Well at the beginning its like a honey moon
because we experience a freedom from the slavery of the law.. its
actually the power of God that releases us from the power of the law and
the enslavement of sin. Spurgeon used to say ... it was like a feeling
that He had been cleaned out ... even from the deepest recesses of all
of him. Then he would get to another day and then find that same
paradigm with him... it was actually the Holy Spirit .... it was an
assurance to him. But then it becomes somewhat like before we
were saved... i mean the initial struggle with sin... we have this zeal
for the glory of God... and then we give into sin.. so we begin
experience a struggle that has its own communication to us...so that
the way we approach this fight is according to how we taught ourselves
to fight in the flesh before we were saved. This is why i think that
this paradigm is multi faceted. Some of us were extremely motivated to
excellence. So then the struggle is defined in a kind of self
discipline, a rigid regiment of self denial. And i might say.. that the
kind of initial experience and the depth at which it effects a spiritual
understanding is also according to the Spirit... we all are have very
different experiences as we walk down the path He has designed for all
of us. There there are some people who deal with this struggle in a
very emotional way... they react to it with the feelings of guilt and
shame.. they fall into a kind of lethargic melancholy and then they work
extra hard to gain the initial assurance through peace. Then there
are some people who are so focused on people and loving the brethren
that they never seek to find this assurance of the Spirit and the
sweetness of the love of God. Every thing is focused on how they love
everyone else and they live in a kind of man pleasing way. And then
there are so many other ways that a man will search... for that first
love. But these kinds of experiences can be experienced in ones life as
he searches in feeling comfortable in falling back to the patterns of
the bondage of the law... because all of us find a place of comfort so
that if it doesnt feel like the same experience we had at the beginning
then we do not believe it is a real assurance. We get duped by the
simplicity of the gospel... for some reason Christ is the last one that
gets our focus. The word to us.. the illumination to us is usually not
what we experience as an image paradigm but its in order for us to find a
new method for success in our christian lives. If Jesus promises to
fellowship with us.. i mean.. if we seek Him and then we either get
tired.. or we do not know how we ought to search for Him so we lose
interest cause its not like a relationship where we can see that person.
And it seems that we are always struggling to believe that He is all we
need ... i mean... if we know there is someone who can make everything
right and He works everything out for our good... but then we really
dont believe that if we knew Him ... i mean... if we were around Him
that we would have something special all the time... we would have a
special love.. a special peace.. and we would have a confidence that
would be from someone who shows us just how far He has gone for us.. i
mean we could not exhaust His interest in how He has determined to love
us. Ok ... i hope you see the difference.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 10, 2009, 01:38:26 PM
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Thanks
beacon...and yes...I do see change here and there..it's always small
and personal like it should be..not a movement...it goes way yo the core
issues of the gospel too.. When I first came to a revelation of
this gospel in the person of Jesus Chirst himself..I had nothing..I mean
absolutley nothing to offer....no effort no qualifications..I did have a
certain amount of gifts and skills already naturally embedded..but they
were not to be indentified with at first...does that make sense?? it's
werid to describe.. and took many years to notice...and still processing the understanding of this posistioning in Him.. I
get the marrigae of the bride groom and all that...but this is not what
this siabout..My marriage to my wife resembles a mere fraction and
turst me when I say I am the weakest link in this..He's not there's a power in our weakness that is manifested in grace through Him that we've yet to touch on fully. that's where I wished to go.. 
I
often ask myself why have we in this religious environment substituted
the shadows for the real thing? And maybe its because we are not
convinced that God has made a way that is seen in how we worship
according to our love for Him as real sinners!! Oh we are so un flexible
in these designs that the world has created for how we are to live...
we truly do have different rooms that we put things in. And we think
that its our ability to be successful in lite of this environment that
we get our most cherished joy!!Now we hide this cause we do not believe
that God has already uncovered all of the connections in our hearts ...
the weight and return of the good rewards we find... our hearts are
turned away from the most profound understanding of the highest
experiences we could have on this earth.... He has brought us low in His
giving us what we want!! But we are only going to grieve over a
life that He has brought many temptations to us. And yet... Christ has
already gone before us... He has already conquered the power of sin...
of the love of this world.. of the powers of death that haunt in the
places of hardness that we have entertained. We must be sinners before
Him in our worship...not acting as if we have not had eyes full of
adultery.. full of the want of things... full of a life of putting these
things in different rooms. We come before Him and we worship Him
because we are in such a low estate!!! We find our climb in His
greatness!!!
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4625
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 10, 2009, 01:02:37 PM
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I
thought the "Freedom" we have under grace was a freedom from the power
and bondage of sin, not the freedom to do what-ever our old man nature
darn well pleases and then tout "It's ok I'm saved"
There
are several things to address in your quote above danwood, but let me
ask you a question first, what do you think will happen to you if you
"do what-ever our old man nature darn well pleases" as you put it? b2
Beacon... Good
point, and honestly, I have never heard of anyone who truly understands
grace just going off and doing whatever the old nature pleases. A
statement like that smacks of a misguided notion that somehow the flesh
is going to be sanctified. Never, in a million years of praying, or
abstaining, or self styled, guilt induced, self mutilation (I.E. gouging
out of one's own eyes) will this happen. What would be the point? If
there was anything we could do, didn't then Christ die in vain? I
think the problem really is that most of us can control our outward
behaviors for the eyes of others, and by doing so appear "Oh so Holy."
All the while cheating on our taxes, kicking our dog, sneaking porn, or
smoking dope when no one is looking. Here's the elephant in the
room that no one will look at let alone talk about: As long as we are
forced to adhere to some outward set of rules or regulations or
expectations of behavior, our sin will stay in the closet, in the dark.
If we can not bring these things out into the light, we can never rid
ourselves of them. The average religious person would rather
hold to this self deception than to be honest with others, or more
importantly themselves. Because deep inside, if we are honest, we all
know we have those pet sins we keep under the stairs. Lust, greed,
lying, whatever. As long as they stay under the stairs, they
stay strong and healthy, but, brought into the light of God's grace,
they wither and die under the weight of the truth that God loves us
anyway, just the way we are. Willfully sinning or not....
I
under stand your zeal Mx.. but whatever sin that we have practiced is a
means to find grace... for God loves a sinner who acknowledges His mercy
and grace as the only means for finding relief...its not just in the
acknowledging.... i mean that we can acknowledge sin and it doesnt mean
anything in the end.... because sin is never the reason that we are
forced to act as a way to find remedy in any resistance on our part.We
can use all of the means that in a resistant way ... i mean ... we could
be the most honest joe on this earth... confess every sin... expose
ourselves to every saint... but that will not end our frustration with
dealing with sin... because sin is always present when we want to do
good... but we sin anyway... and if we sin when we do not want to sin
there is no want that is good enough to overcome sin... its really not
in the people or the measure of the want... its strictly in His teaching
us to find our way by His love alone!!! We say its not about us..
its about the process of fighting with sin... we give no limits to our
doing something ... because after all did not our Lord say... go ahead
an cut your hand off?? But we say wow... now that is extreme... and then
we are like a circus performer.. we do everything we can to avoid
sin... but it still comes from our inside. Oh this is such a desperate
life!! Even when we believe we say that we are greatly afflicted... Now
what are we going to do? Well we have so many outlets... its about
us... cutting off our hands is about us.. its not self mutilation in the
worlds eyes.. its not practicing a level of transparency... its not
becoming a monk... its finding all of our relief in Him... we seek
Him... we find Him... we are lead down the road of seeing His life and
death as our only hope... we are going along a road of hearing HIm speak
peace.. giving us supernatural power... drawing us away from this
world. The way that we do this is going to Him with all of our sins...
being before our Father that has uncovered everything and then He has
told us that we have a high priest who is going to heal us in our
problem with sin... He draws us in by identity... a new identity... we
are old sinners who are troubled by our sins.... we are looking for
acceptance...we are searching for grace... undeserved favor....and in
this since we are standing before all men who have every rite to look
and say... look at this guy here.. look at his sin here... Jesus says...
no ... look at what i did for him. May we learn that in being low we
are most blessed.
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4627
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Forums / Break Room / Re: The Perfect Marriage
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on: July 08, 2009, 10:47:14 PM
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http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=629091955241 This is a great sermon for marriage!!!
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4630
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Forums / Break Room / Re: The Perfect Marriage
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on: July 08, 2009, 03:38:57 PM
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Help me if you would please
In your own humble opinion, give me your idea of the perfect marriage,
What would the perfect husband or perfect wife look or act like?
Ok...
we need you to describe how you have a marriage that everyone will look
up to. Not asking for anything personal just like something.. your wife
would not get upset about.... are you a man?
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4631
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 08, 2009, 03:11:56 PM
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Jumping in late without reading all the posts, extend your scepter and I will continue...
Very
well, for me to fully understand the significance of a laundry list I
must have something to compare it too, an earthly example that I can
utilize. An example that comes to mind is that of laundry list of how a
spouse should react to the one they committed their lives to.
Luke warmness:
Sure no marriage continues as sizzling hot as the first year, but
should it ever get to the point where you take one another for granted?
Or become just causal friends? Taking separate vacations or having
discussions/arguments only on the big issues of life?
First-love departure:
No I don't always hold the door for my spouse, rarely open the car
door, write love notes or go on many dates, but has she been replaced as
first importance in my life? (after God of course) Has overtime, boys
night, sports activities or attending to the children s needs taken
presidency over her?
Not spreading the gospel enough/Want to be a better witness: The bible says " I am not ashamed of the gospel ..."
How
many people take the opportunity to "flirt" with the opposite sex? That
can come about in many ways especially subtle ones. How do we speak of
our spouses? Do we speak well? or are all who listen to us only a means
of "dumping" our frustrations?
Lift up that spouse, speak well and
often of them, proclaim "for I am not ashamed of my spouse, for it is
the power of God for the happiness to everyone who believes..."
Is you fire not “on” as you’ think it should be:
Are you not being the husband/wife as you think you should be? Are you
off your matrimonial game? If you say you love your spouse, and you do,
are you taking too much sick time or vacation time apart from them?
Not in the Bible as often as you should be or my personal favorite..Not in the word every day like you ought?:
Do you talk to your spouse as often as you should? Do you offer your
help each day as you ought? Or do you reserve all your attention to them
for one hour on Sundays only?
How much different is our
relationship with our spouse to our relationship with Jesus? Should we
be loving, caring, sharing, talking to a created thing more than the one
we were created for?
I understand whether or not I follow this
"laundry list" I will still be both married to my spouse and a redeemed
child of God, I don't see any burden in following the laundry list to
either one I committed my life to, in fact I do it in joyfully, for I am
humbly grateful, not grumble hateful.
After doing this
laundry list here for yrs .. and i dont want to tell you of my personal
assessment about this... cause well... ... i learned that its just
better to be quiet and listen ... it usually comes across better because
the oughts are a normal way of communicating in marriage... thank God
He identifies with us as a matter of unity and that He transcends them.
Its just getting on the same page.. if there is one. hehe
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4634
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Galations 2:20
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on: July 08, 2009, 09:24:45 AM
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Wow
now thats interesting....Gods got us here to plug every body into
witnessing.... uh ... weve had more evangelist in this country in the
last 20 yrs than any country that ever existed... i am sure there is
more to it than this... ive heard this since i was a child... i know ..
the reformers had it wrong. Heard that one too... same old same old.
mbg,
I
didn't grow up "in church". Witnessing? I've heard of it, but just
exactly what does that mean? Seems like a church-y over-used term to me.
Evangelists... those I see on TV when I turn it on. Some are quite
entertaining. They are exactly who not to emulate IMHO.
Does
anybody you know actually walk in the POWER of God through what Jesus
has done? I'm not talking with modern hoop-lah, an entourage and all the
props... legends in their own minds. I mean genuine power where actual
"saving" takes place, whether right then, or shortly thereafter because
of the seed planted. Casual, with nothing but love and compassion, no
screaming or jumping up and down. Supernatural power that can only be
from God. Real people edifying others in Christ... wanting to set others
free from their burdens. Praying WITH them, not FOR them from a
distance or off some prayer list. Touching them with their hands (aka
laying on of hands) with THE faith and compassion of Jesus. How many
people do you know "get healed" because their name was on some list
somewhere? Very, very few I suspect. Not that that's a bad thing... but
where's the POWER today... the power of God that existed in Jesus, His
disciples and the apostles? The power He taught them to use through
faith in God and He commanded them to "go heal" with. If God's the same
yesterday, today and forever... then where's the stinkin' power? It's
still here... but you sure don't see it in the so-called evangelists of
the past 20 years. Most of that is pure sensationalism... some
well-meant, but as a whole, sensationalism.
I just don't think
God created us to sit around and wait and in the meantime do nothing but
get smarter and wiser in His word. Jesus became His word. He wants us
to do the same, not just talk about it. We are His pleasure. Heck, He
put man smack dab in the middle of a place called Pleasure... Eden. He
gets more pleasure by people getting set free in Christ. And that's how
we will get our pleasure... real pleasure... using His power in us to
set His people free.
Being religious obviously doesn't cut it...
for ourselves and especially for others. Jesus proved that by "woe-ing"
the Pharisees, Saducees and scribes at every turn of their show of
legalistic, self-righteous religion. Isaiah described in chapter 58 what
genuine fasting was, God's chosen fast, as opposed to the fasting going
on then (and still does today)...
Isaiah 58
6 ...to loose the bonds of wickedness. To undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and that you break every yoke.
7
...to share your bread with the hungry, and that you bring to your
house the poor who are cast out; when you see the naked that you cover
him, and not hide yourself from your own flesh.
8 Then your
light shall break forth like the morning, your healing shall spring
forth speedily, and your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of
the LORD shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer; you shall cry, and He will say, 'Here I am.'
This
stuff wasn't and still isn't just supposed to take place in peoples'
minds or in a far-away place some call heaven. He meant 'NOW'. Choose
His fast now and the result is verses 8 and 9. Doesn't sound like
"waiting" to me. We're supposed to love on people, actually get off the
couch, out of the house and truly DO something... for others. For some,
it may be the only time they "meet up" with Jesus. Even so, the seed is
planted.
Do we believe Him or not? "Greater things than these"
... "on earth as it is in heaven." ... "Now THAT's interesting"... and
so are you... in Him.
Peace,
earnestt
earnest
.. i love you ... man.. i think you got a big heart... but i have heard
this all my life... and i am suspicious of this kind of thinking .. in
my opinion it sounds like a political campaign speech....ask not what
your country can do for you but ask what you can do for your country...
and on the counseling of things its God does for those who do for
themselves. Its as if you are saying... and i may be wrong... but it
really is hard for me to get into the spirit of something when i know
what a person who is trying to get followers and votes is about. The
un natural way of this is what is making the red light go off in my
head.... i mean it seems like what you are saying that history has not
been a progression of an understanding of the ways of God since the
times of the apostles. And since we havent seen all of the body parts
being revived into new growth or that we havent seen someone raised from
the dead since Christ raised Lazarus then all of this institutional
approach in the church has been a great deception. At the same time you
are saying that this healing frenzy will get started when we have a
united effort to oppose this institutional approach. And what we need is
not gospel preachers but we need healers who bring the power of God. It
would seem to me that you are presuming on Gods work in the spreading
of the gospel. May i say that it really doesnt matter what we want as
in an individual sense of how the gospel is going to be going out to the
ends of the earth... but it matters that its not plugged into a system
that is not natural to the way Christ is designed His people to function
since we are not dealing with a mechanical view of how to use people
for our particular vision. This way of God is impossible for man
to accomplish...first because men love their own way as a natural
method of leadership. Men are born as sinners with a desire to go their
own way and there is no program that is going to stop that desire from
flourishing.... its like a bunch of snakes who cannot be charmed.. they
turn on their charmers. The life of a man who is under the domination of
sin is like a still born child... he is spiritually dead for 50 yrs in
comparison to eternity it is like being still born. Man is not only in
need of the gospel as a medicine for a cure but man is in need of the
gospel as a life support. Paul says in no uncertain words that the power
is not in man. In fact He says for me to live is Christ and to die is
gain... i must decrease so that He can increase.. and then He says since
i am nothing and Christ is everything then all that Paul does is by the
grace of God... in other words Paul can do nothing without God... or
the expression of all that Paul does on this earth is from a vessel that
says i am what i am by the grace of God. And this is what has
been passed down from one generation to another since the creation of
the world... for man cannot do anything without God intervening. It is
by His power alone.So the next time you think that your hands ... your
voice... your insights... your feet are needed in order to show Gods
power ... think about the unseen... for we walk by faith and not by
human intervention. Because God has spoken...everything that is
accomplished through us is already planned by God from eternity past...
the only real and sure foundation of all that exist is His word that is
spoken. For everything that He has determined to bring to pass is just
and rite and loving and faithful.. even in the most depraved thing that
we could imagine in our minds of what we have seen on this earth.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Galations 2:20
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on: July 07, 2009, 10:27:21 AM
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There
is a world that God has designed that does not feel ,or look any thing
close to what we depend upon as how we are naturally led to have a trust
in our ongoing security. The moment we begin to talk to someone we are
in essence teaching them this pattern as we have been transformed to
understand... this is nothing like the way the world is going. Coupled
with this is the understanding that God does for us as individuals a
good that he does different for others. In other words there is no one
who understands us ... i mean... with a perfect reciprocity of all that
we have as a supply to keep us from moving before we are able. Now then
our problem is not that we are changing or that we are so concerned with
changing that we become anxious on the one hand and we fail to
apprehend all that God has for us in understanding just what He is
doing....our problems in this life are mostly due to going ahead of Gods
time for us.
Because as i said we must learn wisdom.. and wisdom is
given to each individual from the ways of God. So that we are required
to learn these ways.. these ways are not natural... but they are a
perfect fit in our having the exact time of healing in whatever extent
we need at the pace God is going.
Now this is the place of rest.
There are many more traps in this life that demand our attention than we
can figure out on our own.So that we are required to long to be
delivered from the ways of men. What is natural in the communication of a
society of men is not natural in the fellowship of the Spirit in that
society. And when there are evil counselors that flood the land then
there are more dangers to be avoided. But we can be sure that God is
very slow in His ways and we must learn to find a refuge in that which
we do not see and not what we think we should see in the change that He
is doing in us. I would tell everyone here... be very careful... the
days are evil.
Huu-uh?
<weak attempt at sounding like Scooby Doo> "...at the pace God is
going..."? "...God is very slow in His ways..."? Haven't the days
ALWAYS been evil after the mess-up in Eden?
I guess I'm confused, per usual.
I read a quote that sums up for me just how passive God is NOT, nor should we be...
QUOTE: THE PRIMARY MISSION OF GOD: "We
get caught up in side arguments, intellectual skirmishes, theories, and
emotional head-trips. WE become enamored of our own talents and
spiritual giftings, thinking we can direct our own course simply by
putting our gifts and talents to use as we see fit. Though
well-intentioned, we become self-appointed in our commissions, honestly
believing we are submitting to God. In reality, it isn't possible to
prove the will of God on earth as it is in heaven unless we are
completely plugged into the primary mission God gave us. We put it this
way: There is no CO-missioning without SUB-mission to the primary
mission.
"So what is the primary mission? We saw it before in the life of Jesus
and in the testimony of Scripture. 1 John 3:8 states clearly that
through intimacy with God, we are to destroy the works of the devil:
"1 John 3
8 ...The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
"That was Jesus' assignment; it was Adam and Eve's assignment; it was the disciples' assignment. Believers, that is your assignment as well.
God's purpose in saving you was not simply to rescue you and let you
keep busy until He shipped you off to heaven. His purpose was much
bigger, much more stunning:
He commissioned you to demonstrate the will of God, 'on earth as it is
in heaven,' transforming this planet into a place radiant and saturated
with His power and presence. This is the very backbone of the Great Commission, and it should define your life and mine."
I
have to agree. Somehow, the CHURCH, for the most part has gotten way
off track IMHO... and probably from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of
Good & Evil (i.e. intellectual arguments, legalistic rules,
self-righteousness, judgmentalism) instead of from the Tree of Life
(Jesus). Tell only, and not Show & Tell, or Tell & Show. No demonstration of the power of God, just philosophy. Boring philosophy, I might add. (I'm guessing here.)
Where's
the LIFE? The life of abundance in health and provision of God's
promises through, in and of Jesus Christ? God's already done all He's
going to do... in Jesus; otherwise, what Jesus did for us was futile.
Don't we now have to TAKE IT, RECEIVE IT in faith... or just sit around
and wait on "it"? Those people prior to Christ's coming had to "wait".
We after Christ, no longer have to wait!
We must OVERCOME in
Christ... that's how I see it, NOW. No more 'sitting around'. The only
way others are going to be set free is by US. WE are now God's vessels
with Jesus Christ of Matthew, Mark, Luke & John as our perfect
example. "Greater things than these" WE are to do "on earth as it is in
heaven."
Grace to all,
earnestt
Wow
now thats interesting....Gods got us here to plug every body into
witnessing.... uh ... weve had more evangelist in this country in the
last 20 yrs than any country that ever existed... i am sure there is
more to it than this... ive heard this since i was a child... i know ..
the reformers had it wrong. Heard that one too... same old same old.
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4639
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Galations 2:20
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on: July 06, 2009, 04:52:21 PM
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|
There is a world that God has designed that
does not feel ,or look any thing close to what we depend upon as how we
are naturally led to have a trust in our ongoing security. The moment we
begin to talk to someone we are in essence teaching them this pattern
as we have been transformed to understand... this is nothing like the
way the world is going. Coupled with this is the understanding that God
does for us as individuals a good that he does different for others. In
other words there is no one who understands us ... i mean... with a
perfect reciprocity of all that we have as a supply to keep us from
moving before we are able. Now then our problem is not that we are
changing or that we are so concerned with changing that we become
anxious on the one hand and we fail to apprehend all that God has for us
in understanding just what He is doing....our problems in this life are
mostly due to going ahead of Gods time for us.
Because as i said we
must learn wisdom.. and wisdom is given to each individual from the
ways of God. So that we are required to learn these ways.. these ways
are not natural... but they are a perfect fit in our having the exact
time of healing in whatever extent we need at the pace God is going.
Now
this is the place of rest. There are many more traps in this life that
demand our attention than we can figure out on our own.So that we are
required to long to be delivered from the ways of men. What is natural
in the communication of a society of men is not natural in the
fellowship of the Spirit in that society. And when there are evil
counselors that flood the land then there are more dangers to be
avoided. But we can be sure that God is very slow in His ways and we
must learn to find a refuge in that which we do not see and not what we
think we should see in the change that He is doing in us. I would tell
everyone here... be very careful... the days are evil.
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| 4641
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Defeated Christian
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on: July 05, 2009, 02:40:37 PM
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The christian is one who has been implanted
with the very life of God.. this is a hidden life in the soul of man...
it is through the seed of the word of God.. that eternal word that
brings something into existence from nothing... its cause of existence
is in God Himself...so that the seed of the word of God grows so that
we begin to receive our sustenance from the Christ word to us.... the
word is perfect reviving the soul ... the statutes are trustworthy
making wise the simple ... the commands are radiant giving lite to the
eyes... the fear of the Lord is pure enduring forever... so we have the
source of all that we need in the illumination to our understanding of
this spiritual transformation that beings to feed our souls with divine
radiance... we literally are brought to have a radiance of His glory on
our face. We are revived from one glory to another... or that deepness
of God Himself that is the image of the illumination of that power is
actually calling from the very bottom of our souls.
In a sense we
begin to experience a divine flow of life as it is sustaining every
element in the universe... this is the glory of God in the face of Jesus
Christ... we begin to have a sense of His glory... the light of His
powerful working in everything around us...so that we are not only
having unity with the divine radiance but we are experiencing the deep
longings for God Himself....
A life of God is not holding us to this
world... we have a timeless implantation.... now then ... we are
rejoicing as if these times are always growing as we remember them and
as we long to find in greater ways in the future... so that we have the
past pleasure that is always present in all of His power. May i say that
we must get back to this level of worship in a corporate way?
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Defeated Christian
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on: July 05, 2009, 01:55:58 PM
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Well most people that i know are never as
healthy in their lives as they make themselves appear in public.... i
think we have it in the form of a religious show... we play off of our
addiction to the law. For instance we create the impression that we are
religious in the balance we have in our lives... and so we play off of
the list of things that we do either in a family way.. or a business way
or a personal discipline way and then we have our coaches or gurus who
give us a new twist in the program that will enhance our personal
holiness... we like the systems in the american as to appear more
respectful and within the system of those who are just starting out and
then those who have moved up the food chain. But the truth is that we
are in real distress and we face a mountain of problems ... we react in
anger hidden way down deep and it comes to the surface as a general
disposition of resignation. Then we have a divided life style... we are
restless when we are alone and we put on more of a face when we are
around our piers in what ever acceptance we get in our doing the
program. We are in a very desperate world and we pretend that its just a
matter of filling our time with principles and pleasing others in the
effort.
Another law principle that is natural to us is that we find
comfort in being under the power of something that is going to make us
feel the urge to change... we like the statutes and command of the
law... because they give us a sense of accomplishment... but we never
really think about the decrees of the law... that is Gods working in His
providence and His saving abilities and our inability. Our natural
attraction leads us to find a level of guilt... just enough for us to be
made to live in that infusion of sorrow so that instead of being moved
to find our joy in Him we are led to shun that bad experience until we
find a level of comfort in a method that leads to a dead orthodoxy. Then
we begin to ask questions as to why we are not interested in a vibrate
and flourishing relationship with our God. So we go back for some more
guilt and then we go through the whole process again. Now then i would
argue that it is because we do not know our God that we are satisfied
with our lives in pleasing our selves.
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4646
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 03, 2009, 10:18:08 PM
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But
if your trying to make a case that God is going to get you for some of
your sins then God is forcing you to comply by punishment... this is not
in the context of spiritual affections of the rest of the book... Its
not always true that the person receives the natural consequences....i
mean the ot is filled with individuals who did not receive what their
sin deserved... there would be no line of Christ in that case.
Let
me say something about indwelling sin....the apostle says that when we
were saved we were definitively sanctified. That is we were made holy
and set apart unto God.Our sins were imputed to Christ account and His
righteousness was imputed to our account... we have His righteousness as
proof that we are acceptable.. it is a foreign righteousness. We were
declared righteous for all eternity. But even tho we died to sin and sin
no longer reigns in us ... we still have indwelling sin.. .we still are
subject to the effects of sin.. and we still struggle with our weakness
in failing. So we still have this struggle with sin. We never do what
we are required to do... because the law demands absolute obedience...
if it did not then God could not be just or right in all of His decrees.
So the apostle says that as long as we are in these bodies we are going
to practice sin...even tho we want to be controlled by the Spirit yet
we are always doing things that are carnal... we go from spiritual to
carnal so many times that it really is a mystery to us. But since we
have been justified we have peace with God... now when we sin we enjoy
His righteousness on our behalf...if the forgiveness of sin depended
upon anything that we do... like confession then we would never have
enough time in this world to confess them.Since we sin and sin leads to
death... our sin has been paid for by Christ and we are no longer under
the obligation to atone for our sins. Again the context is spiritual
affections....
I understand what you are saying Tom, that whole post was really good--but I only highlighted part of it here. I don't think Beacon nor I are making a case of God going to get us or making us comply with punishment. Far from it! I
am FULLY aware that I didn't have to pay some "EARTHLY" consequences
for some of the sin's I've comitted! I am always baffled by that
amazing grace! MANY TIMES! More than I can count! At the same
time I've seen other things in others lives or my own and I know it was
something that I did that brought that about..and I have to deal with
those consequences. The thing I try to focus most on is that
through my confidence in Christ (who HE IS) and HIS love for me--I know
that ALL things work together for my good. Even when I don't like it 
Yes
i understand what you are saying... as you know there are many reasons
that i am pointing these things out... i mean ... you may think that i
am accusing you and b2 of a wrong interpretation here... but this is so
often misunderstood that we must spend some time explaining how these
truths apply to us and the consistent way of the healthy application in
lite of the entire counsel of God. As i have always said that we must
not create our own contradictions. In light of the doctrinal arguments
that the apostle has explained in the prior sections of Galatians we are
required to keep a close watch on the commands... for the indicative
and the imperative are inseparable. Not only are we to be
concerned about upholding one another in light of our sins and their
consequences, but we are also encouraged to overlook sin. The reason is
not that we would appear as if we were covering up the sin... but God
does not hold us to our sins. If God does not treat us as our sins
deserve then we can trust that when He says there is no condemnation ...
that we are no longer accused of our sin. Can i say that this
principle of divine acceptance of us is a universal teaching that God is
love? This order is very important to how we are enabled to find unity.
We understand that we must be loved first in order to be able to love.
God teaches us His love for us by us experiencing the freedom of His
grace when we sin. We understand that sin has consequences... but we
have this new ability to live in a reality that is not primarily a world
where we think in terms of receiving consequences. This is the new
renewed experience. We actually are not even shrinking into corruption
to our death... i do not mean our bodies... we are actually expanding
our living in a hope of being transformed from one glory to another. Our
spirit is being renewed day by day. There is nothing we can do to stop
this process... we are becoming like Christ because we desire Him more
than anything else. So the christian begins to deal with his sins
before they actually effect his physical members. This is a supernatural
paradigm. Because we have been given spiritual sense we have
the ability to judge ourselves by the light of His communication to
us...we actually can have the attitudes of our hearts renewed. Now i
know you are thinking that this is not what a religious person
accomplishes in this life in order to leave a legacy. But if Jesus said
that its not what goes into a man that defiles him... but it is what
comes out of a man... then dont you think that He has given us the means
to live a life as if it were the secret life of God hidden from the
world.. .where all of the battles are fought and all of the satisfaction
is experienced? Now this is consequential to all of the weights of
glory that are going to carry in the weight of real victory. This is why
the confession states that we are not to be overly concerned about this
life.. what we will eat or what we will wear... because we are only
going to find rest when we rest in God... when we glorify God by
enjoying Him... the reason that this is not a waist of time is that
there is an inward world that determines how we are going to live.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 03, 2009, 03:10:05 PM
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After rereading my last post, I thought I better clarify some of my comments.
On the immutable law of God, “The wages of sin is death:”
The
children of God are not bound by it. How come? Because we have met
the one required stipulation under the New Covenant: we have believed
in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The ones that will be judged under that
law at the end of this age will be nonbelievers--those who will have
been found to have rejected the Gospel. These are the ones to whom Heb
10:30 applies.
What about the sins the children of God commit while on this earth? What "sins"? Under the new covenant, our actions on this earth are classified as either profitable or unprofitable in God’s eyes, for everything is lawful unto us since He did not give us a written code.
However, while on this earth, all men--including the saints -- are under the immutable law that says, “whatever one sows one reaps.”
God imbedded this principle in the physical realm as well as the spiritual so that certain effects always naturally follow -- either good results/blessings OR bad, undesirable consequences-- depending on our actions.
In this regard, Paul gives us the following exhortation:
Gal 6:8
8 The
one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap
destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will
reap eternal life. (NIV)
Gal 5:13-14
13 You, my brothers,
were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the
sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (NIV)
* Sinful nature = the flesh
b2
If
we are no longer under condemnation then how can God repay our evil
with retribution? Does our relationship with our heavenly Father include
this idea of behavioral punishment? If there is this tension that
defines our being accepted for some behaviors and our being reject for
other behaviors then how can grace be defined as freedom from the
bondage of the law?.... if the law is held in front of us in its
threatening? Is the law a school master for us if we fail to meet the
standards of conduct as commanded in the bible if God is repaying us for
evil? To me it is the same thing to say that we have an ability to
receive salvation without God giving us grace in order to be able to
receive the gospel and saying that grace is a predeterminer of faith but
there is human responsibility where the law of retribution is
experienced. These paradigms of grace are sisters. How can we be
justified of all of our sins in this life if we are being repaid for
them? How can we experience the freedom from the bondage of the law if
we have no relief in His payment not only for our sins ... but for their
consequences?
I did say "while on this earth" but didn't
highlight it MBG. So I can see how you or others might misunderstand
what I was trying to say. Becky's post further explains what I posted. b2
Thanks
Beck and b2... i was just trying to bring out the main doctrine in all
of this.. it is really a sensitive area of scripture.. and it can move
to a spirit from the text that is plain heresy..... anyway i hope i can
encourage here.
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4650
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 03, 2009, 02:19:37 PM
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In applying these exhortations of the
apostle.. as he so often talks about in all of his epistles it is very
important that we do not imply a way of life that he is not speaking of.
There is no doubt that there are natural laws in the universe but if
they could work all the time then the world would be a place where
justice is seen all the time. And i am not saying that this principle
does not apply in some way to a believer. The apostle says that sin
leads to death... that is to physical and spiritual death in the sense
of punishment... otherwise in a context like this sin could only lead to
physical death... but that is not the only death. We died to sin
... we no longer under the eternal punishment for sin.. We are in
Christ... this is a totally different way of understanding.... not only
because we do what the Spirit is telling us... but we are caused to do
it from a principle that is implanted in us at the new birth. Our desire
comes from the nature of the Spirit.... we have a new ruler that has
moved in. now our desires are from a spiritual affection.... we chose
based upon what is most pleasing to our minds view of an object. Before
we were born again we did not have the spiritual nature to desire
spiritual good... we only desired objects that were pleasing to our
flesh.Every thing that looked good to us was purely from a physical
purpose....we were under the influence of our 5 senses... When we
were born again we received the Spirit... we were infused with a divine
light... a new understanding.. this new understanding was these new
spiritual senses... or we could describe them as analogies of faith.....
now we could taste , touch, see, and feel in the spiritual realm...our
new enlightened understanding of the objects of faith are the cause of
all of our new affections.... now we desire Christ above all other
objects in this world. When the apostle talks about the Spirit... it
is in the context of these spiritual affections. If we do not have
these affections then we do not have the Spirit. If a person says that
he knows Christ but has no desire to seek Christ ... that person has no
want in his daily life then no matter how many good deeds he does... it
means nothing... This is what he is saying here... if there is no
desire or grief over your sin... if you have no reaction to sin... and
if you have no desire for the Spirit to control you... then you will
follow exactly where your sin leads you... to death... this actual is as
far away from works as he is explaining in the rest of Gal... after
beginning in the Spirit are you not trying to perfect yourselves by the
flesh? the flesh leads to sin and sin leads to death.. do not be
deceived God is not impressed. But if your trying to make a case that
God is going to get you for some of your sins then God is forcing you
to comply by punishment... this is not in the context of spiritual
affections of the rest of the book... Its not always true that the
person receives the natural consequences....i mean the ot is filled with
individuals who did not receive what their sin deserved... there would
be no line of Christ in that case. Let me say something about
indwelling sin....the apostle says that when we were saved we were
definitively sanctified. That is we were made holy and set apart unto
God.Our sins were imputed to Christ account and His righteousness was
imputed to our account... we have His righteousness as proof that we are
acceptable.. it is a foreign righteousness. We were declared righteous
for all eternity. But even tho we died to sin and sin no longer reigns
in us ... we still have indwelling sin.. .we still are subject to the
effects of sin.. and we still struggle with our weakness in failing. So
we still have this struggle with sin. We never do what we are required
to do... because the law demands absolute obedience... if it did not
then God could not be just or right in all of His decrees. So the
apostle says that as long as we are in these bodies we are going to
practice sin...even tho we want to be controlled by the Spirit yet we
are always doing things that are carnal... we go from spiritual to
carnal so many times that it really is a mystery to us. But since we
have been justified we have peace with God... now when we sin we enjoy
His righteousness on our behalf...if the forgiveness of sin depended
upon anything that we do... like confession then we would never have
enough time in this world to confess them.Since we sin and sin leads to
death... our sin has been paid for by Christ and we are no longer under
the obligation to atone for our sins. Again the context is spiritual
affections....
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Questions
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on: July 03, 2009, 11:13:02 AM
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Numbers 5 'If a man's wife goes astray and is
unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden
from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no
witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if
feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and
she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is
not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also
take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of barley flour on her
behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a
grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to
guilt.
16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand
before the LORD. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and
put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the
priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair
and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for
jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no
other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become
impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a
curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to
your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other
than your husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this
curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce
you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell.
[d] 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your
abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."
This is interesting as compared with
Jn.
4:7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will
you give me a drink?" 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy
food.)
9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am
a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not
associate with Samaritans.[a])
10Jesus answered her, "If you
knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would
have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11"Sir,"
the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep.
Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father
Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his
sons and his flocks and herds?"
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who
drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I
give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in
him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."
16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17"I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband.
18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is
not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
19"Sir,"
the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers
worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we
must worship is in Jerusalem."
21Jesus declared, "Believe me,
woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this
mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not
know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a
time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship
the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the
Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit
and in truth."
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
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4653
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 03, 2009, 09:01:52 AM
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After rereading my last post, I thought I better clarify some of my comments.
On the immutable law of God, “The wages of sin is death:”
The
children of God are not bound by it. How come? Because we have met
the one required stipulation under the New Covenant: we have believed
in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The ones that will be judged under that
law at the end of this age will be nonbelievers--those who will have
been found to have rejected the Gospel. These are the ones to whom Heb
10:30 applies.
What about the sins the children of God commit
while on this earth? What "sins"? Under the new covenant, our actions
on this earth are classified as either profitable or unprofitable in God’s eyes, for everything is lawful unto us since He did not give us a written code.
However, while on this earth, all men--including the saints -- are under the immutable law that says, “whatever one sows one reaps.”
God imbedded this principle in the physical realm as well as the spiritual so that certain effects always naturally follow -- either good results/blessings OR bad, undesirable consequences-- depending on our actions.
In this regard, Paul gives us the following exhortation:
Gal 6:8
8 The
one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap
destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will
reap eternal life. (NIV)
Gal 5:13-14
13 You, my brothers,
were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the
sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (NIV)
* Sinful nature = the flesh
b2
If
we are no longer under condemnation then how can God repay our evil
with retribution? Does our relationship with our heavenly Father include
this idea of behavioral punishment? If there is this tension that
defines our being accepted for some behaviors and our being reject for
other behaviors then how can grace be defined as freedom from the
bondage of the law?.... if the law is held in front of us in its
threatening? Is the law a school master for us if we fail to meet the
standards of conduct as commanded in the bible if God is repaying us for
evil? To me it is the same thing to say that we have an ability to
receive salvation without God giving us grace in order to be able to
receive the gospel and saying that grace is a predeterminer of faith but
there is human responsibility where the law of retribution is
experienced. These paradigms of grace are sisters. How can we be
justified of all of our sins in this life if we are being repaid for
them? How can we experience the freedom from the bondage of the law if
we have no relief in His payment not only for our sins ... but for their
consequences? If we are forgiven because of His work there is no way
for us to understand this by experience in this life if we are under the
law of owing Christ in the proof of just payment. Is the proof of
sovereign and free grace found in our being threatened to find it in
worm theology? Is this how we are led to understand Gods condescending
love? People who believe this kind of teaching are spiritual elitist. The
context in these verses describing where these two kinds of realities
end. The apostle is not saying that destruction is the payment for those
who are in Christ... nor is he saying that a christian is obligated to
follow the Spirit as a matter of the will alone. This is a universal
statement... it is that those who follow the flesh will reap eternal
destruction...he is not saying that if a person decides to follow the
Spirit then he will reap eternal life. If we take this as an
encouragement ... which is a hebrew ism of our confidence of the
promises ... we will see in the whole near context of what he is saying
and the far context of scripture he is saying that it would be
impossible for those who are controlled by the Spirit to be thrown into
hell... i can show you this kind of reasoning... If you look at any of
my writings this grace and the relationship to our sin is clearly set
with that spirit of free sovereign and irresistible. And i can describe to you our relationship to our Father in His loving discipline. Psalm 32:10 Many are the woes of the wicked,(these are the laws threatening) but the LORD's unfailing love surrounds the man who trusts in him. (no longer accused.) Matt.
23 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers
of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them
and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they
do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them
on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger
to move them. 5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They
make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats
in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to
have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8"But you are not to be called
'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do
not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in
heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher,
the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For
whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will
be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees,
you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You
yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying
to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and
when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you
are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by
the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the
temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater:
the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If
anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by
the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is
greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore,
he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And
he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in
it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one
who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and
Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill
and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the
law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the
latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain
out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the
law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and
dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind
Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the
outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law
and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which
look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's
bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you
appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of
hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and
Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and
decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in
the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in
shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves
that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill
up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You
snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to
hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers.
Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your
synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all
the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of
righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you
murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all
this will come upon this generation.
You like the law... Jesus says I will give you the law.... but here is Jesus ways....
37"O
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to
you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen
gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look,
your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see
me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the
Lord.'[d]"
If you are just giving us the impression that this
is religious imperialism .... then that is sooo incomplete... this is
also political as well.
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4659
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: Questions
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on: July 02, 2009, 03:45:17 PM
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Joshua 23 1 After a long time had passed and
the LORD had given Israel rest from all their enemies around them,
Joshua, by then old and well advanced in years, 2 summoned all
Israel—their elders, leaders, judges and officials—and said to them: "I
am old and well advanced in years. 8 But you are to hold fast to the
LORD your God, as you have until now. Now
there are many different people present ... some who are idol
worshipers and some covenant people... i mean the remnant was included
in the next speech.. not in a completely faithful way... in a sinless
sense...Here is that relationship....14 "Now I am about to go the
way of all the earth. You know with all your heart and soul that not one
of all the good promises the LORD your God gave you has failed. Every
promise has been fulfilled; not one has failed. Now with the remnant God is always faithful but there are those standing in that group that were idol worshipers.15
But just as every good promise of the LORD your God has come true, so
the LORD will bring on you all the evil he has threatened, until he has
destroyed you from this good land he has given you.
He gathers all
the people of Israel...and it comes to this exhortation.... 14 "Now fear
the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond
the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD
seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you
will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River,
or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me
and my household, we will serve the LORD." very different from this as has been said above in vs 8 But you are to hold fast to the LORD your Godthis is the exhortation that is repeated throughout the book of Hebrews, as you have until now. Here
you have faithfulness and on the other hand you have people who are not
faithful.. same as in heb... those who know Gods ways and those who do
not know His ways. Those who see God as completely faithful in all His
promises and those who are still not certain. 23 "Now then," said
Joshua, "throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your
hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel." After they go back and forth
about what is to be done and those who are idol worshipers respond that
they will in the future get rid of their idols ... then Here again is
those who are wavering... they are not faithful... he sorta gets in
their face. There are obviously two different groups here ...
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The Laundry List
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on: July 01, 2009, 05:47:49 PM
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Beacon
asked..then how do we exhibit that grace to the world??..the whole
thread and it’s origin are about grace..it’s intent and it’s purest
motivation ..I hope everyone can see that..
Because it’s
essential to give the world a preview of exactly how we’ve been spared
not only wrath and Hell etc..but to show them also that in the same way
we received Him..let’s also WALK……………one more time WALK in HIM
Hey All...
Borrowing a quote from my brother (actual sibling)...
Grace
is not Jesus holding back Father's wrath from you. Grace is Father
loving you so much, and Jesus loving you so much, that they both formed a
plan of constant and perpetual rescue.
Earnest... I don't know. I used to see it like: Jesus, good cop. Father God, bad cop. It has recently become clear... to
me anyway, that the cross was as much about bearing our shame so we
could come with a clear conscience as it was bearing our sin. We
always say: "God can't be around sin," But I would direct us back to the
original sin in the garden, what did God do then? Run screaming from
the garden? NO! He went and found them, then shed blood to cove them.
Why? Because they were naked and they felt shame for the first time.
Shame made it's entry into the human psyche at the same time sin made
it's way into the human soul. Also, if you go back and read the
story of Issac being almost sacrificed by Abraham, there is an
interesting thing occurring that we don't usually consider. When Issac
asks his father where the animal for sacrifice is, the KJV says that
Abraham said to Issac: "God will provide." Now I am not a Hebrew
Scholar, but the earliest form of Hebrew as this was written in would
have most likely been an active verb form, or Niphal tense of the word
Ra'Ah. If the Niphal tense was used, there are three possible
definitions, all pointing to the same thing. 1) to appear, present oneself 2) to be seen 3) to be visible These
sort of point to the same thing: God will present himself as the
sacrifice. Now, we know He provided the Ram, and God is not a Ram, but,
is there a deeper, more prophetic inference here? I think possibly so
given that many many times throughout the prophets of the OT that God
proclaims that He himself will be the agent of our cleansing and
redemption, like here in: Psalm 130:8 He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins. Isaiah
44:22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the
morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you." Jeremiah.
33:8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me
and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me. Eze
36:33 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you
from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be
rebuilt. 2 Cor 5:17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new
creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God,
who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of
reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in
Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us
the message of reconciliation. I don't know for sure, but, I
think this idea that God cannot exist in the presence of sinful men
doesn't hold water, especially in light of those, even of the Old
Testament, who bore His spirit to the world.
Mx ... i got to say that this is one of the most insightful post ive read in a long time.
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