4545	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Forgiveness	on: July 28, 2009, 06:19:51 PM
Yes i know Christians that are bound up in the cycle of guilt. I have a lot of experience of this ... but only by memory. I believe it is from an over sensitive conscience. I want to further make a point to add to what i have said above. A philosophy of confession is built upon the reduplication of the behavior. When i say the cycle of guilt... i mean by association with a specific method as a means to unburden the guilt. Now this can be practiced by many different people of many denominations. I have seen this many times that a person tells me that God told them to do something that was clearly forbidden by the rule of scripture and yet they were very passionate about their methods. I ask myself... what causes them to stray so far away from that reverence for scripture? Its because their hearts are hardened by doing the steps. I think there are many reasons for people to find something that they can do to alleviate the distress of a sensitive conscience. I understand this struggle. I lived with a conscience with guilt that drove me away from grace. The cycle was that i was experiencing a level of guilt..and i wanted peace about it....so i would confess the sin but still the feeling of guilt did not go away. Then i thought that i need to make amends. But after i had made amends then i had guilt over another matter. And i would confess... but the feeling of guilt would still be there.. and again and again i went though this cycle of guilt and what i thought was forgiveness. Now the problem with trying to silence the conscience is a problem of teaching the conscience. A person with a sensitive conscience is more aware that when it speaks it uses the law to bring a person into a spiraling down into sorrow. There is nothing we can do in order to silence it completely. John says that if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness... if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves. Even in confession we still have remaining sins and sin.  I believe that God brings about the times where we struggle with sin and temptation in His sovereign will. Everyone has sin that is hanging over their heads. I mean that its not just the sins that are easy to overcome... like the big ones.. but its the sin that we struggle with on a daily basis. I mean also that sin is part of the way we think... the inability to live as if we are rejoicing in Him as He is too us.  Sin is present in us and is always the reason that we struggle with sorrow. When there is no more sorrow there will be no more sin. When there is no more sin it will be because we are passed on to the other side.  But God can make our sins very burdensome to us. Now then in teaching our consciences this attitude of grace then we are being forgiven. Repentance is an attitude that God requires more than we can produce in order to atone for our sin. Its not  necessarily focusing on ourselves as a means to find a sin in order to overcome that sin. A person who is familiar with the danger of sin has become familiar with the free grace of God.  When God begins to humble the believer , He does it by making that believer feel the weight of His sin. Not to tempt that person but to cause them to mourn over their sins. We are in Christ who took our sins and atoned for them all. There is no reason for us to find comfort in our own repentance.  There is no value in the condemnation of the law. It just leads us to death. The reason that we know forgiveness is because we know that our sins are no longer held against us. But we know that we still struggle with sin and sorrow. Now in thinking in a real way... i mean not a romantic way... i mean ... really thinking in terms of our own strength to make all of these things rite in our lives... we are looking at a very mysterious level of pain and sorrow that Christ took upon Himself in order to erase that sin. I mean we are looking at the bare facts. We in essence are sinners who have no understanding of the level of work it took for Him to deal with sin. Now then the glory of Christ is seen in our lack of self concern for our own health as it pertains to dealing with sorrow over the guilt of sin. Why is it that some people that you deal with on a daily basis look as if the guilt of their sins out weighs the glory of His forgiveness? I say that this is a problem with teaching the conscience. This is a very infantile spirit in dealing with the grace of Christ. Now then... what i mean as a matter of real facts is that the weight of the glory of Christ is all that will erase the weight of the sin and guilt that we need to have peace over.    4547  Forums / Theology Forum / Forgiveness on: July 28, 2009, 02:00:40 PM  I have been thinking about this topic because it seems that its the hot potato for mental health. I have been observing this religious movement and in my mind it is like an American quest to find happiness. One of the down falls of being zealous in a religious way is that we create a system of philosophy from the principles of scripture and instead of making the message about leading us to Christ, it becomes a slow process of unraveling all of the convictions we had about the place the bible has in our lives and we look to people and the rule book to gain our peace. There is a lot of disagreement in the christian community as to how much philosophy drawn from scripture as a general level of representing a healthy peaceful society , but not as a means to over rule scripture. What defines the difference between living according to the religion of the masses and living with a true zeal for the exclusivity of the scripture?  One of the philosophies drawn from scripture is that in order for us to experience freedom we must go back into our past and apologize to those people that we have offended on our quest to rid ourselves of a terrible set of addictions. I think this is one of the twelve steps. I myself have practice this in my life as a philosophy in a condition of a lack of awareness as to the level of authority the scripture was to have over my mind.  By experience and by some personal relationships with this kind of epistemology, there is a short view and a long view as i see it.One of the problems that arise after all of this behavior has been put into practice is this idea that God is teaching us to let go. There are a number of reasons that i find this dangerous... one is that eventually the process of confusion sets in. I mean if there is no end other than letting go or releasing your anxiety in order to know the higher power then that kind of communication is going to lead a person to an anti knowledge moral philosophy. One of the consistent practices in my observations about this kind of process is that there is a proficient ability to have a kind of religious self talk. I would say that it becomes a kind of zeal for the behavior of equal acceptance of different religious positions. Gods voice becomes the voice of reason in a moral sense. This is the end of this kind of practice. The redemptive method of finding peace actually brings on a religious zeal in a moral sense. They die in their religion.  I would like to know what everyone else thinks... kind of wanting to discuss it with you. I would like if i could help someone who is dealing with the awful deli ma of  having to deal with a sensitive conscience.     Reply Quote Notify 4548  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Was Christ "fully" human? on: July 28, 2009, 01:25:31 PM Quote from: beacon2 on July 28, 2009, 01:10:08 PM After discussing the “sinfulness” of the flesh, I think a disclaimer is in order right about now , lest what we’ve been saying here about the flesh put some of us under condemnation. I  started this thread to show that Jesus is not “fully” human in the “full”  sense of the word as Adam is/was human, so exploring the human nature of Adam first has very much been in order. However, anyone reading this thread needs to know that after all is said and done about the “sin nature” of man, the truth is that Christ took care of that “problem” for man ONCE and for ALL on the Cross.  That regardless of how "wicked", "sinful", "rotten," etc., we think that a man is, this is very much old news from God’s perspective (the only One that counts).  He has always known what was in man.  John 2:24-25.  That’s why He came! Therefore, this is why He sent His Son:  to nullify, disarm, make of no effect, ALL the deeds of man that have been in opposition to the will of God under the first covenant. In other words, Christ came to clean the slate for man AND to proclaim God’s new way of dealing with man--the Cov of Grace. So here is the Good News: God has dealt with the sin problem ONCE and FOR ALL.  He is not concerned with past sins  now.  His main thrust now is for His children to proclaim the GOOD NEWS -- that all a man has to do now to be permanently right with God is to meet the ONLY requirement under this new covenant.  And that requirement is:  to believe in the ONE He has sent. I used the word “permanently” above because nonbelievers are right before God NOW, while it is still called TODAY. In other words, while they are still breathing, alive, they still have a chance to turn to Christ. Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient, efficient, all encompassing,   for ALL men in regards to the forgiveness of sin.   All men are forgiven of their sins.   No, No, I am not saying they are all saved.  Nonbelievers, though forgiven right now, still have to comply with the ONE requirement under the New Cov.  They have to believe in the ONE HE HAS SENT. So while we can study how and why the sinful nature of man came to be, let’s not lose sight of  the fact that Christ took care of that problem ONCE and for ALL on the Cross.  This is why Christ said the following at the beginning of His ministry: Luke 4:17-18 17   The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18   "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,   19   to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." (NIV) So while it is still called TODAY,  it is still the Year of the Lord’s Favor, the year of Jubilee when His children may proclaim to all men that Christ has freed and released them from the yoke of the law and the condemnation of the flesh!! Let’s do it!     b2 Beacons do  you believe in annihilation or an actual hell? I asked this question before and i apologize if it has slipped my mind, 4555  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Reformed Doctrine on: July 27, 2009, 02:54:27 PM I love Calvin... but my favorite read is J Edwards. Calvin stimulates since He is the theologian of the Holy Spirit which people who have read Him know what i am talking about. Edwards sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God sparked the revivals that spread across this country in the Great Awakening. He also has a massive intellect... its hard to have that combination. But most people think that i sit around and read the reformers all day long.... actually.. i spend most of my time in meditation of scripture... at present in the 5th chapt of Heb.. memorizing the book. Any way... i will present the five points ... the doctrines of grace and any thing that is short and precise in this thread.  4561  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Was Christ "fully" human? on: July 27, 2009, 12:41:15 PM I dont think the reformers were inconsistent in their doctrine of sin in jumping from the hebrew OT text to the greek NT text. The apostle describes sin as a metonymy in the reformers view of  Romans 5-8 which is a parallel to Davids Psalm 119. I do not see any inconsistencies as i study and meditate on both text. The doctrine of sin is the simple one... i mean... Thor could throw away the greek nt testament and just with the poetry books alone come to the same conclusion as Paul.. who is the teacher for Calvinism. Reply Quote Notify 4562  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Was Christ "fully" human? on: July 26, 2009, 10:11:24 AM God made man with moral ability. Man had the ability to meet the requirements of God according to the demands of the law. The law does not offer a sliding scale of ability. Because God is faithful then He does whatever is rite. God cannot sin ... breaking one law is sin. God demanded absolute obedience from man in order for man to gain the acceptance required for him to be rewarded with Gods completed righteousness. In the garden man was under a test because there was a period of time were man was required to obey in order to be able to eat of the tree of life and not be under that test. Man was fully able to meet all of Gods requirements. Man was not created with any ability to chose to sin.God was pleased with man because man did as he was required by the law.  Man was totally responsible to obey. But man was made with a will that was subject to change. In other words the will could be weakened. And yet man did not have any cause in himself to want to disobey. Man was completely righteous. If we think that the first man needed anything from God to procure mans own goodness then in some way man is not responsible for his sin from the garden. And if man is not fully responsible then how can we measure the obedience of Christ in relation to the law is full responsibility as defined by the garden account is not really full responsibility? The scriptures say 10 "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gods demands are not lowered at any time. God is who the law explains. He cannot deny Himself.  Since man was fully responsible then he fell from his original position on his own. God did not cause mans fall. But God decreed mans fall. It was Gods passive decree. Now after the fall no one deserves to be made good. It is by the mercy and grace of God that anyone comes to be acceptable to God. And still it is through the righteousness of Christ. Because if man needed help before the fall then he wasnt fully responsible and God had to be part of the reason that man is in the position he is in after the fall. If man could only meet the requirements of the law by God giving man the power and ability in a  gracious way before the fall then God is required to be gracious to all men after the fall. And if God is displaying His Sons absolute obedience to the Law, then then in order for it to be a just scale in comparative to mans full responsibility... i mean that there is no other motive in subtracting Christ work by mans supposed need in the garden. In comparison Christ work was absolutely necessary because in mans fall he was absolutely responsible. Reply Quote Notify 4563  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Was Christ "fully" human? on: July 25, 2009, 08:42:31 PM Thor thinks that he is the Holy Spirit... he thinks his discipline will curb his kids sin nature. I have never seen a verse that says  a fathers discipline alone will do anything accept make the kid want to do more of the same. In fact there is no hope for a child who has been taught to work at doing good. Well... there is in this world... i mean you know all the rewards and the haughty eyes and the sticking out of the chest... thats my son... look how much a legacy he has brought me... Yes i have seen it so many times ... a very thin line between an arrogant attitude and what a real understanding of what a man is to be. Why even if a man was the most religious man this earth has ever produced ... still that power would be a god of his own making. Thats why the scripture says that the heart is deceitful above all things.Now then how can a deceitful heart be deceitful unless it appears to be something that it is not ... never was ... and never will be? The heart is the seat of all of the thoughts that a man produces in the view he has of himself... uh... wow... i  myself have never experienced in one minute a desire to some how not to prove i am rite in some self protective way in order to clear my false view of what i know has corruption mixed in with what is true. Now... according to Christ standard of truth... i am most miserable!! And if i think for one moment that something that i do or some kind of power that i exercise will correct another persons behavior then i am showing just how in love with prestige that i appear to be rite about!!! We cannot do one good thing...all our works are filthy rags... unless God changes the heart then there is nothing we can do... there is nothing that we can argue in order for there to be a new reality!!!! Ok... lets take the focus off of our abilities and put it back where it belongs.  4565  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: July 25, 2009, 11:38:27 AM Let me say that there are some really honest post here ... I agree with TB.. and I love to read his post.I cant remember skipping any of them. TB has been a real encouragement  to me over the time he has been here and saved me from a lot of heart ache.  Its really funny to me for someone to point to one behavior and describe this battle as if it was that one sin.  I mean there already is a shot gun pointed at our heads why focus on the trigger and blow the brain out? I think that the desire we are talking about is the strongest and most powerful force that we can experience on this earth. I think the desire effects more than just the way we think about sex... it is mixed with anger... blame... guilt and shame. It is part of our flesh. Paul says what i want to do i do not do and what i do not want to do that i do.  This is why God has given us the gift of marriage. I think that in this way sex can be a source of encouragement in keeping us from all the extremes in trying to deal with ourselves in our battle with the flesh. It is not about us... but it is all about us. I mean... it is not about us because if we focus on ourselves then sex can never satisfy us. In other words lust leads to death... that is lust just leads us to the next lust. And lust just gets stronger and stronger with no real satisfaction. I think instead of thinking about complete victory we need to see the holistic way that this sin can affect us on many different levels and be aware of its presence in this way. It is about us because if there is no fight then it usually ends up hardening our hearts. Its the fight that is always present in the believer. There is good pain that leads one to persevere in prayer... and its not going to go away just because you get married. But it is not as difficult. I think tho that resistance to giving in is good. And the more you direct the desire to other things the more you are going to be able to resist. I believe after much memorization and meditation that sex and anger are closely related. I mean the more you resist the more you are going to experience desperation... and the more you are desperate the more your are going to try to find comfort in His love so that this is sort of a process of pain bringing on passion. And that builds conviction in prayer.It probably softens the heart and gets you to focus on women as persons.  But giving in is not the end of the world. I should write more about this cause these are the things that i think about in my Psalms.  I love writing about things no one wants to talk about.    Reply Quote Notify 4566  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why is driniking alcohol considered a sin? on: July 25, 2009, 10:44:11 AM Since Roy brought up this idea ... a Hebrew idea ...an entrapment... let me say a few things ... since i believe it is at the heart of experiencing forgiveness ... and i might say that God forgives us in a way that we do not naturally accept as our deserving it. So if we define forgiveness as having no accusations about our sin... then we must see that entrapment goes far beyond an offense. This is why i do not think the apostle is making a fast rule here... rather it is kind of like an application in certain situations. There is nothing wrong with drinking alcoholic beverages. What we are dealing with here is on the one hand the attitude of the Pharisee in putting a yoke of bondage on believers in that teaching and on the other hand a mature brother with a lack of concern for the weaker brother. Both of these are setting a trap for Gods elect to enter into an enticement to find blame by the sin. This is why the doctrine should control the attitude of a believer so that his first concern is not to set a trap for another believer. Because this i think is a definite attitude that must be always in the awareness of one who enjoys forgiveness and an assurance of the love of God. In other words the motive is to fan the flame of the desire of another brother to find an assurance that Christ is going to produce in that believer a renewal of encouragement to find comfort in the eternal things and not to trust in the things of this world. Now then.... we live as if we find the enjoyment and pleasure of those things in this world but we believe at all times that they are fleeting and we would gladly give them up if we were in a special season of prayer or because we think the younger believer is going to be present where we are going to drink. But at the same time we must not make a rule where there is not one. Paul encourages Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach sake. It would relieve some of the anxiety of having to deal with some of the problems in the church. The way that God teaches is producing an environment of grace. This is where traps are described as sharp arrows that are accusations and the shield is the word of God that deflects the accusations that the Devil brings at the believer through other people. So that the traps are like nets or these harsh attitudes toward the saints. The way we come to an understanding of these paradigms in our attitudes is that we must see that most of the deep wounds that we carry around in our own hearts were produced by someone who was trying to control us with rules. These deep wounds are how we understand the level of an accusing conscience. Since we no longer have a servile relationship with the law of God... then the freedom we experience as being completely free of accusation is the reality that we find hard to understand without dealing with knowing how a person can spread a net in our path. As we enjoy the freedom of addressing an accusing conscience we will sin less... because where grace is there is a stronger desire in us to please the one who has kept us from the enemy of our souls. This will also help a young believer get past the rules to protect him from temptation.