Mark 4:35-41 It is interesting that
this story follows the parables that are mainly focused on His word and
His rule by His word... on the one hand he tells the disciples to be
careful how you hear the word... and on the other hand He teaches that
His word cannot be thwarted by anything or anybody because it is going
to bring in the end of the age and bring in the kingdom of God in the
new heaven and earth. God doesnt need any help. And then you have this
story. I think after Jesus teaches then He is going to test their
faith.... it usually works like this as to how Jesus method of teaching
is meant to bring us along to exercise our faith. The primary way of how
we are taught by Jesus is through trials. Since we are no longer aliens
and separated from the promises of God... but we are in this new
relationship with our Father through the Son by the Spirit then these
trials are not meant to force us to do an end with our sins, but we are
brought along from one new strength to another through the trials. This
is the way of our faith being strengthened by our Father coming to our
aid in our temptation. Here is all Jesus needs to do is speak the
word and the storm ceases. What is interesting is that the disciples
were led into the boat by Jesus because He had just taught them how His
word could not be thwarted. I think that the since Jesus was God and He
displayed His authority over the storm ... that Jesus brought this storm
for the purpose of testing them. This is mainly why we have this
story written down for our edification and encouragement. Here you have
these terrible circumstances and there is no way that you can resist
the power to over come them... and then it seems that God has gone
somewhere and He is not listening to you. Now Jesus was sleeping as a
man... but as God He was always in control. If we never had God in the
flesh then we would never know if there was any way that we could
identify with someone who was genuinely concerned for us being that He
actually went through the same circumstances that we did but He was able
to not fall into temptation so that He was not fully faithful to our
Father. If we just had the God of the OT then we would only hope that He
has a purpose in trials but we would never actually have someone who we
could point to in history and know that He went through the trials and
that He understands exactly what we are going through. Let me
just apply this a little further... i think that our normal way of
dealing with the circumstances of this life is to focus on them as if
they actually had power over our well being more than the power of Gods
immediate presence to protect us from them... i think this is our
problem as to why were are so easily upset and anxious. And it is not
something that we experience in the way we think and how we look at
these circumstances that would be uncommon with any of us as we feel
like we are rite in the middle of something that we have a hard time
controlling. As believers it really is a matter of getting side tracked
or straying away from this source of finding a certain detachment to
these terrible circumstances as having a real familiar understanding of
the power that we have that dwells within us. In this way sin has been
taken care of.. but there are all these potentials to fall into a snare
by having more of a familiarity with the results of sin....such as shame
, guilt and a general coldness to all of the praiseworthy paradigms
that we have been baptized into in our identity with our Savior. We get
side tracked. Now this word that Jesus speaks was always
determined to be written down in this particular text ... being planned
from eternity past. Because every word that is spoken and written down
is God breathed. Each word is Trinitarian. So that in this way Jesus is
the eternal Son of God. What i am saying is that our faith was implanted
in us by the implantation of the seed of the word of God. We actually
have the spiritually new nature that is the communication as a source of
power and authority that works in us as His working in us by His Spirit
and His word. So that our faith is looking for Him to speak that word
and all is well. Because we are not just dealing with a Savior but we
are intimately acquainted with a Shepherd over our souls whos healing
balm is that word of salvation that goes out in our circumstances that
speaks deliverance to us... or its the communication that we are
promised as that by which we are comforted by His Spirit... the
christian life is not a worship of a letter but we are a spiritual house
being built up as a temple in which God dwells. So i would say that
since the disciples are asking Jesus to calm the seas ... and that it is
a word that will bring this about... then we have this promise that if
we ask anything in His name He will do it. Why would we have that
confidence if we were disheartened because God seems silent to us?
Because we already have that implanted word in us... and we know that it
is that by which we become familiar with this resurrection power...
hoping in His word is looking unto Him alone for our deliverance and
then we grow to be filled with the power of God ... this the apostle
prayed that we might understand the power that dwells within us. " Oh
Jesus speak the word and all will be well"!!!.... is our plea and our
hope.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...
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on: September 30, 2009, 11:56:31 AM
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Beacon...
I
had an interesting conversation with my 17 year old last night over
dinner. He had been reading some of the prophets and he asked me:" Dad,
what did it mean when Isaiah said that he had a coal from the altar
touched to his lips? What is going on with that??"
I told him: "Two things.
First,
the realization that Isaiah had (woe is me, I am undone!). He
understood, there in the presence of a Holy and Righteous God, the stark
contrast between his singularly sinful nature, and the purity of God.
He understood that even he, being considered a man of God had no leg, no
defense, no works on which he could stand to claim he had a right to be
in God's presence. That son IS salvation.
Second, God Himself
was the originator and finisher of Isaiah's cleansing. It was at God's
direction that the Seraphim flew to him and sanctified him. This, again,
is a picture of salvation. Were there anything that we could do to make
ourselves worthy before him, then we would also have to answer for
everything we had ever done, and be toast."
Now this I think is
the MAJOR thing that people miss about salvation. It is all God's doing,
all of it. Men's sins are forgiven BEFORE they accept Christ, the just
have to answer the invitation to eat at the King's table!! That doesn't
happen until we have that Isaiah moment. Watch this closely...
2 Corinthians 5: 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Catch
that? It is a subtle twist on the typical way of looking at this
passage, but Paul writes God reconciled US (the subject of the verb) to
HIMSELF. Not the other way around. God was, in Christ assuaging all of
our shame and gult so we could draw close to obtain mercy and find help
as the author of Hebrews writes. The cross was as much, if not more
about taking away our shame so we no longer had to worry about being
naked before Him. Just like the angel flying to cleanse Isaiah, and the
angels cleaning up Jacob and giving Him clean clothe's in Ezekiel's
vision. Gos is always the one to say "Come, I am within your grasp."
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
MEN'S
sins. Not men who had gone to the altar, or said the incantation, or
tithed regularly, or were regular attendees of the local baptist church.
MEN! ALL MEN ARE NOW FREE TO RECEIVE THIS LAVISH GIFT JUST FOR THE
ASKING!!
Revelation 21:5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink WITHOUT COST from the spring of the water of life.
Revelation 22:17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his
appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to
God.
Our appeal is not to be made to convince people how sinful
they are, we need to convince them that God is waiting for them to come,
and drink, at no cost, free of charge, from the only fountain that
cleanses...
This is a beautiful, biblical, and therefore a most edifying post Eric.  I hope everyone reading this thread takes time to meditate on and internalize what you have written here.
For
many years I've waited to hear the Love of God preached like this to
congregations-- especially so those in attendance that are lost get a
true glimpse of His Love, but so far I've never heard it.
Oh,
those giving the message might use some of the same scriptures you've
quoted, but their true meaning has remained veiled to them.
I especially enjoyed the insight the Lord has given you on the following verse:
2 Corinthians 5: 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.
I've quoted this myself before but have never elaborated on it as you have. I thoroughly agree with what you see there Eric.
I wish I had more time to highlight some of the Spirit revealed truths I see in your post. But I'm short of time right now.
You are a blessing Eric!
b2
Will read and try to answer the other posts later today.
I
think you guys are painting a picture that is not correct... if God
justifies the whole world and takes care of their sin... then what is
left for them to do? Ok.. you are saying that heaven and hell are
determined upon their choice!!! In other words they are not under any
condemning power of the law except the law of this personal choice!!!
Choose to take this and you will live... choose to ignore it and you
will burn in hell. If this is what you are saying then what is the
difference with their relationship to all of the law of God if its still
their choice that determines justice? You are teaching the same works
righteousness. We are saying something that is all inclusive in the
whole human race by teaching there their is no other reason for a man to
face justice than that he is under the condemnation of sin by a
judicial declaration of God and we are all in the same position because
we have no hope of finding peace with God by any other means...
including our choice ...except the by the means of the mercy and grace
of God. We are saying that if the cause of salvation is from any thing
outside of God that it is equal with the paradigm of law keeping. We are
teaching that since man is unable to come to God because the law is put
in that position of being equal with mans lack of being able to choose
that the law is represented in the true reality as exclusively being the
real condemning power. We are dealing with how we view ourselves in
light of who we are in this world and who we are in light of this
covenant community by believing that we are not a law unto ourselves as
the definition of the condemning power of the law... do you see what i
am saying?
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why should I be sorry for my sin? What does it do to God?
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on: September 30, 2009, 11:29:49 AM
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Rufus, It
goes to show you that God can use anyone. Apollos got saved and
preached Christ but had to be further instructed in the right way. Many
Reformed people actual trusted in Christ first for salvation and give
very little notice to the faulty doctrine of a zero faith salvation.
Most likely because so much rhetoric covers it up. How can you
or those preachers possibly say most of the Jesus people fell away? Many
if not most of my old friends still follow Jesus. i think it just a
matter of Reform people dis-ing the competition. As far as
election goes, Israel is God's Elect, the Chosen people, stretching down
though history to our very time. They were never un-chosen. Same Greek
word for Chosen (elect) is the same in the Septuagint as the New
Testament. Yet we know that some went after other idols and perished
because they no longer followed Yahweh or had faith in him. As long as A
Jew believed and trusted "in God" they were among the righteous and God
unfolded His plan for them and they were secure as the elect. The
same word "election" means the same in the NT. God has a plan for his
Chosen people. Gentiles can know and live this plan if they trust in
Christ and are so grafted into Israel. God had decided in times past
what this plan would be for those who believed in Jesus....a
predestined, plan if you will. If you are "in Christ' then God has a
plan for your life but you can't know that plan until you believe and
personally accept Him. In this way anyone who believes and personally
accepts Christ can be saved. This is truly a great News an a wonderful
plan for all peoples; but those who reject Christ do so at the risk of
judgment, which they would deserve because of their own choice and not
as a result of being forced upon them without any chance for salvation! Doesn't this sound just and fair for everyone? Thor This
is like saying that the physical creation was not caused to come into
being but it is sustained by a cause. Or there is this tree but it did
not have a personal connection to the will of a being... but it got
there by a mystery... but it is living because God chose it to flourish,
gave it a purpose and numbered its days. Uh... big bang salvation?
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...
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on: September 30, 2009, 11:06:44 AM
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For
anyone who is still interested in having a meaningful discussion
though, I’ll get back to the subject of this thread by posing some
questions.
The prevailing “orthodox” gospel says that a person’s sins are forgiven when he comes to belief in Christ.
If this were true, what sins are we talking about here?
What covenant would a person have broken to have been charged with sins?
For one thing, the Sinai covenant has been obsolete for a couple of thousand years.
Not to mention the fact that God made that covenant with the Israelite nation only.
The gentiles did not have the law then (Rom 2:14); much less now when that covenant is not even in effect for the Jews.
So
think on this. Since Adam and Eve left the garden, there has been no
law covenant for gentiles to break, and there never will be one. The
2d/new covenant requires belief only.
Now Paul states in Rom 4:15 that “where there is no law there is no transgression“ and in Rom 5:13
“that before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” (NIV)
So then, what sins were all men (including Jews) in need of forgiveness for when Christ came?
b2
The one sentence about a Law-covenant
there has been no law covenant for gentiles to break,
God's
teachings or Torah and any legal binding agreement (Covenant) God makes
with a man or men are not necessarily the same thing. Case in point
the Noach convent where God promises not to destroy the earth again by
water. There are not any moral, or any other "laws" attached as
conditions. Commandments can stand alone, apart from any convent.
Covenants are conditional or unconditional agreements between God and
man. Commandments, at least the moral ones, stand for all men. Whereas
the Sinai covenant has been obsolete, it's components or contents are
not obsolete but in fact included in the New Covenant, underlining the
aspect of an agreement and it's contents are two separate things.
Commandments can always exist without any covenant made with people.
It's always wrong to kill, steal or commit adultery in most ancient
cultures. The Sinai covenant was an agreement connecting Israel's faith
and obedience with living in the land of Canaan. The gentiles knew it
was wrong to murder, steal, lie, covet and commit adultery and they had
laws to prove it...example.: Hammurabi's code. Gentiles didn't
have to break a Covenant (agreement with God) to sin. They only had to
break a comparable commandment of God...which they did and knew was
wrong. For that they were guilty. They did not know about YHWH or Jesus
so they could not be judge specifically for that. But
'Covenant” (legal agreement) does not necessary equal “Law or Torah”.
Torah or the Word always existed before creation...before any covenant
was made with man. Torah becomes part of the Sinai covenant
agreement....it also became part of the New covenant...Jeremiah 31: 31
& Ezekiel 36:26. After faith in and repentance for sin, Jesus
forgives ours sins and we then become grafted into Israel (through
faith in the Messiah) and thereby have access to the New Covenant
promises which God has made (only) with Israel. I see no reason
to invent a covenant theology to explain things, if you can see that
legal agreements and Torah (Law) are two separate things joined as part
of a deal at Sinai but Torah also existing apart as a moral standard for
all. Thor
This
is a very confusing post... we have the law of God given at mount
Sinai, and then we have the covenant of grace given to Abraham prior to
the giving of the Law. So on the one hand we have law and works and on
the other hand we have the covenant of grace and faith. These two do not
mix. The covenant stipulations were that the law had to be kept
completely... God did not offer any other remedy in the giving of the
Law.. .when the law speaks it condemns. The law brought death, the only
spiritually good thing about the law is that it shows us the reality of
the spiritual reality of this life of sin and some of the causes of
corruption that exist in people and things in this world. Other wise we
would all be lost in this mystical understanding of this paradigm of the
spell of negativity. Then we would have no hope in the laws work to
bring about Gods promise that the wicked shall not stand on the day of
judgment and we would forever be bullied on this earth with no hope of
retribution. Israels hope was not only tied to the covenant as a promise
but it was tied to having a protection from the seed of the pagan
nations. If I forget you "O Jerusalem may my rite hand forget its
skill". Why ? because Christ rule on this earth in the OT was through
the Nation of Israel. Christ was to be worshiped not as the law giver...
but as the Savior and protector of the nation of Israel from going into
captivity as being unable to worship God as a covenant people. This
is why the law could not save the nation of Israel. They were covenant
breakers because they failed to keep the law at mount Sinai. But not all
of Israel is the true Israel. This is why we have the covenant of
grace. There was a remnant within the nation of Israel that were
protected by God because they were only recognized by God to be a
covenant keeping community because they were under the covenant of
grace. A law breaker who has received the grace of God is judicially
innocent of all of the charges of his personal sins and his national
sins. God no longer holds his sin against him.The remnant man no longer
stands in an innocent position because of his own reputation...its
because of Christ name. This relationship is secure because there is no
way that the promise given to Abraham in the covenant of grace could be
overturned ... thwarted.... or miss represented... because Gods people
were determined to succeed in the midst of a wayward nation... a foreign
enemy and being oppressed in a financial way ... only by and though the
secret providence of God over all the world. This is why Gods people
could go into exile and flourish under extremely dangerous conditions.
And this is why they returned to Israel after a time of judging the
nation to worship God in all of His rule as He displayed it in how He
brought them back from captivity by destroying all of their enemies.
This is the eternal justice of God.
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4290
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Please share this with your own pastor.
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on: September 27, 2009, 08:35:37 PM
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??
I
haven't talked "harshly" at all. If anything, my o.p. tells a story
about a congregation that heard a humble, penitent believer ask for
forgiveness and help, and responded with a lot of grace and support. If
that's "harsh" in your eyes.......No it really isn't, and you can stop
with the inclusive "all" in your posting. The truth is, NOT "all" have been "harsh." Most of the posts have been made by people who would have responded in the same gracious way.
I
couldn't care less if you do to me or not, but you certainly owe CW and
Gouda an apology for calling their comments "harsh." They most
certainly WERE NOT.
I like how you are
willing to speak for everyone else. The "all" was specified as all those
who are participating in harsh judgments. Now i know why getting up in
public and confessing your sins is so important to you... but let me set
the record straight God is fond of us because we acknowledge that we
could not confess all of our sins. Shoot... most of the ones He is
concerned about are hidden to us.
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