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931	Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Law, when?	on: September 01, 2012, 10:34:28 AM
The law of God in written form is not the same thing as the law written on our hearts in our view. Because we are what our view is of the perfect man. I think this is why the apostle talked about the law of sin and death. Or the controlling principle of the conscience. Or he says that we are a law unto ourselves. So there is a relationship with the law of God to our bondage under sin.. or we are a law unto ourselves ... which is our view of ourselves in comparison to Christ. The principle of excusing or accusing. How do we know what we are like if we do not perfectly understand that we have violated the law? Some people think that Gods truth is always absolute and not situational. But in scripture God says things that are not necessarily revealing all of the truth in a given situation. God communicates in a way that is relational. If in fact the law is fulfilled by loving God and neighbor then God Himself perfectly fulfills this to us. I think God determines through truth all that comes to pass in this world. Remember this the law is really who God is in a streamed down way communicated to us. The law is not just the commands or the ten commandments but its the decrees as well. So within the moral success of this world God must right the wrongs... prevent the world from destroying itself and act as the arbitrator of processing the movement of life and death. So when we approach God we are not equals in understanding the definition of evil. This is why the law actually speaks to us something that is far worse than the violation of one principle. At the same time God prevents us from seeing the absolute violation of the law by graciously dealing with us as dust. If in fact God has a view of us as sovereign then He is able to deal with our small understanding of how evil we are and at the same time condescend to us in a way that prevents and allows perfectly to give us success in our ability to persevere. So we always acknowledge the inability to not only meet the requirements of the law but our total powerlessness to exist outside of Gods sustaining presence. And in this sense we fall back into Gods hands which is always the principle of grace we find acceptance. Or grace is God dealing with us not according to our sins but how He determines the end from the beginning in our lives.
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932  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Gods Love on: September 01, 2012, 10:04:42 AM Thanks a lot everyone.. at least you admit reading some of my rambling post.. just been busy lately... Remove Reply Quote Notify

933  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Gods Love on: August 28, 2012, 03:03:21 PM God is our Father who has come down to our human experience. Through Christ who is our advocate and high priest all the promises .. the gifts are given to us as yea and amen. So we have a hope that we do not fully enjoy. But in this life we have times where what we hoped for was fulfilled. At other times our hopes are dashed. So this problem of a hope deferred is part of the chemistry of Gods love being experienced. Just like when we were kids and we were promised something in the future. So we longed for the day when we got it. And when we received it our hope turned to joy. This is sort of a small example of our ongoing relationship with a loving Father. A lot of this waiting and longing for something seems to be un important. We think of God as someone who provides us a basic security and then we live in that acceptance of the pleasure we receive from it. But actually God lives with us in order to interact with us about the most common things. I do not exactly know why we do not talk to Him like this but this whole child like trust and wishing is how we view God connecting with us in this human hope. In other words there is a certain transparency in experiencing this child like joy from God granting us what we asked for. You know God has loved us with an eternal love. But we lose hope because we experience the resistance of this world that is hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. In us this is sort of an anxious spirit. But its also we get distracted from the level of connection we could have with God in focusing on Him giving us what we ask for. But the bible gives us specific promises in which we experience anger and joy that is contained. But in scripture it is expressed beyond our normal social interactions. So the bible gives us a way to talk to God in private as unburdening our hearts. So we have this relationship away from the world which is the same thing as setting ourselves on heavenly things. Its thinking like God about the world and reacting in this personal language in the most transparent way. This involves actually experiencing this child like circumstance of hope.    Remove Reply Quote Notify

934  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Calvanism and unelect babies in hell on: August 28, 2012, 02:40:47 PM The reconciliation of men is through Christ. Those same reconciled in this context are said God does not count their sins against them. This phrase is classic ot verbiage talking about Gods covenant people.. His elect people. Because this "not counting" is in a relationship with the Shepherd of our souls. So this is what being reconciled means. The idea of reconciliation is to be at peace with God. Therefore since we have been justified by faith we have peace with God. But reconciliation is not a term just about unity. But its in the relationship with Christ in which we are at one receiving all that He has promised including our inheritance in the heavenly sense. This is why any idea of bringing two parties together without the fundamental trust in this forgiveness that involves worship , adoration, and a deepening understanding of the gifts through grace is not biblical reconciliation. When we approach a holy God our reconciliation that was once for all is our confidence that sin cannot prevent us from full acceptance by it being counted against us. This is not just a truth that we believe but its our blessed experience as reminding God of His promise and then claiming it as confidence that we will get what we ask for if we praise Him for His accomplished work.  This is the ministry of reconciliation that we have in standing on the faith that we are reconciled by Christ death and resurrection.   Reply Quote Notify

935  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Calvanism and unelect babies in hell on: August 28, 2012, 01:50:42 PM Quote from: Onetake on August 27, 2012, 01:23:51 PM I wonder If this issue is another of those in which the bible seems to teach two different things. First, the bible seems to say that all are born wicked. Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.  Or maybe this goes to the point that God knew who would be wicked from the womb So  maybe babies are born estranged from God spiritually. But, even though the age of accountability is not explicitly taught in the bible.  David, at the death of his infant son said. 2nd Samuel 12: 22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” So, it seems that David knew that he would see his Son again in heaven. So, while David's Son, was born wicked if the verse from Psalms means all  are estranged from the womb, the child was not accountable for his (the Child's) wickedness. Is this another example of where the bible seems to say two things?  A tension which is difficult to resolve with human minds?  Could be   oh darn did I reply to the wrong thread?  Well if so, I think that this might go in hand with another discussion going on now. If you look at the context of this passage the Psalmist is addressing the problems of rulers and authorities. And this is one of two psalms that talk about Gods rule over the earth. Of course this is a cursing Psalm. And you must understand that as we describe these levels of authority in society we are talking about the evils being conceived not as just a meta physical idea of pain but what those who are at the bottom must face in their daily lives. So a biblical mind does not think in terms of dividing their time in these different spheres of responsibility. God looks at the structures of ruling in a society as the foundations for all the people. And so as the Psalmist describes these different authorities he gets more passionate. lol Why is their such hopelessness in this world? Because the normal communication of evil people is disconnected from the real causes of the problems. The truth is that the wicked are easy to control. lol First because they are the most blind to the real causes. This is what is so odd about this world. If the foundations are destroyed then what looks evil is actually good and what looks good is actually evil. In a cultural sense God must go underground to accomplish quick fixes. lol We call this super naturalism or redemption through force. So this king pronounces curses on evil rulers. lol What is his description of them? They have advanced in this life through destroying others. Basically God divides man into two groups. Those who know God understand Gods care and concern for life. Those who do not know God think He is a tyrant and avoid Him. And the Psalmist here is pointing to their first way of promoting themselves as evidence of the way they rule now. lol.   Reply Quote Notify

936  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Beginning resolution of OSAS/YCLYS on: August 28, 2012, 12:56:29 PM Im reading here two points of view. One is .. and i do like B2s doctrine of regeneration ... but first Gods salvation has never changed. When God approached man after the fall He provided eternal life by showing His plan of redemption in the animal skins. God was not providing man with the leaves and then later the animal skins. The sacrifice in itself had no power. Non of the physical elements had magical powers. But God accepted the sacrifice as a temporary satisfaction for the sins of the people. So we really are talking about a way rather than an event. God through the offering of the sacrifice made a way to give man all the benefits of salvation that we receive under the new covenant. There is not an ot grace and a nt grace. So in a sense the practice of offering a daily sacrifice had nothing to do with forgiveness and acceptability. Yes the means are essential but in themselves they do not have any power. Where did the gifts originate from? They were promised to the elect through covenant faithfulness of God. And you see this in the pattern of worship in the ot. They did not have a description of a process in approaching God. First because sacrifices were not the same types. The poor provided a different sacrifice than the rich. Gods covenant superseded this system because He could not allow man to have an offering that was acceptable to Him through the physical markers and processes. Look at the moral component that God was angry with Israel in doing the process? The rich took advantage of the poor through false scales, temple sales , etc. lol So the old covenant was not really a system that failed to provide the people with salvation. It was a direct promise from God based upon His grace, mercy, unfailing love and faithfulness to do as He promised. This is what the Psalmist was saying about offering God a sacrifice of praise in comparing it to these daily sacrifices. God wanted them to be fully dependent upon Him not the means. The second one like Kks ive been addressing for awhile. Reply Quote Notify

937  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Beginning resolution of OSAS/YCLYS on: August 26, 2012, 08:39:38 PM Let me say that mi has two lines of thought going on here in my opinion. I sort of agree with him on some level. Because these psychological issues of life have their own story line going on that sometimes dwarfs the scriptural truths into powerless words on a page. I can describe different types of the make up of people. And some people are rather simplistic about all of this focus on discipleship and doctrinal studies . For one reason there is no demand since they dont have the same passion and maybe they do not have the potential to suffer with these disorders. I understand how there can be a disconnect with average christians. There are cases where a person can be disabled in some way but through a lot of discipline go beyond the average experience. And as we get up into these older years with a lot of years of discipline we can sort of grow distant as being a special case. I believe we sometimes make these things in community so functional that we reject any kind of giftedness through struggling with a dysfunction. This is a very real experience. Its kind of like the philosophers who learn their way of arguing through life experience and enjoy having come out on the other side of dysfunction with a special discipline. And this is like being marked for life. lol So we have all of these personal feelings tied up in our philosophy. lol This is kind of like the history of apologetic s.  We enjoy the disagreements because we like to distinguish our way of writing from others because of all of the pain and thinking that has gone into it over the years. For some of us the christian experience is given importance because we have someone to disagree with. lol Reply Quote Notify

938  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: An interesting dialog about Election, OSAS and YCLYS on: August 26, 2012, 08:07:26 PM Salvation is by grace alone not through any group, work or sacrifice. If there is a reason that God chooses some and leaves others in their sins the answer is not understandable. If we knew the individual answer as to why He chose us and not someone else then it would not be grace. It would be through a human agency. We cannot go from our own experience. If I love God then Im saved. If i am struggling then i am not saved. One example is Solomon. He basically lived like a pagan until he was older and grieved about it. His grief was from the level of spiritual understanding that he applied to his sin. More than any other man. lol Here is a king who quoted more proverbs and understood wisdom that any man on this earth. So he exceeded the sin level of adultery, greed, and acting like a humanist and yet on the other hand he was more wise and mature than even his father David. The point is that God has made it impossible for us to point to a man in scriptures to find a reason for them to be saved or the leaders based upon some continual sins they committed that would be a reason for other people to question their salvation. And if you dont teach what the bible says about these men then in some ways your withholding Gods teaching which is hypocrisy...a worse sin than adultery. lol Now look at what God says is the reason that these men were saved. Remember that the kings were forbidden to take foreign wives. Yet Solomon throughout his life took foreign wives. And the bible even says that his wives turned his heart away from God. So we have a direct statement here that Solomon turned away from God but God never rejected Solomon. If these men are correct then why was not Solomon rejected? (Driscol not included)Because God remains faithful even if some men get hardened by their sins and turn away from God. Even if some men remained in this losing sinful life style to their death yet if they are saved it only proves that salvation is by grace alone. And this is the point. For the sake of the faithful God shows us through some men that God alone deserves the praise. So living in grief and guilt is a waste of time. Instead of wondering why not just turn to Christ for His free offer? But if salvation is something along with grace then it is in our hands.   Reply Quote Notify

939  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Calvanism and unelect babies in hell on: August 26, 2012, 03:35:15 PM Quote from: Joker on August 26, 2012, 02:35:00 PM Quote from: Biggie This is a moral equation about protecting the helpless and the poor. If in fact God is a saving God then He puts special time in protecting those that need saving. And He enforces His saving knowledge by His protecting these helpless people. This is why God as loving would not punish people like the handicap and babies. But since you believe in Total Depravity, then you must acknowledge that all humanity is poor and helpless and needs saving.  Then God should save them all, right?  Or are you willing to concede that Man is not totally helpless? I believe in total depravity of all of Adams offspring. But the reason for this predicament in my opinion must be pondered on and meditated upon through scripture. Its easy for us to learn something without it being healthy to our world view. You know the support of life is the outworking of a world of hope. Its more then just counting babies but its a spiritual paradigm. Its a meta physical reality. Why would God determine to let man fall into sin and plan to remedy if through His own Son? Because God is good and in Him is light that lights the world. The back drop is evil and darkness. So the question in my mind is not just sin being something that God does not like. But its falling into a state of blindness and impossible circumstances. Joker i may believe in more freedom than your saying here because in my understanding since sin is so debilitating i allow more freedom to a sinner because i see the hopelessness of man doing any thing to remedy it, to stop it from spreading. So maybe we Calvinist in letting God handle it the sinner actually has more freedom since we are not focused on preventing it as much. And you can work this out in your general attitude as you live in this world and deal with people. So in acknowledged the awful state of sin we are left with only one hope actually. This is why i wonder why christians become so obsessed with their own sins. I mean maybe its because sin has been defined down so that its like a psychosis between two people or something. But all the labeling only dampens our understanding of the free exercise of grace that we dwell in since its kind of like calling us names when they make lite of the real causes of sin and what it does. It seems to me if the problem is one thing why add 10 more chapters with a hundred more rules when you can just say its sin and do what the bible says. lol. Since i am a father i understand a little bit about how to take care of children. And yet its easy to view these things in an emotional way so that we become God. The reason that God decided to be our Father is not so that we could show our sons what God is like. But its to show us that if we think on our own then we wont be of help as a father. Our Father doesnt let us become a religious dictator over our children but He actually wants us to fellowship with Him as the example of a father. The reason is because of human frailty in family generation. We cant reverse these frailties unless we think like our Father. Holy means to be completely separated unto God. And its God restoring what was not passed down. He does this through the process of transformation.. changing the way we think. Thinking thoughts after God. So we are not just in a chain of command but we are on display. How much do we understand God being Father in a redemption sense. We meet Christ and He leads us to the Father. The Father as Steve talks about all the time is the place where we get loved. This love is God restoring our understanding of how we related in this world ..especially to our children. So God as Father meets all of our interior needs. One of the reason why we do not understand the nature of sin and destruction is because we do not understand being loved by God. But this is a covenant promise. Word and Spirit. This is why there is a special understanding of Gods Fatherly care. Because God deals with way ward thoughts not just actions. Because a way ward thought really is the same thing as a threat against Gods Fatherly care. So sin and destruction are first planned out in the heart of man. But the bible does not say that babies are responsible for this destruction. Since babies cannot reason morally. But if you study the wisdom books the bible says the process of destruction begins with man thinking it out. With that as the back drop of God protecting the helpless. Reply Quote Notify

940  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Calvanism and unelect babies in hell on: August 26, 2012, 02:20:35 PM I am a proud sovereign grace guy. I am as dogmatic as i possible can be at this point. In this i am a Calvinist. I stand on the side of life. Life to me is not just a matter of the physical factors but it involves the meta physical. It involves how Christ rules every inch of the universe. And so i seek to understand grace more so that in applying it to life i do not get tripped up with my words. I may not say things correctly all the time but there is nothing of my words that can over power His reality through His word. This is why i believe in total depravity. Because with out man falling into a state of hopelessness i would have not real trust in salvation. Nor would i understand the nature of the destruction of sin. Its only experiencing the effects of salvation that we experiences real life. Its only in dwelling in salvation that we understand he true nature of this worlds destructive motives. So just as i need a remedy for my sin i also need a remedy for the destructing that comes as a result of sin. I mean i can sit and complain about all the pain and misery that is hoisted on people in this world or i can see it as God sees it and overcome it with blessing and cursing. But God in His general disposition is loving. And He is always miss represented as being mean and hateful by men. Part of the destruction of man in a moral sense is how man talks about God. If God were not angry and just then there would be a lot more people who had no hope of justice in this world. If God were to protect one person at the expense of another sinner by our view of justice then He would need to explain Himself when we understood the whole truth as to why He changed His mind to agree with us. lol But God is in the business of saving. This is exactly why we do not attack people who are helpless. The level of hardness in our hearts is not just measured by sin but by who we pick on. Can you imagine what God sees as He looks at the power structures of this world. We may be confused as to who is blamed by their powerful decisions that affect millions of people but God is not. This is a moral equation about protecting the helpless and the poor. If in fact God is a saving God then He puts special time in protecting those that need saving. And He enforces His saving knowledge by His protecting these helpless people. This is why God as loving would not punish people like the handicap and babies. Because Gods love is shown in His reversing the destruction of sin. And His love is condescended to us as being real in how He protects the helpless.   Reply Quote Notify

941  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritual Experiences on: August 26, 2012, 01:55:57 PM Spiritual experiences are the eternal reminders of the past communication of His love for us. So when we remember times and places we think of them in terms of word and Spirit. These visible effects of the earth are the reminders of those experience from the light of His glory that is timeless. So we begin to see behind the visible. And these experiences of the light of His glory is being filled with His Spirit so that our memories are eternal and we rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. So we experience a kind of baptism of His Spirit. We live to partake of His word and Spirit. We approach these means like we approach the table to eat. But instead of being satisfied just in a physical sense we are dwelling in the light of the glory behind the physical. He shines the light of His glory into our face. This is going from one glory to another.  When we are filled with the Spirit we actually experience Christ presence in this longing fashion where we want nothing else. He promises to lead us through all of our trials. Sometimes we apply the curses to our present situation so that we will not lose the hope .. the first love memories. So we are grabbing on and clawing with the curses. But we really do not fight against flesh and blood but we confront a personal devil. I mean the devil gets very angry and destructive. I understand the hate in a believer ... a righteous indignation. But this is contained and has a lid on it.. only what is acceptable in the scriptures. It is more violent than war and is more devastating than the destruction after the war. "Christ burns the shields." When we confront the devil we do it with cries of distress and tears lest we fall into his trap that has so many men. The violence is to separate yourself from this destruction. Do not look to the rite or the left. Do not walk into this destruction. Its contained in the scripture. With this protection we look at the glory. And we seek the light of His countenance. He uses His word and Spirit as a fire and light. His words roll of our tongue like sweet morsels. There is a fire in our belly. These words are sweeter than honey to our souls. They are like the ultimate attraction to reality. He has chosen His word and name to bless. We begin to feel illuminated through our whole body and soul. This is His power in us. Its like climbing on a rock on a mountain and looking our over all of the circumstances of this life. What is this? Its not actually the physical mountain. No its His foresight of justice and truth making our future bright and blessed. So we can be filled so much that we are satisfied with nothing else.  Mediation on His word begins to be the only satisfying exercise. We come down to the events of this world from the high places. But He gives us a short memory of the earths satisfaction and He gives us a double portion of these spiritual experiences. Remove Reply Quote Notify

942  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Is belief a choice? on: August 26, 2012, 01:20:08 PM Faith is a gift of grace. So i do not see any neutrality in belief. I guess you could say there is saving faith and then anti saving faith. There is not in between. This is the definition of radical salvation. Why do we need to think in terms of the radical? Because we really are not dealing with ideas about salvation but we are living in the reality of two kinds of spiritual relationships. This is the difficult part of spiritual qualities. We cannot see the spiritual relationships and the interaction from these causes. I guess that the more we grow in faith the more we will see this as two distinct relationships. But the path to growing in faith involves a dogmatic focus on the object of our faith. Just because a person seems to have a quality of faith by his general disposition in his relationships does not mean that it is genuine faith. We must look at this beyond the healthy life style and think in terms of all of life and the whole person. So we are dealing with understanding Christ and by this understanding who we are. Sometimes we think of Christ as being obedient to the Fathers will.. like a robot .. so the human experience of His 33 yrs gets dwarfed in His death and resurrection. But we see that Christ is the eternal Son who existed in all eternity from before the creation. Since time began after the fall Christ has always been the substitute before He actually came in human flesh. Since He is the eternal sacrifice for the sins of His people. He is the Lamb of God who came to take away sin who is  at the center of the throne of God. That Lamb has paid the price for people out of every tribe nation and language. So we live in Christ. "My sheep hear my voice and they follow Me." Christ is the shepherd of our souls. Because His foresight is His substitution of His life for our lives then the problems of faith involve our thinking less of His effective working in our lives to be sufficient. We do not naturally think of Christ as eternally present and comparing the physical parts of how humans function in this world to His eternal work. Its natural for us to believe that His two natures do not mix but the bible uses figures of speech in explaining how God condescends to His people. This is an important factor in our experience of faith. We are always trying to come to the scripture without making it fit our personal experience. In our growth in seeking to have more trust in His power, love, faithfulness, kindness, long suffering, and gentleness we are trying to personalize His kingly rule over all eternity. Our natural bend is to just accept these doctrines without finding the application to our faith in a holistic experience. So we get excited about looking at these doctrines but we do not focus on them as Christ applying them to us in this eternal present way. Yes Christ is ruler but not as if He communicated to us all of His properties in a horizontal fashion. This is going from the word itself to the person. "Christ in you the hope of glory. " Let me just say a few more things here. This focus on Christ is extremely violent in the soul. So i am talking here about the experience of His power, love, faithfulness .. kind of flooding the soul. We want to know Christ without vanity and selfish motives. But in seeking Him its natural for us to act as if we are someone that we are not. I guess this is the way we grow. Its either trying to advance beyond our years or becoming timid. In all of this we must believe that the means of our faith in their proper context describe clearly to us our present experience in the form of promises , decrees , and justified truth. When we rest in these truths we begin to rest in Christ in us the hope of glory.     Reply Quote Notify

943  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Christ in us Scriptures on: August 23, 2012, 02:08:44 PM I do not think heaven is far away. Because we are the temple of God. So all of these spiritual beings are present in His word describing them in their present work that is eternal and timeless. And all of the earth, the angels, the cherubim.. and spirits are all before the throne of God giving glory to Him. Whether its glory that is purchased by the Lamb or glory from His judgement never the less we all as it were stand before the throne of God as we acknowledge His rule over all the earth. Christ is eternally present. He is not just locally a high priest. Because He provided us with a defense when He sent His Spirit into the world. So Christ is our eternal substitute who stands in our place that makes all of our lives acceptable to God. How do we understand this relationship to Him in the spiritual communication? Christ not only promises us all things but He communicates these promises to us as we acknowledge who we are as sinners and ask for what we need. So this relationship is focusing on what He has said so that we might know how to grow in our relationship that is communicated to us as new life. So we know Him by listening to His word and we know what we need because we grow in His standard of His faithfulness. So these promises are directed to the desires He has created us with ... not just in a universal sense but in an individual sense. The relationship with Christ through His Spirit is one in which we grow in confidence as we learn to ask Him according to His will. But His will is not separated from His name and authority. This relationship is one in which we see more and more that He loves us beyond what we could ever imagine. So we rise in confidence as we learn how to approach Him according to His promises to us. So that He has not only decided to defend us but in learning that He has condescends to us we learn that He sort of separates us unto Himself in creating a connection through supernatural events to this world and to the invisible hand that orders all of our events. This really is us understanding the voice of the Shepherd. And so He promises to be faithful and we ask for this according to His will. And in this way we command the promises. We command the commands. If we are to be kings and priest of God then we must understand that we have a spirit of mind to live in the authority and name of Christ. A king gives orders that control the events in His kingdom. We have a contained message in the scriptures that forbid us to add to it lest we take for ourselves authority that we do not have. So its not what kind of confidence we display but its what we chain up or add is where we break the containment. Because God has given us a whole and healthy doctrine. We can trust in the containment of the word of God that will meet every need. How can we grow in confidence if we try to act or define the way to approach God that is not holistically healthy for us? He has given us a personal message that addresses not only our circumstances but the needs of our souls and the health of our bodies. And then we have the natural likes and dislikes that are part of our spiritual desires. So we need to know all that we are given in order to understand this holistic experience of our position in His kingdom. The danger is for us to ignore a word or to approach His word with pre conceived ideas. We must learn how to go to the word and let it speak to us. Yes there are basic doctrines what we must understand but doctrine without application is dangerous. Christ has communicated with us in word form. We live our lives by expressing ourselves to others and to ourselves. All of our speech forms even our physical appearance. The word of God is health to our bones. So that our experience in this life is in word form. And God has given us words to open up our souls by how He describes the human experience. We spend a lot of time trying to figure ourselves and others out by some form of communication. This is like a path way in life. We are taught to view people by how words are formed in a culture and repeated over and over again. The art of the christian application is to be able to distinguish between words that take us down a side road. Our experience is only reality as we understand how Christ has defined it and what He is working in relation to us. This is why we always approach this world and our view in comparing His application in His word with what words we trust in. This is the focus in learning how Christ is personal to us.   Reply Quote Notify

944  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Beginning resolution of OSAS/YCLYS on: August 23, 2012, 12:55:41 PM b2 I like your focus on regeneration and the new life. But i cant deny the reality of sin and death in this world. If salvation is a full deliverance from this then it is also a deliverance from the people who participate in this destruction. If in fact we trust other people by what they say then in listening to their particular belief system is very important. We should not assume that they are something they say they are not. This happens in the christian world as well. We just tell people that all their problems are only a matter of believing. But our message of salvation is not just to know God but to know oneself. To be able to measure our weaknesses and strengths and see ourselves before God as loved in this communication. If we just assume that our experience of salvation is just a matter of facts then it would not be accepting that people go through evils and desire justice and resolution. This is why its important for us to acknowledge as the bible teaches that man in his natural bend goes astray from God. Because man wants grace but he does not like God. And in order for man to know God the only way to get grace is from God. But grace is God coming down into mans experience of this world. Its God meeting man where he is at ... at the lowest sin and destruction. Because the truth is that man in acknowledging his sin finds himself ...is the most honorable.. and is has the best opportunity of Gods grace. So instead of ignoring this reality the bible defines the awful predicament of man and then brings relief where he is at.   Reply Quote Notify

945	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Matthew 25:31-46	on: August 23, 2012, 12:02:14 PM
Yes religion is very dangerous. Because we can redefine it into a worldly system that functions on successful principles rather than bringing the free gospel through a message and practical means. Its impossible to get this balance rite in our own power. So its more than just a message that we give to people. Its a holy war to create a society that functions through grace. The gospel message cannot be controlled by man. It gives us the answers to all of mans needs. Its the only message that exposes the motives of men... not only the bad ones but the seeming good ones. But the gospel is the only message that transcends the plans of man and its activity is seen in very insignificant circumstances. It is the only message that can be talked about with wrong motives and miss guided applications and still do what it was intended to do. The pure gospel forces man to take the blows of other men so that its power can be set up as being apart from the plans of men.  946  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Beginning resolution of OSAS/YCLYS on: August 23, 2012, 11:38:31 AM The christian is a man who has the answers. Because God made man so God knows how to holistically meet all of mans needs. This is why we not only have the commands but we have the promises. So God has given us all the power we need through His promises. This holistic power is kind of like electricity. It flows through positive and negative wires. lol This is how the real power is delivered. So we stand in the power of God in the positive message of the gospel that is controlled by our being defended in the curses. The apostle defined the gospel , warned the self righteous and then cursed them.  If the apostle was concerned for himself then he would have spent a whole passage in the epistles showing how he harmed people and the importance of not being completely confident that it was forgotten. The apostle would definitely not been a good politician. But instead because the apostle believed that the gospel was the only message that completely changed a man then he put all of his confidence that the gospel was the final verdict that brought complete resolution so the apostle stood in the blessed state by one declaration. lol So the apostle stood in this grace in the face of all his accusers because he really believed that a blessed man was shielded from the curses by the gospel alone. The apostle was so confident in the final verdict of the gospel that he was willing to suffer these accusations so that he would be the confidence for sinners who were saved by grace. In this he avoided the cursed life.   Reply Quote Notify 947  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Is belief a choice? on: August 23, 2012, 11:11:01 AM Belief is a matter of choice. But we cannot choose on our own. The reason that God has not allowed us to reflect on ourselves as people who are free because we can choose is because in gifting us with our own individual reflection of the image of the perfect man He has made a fail safe way to proceed in this life through complete dependence upon Him for all things. So the danger we face is imaginative images of who we are through our own way of thinking. The danger is adding to the gospel. We have been given value as free moral agents. We have a natural desire to live as long as we can. We have a natural desire to worship God. But these gifts cannot be possessed by us intrinsically. These are always in the form of gifts. Because they are in the hands of God. We cannot make a claim that we own them by our choice. So we are only secure in the original teaching of grace that connects us to the true image of Christ. What is this grace? Its God deciding to send His Son into the world to redeem a people for Himself. How does He redeem them? By doing the work necessary so that all of the transference of properties between God and His elect come through grace. When we are free to choose we are only really free as God has taught us grace. God has come to His people in choosing them because He is free to act according to His own purposes. These purposes are outside of our knowledge. So because God is free to choose then we are free to choose. How has God transferred this kind of freedom to us? Through His unfailing love. He loves us by covenant and He proves it by His faithfulness. Why is our salvation not a display of our own faithfulness and freedom? Because we cannot take these gifts of God and put them in the context of our powers of choice. Rather we reverse the old desires to control our own lives and we focus on Gods created word. All the beginnings of our new selves go back beyond this time sequence in the counsel of God from eternity. We are not temporal beings. This context of Gods created word is taught to us by our being represented by God according to His name. His power, glory and faithfulness. Reply Quote Notify 948  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: America in "End Times" on: August 23, 2012, 10:31:48 AM In all of this end times fiasco weve gotten scatter brained. The bible not only tells us about the future but the word of God is prophetic. These prophecies are not like our relationship with any other book. Rather they come to us in the voice of Christ. And these words that are prophetic are the basis for our faith and security that we know we will end up safe in our Fathers care even tho the things of this world seem to overpower our trust in prophecy. So we have a struggle in matters of believing. And this is the place where our new life meets our experience in this sinful flesh and our constant tension of living in a world that has gone mad. Because these are two distinct worlds. Why does it matter what we focus on if in fact our security is promised to us in the end? Because these two worlds.. the world of our renewed mind and our relationship to our former self are not equal powers in our present experience. Rather we are completely changed... definitively sanctified and surrounded by the care and concern of our sovereign God. And so we do not struggle as if these powers were warring in us to bring us under their dominance but our new man is contained as a new life in word and Spirit. We not only are been declared members of a new kingdom but we have the promises and declarations that give us a new image. The word as it is contained as our new life is all we need to live a life on this earth that is successful in Gods view. So in a sense we go outside of our present earthly experience by setting our minds on things above. The world considers these insignificant things of the powers of another world to have no relation to our future safety. But God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass and He has promised to speak to us in a way that we experience a real refuge. God who dwells in inapproachable lite condescends in a way that gives us freedom and rest from this world and our inner struggles. God has spoken. His word is the final verdict in all matters. His word has determined all of time and it is going on the course as He has planned. But God has decided to work through His people so that He might give us significance in order to reward us when all things are brought to light. He has contained our security and our salvation in the gospel that cannot be negatively effected to stamp it out or redefined so that it loses its power. We have a message that we can focus on that transcends time. This message of the cross brings the reality of love and faithfulness, righteousness and peace...righteousness coming down from heaven and faithfulness springing from the earth. His rule goes from the top down and from the bottom up. These meet together as the significance of our present experience. So that when we have seen Christ we experience these effects that came together at the cross. We are made to rest from our own works.   Reply Quote Notify 949  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Molinism - Middle Knowledge .... on: August 20, 2012, 10:35:57 PM Let me talk about this idea of God watching us. God really does not have eyes or parts. God is eternal and is a Spirit. So when the bible says that God is watching its talking about Gods eye of action. God defines His working in man in this relationship of His watchful eye. And so He defines a man who is in his sins as always having a natural voice that says God is not watching. A lot of people make this watching a moral eye. But this watching is as about as personal as youall ever think of God. And so God who watches His people acts to keep them by His Fatherly care. So there is a very direct contrast rather than a kind of pragmatic watching to see who is sinning.lol Rather God puts a parenthesis of His watchful eye in the covenant context. And so His watching is the voice of Christ known only to His sheep. The problem with us is not really about sin or doing something wrong but its a lack of faith  to believe that our Father is condescending to us in Christ as compared to any earthly relationship with all that we need because He gifts us with everything and this is the catch that we do not consider. This is the sweet juice that we do not suck on so that we are filled with His goodness. Its that He gives us the want to.. the ability to believe that He is who He says He is. And this is really our biggest hurdle to faith. Its believing that God is God and He actually knows how to love us and what we need at all times. This is why He says to draw near to Him in faith. Because when we see God all things are well with us. And so we see that Gods watching is gifting us with ability that we do not think He is looking at because it seems insignificant to us. God always in His watching surprises us with something better than we think we need.  Reply Quote Notify 950  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: America in "End Times" on: August 20, 2012, 09:56:01 PM I think Revelation is focused on how sin and destruction bring about the judgement of man on the earth and not necessarily who is responsible or what nation is going to endure. So we have a world system that continues to develop ways in which men through being their own gods bring about the most painful society. Anytime a society rejects God they spiral down into political and social unrest. The economies of man function as a result of the heart of man. The heart of man is the center of his thought life and then how he develops society. So there are indirect and hidden motives that go beyond what God thinks is righteous. Mans wisdom is focused on the process and how successful man is but God looks at the motives. Man always defines sin in excusing himself while accusing others but God weights each motive of man and He sees the real reason that we do things. With God it is not always successful. With God it is always a view from the heavens above the gods of this earth. Gods view is in the back rooms of the powerful. So nothing is hidden. This is why we see when Christ opens the heavens and is visible from the earth that every level of society will desire to hide under the rocks of the mountains. So you have the normal economies and the political structures exercising power that goes against Christ. Then when the last saint is saved Christ will appear and those who do not know Him will be struck with such terror that they would rather die then go to the judgement. The evolution of a society that grows more and more corrupted is that men who reject God actually have very little value for life. So this is why rulers become more and more controlling. Because God has made it that true leaders deny themselves and they take care of the poor. But when a society rejects God the poor and helpless are taken advantage of. The ot wisdom books does not really divide life up and teach us how to plan our lives. lol But the bible describes a more evil war going on than a man being wise in his own eyes. The bible shows that man is more dangerous when things are at peace and there is prosperity. Because the bible is focused on relationships and not how successful and wise a man is.   The first relationship is what a man thinks of God. This is why there is a natural peace that declines. Because God sees everything so that what is hidden and looks good to the eye man is not detailed enough as God sees. This is why God simplifies the reasons that society grows more and more evil. Because God standard of righteousness is to weigh every thought. Its not that man is successful in his own eyes but its man thinking that God is not watching that is the reason for society declining.   Reply Quote Notify 951  Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: For Our Mbg on: August 19, 2012, 07:45:27 PM Quote from: mylife4him on August 14, 2012, 06:25:03 AM Quote from: mybigGod on August 12, 2012, 12:05:54 PM I am so happy... ive had a change ...i am free... this is gonna be a time of my best writing... once i get that sting of abuse out...i love life Quote Insert Quote Ive been working for Target for about 4 yrs and built up a reputation of working hard and showing up on time. Now they are threatening me... treating me differently.. its a difficult time. I feel like they are trying to destroy my reputation. I'm a bit confused.... has target done something to 'change' you...to set you 'free'? Glad that 'sting' is gone so that now you can focus on your best-yet-writing. No actually that was more of a time of testing... its time to experience a little blessing . lol Reply Quote Notify 952  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Spiritual Experiences on: August 19, 2012, 07:05:55 PM Ive lost so much of myself in meditation that some things in this world have no connection to who i am. I sometimes feel as if i am a totally different person than what i am doing. I guess its just from going in an out of meditation for so long. I cant get enough pleasure in meditation. The experience is like a drawing effect to me. How do you describe a something where you are being changed and it does not seem to involve the physical? lol Although for years i have asked for physical healing of my pain and sometimes it comes after my heart is enlarged where the joy just cannot be suppressed. And some times from being older i feel numb in the meditation because my body cannot contain the experience of the former days but non the less it still is the same drawing effect. Ive shifted to driving a lot driving ....and meditation go hand in hand. I am definitely an outside person. I love the creation all day long. And the mornings seem to just glow in me. But there is a sense in which we feel most purposeful when we are sort of looking at these things are creating future reality before we physically are in the event. This really is forgetting the past and looking on things that are beautiful . The more we focus on this way of life the more we are gonna enjoy it. Remove Reply Quote Notify 953  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Temptation, how to cope on: August 19, 2012, 06:47:38 PM Temptation is strongest when there is a lack of vision. And vision is really the culmination of how we focus on Christ in our understanding Him as all glorious. This is one of the areas where we need to focus on His word and then it will illuminate Christ to us. The word of God is His total created word out of His holiness. And so the physical creation is more then just the elements but it shows Gods attention to detail and the way He forms things so that there is order and symmetry. Because the most good experiences are when we look upon the light of His glory and we begin to experience the holistic effects of the majesty and mystery of God. So we go from just looking on things in a physical way to enjoying the symmetry of Gods unity and His majesty in the created beauty. And this really is more than a surface look at our environment but but its being enlightened to what is behind the creation. Because Gods glory illuminates all of eternity. Its like the difference between our reaction to total darkness and seeing a beautiful sunrise or sunset. I think the light of the glory of God invades us as we look on Gods creating these wonders so that we have a sense of the glory of God in the event. But this is the perfect symmetry of Gods laws, decrees, statutes,  commands, promises as we look on the beauty of the object of His creation. This is evidence that God acts according to His nature and what is produced is the pleasure of the goodness of the beauty that surrounds us.  This is looking on the light.. or the effervescence of the glory behind the visible. Our problem with disconnection, and miss understanding is that we do not experience this life in a holistic way as God designed it. Sin has left us dull, and unable to use our vision in a spiritual sense. So we are given the Spirit and word as the instruments to enliven our hearts so that we begin to see the unity and order of Gods world. In seeing it we begin to grow in our understanding of the things that cannot be seen but are evidenced by the holistic connection we experience in the reality of Gods beauty. Reply Quote Notify 954  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Request for Biblical help on OSAS on: August 19, 2012, 06:12:27 PM When Jesus appeared to the apostle He asked the apostle why he was kicking against the goads? Basically these spiritual truths and realities do not come to people who must be like horses with bridles in their mouths. But the apostle was acting zealously like the teachers of the law who had miss represented the gospel of grace taught in the ot jewish worship books. Paul wanted to be thought of as the teacher of teachers. He wanted to be the most zealous legalist. And so he sought to destroy anyone who did not adhere to the temple rules and worship standards of the Pharisees. But the problem was Paul was seeking righteousness through hate and destruction. But the righteousness that God brought to Israel was through forgiveness. It was a message of grace that could not be compromised. If grace is compromised it is not longer grace. What was the cornerstone of forgiveness? It was not to get acceptance through confession .. one sin for one confession but there was a much deeper problem. Man had a much greater sin than the act of sin. Man had a sin nature imputed to him when Adam fell.  This was what David described as God is not pleased with our sacrifice. But God must change our wills. So in order to change us from the inside out He had to go it alone. Oh maybe we could get human acceptance through confession but we could never get acceptance from God unless He declared us righteous. And this is exactly what David was distinguishing when he described the blessed state of being justified by faith. He was describing a greater work than the animal sacrifices. David was describing the future Deliverer coming and taking care of the sin we could not wash away. God had to remove the Leopard spots. God had to take care of the sin nature. And so we either kick against the goads or what they used to train an ox or we believe that God grants us forgiveness through grace according to His unfailing love. God must be more than a Person who we come to acknowledged our sins. He must be our hiding place. He must be a place where the songs of deliverance surround us. Or the place where our hearts are enlarged in praise and worship. God does not want our sacrifices. These are what we are commanded. But God wants a sacrifice of praise. He wants our hearts. Why would we reject His free acceptance of us and our praise for all of His gifts to us? Why would we resist His free grace on our behalf to show us His unfailing love  for us. Why would we want to glory in our own ability when the most we can find enjoyment on this earth is to give God the glory and seek to see how He has loved us? Dont be like the horse who needed a bridle. But Paul was regenerated and was declared righteous so that he became a true servant of the Sovereign Lord.   Reply Quote Notify 955  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Molinism - Middle Knowledge .... on: August 19, 2012, 05:42:16 PM If God were not sovereign the world would quickly fall into disorder and chaos.And in fact the scripture says that the Spirit Himself holds back evil. What is sovereignty in scripture? It is God doing whatever pleases Him. This kind of sovereignty is described as love meeting mans rebellion and destruction. Because the bible describes the earth in distinct terms from the heavens. Or it makes clear the wide gulf between where God dwells and the responsibility that man has in ruling the earth. Its surprising because the scriptures describe mans rule as a place of death and destruction. Why is it that man is self destructive and without real love? Because man in his nature seeks after dead things. Man worships idols made of gold, silver, wood, stone and bronze. These idols cannot see hear talk or walk. There is only one hope of man returning to his glory. It is holistically being brought back to the grace of God. What is this grace? It is God overcome all of mans destructive tendencies and acts. These destructive behaviors come from the very thoughts of mans heart. From birth man goes astray in his thoughts. He will not think  that God exist. Man by nature avoids God and what God has desired. Its not that man goes out to destroy the world but its that man wants to be god. He wants to rule his little sphere of influence. So God must not only show man that he is not god but God must subdue mans independence. God must teach man how to think correctly. Because in order to love we must be loved. In order for us to understand respect we must be accepted as we are. The only remedy for mans decent into acting according to his lust is that he is accepted by God by grace. The will is not really subdued by brute force. But will is destroyed by God not by destroying the man but by the death and resurrection of Christ. Its destroyed by identity. This is what is so confusing about the christian experience. We think God must overturn our wills by His omnipotence. But God had to do this work outside of mans ability to bring about redemption. God had to do it in Himself. The Father sent the Son to act as the perfect man , die and be raised so that He not only ended sins reign but He conquered death. He took care of sin and the consequences. And this is why we cannot fight against God. Because His work was so successful that He left no room for principles of conduct or ways to be better. The Father actually was one with the Son who responded with perfect obedience so that all who are in the Son are fully accepted in fellowship with our Father. And so God sovereignty gave us full acceptance in the beloved. But God must be completely sovereign or His loved ones would be left in a world of spiritual zombies who actually hate God. What we are talking about here is a Person doing the work and all the other persons who are in His family being accepted in this new relationship. We are all seeking to be accepted all our lives on this earth by grace. And in knowing this we are loved beyond our ability to act correctly.       Reply Quote Notify 956  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Request for Biblical help on OSAS on: August 15, 2012, 08:37:37 AM Jesus taught discipleship and denying yourself. But this is not going outside of the order of salvation. Because the apostle establishes the only valid foundation of putting the flesh to death by the Spirit. So the apostle is kind of putting a parenthesis around our relationship with God as it being done as God does it. The parenthesis is that when we are saved we are placed into Gods family and we cannot be identified with any other father. In Christ is having His image or name. So discipleship is not self denial in the grit your teeth or think positive thoughts. But its how we approach God in light of the understanding of our own needs and His being fully able to do as He has promised. This is approaching God as we are.  The self denial is out realizing that we cannot do one good thing without Him.  This is what Jesus was patterning in His earthly life. He spent whole nites in prayer and communion with our Father. He was not trying to give us a grit your teeth and act religious discipleship but He was exampling a relationship. We come to our Father as sinners in need of mercy.    Reply Quote Notify 957  Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: For Our Mbg on: August 12, 2012, 12:05:54 PM I am so happy... ive had a change ...i am free... this is gonna be a time of my best writing... once i get that sting of abuse out...i love life Reply Quote Notify 958  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Temptation, how to cope on: August 12, 2012, 12:00:15 PM Quote from: mylife4him on August 06, 2012, 08:23:35 AM Quote I mean wouldn't it be great if you were tempted to read the Bible for hours at a time and tempted to spend more time in prayer. Amen, brother! For me, He does do that.... for I find that the more time I make for HIM, the more I WANT to be with Him/NEED to be with HIM ) I am blessed with the desire to read His Words, everyday, meditate/ponder those things which I've read, (meditate on HIS WORDS, not a light switch or whatever) to talk with Him like a child talks to her Papa, to walk with Him and include Him on this journey called life............ ~ wow... now that's what I call, 'tempted'. How can one be in a relationship with anyone and not spend quality time together? I am currently writing another addition to my blog This is what I'd already written the other day before even reading this thread.. It sure is cool how He always finds a Way to spread His thoughts to us/through us. This will be part of a near-future blog post. Quote It is an Amazing Blessing How do you let God's Word become the biggest thing in your life? Well, it's easy. You simply allow yourself to soak in it. That's right! Immerse yourself in it. The more you focus, and lock in on His word, the more motivated you will become to research more and more of it. The more you read, the more you will love it, and the more you love it, the better you will become at discerning what words are meant for you each day. Being in the Word, keeps you hungry for the word... It stirs your soul like nothing else ever could. It is ancient wisdom being revealed that you will know that you already knew, you just hadn't heard it in a long while. It is like des jevu. It feels familiar it fills your heart, feeds your soul, fills your spriit and you know it! It also fills that void empty hole in your heart, it fills that spot where that piece was just missing and you could never figure out a way to fill it, to satisfy the longing, "It is done". It will seem like coming HOME to you, you will become rooted and grounded it it's ALL powerful Love, it's gentle grace, it's caring for your every desire, your every need. "It will be medicine for your bones" Thanks for the encouragement ml4h Reply Quote Notify 959  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Request for Biblical help on OSAS on: August 12, 2012, 10:17:02 AM Thor my position is if truth is gonna resonate with someone its my responsibility to explain it so that there is no question that its free. This i think is what the apostle was trying to convey. They accused him of being antinomian. The religious leaders were asking if God is sovereignty like the apostle is teaching then why not go on sinning since it seems the apostle is teaching that even sin glorifies God. The point of this is confrontation is in a comparison of a set of doctrines that are in themselves successful or mans attempt to reinterpret these doctrines. But this way of approaching grace is not natural to the minds of men. They want the clear direction of their lives mapped out. And so the bible is not secularism. But its a set of doctrines that describe the heart of man and how the mans needs are met in the success of the doctrinal preciseness. We really live a very simple life by just being reminded about the grace of God and learning to be confident in it.lol This is what i have sought to do. Ive tried to show how easy it is for us to look away and become focused on other things. Ive tried to show how we can go beyond our original purpose of glorifying God by enjoying Him forever to create all kinds of diversions with good intentions. But this society is focused on comparing things in scripture that are not fundamental things. Its just as important to avoid details because they dont matter in the end. But this is why we are disagreeing because people are pointing out what they think is important by what they have been taught. And the moment we claim that something wrong is not a big deal the moral people cry foul. lol This happens as a normal human conflict. There is always a got you mentality. Ive said in the past that the doctrines of grace are for my personal way of escaping the responsibility as the other side has described. And i get a three post lecture by Kk about denial. lol  But see im not focused on the illogical and wrong parallels drawn from the scripture that make the lesser truths trump the essential truths. And so we are dealing with the way scripture is used in this power struggle. And its not wrong to always be the one who is being accused of an evil intent. Because the gospel does not offer the other side but its successful in itself. So it demands our absolute submission in the face of true and false accusations. lol   Reply Quote Notify 960  Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Jeremiah the Psalmist Prophet on: August 11, 2012, 07:51:26 PM The prophets acted as high priest for the elect. Because they were both people who blessed and cursed. The prophets were not just men who received new revelation from God but they were skilled with Gods word. Their responsibility was not just to warn the people but to see the destruction of the wicked through faith in the curses of the law. Because no man when confronted with his abuse of power will listen. The prophets were right and the powerful were wrong. But to just say that the prophets where there to warn the abusers is like a person who only talks but does not walk. This is why the prophets saw the destruction because they were prophesying from applying the curses. lol Faith not only requires us to see the salvation of God but it also requires us to see the destruction of the wicked. Because as long as the abusers are able to do what they are used to doing then a lot of people are gonna get hurt. Its like God was saying... to the person who was drowning. I sent you a boat why didnt you use it? Well this is the responsibility of the prophets to appeal to God on behalf of those who were abused. And if you look God was not just angry at the lack of doctrinal precision but it was His words of judgement about what was going on in society. You see this with Moses... God wanted to destroy Israel at Mount Sinai. But Moses appealed to God on behalf of the elect. I do not believe it is consistent to say that Moses was not angry at the reprobates. That would make Moses a party to the wicked destruction of Israel. But the elect were even deceived. And so God divided the people on two sides. Which is a picture of God coming to His church in judgement to protect the elect. And so when we are abused it is personal. This is why we are protected from the hate from that abuse. Because we are able to learn righteous indignation through the curses. The healthy doctrine is a holistic doctrine. As God has made us to endure in this world He has given us both love and righteous indignation. That is why these things are taught in scripture. Because it is the only place where it is contained by God.