9769 Forums / Main Forum / Culture War/ Sacred Vs, Secular/ Etc... on: December 28, 2005, 03:39:04 PM We are not necessarily a democratic nation with a voting majority as the focus for change. We are a republic with the leaders covenanting that they will do according to the constitution with the oversight of the religious leaders. Really if you are thinking that party spirit will get that change you are looking for you are not understanding the way our nation was formed or the constitution and how we are set up. Actually only calvinist would understand our political system because it was from the original members of the church that were influenced the designers of our constitution. The real connection of political leaders and the people is when they put their hand on the bible , that should solve the imperilism problem but unless the spiritual leaders begin to speak out we are not going to have any accountablity to the covenant with the people. You know what happens to men who rule without moral direction. Anyway we covenant theologians understand the problem and we have a multiple problem. At least the arminist only have the world that hates them. We have the world that hates our message and the US religious community that cannot swallow our message. The history of our country has degenerated from calvinism to semi plagenism to pleagenism to hedonism. Thank God He is still in control. Just pray that we do not get what we deserve. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9770 Forums / Theology Forum / "let God Love You" on: December 28, 2005, 08:13:17 AM Quote I posted this in the broadcast questions folder and thought I'd cross post it here and see what kind of help you guys could give me. I'd really appreciate your insights. I'm reading Scandalous Freedom and I really love it so far. I love Steve and listen whenever I can. In the book, and often in the tapes and radio programs, Steve says that the way we get better is to "let God love you". That really sounds great, and I certainly want to believe it. The problem I'm having is that it sounds an awful lot like Carl Rogers "unconditional positive regard" ala "Person Centered Psychotherapy". Rogers believed that our problems were caused by the judgement and manipulation of significant others in our formative years and that by exposure to someone who accepted us unconditionally (the therapist) we would get better. My questions are a) how do I "let" God love me? and what scriptural basis is there for this view? How is this not taking a concept from secular psychology that has become an unquestioned component of the western worldview and attributing it to scripture, much like people often do with the phrase "God helps those who help themselves"? I'm not being a smart alek, I really am trying to reconcile this with how much I love Steve and need his message. And I fully expect that I am missing a key point and just need to be pointed in the right direction. David Tolbert That is a great question. The thinking is that in scripture we have a natural leaning toward a pride that we are blinded to. We think even as christians that if we got something for free that would make us feel uneasy and we would seek to discount that thinking as a lazy way of facing our problems. In other words we want to do something to please someone because we feel guilty for having evil thoughts and actions and desires. We are also programed by other people who have this problem in our families. The second thing is that we have a conscience that speaks louder than any other voice in us. We know that when the law and the conscience get together that we are going to be told that we are not doing what we are required to do. Our natural response is to do something to aleviate the consceince by a performance. We practice this so much that it becomes second nature to us. Now this is not just a thinking process but a power over our disposition. It is a mindset that holds us under its power. Why would the apostle spend so much time reminding us of our postion in Christ and the fact that we are not condemned if it wasnt a problem? ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9771 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 28, 2005, 07:50:54 AM Quote I would have to agree with Joker on this one. This, along with the teaching of God's loving only the elect are the main problems I have with Calvinism taken to its extreme. I do not pretend to understand all the mechanisms of saving faith, but this I do know, where the gospel is proclaimed, people will some to a saving knowledge of Christ. A question that may sharpen our focus on the issues at hand: Will there be people who will spend a lost eternity in hell, who would have been in heaven had I been faithful to share the gospel of the saving grace of Christ? I know that the hyper-Calvinist, in fact maybe most Calvinists in general, would respond in the negative, citing the soverign grace of God in salvation. As true as that may be, God has still given us the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to everyone. We are to urge, to beseech, lost souls to be reconciled to God. And yes, as we go, we go in His strength, delivering His word, depending on the conviction of His Spirit to reach the hearts of those who are lost. We cannot save anyone, but we are to share His message with a lost and dying world. Bill would you rather be sent out to spread the word in a state of guilt thinking that the message depended on you ?Or having a warmness and natural usage of your abilities knowing that it doesnt matter in the end whether you give them the rite words? God will do the saving anyway. Just give them the gospel. God decrees that you will be in a situation and share your faith in the future. He decreed when the person you talk to will believe the message. You can relax and be yourself, no guilt, no second guessing. 9810 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 19, 2005, 10:47:52 PM Quote Peach, thanks so much for your graciousness. Sometimes, it's tough to question .. I miss Steve not being here because he didn't hesitate to bring forth questions that stirred him ... much braver than myself. I'm a little weird sometimes .. but one thing that is just as important as the answer of a given answer is the delivery of that answer. One can learn MUCH through just the ' delivery ' .. And Joker ... oh yeah! That is so great! Encourage each other in Him .. and let God be God, and let us, be ' just us '. And, let's just help each other in the interim from falling flat on our face! heartuggs - God loves everyone in His dispostion, but not everyone is going to be in heaven, thats obvious. So obviously He has not exercised His will because He there are certian persons who do not experience the saving power of God. Yet everyone exist because of Gods kindness and His general love. He extends to all men common grace and some can have a taste of that power without their wills being change by that power.God even extends to all men the free offer of grace but not all men respond to that offer. So it is obvious that some men reject the offer of God. Does that make Gods will too weak? No men naturally hate God because their minds and wills are naturally at odds with God and they show it by their actions. God calls the unregenerate mind empty because there is nothing of value in their thoughts spiritually. The fact that He allows men another day to repent in being exposed to the preaching His word is a sign of His kindness. The problem with men is that they are dead spiritually and so their disposition has no spiritual affection. That is why they need new life inorder to respond to the call of salvation. 9820 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 18, 2005, 07:50:04 AM Quote Quote In fact i thank God that my salvation depends totally on Him, i know He will not fail when i do all the time. So what role does faith have in this? Romans 4:9 "... Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." Faith is believing and trusting in Christ. In my self i cannot muster up faith it is a gift. An unbeliever is dead to spiritual things ,The natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God because they are foolishness to him neither can He know them because they are spiritually discerned.There is no one who seeks God no not one.For by grace are you save through faith and this is not of yourselves but it is a gift of God lest any one should boast. Salvation=gift.The wind blows where it pleases you here its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going so is everyone born of the Spirit.We have been choosen in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight, in Him we have redemption though His blood in accordance with the pleasure of His will. When we are regenerated we are given new life and we can see our need for Christ and the value of His death and the definiteness of that death for us personally in seeing our sin. We then trust in Christ as the only hope of everything in life and death. We rest on Christ and His work in all of our trials and diffuculties of this life. We believe that without Him we can do nothing.We trust Him moment by moment. We take of Christ and we accept all of His demands on us tho not perfectly. 9822 Forums / Main Forum / To Be (legalistic), Or Not To Be.. That Is The ? on: December 17, 2005, 04:01:35 PM Legalism is trying to attach the concept of faithfulness to my justification. It is also not reminding me that i have the righteousness of Christ for my final justification and for my confidence in my life of sanctification. If the person has no rest in the work of Christ in His message its probably legalism. Its also focussing on the practical and potraying the doctrinal as secondary. Its \"God will help you when you help yourself\" teaching. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9823 Forums / Prayer Requests / Now For Something Totally Different on: December 17, 2005, 03:51:54 PM Im praying for you. I hope every thing will be alright and you will begin to resume your life after this trial. Dont over do it, take rest. God will provide. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9824 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 17, 2005, 03:45:43 PM I dont mean to introduce any other concept in my post other than the defence of Calvinism as it relates to free will. I just think it is wrong to paint Calvin and his doctrine as mean and God as represented as the mean oger. Any one who recieves salvation must have an outside will exercised over their own will in order for that to be a regeneration. Ariminism and Calvanism agree on this point because we both acknowlege grace through faith and not works. I was just pointing out the hyprocrisy of the attack on Calvin. In fact i thank God that my salvation depends totally on Him, i know He will not fail when i do all the time. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9825 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 17, 2005, 02:41:39 PM Quote To me calvinism is a load of junk.. It means that God has a sledgehammer and may not choose to save my 8 year old son just for the pleasure of burning him. That's not the God I know. In Romans the Bible says that God places stumbling blocks in everyone's path, not to turn them away from Him, but to cause man to look TO Him. Everyone I personally know that got caught up in that movement ended up drifting away from the faith, just like most legalists. I know about legalists... I was one once. THANK GOD I'M FREE! So you believe that if your son rejects will Christ by his free will all of his life and then dies and then realizes he is wrong and begs for heaven who chooses to send him to hell at the day of judgement. Even in your system of free will you still have rules and Christ still chooses. No one would want to go to hell if faced with it physically. I say Christ chooses before the creation of the world, you say that Christ chooses when its to late. Whats the difference a spec of time in eternity? 9839 Forums / Theology Forum / Sale On Righteous Clothing on: December 15, 2005, 04:38:08 AM Thanks Bill, With justification we have the substitutionary atonement and the imputed righteousness apart from human work both as a means to our justification and in our sanctification in each act of obedience and our acceptability to the Father. So in justification our faith is a resting faith in the finished work of Christ and our faith in sanctification is an active faith on the bases of His imputed righteousness to us.So unless we are resting in the finished work of Christ we are not going to be acting from a good motive. And unless we trust in that imputed righteousness we are going to think better of ourselves in our obedience than we should and thus take the glory due to Him on ourselves.He gets all the glory! ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9848 Forums / Main Forum / Out There on: December 11, 2005, 01:13:10 PM Thanks life lover, i too have suffered depression in the past where everything narrows to a negative existence and what is out there seems so far away. Thoughts take over the dominance of life and things social become extremely diffucult. Its good to see you expressing your feelings. That can help. You know in the experience of the depression there is a certian change in our disposition that comes over us and it is hard to get away from. Then the other things of life irratate what is going on inside of us. Now if there is a God he knows what we are all about and what this terrible experience is all about. He wants us to be humble, but we sorta want to go farther than he designed in our negative mood. Yet because we go to far He goes there with us. The problem is that we do not sense Him there because we do not feel good enough to. So what He wants is for us to tell Him exactly how we feel and what is going on with our fears and asking Him to help us. The more we do this the more we feel one with Him. He came to earth and took on depression and all the problems and endured the cross He not only took ours but he took everybodies at the same time. Think about Him enduring all the depression of the whole world and then having to die. He knows intimately about our feelings because He experienced them intensely. What needs to be done is there needs to be a connection of Him becoming our out of that mood by Him speaking to us just the rite words to sooth our downess. Thats why i pray to Him, because i can have relief by a supernatural tonic ,a powerful pill. If i can get Him to communicate with me then i will have that pill. He has spoken in His word the bible and because he talks about depression in the book with His words come a breathing life into our depression. He breaths into us life. We bring our bad mood to Him and His revelation in telling Him what we are going through and letting Him communicate life to us by breathing on us by the word. Try it. It will be little by little as you go and pray and read. You are so blessed to be able to be in a situation where you feel helpless because that is where He can help. 9855 Forums / Main Forum / How Dare We ... Redux on: December 10, 2005, 10:43:59 AM . In himself. Let him pretend what he will, he hath slight thoughts of sin; at least, of sins of daily infirmity. The root of an unmortified course is the digestion of sin without bitterness in the heart. When a man hath confirmed his imagination to such an apprehension of grace and mercy as to be able, without bitterness, to swallow and digest daily sins, that man is at the very brink of turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, and being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Neither is there a greater evidence of a false and rotten heart in the world than to drive such a trade. To use the blood of Christ, which is given to cleanse us, I John i. 7, cotton ball. ii. 14; the exaltation of Christ, which is to give us repentance, Acts v. 31; the doctrine of grace, which teaches us to deny all ungodliness, cotton ball. ii. 11, 12, to countenance sin, is a rebellion that in the issue will break the bones. At this door have gone out from us most of the professors that have apostatized in the days wherein we live. For a while they were most of them under convictions; these kept them unto duties, and brought them to profession; so they \"escaped the pollutions that are in the world, through the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ,\" 2 Pet. ii. 20: but having got an acquaintance with the doctrine of the gospel, and being weary of duty, for which they had no principle, they began to countenance themselves in manifold neglects from the doctrine of grace. Now, when once this evil had laid hold of them, they speedily tumbled into perdition. This is convicting when you think that Gods grace is a ticket to a life of ease as i sometimes get caught up in. 9861 Forums / Main Forum / Fun Forum on: December 09, 2005, 07:25:13 AM Quote Quote There is nothing pleasant about my life and the only joy i have is when i focus strictly on Him. God makes us holy, not happy. Happiness is a choice we make. An attitude, perhaps. A way of looking at things. There is no joy apart from Truth, and the Word is a tangible reminder of Truth. A former pastor in Miami said it this way, "God is concerned with our character, not our comfort." At one point I didn't see anything good about my circumstances. Felt like the so-called Abundant Life was a cruel joke. But then I realized the problem was my definition of good and when I adjusted that, I saw that, while the circumstances in my life weren't pleasant, the circumstances aren't my life. Life is good, because He is my life and He is good. I'm not alone in the circumstances. There is a point that will be revealed one day. Someone once told me that before we come to the Lord, our lives are like paddle fans going in circles, spinning faster and faster out of control. When we become aware of the gospel, it's like reaching out for the pull chain, then holding on. As we do, the fan spins slower, gradually. By the time it comes to a complete stop, we're in heaven, beholding His glory face-to-face. Blessings. Peach Thanks Peach, You are very insightful and encouraging. I did not know you responded to me until now. I enjoy reading your post. Its hard when circumstances press in on a christian. There is a feeling that the world gets smaller and the temptations change from things to doubt and fear. Two things here, I see it as a fuel for pleading the promises and commanding the Lord to accomplish in me a greater understanding of His power by how my circumstances turn out. And then being able to cast my cares on Him in a more secure way than i have in my past experiences so that i can demonstrate that my confidence is not in myself but in Him. I feel like life is what i have seen in child birth. There are the times when we go through the 9 months and all the pain and all the insecurities and then when it comes time to deliver we experience extreme dire circumstances all that to hem us in and keep us from looking to ourselves for sustenence and our own ability to over come until we go through it and deliver the actual promise of deliverance that happens in that birth of light that increases our faith and our dependence on Him9870 Forums / Main Forum / Double Predestination on: December 05, 2005, 09:09:37 PM When I speak of regard to be thus adjusted in the universal system, I mean the regard of the sum total; all intelligent existence, created and uncreated. For it is fit, that the regard of the Creator should be proportioned to the worthiness of objects, as well as the regard of creatures. Thus, we must conclude, that such an arbiter as I have supposed, would determine, that the whole universe, in all its actings, proceedings, revolutions, and entire series of events, should proceed with a view to God, as the supreme and last end; that every wheel, in all its rotations, should move with a constant invariable regard to him as the ultimate end of all; as perfectly and uniformly, as if the whole system were animated and directed by one common soul. Or, as if such an arbiter as I have before supposed, possessed of perfect wisdom and rectitude, became the common soul of the universe, and actuated and governed it in all its motions. J Edwards We describe original sin as from a passive decree of God. He did not tempt to sin but He was as Edwards describes here.9880 Forums / Theology Forum / Encouragement For The Depressed- Spurgeon on: December 03, 2005, 12:27:53 PM There is a real delima that we are confronted with in our journey toward the celestial gates. It is when we have drifted from the refuge of the Lord and feel as though we have sinned enough to depart that we are tempted to feel as tho our praising Him is pointless. Yet it is always good to praise Him. It is always good to sing praises to Him. Circumstances should not determine our desires but rather our relationship to Jesus in these lean times are the determiner of our praizing Him. There is in creation of the universe a design for us to have examples of the attributes of God for us to visualize His revelation in that creation. On a cool night far from the illuminate light of the big cities we can look at the lights in the sky, and get a glimpse of the eternality and the understanding of who it is that is a Person of intricate details to the smallest degree in our lives. Even when we are falling we are being sustained by Him as He sustains the stars in their orbits. He upholds us with His power in our falling. Even tho we have been exiles in our circumstances where everyone has forgotten us and our friends have judged us gone forever, He is holding us from falling completely. He is bringing us to understand that nothing in this world is worth trusting in as the supreme object than Him. We praise Him in this delima because His grace is more powerful than our sin. So in our fallen state He is reversing the effects in us and healing us, and closing up the wound to be forgotten forever by Him in His Son. He is renewing us and gathering us along with the other humble ones to praise Him alone. Our God made a covenant with Abraham that He would make Him a father of many nations and that His children would be as the number of stars. We are Abrahams children by spiritual birth and have the same spiritual privileges promised in that covenant. We are one of those stars being upheld in that vast heavenly light show. Yet looking up beyond the stars we are confronted with a dark mysterious show of eternity, that is a bottomless view of space of eternal deminsions. There is the display of the might and the glory of God in His holding us up by His all seeing eye and His design of our lives by His infinite understanding. Yes just as He is sustaining those heavenly lights from His eternal abode in that dark mysterious space, He is bringing us to become a more bright star of eternal lumination of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Do you feel His presence. Dont let Satan convince you that you are beyond His care. Go to the night and think of His power to uphold the universal display of heavenly lights. Sing to Him in your darkest hour. It is fitting, normal , realistic to bless Him with our lips. To God be the glory!9906 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 01:46:53 PM I think in looking at the present condition of the church that we are revisiting the dark ages. Wait a minute i know what you are about to say. I dont mean to put any particular church in the mix because i think God has His remnant and He will get that last convert. But its not so much that there are not good knowlege out there but that it is so hidden that it is as if it were not out there. The majority of the churches have become institutions for what ever needs are there to meet. That in itself is not a bad thing. I mean there are instutions that offer something for a price, you know like the dark ages. It just is a more safisticated sceme than the days of Martin Luther. In fact unless we take a look at what spiritual worship is and focus on historical worship as the means for renewal we will only be falling into the darkness as if we had no bible and the ability to understand it. The agency of the church is Christo centric with a very simple but profound supernatural message. Freegrace offered! We have tried to explain free in relation to morals and that whole calvin arminian mixed in a persons theology, really free is really free in the right message. Free is protected by the 5 points not just to gain a spirit of unity. 9907 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 01:27:01 PM Quote Laws were meant to be lived by the way. Meditating on them is not a bad thing and has its place to be sure, but it's like thinking about eating. As long as you don't just think about food, plan your menu and contemplate the benefits that the food will bring in the future you will be fine. I know i have heard this before. It is the 20th century montra. There are the commands and there are the indicative. I hear this all the time, yet it leaves me thinking the wrong way about relationship in Christ. To me doing involves the passion that i draw from myself not from the guilt layed on me by other persons. I hear application to principles all the time but few examples of those applications. I really think we need to consider that we do very little of what we are commanded to do and so we need to take a more careful look at the atmosphere we live in and we enjoy in our doing. Look there are 10000000000000000000 of books on doing and we have more sin in the church than we have ever had before. Whats wrong? ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9908 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 01:20:26 PM Quote Can you read this passage over and over again for me and ask God to recreate in you His life and show you His eternal existence? Ok you are not just questioning my doctrine or beliefs, now you're basically questioning my salvation. Which is incredibly lame. I have tried to help you open up your mind a bit. You don't want to which is fine. SOmehow you think prattling off scripture and getting your propositions a lined up in a row is the extent of Gods ability to work in a person. Saying you are dependent but not surrendering your mind- clinging to your propositions is a deeper problem than you seem to realize. But it's ok. It's hard. Praise God for sending a saviour. As long as your faith in Jesus is genuine you will be ok. Im sorry that you take offense to what i asked. I would not ask you to do any thing that i do not do although not in perfection. I am not questioning your salvation but i am simply saying that all of us would be better off if we were going toward a more profound relationship with God through His word. I did not say anything about your salvation. It is not my place to question you personally. Maybe one day i will paraphrase a psalm that has to do with perseverance. A truely gracious view of our struggles. 9912 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 07:12:08 AM Oh the love of God how wide and deep. It goes to the deepest recesses of being. It covers the greatest sin and its love recreates a joy out of sorrow. How long will it be till that love has no competition, until faith becomes sight. It is a love that cause all other supposed loves to get lost in that love. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9913 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 07:00:21 AM See here is what i read over and over. The law of the Lord is perfect restoring or reviving the soul. The focus in contemplation is on the law of the Lord because my being a being is dependant apoun the divine breathing into the soul ,life by that breath. I live to be breathed apoun. That is what restores or it recreates what is missing inside of me so that it becomes whole. When i expose my mind to the law it is a light that is beeming from heaven that opens up the love of oneness that shines down into my being. It is the closest relational existence in a being to being experience in the universe. It is a oneness that recreates a completeness. Every space in the universe and in eternity is filled up with Him in which He is the all in all, that is the sustainer of each atom in any time existence. It is the power of someone in space in whom my being exist in His space for the purpose as to it beginging for Him and is ending in Him that makes my purpose real to me. That oneness in Him and His action in me is what makes my beings purpose dissappear in its present state and recreates a new state in His purposing to bring Himself the glory as my glory is lost in His glory, mine ceases to exist, for the purpose of ultimate oneness in His Son. So my getting lost or loosing myself is only in Someone who i am completely dependent on in that oneness in Him in His relationship with His Father in the Trinity. Can you read this passage over and over again for me and ask God to recreate in you His life and show you His eternal existence? ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9914 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 06:39:09 AM See here is what i read over and over. The law of the Lord is perfect restoring or reviving the soul. The focus in contemplation is on the law of the Lord because my being a being is dependant apoun the divine breathing into the soul ,life by that breath. I live to be breathed apoun. That is what restores or it recreates what is missing inside of me so that it becomes whole. When i expose my mind to the law it is a light that is beeming from heaven that opens up the love of oneness that shines down into my being. It is the closest relational existence in a being to being experience in the universe. It is a oneness that recreates a completeness. Every space in the universe and in eternity is filled up with Him in which He is the all in all, that is the sustainer of each atom in any time existence. It is the power of someone in space in whom my being exist in His space for the purpose as to it beginging for Him and is ending in Him that makes my purpose real to me. That oneness in Him and His action in me is what makes my being dissappear in its present state and recreates a new state in His purposing to bring Himself the glory as my glory is lost in His glory, mine ceases to exist, for the purpose of ultimate oneness in His Son. So my getting lost or loosing myself is only in Someone who i am completely dependent on in that oneness in Him in His relationship with His Father in the Trinity. Can you read this passage over and over again for me and ask God to recreate in you His life and show you His eternal existence? 9916 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 26, 2005, 04:36:20 PM Quote I think ML is right in giving Merton a chance, when it comes to contemplative stuff. I am not sure how you set aside thinking...which is probably more lingo than something literal...but I can say that I have neglected the experience in favor of the rationally objective and I have neglected the rationally objective in favor of the experiential. The reason...I chose to except the false dichotomy that these things are at odds with each other....that the rational is at odds with the experiential and the experiential is at odds with the rational. At the very least, I used to force myself to think rationally when I felt the experience was driving the boat and when I was feeling really dry, I tried forcing myself to make the rational experientially real, which never happened..so I faked it. BTW, that's all Immanuel Kant, rather than Jesus, so to hell with the false dichotomies Smiley You can live a whole life, rather than a fragmented one, in Christ. I have a little bit of a different take on this. First of all the mind leads in any religious understanding. That is a just basic principle about faith. Experience follows the rational. If the faith has a misconception of understanding truth then the experience will be mysticism rather than true to faith. Calvinisim is the offers the absolute balance between rational and experience. The understanding of who God is and who man is will protect a man from degrading into mysticism. I dont see that it is an either or and that some people have a better grasp on one or the other. It really is the understanding and growth in the knowlege of God that deepens a persons experience. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9917 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 26, 2005, 12:01:44 PM Thanks, My experience in contemplation which has been 30 yrs is that when the mind is engaged in ideas, they transform into propositions that form the basis of truth. To not have a mind veiwing an idea is to not have a mind activity which would eliminate the ability to proposition. Contemplation equals activity which has an energy source. If that energy source is ignored by not contemplating then it is just wasted in the realm of time. True contemplation leads to a rise in energy toward a physical exersition. Contemplating non existance does not lead to a complete usage of rational abilities. Ability in the rational process purposes purpose from that natural process of energy. 9925 Forums / Theology Forum / Mysticism And Christianity on: November 26, 2005, 07:13:40 AM Quote Since religion is not neccessarily spiritual let us consider that for men the mystery of his existence has been religiously explored by all manner of thought and inquirey. Truth is subject to the Creator of it and they who declare it are vindicated by what the unknown holds for them. Naturally, men regard what is not seen is imaginary: evil as a concept is invisible but we see it all the Time. Paul declared that what is invisible shall bring to nothing what is visable. Christianity is full of mysticism and surprises. And our faith which is invisible as a concept is visible in the conduct of our life and the nakedness we stand before God. To homogenize all spiritual doctrines is the corruption of the pure truth which extends only from the Creator. His doctrine is stated in the Ten Commandments and the given Law. The Son gave us the method to fulfill the requirements of The Law of God, with regard to salvation. We are subject to the mercy and forgiveness of God a truly light burden, As promised. snookyhook I agree that as long as you have a God that can do miracles and break into the natural order of things there will be the mystical. But our discussion is not about the mystical but about a pholosophy call mysticism. That is we are discussing what authority the word has in the whole of life. The bible defines those inner workings of the heart that are subjective but leaves alot of these workings to be mysteries. We can understand ourselves by Gods revelation as well as understanding who God is and what His will is. There is mystery in who God is ,also. We go to the revelation and we place our trust in its limits as to those truths we should know. So there are unseen workings that we can know that are mystical that are layed out in the scriptures. These are what we submit to. 9927 Forums / Break Room / So, How Do Yew Meditate? on: November 25, 2005, 02:28:12 PM You know that allegory is necessary sometime to send a message. Here i am the past two days in my mediation in which i open the door of a specific psalm trying to leave the 20th century evangelical empire and entering into the pryer centures by going into a Psalm. So i close the door behind me and inside the psalm is the presence of the Holy Spirit bidding me to experience a more simpler existence. There is many of the revival books on the shelves in this room all full of dust. Yet they still glow with power, the powere of justifying faith with no strings attached. No sales pitches, no offers of righteousness for a price, no temple courtyard tv programs with the latest with the latest systems to endourse. There in that room is the simple gospel with an over wheming presence for a real sinner and a spiritual pauper without a theological education and an endorsment from the latest teacher. No its just me and my bible and the Holy Spirits illumination shutting out all of the supposed infused righteous people to condemn my status. There is no price in this psalm just simple reality. Oh to be with some of the more simple ways of life, no tv, no radio, no alot of authorities that have infultrated modern society. Just the danger of imment death because of the lack of medical remedies. Yes but where would i rather be? In the desert or in Ejypt? Can i possibly realize that promises from religious men about being sheilded from declension in the churchs is a lie? We really are declining you know? Maybe we need more people wearing rags and churchs meeting in homes to free us from these religious idols. Oh to have a simple retreat to a feild to here the gospel preached by men with not much money but just sold on the gospel of grace and a personal encounter with the Living God apart from all of the religious idols. Oh for the simplicity of the Power Of THE Holy Spirit to be manefested on a grass feild and an open hand without strings attached to cause the attention to be pulled away from the power of God. I think our attention spans would go up if all of us practice spiritual worship with much care for the objects. Lets focus on the important things in the spiritual realm. Lets seek Him really, until we loose all the things and the idols, and the temple objects of insignificance then there will be a return to the revivals of yester years. I dont want to leave this room, i feel like a pesant. 9930 Forums / Break Room / So, How Do Yew Meditate? on: November 25, 2005, 12:49:21 PM Believing is the only way to have a since of security in life. To believe is to acknowlege a dependence on someone else in a moment by moment experience. That is taking that security of salvation that is in Him. The centrality of believing is a need to have the person come to your rescue. You see in Him the only way to be delievered because He is righteous and you are not. That righteousness is so important in who He is that He needed to impute it to you so that you could be righteous in yourself. That is the reason He delievers you in all of your circumstances. That is the reason that He is accessable to your comfort and your security. For a saint believing in Him is accepting that His righteousness was imputed to me and my sin has been taken care of at the cross. That is the central power in believing that is trusting in a Person and what He has done on my behalf. That is where the power of security exist. When i trust in Him in this way then my confidence to communicate to Him is securily confined as Him being my secret refuge in a public adversarial life. Believing is not just a one time transaction of His righteousness but is a continual going to that place of security, that place of trust and being delievered from these human delimas that are self inflicted or that come apoun us. Believing is a repeated montra on the lips of the righteous, just as Christ confessed His Fathers authority all through the gospels. It is the essential element in approaching a benevolent Father to experience the power of illumination in our meditation. It is comming with dependent words on our lips such as ,it take refuge in You, i trust in You, rescue me, deliever me,turn your ear to me, be my rock, hear my cry, come quickly. All these phrases are powerful lines in a believing in the heart. That continued believing in Him leads you to trust in Him as the only stirdy foundation on which you can stand. When you experience believing you will experience power and peace that is evangelical righteousness that has been imputed to you by sheer mercy and grace and even though the cry of you heart and conscience is that you do not deserve His gift you will cast that doubt to the wind because of your experince in that security. Only Satan would like you to hold onto that doubt so that He can convince you to dash yourself against that gracious Rock. The reality is that the unsaved who have not experienced the struggle of believing go head long into that Rock and are crushed. Not you though because of your confession and your constant struggle to believe. Yes that is evangelical believing mixed with corruption but solid because of His. Knowing that that place of trust is there is the other central power in persevering in believing. That place is not going to be pulled from you. He will be there to go to without reseverations ,without conditions, with out finite purposes as His intentions such as responding to some bessetting sin and aimed at you to punish you. In believing we see Him as always faithful, full of mercy, unfailiing love, compassionate, blessing. That is who we are dependent on in all of life. There are no intentions in Him to destroy us or harm us. What confidence we have in believing is a confidence that is 100 percent on Him in which He transfers His confidence in that imputed righteousness to us and believing is that power of confidence of another Person indwelling us in reality, that being God the Holy Spirit as our advocate as a immanent Person in our experience on earth. Unless we accept imputed righteousness we will not experience the Holy Spirits presence in a strong way. We will not go to God under any circumstances because we will draw back by corrupting our confidence in looking to our own righteousness as the means of believing. We must understand soveriegn grace and its power to accomplish what we cannot accomplish in ourselves. We must experience a transforming power in believing just as we experienced it when we first believed. You remember that radical transformation in your first confession to Him dont you? What you forgot was the simplicity in trust Him for that grace. Confess Him again, come to Him the same way you did at first. You have that hunger in you, it just is more of a struggle to see it because you are used to Him.

9714	Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church	on: January 18, 2006, 03:28:42 PM
The doctrine of justification by faith is so important in our recieving of rewards. Some people think that when we are justified by faith, it is just a declaration of righteousness and not an actual imputation of Christ righteousness. When they do not think through whole counsel of God they make a wrong inference as to the future rewards. I used to think that the motive for obedience was through my faithfulness I one day would recieve a reward. My error in judgement was that it was based solely on my faithfulness. This not being biblical caused me to make judgements about my good deeds based apoun a faulty standard of my own imagination and helped increase my pride. Until i went to the confession and understood the thinking on justification by faith it was a source of pride in me and there was no joy. First i needed to see that my faithfulness was predetermined by God before the foundation of the world. He provides me the grace to be faithful, by pre gracing my obedience, and giving me grace to not do those things that are disobedient. So when i think of being faithful i think of it in terms of Gods grace. When i am justified i am given the righteousness of Christ. It is not His actual righteousness but it is through His righteousness that my pre graced choices to obey are seen as righteous. If justification was only an entrance into salvation then my sanctification would only work if i were faithful. My sanctification would depend apoun me only then i would need to have an imagined standard for my faithfulness and then the recieving rewards would be a source of pride in me. Pride is sin and leads to self sufficiency which leads to more sin. Pride makes us hard and instead of rejoicing in Christ we logicaly by our semi plagenistic leanings in our false thinking on justification will be drawn away from the principles of soveriegn grace. Justification is an eternal reality in our relationship in Christ. We will always be dependent on Christ even in heaven. We will worship Him because it is through Him that we are righteous. We are given eternal life the moment we believe and that life is in Christ. We rest from our own works and we trust in His work. Our new obedience is still corrupted and so we need Christ obedience to be righteous. We always see ourselves falling short of the standard even on our percieve most obedient moment. Our faithfulness is so tied to Christ that our good deeds will not be an issue as to why we enter heaven.This is not bad for our self image. We are not body soul and spirit we are body and spirit. There is no existence of an animal kind. Our self image only pulls us down to the earth and the world system. We are body yes but our bodies were made for dependence on Christ. We are body and spirit so we have the instant ability to worship the transcendent there is no inbetween reality.Light the fire of total depravity and justification by faith and you will burn this inbetween imagination to the ground. Identity in Christ gives us all the good confidence we can possibly stand. Our good is found in Christ and that goodness is the only reason we obtain eternal life. This is the paridigm and confidence we have to rest in Christ in our perseverence here on earth. When we enter heaven we will recieve rewards for the good but these rewards will be seen as acceptable only by His work through eternity.

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Forums / Main Forum / Believe

on: January 15, 2006, 04:28:02 PM

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Helpful thoughts, but what are the mental and/or emotional indicators of believing, having faith , or being sure?

Human faith is not saving faith. Human faith is trusting in something or someone .Faith must have an object. If i want to sit in a chair then the object which is the chair is what i trust in to hold me from falling. We use faith in almost every thing we do in our daily lives. We do not think about all the things we trust in and rely apoun because we grow in our trust of things as they show themselves trustworthy. It becomes a habit to trust so that we do not think about our individual choices to trust in these things.
If we were to be confronted with the process thinking of trust we would ask questions and find out if the object or (person) was a trustworthy object(person) to depend on. In this mental process we would be exercising human faith. In a sense every idea that comes to our mind must be either accepted as true or false or not understandable. We would trust in the truth of it or we would trust that because it is false then we would act appropriately.
A person who exercises human faith puts his trust only in one person ultimately. That is himself. If his motives are centered in self, that is he is sinfully self -conscious then his trust is ultimately in himself only. If he trust in an idol it is only as it relates to his pride and the work he can accomplish in pleasing his god. He forms a god he can trust in and then creates a works system he can feel proud that he has fulfilled its requirements.
Human faith is also used to trust in imaginations. Mens thoughts are so entangled with trusting in false ideas that what they percieve as the truth is just imagined. Men are inate in being sinfully self conscious in the center of their trust.
 Saving faith is a gift and can not be exercised in a spiritually dead person, (that is a person corrupted  in all of his faculties) because a person does not have the knowlege of the object to place his trust in.He is  made spiritually alive and given that knowlege by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. In regeneration the spiritual eyes of the soul with all of its faculties are made alive and for the first time a person can understand spiritual things. When the object who is Christ becomes real by a revelation of Him through the word then a person can exercise saving faith. He can place his whole trust in Christ. Faith is not doled out in measurements because it is an agency. It can grow with use. A person can have the faith of a musterd seed and it be saving because the essence of saving faith is in the object and not the one exercising it. Thats why it says that he can move mountains with the faith of a mustard seed.
A person who exercises saving faith has a focus on one object who is Christ. In Christ is all of his trust. He trust Christ for everything.

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9719  Forums / Theology Forum / The Theology Of War on: January 15, 2006, 08:53:18 AM The american society has come to embracing a social utopia. People have either embraced the system or are trying to bringing the social utopia into the church. Listen, the working of the church has no corilation to the working of social engenering. There are no accusers in the church, only advocates. Christ took all our accusations. There is no buracracy to go through to get the riches in the church. Christ pours it out liberally. There is no cost for the churchs utopian life its all free free free, Christ paid it all! There are no icons in the true church! The first will be last and the last first! Reply Quote Notify

9720	Forums / Theology Forum / The Theology Of War	on: January 15, 2006, 08:17:28 AM
So, if we are to be like Christ, how much like Christ? When do my personal faults start looking for a scripture that somehow supports it. There is a difference between what we call legal conviction and conviction of sin in a believer. An unbeliever is convicted legally that is he has no object of love and forgiveness. Instead of his relationship being cheifly to Christ, it is only to the law. There is no life or longing for the transcendent love of God in legal conviction. In order for us to break the chains of legal conviction to embrace the transcendent forgiveness of God we must be given grace. Grace must be poured out into that dreadful state of which the apostle calls death. \"The letter kills.\" Once we experience Gods grace we understand what forgiveness is all about. Graces infusion into our corruption is the life blood of spiritual wellness and pleasure. People cry \"your guilty!\"Grace cries who can charge guilty you if Christ doesnt. In fact the evidence of legal conviction is anyone who desires wrong on a christian. The attitude of belivers is to cover over sin in other people. The Psalmist never never never never views the relationships in the church community as dealing with each other in legal conviction, never never never! 9721  Forums / Theology Forum / The Theology Of War on: January 15, 2006, 07:54:55 AM If I take the whole Bible, there are a lot of things that are Biblical, but how many of them and in what way are they His Way now. Christ never defended himself. He gave Peter heck for cutting off the guys ear and even went so far as healing him. I think you are confusing the self denial with self destruction. Because we are created in the image of God, that is we are made for the transcendent, that created spirit and body is intrinsically good. The badness is the corruption our body and spirit. Denying ourselves is realizing that in this state of corruption or being dead to spiritual good there is no good thing in us. We embrace Christ who makes us good spiritually and morally. We give him our sin and He gives us repentance. Because we are made in His image we are made for His pleasure. We do not desire to be destroyed but we share in that pleasure as created by Him. There is great value in everything He created. Defending myself and my family shows that I value His making of me. We are evil only in that the created us which is intrinsically good is corrupted in every part. Here is the principle. We see our sin and immediatly confess it. Christ took care of sin on the cross and so we live with greater understanding of our value in Him. We live as kings and preist. We may mourn over sin but we do not stay in that mourning, we live in that value mentality. 9724  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: January 14, 2006, 10:12:01 AM We seem to be creatures that are easily given to multiple thoughts in any given moment. We have millions of these thoughts go in and out of our minds in one day. Think about how this paradigm can work to establish a predisposition to habits bad or good. It is true that we cannot control the sinful thoughts by our will. The bible never represents choice as choosing between two equal powers the good and the bad. Rather the choosing is actually preferring one thing over another. There are many reasons one object looks more pleasing than another to us. But we choose based apoun the condition of our souls. There is a necessity to choose. Calvinism focuses on the condition of the soul and places great emphasis on establishing an anthropology that focuses on the corruption of the faculties in the soul. Semi plagians focus on the objects of choice because when you have a anthropology that represents the will as containing pragmatic choosing, that is if the will is in an equal liberium with the objects of choice as equal in power then the will is powerless being represented as having power in this equal liberium but really the focus is on the object rather than on the condition of the soul because the will is disattached from the condition of the soul being in an equal liberium state. When the focus is on the object of choice then the moral equasion gives the object the power in the choosing. If the object is central in the power of choice then the badness is in the object rather than the condition of the soul. When the condition of the soul is not the focus there is a pragmatic life form in the understanding that works its way out into self righteousness. When the object becomes the focus then the will being powerless presupposes self righteousness in the choice. Faithfulness is measure by an activity of self will to avoid the objects power that produces the choice. This pragmatic process is what we call a pholosophy of choice rather than an evangelical choosing.The souls original condition is one of spiritual darkness. Because Adam sinned , he being represented as the federal head of the human race makes all those born after him in the human race sinners by imputation. Because we are spiritually dead as the natural condition of our souls our will is corrupted and is unable to choose spiritually because it is a faculty of a spiritually dead soul. The very germ of choice is desire. The very germ of a spiritually good choice is regenerated desire. In that germ there is a supernatural transformation. With the focus on the spiritually dead condition of the soul it predisposes an impossiblity of self generated transformation. In that inability of choosing we are naturally possessed with a focused ability outside our inability. This is the germ of supernaturalism! We are supernatualist to the core because our souls must be given new life, eternal life, life beyond our ability to grasp. That is regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Supernaturalisms paradigm is an imenant miracle in soveriegn acting. The power is outside our soul and is performed with all the activity from the outside to the inside of the soul on passive faculties. This process on the soul is not a one time supernaturalistic action. Our souls are being renew with supernatural power daily. That is the Holy Spirits work. 9726  Forums / Break Room / So, How Do Yew Meditate? on: January 11, 2006, 10:14:31 PM I guess if there is one situation i find myself stumbling over it would be this concept of doubt. I think this cross road brings us back to our senses that its not about us in the end. Here we are crying out to God and yet what we are faced with is a mountian of responsibility. Yet the truth is we never amount to anything unless we are brought to understand that our salvation was started by Him and will be brought to its culmination in Him. Here is our parodox. We seek Him until it hurts and then we refuse to be comforted because we enjoy the doubt more than Him. The one state that i am most comfortable is trusting in my industry and senses of site, touch, and feel. But yet this trust leads to groaning all the day long. This trust leads to doubt. Trusting in myself is the most miserable place to be.Its as if i were a spoiled child refusing to be comforted because in order to be comforted i must see that i need to see the need of salvation, I am in need to seeing Him ,not me. And when this cross road comes we grow faint, musing at our inability and His greatness and power. We faint under the magnificancy of it all. What would our existence be if we could get a glimpse in continuance of just how big and mighty our God is? Wouldnt we muse into our decline in doubt and see Him keeping us from doubting utterly? Doesnt He keep us even when we doubt His goodness? If we could just see how our attitude in His presence was throth with corruption we would muse and groan. Look at Him, there He was in our songs, there in our meditation, there in the night, consoleing us, granting us joys beyond our senses. Yet He even alows us to question ourselves in our understanding of His gracious love to us. In time we are left to look back on once was. We are given memories so that we can muse at the state of our hearts in the present and draw on the loving infusions of the past and in this musing we are brought to see that there is a timlessness in thoughts and in seeing that reality we see that God knows in a timeless reality. This is the musing that keeps me from utterly abandoning into unreality where there is no God. God always was and always will be. In understanding the greatness and power of God i am brought to my senses in this crossroad and begin to come back to my trust and confidence in Him and not in myself. Reply Quote Notify 9727  Forums / Prayer Requests / Doubt on: January 11, 2006, 09:42:33 PM I guess if there is one situation i find myself stumbling over it would be this concept of doubt. I think this cross road brings us back to our senses that its not about us in the end. Here we are crying out to God and yet what we are faced with is a mountian of responsibility. Yet the truth is we never amount to anything unless we are brought to understand that our salvation was started by Him and will be brought to its culmination in Him. Here is our parodox. We seek Him until it hurts and then we refuse to be comforted because we enjoy the doubt more than Him. The one state that i am most comfortable is   trusting in my industry and senses of site, touch, and feel. But yet this trust leads to groaning all the day long. This trust leads to doubt. Trusting in myself is the most miserable place to be.Its as if i were a spoiled child refusing to be comforted because in order to be comforted i must see that i need to see the need of salvation, I am in need to seeing Him ,not me. And when this cross road comes we grow faint, musing at our inability and His greatness and power. We faint under the magnificancy of it all. What would our existence be if we could get a glimpse in continuance of just how big and mighty our God is? Wouldnt we muse into our decline in doubt and see Him keeping us from doubting utterly? Doesnt He keep us even when we doubt His goodness? If we could just see how our attitude in His presence was throth with corruption we would muse and groan. Look at Him, there He was in our songs, there in our meditation, there in the night, consoleing us, granting us joys beyond our senses. Yet He even alows us to question ourselves in our understanding of His gracious love to us. In time we are left to look back on once was. We are given memories so that we can muse at the state of our hearts in the present and draw on the loving infusions of the past and in this musing we are brought to see that there is a timlessness in thoughts and in seeing that reality we see that God knows in a timeless reality. This is the musing that keeps me from utterly abandoning into unreality where there is no God. God always was and always will be. In understanding the greatness and power of God i am brought to my senses in this crossroad and begin to come back to my trust and confidence in Him and not in myself. 9737  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: January 05, 2006, 06:39:18 AM Acts 1:4. Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, \"Which,\" He said, \"you heard of from Me; 5. for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.\" 6. So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, \"Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?\" 7. He said to them, \"It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8. but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.\" 1:13. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. 2:1. When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 4. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. 33. \"Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 37. Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, \"Brethren, what shall we do?\" Jn20:17. Jesus *said to her, \"Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.' \" 27. Then He *said to Thomas, \"Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.\" 38. Peter said to them, \"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39. \"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.\" Jn 17:9. \"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 46. Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47. praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. 4:8. Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, \"Rulers and elders of the people, Acts4:23. When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24. And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, \"O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, 25. who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said, `WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE, AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS ? 26. `THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27. \"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28. to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29. \"And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30. while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.\" 31. And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness. 32. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. 33. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. Jn 1:16. For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace . 34. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35. and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need. 36. Now Joseph, a Levite of Cyprian birth, who was also called Barnabas by the apostles (which translated means Son of Encouragement), 37. and who owned a tract of land, sold it and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet 5:29. But Peter and the apostles answered, \"We must obey God rather than men. 30. \"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. 31. \"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32. \"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.\" 6:13-1513. They put forward false witnesses who said, \"This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law; 14. for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us.\" 15. And fixing their gaze on him, all who were sitting in the Council saw his face like the face of an angel. 8:5. Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. 6. The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing. 7. For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed. 8. So there was much rejoicing in that city. 9. Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great; 10. and they all, from smallest to greatest, were giving attention to him, saying, \"This man is what is called the Great Power of God.\" 11. And they were giving him attention because he had for a long time astonished them with his magic arts. 12. But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. 14. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15. who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Johns baptism was a baptizing them into the name of Jesus, a looking forward to the finished work, Jesus baptism was different in the sending of the Spirit in the waiting for the day of Pentecost as that promise of power. 9751  Forums / Main Forum / Culture War/ Sacred Vs, Secular/ Etc... on: January 02, 2006, 10:28:10 AM This here is the \"church within a church mentality\". Here you have organized denominations and with that set of doctrines you have people who struggle with temptation and law and grace. You have a structure that in itself is defined in the new testament but yet not at all close to the ultimate standard. In a sense all of us are in the church at different levels of maturity yet the bible places unity over discipleship because we are together in the call of God as in Christ as that local body of believers. There really is no super disciple spiritual christians verses the so called carnal.Our responsiblility toward one another in the more mature is not just to be an example but to reach out to the weak and be involved in the ordinary problems in their lives as a mother over her children as paul says. Reply Quote Notify 9752  Forums / Theology Forum / Calvinism And 666 on: January 02, 2006, 10:12:08 AM I must disagree... The statements that the beast would speak, and cause as many as did not worship the image to be killed is separate from the statment that nobody would be able to buy or sell without the mark. I dont think its gramatically correct to seperate the two causes in 16 and 17. Rather the question how could he enforce his universal worship. By a mark! The point of the verse is one of identity and behavior. Here you have anti christ and Christ. Here you have the cause coming from the anti christ as opposed to Christ. Where in the scripture is identity to a king not involed with behavior? Look a Daniel! 9755  Forums / Theology Forum / Why Do Bad Thing Happen on: December 31, 2005, 10:13:14 AM Brothers, when we are drawn out of ourselves we are drawn out of the feeling of the pain into a state of rejoicing. We are really over come by His Spirit and we have a taste of that Heavenly painless existence. We begin rejoicing in Him in pain with the reality that in Him is a stones throw from Heaven and all of the narvana of existence. If in Him is reality then experienceing that in Him is very near to us as we go in an out of what we possess from adam and what we possess in Christ. Yet He is drawing us out of trusting in ourselves to total dependence on Him for our pain. The more we are drawn out of ourselves in a natural renewed reality the more we are being changed and the more that contrast will appear. We must see that adams reality is a deep abyss and contrasted with heaven is so far above us that we are in a supernatural time warp of feeling His presence and love in drawing us to Heaven by knowing that one day we are going to leave this body to go to heaven and then we will experience no pain. Reply Quote Notify 9756  Forums / Theology Forum / Why Do Bad Thing Happen on: December 31, 2005, 09:54:36 AM The reason we do not understand the reality of pain and the level of its existence,with the nearness of its effecting us is because we are sheilded from its reality by the blurring of the sharp contrast between sin its effects and justification and its results in dealing in this reality of pain. Pain touches every area of our existence. Pain is a result of our depraved existence. The thoughts in us that cause pain are inescapable. Thats why sin is a power and pain is its out working in us.  When we face the fact that we are sinners we acknowlege that we are in a realm where pain has a sway over us.All of us are susceptable to great experiences of pain at the change of the second hand of the clock. So we are susceptable for pain to change the way we think. Our problem is that we do not know how to have peace in the midst of pain. In a sense we live in a moment by moment basis on the edge of total abandonment  of reality and rational thinking that pain causes. We ignore these extreme changes in our dispostion that pain causes by using our minds to deal in an irrational way with the state of power that pain has on us. If we acknowlege that we are effected by the pain then we are thrown into a world of insecurity. Thats why there is so much work toward explaining to people the nature of the problem and the causes of the problem and its solutions. The very problem in man is this is the natural way to deal with uncertianty. Man creates a system to define a reality that is only helps to aleviate the pain so that he can have a state where the pain is not great enough to effect his thinking process , in other words the ultimate goal in creating a system is to gain an ability to think without being overpowered by the pain that interupts his normal mental processes. Peace becomes the narvana while still ignoring the reality of his state in sin. We live in pain in God. We move and have our being in God. Our state of sin is known by Him. We live thinking and believing in God and knowing and feeling our pain. Yet we ignore our pain even though its His decree that we feel our pain when we feel our pain and the level we feel our pain and the amount of time we feel our pain. He is intmately involved in the physical sensations of our bodys that are under the strain of our pain. His eyes see every organ and every molocule. Why would we ignore this reality, that keeps us from dealing any other irrational way with our pain? Because we are so unable to communicate and understand how our souls process the pain and we cannot see the nature of the pain that God sees in us. If we know this we must acknowlege the inability in ourselves to create a process to over come pain like a central nervous system sending messages out to alleviate the pain. We must see that the aleviation of pain in us is found in God in us. He is the all seeing God and He is the all knowing God. That communication to our pain in us is Him in us creating anew in us to be like His Son. We must know what existing in this new reality is like and its power in us is like. We must have Him speak his word in us and have His Spirit renew us as we are painfully aware of our state and that deep contrast between our natural state apart from Him and our renewed state identified in Him. 9763  Forums / Theology Forum / Calvinism And 666 on: December 29, 2005, 06:51:22 PM Since there has been an effort to attribute to Calvinism a narrow view of the universal call i would like to ask those who believe in the universal redemption how they can believe that there will be millions of people in the future on the earth who will be unable to recieve the gospel because of some outward act? Will you be able to witness to a person who has the mark? If millions of people are beyond the scope of being saved then it is not a universal redemption is it?  9765  Forums / Main Forum / Culture War/ Sacred Vs, Secular/ Etc... on: December 29, 2005, 11:03:25 AM The things that a central in this issue are the profound things. The profound things are the things of power. The things of power are eternal in nature that is why these things are so profound. But profound things are not just propositions but existed in realities. Men who utter profoundunties live in the existence of those eternal realities. These eternal realities in men are enlived by the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit. This is what leads to a centralized focus of gospel desire. They go beyond propositions. Yet they are built on proposition which address not only the profound things but the structure of the propogation of these things. Living in Christ and being filled with the Spirit and His word will expose what is temporal by these eternal profound realities.

9659	Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church	on: February 09, 2006, 09:41:43 PM
Where is real rest? Is it not in God? We pant for more of God as a deer pants for water? Can we ever become exausted or bored with panting for God? Doesnt the panting create the thirst so that the future pantings will grow in number and in depth? We can always count on God to create the desire in us to pant and then desire in us that creation to recreation ,for in God is a fluid stream of decreed desire of reciprocol loves. Infused love to a dried up heart is a grace that causes rest, peacing in God. Lonliness is not contagious in God. For God alone is my companion of existence. To exist is to be in God, where self is caught up in God alone. If peace is to be lived in, then the lostness of my panting must find its loneliness in His mercy, for mercys thirst is lonlinesses end.   9672  Forums / Main Forum / Jesus on: February 08, 2006, 05:10:32 PM Jesus is all in all. He is the begining of my loves and the end of my loves. He is my righteousness, He is my power, HE is my forgiveness, He is my king, He is my refuge, He is my life giver, He is my sheild, He is my healer, He is my salvation,He is my friend, He is my advocate, He is my joy, He stoops lower than my deepest lows, He forgives my worse sin, He goes farther than i could in any endeavor i undertake,He tells me He loves me, He tells me of my Fathers love, He has sent His Spirit into my heart, He meets my needs, He feeds me even when i dont thank Him, He provides clothes for me and my loved ones, He is my greatest desire, He is my light, He is my cry for help, He helps me morn over my sin, He is my grace, He gives me more love than i can handle, He moves my heart to love others, He is there right next to me when i am lonely holding me and giving me hugs, He joy, He is my sweet sleep, He is my protector, He is my physician, He is my Lord, He releives my anxiety, He is the song of my heart, He is my illuminator, He knows all of my secret sins, He knows just how to get me out of trouble when i put my self into trouble, He goes before me and prepares other people to love me, He guides me out of temptation, He holds onto me when i give into temptation so that i do not fall greater than i could have, He hears me when i speak to Him, He answers me with a word of encouragement, He tells other people when i am in trouble and tells them to encourage me, He watches over my kids when i am not there, He helps my wife and i love each other, He encourages me in every turn, He helps me think thoughts that are good, He strengthens my heart so that i can have confidence, He protects me from the devil, He loves me because He chooses to love me and not any thing in myself, He has led me for His purpose in every second of my life, He is my greatest thought, He controls my tounge, He makes countenance shine, He has protected me in car accidents, He has protected me in sports, He gives my body strength to perform work, He trained me to do my job, He knows my thoughts before i think them,He wakes me up in the morning, He fellowships with my heart in the day, He makes my prayers acceptable to the Father, He pleads to the Father for me, He brings storms into my life so He can help me forget myself and then i will trust Him more, i will lean on Him and hold on tight to Him, He is the sweetest name i know, He makes me know myself, He is the alpha and the omega, He is the eternal God.[/size] Reply Quote Notify 9673  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: February 08, 2006, 03:11:11 AM We are so dependent to the thoughts of God that any determination of rational thinking that is corrupted is painful. It is painful because there is so much conflict in us that unless we expose our innermost being to the word we are in a constant state of numbness.That process of redefining the forces of the conflict by that exposure is beyond rational processes alone. We must be infused with greater desires than the opposite desires in that conflict. Yet the supreme action in the conflict is from the mind. The mind must be convinced by understanding the nature of these forces that come out of the divine. That source action from the divine source brings about a revelation of the conflict so that in that identity we understand what kind of reception is required in the mind grasping an understanding of the true nature of the divine. The mind must be in constant activity on the divine things for it to be a healthy mind. The mind is a vessel that when used gains greater aridation for the soul as it is brought to exaustion. It is truely a place fit for battle. Trying to exhuast the mind is like trying to climb mount everest. The mind is always working, always forming new areas of thought, always devising, almost never resting even in sleep. A mind exhuasted in divine things will super abound in strength. The mind full of the divine dictates aroriates the soul with life as if God breathes life into a person. It collects ideas, records, passionate connections to truth,memories of what disposition the soul lives in. In reading past dispositions it forms a greater understanding of the divine and lust for more of these transforming infusions. 9679  Forums / Main Forum / Perfectionism on: February 07, 2006, 01:50:43 PM The more a true saint loves God with a gracious love, the more he desires to love him, and the more uneasy is he at his want of love to him; the more he hates sin, the more he desires to hate it, and laments that he has so much remaining love to it; the more he mourns for sin, the more he longs to mourn for sin; the more his heart is broke, the more he desires it should be broke the more he thirsts and longs after God and holiness, the more he longs to long, and breathe out his very soul in longings after God: the kindling and raising of gracious affections is like kindling a flame; the higher it is raised, the more ardent it is; and the more it burns, the more vehemently does it tend and seek to burn. Here is the new desires we are given at our salvation. Before we were saved we only had desires please ourselves. We made choices that were according to how it made us look to other people and made us feel good about ourselves. Perfectionism is when we think like a pagan. We think that our choices are purely rational. We think that we can reason through the command to obey and obey by choosing to obey in our own power. When we have this view of choosing we set up our own standards so that we can rationally prove that we obey. Edwards is saying that when we were pagans we sinned because we were sinners. In other words we desired to sin more than we desired to obey. We choose one thing over another based apoun how it pleased us. We loved sin and the pleasure and so that love of sin grew as we sinned. In the mean time we reasoned that we did more good than sin to protected our pleasure in that sin.So sin became a way of life. When we were given new desires at salvation it reversed our desires. Now we love God because we are regenerated and we have the Holy Spirit. We are made new. We desire God. Now our desires for Gods glory grow as we desire more of Him. The longer we live the more we learn His will the more we desire to love Him the greater the desires become. On the reverse we hate sin. We feel bad about displeasing Him. We react against sin by mourning over sin. This desire grows as our desires to love God grow. A prefectionist does not consider that God changes the inside before the outside is changed. He thinks that he can will a change without the proper desires to change. He leaves out grace by self will. Grace is the power to change the heart and thus changes the desires. All inward change comes from grace. God is the only one who can change the heart. He does it by grace.[/color] So that the spiritual appetite after holiness, and an increase of holy affections is much more lively and keen in those that are eminent in holiness, than others, and more when grace and holy affections are in their most lively exercise, than at other times. It is as much the nature of one that is spiritually new born, to thirst after growth in holiness, as it is the nature of a new born babe to thirst after the mother's breast; who has the sharpest appetite, when best in health. 1 Pet. 2:2, 3, \"As new born babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.\" The most that the saints have in this world, is but a taste, a prelibation of that future glory which is their proper fullness; it is only an earnest of their future inheritance in their hearts, 2 Cor. 1:22, and 5:5, and Eph. 1:14. [span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']As our desires grow in us through the means of grace we begin to be passionate about Christ. As the passion increases so the holiness increases. It is through grace an by love in relationship that we are made holy. Not by some outward performance of self will. The most eminent saints in this state are but children, compared with their future, which is their proper state of maturity and perfection; as the apostle observes, 1 Cor. 13:10, 11. The greatest eminency that the saints arrive to in this world, has no tendency to satiety, or to abate their desires after more; but, on the contrary, makes them more eager to press forwards; as is evident by the apostle's words, Phil. 3:13, 14, 15: \"Forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press towards the mark.--Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded.\" The reasons of it are, that the more persons have of holy affections, the more they have of that spiritual taste which I have spoken of elsewhere; whereby they perceive the excellency, and relish the divine sweetness of holiness. 9686  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: February 04, 2006, 05:21:46 AM The word aπαuγασμα means here nothing else but visible light or refulgence, such as our eyes can bear; and χαρακτnρ is the vivid form of a hidden substance. By the first word we are reminded that without Christ there is no light, but only darkness; for as God is the only true light by which it behaves us all to be illuminated, this light sheds itself upon us, so to speak, only by irradiation. By the second word we are reminded that God is truly and really known in Christ; for he is not his obscure or shadowy image, but his impress which resembles him, as money the impress of the die with which it is stamped. But the Apostle indeed says what is more than this, even that the substance of the Father is in a manner engraven on the Son.3 The word uποστaσεως which, by following others, I have rendered substance, denotes not, as I think, the being or essence of the Father, but his person; for it would be strange to say that the essence of God is impressed on Christ, as the essence of both is simply the same. But it may truly and fitly be said that whatever peculiarly belongs to the Father is exhibited in Christ, so that he who knows him knows what is in the Father. And in this sense do the orthodox fathers take this term, hypostasis, considering it to be threefold in God, while the essence (oujsi]a) is simply one. Hilary everywhere takes the Latin word substance for person. But though it be not the Apostle's object in this place to speak of what Christ is in himself, but of what he is really to us, yet he sufficiently confutes the Asians and Sabellians; for he claims for Christ what belongs to God alone, and also refers to two distinct persons, as to the Father and the Son. For we hence learn that the Son is one God with the Father, and that he is yet in a sense distinct from him, so that a subsistence or person belongs to both.Calvins commentary on Heb.1;3 hypostasis-1 a : something that settles at the bottom of a fluid b : the settling of blood in the dependent parts of an organ or body 2 : PERSON 3 3 a : the substance or essential nature of an individual b : something that is hypostatized BDAG :uποστaσεως - the essential; or basic structure /nature of an entity substantial nature, essence, actual being, reality. of the Son of God ,exact representation of Gods real being aπαuγασμα act. radiance,effulgence, in the sense of brightness from a source; pass. reflection i.e. brightness shining back. Philo used the word of the relation of the Logos to God. χαρακτnρ-something produced as a representation, reproduction, representation fig. of God -(God) formed a human being as reproduction of his own identity/reality. Its not just the moral choices -that is it is not just the ten commandments to be obeyed but it is the understanding who God is by those commandments and the cherishing the nature of God that creates holiness. Getting a spiritual tastes. And the more grace they have, while in this state of imperfection, the more they see their imperfection and emptiness, and distance from what ought to be: and so the more do they see their need of grace; as I showed at large before, when speaking of the nature of evangelical humiliation. And besides, grace, as long as it is imperfect, is of a growing nature, and in a growing state. And we see it to be so with all living things, that while they are in a state of imperfection, and in their growing state, their nature seeks after growth; and so much the more, as they are more healthy and prosperous. Therefore the cry of every true grace, is like that cry of true faith, Mark 9:24: \"Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief.\" And the greater spiritual discoveries and affections the true Christian has, the more does he become an earnest beggar for grace, and spiritual food, that he may grow; and the more earnestly does he pursue after it, in the use of proper means and endeavors; for true and gracious longings after holiness are no idle ineffectual desires.  J Edwards. Here we have a difference in how we as christians approach sin an grace. We do not love to sin because we are given grace. We hate sin but yet we need grace. It is really the attitude we have about sin and grace and not in the fundamental relationship grace has to sin. [/span] Reply Quote Notify 9680  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: February 06, 2006, 11:06:05 PM Snares are also ultimate snares. If we can see the power of evil in these temporary snares by being ensnared we can see that there is a possiblity that we could be exposed to the ultimate snare of eternal death and judgement and punishment. The reality is that we are unsure of our level of exposure in ourselves. Our inner thought life on this earth is filled with threatenings and fears in thinking about our final breath and seeing that day approaching. We naturally have a distaste to pondering these things. Yet there is a eternal reality that we live in as we approach that day of judgement. When we only think in terms of Gods love without considering His anger we come to a warped view of these eternal things. God  loves and hates at the same time. If we thought that we could appease His hatred in ourselves we would be most miserable. So we are caught in a tension that fuels our heavenly desires and longings. On one level we have experienced desires and longings after heaven an Christ. On the other level we are pearced with these thoughts that God is a great judge and He enacts His judgement on the wicked. Yet we struggle with sin, sometimes we have periods where we give into sin more than other times. Now if we thought that we could keep God from enacting judgement on us when we sin then there would be no need for Christ work on our behalf. We naturally have a tendency to be thinking in this way as it is part of our fallen natures. We try to bargin with sin and with God. We become double minded and that in turn dampens our desires for eternal realities. Yet by acknowleging our sin and turning to Christ and for grace we begin to delight in the nature of these eternal realities and promises. We must experience a security outside of ourselves from these judgements by seeing that God has a rite to judge us but He instead judged His Son for our sin. This is the mental process we glory in. This is what helps us understand that we will not be taken with the wicked in judgement. The truth is that just like birds who are subject to pestelences, snares, and arrows. These evils decemate entire bird populations. They are a picture of men who are die every second. There is the eternal reality. Men are susceptable to the eternal snare. Yet if we think about the reason we are going to be protected from this eternal snare we would understand the greatness of that protection and the value of the One who took our sin on Himself. We can have an assurance in this eternal reality that indwells us and has a great effect on our desires for our future heavenly experience.  We can picture ourselves watching men being accompanied to everlasting destruction and thanking Christ for His grace to protect us from being judged along with them. We can have an assurance that we will be there one day in heaven in total safety and that will effect our desires as that eternal life has started the moment we believe. Do we think about these things. Do we have that vision of watching in eternity. Do we ponder that grace as just like the cross of Christ we will be facing a cross roads in eternity and we will be protect by a work done by someone else on our behalf? Reply Quote Notify 9681  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: February 05, 2006, 02:57:49 AM Brothers , Unless we are confronted by trials we are only going to grow cold and lifeless in our experience. We must be proded, pushed and shoved into His grace! We cannot have the flames of grace engulfing us if we there is no fire. Jesus is the only one who knows us inside and out, He is the only one who can truely make us feel good inside about our selves and our circumstances. There is no place, sin or depression He will not uphold us as we struggle . He is full of love, full of peace, full of joy in the Holy Ghost! The opposite of inward pressure is peace, the opposite of depression is joy. The Holy Ghost hovers over our place of trials and grants us winds of comfort and eternal experiences as these temporary things push us into our Fathers arms. We are in a world of uncertianty, engulfed in a depraved society. The only comfort we have is in the one who sets these things rite. He can set these things rite in us as we are ingulfed in these circumstances. Go to Him and ask for the Power, we want the dynamite power, the power of eternal care, the power of the Holy Ghost! Reply Quote Notify 9682  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: February 05, 2006, 02:23:59 AM Snares are a temporary problem for us as believers. We have a most gracious God who we turn to in when we get caught in them. His name is always faithful, full of love, gracious, forgiving, kind. He is our place of refuge. When we know that we have gone from the wading waters into the deep waters where we feel helpless there is a tendency to look at our circumstances and our sin and conclude that God is not in these waters. If we enter waters that are too deep for us we are confronted by those who want to push our heads under, and our guilt and shame that drives us even deeper, as if we were walking down into the bottom of a lake. We conclude that this snare is too much for any ones care of us. We feel the weight of our sin and we feel the weight of our accusers. We know that struggling with a sin is taking the life rite out of us and we have a hard time gaining peace and understanding grace in these waters. We must preach to ourselves as if we were ready to be over taken by the waters. We must understand that our experiencing guilt and shame before our accusers is not like experiencing a refuge from the only one in whom we have to rely on. We must see that He knows that the floods of guilt and shame and ungracious people are about to engulf us and we must experience grace in these deep waters. He brings us to the deep waters to increase our trust in Him. We can take refuge in Him with our head just sticking above the waves. We can tread the waves in the loving arms of our Father. A christian is not one who stays in the shallow waters and enjoys the sun and the coolness of the waters. A christian is one who struggles as he grows and ends up going out into the deep waters. There in those waters is a refuge, there is a great experience of faith. The deep waters have great pressure pushing on our bodies. They threaten to engulf us and swollow us up.  We can tread only for a short while and then we will go under. Yet we never go under with our taking refuge in Him. We experience all the sensations of going under. Yet we cast ourselves on His mercy and we experience a very powerful rescuer. What safety we have in Him in the deepest of lifes trials. He is there in the deep waters! 9689  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: February 02, 2006, 01:54:33 PM God is a refuge in times of trouble. Being in trouble is not foriegn to a christian. The problem with us is that we as christians do not take refuge in Christ. A refuge is a place of safety. Having a refuge in the spiritual life of a believer is volatel. First resting in Christ is an exercise of faith. Resting in the spriritual realm is not an absence of trouble or opposite force. Its having peace based apoun faith in an object that overcomes all adversity. It is a battle in the mind will and emotions. If you dwell in a shadow, you experience many sensations. You experience a cool breeze, and you are over shadowed by a taller object. Then you would be engulfed in that shadow. I can get an understanding of the shadows by being in the mountians, being shadowed by a storm, having the clouds block the sunlight on a warm day, the planets block the moons light and so you are in a very black  universe. Any thing that is higher than my vision abilities brings about these sensations of safety if i dwell on these great high things. The highest being in the universe is God. If you can visualize immediate places and things that are high then you can try to imagine from that perspective of things that are beyond this universe. If you think about it God overshadows from the highest point. Nothing gets beyond Him. Now just thinking in these terms creates in me an ultimate refuge. If nothing is higher than God and then looking at these objects for a sensation of safety then i have the ultimate refuge in God. Think now about what the highest being could do by His power as He sits on His throne with His footstool as the earth. Think about the ability He has to over see the universe. He could as it were throw down hail, shoot lightning out from His throne, blast snowstorms all of the earth, even shoot arrows at His enemys, send storms over the earth and hurricanes ,even a blowing of a brezze into the ears. All done as He sits on the highest throne. He could reach down His hand and pull you out of trouble. He could come down as a mighty warrior and enact punishment on the wicked in war. See at that height there is nothing outside of His vision. He could come down as a mighty warrior and save you from any thing that threatens you as a believer. Now this is the picture of Gods refuge for us. Thinking like this is only half the concept. How can we rest just thinking of the Height of Gods rule? Its got to at some point become personal to us. If we just conceived of God as the heighest being who does these things then it would only give us reasons to trust in a God who does these thing.  He must be owned as my God. My Saviour. It must be a confession on my lips. When i speak of Him it is not the Great God in the sky, it is my refuge! my Most High! All of these great powers that God displays on a daily basis are seen by the whole world. Yet they really do become to my personal benifit as a christian. What would i consider a threat to my well being? It comes in the word \"snare\". These are traps set by an enemy. Think about what causes snares to come into our lives. You have your own sin, other peoples plots, accusations from freinds, and then traitors. Now we start from the towering objects in our world , we go to thinking in terms of Gods throne as the most high and that vision works its power in our every day problems. This is part of the concept of refuge. Refuge is a place of trust in the midst of all of these snares. It is a place of trust where our finite vision is tried. We see trouble encircleing us. We see enemies within and without. There is an adversarial experience in taking refuge in God. Peace comes when we rise above our finite vision by faith as we look into the face of trouble. Faith must be like a shadow, where we actually experience peace in resting in Christ. If i said that there is a refuge i go to and do not experience that peace then i would not value that place of refuge. If i dont value it i would not spend time experienceing it. In faith we act to plead the promises, we look at the circumstances and cast ourselves on Christ in prayer. In faith we seek to walk a grace pathway as we rest in Christ not trusting in our own power or abilities but in His ability to deliever us as we see Him in faith. 9696  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: January 29, 2006, 06:13:09 AM I am not dissagreeing with you. I am giving you the confession as well. I agree that we must work toward being sanctified. As i stated we are given the means of grace in order to be sanctified. What do you mean that i am trying to cut sanctification out all together? My problem with what you said above is that you left out the details of the doctrine of justification and our corruption and good works. Do you believe that good works are only acceptable because of Christ righteousness? First you are mixing pelaginism with semi pelaginism in your discription of the other side. I was not saying that the semi pelaginist believed that we must work to be saved. That is the Roman error-pelaginism-. Semi plagenist believe that we are saved by grace through faith but they have a kink in their system of doctrine when they say that the will is not corrupted.Which has a profound effect on how they view justification by faith. Now they say that a person must exercise faith in order to be regenerated. We believe that we are dead in sins and are unable to come to God until He regenerates us. They believe in a different grace than we do. They believe that grace can be resisted, we believe that grace is irresistable. Now if i believed that grace can be resisted dont you think that i would approach these practical outworkings in a much different way than a Calvinist? If i thought that i was able to choose salvation of my own free will ,dont you think that i would live my christian life with that view in my works? I would try to hold onto my salvation by working to keep it even tho i acknowlege that salvation was by grace. I believe that words mean things, we create propositions with them that bring about a world view that effect how a person lives. We do not think in a divided way about doctrine and the practical. We are not saying \" Now that we know the doctrine lets get to the practical\" which would be like saying \"now that we are saved lets put our bibles on the shelf and create a system of philosophy for behaviour. \" Which semplified is \"God will do when you do \"We believe doctrine makes the practice correct. \"Sanctify them by thy truth thy word is truth.\" The word is the cheif means to effect the proper practical outworking. A semi pelagenist represents the will as being inbetween two equal forces ,the good and the bad. This makes the will powerless, which puts the force on the object of choice. This is pragmatism. This thinking elevates pholosophy to an equal level of scripture. Scripture must stand alone as the absolute authority. This thinking has a great effect on the practical outworkings of individuals and church societies. We need to be very detailed as to what we believe in order for us to logically think through the doctrine of sanctification because we are either too self righteous or we are always disobedient. Both extremes are sin. 9700  Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church on: January 25, 2006, 10:50:12 PM Grace is a favor granted to the undeserved. First in order for us to understand grace we must understand the nature of the condition that we were brought out of. We were darkened in our minds and unable to apprehend any thing spiritually good. We were dead in sin and trespasses. We were without hope. We were given over to all kinds of lust to fulfill them. We had no control over our impulses so we were in bondage with all of our motives being selfish. The law was a school master to us. We heard the law and we felt condemned which made us afraid of God. We recoiled from any thing spiritual because it reminded us of that being under the weight of guilt, with such a burden that we would imagine evil in others who had no reason to attack us. We hated God with a violent hatred. We joined with others like ourselve to mock God so that we could relieve our consciences so that we could feel better about ourselves by bringing God down. The reason we hated His commands was that they seemed to condemn us and we did not understand why God would be so picky about every little thing. We ran from God until He out of sheer mercy regenerated us to see the truth. Until that time we lived in a dream world. When we first had the heniousness of our sins revealed to us we were struck with how little we understood about ourselves. We were exposed to the renewal of the Holy Spirit and we began to feel a peace for once. Like a big heavy burden had been taken from us. It was so real that we woke up the morning after to see if we had that same feeling of peace. It was so enlightening to our minds and hearts that we knew that we had recieved someone more valuable than any thing we had ever understood before. We experienced a simple trust in Christ when we understood grace. We were so transformed at the point of salvation by being so needy that Gods grace was pleasant to us. Even though we did not have a deep knowlege of grace and its importance we ,being exposed to ourselves made grace valuable. Then we began to struggle with some of the sins that we had turned from. We could not understand why our initual salvation experience wore off. We began to fear that we had only tasted of Gods grace. Yet not having a deep experiencial knowlege of grace we seemed to be at a cross roads between what we percieved grace had saved us from and what grace could be to us as we began to deepen in our christian understanding. Real grace is poured out on us as the ocean waves beating against the shore so that we grow and overcome, grace doesnt die in us. Once we have saving grace we have it forever! Look there is no merit in grace or it wouldnt be grace! When we are saved we are thrown into this struggle between self righteousness and disobedience. We are in a sense little god makers. We percieve things that are not true of God and not true of ourselves. That is we make a god for ourselves. That is what self righteousness and disobedience does. Our relationship to the law is no longer a condemning relationship. We here the law and we turn to Christ and recieve grace freely! We can look into the perfect law and make an honest assessment of ourselves because we have someone who fulfilled the requirements of the law as our Saviour. We love the law knowing that in Christ we are forgiven so that we live in grace. When we obey we recieve more grace, but the obedience was Gods grace for us to obey. Our obedience is corrupted so we need the righteousness of Christ to be our acceptability before the Father. This is grace being worked out in us. When we sin we have an advocate Christ who finished the work of ending sins power over us so we can be forgiven. When we experience the Fathers forgiveness because He accepts His Sons sacrifice we experience the effects of grace in us. We begin to rejoice that such mercy and grace was extended to us and this experience begins to deepen in us as we grow in His word. We are cast apoun Him through meditation of His word and His Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are His child, then we begin to cry Abba Father! We begin to more and more value His mercy and love and our Abba Fathers get repeated often in our walk thoughout the day. If we understand that our inner life reflects to others what the truth is, they will want to know not just how good we are, but what kind of supernatural grace could this be in us. Live so near the Father that you will morn when others are sad and you will rejoice when others are happy. Remember that life in the Spirit is a struggle of your flesh in the inner man and the Spirit. He is jealous for control. Meditate on the word let the Spirit illuminate to you the value of Christ over any thing in this world. There is not a power on this earth that can stand up against His power! When you feel powerless tell yourself that the power is in Him and it resides in you by the Holy Spirit. Come to Him lay at His feet, see Him crucified, victorious, mediating on your behalf. Seek His face ,so that you can be filled with the knowlege of Himself, seeing it illuminated in His face. Grace is an illuminated reality in the face of Christ that gives us the confidence to approach the throne of God with boldness. Plead the promises! pour out your hearts before Him! He will take your burden and give you grace!