9769 Forums / Main Forum / Culture War/ Sacred Vs, Secular/ Etc... on: December 28, 2005, 03:39:04 PM We are not necessarily a democratic nation with a voting majority as the focus for change. We are a republic with the leaders covenanting that they will do according to the constitution with the oversight of the religious leaders. Really if you are thinking that party spirit will get that change you are looking for you are not understanding the way our nation was formed or the constitution and how we are set up. Actually only calvinist would understand our political system because it was from the original members of the church that were influenced the designers of our constitution. The real connection of political leaders and the people is when they put their hand on the bible , that should solve the imperilism problem but unless the spiritual leaders begin to speak out we are not going to have any accountablity to the covenant with the people. You know what happens to men who rule without moral direction. Anyway we covenant theologians understand the problem and we have a multiple problem. At least the arminist only have the world that hates them. We have the world that hates our message and the US religious community that cannot swallow our message. The history of our country has degenerated from calvinism to semi plagenism to pleagenism to hedonism. Thank God He is still in control. Just pray that we do not get what we deserve. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9770 Forums / Theology Forum / "let God Love You" on: December 28, 2005, 08:13:17 AM Quote I posted this in the broadcast questions folder and thought I'd cross post it here and see what kind of help you guys could give me. I'd really appreciate your insights. I'm reading Scandalous Freedom and I really love it so far. I love Steve and listen whenever I can. In the book, and often in the tapes and radio programs, Steve says that the way we get better is to "let God love you". That really sounds great, and I certainly want to believe it. The problem I'm having is that it sounds an awful lot like Carl Rogers "unconditional positive regard" ala "Person Centered Psychotherapy". Rogers believed that our problems were caused by the judgement and manipulation of significant others in our formative years and that by exposure to someone who accepted us unconditionally (the therapist) we would get better. My questions are a) how do I "let" God love me? and what scriptural basis is there for this view? How is this not taking a concept from secular psychology that has become an unquestioned component of the western worldview and attributing it to scripture, much like people often do with the phrase "God helps those who help themselves"? I'm not being a smart alek, I really am trying to reconcile this with how much I love Steve and need his message. And I fully expect that I am missing a key point and just need to be pointed in the right direction. David Tolbert That is a great question. The thinking is that in scripture we have a natural leaning toward a pride that we are blinded to. We think even as christians that if we got something for free that would make us feel uneasy and we would seek to discount that thinking as a lazy way of facing our problems. In other words we want to do something to please someone because we feel guilty for having evil thoughts and actions and desires. We are also programed by other people who have this problem in our families. The second thing is that we have a conscience that speaks louder than any other voice in us. We know that when the law and the conscience get together that we are going to be told that we are not doing what we are required to do. Our natural response is to do something to aleviate the consceince by a performance. We practice this so much that it becomes second nature to us. Now this is not just a thinking process but a power over our disposition. It is a mindset that holds us under its power. Why would the apostle spend so much time reminding us of our postion in Christ and the fact that we are not condemned if it wasnt a problem? ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9771 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 28, 2005, 07:50:54 AM Quote I would have to agree with Joker on this one. This, along with the teaching of God's loving only the elect are the main problems I have with Calvinism taken to its extreme. I do not pretend to understand all the mechanisms of saving faith, but this I do know, where the gospel is proclaimed, people will some to a saving knowledge of Christ. A question that may sharpen our focus on the issues at hand: Will there be people who will spend a lost eternity in hell, who would have been in heaven had I been faithful to share the gospel of the saving grace of Christ? I know that the hyper-Calvinist, in fact maybe most Calvinists in general, would respond in the negative, citing the soverign grace of God in salvation. As true as that may be, God has still given us the command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to everyone. We are to urge, to beseech, lost souls to be reconciled to God. And yes, as we go, we go in His strength, delivering His word, depending on the conviction of His Spirit to reach the hearts of those who are lost. We cannot save anyone, but we are to share His message with a lost and dying world. Bill would you rather be sent out to spread the word in a state of guilt thinking that the message depended on you ?Or having a warmness and natural usage of your abilities knowing that it doesnt matter in the end whether you give them the rite words? God will do the saving anyway. Just give them the gospel. God decrees that you will be in a situation and share your faith in the future. He decreed when the person you talk to will believe the message. You can relax and be yourself, no guilt, no second guessing. 9810 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 19, 2005, 10:47:52 PM Quote Peach, thanks so much for your graciousness. Sometimes, it's tough to question .. I miss Steve not being here because he didn't hesitate to bring forth questions that stirred him ... much braver than myself. I'm a little weird sometimes .. but one thing that is just as important as the answer of a given answer is the delivery of that answer. One can learn MUCH through just the ' delivery ' .. And Joker ... oh yeah! That is so great! Encourage each other in Him .. and let God be God, and let us, be ' just us '. And, let's just help each other in the interim from falling flat on our face! heartuggs - God loves everyone in His dispostion, but not everyone is going to be in heaven, thats obvious. So obviously He has not exercised His will because He there are certian persons who do not experience the saving power of God. Yet everyone exist because of Gods kindness and His general love. He extends to all men common grace and some can have a taste of that power without their wills being change by that power.God even extends to all men the free offer of grace but not all men respond to that offer. So it is obvious that some men reject the offer of God. Does that make Gods will too weak? No men naturally hate God because their minds and wills are naturally at odds with God and they show it by their actions. God calls the unregenerate mind empty because there is nothing of value in their thoughts spiritually. The fact that He allows men another day to repent in being exposed to the preaching His word is a sign of His kindness. The problem with men is that they are dead spiritually and so their disposition has no spiritual affection. That is why they need new life inorder to respond to the call of salvation. 9820 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 18, 2005, 07:50:04 AM Quote Quote In fact i thank God that my salvation depends totally on Him, i know He will not fail when i do all the time. So what role does faith have in this? Romans 4:9 "... Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." Faith is believing and trusting in Christ. In my self i cannot muster up faith it is a gift. An unbeliever is dead to spiritual things ,The natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God because they are foolishness to him neither can He know them because they are spiritually discerned.There is no one who seeks God no not one.For by grace are you save through faith and this is not of yourselves but it is a gift of God lest any one should boast. Salvation=gift.The wind blows where it pleases you here its sound but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going so is everyone born of the Spirit.We have been choosen in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight, in Him we have redemption though His blood in accordance with the pleasure of His will. When we are regenerated we are given new life and we can see our need for Christ and the value of His death and the definiteness of that death for us personally in seeing our sin. We then trust in Christ as the only hope of everything in life and death. We rest on Christ and His work in all of our trials and diffuculties of this life. We believe that without Him we can do nothing.We trust Him moment by moment. We take of Christ and we accept all of His demands on us tho not perfectly. 9822 Forums / Main Forum / To Be (legalistic), Or Not To Be.. That Is The ? on: December 17, 2005, 04:01:35 PM Legalism is trying to attach the concept of faithfulness to my justification. It is also not reminding me that i have the righteousness of Christ for my final justification and for my confidence in my life of sanctification. If the person has no rest in the work of Christ in His message its probably legalism. Its also focussing on the practical and potraying the doctrinal as secondary. Its \"God will help you when you help yourself\" teaching. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9823 Forums / Prayer Requests / Now For Something Totally Different on: December 17, 2005, 03:51:54 PM Im praying for you. I hope every thing will be alright and you will begin to resume your life after this trial. Dont over do it, take rest. God will provide. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9824 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 17, 2005, 03:45:43 PM I dont mean to introduce any other concept in my post other than the defence of Calvinism as it relates to free will. I just think it is wrong to paint Calvin and his doctrine as mean and God as represented as the mean oger. Any one who recieves salvation must have an outside will exercised over their own will in order for that to be a regeneration. Ariminism and Calvanism agree on this point because we both acknowlege grace through faith and not works. I was just pointing out the hyprocrisy of the attack on Calvin. In fact i thank God that my salvation depends totally on Him, i know He will not fail when i do all the time. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9825 Forums / Main Forum / Hiper-calvinist on: December 17, 2005, 02:41:39 PM Quote To me calvinism is a load of junk.. It means that God has a sledgehammer and may not choose to save my 8 year old son just for the pleasure of burning him. That's not the God I know. In Romans the Bible says that God places stumbling blocks in everyone's path, not to turn them away from Him, but to cause man to look TO Him. Everyone I personally know that got caught up in that movement ended up drifting away from the faith, just like most legalists. I know about legalists... I was one once. THANK GOD I'M FREE! So you believe that if your son rejects will Christ by his free will all of his life and then dies and then realizes he is wrong and begs for heaven who chooses to send him to hell at the day of judgement. Even in your system of free will you still have rules and Christ still chooses. No one would want to go to hell if faced with it physically. I say Christ chooses before the creation of the world, you say that Christ chooses when its to late. Whats the difference a spec of time in eternity? 9839 Forums / Theology Forum / Sale On Righteous Clothing on: December 15, 2005, 04:38:08 AM Thanks Bill, With justification we have the substitutionary atonement and the imputed righteousness apart from human work both as a means to our justification and in our sanctification in each act of obedience and our acceptability to the Father. So in justification our faith is a resting faith in the finished work of Christ and our faith in sanctification is an active faith on the bases of His imputed righteousness to us.So unless we are resting in the finished work of Christ we are not going to be acting from a good motive. And unless we trust in that imputed righteousness we are going to think better of ourselves in our obedience than we should and thus take the glory due to Him on ourselves.He gets all the glory! ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9848 Forums / Main Forum / Out There on: December 11, 2005, 01:13:10 PM Thanks life lover, i too have suffered depression in the past where everything narrows to a negative existence and what is out there seems so far away. Thoughts take over the dominance of life and things social become extremely diffucult. Its good to see you expressing your feelings. That can help. You know in the experience of the depression there is a certian change in our disposition that comes over us and it is hard to get away from. Then the other things of life irratate what is going on inside of us. Now if there is a God he knows what we are all about and what this terrible experience is all about. He wants us to be humble, but we sorta want to go farther than he designed in our negative mood. Yet because we go to far He goes there with us. The problem is that we do not sense Him there because we do not feel good enough to. So what He wants is for us to tell Him exactly how we feel and what is going on with our fears and asking Him to help us. The more we do this the more we feel one with Him. He came to earth and took on depression and all the problems and endured the cross He not only took ours but he took everybodies at the same time. Think about Him enduring all the depression of the whole world and then having to die. He knows intimately about our feelings because He experienced them intensely. What needs to be done is there needs to be a connection of Him becoming our out of that mood by Him speaking to us just the rite words to sooth our downess. Thats why i pray to Him, because i can have relief by a supernatural tonic ,a powerful pill. If i can get Him to communicate with me then i will have that pill. He has spoken in His word the bible and because he talks about depression in the book with His words come a breathing life into our depression. He breaths into us life. We bring our bad mood to Him and His revelation in telling Him what we are going through and letting Him communicate life to us by breathing on us by the word. Try it. It will be little by little as you go and pray and read. You are so blessed to be able to be in a situation where you feel helpless because that is where He can help. 9855 Forums / Main Forum / How Dare We ... Redux on: December 10, 2005, 10:43:59 AM . In himself. Let him pretend what he will, he hath slight thoughts of sin; at least, of sins of daily infirmity. The root of an unmortified course is the digestion of sin without bitterness in the heart. When a man hath confirmed his imagination to such an apprehension of grace and mercy as to be able, without bitterness, to swallow and digest daily sins, that man is at the very brink of turning the grace of God into lasciviousness, and being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Neither is there a greater evidence of a false and rotten heart in the world than to drive such a trade. To use the blood of Christ, which is given to cleanse us, I John i. 7, cotton ball. ii. 14; the exaltation of Christ, which is to give us repentance, Acts v. 31; the doctrine of grace, which teaches us to deny all ungodliness, cotton ball. ii. 11, 12, to countenance sin, is a rebellion that in the issue will break the bones. At this door have gone out from us most of the professors that have apostatized in the days wherein we live. For a while they were most of them under convictions; these kept them unto duties, and brought them to profession; so they \"escaped the pollutions that are in the world, through the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ,\" 2 Pet. ii. 20: but having got an acquaintance with the doctrine of the gospel, and being weary of duty, for which they had no principle, they began to countenance themselves in manifold neglects from the doctrine of grace. Now, when once this evil had laid hold of them, they speedily tumbled into perdition. This is convicting when you think that Gods grace is a ticket to a life of ease as i sometimes get caught up in. 9861 Forums / Main Forum / Fun Forum on: December 09, 2005, 07:25:13 AM Quote Quote There is nothing pleasant about my life and the only joy i have is when i focus strictly on Him. God makes us holy, not happy. Happiness is a choice we make. An attitude, perhaps. A way of looking at things. There is no joy apart from Truth, and the Word is a tangible reminder of Truth. A former pastor in Miami said it this way, "God is concerned with our character, not our comfort." At one point I didn't see anything good about my circumstances. Felt like the so-called Abundant Life was a cruel joke. But then I realized the problem was my definition of good and when I adjusted that, I saw that, while the circumstances in my life weren't pleasant, the circumstances aren't my life. Life is good, because He is my life and He is good. I'm not alone in the circumstances. There is a point that will be revealed one day. Someone once told me that before we come to the Lord, our lives are like paddle fans going in circles, spinning faster and faster out of control. When we become aware of the gospel, it's like reaching out for the pull chain, then holding on. As we do, the fan spins slower, gradually. By the time it comes to a complete stop, we're in heaven, beholding His glory face-to-face. Blessings. Peach Thanks Peach, You are very insightful and encouraging. I did not know you responded to me until now. I enjoy reading your post. Its hard when circumstances press in on a christian. There is a feeling that the world gets smaller and the temptations change from things to doubt and fear. Two things here, I see it as a fuel for pleading the promises and commanding the Lord to accomplish in me a greater understanding of His power by how my circumstances turn out. And then being able to cast my cares on Him in a more secure way than i have in my past experiences so that i can demonstrate that my confidence is not in myself but in Him. I feel like life is what i have seen in child birth. There are the times when we go through the 9 months and all the pain and all the insecurities and then when it comes time to deliver we experience extreme dire circumstances all that to hem us in and keep us from looking to ourselves for sustenence and our own ability to over come until we go through it and deliver the actual promise of deliverance that happens in that birth of light that increases our faith and our dependence on Him9870 Forums / Main Forum / Double Predestination on: December 05, 2005, 09:09:37 PM When I speak of regard to be thus adjusted in the universal system, I mean the regard of the sum total; all intelligent existence, created and uncreated. For it is fit, that the regard of the Creator should be proportioned to the worthiness of objects, as well as the regard of creatures. Thus, we must conclude, that such an arbiter as I have supposed, would determine, that the whole universe, in all its actings, proceedings, revolutions, and entire series of events, should proceed with a view to God, as the supreme and last end; that every wheel, in all its rotations, should move with a constant invariable regard to him as the ultimate end of all; as perfectly and uniformly, as if the whole system were animated and directed by one common soul. Or, as if such an arbiter as I have before supposed, possessed of perfect wisdom and rectitude, became the common soul of the universe, and actuated and governed it in all its motions. J Edwards We describe original sin as from a passive decree of God. He did not tempt to sin but He was as Edwards describes here.9880 Forums / Theology Forum / Encouragement For The Depressed- Spurgeon on: December 03, 2005, 12:27:53 PM There is a real delima that we are confronted with in our journey toward the celestial gates. It is when we have drifted from the refuge of the Lord and feel as though we have sinned enough to depart that we are tempted to feel as tho our praising Him is pointless. Yet it is always good to praise Him. It is always good to sing praises to Him. Circumstances should not determine our desires but rather our relationship to Jesus in these lean times are the determiner of our praizing Him. There is in creation of the universe a design for us to have examples of the attributes of God for us to visualize His revelation in that creation. On a cool night far from the illuminate light of the big cities we can look at the lights in the sky, and get a glimpse of the eternality and the understanding of who it is that is a Person of intricate details to the smallest degree in our lives. Even when we are falling we are being sustained by Him as He sustains the stars in their orbits. He upholds us with His power in our falling. Even tho we have been exiles in our circumstances where everyone has forgotten us and our friends have judged us gone forever, He is holding us from falling completely. He is bringing us to understand that nothing in this world is worth trusting in as the supreme object than Him. We praise Him in this delima because His grace is more powerful than our sin. So in our fallen state He is reversing the effects in us and healing us, and closing up the wound to be forgotten forever by Him in His Son. He is renewing us and gathering us along with the other humble ones to praise Him alone. Our God made a covenant with Abraham that He would make Him a father of many nations and that His children would be as the number of stars. We are Abrahams children by spiritual birth and have the same spiritual privileges promised in that covenant. We are one of those stars being upheld in that vast heavenly light show. Yet looking up beyond the stars we are confronted with a dark mysterious show of eternity, that is a bottomless view of space of eternal deminsions. There is the display of the might and the glory of God in His holding us up by His all seeing eye and His design of our lives by His infinite understanding. Yes just as He is sustaining those heavenly lights from His eternal abode in that dark mysterious space, He is bringing us to become a more bright star of eternal lumination of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Do you feel His presence. Dont let Satan convince you that you are beyond His care. Go to the night and think of His power to uphold the universal display of heavenly lights. Sing to Him in your darkest hour. It is fitting, normal , realistic to bless Him with our lips. To God be the glory!9906 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 01:46:53 PM I think in looking at the present condition of the church that we are revisiting the dark ages. Wait a minute i know what you are about to say. I dont mean to put any particular church in the mix because i think God has His remnant and He will get that last convert. But its not so much that there are not good knowlege out there but that it is so hidden that it is as if it were not out there. The majority of the churches have become institutions for what ever needs are there to meet. That in itself is not a bad thing. I mean there are instutions that offer something for a price, you know like the dark ages. It just is a more safisticated sceme than the days of Martin Luther. In fact unless we take a look at what spiritual worship is and focus on historical worship as the means for renewal we will only be falling into the darkness as if we had no bible and the ability to understand it. The agency of the church is Christo centric with a very simple but profound supernatural message. Freegrace offered! We have tried to explain free in relation to morals and that whole calvin arminian mixed in a persons theology, really free is really free in the right message. Free is protected by the 5 points not just to gain a spirit of unity. 9907 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 01:27:01 PM Quote Laws were meant to be lived by the way. Meditating on them is not a bad thing and has its place to be sure, but it's like thinking about eating. As long as you don't just think about food, plan your menu and contemplate the benefits that the food will bring in the future you will be fine. I know i have heard this before. It is the 20th century montra. There are the commands and there are the indicative. I hear this all the time, yet it leaves me thinking the wrong way about relationship in Christ. To me doing involves the passion that i draw from myself not from the guilt layed on me by other persons. I hear application to principles all the time but few examples of those applications. I really think we need to consider that we do very little of what we are commanded to do and so we need to take a more careful look at the atmosphere we live in and we enjoy in our doing. Look there are 10000000000000000000 of books on doing and we have more sin in the church than we have ever had before. Whats wrong? ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9908 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 01:20:26 PM Quote Can you read this passage over and over again for me and ask God to recreate in you His life and show you His eternal existence? Ok you are not just questioning my doctrine or beliefs, now you're basically questioning my salvation. Which is incredibly lame. I have tried to help you open up your mind a bit. You don't want to which is fine. SOmehow you think prattling off scripture and getting your propositions a lined up in a row is the extent of Gods ability to work in a person. Saying you are dependent but not surrendering your mind- clinging to your propositions is a deeper problem than you seem to realize. But it's ok. It's hard. Praise God for sending a saviour. As long as your faith in Jesus is genuine you will be ok. Im sorry that you take offense to what i asked. I would not ask you to do any thing that i do not do although not in perfection. I am not questioning your salvation but i am simply saying that all of us would be better off if we were going toward a more profound relationship with God through His word. I did not say anything about your salvation. It is not my place to question you personally. Maybe one day i will paraphrase a psalm that has to do with perseverance. A truely gracious view of our struggles. 9912 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 07:12:08 AM Oh the love of God how wide and deep. It goes to the deepest recesses of being. It covers the greatest sin and its love recreates a joy out of sorrow. How long will it be till that love has no competition, until faith becomes sight. It is a love that cause all other supposed loves to get lost in that love. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9913 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 07:00:21 AM See here is what i read over and over. The law of the Lord is perfect restoring or reviving the soul. The focus in contemplation is on the law of the Lord because my being a being is dependant apoun the divine breathing into the soul ,life by that breath. I live to be breathed apoun. That is what restores or it recreates what is missing inside of me so that it becomes whole. When i expose my mind to the law it is a light that is beeming from heaven that opens up the love of oneness that shines down into my being. It is the closest relational existence in a being to being experience in the universe. It is a oneness that recreates a completeness. Every space in the universe and in eternity is filled up with Him in which He is the all in all, that is the sustainer of each atom in any time existence. It is the power of someone in space in whom my being exist in His space for the purpose as to it beginging for Him and is ending in Him that makes my purpose real to me. That oneness in Him and His action in me is what makes my beings purpose dissappear in its present state and recreates a new state in His purposing to bring Himself the glory as my glory is lost in His glory, mine ceases to exist, for the purpose of ultimate oneness in His Son. So my getting lost or loosing myself is only in Someone who i am completely dependent on in that oneness in Him in His relationship with His Father in the Trinity. Can you read this passage over and over again for me and ask God to recreate in you His life and show you His eternal existence? ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9914 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 27, 2005, 06:39:09 AM See here is what i read over and over. The law of the Lord is perfect restoring or reviving the soul. The focus in contemplation is on the law of the Lord because my being a being is dependant apoun the divine breathing into the soul ,life by that breath. I live to be breathed apoun. That is what restores or it recreates what is missing inside of me so that it becomes whole. When i expose my mind to the law it is a light that is beeming from heaven that opens up the love of oneness that shines down into my being. It is the closest relational existence in a being to being experience in the universe. It is a oneness that recreates a completeness. Every space in the universe and in eternity is filled up with Him in which He is the all in all, that is the sustainer of each atom in any time existence. It is the power of someone in space in whom my being exist in His space for the purpose as to it beginging for Him and is ending in Him that makes my purpose real to me. That oneness in Him and His action in me is what makes my being dissappear in its present state and recreates a new state in His purposing to bring Himself the glory as my glory is lost in His glory, mine ceases to exist, for the purpose of ultimate oneness in His Son. So my getting lost or loosing myself is only in Someone who i am completely dependent on in that oneness in Him in His relationship with His Father in the Trinity. Can you read this passage over and over again for me and ask God to recreate in you His life and show you His eternal existence? 9916 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 26, 2005, 04:36:20 PM Quote I think ML is right in giving Merton a chance, when it comes to contemplative stuff. I am not sure how you set aside thinking...which is probably more lingo than something literal...but I can say that I have neglected the experience in favor of the rationally objective and I have neglected the rationally objective in favor of the experiential. The reason...I chose to except the false dichotomy that these things are at odds with each other....that the rational is at odds with the experiential and the experiential is at odds with the rational. At the very least, I used to force myself to think rationally when I felt the experience was driving the boat and when I was feeling really dry, I tried forcing myself to make the rational experientially real, which never happened..so I faked it. BTW, that's all Immanuel Kant, rather than Jesus, so to hell with the false dichotomies Smiley You can live a whole life, rather than a fragmented one, in Christ. I have a little bit of a different take on this. First of all the mind leads in any religious understanding. That is a just basic principle about faith. Experience follows the rational. If the faith has a misconception of understanding truth then the experience will be mysticism rather than true to faith. Calvinisim is the offers the absolute balance between rational and experience. The understanding of who God is and who man is will protect a man from degrading into mysticism. I dont see that it is an either or and that some people have a better grasp on one or the other. It really is the understanding and growth in the knowlege of God that deepens a persons experience. ReplyReply Reply with quoteQuote Notify of repliesNotify 9917 Forums / Main Forum / What Is Contemplation? on: November 26, 2005, 12:01:44 PM Thanks, My experience in contemplation which has been 30 yrs is that when the mind is engaged in ideas, they transform into propositions that form the basis of truth. To not have a mind veiwing an idea is to not have a mind activity which would eliminate the ability to proposition. Contemplation equals activity which has an energy source. If that energy source is ignored by not contemplating then it is just wasted in the realm of time. True contemplation leads to a rise in energy toward a physical exersition. Contemplating non existance does not lead to a complete usage of rational abilities. Ability in the rational process purposes purpose from that natural process of energy. 9925 Forums / Theology Forum / Mysticism And Christianity on: November 26, 2005, 07:13:40 AM Quote Since religion is not neccessarily spiritual let us consider that for men the mystery of his existence has been religiously explored by all manner of thought and inquirey. Truth is subject to the Creator of it and they who declare it are vindicated by what the unknown holds for them. Naturally, men regard what is not seen is imaginary: evil as a concept is invisible but we see it all the Time. Paul declared that what is invisible shall bring to nothing what is visable. Christianity is full of mysticism and surprises. And our faith which is invisible as a concept is visible in the conduct of our life and the nakedness we stand before God. To homogenize all spiritual doctrines is the corruption of the pure truth which extends only from the Creator. His doctrine is stated in the Ten Commandments and the given Law. The Son gave us the method to fulfill the requirements of The Law of God, with regard to salvation. We are subject to the mercy and forgiveness of God a truly light burden, As promised. snookyhook I agree that as long as you have a God that can do miracles and break into the natural order of things there will be the mystical. But our discussion is not about the mystical but about a pholosophy call mysticism. That is we are discussing what authority the word has in the whole of life. The bible defines those inner workings of the heart that are subjective but leaves alot of these workings to be mysteries. We can understand ourselves by Gods revelation as well as understanding who God is and what His will is. There is mystery in who God is ,also. We go to the revelation and we place our trust in its limits as to those truths we should know. So there are unseen workings that we can know that are mystical that are layed out in the scriptures. These are what we submit to. 9927 Forums / Break Room / So, How Do Yew Meditate? on: November 25, 2005, 02:28:12 PM You know that allegory is necessary sometime to send a message. Here i am the past two days in my mediation in which i open the door of a specific psalm trying to leave the 20th century evangelical empire and entering into the pryer centures by going into a Psalm. So i close the door behind me and inside the psalm is the presence of the Holy Spirit bidding me to experience a more simpler existence. There is many of the revival books on the shelves in this room all full of dust. Yet they still glow with power, the powere of justifying faith with no strings attached. No sales pitches, no offers of righteousness for a price, no temple courtyard tv programs with the latest with the latest systems to endourse. There in that room is the simple gospel with an over wheming presence for a real sinner and a spiritual pauper without a theological education and an endorsment from the latest teacher. No its just me and my bible and the Holy Spirits illumination shutting out all of the supposed infused righteous people to condemn my status. There is no price in this psalm just simple reality. Oh to be with some of the more simple ways of life, no tv, no radio, no alot of authorities that have infultrated modern society. Just the danger of imment death because of the lack of medical remedies. Yes but where would i rather be? In the desert or in Ejypt? Can i possibly realize that promises from religious men about being sheilded from declension in the churchs is a lie? We really are declining you know? Maybe we need more people wearing rags and churchs meeting in homes to free us from these religious idols. Oh to have a simple retreat to a feild to here the gospel preached by men with not much money but just sold on the gospel of grace and a personal encounter with the Living God apart from all of the religious idols. Oh for the simplicity of the Power Of THE Holy Spirit to be manefested on a grass feild and an open hand without strings attached to cause the attention to be pulled away from the power of God. I think our attention spans would go up if all of us practice spiritual worship with much care for the objects. Lets focus on the important things in the spiritual realm. Lets seek Him really, until we loose all the things and the idols, and the temple objects of insignificance then there will be a return to the revivals of yester years. I dont want to leave this room, i feel like a pesant. 9930 Forums / Break Room / So, How Do Yew Meditate? on: November 25, 2005, 12:49:21 PM Believing is the only way to have a since of security in life. To believe is to acknowlege a dependence on someone else in a moment by moment experience. That is taking that security of salvation that is in Him. The centrality of believing is a need to have the person come to your rescue. You see in Him the only way to be delievered because He is righteous and you are not. That righteousness is so important in who He is that He needed to impute it to you so that you could be righteous in yourself. That is the reason He delievers you in all of your circumstances. That is the reason that He is accessable to your comfort and your security. For a saint believing in Him is accepting that His righteousness was imputed to me and my sin has been taken care of at the cross. That is the central power in believing that is trusting in a Person and what He has done on my behalf. That is where the power of security exist. When i trust in Him in this way then my confidence to communicate to Him is securily confined as Him being my secret refuge in a public adversarial life. Believing is not just a one time transaction of His righteousness but is a continual going to that place of security, that place of trust and being delievered from these human delimas that are self inflicted or that come apoun us. Believing is a repeated montra on the lips of the righteous, just as Christ confessed His Fathers authority all through the gospels. It is the essential element in approaching a benevolent Father to experience the power of illumination in our meditation. It is comming with dependent words on our lips such as ,it take refuge in You, i trust in You, rescue me, deliever me,turn your ear to me, be my rock, hear my cry, come quickly. All these phrases are powerful lines in a believing in the heart. That continued believing in Him leads you to trust in Him as the only stirdy foundation on which you can stand. When you experience believing you will experience power and peace that is evangelical righteousness that has been imputed to you by sheer mercy and grace and even though the cry of you heart and conscience is that you do not deserve His gift you will cast that doubt to the wind because of your experince in that security. Only Satan would like you to hold onto that doubt so that He can convince you to dash yourself against that gracious Rock. The reality is that the unsaved who have not experienced the struggle of believing go head long into that Rock and are crushed. Not you though because of your confession and your constant struggle to believe. Yes that is evangelical believing mixed with corruption but solid because of His. Knowing that that place of trust is there is the other central power in persevering in believing. That place is not going to be pulled from you. He will be there to go to without reseverations ,without conditions, with out finite purposes as His intentions such as responding to some bessetting sin and aimed at you to punish you. In believing we see Him as always faithful, full of mercy, unfailiing love, compassionate, blessing. That is who we are dependent on in all of life. There are no intentions in Him to destroy us or harm us. What confidence we have in believing is a confidence that is 100 percent on Him in which He transfers His confidence in that imputed righteousness to us and believing is that power of confidence of another Person indwelling us in reality, that being God the Holy Spirit as our advocate as a immanent Person in our experience on earth. Unless we accept imputed righteousness we will not experience the Holy Spirits presence in a strong way. We will not go to God under any circumstances because we will draw back by corrupting our confidence in looking to our own righteousness as the means of believing. We must understand soveriegn grace and its power to accomplish what we cannot accomplish in ourselves. We must experience a transforming power in believing just as we experienced it when we first believed. You remember that radical transformation in your first confession to Him dont you? What you forgot was the simplicity in trust Him for that grace. Confess Him again, come to Him the same way you did at first. You have that hunger in you, it just is more of a struggle to see it because you are used to Him.