Mark 4:35-41 It is interesting that
this story follows the parables that are mainly focused on His word and
His rule by His word... on the one hand he tells the disciples to be
careful how you hear the word... and on the other hand He teaches that
His word cannot be thwarted by anything or anybody because it is going
to bring in the end of the age and bring in the kingdom of God in the
new heaven and earth. God doesnt need any help. And then you have this
story. I think after Jesus teaches then He is going to test their
faith.... it usually works like this as to how Jesus method of teaching
is meant to bring us along to exercise our faith. The primary way of how
we are taught by Jesus is through trials. Since we are no longer aliens
and separated from the promises of God... but we are in this new
relationship with our Father through the Son by the Spirit then these
trials are not meant to force us to do an end with our sins, but we are
brought along from one new strength to another through the trials. This
is the way of our faith being strengthened by our Father coming to our
aid in our temptation. Here is all Jesus needs to do is speak the
word and the storm ceases. What is interesting is that the disciples
were led into the boat by Jesus because He had just taught them how His
word could not be thwarted. I think that the since Jesus was God and He
displayed His authority over the storm ... that Jesus brought this storm
for the purpose of testing them. This is mainly why we have this
story written down for our edification and encouragement. Here you have
these terrible circumstances and there is no way that you can resist
the power to over come them... and then it seems that God has gone
somewhere and He is not listening to you. Now Jesus was sleeping as a
man... but as God He was always in control. If we never had God in the
flesh then we would never know if there was any way that we could
identify with someone who was genuinely concerned for us being that He
actually went through the same circumstances that we did but He was able
to not fall into temptation so that He was not fully faithful to our
Father. If we just had the God of the OT then we would only hope that He
has a purpose in trials but we would never actually have someone who we
could point to in history and know that He went through the trials and
that He understands exactly what we are going through. Let me
just apply this a little further... i think that our normal way of
dealing with the circumstances of this life is to focus on them as if
they actually had power over our well being more than the power of Gods
immediate presence to protect us from them... i think this is our
problem as to why were are so easily upset and anxious. And it is not
something that we experience in the way we think and how we look at
these circumstances that would be uncommon with any of us as we feel
like we are rite in the middle of something that we have a hard time
controlling. As believers it really is a matter of getting side tracked
or straying away from this source of finding a certain detachment to
these terrible circumstances as having a real familiar understanding of
the power that we have that dwells within us. In this way sin has been
taken care of.. but there are all these potentials to fall into a snare
by having more of a familiarity with the results of sin....such as shame
, guilt and a general coldness to all of the praiseworthy paradigms
that we have been baptized into in our identity with our Savior. We get
side tracked. Now this word that Jesus speaks was always
determined to be written down in this particular text ... being planned
from eternity past. Because every word that is spoken and written down
is God breathed. Each word is Trinitarian. So that in this way Jesus is
the eternal Son of God. What i am saying is that our faith was implanted
in us by the implantation of the seed of the word of God. We actually
have the spiritually new nature that is the communication as a source of
power and authority that works in us as His working in us by His Spirit
and His word. So that our faith is looking for Him to speak that word
and all is well. Because we are not just dealing with a Savior but we
are intimately acquainted with a Shepherd over our souls whos healing
balm is that word of salvation that goes out in our circumstances that
speaks deliverance to us... or its the communication that we are
promised as that by which we are comforted by His Spirit... the
christian life is not a worship of a letter but we are a spiritual house
being built up as a temple in which God dwells. So i would say that
since the disciples are asking Jesus to calm the seas ... and that it is
a word that will bring this about... then we have this promise that if
we ask anything in His name He will do it. Why would we have that
confidence if we were disheartened because God seems silent to us?
Because we already have that implanted word in us... and we know that it
is that by which we become familiar with this resurrection power...
hoping in His word is looking unto Him alone for our deliverance and
then we grow to be filled with the power of God ... this the apostle
prayed that we might understand the power that dwells within us. " Oh
Jesus speak the word and all will be well"!!!.... is our plea and our
hope.
|
4282
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...
|
on: September 30, 2009, 11:56:31 AM
|
Beacon...
I
had an interesting conversation with my 17 year old last night over
dinner. He had been reading some of the prophets and he asked me:" Dad,
what did it mean when Isaiah said that he had a coal from the altar
touched to his lips? What is going on with that??"
I told him: "Two things.
First,
the realization that Isaiah had (woe is me, I am undone!). He
understood, there in the presence of a Holy and Righteous God, the stark
contrast between his singularly sinful nature, and the purity of God.
He understood that even he, being considered a man of God had no leg, no
defense, no works on which he could stand to claim he had a right to be
in God's presence. That son IS salvation.
Second, God Himself
was the originator and finisher of Isaiah's cleansing. It was at God's
direction that the Seraphim flew to him and sanctified him. This, again,
is a picture of salvation. Were there anything that we could do to make
ourselves worthy before him, then we would also have to answer for
everything we had ever done, and be toast."
Now this I think is
the MAJOR thing that people miss about salvation. It is all God's doing,
all of it. Men's sins are forgiven BEFORE they accept Christ, the just
have to answer the invitation to eat at the King's table!! That doesn't
happen until we have that Isaiah moment. Watch this closely...
2 Corinthians 5: 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
Catch
that? It is a subtle twist on the typical way of looking at this
passage, but Paul writes God reconciled US (the subject of the verb) to
HIMSELF. Not the other way around. God was, in Christ assuaging all of
our shame and gult so we could draw close to obtain mercy and find help
as the author of Hebrews writes. The cross was as much, if not more
about taking away our shame so we no longer had to worry about being
naked before Him. Just like the angel flying to cleanse Isaiah, and the
angels cleaning up Jacob and giving Him clean clothe's in Ezekiel's
vision. Gos is always the one to say "Come, I am within your grasp."
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
MEN'S
sins. Not men who had gone to the altar, or said the incantation, or
tithed regularly, or were regular attendees of the local baptist church.
MEN! ALL MEN ARE NOW FREE TO RECEIVE THIS LAVISH GIFT JUST FOR THE
ASKING!!
Revelation 21:5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink WITHOUT COST from the spring of the water of life.
Revelation 22:17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his
appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to
God.
Our appeal is not to be made to convince people how sinful
they are, we need to convince them that God is waiting for them to come,
and drink, at no cost, free of charge, from the only fountain that
cleanses...
This is a beautiful, biblical, and therefore a most edifying post Eric.  I hope everyone reading this thread takes time to meditate on and internalize what you have written here.
For
many years I've waited to hear the Love of God preached like this to
congregations-- especially so those in attendance that are lost get a
true glimpse of His Love, but so far I've never heard it.
Oh,
those giving the message might use some of the same scriptures you've
quoted, but their true meaning has remained veiled to them.
I especially enjoyed the insight the Lord has given you on the following verse:
2 Corinthians 5: 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view.
I've quoted this myself before but have never elaborated on it as you have. I thoroughly agree with what you see there Eric.
I wish I had more time to highlight some of the Spirit revealed truths I see in your post. But I'm short of time right now.
You are a blessing Eric!
b2
Will read and try to answer the other posts later today.
I
think you guys are painting a picture that is not correct... if God
justifies the whole world and takes care of their sin... then what is
left for them to do? Ok.. you are saying that heaven and hell are
determined upon their choice!!! In other words they are not under any
condemning power of the law except the law of this personal choice!!!
Choose to take this and you will live... choose to ignore it and you
will burn in hell. If this is what you are saying then what is the
difference with their relationship to all of the law of God if its still
their choice that determines justice? You are teaching the same works
righteousness. We are saying something that is all inclusive in the
whole human race by teaching there their is no other reason for a man to
face justice than that he is under the condemnation of sin by a
judicial declaration of God and we are all in the same position because
we have no hope of finding peace with God by any other means...
including our choice ...except the by the means of the mercy and grace
of God. We are saying that if the cause of salvation is from any thing
outside of God that it is equal with the paradigm of law keeping. We are
teaching that since man is unable to come to God because the law is put
in that position of being equal with mans lack of being able to choose
that the law is represented in the true reality as exclusively being the
real condemning power. We are dealing with how we view ourselves in
light of who we are in this world and who we are in light of this
covenant community by believing that we are not a law unto ourselves as
the definition of the condemning power of the law... do you see what i
am saying?
|
 Reply
 Quote
 Notify
|
|
|
4284
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why should I be sorry for my sin? What does it do to God?
|
on: September 30, 2009, 11:29:49 AM
|
Rufus, It
goes to show you that God can use anyone. Apollos got saved and
preached Christ but had to be further instructed in the right way. Many
Reformed people actual trusted in Christ first for salvation and give
very little notice to the faulty doctrine of a zero faith salvation.
Most likely because so much rhetoric covers it up. How can you
or those preachers possibly say most of the Jesus people fell away? Many
if not most of my old friends still follow Jesus. i think it just a
matter of Reform people dis-ing the competition. As far as
election goes, Israel is God's Elect, the Chosen people, stretching down
though history to our very time. They were never un-chosen. Same Greek
word for Chosen (elect) is the same in the Septuagint as the New
Testament. Yet we know that some went after other idols and perished
because they no longer followed Yahweh or had faith in him. As long as A
Jew believed and trusted "in God" they were among the righteous and God
unfolded His plan for them and they were secure as the elect. The
same word "election" means the same in the NT. God has a plan for his
Chosen people. Gentiles can know and live this plan if they trust in
Christ and are so grafted into Israel. God had decided in times past
what this plan would be for those who believed in Jesus....a
predestined, plan if you will. If you are "in Christ' then God has a
plan for your life but you can't know that plan until you believe and
personally accept Him. In this way anyone who believes and personally
accepts Christ can be saved. This is truly a great News an a wonderful
plan for all peoples; but those who reject Christ do so at the risk of
judgment, which they would deserve because of their own choice and not
as a result of being forced upon them without any chance for salvation! Doesn't this sound just and fair for everyone? Thor This
is like saying that the physical creation was not caused to come into
being but it is sustained by a cause. Or there is this tree but it did
not have a personal connection to the will of a being... but it got
there by a mystery... but it is living because God chose it to flourish,
gave it a purpose and numbered its days. Uh... big bang salvation?
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
4286
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...
|
on: September 30, 2009, 11:06:44 AM
|
For
anyone who is still interested in having a meaningful discussion
though, I’ll get back to the subject of this thread by posing some
questions.
The prevailing “orthodox” gospel says that a person’s sins are forgiven when he comes to belief in Christ.
If this were true, what sins are we talking about here?
What covenant would a person have broken to have been charged with sins?
For one thing, the Sinai covenant has been obsolete for a couple of thousand years.
Not to mention the fact that God made that covenant with the Israelite nation only.
The gentiles did not have the law then (Rom 2:14); much less now when that covenant is not even in effect for the Jews.
So
think on this. Since Adam and Eve left the garden, there has been no
law covenant for gentiles to break, and there never will be one. The
2d/new covenant requires belief only.
Now Paul states in Rom 4:15 that “where there is no law there is no transgression“ and in Rom 5:13
“that before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” (NIV)
So then, what sins were all men (including Jews) in need of forgiveness for when Christ came?
b2
The one sentence about a Law-covenant
there has been no law covenant for gentiles to break,
God's
teachings or Torah and any legal binding agreement (Covenant) God makes
with a man or men are not necessarily the same thing. Case in point
the Noach convent where God promises not to destroy the earth again by
water. There are not any moral, or any other "laws" attached as
conditions. Commandments can stand alone, apart from any convent.
Covenants are conditional or unconditional agreements between God and
man. Commandments, at least the moral ones, stand for all men. Whereas
the Sinai covenant has been obsolete, it's components or contents are
not obsolete but in fact included in the New Covenant, underlining the
aspect of an agreement and it's contents are two separate things.
Commandments can always exist without any covenant made with people.
It's always wrong to kill, steal or commit adultery in most ancient
cultures. The Sinai covenant was an agreement connecting Israel's faith
and obedience with living in the land of Canaan. The gentiles knew it
was wrong to murder, steal, lie, covet and commit adultery and they had
laws to prove it...example.: Hammurabi's code. Gentiles didn't
have to break a Covenant (agreement with God) to sin. They only had to
break a comparable commandment of God...which they did and knew was
wrong. For that they were guilty. They did not know about YHWH or Jesus
so they could not be judge specifically for that. But
'Covenant” (legal agreement) does not necessary equal “Law or Torah”.
Torah or the Word always existed before creation...before any covenant
was made with man. Torah becomes part of the Sinai covenant
agreement....it also became part of the New covenant...Jeremiah 31: 31
& Ezekiel 36:26. After faith in and repentance for sin, Jesus
forgives ours sins and we then become grafted into Israel (through
faith in the Messiah) and thereby have access to the New Covenant
promises which God has made (only) with Israel. I see no reason
to invent a covenant theology to explain things, if you can see that
legal agreements and Torah (Law) are two separate things joined as part
of a deal at Sinai but Torah also existing apart as a moral standard for
all. Thor
This
is a very confusing post... we have the law of God given at mount
Sinai, and then we have the covenant of grace given to Abraham prior to
the giving of the Law. So on the one hand we have law and works and on
the other hand we have the covenant of grace and faith. These two do not
mix. The covenant stipulations were that the law had to be kept
completely... God did not offer any other remedy in the giving of the
Law.. .when the law speaks it condemns. The law brought death, the only
spiritually good thing about the law is that it shows us the reality of
the spiritual reality of this life of sin and some of the causes of
corruption that exist in people and things in this world. Other wise we
would all be lost in this mystical understanding of this paradigm of the
spell of negativity. Then we would have no hope in the laws work to
bring about Gods promise that the wicked shall not stand on the day of
judgment and we would forever be bullied on this earth with no hope of
retribution. Israels hope was not only tied to the covenant as a promise
but it was tied to having a protection from the seed of the pagan
nations. If I forget you "O Jerusalem may my rite hand forget its
skill". Why ? because Christ rule on this earth in the OT was through
the Nation of Israel. Christ was to be worshiped not as the law giver...
but as the Savior and protector of the nation of Israel from going into
captivity as being unable to worship God as a covenant people. This
is why the law could not save the nation of Israel. They were covenant
breakers because they failed to keep the law at mount Sinai. But not all
of Israel is the true Israel. This is why we have the covenant of
grace. There was a remnant within the nation of Israel that were
protected by God because they were only recognized by God to be a
covenant keeping community because they were under the covenant of
grace. A law breaker who has received the grace of God is judicially
innocent of all of the charges of his personal sins and his national
sins. God no longer holds his sin against him.The remnant man no longer
stands in an innocent position because of his own reputation...its
because of Christ name. This relationship is secure because there is no
way that the promise given to Abraham in the covenant of grace could be
overturned ... thwarted.... or miss represented... because Gods people
were determined to succeed in the midst of a wayward nation... a foreign
enemy and being oppressed in a financial way ... only by and though the
secret providence of God over all the world. This is why Gods people
could go into exile and flourish under extremely dangerous conditions.
And this is why they returned to Israel after a time of judging the
nation to worship God in all of His rule as He displayed it in how He
brought them back from captivity by destroying all of their enemies.
This is the eternal justice of God.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
4290
|
Forums / Main Forum / Re: Please share this with your own pastor.
|
on: September 27, 2009, 08:35:37 PM
|
??
I
haven't talked "harshly" at all. If anything, my o.p. tells a story
about a congregation that heard a humble, penitent believer ask for
forgiveness and help, and responded with a lot of grace and support. If
that's "harsh" in your eyes.......No it really isn't, and you can stop
with the inclusive "all" in your posting. The truth is, NOT "all" have been "harsh." Most of the posts have been made by people who would have responded in the same gracious way.
I
couldn't care less if you do to me or not, but you certainly owe CW and
Gouda an apology for calling their comments "harsh." They most
certainly WERE NOT.
I like how you are
willing to speak for everyone else. The "all" was specified as all those
who are participating in harsh judgments. Now i know why getting up in
public and confessing your sins is so important to you... but let me set
the record straight God is fond of us because we acknowledge that we
could not confess all of our sins. Shoot... most of the ones He is
concerned about are hidden to us.
|
4293
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...
|
on: September 25, 2009, 12:53:41 PM
|
Bill...
If
a man or woman goes to hell, they will go their with their sins paid
for. They will go to hell, not because of their sin, but rather because
they have rejected the very one who paid for their sin.
Bill
think about this also... if God died for all the sins of all the
world... then if those people are going to hell because of their
unbelief... why did not He die for unbelief? It would seem to me that
since unbelief is the reason for all the other sins than it would be
taken care of. It is for those who believe. This is why i believe in
limited atonement...i mean in the negative since... and particular
redemption in the positive sense... Two line double predestination. Hi MBG, I
know you directed your question at Bill, and I'm not answering for him
here, but the answer to your question about Christ "why did Christ not
die for unbelief" is simply this. Unbelief is the requirement under a different covenant: the 2d/new one. God,
after tying the loose ends on the 1st cov through Christ, chose to
give all men an opportunity to become His children (through the new
birth of the Spirit) through a new covenant, one of grace rather than
law, that only requires belief on the Son. If Christ had paid
for unbelief also, a new covenant and proclaiming the gospel would have
been redundant since all men would have been saved at the Cross then. Also
God would have had to birth all mankind of His Spirit immediately after
Christ's resurrection for the scriptures say that "flesh and blood"
will never enter the kingdom. That would have been the end of the age at that time. b2
Thanks
B2..... But heres my problem with your reasoning of the two covenants.
First since you are saying that man was not offered the opportunity to
be completely forgiven and justified in Christ until the new covenant,
then why did the apostle take so many ot characters as examples of
saving faith if that faith was fundamentally different from the New
Covenant faith? If the apostle is drawing a parallel as the author of
hebrews does... and not only having all of the same qualities of New
Covenant faith... but there is no hint that the old covenant faith was
not saving . In fact when the author of heb. comes to chapt ten... he
brings in new covenant believers and old covenant believers as
qualifying what the one faith is. Your arguments do not line up with
scripture when you argue for fundamental changes in salvation from the
old covenant to the new covenant. There is only one faith and the
apostle uses the old testament saints under the old covenant to prove
this.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
4294
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...
|
on: September 25, 2009, 12:16:49 PM
|
Bill...
If
a man or woman goes to hell, they will go their with their sins paid
for. They will go to hell, not because of their sin, but rather because
they have rejected the very one who paid for their sin.
Bill
think about this also... if God died for all the sins of all the
world... then if those people are going to hell because of their
unbelief... why did not He die for unbelief? It would seem to me that
since unbelief is the reason for all the other sins than it would be
taken care of. It is for those who believe. This is why i believe in
limited atonement...i mean in the negative since... and particular
redemption in the positive sense... Two line double predestination. If
sin was just a list then there would be no reason why we chose to sin.
But we sin because we are sinners. When Adam sinned he as acting as the
federal head of the human race. His sin led to God imputing sin to the
accounts of the rest of his descendants. Sin is not just an action but
its a state of corruption and death. Man died a spiritual death... and
the process of death to his physical parts. So that man is entirely
corrupted. If sin were not described in the bible as a spiritual
paradigm then man would only think of sin in terms of the evolutionary
process of the survival of the fittest.... or as an animal instinct. But
since we know that sin is the back drop of what once was the most
glorious created beings of all of Gods creation , and in this light we
are exposed to all of the reality as we understand in this idea of the
nature of man, the nature of sin, the nature of God, and the nature of
Gods created order. This is why that in order for us to understand how
we function before a holy God we must understand that sin is a spiritual
problem that colors all of the causes of the troubles that are not only
seen in the actions but has a conscious influence in its degenerating
qualities and its choking grip of mans faculties as to how they function
in this corruption in comparison to his enjoyment of total freedom in
the garden.
|
4302
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Mercy and Grace (not my former co-workers)
|
on: September 23, 2009, 11:37:18 AM
|
WOW Poppy chill. Mercy
not give the punishment that a person deserves. Grace giving the
person what he/she does not deserve. Your example is correct, however
you miss 2 key points of grace or manifestations of Grace #1 Repentance is a gift from God (Acts 11:18; 2 Ti 2:25; Acts 5:31; etc,) So it qualifies as grace. #2 Sanctification is also a work of God in us (Phil 1:6; Rom 6:22; 1 CO 1:30 etc) So it also qualifies as grace See
grace is a complete package, God's grace in Paul gave him unrestricted
acces to God's Children as an apostle! after the guy was killing
christians, but since grace is a complete package he was repentant and
sactified in christ so God was sure He would not murder his children
again, but bless them. That is the grace of God! Now from a
human perspective. . . Be led by the Holy Spirit only He can tell you
if someone is a new creation or not. Only He can tell you when to
exercise mercy and when exercise justice. . . It might not be that
extreeme of a case it might be a lazy worker, that sometimes God will
tell you to fire him for his own Good so he would change his ways, so
you might think it heartless to fire a guy in this economy but God has a
plan. . . who knows maybe keeping the pedophile in prison will be
God's way of bringing him to repentance, etc. . . The jey is not to
hold biterness but do God's will, Loving your enemy might include
defeating him, for his own good . . . i mean isn't that the purpose of
church discipline? 1 Co 5:5 so be led by the spirit. But now you know grace and mercy a little better
You may need to read this a few times... let it sink in. Rufus...
one of the problems we have ... i am not being dogmatic here in my
application of the above statement but just giving you something to
think about. I find this kind of application in our present state of
things in this religious zeal to stand as if we were representatives of a
balance view of just consequences. One of the mis representations that a
person has in his natural way of thinking is this blurry understanding
of the nature of this idea of the kingdom of God... that secret and
absolute providence of God that has brought men to live in a world where
all realities are in opposition to one another... they are represented
in all of the colors of the potential of having unity among men in this
eternal social structure. Because the order of the world as it is from
the fall is through and by a real sovereign King who rules by no
opposition. All men stand as if they were flirting with to opposite
world views in one person. This is what determines our view of
reasonableness and consequence. All of this duplicity is formed out of
the cause of our view of God and our subsequent understanding of
ourselves in light of who we are in this world of sinners!! Now my
theory on this is that we have a terrible time with how we view the
world and relationships because we deal with the devil in a personal
way... i mean... we do not wrestle with flesh and blood.. that secular
blindness is the predominate focus in the ideas of how men design their
particular philosophy of their social order. I think this is coddled in
the causes and origins of mans predisposition to a dominant behavior
which i believe is that incessant satisfaction of finding our comfort in
being little god makers. If the world was blurred into a potential of
goodness of having peace among men in the order of a moral unity then
there would only be consequence in and through the system of man... that
being the checks and balances of reward and punishment. But this world
is in direct opposition to being ruled by one King. This idea of grace
as the bridge to unity in society is saturated with the moral order of
one god maker to another. The idea of having opposite world views is
opposed by all men. There fore God must be in absolute control of
all things from beginning to end so that whatever men design in this
world will in the end be worked together to be ordered by God for His
purposes or this world would disintegrate into utter chaos in a mili
second. There fore we say that God knows not only the order to be
corrupted but He sees beyond the social order and judges the thoughts
and the intents of mens hearts. He does not blur the idea of
reasonableness and consequence but He judges all men to be under the
absolute judgment of His rule! So that whatever transpires in this world
... is represented by the great gulf between the undeserved and the
just consequence to the rest. God as king reminds the world of moral
consequence that His rule will stand by representation and not personal
vengeance. So that men now are opposed to one another as God is free to
judge the world as the absolute ruler of all kingdoms. If we fail to
work out our own view of God as we feel and sense how we struggle with
sin and consequence then we will find that we are double minded in our
zeal. All saints are the glorious ones by declaration and not personal
consequence. He who opposes a friend of God opposes God Himself. That is
the reality of just consequence. The other views are being double
minded.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
4303
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: All men cleansed from sin on the Cross ...
|
on: September 23, 2009, 10:54:30 AM
|
Tom,
Take a look at the following:
II
Peter 2:1 [But there were also false prophets among the people, even as
there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in
destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.]
This
passage seems to be pretty clear in saying that Christ died even for
those who would deny Him, i.e. the false teachers. Certainly he died for
those who were His, as the passage you shared confirmed.
Back
to the passage on reconciliation. Could it be that through the death and
ressurection of Christ, that God is satisfied with the payment that
Christ has made, and that He is now ready to save all who will come to
Him by faith. As the passage states, it now remains with us to "... be
reconciled to God". This is accomplished by us ceasing from our own
efforts to please God, and instead resting/trusting in the finished work
of Christ for us.
You know there is another way to look at the
Calvinist doctrine of irresistable grace as well. Suppose God knows (and
certainly He does for otherwise He would cease to be God) the response
that every person will make to the gospel before they are ever born. In
that case it may very well be that the Spirit, although bringing a
general sense of conviction to all men, will deal in a saving fashion
with those He has foreknown would receive Christ. This concepts
dovetails nicely into the following:
I Peter 1:2 [Elect accoring to the foreknowledge of God the Father..]
and also
Romans
8:29 [For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the
image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.]
Now I am not claiming to have all the answers, just posing a different explaination that seems to be consistent with scripture.
Bill
Thanks
Bill... i really would like to go into the grammar at this point ...
maybe i will have some time today... my computer is down rite now so i
am having problems getting to my pages. But here are some questions. Where in other parts of scripture does it say that God reconciled the world in support of this context? Reconciliation
is not counting mens sins against them. How can God judge and punish
the world if they no longer can be blamed for their sins? And if they
are reconciled and in Christ then their rejection of Christ means
nothing in the judgment. Not counting mens sins.. is probably a present
tense verb... its the same tense as men are held captive to sin. If
the Apostle is using the personal pronouns us, we ,to address the
teaching of reconciliation, as directing it to the saints who are in
Corinth and consequently to all of the churches throughout Asia and to
the ends of the earth, then how can you include them... the world... as
inside the reconciled to be Ambassadors to the outside? Who are we
bringing reconciliation to if there are no unreconciled men? The
reconciled are those who have the righteousness of Christ imputed to
their account and have their sins imputed on Christ. If the world has
been reconciled then Christ has done all He can at the cross and if He
is not able to save men unless men choose to be reconciled then His
death on the cross and subsequent potential imputation of righteousness
becomes a wish and not a promise! If all of Gods work on the cross is
just a wish... dependent upon our wills... then Gods purposes in Christ
are not absolute and safe for those who actually stand "in Christ". If
reconciliation is old things are passed away... then how can the world
claim that they are reconciled?.. how can anyone know if they who are
outside of Christ have the bridge to being in Christ consequent upon
their wills if they stand in a position of being at enmity to God? Then
the idea of reconciliation is nothing but a potential ... it does not
translate into absolute assurance for those who are in Christ... whom
the apostle is primarily addressing in these verses. In other words the
apostle is teaching that reconciliation for the "us" is fail safe
because those who are in Christ can be assured that those who are
outside of Christ are not reconciled. There fore the reality of
reconciliation for the "us" is the purpose of the apostles directive
here and it is the basis for our assurance. The teaching of
reconciliation by the distinction of the apostle from the unreconciled
makes the ministry of reconciliation a transaction and not a wish. It brings about a real assurance to the "we". Where does it say that they are potentially reconciled upon acceptance of Christ?
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
4304
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
|
on: September 22, 2009, 05:09:12 PM
|
|
I think far too often we think of the
christian life in terms of being isolated and under some kind of a
personal test. But we are a community of believers who are taught by the
Spirit to be identified with one another as the means to be the
protectors and healers in and by the means the Spirit uses and His
direction in taking us to that new place of growth. In some ways this
communication is the road to seeing all of life as a worship of God that
moves us to be more saintly than we would be motivated to be if we were
alone. We are vessels of the Spirit who moves upon us, breathing new
life into us , so that we can bring this spiritual evidence that He who
is invisible is actively working as the united motivator for us to grow
together in one Spirit. I think that we cannot force this kind of
spiritual activity that creates the unity, but we know that God is the
Spirit and when God is among us there is that secret providence in this
connection that we cannot produce in making all things rite in the
freedom that is expressed as if we are the producers by what we say and
do in community. Unity is mainly a united understanding in this level of
how we have been affected in the movement of the Holy Spirit. We are
looking at producing one man, one being , as a community of revival.
I
talk about this kind of community paradigm because of this vision of
this pre design of God to unite the people as He has designed it to be
in His perfect timing and not by what we do to work toward that unity.
This organism called the church has the secret ordination of all the pre
knowledge from one generation to another that was brought into time
before we even were born in our time of being one. If we can keep our
focus on God then we will find that all these things that transpire in
this world are for His glory and for our good. Gods disposition is
expressed as that preparation to display His love, kindness, long
suffering, eternal wisdom and knowledge through His church and we are of
a new order that is beyond our being able to prepare ourselves to be
able to experience this disposition of the secret power that works
beyond our understanding to know the length and the height of what it
will produce in and through us as it is worked out in this time. Gods
preparation is through prior generations and this time is for future
generations. What God does is get the praise from people who have not
yet been born through those who He has prepared who are born!! This is
why it is beyond our ability to create this unity but we are bringing a
gift to one another as being united to one another.
|
|
Reply
Quote
Notify
|
|
|
4305
|
Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Mercy and Grace (not my former co-workers)
|
on: September 22, 2009, 05:01:43 PM
|
|
I think far too often we think of the
christian life in terms of being isolated and under some kind of a
personal test. But we are a community of believers who are taught by the
Spirit to be identified with one another as the means to be the
protectors and healers in and by the means the Spirit uses and His
direction in taking us to that new place of growth. In some ways this
communication is the road to seeing all of life as a worship of God that
moves us to be more saintly than we would be motivated to be if we were
alone. We are vessels of the Spirit who moves upon us, breathing new
life into us , so that we can bring this spiritual evidence that He who
is invisible is actively working as the united motivator for us to grow
together in one Spirit. I think that we cannot force this kind of
spiritual activity that creates the unity, but we know that God is the
Spirit and when God is among us there is that secret providence in this
connection that we cannot produce in making all things rite in the
freedom that is expressed as if we are the producers by what we say and
do in community. Unity is mainly a united understanding in this level of
how we have been affected in the movement of the Holy Spirit. We are
looking at producing one man, one being , as a community of revival.
I
talk about this kind of community paradigm because of this vision of
this pre design of God to unite the people as He has designed it to be
in His perfect timing and not by what we do to work toward that unity.
This organism called the church has the secret ordination of all the pre
knowledge from one generation to another that was brought into time
before we even were born in our time of being one. If we can keep our
focus on God then we will find that all these things that transpire in
this world are for His glory and for our good. Gods disposition is
expressed as that preparation to display His love, kindness, long
suffering, eternal wisdom and knowledge through His church and we are of
a new order that is beyond our being able to prepare ourselves to be
able to experience this disposition of the secret power that works
beyond our understanding to know the length and the height of what it
will produce in and through us as it is worked out in this time. Gods
preparation is through prior generations and this time is for future
generations. What God does is get the praise from people who have not
yet been born through those who He has prepared who are born!! This is
why it is beyond our ability to create this unity but we are bringing a
gift to one another as being united to one another.
|
|
|
|
Remove
No comments:
Post a Comment