What
ive heard about this is this: "Natural law" had to come from somewhere
so God had to give Adam details about his (Adam's) own being. Things
that were good and bad. Its a theory of course, but they talked daily
and he gave Adam rules. Helm doesnt venture to guess about the origin,
he just says in Genesis ppl were being held accountable by God with no
law. I would still say 0+0=0, How could God say "how dare you?" when he
never told anyone? That wouldnt make any sense. Somehow the guilty
parties in Genesis knew, and this understood morality had to come from
someone, somewhere. I think he will get to this in the next column but
by natural law he better not mean its ingrained in the flesh with no
outside influence. Anyways, I thought this was pretty interesting. I found this in the riddleblog http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/good stuff check it out I
completely understand what the article was about. I was just wondering
what the point about it was. I mean if the law was written on their
hearts and their consciences bearing witness that is enough to damn
them. Whether they were instructed or it was ingrained is a matter of
importance since any good choice is from a cause of the nature of that
choice. Its from the heart that comes all kinds of deceit. Its not
necessarily the churches authoritative creeds. Lets try to focus on the
major doctrines and then we will put man in his proper place. The
problems today are that we try to give the creeds equality with the
divine nature. The steps toward apostasy are going away from the major
doctrines to make salvation a work of the means rather than the actual
work of the Spirit.
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6033
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Giftedness
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on: September 24, 2008, 12:28:24 PM
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I
agree with Bill , this really isnt the place to find out that gift.
Theres going to be a lot of opinions. I would just say that if you are a
people person but you dont like being alone to study then i really dont
know if this is a gift as much as a discipline. But pastors should be
concerned about the teaching as a focus. Cause once you get into the
mindset of telling people what their spiritual gifts are then there is a
certain pride factor there. Where we get off course in fellowshiping
and encouraging is that we get off in teaching first. Learn the
confessions and use these to teach over and over again. Make the goal of
your ministry to be regulated by the word of God so that no one person
will be the focus, no one will be accusing as the focus, and when you
bring the confession you bring the healing that is necessary to
encourage and calm the sheep. Let the word of God be the "go before" as
the answer to lifes problems.
Tom, Some good
points. Really dangerous one believer telling another believer what
there gift is. It would seem that would be between that person and God,
and He would reveal it to that person at the proper time. In
regards to ministry, especially teaching. It is wisdom for a fellowship
to allow new believers to have a time where their primary focus is to
learn the Word of God and be built up in their faith. Too many times we
mistake enthusiasm for maturity, and place too many responsibilities on
new believers. This is a receipt for burn-out and frustration. Much
better to make sure that a new believer is grounded in their faith
before placing too much responsiblity on them. Even Paul retreated to
the back of the Arabian desert for 3 years or so before beginning his
public ministry. As Tom stated, we need to return to teaching the
fundamentals of the Christian faith. There is a movement today away
from doctrine to emotion-dirven worship that is not of God, IMO. A
friend of mine who is a PCA pastor rightly said that much of today's
music is not cross-centered, and that can be said of teaching and
preaching as well. Bill
Yes, Bill, if we focus on
the historical fashion of regulating worship then it will be the pre
determiner of the direction of our ministry. Confessional regulation is
reformation theology. I mean, there is a way of reforming in an
epistemological fashion. The false logic in some of the new fashion is
that we expand the passages about unity where the distinction is by race
to be according to a persons doctrine. (sorta like the living
United States constitution) I have seen this kind of teaching even in
the churchs that are supposed to be teaching the confession. Paul had
one focus as to a doctrinal position and then he would say that God will
show a person who lacks the understanding. Paul did not water down the
teaching in order to create the false unity. Thats why the distinctions
are according to race and culture. We need to get back to historical
reformation theology.
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6034
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Giftedness
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on: September 24, 2008, 11:51:30 AM
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Mal if you are still here:
You
are right to seek to understand the spritual gift God has given you.
Early in my Christian life I had the opportunity to participate in a
study of spiritual gifts and God showed me that teaching was the gift I
had. This was important, because I also found that I did not have the
gift of pastor. It would have been a terrible mistake for myself and
others to have gone in that dirrection.
My advise would be to study
the major passages (Romans 12, I Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4, and I
Peter 4) and list the gifts mentioned here. I take the position that
some gifts were "sign" gifts given primarily during the first century to
confirm the preachings of the apostles, and that these gifts are not
widely given in the church today, having fulfilled their primary
purpose. So I would focus on those gifts which are especially needed in
the church today.
My other suggestion would be to make this an object of prayer,
which I bet you are already doing. Also look for opportunities of
service, for as someone has rightly said, it is hard for even God to
steer a parked car. Be open for ministry opportunities, and in my experience it is through these that God will show you where you are gifted (and where you are not!).
Once
you understand your place in Christ's body, I would suggest that you
focus on serving in those areas only. This will require saying no to
lots of things, but trust me this is really necessary. Going back to my
own case, it would be an utter disaster for me to try to pastor others,
for I lack the necessary gift for that ministry. Only those with the
gift of pastor-teacher should function in that role. This is where our
churches get into such a mess, with men/women trying to function in
areas where they are not gifted.
Spiritual gifts would be an
interesting topic to discuss, and I would be willing to start a thread
on this if anyone is interested.
I agree with Joker that we as a
group could have handled this better. I know there are many here who
have been burned by the established "Church" and I can identify with
that. But there are local fellowships that are not focused on just money
or numbers, but are seeking to glorify God and reach hurting people
with the gospel. They may be a minority, but they do exist. I still
would advise young believers such as Mal to find such a fellowship and
take advantage of the opportunities for growth and ministry there.
Bill
I
agree with Bill , this really isnt the place to find out that gift.
Theres going to be a lot of opinions. I would just say that if you are a
people person but you dont like being alone to study then i really dont
know if this is a gift as much as a discipline. But pastors should be
concerned about the teaching as a focus. Cause once you get into the
mindset of telling people what their spiritual gifts are then there is a
certain pride factor there.Once you start reading into what God is
trying to do then you could be talking for God , getting off of the goal
into some side issue. God did things that were outside the means at
different times in the history of the church in the OT. God uses the
weak things in the world to confound the wise. Where we get off course
in fellowship and encouraging is that we get off in teaching first.
Learn the confessions and use these to teach over and over again. Make
the goal of your ministry to be regulated by the word of God so that no
one person will be the focus, no one will be accusing as the focus, and
when you bring the confession you bring the healing that is necessary to
encourage and calm the sheep.Let the word of God be the "go before" as
the answer to lifes problems. Then you will be consistent in your speech
before men so that you will fulfill your oaths.
| 6039
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: September 22, 2008, 06:52:47 AM
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This truely is a place where there is a true
sense of that intuitive spark of divine consciousness. And yet, every
desire we have is of its own nature. Since we are made new by the
Spirit, then there is no desire that we have that is not transferred by
grace. I find in this life that my natural inclination is to become
sullen by the weight of some kind of fallen spiritual paradigms with the
thoughts of this earth and a conscious independence to rest in my own
power. Its so subtle that it just creeps up on my spiritual awareness.
But since there is a deep well of heart issues, those desires that we
have for the eternal, then there is nothing that we can do to smother
them completely. So that we are most miserable creatures under the
burden of our sin and our lack of thankfulness. This comes in just
resting from any struggle. When we desire to have all of the
blessings of the promises of God, then we are made to rejoice. But our
understanding only comes by increasing these desires since what we
desire is what is going to be done in the end. And since we have this
inner world of acting, then we are living in the reality of His life in
us when we are having the springs of His Holy Spirit increasing the life
of Christ as a constant disposition of living in the eternal conscious
communications of His revelation. We know this because we gain an
understanding of the nature of these attributable paradigms that lighten
the weight of this struggle in temptation and cause us to be raised up
in our affections to spend our hours longing for eternal immunations of
His love and faithfulness. If we have a taste of His goodness, then all
is well with our souls. Oh that the Spirit would baptize us in the
confidence and assurance of the reality of the glorious knowledge of our
Lord Jesus Christ. Oh that divine illumination that translates us into a
hope that is sure and steadfast. We must get used to living with a
level of eternal communications in the deep recesses of our souls. To
hear when there is silence, to long for Him when there is only voices
around us that are complaining, and to be enraptured in His eternal
powerful resurrection calling that takes us out of this world so that we
are lost in His wonder and praise. For when we have desires for His
glory then we will experience the pleasure of having fellowship with His
Spirit.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: September 21, 2008, 08:55:24 PM
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Father we thank you that your glory lights up
the earth and if you were to expose us to the fullness then we would
vanish by its brightness. We thank you that when we are buffeted on
every side that we are made to offer you all of the glory because we are
made to wait on You knowing that there is nothing that is of trouble to
us that you will not come and bring about for good. Father you have
spoken from eternity every little number of the hair that falls from our
heads as the clock continues to move. And you know before they fall
from eternity past the very movements of each hair. Thank you that we
have a God who is not surprised by anything. So that we not only are
able to pour out our hearts to You, but you make us to dwell in your
bosom and rest from our anxiety. For your love is from your work apart
from anything we do. Since we are burdened then we can sense that your
love is without resistance to work. And so we call on you to show
yourself strong, because in this time of uncertianty in our Nation, we
know that you have planned the beginning and the end of all nations.
Father this proves that the help of man is worthless. Oh Speak Holy
Spirit, your joy and comfort to our souls. Since you have come and are
making us new by our pain, then we know that you uphold us by revealing
to us His salvation. That eternal salvation, both in our circumstances
and in our eternal home. For even if the world was to crumble beneath
our feet, yet we can stand on your promises.There is a river whose
streams make glad the city of our God. The place where the Most High
dwells. There is no depths to which we cannot find you since you are
eternal then your heights reach in all directions. Grant us a vision of
all of the spiritual forces that are surrounding us. So that this
universe will seem small to our spiritual eyes, that eye that looks into
eternity, beyond time , to hope in your unfailing love. Send us your
Spirit so that we may rejoice, and rebuild our walls so that we will be
safe in this world. Father, your strength is made perfect when we are
weak. Because we feel burdened enough to be afraid for our own well
being. But when we call on you, out of your dwelling, then you hear our
prayers. There is a chariot of God, that is Your entrance into this
world to come and bring us out of trouble. And you are so very attentive
to our cries from this earth of pain and sorrow. So that when you come
from our calling, then we are made to have a physical strength that is
for our good. May you strengthen us by that vision of your powerful and
eternal sword that is wielded in our souls according to that powerful
and most terrifying return on our behalf. For you strengthen our hands
for battle and we can bend a bow of bronze. There is a powerful rush
over our bodies that we have understood the nearness of your Spirit who
comes like the wind. Father we are invincible when you enter from our
battle cry. For you grant us victory as you did your king. If we are to
be made to long for you to speak your salvation, then we are going to be
made to see this vision. And we know that you are present and in
control of all the conversions to our continuous salvation. So that when
you save us, then we are given an understanding of you that is a
pleasure that we could not describe. May this conversion come quickly by
your Spirit. Speak the word and deliver us.
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6047
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Giftedness
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on: September 20, 2008, 11:37:41 PM
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I
appreciate the input, but that doesn't mean that there are no resources
that can help you put together the experiences you've had to determine
which gifts you have. Not everyone can just conjure up the proper
memories or determine their meaning
jW
I think you
can have the gifts of the Spirit added. Or taken away. But like Willis
said , there are gifts we dont even know we have, or that we dont
understand what kind of blessings He is going to bestow on us in the
future. There is no coming to an understanding. Cause we are more in
danger of being put in a situation in which we only do these things of
spiritual value as they relate to our particular gifts and we get lazy
in areas where its obvious we should be pursuing. If being part of the
body was like joining a club where everyone had a responsibility, then
why would we need the means of faith in order to grow in to unity? We
are not just dealing with a responsibility, but we are dealing with a
personal devil and our own deception by our pride. I dont think the
focus is on us about our gifts.
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6048
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: September 20, 2008, 06:33:34 AM
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Well, those sacrifices did have a real
experiential return in bringing them. If you didnt want to be cursed
then you brought the sacrifice. But just going through the ritual did
not bring about the remedy. Because we are dealing here with man coming
before God in behalf of another man. And we are also dealing with the
covenant of grace. So that it was a continuous failure of the system to
conduct this ot law perfectly. Not only for the sin of the average
member of the covenant community but how the system of oversight was
conducted. So that we are left with the same experience in the OT as we
deal with in the NT with regards to ritual and salvific translations.
Men were always required to give glory to God. They were always required
to worship God and Him alone. Any other object of affection was an idol
. That is, those things that they placed as more important than the
true nature of things. There was this same tendency in the OT or maybe
more , to make the physical object the end of all that God was
requiring.
In the covenant of grace, there is only one way to have
acceptance. That was through faith in Christ. And even tho there were
these ceremonial laws, there was this transaction of faith that brought
men into a relationship with God through the future coming Messiah. The
covenant of grace was given to men so that men could be acceptable
before in not meeting the covenant of works. It was the only hope of
being saved, both as an experiential salvation in this life, and living
in this future hope to beyond this life.So that in the sacrificial
system was not a way to gain acceptance with God. There was no amount of
human work that could obtain acceptance with God at any time in this
world history. Thats why Abraham was justified before he was
circumcised. And just as acceptance in the covenant community was by
grace, so the identity of being one of the remnant was by grace and not
necessarily by circumcision. Look at Rahab the harlot.
But all
men do not seek God, there is no one good , no not one. All have turned
aside. And this is the state of men who belonged to Israel but were not a
part of the true Israel. And this is the condition of men who are under
the effects of sin. There is no other go between that would be
acceptable in the sight of God except God being that sacrifice. Since
men do not stand as being under the absolute judgment of other men, that
is even the priest were tied as a go between to the supernatural
articles in the tabernacle. So that all men stand before God as
unacceptable they were judged according to their daily sins. Blessed is
the man whos sin the Lord does not count against him. Why? Because God
had to have an eternal sacrifice to take away sin. So that men would see
that forgiveness is through His redemption, His alone. That He redeemed
men through His purpose for His end and men had nothing good enough to
add to His work. That is why we can rejoice as if we were given
everything in this life. We are only made to rejoice when salvation is
raised up above the level of mens designs and endeavors to glory in
Christ as the only real man. What we have here thoughout history is God
providing redemption through His Son, and speaking that salvation to man
through grace.
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6049
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: September 19, 2008, 09:42:55 PM
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I think it is very short sighted to think that
the animal sacrifice was able to take away sin. Since salvation was by
grace, then faith was rewarded as righteousness apart from sin. The Law
given at Sinai was to show men their sins. But there were other
instruments other than the animal sacrifice that was part of the
atonement purification process. There was the priest dealing with the
curses of sin. And these curses that were perpetuated as a result of sin
were taken care of through the priest through the articles in the
tabernacle. It wasnt just the wisdom of the priest. But it was
supernatural revelation in regards to these curses. If the blood of
bulls and goats could take away sin, then God would not have said, that
He was tired of this constant practice , and yet their hearts were far
from Him. Sacrifice and offerings you did not desire but my ears have
you pierced. It was always by grace of another that sin would be taken
care of . It was always within the plan of the Trinity to take care of
sin within the Trinity. Faith in the promise was always required in
order for the OT saints to be declared righteous. The only difference
between the old covenant and the new was that they were looking forward
to the coming redeemer, we are looking back. And even tho they had this
system as a temporary appeasement , yet when Christ came, He was the
only sacrifice that was acceptable for sin. Since sin was an eternal
affront to Gods justice, it took an eternal sacrifice to deal the death
blow of sins reign.
When Christ came on the earth, all of the
supernatural articles in the tabernacle were without Gods working. The
temple worship was dead. Since Christ was the sacrifice then He preached
repentance through faith from the beginning of His ministry. He came
and offered Himself as the supernatural sacrifice even within the midst
of the old system. If you can extent this back to the OT , then you will
see that they were hoping in the same way for the coming redeemer. They
had the pharisees who rejected the coming redeemer, and complained
about Gods daily provisions. The only difference was that Christ was
revealed in progressive revelation under the old system and the old
system was obsolete in its supernatural articles in the coming of
Christ.
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6052
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Forums / Politics Forum / Re: Bringing the bacon back to the States
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on: September 19, 2008, 04:37:37 PM
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this
can not be new to you can it? I find you a very well informed person
with a high intelect. this has been going on for a long time . remember
when china tried to kick our buts by withdralwing from the stock market
and then rushed to put it all back when their market went crazy because
of it? ok back to my overly anoying self  May
17 (EIRNS) - A Chinese scholar from a leading Beijing think tank has
confirmed to EIR that, despite the popular opinion in the west that
China's general population is rapidly getting richer, the standard of
living of the industrial, blue-collar workforce, supposedly at the
center of the booming Chinese economy, has not changed over the past 50
years. Combined with the continued extreme poverty of the agricultural
workforce, there is a dangerous potential for economic and social
instability across China in the case of a breakdown of the imports to
the US, or a similar economic crisis. The scholar also indicated
that this problem is at the center of President Hu Jintao's intention to
shift the underlying economic structure of China over the next year,
from a primary focus on exports, to that of enhanced domestic
consumption and a general welfare orientation, with a broad safety net.
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6053
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Forums / Politics Forum / Bringing the bacon back to the States
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on: September 19, 2008, 03:32:43 PM
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I dont know about you, but we are digging
deeper into this financial crisis. Throwing money into this mortgage
crisis is only going to make the prices rise to an unbearable level. I
think we need to make some drastic decisions here. Obviously Washington
has let us down as well as this monopolized business environment.
Washington is broken. Why cant we protect our interest by protecting our
State? If we make our own decisions then we would be an oil producing
state. It would take some balls to go our own way, but rite now this is
not working at the local level. And if we bring the decisions to the
local level then we will be able to maybe either by pass the depression
or be the state to help these other depressed states. I think its time
to protect our states interest. Ive seen this happen at the county
level. What say you? Or is there a way for the States to put pressure on
Washington at this time, to get more independence?
At what point does it become abandonment, when the bottom drops out?
I
mean seriously , think about this. We are nationalizing our economy.
Dudes this is socialism. Ok, look at it this way, our State would be
like Taiwan with China. This is how far we have come , look this is very
serious.
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6055
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: September 17, 2008, 08:56:57 PM
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There is a tendency here to watch out for ,
that coming to the end of yourself is coming to nothingness or a total
abandonment of anything of knowledge that is learned and becomes a part
of our sensual and spiritual desires. We are not a soul encased in a
body. But we are soul and body or we are soul and we are body.So that we
worship God with the soul and body, both equally important and equally
good. Selflessness is not divesting ourselves of a personal knowledge.
Or a knowledge that we have acquired in order to become like Christ. Or a
knowledge that is different as to our learning ,than a knowledge that
other people possess.This is very important to a self understanding and
is not a negative paradigm on selflessness. There is a sense in which,
if i acquire knowledge by long hours of study and long hours of
meditation, then i am going to get a payback on that search.
If a
person is to explain why he has so much insight then there is a
personal responsible reason for that person to be spiritually effected
by possessing more knowledge than another person. There is no apology
here . That would be false humility. There is nothing more backwards
than to have a society with the most respect of individuals going to the
least knowledgeable. For lack of knowledge my people perish. And SB
said the other day that preparing for the ministry is having more
knowledge than you think you have. The facts are that God does require a
close personal understanding of who He is by self knowledge or
knowledge accumulated by hard work. If we dont know who He is or what He
is pleased with, or what He is doing in the world , then there is no
amount of selflessness that He is going to reward.
I know we can
disagree and still have great times here is discussing. So i am not
offended or turned off by another view. Now if i take this world view
into the local church, well that is a different matter all together. But
this idea that all our physical faculties possess a corrupted component
and our souls are made perfect is as close to perfectionism as you can
be without actually being defined as a perfectionist. Cause our actions
are caused and not determined by us in willing. Any time we set
ourselves up to fail by self righteousness then our view of life will be
determined by chance. I mean we do not choose between our physical
corrupted appetites and our perfect soul with those perfect faculties.
First the reason there is a cause in anything we do is because the means
and the ends are the evidence of the cause . A good end will come from a
good desire, a bad end will come from a bad desire. It is from the
heart that a man does evil. So that if there is evil from my body parts
then the cause is in my soul. That is just for the sake of argument,
cause there is a relation in the soul between my physical senses and my
desires so that there is a cause prior to the choosing from my senses as
well.
I guess what i am saying is the teaching that is not about
me, but it is about me. Cause selflessness is determined by who God is,
that He has a perfect image of Himself, which makes all happenings to
be personally controlled by Him. Because if there was something that
happened outside of God willing, then there is something that is
imperfect in His image. There is something that is impersonal to Him.
And if there is something that is impersonal to God, then there is
something that He has left to exist on its own. So that it could not be
good since He did not cause it. And if He did not cause it then He has
no understanding in a personal sense. He did not cause sin, but He
determined that it would exist and He uses sin to show that He is
greater than as a personal display of His desires by that.This is a
mystery here. How could He be the most high if there is nothing beneath
that? How could His love be displayed in its value if there was no sin
as the back drop?
Since we are created in His image then our view of who we are is terribly important. It is just a personal.
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6056
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Forums / Current Events / Re: Did the US Government just buy AIG?
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on: September 17, 2008, 06:55:11 PM
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The
current situation is reminiscent of 1998 when many ordinary Russians
saw life savings wiped out. Analysts, however, pointed out that small
banking customers are now partially protected by deposit insurance and
the government is a much healthier financial state than 10 years ago.
"Is
this a repeat of 1998? Definitely no," said Kingsmill Bond, a
strategist at Troika Dialog. "In 1998, the government had a lot of debt
and very limited reserves. Today the Russian government has no debt and
huge reserves."A lot of debt and very limited
reserves??? Does that sound familiar? The Russian government went belly
up, if the US government doesn't watch it, we will be in the same
boat... Is this the begining of the end? 
Yes and how ironic, Russia is an oil producing nation and is not dependent. What has happened?
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6057
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Forums / Current Events / Re: Did the US Government just buy AIG?
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on: September 17, 2008, 06:53:25 PM
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The
current situation is reminiscent of 1998 when many ordinary Russians
saw life savings wiped out. Analysts, however, pointed out that small
banking customers are now partially protected by deposit insurance and
the government is a much healthier financial state than 10 years ago.
"Is
this a repeat of 1998? Definitely no," said Kingsmill Bond, a
strategist at Troika Dialog. "In 1998, the government had a lot of debt
and very limited reserves. Today the Russian government has no debt and
huge reserves."Yes and how ironic. Russia is actually an oil producing nation and not dependent on others. What happened? A
lot of debt and very limited reserves??? Does that sound familiar? The
Russian government went belly up, if the US government doesn't watch it,
we will be in the same boat... Is this the begining of the end?
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6060
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Forums / Current Events / Re: Did the US Government just buy AIG?
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on: September 17, 2008, 04:16:29 PM
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Their trying to buy jobs. Potential voters.
Its just like taxing the rich, the fall out is always on the middle
class.But in this case the ones who are always saying that the
Republicans are the party of the rich , well now, its just hypocritical.
Dont tell me the party that controls congress makes no difference.
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Of course. 
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