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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: November 26, 2006, 02:12:46 PM
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2 Samuel 24 1. Now again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."
The word translated incited
in the New American Standard version of the Bible is the Hebrew word
pronounced "sooth", which can be translated as, entice or move or
persuade or provoke or stir up. The King James version, for example,
reads: "Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.'†That
God moved David to conduct the census is a fact. That it was a sin to
conduct the census is not. Did David sin? Yes. The question to
answer, then, is what exactly was David's sin? I do not think the sin
was to obey God who told him to do the census. How could it be a sin to
obey God? Furthermore, how could God ask David or anyone to do
anything that is wrong? for Jesus' brother James writes: "When tempted,
no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by
evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own
evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed." (James 1:13-14) No,
God could not ask David to sin. It is a sin to tempt someone to sin,
and God does not sin. When David says, "I have sinned greatly in what I
have done. Now, O LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant.
I have done a very foolish thing." (2 Samuel 24:10) he was not saying he was wrong to obey God. So,
what was he saying? I believe he was admitting to God that his own
motives were wrong. It is possible to do the right things for the wrong
reasons. Paul makes this clear when he writes: "If I speak in
the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a
resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and
can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that
can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I
possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not
love, I gain nothing." (1 Corinthians 13) Is it wrong to use the
time, talents and treasure God has given us to help others? No. The
wrong is in our motives. If we do things out of selfish ambition and
not out of love, for example, we have sinned. We have sinned even if
good results for those who benefit from our actions. This is why i
believe David's sin was not in obeying God but in his motives for
obeying God. What those motives were, we can only speculate, because
the Bible is not clear what they were. What is clear, from his
confession and the context of the passage, is that he did he right thing
(conducting the census) for the wrong reasons (probably some selfish
ambition of his own). Therefore, i believe 2 Samuel 24 is not an
example of God tempting someone to sin, either actively or passively.
What do you think, MBG? 
Name a time when it was acceptable for a king of israel or judah in the old testament to count his men.
Why
does it say in Romans, Who can resist His will? If God was persuading
David then the persuasion was done for the purpose of having David count
His men unless God was begging David? God decreed for David to count
His men by persuading Him. Did God tempt David? No But ,really this is a
mystery. How can God get glory from someone sinning? By decreeing that
someone sins and then using it for His own purposes. But the only thing
we are told is that Satan and the rebellion in mens hearts cause sin.
Gods grace witholds sin. If men were free to sin as they are capable
then they would destroy themselves. In fact if men could see as God sees
their sin then they would be destroyed mentally. God is merciful and He
allows men to sin with impunity and is patient with them. At the same
time God decrees men to sin, and works out all situations for His glory.
Each incident is caused by God to direct history to its end. Even the
knowing the number of how many hairs fall to the ground. Even feeding
the birds of the air and causing the birds to die in large numbers. Even
a horses shoe coming off in the middle of a battle that causes wars to
change by not being able to deliver the needed message to the troups.
Every little incident has a purpose even the ones that we do not
understand. Because we do not see the whole picture as God sees it . And
we were not there when He planned everything to go according to His
will. We do not understand the reasons and we do not see the bigness of
evil the way God sees it. We do not have that kind of glory.
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: November 25, 2006, 02:45:19 PM
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In addition, are you saying that God makes Satan and demons to tempt us
to sin? or are you saying He merely looks down the corridor of time and
sees that they will tempt people and allows them to do so?
Heres
what the bible teaches. \"God does whatever He wants in heaven and on
earth.\" He has decreed every sin. In the garden man was totally
responsible. Man had the peower not to sin. Man had a free will. Yet God
was absolutely soveiregn and decreed man to sin in a passive way. God
uses all of the sins of man to bring about His glory. Look at Joseph ,
He said that his brothers designed their deeds to do evil to him , but
God designed it for good. Even in rom. it says that Pharoahs hardness of
heart was for Gods glory. God decrees sin passively.
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: November 25, 2006, 02:33:32 PM
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Unless we have saving faith we cannot
understand the power that we possess and the position as saints of the
commander and cheif our soveriengn Lord over every thing that comes in
our lives. We cannot understand the work of the Holy Spirit in the
illumination of His word to us and the intricate working in all of our
lives as we experience finite sensations but we live in an eternal
mindset with eternal consequences over all that we do. We must believe
that there is more than just physical sensations. THere is more than
just experiencing pleasure through the 5 senses. Yes there is an eternal
deliverence from ourselves so that we know that His love is better than
our lives. We live in that love even tho we degenerate into our life of
the 5 senses sensations. We expereince His love through faith and it is
through our desire to want that love over our own existence and our own
pleasure that we experience a supernatural existence. Being in Christ
is being under eternal desires for His love. We experience being under
the hand of His grace. When we struggle we struggle with our views of
being in Him. We struggle with the notion that we are better than we
are, and we are more diserving as a result of our goodness which limits
our faith and out ability to live in that love with our desires fully
focused on Him. But yet we have a good Spirit who opens to us endless
desires for experiencing that life above the finite and being able to
see His greatness and bigness so that we are confident that representing
His name means that we have an advocate that keeps us completely
acceptable to command respect as His child. Our minds are so renewed
that they know the rite path. Our abilities are more than we experience
because of the struggle we have with our ability to see t
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Forums / Main Forum / Anti- Judgementalism A Weakness?
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on: November 25, 2006, 02:08:56 PM
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"Love always protects..."
That
is the one part of the passage that seems to get overlooked. Sometimes
it's just not possible to avoid conflict and I believe this verse
indicates that passivity is not always loving. To protect others from
harm (either physical, mental, or spiritual), even if it's
self-inflicted, is sometimes the greatest of loving acts because it
requires putting the needs of others above or own.
The
circumstances that the apostle was dealing with were much different
than we have in the culture of the church. These members of corinth came
out of this baptism of the Holy Spirit in which there were miraculous
incidents occurring with that baptism. It was an experience as if men
were drunk with wine. The atmosphere was electric. So electric that the
church was meeting every day in a devotion to the scripture and to the
supper that was in a unity that was beyond our experience. They met to
pray and confess their sins to one another constantly. It was not in the
envroment of will worship. There were prophetic utterences, there was a
fire that was a fire of holiness. But it was a generation who crucified
Christ. It was the gospel preached in power by the apostles who were
themselves expereinceing a boldness that was supernatural. There was a
unity that drew the people to the message that constantly overcame their
devotion to worldly things and dumb down discipleship. They believed
that they had been unable to repent on their own, because the message
was so strong in so many people that the unified experience of
deliverance from sin was visible through the reaction to the message in
the large crowds. People were under such conviction that there was
weeping, real repentance, and really profound unified rejoicing. They
rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory, and the scripture says
that whole towns were unified in this baptism of rejoicing. ( a
reference to the churches in that comunity.)
They realized the
God was supernaturally saving and adding to the church by this baptism
of Christ with fire. The Holy Spirit was doing visible wonders in their
midst. They were convinced that the word of God had a profound effect on
the ministry of the Holy Spirit. The apostles spoke the word of God
boldly , that is it worked in that there was an instant unity in the
assembly so the people left knowing that Gods visible presence was
beyond those who were effect and responded to the message. There were no
invitations, just visibly supernatual expressions on each face. People
were brought to a supernatural rejoicing that could not be generated on a
human level.
There was a perseverance that was experienced in a
unified way. They met daily to peresever against the judiaziers. They
were persecuted and yet were growing stronger in unity and in numbers.
The worship was not only in jerusaleum , but spread into the whole known
world at that time. It even spread to the gentiles who were more unable
to recieve the message of grace than any other people. They experience
the baptism with fire so that the apostles had to acknowlege that it was
a wonder beyond their ability to play down. Even the roman leaders were
afraid of the multi
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Forums / Main Forum / Anti- Judgementalism A Weakness?
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on: November 25, 2006, 12:41:27 PM
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I think this just about says it all:
1 Corinthians 13
1If
I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am
only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of
prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a
faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I
give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but
have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude,
it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of
wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It
always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
That says it all Willis. And what was the background of the corinthian
church? As you know Paul was adressing some of the troubling sins that
were spreading in that church. And in that great city in which democracy
was as its height in that world at that time, yet that freedom that was
culturally like ours was infiltrating the church. ie in the Lords
Supper there was a general attitude of disrespect in recieving the
sacrement. Not only to the command not to eat in a flippent manner also
disrespecting weak brothers who were amoung them. There was a culture of
gifted people, and in a sense God had given that church the absolute
freedom that any one would expereince in any other setting. But they
were using their freedom for the wrong purposes. You talk about a
church that was filled with the Holy Spirit. There were good things
going on in that church. There was a sense of freedom in the preaching
that were so eperiencally wonderful and free that anyone in this day and
age would long for those lively worship experiences. And yet in that
culture of gifts and spiritual liveliness there was a tendency to look
down on each other. In Pauls letter to them he was begging them to not
take the table of the Lord lightly since there were people getting sick
and dying from that disobedience. He was also encouraging them to
continue experiencing the gifts of the Holy Spirit in private to the
fullest but when there was a gathering publically there needed to be
order in the prophetic utterance and the tounges speaking. It was a
culture that was being brought under control by the apostle because the
people had a very deep knowlege to the love of God. They needed to
understand that in order for the worship to continue to profit there
needed to be order. I think Paul was really respectful of the gifts and
we need to understand the nature of the culture that was in corinth. It
was miles ahead of the other cities as far as personal freedom and
economical stabilty.
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tudes of people who were following the way. Those
people had so much unity that it was a daily spiritual strengthening of
faith that changed the world.
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: November 25, 2006, 11:11:47 AM
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I was pondering, as I have before, the meaning of God's perfection and
sovereignty as taught in the Christian religion. Jehovah God is
absolutely and utterly perfect in absolutely everything and in every
respect. He is subject to nothing and nobody, including time and events
on that timeline. He's not subject to anything unknown, random, or
variable. With Him, these terms don't exist. Nothing takes Him by
surprise. If He says something will happen, what are the chances it
won't happen? Nil. If He says there's something He won't permit in His
creation, what are the chances that something will somehow sneak in?
Nil. Since Christians accept these things as axiomatic (or should,
anyway), using our severely limited understanding of God, our logic, if
used alone, cannot affirm the God as taught by Christianity. An example
is in order. God is not the author of sin. Now, some Bible teachers have
said (SB included) that while God didn't cause sin, He allowed for its
possibility in creation. That sounds pretty reasonable to us, but if we
accept that, in in light of the attributes of God already mentioned,
then that leaves us in a pretty pickle. An absolute sovereign God saying
that sin will occur in His universe guarantees it'll happen. It can't
be otherwise. Since it can't be otherwise, God would be the ultimate
author of sin. Using our extremely limited logic to come to this
conclusion, you can see where that leaves us. That is why it's
impossible to come to a true saving knowledge of Jesus Christ with human
logic alone. Even human generated faith isn't enough. Therefore, only a
faith generated in Heaven can bring somebody into an intimate
relationship with God Almighty. That and an ongoing sanctification is
all we need to trump our severely limited logic that would otherwise
cause us to reject Him and ultimately doom us. That is why God given faith is absolutely vital to our salvation.
We
believe that every event is decreed by God before the foundation of the
world. All things are held together by Christ. Even sin was decreed by
God. But this decree was not active in the sense that all of the other
decrees are. Because God tempts no man, yet Satan has not ability to
work without Gods decreeing Him for Gods purposes. So God does not tempt
man but God alows for Satan to tempt man. And God decrees that man will
come up against the forces of evil in the garden by being tempted by
Satan and that temptation is stacked against mans ability to overcome
that temptation. Even tho man was able to say no to the temptation, yet
being confronted with a personal devil was a monumental task. All that
God decrees are for the purpose of bringing Himself glory , even His
passive decrees. In man failing in the garden God is displaying His
greatness, that He not only has grace but that His grace is \"greater
than sin.\" He is showing His abundantness.
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: November 23, 2006, 01:13:49 PM
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Our
faith has only one object. That object is a person. Because we are poor
and needy we exist in a state of fluctuation and insecurity while we
are in this body in this finite realm. We experience the pain of all of
the people who are faithlessly questioning our faith. That really does
create more of a delima because we are always insecure in our own ways.
With this war going on inside of us that is pressing us and the war
going on outside of us pressing us we are left to be desperate not being
able to grow beyond the failure of being fully devoted to Him. So what
is our response to this poor state both inward and outward? How can we
experience strength and proof to those around us that we are devoted to
the object of our faith with a confidence that wells up from inside of
us and is evadent to those around us. We are so in a state of insecurity
that we flucuate in our confidence, and in that destress that we so
often experience we are left to cry out to Him all day long.
Our
faith is so tied to our devotion to Him that we have no confidence to
gain His mercy unless we are left to seek it all day long. We are so
easily led astray from Him that He must be all in all or not all at all.
Our devotion is tied to how we rest in Him. Our devotion is only
experienced when we are so fully convinced that unless we have all of
Him we are most misserable. So that after our resting in Him in our
helplesness we want so much to experience that joy in the Holy Spirit
that only He can create in us. We so want to know the joy of the Lord
that we get focused on Christ in crying out for mercy all day long. This
will result in our experiencing that joy.
Christ is the eternal
God. Just as He has caused us to close with Him as our only hope and
devotion so we are the object of His love. Our experience of being poor
and needy is really a blessing because of our experience as fallen
sinners we are so easily led to believe that there is something in us
that is good enough to merit His love. But seeing that He is eternal and
beyond our ability to be faithful we rest in Christ who is always
faithful and we are not. Our devotion is dependent on Him being loving,
faithful, and full of mercy. It is the object of our faith that makes
the experience of our believing so sweet. The devoted connection that we
have in faith is His bigness magnating that connection by His love
being felt and rested in by us. In His devoted covenant we experience a
devotion to Him that keeps us hungering for more of Him.
Now we
know that unless we have that experience our faith will only be dulled,
and useless. Unless we know and meditate on His love and faithfulness to
us as our being the object of His love for us we will only be dulling
our devotion to Him. We can experience a deep devotion by looking to Him
and resting in Him in His word and there is never a wearing out of that
devotion. His love is endless, His faithfulness is ever expanding, as
far as the east is from the west. His word is alive and is always a
present comfort in our time of need. His counsel in new every morning.
It is so real that our relationship to our world is as if He is our
friend standing with us in the midst of that constant derision. He is
just so real that there is always a third person in all of our physical
horizantal relationships. Yes , our resting in Him is having His
presence present with us, feeling Him sorrounding us, senseing Him near,
drawing out of us a devotion of a friend that is as real as our world.
When
we talk to Him as we walk with Him we can ask Him to give us a sign of
His goodness in a really practical way. If we really believe Him to be
our all in all then we really believe Him to be devoted as a friend in
all of our circumstances. See our circumstances are His way of
communicating to us His faithfulness. Just as a friend comes to our
rescue, so He controls our circumstances so that in experiencing that
devotion to Him goes beyond any other devotion to any other person. We
are so devoted to Him that He fills all of our experience. We only see
Him, groan for Him, plead with Him, feel the joy of salvation in Him. We
can be fully assured that what is not seen will be made manifest to
those around us. Our eternal advocate will manifest Himself on our
behalf to make a display of His eternal devotion to working all devoted
qualities , so that our devotion will be only alive in His devotion.
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