notify

4094  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Decompostion of the Secularist Voice. on: December 03, 2009, 10:07:32 AM This is a very peculiar time in history. I do not think we have faced this kind of zeal in any other time. The apostle confronted the church at Colosse about the false teaching that the spirit was good and the body was bad. It resulted in a spiritual asceticism. But today because of the vast advances in medicine... the ability that we have to extend life and being able to dull the physiological pain of loss we are dealing with a kind of religion that the physical will produce the ability to heal the spiritual. In other words instead of the temple of prostitution we have the temple of the elimination of a problems. These new techniques ignore this vital focus on the meta physical aspects of the existence of all things. That is the reality of causes , means, and ends of the purpose of things and it focuses on the motor aspects of the continuum of societies. The end result is that every thing that is treated either pops up in another kind of behavior.. or those things that are treated are only temporary with a deeper problem... like treating a virus... the virus just takes on another form and becomes a super virus. Even if a person applied the general teaching of this physical focus that it is doing something in order to obtain wholeness or doing the next rite thing in order to see progress .. it would only correct a more proficient running society that would run to exhaustion. Proficiency in ones life could be a form of self mutilation. A much deeper application of this physical focus is that it is a form of determinism. You are determined to strive to do the rite thing and then to focus on that excellence no matter what. But life is much slower because people are spiritually susceptible to all kinds of invisible paradigms. Things under the surface are never in order and a present judgment on the state of a society in a purely one dimensional view will in the end create a socialistic society. When we take a survey it is only as true as it was measured in one particular paradigm of reality and it was not true 10 minutes ago because one event can change a survey and each person faces millions of events in one day. The point being that the general influence of the movement of all things in this universe are multi dimensional and the reason that events happen as they do are predominately resulting from those things we do not understand. This is why we have the scriptures because they act as the doctor of the invisible. These words that are physical words on a page are like the medicine in a bottle. Because we are dealing with conscious war of attrition on communications that come from sources that cannot be seen. Not only does the word of God speak from the physical page but the entire universe is speaking unto the glory of God. So that we are dealing with the influences of things that come from atoms that are held together by a force that we have never discovered with a survey or a micro scope. In a sense we are listening to communications that we cannot explain. Its kind of like before we discovered penicillin. I mean there were all kinds of theories as to why a person would get ill and then die. Because we did not have a view into the smaller organism and so the physical body seemed to us as a shell of something spiritual. This led to all kinds of mystical practices. But mysticism is inverted as the prodigal son story. I mean any kind of doctrine that takes the focus off of the doctrines of grace and salvation through Christ as the one message over all the other messages is bound to lead to a different kind of mystical design. So that the physical determinism of the 20 century is modern mysticism. We must not make man something that he is not... man is body and soul... body and spirit... we must deal with the spiritual first. This is why we must understand this art form of decomposition. Remove Reply Quote Notify

4095	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Decompostion of the Secularist Voice.	on: December 01, 2009, 05:03:57 PM
This whole problem in dealing with ourselves is a problem of believing something in relation to our knowing Christ that doesnt fit in this matter of experience. These things that we are taught are things that are very mysterious. They are also multifaceted as are Gods thoughts. The problems come because we do not focus on teaching ourselves in this personal application so that we know ourselves before others put us in some kind of mold. As i have stated before that we are all personally taken care of by our Father. And in being taken care of we must be reminded in this focus of who we are in His love. This is very complicated because even tho He loves people without feign .. yet not everyone is going to be loved at the same time in the same way. So that it is proper to step outside of our own experience...and put up a lite into our souls. Now then this is what i am talking about in this matter of facing a resistance to this kind of freedom. The soul is the center of the activity of all that we know about ourselves. Its what the bible terms the heart of the matter. Guard your heart for out of it are the wellspring of life. I touched on this that the inner man is that person who freely experiences this flow of divine favor... it is the sensing of grace that connects us to all that we do and say as a matter of flowing out into our world. It is the Spirit that baptizes us so that we are filled and out of being filled we experience life ... a secret life in the heart of man... and it flows out of us as that quality of life that the world is not familiar with. The bible encourages all of these public actions as a matter of finding that we are growing in our beliefs by applying this relational technique as one person exercises his gifts on another person. But this can be a very deceptive experience. I believe that the reformers were rite that we must know God in order for us to enjoy our God. But as Calvin has stated we dont stop there . We know God in order that we might take into consideration all that we are in our souls. We know an image and we become like that image.Thats why the apostle has so many encouragements to focus on Christ. But is that just sitting down and looking at the picture on the wall of an image of what was painted or is there this multi faceted searching that is going on both in terms of looking at ourselves and God searching us? I believe that unless we remove all of the obstacles ... that is, learn how to pray.. in terms of our being singular effect as being the only one in the universe that our Father is focused on ... as a matter of experience then we will always be subjected to fulfilling desires that in the end will not make us happy nor will they create this safe place. One of the ways that we obtain something we want is this matter of decomposition of what we have picked up from what we are deceived about. 4096  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Decompostion of the Secularist Voice. on: December 01, 2009, 10:41:25 AM It will explain in a more clear way who Christ is and then we can understand who we are by that. I dont believe that we can separate our identity from our understanding of Christ. He gifts us and thats how we know who we are. I dont believe that self denial is a matter of forgetting oneself.. or a scrupulous examination of our own sin... but its believing that He does for us what we desire because He caused us to desire it in the first place. This is critical in our understanding our true identity. On the other hand we are drawn out because of this focus on our desires both in terms of decomposition through separation between what we experience in terms of guilt anger shame and fear... not saying that we must depersonalize these paradigms ..that is make the spirit separate from the body .. i mean in terms of our true self image. We do not divide ourselves in teaching ourselves .. we release. We must roll them over to Him. But in rolling them over we experience this sifting of what is trusted in as a matter of the experience we have in our world and what others think they know about us. Christ is always available to us in pure freedom to receive our deep distress in this decomposition. We make something real by answering the deeper message in this process. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4097  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Decompostion of the Secularist Voice. on: December 01, 2009, 10:26:07 AM If you will just be patient i will explain... let me have some time... this is a very matter of fact process...l. But its like Buddhism in that its the reverse process with the understanding that we cannot separate our bodies from our spirits... (thats as far as i go in comparing)... the integration of something that is spoken to us has this idea of a spiritual paradigm. Is all i am saying is that we share in common with other people the potential to believe something not only that we understand with on an intellectual level but its this spiritual awareness of both body and soul that we begin to become like. I believe Hebs describes this. But i am applying the personal application from the Psalms. I hope to write this as something that has a spiritual effect. I mean on the level of my own experience with the other side of the Psalms. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4098  Forums / Theology Forum / The Decompostion of the Secularist Voice. on: December 01, 2009, 09:58:57 AM The process of decomposition is a process where we disintegrate what is told us to integrate. And it involves the idea of making it obnoxious either by its looks or its smell. We must divide out souls with the spiritual influence of all that people imagine themselves to be in a society and provide the freedom of true self reflection in this paradigm of decomposing the prison of these inner voices from guilt shame and fear unto a release of the inner man!!(I do not mean that it is in bondage... just a matter of experience.) This is done by training ourselves to apply the word of God in this art of disintegrating these spiritual paradigms.  As you know a work is something that is responsive to the deeper message.. not only in a society of people but from one generation to another. What makes leaders are men who will not accept the status quo. This is much bigger than we could imagine... i mean in terms of responding in a way that we do not move from our position... not a retreat in the least. But this is what we are required to do... Jesus says to resist the Devil and He will flee from you. Now when the world is turned upside down this is a very big responsibility. Dont get me wrong if we just accept that we are required to obey each mandate as a matter of submitting to authority then what if the authority is Satanic?... or it is part of the schemes of the Devil to cause us to fall... for we fight against the world the flesh and the devil. I do not think that our present generation understands this fight!! Not like the prior generations... we have a very big need for leaders who provide services that do not rule with conduct that is oppressive downward. If we were all just to fall in line under oppression then the oppression will only get worse.. .what makes a safe world and a world of freedom is when men make stands in positions of authority to protect those under them. In other words we are talking about obedience as a matter of placing ones job on the line... ones life on the line.. ones well being on the line as a matter of true authority!!! This world is filled with very small men!!! As you know there is always in any society a message that is the one that is usually avoided at all cost because it will bring a person into a situation where he feels there is going to be a big cost. But in prior generations this was a common way of leading!! How do we face a world that is so bent on destruction... threats... dominance over other men? Well the bible says we resist Satan by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. We could be the most polished people as far as morals was concerned and be the person who has no backbone!! Jesus demands on a person was obedience that was more than what a man looks like on the outside. Jesus required us to lay our lives down for one another!! But as i have been saying this kind of predicament is not going to be easy to get through. Because we have people who are very close to us who have followed the course of this world in such a way that they are professional religious people. We are not talking about having some kind of bone to pick with every one we are confronted with. But we are talking about being wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Leaving the judgment to God but not being deceived that judgment on a generation is not required!! As i have said that we are a very passive generation who would do anything someone said even if it was under this oppressive demand. Now then i will try to explain this process of standing firm. I have mention that we must decompose all that we trust in no matter how many men begin to oppose us. A really good leader has a multitude of opposition. I will think about this because i am experiencing this kind of fire rite now and i will not allow this fight to affect my spiritual growth. We must not take into our souls something that will be of a deep hurt and harm to our well being!! Reply Quote Notify 4099  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: November 30, 2009, 08:28:02 PM I dont know if its better to be needed or loved unconditionally.  Its like being outside of all that is beautiful... kind of like in a vortex of self... and then we enter into God.... but in entering we become like we were not when we were outside of Him. I guess what i am thinking is that all that we do and think ... all that we experience has its beginning and ending in God. God is so good that we could not fathom what we need unless we see Him as He is... or face to face. I dont know if we could have any tension in that connection. Because need means that there is something that is required in order to fulfill. But to me being in God is being ravished with something that is completely free of all ties. Maybe its because we fail to see that the desires we have will only be fulfilled in God. I mean... we are always facing our own distrust of our own desires. I dont know if we can find enough hope if we are not caused by Him to follow our desires above what we think we can do and see in the end. In other words when we come to Him .. there is this simple answer to our wants. So simple and yet that which connects us to all that we receive that is good is from a God who knows the beginning from the end and requires us to be loved because He has loved us to hope enough to find what we desire!! I guess that its when we are a little taken back of being treated in a different way from all those around us who need something in order for us to express love that we think this is real freedom in the connection. But God does not look at us as we think we are or as we are but He looks at us as a reflection of all that we know is free in giving us what we want without any return. If we had the faith of a mustered seed we could move mountains. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4100  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: November 30, 2009, 02:19:37 PM The context in the Proverbs is that if we seek wisdom ... we search for it as silver and gold that we will find it. What is wisdom? Wisdom is that which is taught to us from our birth. It really is the passing down of the ways of God to the child. Wisdom is not a therapeutic transference in a human relationship. Its really one person who is an authority figure... mostly the father or if the father is a fool then its the spiritual leaders of Gods church. Its thinking Gods thoughts after Him. When a person is taught to think with a world view that is Christ centered then all of his words are choice words... or words that fit the situation that he is confronted with. So that the intake of Gods word will produce a tongue that speaks in each situation with an application to all that God has said in teaching us wisdom through His words. The words of wisdom are healing and they are choice words at the rite time. Sometimes we are to rebuke a fool with our words. Sometimes we are to share something that will bring healing to a person. Sometimes we must keep our mouths shut. The point being that if we think Gods thoughts after Him then all of our words will be choice words. They will be rite words. I think our tongue can lead us into many sins. We can literally sink someones ship by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. I think the idea of being able to discern between the rite thing to say and the wrong thing is to be able to learn to enjoy God by searching after wisdom. Real happiness comes from Gods word. I really believe that the Proverbs are encouraging us to seek wisdom from his word but not only to just seek it but to dig for it and not only to dig for it but to find all of our happiness in it. I do not believe it is just a matter of having a mind full of Gods truths but its the relationship we have with wisdom that produces this understanding of the purposes of God in this life and when we understand Gods purposes then we will enjoy this relationship with all that He says. So that in digging for wisdom we are actually finding the greatest pleasure that we can find on this earth. And the Proverbs is describing all of this pleasure that one experiences as the heart of his being able to be an encourager as a predominate trait of knowing God. I do not think it is saying that these proverbs if learned and followed will bring life... i think he is saying that if we search for wisdom then we will find pleasure and it will be an overflow our of our mouths and our actions toward others. We are not talking about a man that is deciding life and by his understanding of these different societies along with his self control in all areas he is applying wisdom and so that is the man of Proverbs. But its a man who is able to judge ritely in every situation. It is a man who lives above these other philosophical principles. The point being that a man who has learned wisdom through much searching will bring life to those who are in need by the words he speaks. And a man can bring much damage to a person on the other hand by the foolishness that comes from his mouth. But this control is buttressed by his deep understanding of the ways of God because He has searched for wisdom from his childhood. For yrs i had memorized this book and meditated on it. I found that the book was encouraging generosity over scrupulousness... the experience of joy as if wisdom was the most cherish relationship one could have on this earth rather than a set of morals... and that these proverbs were a small collection compared to all the proverbs that were spoken by Solomon and others. What people do not understand about this book ...unless you do the searching it does no good to use the book as a moral manual ... because the application is different for the same looking situations. Thats the reason the first ten chapters are written...  To really simplify this it is speaking doctrine to one another and giving insight into that doctrine to us in application.  And on the other hand it is experiencing the effects of this spiritual reality as tho it was as natural to find our pleasure in Him as if there was no one on earth that understood.        Reply Quote Notify 4101  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The truth about Proverbs 18:21 on: November 30, 2009, 01:33:35 PM The context in the Proverbs is that if we seek wisdom ... we search for it as silver and gold that we will find it. What is wisdom? Wisdom is that which is taught to us from our birth. It really is the passing down of the ways of God to the child. Wisdom is not a therapeutic transference in a human relationship. Its really one person who is an authority figure... mostly the father or if the father is a fool then its the spiritual leaders of Gods church. Its thinking Gods thoughts after Him. When a person is taught to think with a world view that is Christ centered then all of his words are choice words... or words that fit the situation that he is confronted with. So that the intake of Gods word will produce a tongue that speaks in each situation with an application to all that God has said in teaching us wisdom through His words. The words of wisdom are healing and they are choice words at the rite time. Sometimes we are to rebuke a fool with our words. Sometimes we are to share something that will bring healing to a person. Sometimes we must keep our mouths shut. The point being that if we think Gods thoughts after Him then all of our words will be choice words. They will be rite words. I think our tongue can lead us into many sins. We can literally sink someones ship by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. I think the idea of being able to discern between the rite thing to say and the wrong thing is to be able to learn to enjoy God by searching after wisdom. Real happiness comes from Gods word. I really believe that the Proverbs are encouraging us to seek wisdom from his word but not only to just seek it but to dig for it and not only to dig for it but to find all of our happiness in it. I do not believe it is just a matter of having a mind full of Gods truths but its the relationship we have with wisdom that produces this understanding of the purposes of God in this life and when we understand Gods purposes then we will enjoy this relationship with all that He says. So that in digging for wisdom we are actually finding the greatest pleasure that we can find on this earth. And the Proverbs is describing all of this pleasure that one experiences as the heart of his being able to be an encourager as a predominate trait of knowing God. I do not think it is saying that these proverbs if learned and followed will bring life... i think he is saying that if we search for wisdom then we will find pleasure and it will be an overflow our of our mouths and our actions toward others. We are not talking about a man that is deciding life and by his understanding of these different societies along with his self control in all areas he is applying wisdom and so that is the man of Proverbs. But its a man who is able to judge ritely in every situation. It is a man who lives above these other philosophical principles. The point being that a man who has learned wisdom through much searching will bring life to those who are in need by the words he speaks. And a man can bring much damage to a person on the other hand by the foolishness that comes from his mouth. But this control is buttressed by his deep understanding of the ways of God because He has searched for wisdom from his childhood. For yrs i had memorized this book and meditated on it. I found that the book was encouraging generosity over scrupulousness... the experience of joy as if wisdom was the most cherish relationship one could have on this earth rather than a set of morals... and that these proverbs were a small collection compared to all the proverbs that were spoken by Solomon and others. What people do not understand about this book ...unless you do the searching it does no good to use the book as a moral manual ... because the application is different for the same looking situations. Thats the reason the first ten chapters are written...  To really simplify this it is speaking doctrine to one another and giving insight into that doctrine to us in application.  And on the other hand it is experiencing the effects of this spiritual reality as tho it was as natural to find our pleasure in Him as if there was no one on earth that understood.        Reply Quote Notify 4102  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: November 29, 2009, 09:27:04 PM Ive been thinking about this concept of the difference in how truth has this communication to our understanding. Whether is His communication in this illuminated fashion or its a particular message out of the whole of the communication yet i believe there are layers of truth within the understanding of His message to us. I mean everything that we have as an experience whether it is something that we hear from Him in that direct voice or its something that we have in our communication with our circumstances.. not only in terms of voices but in what we experience as we feel the effects of what is transpiring around us .. it all has an eternal purpose to make us more like Christ. And yet what He is designing does not always come to us in this manner of finding that all things are purposed to be fulfilled for our good. This to me is purely a matter of either not having the full knowledge of that image transference or its trying to figure out more than we are required to. In a sense we rest in Him from whatever we do not have the power to understand or the power to overcome in feeling as if these effects are tempting us to withdraw from being one with His purposes for us. Maybe its because we do not see the narrow effects of this channel of  God presence immunation... i mean there is only one path in all movements of His design... and we are as it were flaming the desire.. the highest experience of what is worthy of our dwelling on in resting in Him. This searching is Him searching our hearts and our searching His word to us. He has designed us to find Him ..... in this matter of finding what we need in that particular time even tho there may be a greater transparency in His communication to us. This is what is in the layers of that single voice. I think the desire to find Him draws us out of what we can depend upon in a purely intellectual understanding so that we go from one moment to another in sensing a new flow of HIs divine illumination to our single path. We look back at the word that was spoken to us in the old illumination and that same word in our present experience has been brighten so that we are seeing a multitude of colors that were hidden in the old communication to us of the same words. I really believe that this is an experience of His word coming alive in us... speak Lord Jesus or we will die! Remove Reply Quote Notify 4103  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: This Kind.... on: November 29, 2009, 12:19:33 PM i agree that we are to be people who have a single vision for people rather than just to disagree about some particular point that each one of us is making. I dont know if this is very easy tho... i mean... to communicate on that level in a convincing way unless our level of example is more profound in the focus. I agree that we need to rid our minds of everything that does not produce that effect toward one another. I believe that our minds can be so full of the wrong things ... i dont mean necessary as a matter to disagree about but in being able to achieve that focus as a real experience!! I try to look at this life as us being susceptible to being spiritually sick because there are certain toxins we must deal with in avoiding that kind of lethargic discernment about a situation and about our place as to what we are there for. So i practice this decomposition of all that i trust in as a matter of what i know. Most of life is becoming a fire on the inside so that it flows out of us like a torch and warms other people. I do not think we can create this atmosphere unless we have made a point to rid ourselves of the toxins of wrong application. We want to find a focus in this life that is far beyond this world. All of us look, touch, taste, feel the effects of the winter wind that blows. We know the kind of feelings we are going to experience ... those feelings of refreshment.. that enlightened sense of power... and finding that we can relax under the cool streams of its blowing over us. Well i think the spiritual life is the same way. Its a life where we create an atmosphere knowing that we are not disembodied spirits but we are flesh and spirit. I think the biggest argument to others that we are confused about who we are is to create this kind of self that does not exist in the real world. How do we understand this excretion process in order to know that we are experiencing something as being human and not creating a dichotomy in our spiritual awareness? Its something that we as intensely orthodox people need to contemplate. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4104  Forums / Main Forum / Re: crazy chick advice? on: November 26, 2009, 11:54:07 AM Quote from: JimR on November 26, 2009, 11:09:28 AM Quote:  "Even is she is submissive and must feel a bit under his thumb ... i am sure she can handle that... it happens 24 hrs a day with the rest of mankind." Because a slave can get used to being a slave, that does not validate slavery. Because a woman can get used to being in a one-sided, one way, master/servant "relationship", this does not validate one-sided, one way, master/servant "relationships." Sorry, MBG, but like I said to Tuggs -- The majority of guys I had in those group meetings had the exact same attitude and said the exact same things that Carolina is posting here.  And it's both ungodly and abusive. Jim Well Jimbo he who is a slave to his own passion is a slave keeper. I find the commands are equal when it comes to christian expectations. Lets get the focus on the majors not just the i am the great counselor who is Gods gift to key life. Let your speech be always season with salt. I really dont know how you can expect to fulfill your sweet language to your wife if you cant do it in the rest of the day. If i remember correctly there is a problem with the two mouths in one person. I don t think i have called you a name.  Reply Quote Notify 4105  Forums / Main Forum / Re: crazy chick advice? on: November 26, 2009, 10:35:40 AM Quote from: The Changeling on November 26, 2009, 10:30:08 AM Read my post in this kind... think about this in terms of personal expectations. Reply Quote Notify 4106  Forums / Main Forum / Re: crazy chick advice? on: November 26, 2009, 10:20:44 AM Quote from: The Changeling on November 26, 2009, 09:51:58 AM Quote from: mybigGod on November 26, 2009, 08:32:30 AM I think everyone should be encouraged to be married...the only stipulation of a sure success if they are both saved. Oh really, then I suppose all the christian marriages that ended in divorce can be attributed to the espousal that none of them were truly saved? Correction, your espousal. No really ... the problem is that there is this straw man... the extra design that feeds expectations. The bible kills expectations for the purpose of introducing personal encounters as the motif in salvation. This is the fuel for demanding attention to oaths.    Reply Quote Notify 4107  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: This Kind.... on: November 26, 2009, 10:09:15 AM Heres the problem with accusing me of not accepting the premise of free will. First of all.. i do not believe that there is anything in this world that can change a mans will.Thats how much i believe in the power of the will. A man always does exactly what he wants at all times. Even if you are given to the idea that a mans learning will change the quality of a relationship with another man it still doesnt change the fact that a man is free to reject this attempt to divert his freedom for exactly what he wants to do even if he decides to change his mind about being able to compromise in his prohibitions. Why is it that people who believe in free will try to force their will on others in feeling that they are able to know the other person will be more willing to do what they want? Is is possible to believe that if you are doing something that you want to do.. that it will never change to doing something that someone else wants you to do? I mean if you are free to do exactly what you want to do then the universe is only free when you know that will never change!! Every day to the end of eternity that will always be the culture that this world will participate in no matter what someone says... does... determines it is different for everyone. A destination is exactly what a man desires in his choices. He chooses what he wants until he breaths his last breath. If a man is unsaved he chooses exactly what he wants no matter how much he lives in deception that he is good!! Every day that man will chose to oppose what he does not want!!No matter if the whole world voted to oppose the man... he still would vote against the majority because he wants something that he is free to chose.  I dont care if society seems to be a culture where everyone does things because everyone else is doing them. The point is that everyone does exactly what they want to do because everyone is bent on opposing at the same time. Please.. dont console yourself about another person because of some kind of joint effort to work together. The universe is only as real as you can see that men will change because everyone is doing it or that presenting a man with a goal will make him change... that my friend is just deceiving yourselves. Men always do exactly what they desire. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4108  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: How can this happen? on: November 26, 2009, 09:40:39 AM Quote from: Joker on November 26, 2009, 09:36:23 AM Quote from: Callisti on November 25, 2009, 10:23:18 AM For someone who says, "How can a "good" God let evil happen? If so, God is all-powerful but not all-good. Or, He's all-good but not all-powerful, therefore, He can't stop evil in the world." Paraphrasing what Gregg Laurie said in his message, "How To Answer Difficult Questions": "Who made you the moral center of this universe? Who are you to say what is "good" and what is "bad"? God is good because He says He's good..." What are your responses to this? Oh, Callisti, would you really use Laurie's "Shut up and don't ask questions; don't even think!" argument?  "Then Job replied: 'How I have heard many things like these; miserable comforters are you all!'"  (Job 16:1,2; See Job's response in 26:1-3 for something a little more sarcastic.) A polite response might be, "Oh, so you think God is good just because he says so?  If Satan said he was good, would you believe him?  Show me deeds, not words!"  If you're interested in the subject, I recommend C.S. Lewis's The Problem of Pain.  The only problem with this argument is that you are saying the the guy who got thrown into jail for being an example was punished by those who were unjust and so looking at your point of view it makes it seem there there is no good that comes because there is no one who is overseeing the reward and punishment. Thats why the bible doesnt start with the actions of man... you cant prove God exist by those saints unless you really drink the kool ade of bios. Reply Quote Notify 4109  Forums / Main Forum / Re: crazy chick advice? on: November 26, 2009, 08:32:30 AM I think Carolina brings up some good points. The undercurrent in my opinion is that Carolina hates religious imperialism. God has a woman for Carolina that will stand on his side against personal insults and extreme innuendos. Even is she is submissive and must feel a bit under his thumb ... i am sure she can handle that... it happens 24 hrs a day with the rest of mankind. I kinda enjoy this hateful thread. Ruff ruff. I think everyone should be encouraged to be married...the only stipulation of a sure success if they are both saved. THats it... i certainly would not want to be the one who has my own religious inhibitions... might as well take up the whips http://www.murphywhips.com/... it may work for some seriously square people... hehe. I encourage every one just on that basis... if you want extra ideas just watch the day time soaps... more interesting than counseling. The only other alternative is karma. Reply Quote Notify 4110  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free writing on: November 25, 2009, 04:05:25 PM An event in the future is going to happen out of necessity. All things are already seen as being completed. The only real knowledge is a knowledge that is necessary. All things are necessary whether they are known or not in a finite sense. But all things are potentially determined to be necessary as a matter of faith as tho the present knowledge of the future event is necessary. If we had the faith of a mustered seed we could move mountains. That is our potential to treat necessary things beyond our ability to know the details of those events are a necessary assurance that we have affected those future events. So that an assurance of something future molds us to the necessity that all things are purposed to occur as a necessary experience that they will. There is a necessary timeless quality in our present experience. Other wise we could not enjoy the pleasure as a present experience. We are to enjoy God.