This is where Korah and his leaders and
followers were God opened the earth and swallowed them up and any
remembrance of them... including some of the goats in the assembly. Its a sovereign choice.Num.
16 4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah
and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to
him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him.
The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put fire and incense in them before the LORD.
The man the LORD chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!" 8 Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn't it enough for you that the
God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself
to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the
community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your
fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the
priesthood too. 11 It is against the LORD that you and all your
followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble
against him?"
Its interesting that the wicked are not only in
the world .. but the goats are classified in the same category as the
same as those in the world. They stand with the Devil accusing the
saints. Thus you have Christ hatred for the Pharisees... Korah s ruler
ship. Psalms 55 12 If an enemy were insulting me,
I could endure it;
if a foe were raising himself against me,
I could hide from him.
13 But it is you, a man like myself,
my companion, my close friend,
14 with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship
as we walked with the throng at the house of God.
15 Let death take my enemies by surprise;
let them go down alive to the grave,
(Num 16 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they
owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from
the community.)
for evil finds lodging among them.
16 But I call to God,
and the LORD saves me.
17 Evening, morning and noon
I cry out in distress,
and he hears my voice.
18 He ransoms me unharmed
from the battle waged against me,
even though many oppose me.
Psalm 46
For the director of music. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A song.
1 God is our refuge and strength,
an ever-present help in trouble.
2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way
and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea,
3 though its waters roar and foam
and the mountains quake with their surging.
Selah
4 There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God,
the holy place where the Most High dwells.
5 God is within her, she will not fall;
God will help her at break of day.
6 Nations are in uproar, kingdoms fall;
he lifts his voice, the earth melts.
7 The LORD Almighty is with us;
the God of Jacob is our fortress.
Selah
8 Come and see the works of the LORD,
the desolations he has brought on the earth.
9 He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth;
he breaks the bow and shatters the spear,
he burns the shields with fire.
10 "Be still, and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth."
11 The LORD Almighty is with us;
the God of Jacob is our fortress.
Selah
Gods
protection of Israel.... comparing an earth quake to His protection of
them by destroying all of their enemies. Possibly an earth quake for
Korah... we do not usually see the correlation of His decrees in this
comparative of the world and His church.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 17, 2009, 04:25:44 PM
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.................................
I
made my break organized religion and I'm not enticed in anyway to even
consider it..the lack of grace in application is staggering..the
manifestation of it's reality that actually changes a heart and changes
the mind and changes a person into becoming more like the son and into
the bride is the ultimate weapon against this world , flesh and enemy
IMO has been compromised into a activity list of "like" minded effort in
order to prove or testify of one's commitment is one that I left long
ago..
Yeah Jeff, I've felt like you do many, many times before about organized religion or the counterfeit church
as I call it. I share your frustration about how it presents the
gospel (or non gospel) with God as a task master, but I have come to a
peace and rest (of sorts) about this and now concentrate on being very
attentive to the Spirit’s leading on how to confront this. Jesus
mentioned the "wheat and tares" growing together and Paul spoke of the
"son of the slave woman" persecuting the "son of the free woman." So
I’m afraid this is the way it is going to be, and that the counterfeit
church will be around till the end of this age. But one thing
gives me hope, and that is the fact that we are saved by grace through
faith and absolutely nothing else. And that once a believer is born
again of God’s Spirit, nothing will separate that believer from the love
of God--nothing! -- even if he/she continues to move within the counterfeit church
and listen and buy into the false doctrines that are being propagated
there. We have the Father’s promise that His children would not be
deceived. You and I and many others bought into the lies at one
time, but He has brought us out and continues to bring others out into
the light of His Truth. This has happened in my own immediate family
with one of our sons and his wife finally seeing the Light not too long
ago, even though the rest of the family had broken away from the system
many years ago. Answered prayer! Hang in there Jeff!  b2 PS I define the "counterfeit church"
as an organism composed of people whose belief system is contrary to
the Word of God and who are not all necessarily found in the visible
majority that we see in a building called "church."
Now..
the church is our mother... but she has gone a whoring... and you know
that Gods glory will shine through because we are not like Him... He
knows how to bring in this gospel message when it becomes evident that
the church has lost her way. He speaks as a judge over the apostate
church. What is an apostate church? They teach the doctrines of man as
if they were the doctrines of God.. they believe that the church is
actually ok just by its gathering.. and they present their good works
from the view that man has his own righteousness. This is a philosophy
that men can choose God and in bringing their goodness to salvation they
can obey God without a very close examination of His revelation. But
God says.. that man is unable to come to Him... man cannot bring one
good thing to God... but God must come to man... for who thinks that He
can produce one weight of acceptance before God as a sacrifice of praise
to Him? That man is going to receive a rebuke ...God will confront Him
to His face!!!This is the false religion that damns men in their sins!! God
comes and will not be silent... He says... you recite my laws but you
prostitute me by your offerings... then He says... what rite have you to
recite my laws and take up my covenant on your lips... dont you know
that i willed your salvation from eternity... dont you know that it is
My salvation? What offering do you have that you can present that will
gain my acceptance? All of your works are as filthy rags... you may play
that political game with one another ... to up one another.. to point
to yourselves as able ... but you thought you were like Me...I hate
pride.. bring me your thank offerings.... in other words ... i want you
to see yourself as i see you.. as i have exposed to you your own evil
hearts... dont come to me with your own goodness... come to me with open
hands.. and i will fill them... give me the thankfulness i deserve and
quite playing that you are good.
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4602
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 17, 2009, 03:34:36 PM
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I'm a Christian Thor. I do not follow Calvin  Are
you saying salvation is conditional? Do we have to obey all the rules
and regulations found in the bible or we lose our salvation? Couldn't tell from your post. Later. Gotta run. b2 Salvation
has always been conditional in the Bible; unless you are a
universialist. If you don't believe in Christ you aren't saved and if
you don't do the things His says (Jesus' words) you aren't saved. God has always wanted faith and obedience to go hand in hand. That is very clear throughout His Word. The
New Covenant in Messiah's blood makes that a lot easier because God not
only forgives your sin (because of personal faith in Christ) but He
writes His Torah on your heart (Hebrew for 'mind' or 'will') and put His
Spirit in all believers...so they are 'caused' to obey him. That
doesn't mean we can't disobey; but in means we now have the power to
obey through our faith and trust in Christ so there is no excuse to say
"i can't obey! I'm a prisoner of sin and the devil. ...but if we sin and confess our sin He will forgive us. I am not a universialist but have faith in the power of God to save men without desciding their fate ahead of time. God can do this because He is a Great and Almighty God. Thor
Two
line American theology.... just keep it on the surface and let both
camps dwell together in unity... after all ... its spreading the gospel
thats important.... blah ... blah ... blah... blah ... blah. Down we go.
Oh... i can here those political ulterior motives ... like a fertile
psychosomatic plant growth prospering the pharmaceuticals.
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4603
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 17, 2009, 01:06:24 PM
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Jeff,
are you saying that unless believers go back to their first love
(walking by faith, that is, led by the Spirit) Christ is going to
“remove” or take away our witness, in other words, His light that shines
through us?
“Lamp stand” is also interpreted as being symbolic
of the light (guidance) we receive from God through His Word and
Spirit as in Ps 119:105, “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for
my path.” (NIV)
Either way, the way that the phrase is written: “Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place.”
is definitely as a conditional proposition, a warning of punishment if
you will if believers don't comply. And this is incompatible with
salvation by grace.
This confusion exemplifies the error of
Calvinism. In that...The Grace of God that “saves” is not
predestination, but it is the sending of God's Son so whosoever believe
upon Him will be saved. When you believe and trust in Christ that
results in a supernatural change in you where the Holy Spirit indwells
you and your renewed mind causes you to walks after Christ in the same
manner you were saved...by and through faith. ( Colossians 2:6) Faith
grows as trust and obeying God. Trusting and obeying God SHOWS your
faith; and if your are born again you will obey God because of the power
of God that dwells in you ). If a man says he loves God but hates his
brother, then he is a lier and the truth is not in him. ..pretty simple stuff but not so simple for confused by false teachings or if a person is religious but not born again. I
can see how a lot of scripture can confuse so many who depend on their
special selection to save them and then read the Word where to says they
have faith and obey God to be saved. Calvinism says God picks
you unconditionally to be saved, so reasoning follows, that obedience or
anything else is superfluous to salvation. They believe It doesn't
matter if you obey Christ or not; your salvation is sealed. Calvinists
may argue that a saved person will want to obey God but they also say
you are still a sinner, i.e. an habitual sinner who is still mastered by
the flesh and the devil. ....of course that still doesn't help with the
question. And the Bible never says any such thing! It's worthy
to note that Paul and Peter never address their letters to “sinners”,
but to the “saints”, i.e....to the sinners at Galatia or to the sinners
at Collossi, etc. Why? Because those that are born again are New
creations and they no long follow the lusts of the flesh or allow the
flesh to be their master. If they do then they do not belong to Christ Romans 8:5-8 (King James Version) 5For
they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they
that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But
ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of
God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is
none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. If your sinful nature has not been crucified then you will continue to do the works of the flesh which Paul outlines: Gal
5: 19-26 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality,
impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy,
fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, [1]
drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you
before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of
God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control;
against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ
Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If
we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not
become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Conclusion:
No one is predestined to be saved thereby absolving them from obedience
and living a Holy (separate from the world) life. God does give you
power to live holy and does predestine those who are saved (by
personally believing in Christ) to be conformed to the image of Christ
and to the plan which He has for you life. As you walk in faith and
obedience God unfolds your pathway to you. You can deselected
yourself from salvation (because it's a pathway) by unbelief and an
unrepentant life of “in your face God” sin. Hebrews 12:25 Luke
7:21-23: 21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter
the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22
Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your
name?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." ...and
that is why you see such passages throughout Scripture. Listen to Jesus
and scripture and not to some late medieval dead guy who thinks the 4th
century church father was the 13th Apostle. Thor
What
is this? big bang Christianity? Uh... never seen anything accomplished
without a will. Salvation is in God alone.... we are passive in the
reception....
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4604
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 17, 2009, 12:10:44 PM
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Jeff, Willis, and MBG, What do you consider effective Christian witnessing to nonbelievers or other believers for that matter? Specifically, what does effective
witnessing look like, is like, with the understanding that a
"Christian" -- child of God -- is a believer who is indwelt and led by
the Holy Spirit? And if we as children of God (by each others' estimation) are not effectively witnessing, do we then make a "laundry list" of do's and don'ts and shoulds and musts to follow? And this brings us back to the original theme of this thread, huh?  b2 I
dont think that all of these personal discipleship qualities are
flushed out in our lives on a performance motif. We need to look at this
in a whole counsel way... the bible is very realistic and holistic in
how it approaches each saint. The problem in discipleship programs is
that we always get the cart before the horse... or we make comparisons
about motives that have a different color than what is in the completed
cannon. Its like a ping pong battle in the game of its all about God...
or its all about us... Christ says i came in the spirit of joy and they
partied and you wouldnt take part in that.... John came with a heavy
message...very serious and you did not follow that... so most of the
problems in this area are that we have people who do not know what the
new testament model is in this whole counsel motive driven design... i
would only say ... unless you get to the motive.. you will only repeat
what has already failed.
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4605
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 17, 2009, 11:05:02 AM
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This is the same kind of exhortation as a
warning to not let your heart be hardened by sins deceitfulness. It
doesnt mean that finding our first love is eliminating sin.. or getting
to a point where we are all confessed up on our sins... this isnt a
moral persuasion in order for us to resist sin on our own... since a
christian can fall into many sins and by appearance look like the world.
And another christian can look like a true saint iin avoiding sin and
yet not really looking to Christ as his only Savior. My contention is
that this self righteousness is easy to fall into in this day and age
because of the false views that are taught about what a saint looks like
when he is struggling with sin.
The majority of men practice
some form of religion. All men have a tendency to be led along by the
nominal appearance of a form of religious zeal. I do not think that you
can say that being a zealot for Christ is necessarily being a balanced
christian. In a sense we are looking at these approaches to how we view a
zealous disciple and the difference in a religious self righteous
person. In seeing these things and how they affect our understanding of
Christ as the cause of our being delivered from sin and being declared
righteous this is not an easy examination in measuring in an absolute
sense. This is why any kind of measurement must have the teaching as the
caboose that pulls the train...In His light we see light. As you know
... light shines in many different effervescence... (is that a proper
use of that word?)
This is why Christ spoke in a language that was
inflammatory in a sense... and yet it was parabolic in a another
sense...on the one hand He hid if from the self righteous and on the
other hand His teaching was like a light that only showed the way at
what ever level His disciple was at. Paul states a doctrine and then He
says.. that if any do not accept this teaching ... he was confident that
God would reveal it to them....
And so His true disciples are taught
how impossible the standard is so that in a sense we are drawn into a
zeal that we do not fully comprehend. Sometimes we leave things in this
life behind us because we do not fully comprehend how important it is in
having the power that he gives unless it is preceded by the desperation
to find HIm at all cost...not as a " heavy burden" but a zeal that is
stouthearted ...a real sinner declaring the goodness of God in the kings
face.... we cannot do everything in this life. I think you are
beginning to see how wide that the paradigm looks in different saints. I
mean these dis positional qualities applied to this love in comparison
to the narrative in the gospels.
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