4486	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Was Christ "fully" human?	on: August 07, 2009, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: beacon2 on August 07, 2009, 11:56:22 AM Quote from: Retrobyter on August 05, 2009, 07:30:30 PM Shalom, beacon2. Whom did Christ die for on the Cross? Contrary to what the Calvinists teach, the Messiah died for all human beings. If He did NOT die for all, then how can He judge those who reject His substitutiary death as their Sacrifice for sin? Did He die for all or just the elect? His substitutiary death was for all; the PAYMENT FOR SIN accomplished by His death was only applied to the elect. What sins did He pay for? He died for them all. Did He pay for them in full? Yes, His death was sufficient to pay for all of them in full, hence His cry from the cross, “Tetelestai!” “It is finished!” “It is paid in full!” It’s the word that was stamped on a bill once the buyer finished his payments. or do we still owe something to God in order to be forgiven?  As in confession, repentance, etc. No, there is nothing that we must add, nor is there anything we COULD add to the finished work of Yeshua` the Messiah. “Confession” is simply agreeing with God that we are indeed sinners and that our actions are sins. “Repentance” is simply changing our minds about our needs. It’s doing a 180-degree-turn and coming to an end of ourselves. In the Messiah’s love, Roy Hi Roy, I thought I'd address the other answers you had on your post of Aug 5th .... hope you don't mind that I copied the part of your answer that was most direct in answering the questions I posed. We pretty much see the same things in the scriptures judging by the  answers you gave to some of the questions,  except on your statement that I highlighted in red.  Your position that  Christ's death was only applied to the elect is the Reformed stance, and it is a teaching that is not supported by scripture. If you believe that Christ died for all men and there is nothing that men have to add to pay for their sin, how can it be then that the Father did not honor Christ's full payment and instead only applied part of it to some--the elect?  Where does it say that?? b2 How can God curse someone who has been justified? If God cannot support His threat by the actual reality of personal sin , then there is no reason to believe that Gods law applies in all of life.
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4487  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Hebrews: John Owen on: August 07, 2009, 11:48:39 AM  The third also, about that consternation of spirit which befell other prophets, is groundless. Sometimes it was so with them, as the instance of Daniel proves, chapter 7:28, 10:8; and so it befell Moses himself, Hebrews 12:21; which if we attain to that place, we shall prove the Jews themselves to acknowledge. Ordinarily it was otherwise, as with him so with them, as is manifest in the whole story of the prophets. There is the same mistake in the last difference assigned. Moses did not so receive the Spirit of prophecy as that he could, at his own pleasure, reveal those things which were not discoverable but by that Spirit, or speak out the mind of God infallibly in any thing for the use of the church, without actual inspiration as to that particular; which is evident from the mistake that he was under as to the manner of his government, which he rectified by the advice of Jethro, Exodus 18:19. And likewise in other instances did he wait for particular answers from God, Numbers 15:34. To have a comprehension at once of the whole will of God concerning the obedience and salvation of the church, was a privilege reserved for Him who in all things was to have the pre-eminence. And it seems that Maimonides himself in his exaltation of Moses excepted the Messiah; for whereas in the Hebrew and Latin copies of More Nebuch., part. 2 cap. 45, there are these words, larçy y[xy tgrdm ˆk µg wzw , which Buxtorf renders, “Est gradus hic etiam praestantissimorum consiliariorum Israelis,” “This is the degree” (in prophecy) “of the counsellors of Israel;” the Arabic or original hath, “And this also is the degree of the Messiah of Israel, who goeth before” (or “excelleth”) “all others;” that is, in point of prophecy. Not to follow them in their imaginations, the just privileges of Moses above all other prophets lay in these three things: — (1.) That he was the lawgiver or mediator by whom God gave that law and revealed that worship in the observation whereof the very being of the Judaical church did consist. (2.) That God in the revelation made unto him dealt in a more familiar and clear manner, as to the way of his outward dealing, than with any other prophets. (3.) In that the revelation made unto him concerned the ordering of the whole house of God, when the other prophets were employed only about particulars built on his foundation. Remove Reply Quote Notify

4488  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Observations of Theology: J. Edwards on: August 07, 2009, 10:58:44 AM I rather wonder that the word of God contains no more mysteries in it; and I believe it is because God is so tender of us, and reveals only such things as he sees that man, though so weak a creature, if of an humble and an honest mind, can well enough bear. Such tenderness we see in Christ towards his disciples; he had many things to say, but forbore, because they could not bear them yet. Though God does not depart from truth to accommodate himself to our manner of thinking, yet I believe he accommodates himself to our way of understanding, in his manner of expressing and representing things; as we are wont to do, when teaching little children. § 36. What can be more reasonable, than to believe a man, when he tells us, that he is sent from God to heal the diseases of our souls, and, in order that we may believe him, heals all sorts of men, of all manner of diseases, by a touch or a word; and plainly shows that he can do it when he will, let the disease be what it will? He tells us, that he will deliver us from spiritual and eternal death; that he will raise us from the dead, and give us eternal life; so that we shall live for ever, and not die: and to prove this, he gives evidence that he has power over men’s lives, by restoring them after they are dead; and rises from the dead himself. He tells us, that he will bestow heavenly glory upon us; and will translate us to heaven: and, to confirm us in this belief, tells us, that we shall see himself, after his death, ascend into heaven. What more could we desire? He tells us that he will undertake for us, and appear for us before God; and that we need not doubt, if he pleads for us, he shall procure acceptance, and, that we may see that it is true, he asks of God, concerning a man who had been dead four days, that he may come to life again; and tells God, that he asks it for this end that we may see that he always hears him, and grants what he requests: and accordingly, at his request, the dead man comes to life. Remove Reply Quote Notify

4489	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: TRUE COMMUNION	on: August 07, 2009, 09:53:05 AM
If God alone is to be exalted then where does that leave us with one another? Well this is very difficult to understand since we are made to be in fellowship with one another. But even tho there seemingly is a tension here about how we view other men and our propensity to make idols, yet i believe that there are holistic views of how God deals with us in light of the hidden corruption in the depths of our souls. I think that Gods primary work is this method of incisions and excisions. Because in the view of the sovereign movement of the disposition of God we cannot judge the cause of a persons particular corruption at the root of the image of the idol. This is why we have a world view that is predominately supernatural and not a progressive deterministic succession of falling into patterns of corruption. The human soul is not defined by what we can see but it is predominately deeper than we could fathom in all of the causes of these corrupted behaviors. We live in a world where Gods seeing, touching, and speaking are a communication in the method of incisions and excisions. This is why there seems to be no reason for how troubles of this world have built into them the paradigm of this cause of anthropomorphic mystery. God examines in this method. Every living thing is changing from one moment to the next. Let me apply this. In talking with the modern day Palagian the basic communication is this. "I do not like your God , somehow i must have some kind of autonomy. I have developed a language to express this." In other words the underlying communication is that "God is not like you say He is therefore i am god." Now then we are filters. All religion is built on developing a way to get to God instead of God coming down to man. There is very sophisticated ways in the way we have been able to oppose Gods method of supernatural and holistic communication to every problem. The primary method of healing is in the communication itself. These methods of war fare are mainly filtering through the child like opposition ... as if your child developed a language that opposed your language in order to be the adult. So its being able to filter the false proposition in a multi language epistemology that will be the convincing transformation.  4493  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Does God change His mind? on: August 07, 2009, 06:32:35 AM Foreknowledge of God Open Theism is a theological construct which claims that God's highest goal is to enter into a reciprocal relationship with man. In this scheme, the Bible is interpreted without any anthropomorphisms - that is, all references to God's feelings, surprise and lack of knowledge are literal and the result of His choice to create a world where He can be affected/changed by man's choices. God's exhaustive knowledge does not include knowledge of future free will choices by mankind because they have not yet occurred. One of the leading spokesman of open theism, Clark Pinnock, in describing how libertarian freedom trumps God's omniscience says, "Decisions not yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God. They are potential--yet to be realized but not yet actual. God can predict a great deal of what we will choose to do, but not all of it, because some of it remains hidden in the mystery of human freedom ... The God of the Bible displays an openness to the future (i.e. ignorance of the future) that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate." (Pinnock, "Augustine to Arminius, " 25-26) Evangelicals cannot remain neutral in response to this unbiblical view. The overriding presuppositions which open theists bring to the text are (1) libertarian freewill theism ["causeless choice"] (But can a natural man believe the gospel independent of the Holy Spirit? -- If not, I challenge Open Theists to tell me why not?) ... and (2) the Socinian belief that God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge of the future (i.e. that God is subject to part of his creation -"time"). Open Theists will also frequently point to biblical passages in which it is said that God changed his mind about something to prove his ignorance of future events. But usually it is the case that God is said to change His mind in sending judgment on people only after they repent of their sin. In Jeremiah 18:7-10 God simply shows that this type of relenting is a component of how He generally has decided to act: "If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it." In other words, many prophesies of blessings and cursing are conditional. God has the authority to reverse his judgment at any time. depending on the response of those prophesied against. Such warnings have tacit conditions such as when Jonah declared that Ninevah would be destroyed, but judgment does not take place because they repented. Jonah knew that God would have mercy on them and this is one of the reasons he runs away from the task at first. The prophet is supposed to hold out God's covenant terms, blessing for obedience and cursing for disobedience. Dr. Richard L. Pratt, Jr. from Historical Contingencies and Biblical Predictions 4495  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: TRUE COMMUNION on: August 06, 2009, 05:12:53 PM Gene.. i will separate the soul from the body in this post to make a point. I think that we naturally do not believe that we can be satisfied with God alone. I believe that our natural understanding of our soul having its rest in God as being almost averse to us is the flesh that is so predominate in our body with the five senses and our souls connection to the experience of our surroundings warring against God as being ever present. Isnt it true tho.. that grace has caused us to find comfort in our dieing to self? The reason of this is that our present suffering is not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed on the day of His power!! Now i have made it a practice as a matter of not offending His power to work in me, in my soul, to speak to my soul. I mean we have a new self, that being a very objective spiritual man that the soul has been borne under that power!!! This is the inner man.. or the deepness of Gods work done toward us . May i say that its the souls well of grace. We have been ravished by our loving Father, and i may say that we have this sweet spot, i think, as you and i fellowship we share this inner man experience of our souls rejoicing in Him. Now then i speak directly to my soul and sometimes i shout at it. Because i do not think that God requires us to be overcome by the trials of His discipline, but He actually disciplines us as we see every fiber of His universe that does not exist in His goodness ... He makes these things fall into judgment and decline. If God has changed us by grace and we have the deep experience of the Fathers love that comes from the inner man.. and we are ravished by our Father as we speak to our souls that God alone is our refuge... that in God alone do we depend upon as our honor.. in God alone is our salvation.. in God alone is the rock that we stand on that will never succumb to the weight of our existence. Then all the future and how we remember our lives is for His purpose of loving us and rewarding us in the end.  4500  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Was Christ "fully" human? on: August 05, 2009, 04:06:18 PM Quote from: THOR on August 05, 2009, 03:44:38 PM Quote I would add that the initial phase through which this was to be  accomplished  was decreed by the Father within a  covenant between only  Himself and His Son, Jesus Christ.     Men were not active participants in this covenant. Everything is a covenant with RT.  Where is such a covenant called a covenant in scripture? When did God make a covenant with Himself?  There is no such animal. There is a "New Covenent" made between God and the houses of Jacob and Israel but no other covenant exist except by someones imagination, We really mustn't add or subtract from scripture! Especially to justify our version of theology like RT. Thor The covenant that He made with the house of David is mine by rite because i am in Christ. I stand on this covenant as a gentile and it is the rock of victory that will bring Christ absolute rule in the new heaven and earth. Just as David was king of Israel... i am a king who has access to all of the covenant privileges that are promised to Israel in the NT covenant. Please give me your best shot Mr Thor. in a rebuttal. Oh and for all the word studies you use to weave your own doctrine you sure like to over look those conjunctions. I think there was some other grammar errors as well in the past. Oh the prepositions as well they only hold second fiddle to the reality of your proposition that they need man to complete them. And then your overlooking the near context in translating  "all" and "many". For me grammar is overrated cause a direct statement of truth that is rejected shows a lack of submission to the absolute authority of scripture.      Jeremiah 13 22 And if you ask yourself,        "Why has this happened to me?"—        it is because of your many sins        that your skirts have been torn off        and your body mistreated.  23 Can the Ethiopian  change his skin        or the leopard its spots? Uh Thor thinks so.        Neither can you do good        who are accustomed to doing evil Oh and i probably love Jerusalem more than you do... you just dont know it.