4591	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan knows what we think?	on: July 21, 2009, 08:56:53 PM
Quote from: THOR on July 21, 2009, 04:29:46 PM Quote from: Great2bHIS on July 20, 2009, 02:09:44 PM Hi Beacon, I signed on to post to Thor and saw you posted so I'll come back and read that next. Thor--- I for one am glad Roy uses the original languages and I agree with you it brings clarity.  Both are much richer languages than ours.  Like the word "love" we just use the single word LOVE to evoke lots of feelings & levels of love, but if I remember right they had 3 words and each word expressed the difference. But I also do NOT think my Savior & Lord is offended that I call him Jesus.  Just like I don't think He's offended if a tribe in some far off land calls him by their translation of His name. (had the note that said someone else posted while I was composing so I read what Willis wrote.  I have to say I agree that using it all the time does tend to hinder communication--but there again since Roy is my brother and he speaks that way I think it's more loving to try to take more time to read his posts and understand him rather than criticize him for the way he communicates.  I'm sure people could fully criticize my repetitiveness and long posts if they said what was really on their minds   But they don't--we all communicate in our own unique way--so what's the point of criticism?  Don't speak that way because "I" don't like it.  When people criticize another in that way I say on this side of the screen-- whatever!) Ok back to my post-- Quote from: Thor The word LAW is a 'borrowed' word from the Saxons (Vikings) who used this word in a different way, It has no sense of the Hebrew word Torah, which actually means instruction or teaching. That makes sense when God said He would write his "laws" on our hearts and minds.  Write His teaching & instruction on our hearts and mind--which the Holy Spirit helps us with. But it does it make sense when used in some verses such as -- "for sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace" --that would translate? you are not under the instruction or teaching of God but under grace? OR "all who rely on observing the law are under a curse" --that would translate that all who rely on observing God's instruction or teaching is under a curse? "We who are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.  -so is that to read justified by NOT observing God's instruction & teaching? That sounds contrary to what I see you post often...even in the post above-- Quote from: Thor The word legalism does not appear in the Bible yet is a common term coined by many who many who do not want to obey certain commandments or criticize those who do. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. -so again is that to read by not observing God's teaching & instructions one will be justified in Christ? What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.  For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Would that then be saying that the instruction and teaching doesn't do away with the PROMISE God made to Abraham of Jesus?  And that our inheritance doesn't depend on observing God's teaching & instruction but on the PROMISE..which was Jesus? What then was the purpose of the law?  It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. So does that verse read--What then was the purpose of the instruction & teaching?  It was added because of transgressions until the SEED (which was Jesus) to whom the promise referred had come? Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.  So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.  Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Does that read: Before faith came we were held prisoners by God's teaching & instruction, locked up until faith could be revealed.  ? and- So God's instruction & teaching was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.  Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of God's teaching & instruction? But when the time had fully come God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, Does that translate: But when the time had fully come God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under God's instruction & teaching, to redeem those under God's instruction & teaching. Please help me make sense of these verses & others in light of your saying that the "law" means teaching & instruction of God.  I think I understand it one way but you might be meaning something else?  Quote from: Great2bHIS on July 20, 2009, 02:09:44 PM Hi Beacon, I signed on to post to Thor and saw you posted so I'll come back and read that next. Thor--- I for one am glad Roy uses the original languages and I agree with you it brings clarity.  Both are much richer languages than ours.  Like the word "love" we just use the single word LOVE to evoke lots of feelings & levels of love, but if I remember right they had 3 words and each word expressed the difference. But I also do NOT think my Savior & Lord is offended that I call him Jesus.  Just like I don't think He's offended if a tribe in some far off land calls him by their translation of His name. (had the note that said someone else posted while I was composing so I read what Willis wrote.  I have to say I agree that using it all the time does tend to hinder communication--but there again since Roy is my brother and he speaks that way I think it's more loving to try to take more time to read his posts and understand him rather than criticize him for the way he communicates.  I'm sure people could fully criticize my repetitiveness and long posts if they said what was really on their minds   But they don't--we all communicate in our own unique way--so what's the point of criticism?  Don't speak that way because "I" don't like it.  When people criticize another in that way I say on this side of the screen-- whatever!) Ok back to my post-- Quote from: Thor The word LAW is a 'borrowed' word from the Saxons (Vikings) who used this word in a different way, It has no sense of the Hebrew word Torah, which actually means instruction or teaching. That makes sense when God said He would write his "laws" on our hearts and minds.  Write His teaching & instruction on our hearts and mind--which the Holy Spirit helps us with. But it does it make sense when used in some verses such as -- "for sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace" --that would translate? you are not under the instruction or teaching of God but under grace? OR "all who rely on observing the law are under a curse" --that would translate that all who rely on observing God's instruction or teaching is under a curse? "We who are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.  -so is that to read justified by NOT observing God's instruction & teaching? That sounds contrary to what I see you post often...even in the post above-- Quote from: Thor The word legalism does not appear in the Bible yet is a common term coined by many who many who do not want to obey certain commandments or criticize those who do. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. -so again is that to read by not observing God's teaching & instructions one will be justified in Christ? What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.  For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. Would that then be saying that the instruction and teaching doesn't do away with the PROMISE God made to Abraham of Jesus?  And that our inheritance doesn't depend on observing God's teaching & instruction but on the PROMISE..which was Jesus? What then was the purpose of the law?  It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. So does that verse read--What then was the purpose of the instruction & teaching?  It was added because of transgressions until the SEED (which was Jesus) to whom the promise referred had come? Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.  So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.  Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Does that read: Before faith came we were held prisoners by God's teaching & instruction, locked up until faith could be revealed.  ? and- So God's instruction & teaching was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.  Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of God's teaching & instruction? But when the time had fully come God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, Does that translate: But when the time had fully come God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under God's instruction & teaching, to redeem those under God's instruction & teaching. Please help me make sense of these verses & others in light of your saying that the "law" means teaching & instruction of God.  I think I understand it one way but you might be meaning something else?  Like most languages words can take on different meanings according to context which can confuse people like us. In his letters, Paul is using the word Law to imply an OT system of faith for salvation, and not it's other meaning of “instruction”. OT Jews needed faith to be saved but the Messiah wasn't that object of faith, because they didn't know yet that the Messiah would come and die for their sins and all they needed to do was put their trust in Him. That came latter. But when Messiah came they need to shift their faith to the Messiah and off of the old object of faith which was the old faith minus Jesus.  In Paul's day gentiles were encouraged to be circumcised by custom to become fully converted to Judaism and be officially part of the Covenant of God. As I said; In his letters, Paul uses “Law” to mean that old system of faith and salvation.  Some Christian Gentile converts were being told to do the same thing as the previous gentile converts, which would make Christ secondary to a believers salvation. That would mean that they could not be saved. The OT uses “Law' as instruction pretty much the way I said.  The same difference in usage by the Jews is true for the word Torah. It can mean the first five books of the OT or it can mean the whole collective OT.  Language is complicated and that's why good teachers are necessary in the church. So faith and obedience to Torah for God's salvation will no longer work. Faith and obedience to Christ for salvation is now the only way. Thor This is a lie... any one who reads the OT ... putting away their Torah ideas...can see that Christ made appearances (a theophany). Salvation has not changed.... they were looking for a coming redeemer as their Savior. Lord... Lamb... Son...etc... the old testament is a Triune personal effect in each word in the establishment of Divine truth just like the NT.
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4592  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why is driniking alcohol considered a sin? on: July 21, 2009, 08:27:04 PM We need to see that it is  impossible to know that we are controlled by a substance if we are not saturated with its influence. We have a natural distaste for seeing someone inebriated. I think that our natural attitude about what is normal.... is thinking ... feeling... and sensing as if we were indifferent about things. Why would the bible compare the appearance of being filled with the Spirit to being inebriated? Because in both cases there is different levels of control. The regeneration of the Holy Spirit is not a subtraction of the paradigm of anxiety and sorrow. This is were we fail to see the intellectual tendencies to find comfort in a system of theology by our mis application of the ways of God in relation to how He has made us. In trying to seek for a balance... and that is mixed with the culture of arminianism ... I mean even in the so called charismatic movement. It is the Spirits ways to have the most direct influence as it is described by the doctrine. This is where we find a natural tendency to describe a system of theology by how we have applied these doctrines to the soul and its needs to worship God as He is. The understanding of these different influences on the soul is deepened as a way of growth to establish a beachhead of experience by the doctrine so that the doctrine is no longer the end of the experience. We must know our God... we must ascend upward and then when we have climbed the heights we then can look at who we are. I would argue that this climb is buttressed by the control of the Holy Spirit as we look at the image of Christ.. so that it involves a pleasure that is predominate in the knowledge of Christ. This struggle has not just been on the other side... it is even among reformers. It is mainly the consistent teaching on how regeneration... renewal... intellectual understanding, faith and the will are interrelated in describing what the control of the Holy Spirit looks like. I think that there is this tendency to make things so simple in an epistemological way so that the healing element is in the purely intellectual moral agreement on what the christian is to appear to be. But as i have stated that the idea of finding the proper understanding of a truth an the power of influence of that truth as the Spirit applies it to the soul... is to be applied as it is enlivening the understanding so that the control element is designed to effect the pleasure of the illumination to the understanding as the horse that pulls the cart and not the ascent of faith to obedience. The argument that i have been involved with in the other camp of reformers is over this matter of the intellectual ascent as being evidenced by obedience and not an increase necessarily in stirring the motive. Some people put a high premium on the two sides of faith... ascent and obedience. As if faith itself had a value in its being called a big faith. But faith is simply and agency in which the living realities or experiences flow through. When we describe a persons faith we are describing the whole process including the motives. Thats why faith is determined to be real by the object rather than these personal effects. Since we have been regenerated we have been made alive... we are experiencing the power of the resurrection in this renewal. We are being renewed day by day.  When David prays in the Spirit He is praying with the experience of peace.. joy... love ... faithfulness... etc... The evidence of the Holy Spirit is the experience of His attributes. We call these religious affections. This is why in the confession the reformers compare the working of faith to a process where it flows from love. Then they apply this working to the process of stirring up the gift that is in you. The reason is because there is always a cause for a person to desire one thing over another. Any kind of knowledge that comes into the mind is coming through the 5 senses... and the mind is not separated from these different faculties of the soul... they are interrelated and active before the mind grasp the knowledge and in relation to the object the mind is viewing. So that the mind is pleased grasping some new knowledge. This is growing in an understanding of what is most pleasing to the mind in order for a person to chose one thing over another.  What this says is that David was praying for the Lord to not take this pleasure of peace and joy as a controlling experience from him. So we see that the experience of joy and peace and freedom in the Holy Ghost is a matter of these longing desires... or these longing graces... which influence the understanding in order to grasp the reality of a truth. In describing this renewal process we are giving God the glory that He deserves as the spoken reality in bringing to light the hidden life that is in us as the cause of obedience. When Paul says.. I am what i am by the grace of God ... He was saying that God began to change Him when the Holy Spirit caused him to long for the eternal realities in the illumination of the truth to the mind... so that the Holy Spirit began to control Paul as if He were under the influence of alcohol.      Reply Quote Notify

4593  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan knows what we think? on: July 21, 2009, 12:01:48 PM Guys the NT was written in Greek... there is no holy language because the NT was a Latin culture. If God were just the God of the Hebrew culture then He still would be a mystery... Christ came into a totally different world than the prophets of the OT.  Through out the spread of the gospel into the uttermost parts of the earth ... Bible translations have been the reason for this.  If God needed a heavenly language then He could have pinned the whole bible with His finger... but He used finite men who were sinners and did not violate their personalities or their way of thinking and writing in order to produce a holy document.  Reply Quote Notify

4594  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why is driniking alcohol considered a sin? on: July 20, 2009, 11:31:32 PM Quote from: Willis on July 20, 2009, 08:44:29 PM I've been amazed by the mental gymnastics of some preachers to "prove" that the wine of that day was really just "grape juice" with no alcoholic content. Now it's true that most historians believe the wine of that day was watered down sometimes as much as 10:1. But it was watered down mostly for economic reasons or to make the water taste better. Water wasn't always all that pure in those days. I think that is part of the Cana Wedding story, i.e., the wine Jesus made was the pure, undiluted stuff that would have normally been served first to impress the guests. As the party progressed and people started getting full and eating and drinking less the diluted stuff would make its appearance because it was cheaper and by that time only the drunks were drinking it.    I got to laugh at that reasoning that they only drank the un diluded stuff... uh... so the desire to abuse a substance has changed from biblical times? give me a break!!!!... Sometimes they would drink all day... dont know if it was the fully diluted stuff the 50 50 or the undiluded. Its clear from scripture that the problem of drunkenness goes back at least to Noah.  But how did Noah know unless it was before that? I myself am not an addictive personality when it comes to substances... my wife also.. never had that kind of a problem... but marijuana is legal in some states... under medical supervision. I dont see anything wrong with that.  Reply Quote Notify

4595  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Why is driniking alcohol considered a sin? on: July 20, 2009, 07:19:15 PM There is nothing wrong with any substance as long as it doesnt control you...in other words in moderation and putting it down in certain cases. Freedom is a growing ability to enjoy all things in moderation... that is a work of the Spirit.  Legalism... do not taste do not touch .. only feeds a lack of growth in our spiritual lives. Reply Quote Notify

4596  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 19, 2009, 04:22:58 PM His peace is better than anything that we can find as comfort in this world. I do not think that you can separate any of Gods attributes in His presence for us to dwell in His peace. This is why the teaching of all of His attributes are leading us to dwell in His rest. This is the totality of being set apart for a holy purpose because God is holy. He has already obtained peace since we have been justified by faith. Here is where we grow in our understanding of finding all of our rest in Him. We are being opposed by a temptation to find our comfort in something else. In a way this temptation is ever present because when we want to do good evil is rite there with us. But we have a totally new reality that has become predominate in our view of rest. The difficulty is finding rest in the simplicity that is in Jesus Christ. What we need to see is that in seeking Christ we find our rest. Because He promises that those who seek Him will find Him. This rest is who we define Christ in any one attribute as the reality of all of the other attributes. This is the holiness we seek. Since we have been regenerated we have begun to be taught the ways of God. This teaching is controlled by the Holy Spirit and He will lead us in the way of righteousness. I do not think that there is a way for us to lose confidence in His ability to guide us so that we will remain in a temptation to depart so that we do not find Him to be all we need. Our confidence is built on Him always being there as a source of comfort in order for us to know that peace that passes all understanding. Here again is that meta physical transparent peace that defines His holiness. All of this is our ongoing experience of His salvation. When we rest in Him we know that the more we seek Him by the means of grace the more we are going to grow in our understanding of finding comfort in His shelter. This is Him speaking salvation to us. We learn to know His voice alone. These positive illuminations are new realities that are deepening and growing like a seed implanted in us is growing that fruit from this nourishment. He speaks everything into existence and we know that our real and more profound peace will come when He speaks that kind of peace to us in the illumination of that saving knowledge. Every word of God is like a choice piece of gold or silver. It is our seeking HIm alone that leads us to this profound pleasure of speaking salvation to us. When we seek Him we will find Him because we have a place that we find that is not of this earth.  Psalm 71  1 In you, O LORD, I have taken refuge;        let me never be put to shame. 2 Rescue me and deliver me in your righteousness;        turn your ear to me and save me. 3 Be my rock of refuge,        to which I can always go;        give the command to save me,        for you are my rock and my fortress.   Reply Quote Notify

4597	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Questions	on: July 19, 2009, 01:07:52 PM
This is where Korah and his leaders and followers were God opened the earth and swallowed them up and any remembrance of them... including some of the goats in the assembly. Its a sovereign choice. Num. 16 4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put fire and incense in them before the LORD. The man the LORD chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!"  8 Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn't it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too. 11 It is against the LORD that you and all your followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble against him?" Its interesting that the wicked are not only in the world .. but the goats are classified in the same category as the same as those in the world. They stand with the Devil accusing the saints. Thus you have Christ hatred for the Pharisees... Korah s ruler ship. Psalms 55 12 If an enemy were insulting me,        I could endure it;        if a foe were raising himself against me,        I could hide from him. 13 But it is you, a man like myself,        my companion, my close friend, 14 with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship        as we walked with the throng at the house of God. 15 Let death take my enemies by surprise;     let them go down alive to the grave, (Num 16 33 They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.)       for evil finds lodging among them. 16 But I call to God,        and the LORD saves me. 17 Evening, morning and noon        I cry out in distress,        and he hears my voice. 18 He ransoms me unharmed        from the battle waged against me,        even though many oppose me. Psalm 46 For the director of music. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A song.  1 God is our refuge and strength,        an ever-present help in trouble. 2 Therefore we will not fear, though the earth give way        and the mountains fall into the heart of the sea, 3 though its waters roar and foam        and the mountains quake with their surging.        Selah 4 There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God,        the holy place where the Most High dwells. 5 God is within her, she will not fall;        God will help her at break of day. 6 Nations are in uproar, kingdoms fall;        he lifts his voice, the earth melts. 7 The LORD Almighty is with us;        the God of Jacob is our fortress.        Selah 8 Come and see the works of the LORD,        the desolations he has brought on the earth. 9 He makes wars cease to the ends of the earth;        he breaks the bow and shatters the spear,        he burns the shields  with fire. 10 "Be still, and know that I am God;        I will be exalted among the nations,        I will be exalted in the earth." 11 The LORD Almighty is with us;        the God of Jacob is our fortress.        Selah Gods protection of Israel.... comparing an earth quake to His protection of them by destroying all of their enemies.  Possibly an earth quake for Korah... we do not usually see the correlation of His decrees in this comparative of the world and His church. 4600  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Questions on: July 18, 2009, 04:35:11 PM  I thought this was interesting. He judges by His being a source of renewal to His people... Heb 4 `12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Jesus the Great High Priest  14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens,[e] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Then he goes rite into the institution of human authority...  Heb 5 1Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2He is able to deal gently (i think this is different than sympathize)with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.  4No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. 5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,    "You are my Son;       today I have become your Father.[a]" 6And he says in another place,    "You are a priest forever,       in the order of Melchizedek."[c] This is that same flavor of Christ protection and rule over His church. Ezek...34    20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.  25 " 'I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of wild beasts so that they may live in the desert and sleep in the forests in safety. 26 I will bless them and the places surrounding my hill. [a] I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. 27 The trees of the field will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid. 29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations. How does He do this? through His church... 30 Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Sovereign LORD. 31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' " This is the same kind of transformation He does to His children in an inward sense. Remove Reply Quote Notify 4601  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 17, 2009, 04:25:44 PM Quote from: beacon2 on July 17, 2009, 03:49:31 PM Quote from: Radio Roswell on July 17, 2009, 11:56:58 AM ................................. I made my break organized religion and I'm not enticed in anyway to even consider it..the lack of grace in application is staggering..the manifestation of it's reality that actually changes a heart and changes the mind and changes a person into becoming more like the son and into the bride is the ultimate weapon against this world , flesh and enemy IMO has been compromised into a activity list of "like" minded effort in order to prove or testify of one's commitment is one that I left long ago.. Yeah Jeff, I've felt like you do many, many times before about organized religion or the counterfeit church as I call it.  I share your frustration about how it presents the  gospel (or non gospel)  with God as a task master, but I have come to a peace and rest (of sorts) about this and now concentrate on being very attentive to the Spirit’s leading on how to confront this. Jesus mentioned the "wheat and tares" growing together and Paul spoke of the "son of the slave woman" persecuting the "son of the free woman."  So I’m afraid this is the way it is going to be, and that the counterfeit church will be around till the end of this age. But one thing gives me hope, and that is the fact that we are saved by grace through faith and absolutely nothing else.  And that once a believer is born again of God’s Spirit, nothing will separate that believer from the love of God--nothing! -- even if he/she continues to move within the counterfeit church and listen and buy into the false doctrines that are being propagated there.  We have the Father’s promise that His children would not be deceived. You and I and many others  bought into the lies at one time, but He has brought us out and continues to bring others out into the light of His Truth.  This has  happened in my own immediate family  with one of our sons and his wife finally seeing the Light not too long ago, even though the rest of the family had broken away from the system many years ago.  Answered prayer! Hang in there Jeff!  b2 PS  I define the "counterfeit church" as an organism composed of people whose belief system is contrary to the Word of God and who are not all necessarily found in the visible majority that we see in a building called "church." Now.. the church is our mother... but she has gone a whoring... and you know that Gods glory will shine through because we are not like Him... He knows how to bring in this gospel message when it becomes evident that the church has lost her way. He speaks as a judge over the apostate church. What is an apostate church? They teach the doctrines of man as if they were the doctrines of God.. they believe that the church is actually ok just by its gathering.. and they present their good works from the view that man has his own righteousness. This is a philosophy that men can choose God and in bringing their goodness to salvation they can obey God without a very close examination of His revelation. But God says.. that man is unable to come to Him... man cannot bring one good thing to God... but God must come to man... for who thinks that He can produce one weight of acceptance before God as a sacrifice of praise to Him? That man is going to receive a rebuke ...God will confront Him to His face!!!This is the false religion that damns men in their sins!! God comes and will not be silent... He says... you recite my laws but you prostitute me by your offerings... then He says... what rite have you to recite my laws and take up my covenant on your lips... dont you know that i willed your salvation from eternity... dont you know that it is My salvation? What offering do you have that you can present that will gain my acceptance? All of your works are as filthy rags... you may play that political game with one another ... to up one another.. to point to yourselves as able ... but you thought you were like Me...I hate pride.. bring me your thank offerings.... in other words ... i want you to see yourself as i see you.. as i have exposed to you your own evil hearts... dont come to me with your own goodness... come to me with open hands.. and i will fill them... give me the thankfulness i deserve and quite playing that you are good. Reply Quote Notify 4602  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 17, 2009, 03:34:36 PM Quote from: THOR on July 17, 2009, 01:47:18 PM Quote from: beacon2 on July 17, 2009, 12:51:28 PM I'm a Christian Thor.  I do not follow Calvin  Are you saying salvation is conditional?  Do we have to obey all the rules and regulations found in the bible or we lose our salvation? Couldn't tell from your post. Later.  Gotta run. b2 Salvation has always been conditional in the Bible; unless you are a universialist.  If you don't believe in Christ you aren't saved and if you don't do the things His says (Jesus' words) you aren't saved. God has always wanted faith and obedience to go hand in hand. That is very clear throughout His Word. The New Covenant in Messiah's blood makes that a lot easier because God not only forgives your sin (because of personal faith in Christ) but He writes His Torah on your heart (Hebrew for 'mind' or 'will') and put His Spirit in all believers...so they are 'caused' to obey him.  That doesn't mean we can't disobey; but in means we now have the power to obey through our faith and trust in Christ so there is no excuse to say "i can't obey! I'm a prisoner of sin and the devil. ...but if we sin and confess our sin He will forgive us. I am not a universialist but have faith in the power of God to save men without desciding their fate ahead of time. God can do this because He is a Great and Almighty God. Thor Two line American theology.... just keep it on the surface and let both camps dwell together in unity... after all ... its spreading the gospel thats important.... blah ... blah ... blah... blah ... blah. Down we go. Oh... i can here those  political ulterior motives ... like a fertile psychosomatic plant growth prospering the pharmaceuticals.  Reply Quote Notify 4603  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 17, 2009, 01:06:24 PM Quote from: THOR on July 17, 2009, 12:31:32 PM Quote Jeff, are you saying that unless believers go back to their first love (walking by faith, that is, led by the Spirit) Christ is going to “remove” or take away our witness, in other words, His light that shines through us?  “Lamp stand” is also interpreted as being symbolic of  the light (guidance) we receive from God through His Word and Spirit as in Ps 119:105, “Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path.” (NIV) Either way, the way that the phrase is written:   “Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place.”  is definitely as a conditional proposition, a warning of punishment if you will if believers don't comply.  And this is incompatible with salvation by grace. This confusion exemplifies the error of Calvinism.  In that...The Grace of God that “saves” is not predestination, but it is the sending of God's Son so whosoever believe upon Him will be saved.  When you believe and trust in Christ that results in a supernatural change in you where the Holy Spirit indwells you and your renewed mind causes you to walks after Christ in the same manner you were saved...by  and through faith. ( Colossians 2:6) Faith grows as trust and obeying God. Trusting and obeying God SHOWS your faith; and if your are born again you will obey God because of the power of God that dwells in you ).  If a man says he loves God but hates his brother, then he is a lier and the truth is not in him. ..pretty simple stuff but not so simple for confused by false teachings or if a person is religious but not born again. I can see how a lot of scripture can confuse so many who depend on their special selection to save them and then read the Word where to says they have faith and obey God to be saved. Calvinism says God picks you unconditionally to be saved, so reasoning follows, that obedience or anything else is superfluous to salvation. They believe It doesn't matter if you obey Christ or not; your salvation is sealed. Calvinists may argue that a saved person will want to obey God but they also say you are still a sinner, i.e. an habitual sinner who is still mastered by the flesh and the devil. ....of course that still doesn't help with the question. And the Bible never says any such thing! It's worthy to note that Paul and Peter never address their letters to “sinners”, but to the “saints”, i.e....to the sinners at Galatia or to the sinners at Collossi, etc. Why? Because those that are born again are New creations and they no long follow the lusts of the flesh or allow the flesh to be their master. If they do then they do not belong to Christ Romans 8:5-8 (King James Version)  5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.  6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.  7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.  8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. If your sinful nature has not been crucified then you will continue to do the works of the flesh which Paul outlines: Gal 5: 19-26 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, [1] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. Conclusion: No one is predestined to be saved thereby absolving them from obedience and living a Holy (separate from the world) life.  God does give you power to live holy and does predestine those who are saved (by personally believing in Christ) to be conformed to the image of Christ and to the plan which He has for you life. As you walk in faith and obedience God unfolds your pathway to you. You can deselected yourself from salvation (because it's a pathway) by unbelief and an unrepentant life of “in your face God” sin.  Hebrews 12:25  Luke 7:21-23: 21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" 23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." ...and that is why you see such passages throughout Scripture. Listen to Jesus and scripture and not to some late medieval dead guy who thinks the 4th century church father was the 13th Apostle. Thor What is this? big bang Christianity? Uh... never seen anything accomplished without a will. Salvation is in  God alone.... we are passive in the reception....  Reply Quote Notify 4604  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 17, 2009, 12:10:44 PM Quote from: beacon2 on July 17, 2009, 12:01:35 PM Jeff, Willis, and MBG, What do you consider effective Christian witnessing to nonbelievers or other believers for that matter? Specifically, what does effective witnessing  look like, is like, with the understanding that a "Christian" -- child of God -- is a believer who is indwelt and led by the Holy Spirit? And if we as children of God  (by each others' estimation) are not effectively witnessing, do we then make a "laundry list" of do's and don'ts and shoulds and musts to follow?  And this brings us back to the original theme of this thread, huh?  b2 I dont think that all of these personal discipleship qualities are flushed out in our lives on a performance motif. We need to look at this in a whole counsel way... the bible is very realistic and holistic in how it approaches each saint. The problem in discipleship programs is that we always get the cart before the horse... or we make comparisons about motives that have a different color than what is in the completed cannon. Its like a ping pong battle in the game of its all about God... or its all about us... Christ says i came in the spirit of joy and they partied and you wouldnt take part in that.... John came with a heavy message...very serious and you did not follow that... so most of the problems in this area are that we have people who do not know what the new testament model is in this whole counsel motive driven design... i would only say ... unless you get to the motive.. you will only repeat what has already failed.  Reply Quote Notify 4605  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 17, 2009, 11:05:02 AM This is the same kind of exhortation as a warning to not let your heart be hardened by sins deceitfulness. It doesnt mean that finding our first love is eliminating sin.. or getting to a point where we are all confessed up on our sins... this isnt a moral persuasion in order for us to resist sin on our own... since a christian can fall into many sins and by appearance look like the world. And another christian can look like a true saint iin avoiding sin and yet not really looking to Christ as his only Savior. My contention is that this self righteousness is easy to fall into in this day and age because of the false views that are taught about what a saint looks like when he is struggling with sin. The majority of men practice some form of religion. All men have a tendency to be led along by the nominal appearance of a form of religious zeal. I do not think that you can say that being a zealot for Christ is necessarily being a balanced christian. In a sense we are looking at these approaches to how we view a zealous disciple and the difference in a religious self righteous person. In seeing these things and how they affect our understanding of Christ as the cause of our being delivered from sin and being declared righteous this is not an easy examination in measuring in an absolute sense. This is why any kind of measurement must have the teaching as the caboose that pulls the train...In His light we see light. As you know ... light shines in many different effervescence... (is that a proper use of that word?) This is why Christ spoke in a language that was inflammatory in a sense... and yet it was parabolic in a another sense...on the one hand He hid if from the self righteous and on the other hand His teaching was like a light that only showed the way at what ever level His disciple was at. Paul states a doctrine and then He says.. that if any do not accept this teaching ... he was confident that God would reveal it to them.... And so His true disciples are taught how impossible the standard is so that in a sense we are drawn into a zeal that we do not fully comprehend. Sometimes we leave things in this life behind us because we do not fully comprehend how important it is in having the power that he gives unless it is preceded by the desperation to find HIm at all cost...not as a " heavy burden" but a zeal that is stouthearted ...a real sinner declaring the goodness of God in the kings face.... we cannot do everything in this life. I think you are beginning to see how wide that the paradigm looks in different saints.  I mean these dis positional qualities applied to this love in comparison to the narrative in the gospels. 4606  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 16, 2009, 12:03:24 PM Quote from: Radio Roswell on July 15, 2009, 11:35:05 PM right beacon..the last two verses you quoted from Galatians..speak volumes.. The reason I see that Jesus puts this "removal " of the "lampstand" in context as to doing the first deeds as there by receiving the same way as walking IN..is because it testifies of his grace...and unconditional love... the lampstand is the light to the world and testimony of his witness operating through our broken vessels.. forgetting and or leaving "first love" in this manner" removes "the lampstand..because He's not being testified and or seen exhibited..etc in it's supernatural light of the priority of this extremely important attribute of his indentity that only He can truely manifest.. thats the kind of light he desires..to distribute..to this world..and each other and oursleves.. thoughts? peace jeff Is there any christian institution that has persevered from one generation to another so that we can look at that church and say they never left their first love? We must not think that if we are faithless that He will not remain faithful. If Christ has taken away the lamp stand then the church has apostatized. Paul says that if anyone preaches another gospel other than the one you received let him be accursed... or let death take them by surprise... When the church apostatizes .. it actually departs from the faith... there is a process that leads to apostasy. First the church departs from sound doctrine... and it usually begins with a departure from teaching the proper understanding about judgment. Now this exhortation to remain in the first things... which is almost the same kind of exhortation as in Galatians... are you now trying to work these things out in the flesh? When we talk about the Spirit ... then we must also focus on the word... because the Spirit and the word are inseparable. John is saying that the beginning of a fellowship will determine the life of the church. The understanding of the original purpose will determine the direction a church takes... its almost like the process of pouring concrete... you take all the ingredients and then  at the start of the process you put the water in and then the concrete sets and you cant go back and make it soft enough to put another ingredient in ... its already hardened. It is very easy to seal the fate of a church in the early decisions that are made... Evidently this church was originally started with the right doctrine and practice... and they had began to wander from this focus. There are so many practical problems that can arise from a church departing from that original confession. I could describe it to you but it could get ugly. Not anything personal ... just what the scripture says....  This is not for the faint of heart.    Reply Quote Notify 4607  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: July 15, 2009, 02:56:01 PM This is terribly difficult to understand when we are talking about these different invisible paradigms... first because were do we find the mysterious connections to gain an understanding of the balance between being sinners.. having our needs met... being human... and knowing what God is saying to us as we hear from Him from other people or when we are listening as we remain silent before Him. I think we are quick to judge and less able to find an answer that is not quickly produced in a principle or a preaching series. This is very radical because we are creatures of habit... we are creatures of peer review and we are seeking answers that are old. Most of the time we are lacking the awareness to understand the nature of our particular anxiety.. or problem... The truth is that we actually think we can improve someone to the point where they will obey our particular brand of religion... we really believe that its a matter of producing a heavy handed sermon with lots of illustrations. Look ...if the idea of redemption came in what we see.. hear... feel on a human level then people would be able to carry on in these ulterior motives with what they want to do even tho they are finding a certain level of security in their brand of the system. That is ... there is very little change in this life and there is more settled retreating into old habits... sins... sorrows.. and pains than all of the cheer leader attempts to hold a change for any period of time. This is a life of extreme difficulty ... real underlying desperation and deep seated difficulties in understanding where someone is at. If we do not find that there is this reality that is in the silent groans.. and moment flickers of want in how we can gain an entrance into the divine appointment after much prayer and struggle... then all of this will just be like an institutional exercise of authority. Reply Quote Notify 4608  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster. on: July 15, 2009, 11:00:33 AM Why would God encourage a person to reason together if Gods ways are not mans ways? Obviously if it were in Gods ability and mans ability to come to a compromise then we could find some purpose in offering to Him some kind of self knowledge. I mean... what would be the difference between us saying that there are many roads to God and saying that we have have an understanding of truth outside the revealed understanding of that truth? And if we define any kind of ability in our own understanding ... then isnt that the same thing as saying that we have a knowledge that we can argue from our own ability that brings us into favor with God? This goes rite to the heart of the problem with teaching things that do not really have any relation to inability and irresistible grace!! What we are dealing with is holding on to the same weight of ability as those who say there are many ways to God. Reply Quote Notify 4609  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 15, 2009, 09:39:01 AM Quote from: Radio Roswell on July 14, 2009, 09:59:19 PM so what do you think? Faith without works..now explained right here..?? Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, NAS COL 2:6   give it your best shot..something is so glaring about this concept....think about what we talked about to the Ephesian letter.. therefore remember for where you have fallen repent and do the deeds you did at first.. or I'm coming to REMOVE your lampstand...interesting.. I do not think that man as he stands before Gods law is trying to obey it in the sense that he understands his need for God. Man does things for the purpose that is ultimately for his own goodness. In this way every man in himself stands before God as equally deserving of death. Ok.... your going to not like this next statement... but it is what is necessary as is limited atonement. Because if man can argue himself to deserve salvation then he is responsible for the goodness that is accepted as being equal with the only good Man. When every we present the notion that mans ability in some way brings him into favor with God we are subtracting the glory from Christ. This is why we believe that any one who comes to a saving knowledge of Christ was chosen over the reprobate before the foundation of the world... and if God passes over men then ...it is Gods rite to determine their eternal destruction since all men stand before God as equally guilty.... this is equal opportunity ordination. If the Father rewarded mans effort then He would need to apologize to His Son...this i think is the nexus in understanding the level of a watered down gospel. There is a spirit in religion in today's churches that desires unity on non essentials... the history of missions and the prior generations in this country have included double predestination in the list of these non essentials. Now... i am not talking about the liberal theologians... i am talking about the main line protestant churches... the supposed reformed... conservative theologians.  There is no way that you can preach the true gospel as a message of grace in lite of regeneration preceding faith without the buttress of double predestination as a foundation. If we are to believe that the gospel is in the solas then in order for us to find that rest in Christ we must not offer any contingent paradigms to man. The gospel is absolutely necessary because there is no weight of ability on mans side of the scale... its completely empty.  The moment man is put in the light of ability prior to salvation and after salvation having grace earned by works is the moment that the gospel ceases to be the pure gospel... or the full message. Here i think is the problem... i mean ... with this confusion... now i am not really dealing here with the four pointers or the other side... but there are scripture verses that talk about mans being rewarded for his good works....and there are a few verses that seem to say that mans works alone are acceptable to God... but there is a mountain of verses that talk about a man being justified before God without any relation to mans ability or works. Now in order to be consistent the reformers saw this and you will find that they followed the spirit of the context in finding the answer to this seeming contradiction in the doctrine of justification by faith. We compare scripture with scripture in lite of the entire context of the whole counsel. This has been done in the past by the process of exegetical studies in lite of finding the consistent meaning so that the spirit of the meaning would control the practice of the saints. In other words the doctrine as understood in this confessional way... its being the dogma of the doctrines of grace that would define the spirit of love that is to be seen ... would be the answer to all of the maladies of the soul. It is bringing men before God and having a sense of the glory of God in the meaning that changes the heart of man... the doctrine is the medicine... not any other goodness in this universe. Not any other argument for or against man. We are just replaying these different departures that have been seen in the past history... no man can truly understand the nature of mysticism and knowledge in that fine line without understanding the doctrines of grace....because the doctrines define the reality of the image in all of life.      Reply Quote Notify 4610  Forums / Politics Forum / Re: Is the economy getting WORSE? on: July 14, 2009, 11:07:13 PM http://www.trinity.edu/rjensen/2008Bailout.htm Reply Quote Notify 4611  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan knows what we think? on: July 14, 2009, 03:09:59 PM The King has a rule that is all over this universe... the earth is His footstool... now Satan sinned because he wanted to be like god... the expression of a foreign goodness. For Christ said that there was no one good but  God. Declaring Himself worthy of praise as the expression of hating pride. Men who worship... worship the god who they think is God. This is why it is so easy to present what is required in lite of mans own goodness and pride. God doesnt want mans sacrifices....He declares that there is no one good ... no not one... in the ot they were offering sacrifices ... but their hearts were evil... and this was a very simple problem... they were making another god... because they did not acknowledge God as not needing their own goodness... and it was done because they did not acknowledge that God was absolutely sovereign over all things and that He deserved to be honored and worshiped as this God. So God says to them... you know you guys recite my laws and you dont even understand that its my control over all things that gives you the understanding of my righteous standard... you are presenting your own goodness to me in these sacrifices and they are a stench in my nostrils.. dont you know that its a minor thing... its nothing to me... dont you know that i own all of these cattle? instead of thinking that you are good... give me the glory and thanks that i deserve!! I provide everything you eat in fact... your profit doesnt even bring you these things!! Man is forever bringing God down by what comes out of his mouth about his own power and goodness!!! Man is guilty of bringing God down... to make it comfortable for man to practice his self righteousness. This is why Satan is the father of those who stand in their own pride. God is not mocked!!! Reply Quote Notify 4612  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan knows what we think? on: July 14, 2009, 02:05:47 PM If you look in Hebrews Christ work on the cross and His ascension to the rite hand of God is having all things put under His feet. But at the same time there is nothing that transpires in this world prior to the incarnation that has been a real adversity to Gods rule... for as it is a constant reminder in the book of Hebrews ... i mean... the cause of all of this history starting from Gen. to Revel... is a history of God working His will out in the choices of man... God actually decrees the choices of man in order to bring to fruition the actual rule of Christ over all things. That is the phrase for Him and through Him are all things... and God is the builder of everything... not just the house of Israel. This is why Christ said that the kingdom of God is within you. That is... Christ kingdom is an invisible kingdom... or He has order all things for His glory from before the creation of the world. Where ever He wills.... men will. He works for the good of those who love Him or He works in us to will and do. But since He pronounced at the cross... He said ... it is finished.. yet we do not see everything under His feet as of yet... but there is nothing that He does not bring into subjection that does not go through Him... for again ... the author reminds us that everything is for Him and through Him... and so we have our only hope of His rule when we are in Him. The reality we live in is resting in His work.. or trusting in His word... looking to Him as the answer to our present struggle... by the word and Spirit through prayer... we actually are illuminated that we have the perfect man who we are going to be like.. we are becoming like Him.... this is how we persevere until He actually renews all things by fire .... when we will be present in the new heavens and new earth... this is our next hope... it is finished. Reply Quote Notify 4613  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Questions on: July 14, 2009, 12:41:35 PM Joshua 3 7 And the LORD said to Joshua, "Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses. 8 Tell the priests who carry the ark of the covenant: 'When you reach the edge of the Jordan's waters, go and stand in the river.' " Now this is an interesting narrative where God parts the Jordan Joshua 1 3 I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. Now this is the promise.... This is the way of God by faith... he gives according to His leading.. or we walk by faith and He gives more grace... the way of the use of means... the walking is in the use of the means of faith... or its by meditation and prayer... because this is not mans way... they trust in their own power and think that they have achieved success by their own power. now here they are crossing the Jordan....Joshua 3 13 And as soon as the priests who carry the ark of the LORD -the Lord of all the earth—set foot in the Jordan, its waters flowing downstream will be cut off and stand up in a heap." The priest  actually take the ark on their shoulders and stand in the shallow waters of the Jordan... this here is the high priestly paradigm.... and it is that by which Christ defeated Satan who rules this world... as you look the world is a rough ocean ... these are the troubles for the saint... i think that we have access to the very throne room of God... we in essence have these same supernatural abilities when we persevere in the faith.. we do not trust in our own horses ... we are looking to see God display His power in the way of faith.  Prayer is like stepping into the waters. Is it possible for the saint to go into the waters in his own self righteousness ? Yes... i mean its possible for us to experience the waters that come up to our heads. The world is a very rough ocean... we are in the way of the world even tho we walk by faith and these waters and how they engulf us are the scorn we experience by living in these troubles. But we must not trust in our own power... we do not escape by walking out of the waters ... we escape by God parting the waters in front of us as we claim the promises.. we take captive all of these terrible paradigms of being under some kind of illusion to our own abilities. Now look here is how God displays his power.... Joshua 3 7 And the LORD said to Joshua, "Today I will begin to exalt you in the eyes of all Israel, so they may know that I am with you as I was with Moses. 8 Tell the priests who carry the ark of the covenant: 'When you reach the edge of the Jordan's waters, go and stand in the river.' " Now God is going to do things for the Israelite s that they will remember...This is the way of prayer... its drawn out of confidence in God alone.... we wait in prayer with this kind of confidence... today.... is going to be the day that God displays His  power... this is our faith... we walk not by sight... not by the vision of the waters... the impossible task of walking across this world with the potential to be engulfed in its scorn and accusations.... with the potential to lose heart and fall into sorrow that will destroy our faith. When we set our feet into this world we wait on God in expectation.  He is going to remove the waters so that we can walk in His rest... then the world will fear God. Look at this... 14 So when the people broke camp to cross the Jordan, the priests carrying the ark of the covenant went ahead of them. 15 Now the Jordan is at flood stage all during harvest. Yet as soon as the priests who carried the ark reached the Jordan and their feet touched the water's edge, 16 the water from upstream stopped flowing. We only have His promise to hold onto... His word is all we have... This is why we live by faith... we walk by faith... He promises to go before us and make level paths for our feet... then we will look back and say it was by His hand alone... not even our prayers were able to part the waters... but we walk in the hope... the eternal hope in the faithfulness of God that what He says as we face these evil circumstances is what He will perform before our very eyes... we wait for Him to show us His love in the morning... we want to see it before our eyes... this removing the problem.. that is His stopping the flow of the world to engulf us.  He promises to remove the scorn... that is the present danger.17 The priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the middle of the Jordan, while all Israel passed by until the whole nation had completed the crossing on dry ground. I think we have a number of these conversions in our lives... where we look back and we see the salvation of our God!!  We actually go from the danger of crossing the Jordan... to standing on the other side and placing a stake of a new conversion in our walk by that faith.... a place to remember for the next trial by the scorn and accusations of the world. God tells us that this is what we will face.. He leads us into pray in our walking into the waters... then we walk by faith accross... there is many trials that we see on both sides... it gets above our heads as we get to the middle... yet they do not touch us... then we get to the other side... God again is heard loud and clear... He speaks salvation to us.. and to those who would harm us. 15 and said to them, "Go over before the ark of the LORD your God into the middle of the Jordan. Each of you is to take up a stone on his shoulder, according to the number of the tribes of the Israelites, This is the way of faith... we have reminders.. not in the stones... but in the salvation of God alone... we actually find all of our comfort in these conversions... the great assurance of Gods new power displayed in our experiencing a greater reminder of His great power... this is waiting in confidence on Him to act ... waiting for Him to speak salvation... a deliverance... a way to produce in us to go again to Him.. to persist in going to Him for a greater understanding of that power.... Joshua 5 1 Now when all the Amorite kings west of the Jordan and all the Canaanite kings along the coast heard how the LORD had dried up the Jordan before the Israelites until we had crossed over, their hearts melted and they no longer had the courage to face the Israelites.Now look what happens... the world looks at what God did and they are afraid... now this is not just a moral persuasion here... this is Gods communication to the abuser.. .the reprobate.... this is Gods putting all things under His feet... this is Gods power to bring men into under the power of His salvation on behalf of His own!!! Men are put into the proper fear of God in order for God to display His salvation to His elect that are in the world!!! Both those who are His own and those who are being saved/!!!! Remove Reply Quote Notify 4614  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Satan knows what we think? on: July 13, 2009, 04:27:26 PM Quote from: learning to lean on July 13, 2009, 04:25:22 PM Jim, Jesus did not fail at anything.  It was the plan of God from the start to create a people that He could redeem to Himself.  This is the only way that man can have a relationship with God.  God cannot cease to be God, but man can have godlyness imputed to him.  Remember that God and man are at emnity with one another.  Regeneration, Propitiation, and Imputation are all nessisary.  None of which we can provide for our self.  Within the time frame that we are in we see that Jesus has not yet claimed the throne of David.  This throne is to be occupied forever.  Wow thanks for the encouragement... very.. very well put... Reply Quote Notify 4615  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 13, 2009, 03:48:56 PM Quote from: Great2bHIS on July 12, 2009, 07:35:19 PM Quote I wonder how each of you here defines grace ... as limitless or with limitations?  As only for some?  are nonbeliers under grace ?  As something we can get by participating in a ceremony? Just wondering ..... b2 Thanks Beacon and in a round-a-bout way that's what I was driving at.  When Jeff said they dwelled in His grace in the garden...bells went off. One day we will dwell in His FULLNESS--not just a copy or image of Him as was the garden.  We will dwell IN Grace. He IS Grace & Jesus is the manifestation or Grace in the flesh. I think we look at grace as something given (which it is), just like faith, wisdom, truth, promise...etc.  We see those words as a "verb", what I'm saying is I see them also as a NOUN.  I AM and then Jesus is the verb, the action, the manifestation of WHO God is. I can take quite a few verses and replace those words with HIS name and they still ring true.  I haven't done it with all of them, but quite a few. For is is by grace God/Jesus you have been saved, through faith God/Jesus- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- Not by works, so that no one can boast. So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace God/Jesus.  And if by grace God/Jesus, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace God/Jesus would no longer be grace God/Jesus. I began to see this a year or two ago while having a conversation with Joker about Wisdom. And then I studied Proverbs 8 about "Wisdom's Appeal" and could clearly see Jesus in almost every word. Counsel and sound judgement are mine.... I love those who love me and those who seek me find me... With me are riches and honor... my fruit is better than fine gold... I walk along the way of righteousness, along the paths of justice.. The Lord possesed me at the beginning of his work.. I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began... I was there when He set the heavens in place,... I was the craftsman at his side... I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind... Now then, my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways... Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors waiting at my doorway... What really spoke Jesus IS Wisdom to me was the last verse of Proverbs 8- For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord.  36 But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death. Proverbs 9:Wisdom has built her house; she has hewn out it's seven pillars....(same description as in Revelation 21) So more and more I grow in the knowledge that He IS or as He called Himself- I AM I AM Love I AM Grace I AM Truth I AM the Promise (Word) I AM Faith I AM Wisdom I AM Honor I AM Glory I AM Peace I AM Rest I AM Joy I AM Hope ....and the list goes on! Since we have HIM in us---we are His body--we then can give it, be that action.  Jesus working in us. And someday we will dwell IN Him--in those things. So to answer your question the short way--- YEP, I do believe Grace is LIMITLESS!   Let me say something about this proverbs passage on wisdom....i had memorized this book a number of yrs ago... and if you meditate on this book... i think you will find a correlation between a woman and the pleasure of love... with wisdom and the pleasure of God... for some reason... since this wisdom comes in that illumination of the Holy Spirit there is a glory in entering its house...and God has done everything in this time universe for His glory and pleasure... i think this is separate from any other human idea that is introduced because this wisdom is eternal... it is beyond this earth. There is a spiritual nature that becomes more of a dominate power as we exhaust our minds with the contemplation of His wisdom... these proverbs... i have always said that a man who uses this book like a manual does not understand the paradigm of this love relationship with God. I mean that this book would lead you to give up everything in order to have this precious infusion of life from meditation on this eternal wisdom...this i think is the main focus of this book.. the fleeting pleasures of this world as opposed to the eternal pleasures in this book. Reply Quote Notify 4616  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List on: July 13, 2009, 03:27:20 PM Quote from: danwoodlynne on July 13, 2009, 07:33:35 AM I was really inquiring in jest beacon, you had asked some pretty deep questions to ponder and I added two more biggies, referring to the "U" and "L" in Calvin's TULIP which will forever bring forth discussion  Exodus 20  4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. This is the same thing the apostle talks about when he says "If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! " and in Hebrews it says that  "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did;" ....that is this law ... grace... here in Jeremiah 11 3Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant- 4 the terms I commanded your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt... this is "punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," ... In other words in the covenant of grace is freedom from those curses of the law. " 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments." The OT is a narrative of describing these two different relationships the difference with the remnant and the national people.... its not just a matter of threatening ...Gods actions are anthropomorphic ...look at this Heb... God says... 11So I declared on oath in my anger,       'They shall never enter my rest. Now this is according to the decree of God...Here again it is in comparison to promise those who have believed...Heb 4. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,    "So I declared on oath in my anger,    'They shall never enter my rest.' In other words if Gods promise is to be trusted then nothing is left for chance. That is you who know the promise of His rest know it to be true by His decree to those who do not have that promise.  He uses the negative decree to prove His faithfulness... if this is not true that He was pointing to the sure decree then He would have said... i promised you that you would enter my rest rather than "So I declared on oath in my anger". Man is unable to come to God on his own. Heres a description of that cursed relationship... Jer 11 14 "Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress. 15 "What is my beloved doing in my temple        as she works out her evil schemes with many?        Can consecrated meat avert your punishment ?        When you engage in your wickedness,        then you rejoice.  "16 The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form.        But with the roar of a mighty storm        he will set it on fire,        and its branches will be broken.  17 The LORD Almighty, who planted you, has decreed disaster for you, because the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done evil and provoked me to anger by burning incense to Baal. Reply Quote Notify 4617  Forums / Main Forum / Re: Questions on: July 13, 2009, 02:29:30 PM Exodus 20  4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. This is the same thing the apostle talks about when he says "If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! " and in Hebrews it says that  "For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did;" ....that is this law ... grace... here in Jeremiah 11 3Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant- 4 the terms I commanded your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt... this is "punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me," ... In other words in the covenant of grace is freedom from those curses of the law. " 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments." The OT is a narrative of describing these two different relationships the difference with the remnant and the national people.... its not just a matter of threatening ...Gods actions are anthropomorphic ...look at this Heb... God says... 11So I declared on oath in my anger,       'They shall never enter my rest. Now this is according to the decree of God...Here again it is in comparison to promise those who have believed...Heb 4. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,    "So I declared on oath in my anger,    'They shall never enter my rest.' In other words if Gods promise is to be trusted then nothing is left for chance. That is you who know the promise of His rest know it to be true by His decree to those who do not have that promise.  He uses the negative decree to prove His faithfulness... if this is not true that He was pointing to the sure decree then He would have said... i promised you that you would enter my rest rather than "So I declared on oath in my anger". Man is unable to come to God on his own. Heres a description of that cursed relationship... Jer 11 14 "Do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them, because I will not listen when they call to me in the time of their distress. 15 "What is my beloved doing in my temple        as she works out her evil schemes with many?        Can consecrated meat avert your punishment ?        When you engage in your wickedness,        then you rejoice.  "16 The LORD called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form.        But with the roar of a mighty storm        he will set it on fire,        and its branches will be broken.  17 The LORD Almighty, who planted you, has decreed disaster for you, because the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done evil and provoked me to anger by burning incense to Baal.