Does God draw to Himself only those who
want to be drawn (or who have the desire to be draw near to Him) or does
He also draw those who have no desire for Him at all? Here
we have been discussing desire. And since our choices are cause by our
desires then to have an ability to be able to choose based on equal
desires is no choice at all. As i have said if we are inbetween the
choice of salvation and damnation then we have no real choice there. But
the moment we desire salvation over damnation then there is a choice.
Equal desire is no desire.
As i have stated it there are equal
desires in the paradigm of free will then because there no actual choice
then the paradigm shifts to the object of having all the power. An you
know that unless the Spirit does an inward work in the heart to make new
the desire there will only be a desire to reject the gospel because
sin. And as the scripture says that men in themselves desire only what
is evil, (in the spritual sense.)
So if the exterior paradigm , that
is a preachers ability to convince, or a very profound invitation, or
people following other people coming forward after a 30 minute
invitation, then the focus is on the object rather than the condition of
the soul , and the actual biblical way of ability and human freedom.
Unless we do it according to the bible it will ultimately end in will
worship because of the focus going away from desire, to the object. Do
you understand?
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Forums / Theology Forum / Catholic Apologists
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on: January 19, 2007, 01:06:10 PM
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Indulgences are alive and well, even to
this day and regardless of how often it is explained people still choose
to misunderstand. I am not going to deal with this issue as
a works system for forgiveness but i am going to go at this in a
different direction. First of all the individual believer is not for the
church but the church is for the believer. I am in good company on this
one principle. If you go back to the begining of the nt church in acts
you will find that there was a very profound unity in the first group of
believers because of the out workings of being under gospel power by
the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And you will find that the initual work
was giving to one another moneis. Because Christ gave His life for us we
too should give our lives for one another. And the first leader to be
lodded was Barnabas. Now barnabas was an example of what a member of the
church should be doing. And that was selling his property and giving it
to those who had a need. Now it was never said of Barnabas that he was
in the church for himself. Acts account makes Barnabas the prime example
of taking care of the flock of God. It is interesting that the anti
thesis of the principle of the verse that says they devoted themselves
to the apostles teach , to the fellowship and to the breaking of bread ,
and then there was no one in need as a result of this kind of unity. Or
this was the evidence that the Spirit was amoung the first church, the
Annanias and Saphira were not in the fellowship in line with the Spirit.
But it was not just the amount of money here that the Holy Spirit
judged them about. But it was the intent of the heart in the lying about
the amount of money. Which shows that they were more interested in the
public view, sota a pharisee in the church, than they were in helping
others. This was in direct contrast to barnabas. In other words they
represent the people who give to be seen by others, whos heart is not
enlarged by how much Christ suffered for them. They represent the
indulgent mentality of the church. How much the world system has blinded
the minds of the members as in contrast to the early church were there
was no needs because of the giving. They represent the men who send
their wives out into the world to provide a cushion for their own
profit. Now not all women in this situation are in the wrong, but when
the marriages of people are suffering in the church more than outside
the church then the indulgent mentality must be explored. And this
really is the ot principle. God over and over and over again promises to
meet every need. In the covenant God has promised to suppy all our
needs. It really is a lack of faith that makes the proverbs a book that
creates a system of secularistic loopholes in scripture for the
indulgent mentality. There is only one man in the proverbs that is
lauded. The man who is like Barnabas, the giving man. Or like Job. And
so this is the initial evidence in the beginings of the church that
shows the level of Christ giving Himself for the church.
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 19, 2007, 08:53:01 AM
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So why does God allow some to carry the
desires of strong habits in thier members? Allow?? I hear that...you see
we can explain through any means our limited or vast knowledge BUT they
still exsist.
I have thought about this in light of the sins
of the fathers, visiting, or it is the kind of fear of God that was
ingrained in the child through the philosophy of life that visits the
child. In any habit we are desiring to sin greater than we are desiring
to live righteously. But in regeneration we are changed and we are made
holy by Christ righteousness. That is we recieve new desires that are
intrinsically stronger than our desires to sin. But there is a growth
process in all of this. The principle is not that of equal desires, but
the principle is we have new desires and we must become aquainted with
our new desires. We must reckon ourselves to be righteous as we are made
in Christ. In our former life we were used to viewing reality as we
understood our relationship to God and living without the fear of God or
with the fear of God. That is the reason we understood life in the way
we did. That is the reason we chose to go along with the habits of our
forefathers. And even so we see that God also incorporates earthly
fathers in a group. That is we are susceptable to the sins of a
generation of fathers by the philosophy of that generation.
So as i
have stated that there are some things that we must be original on as a
new generation. We must rebell in the sense that we are determined to
see the sins and we are not going to repeat the sins. Remember that a
generation of israelites was not able to enter the promise land while
they were still alive. I mean they were set on the shelf so to speak.
There is a sense in which what we desire over a number of years will be
so ingrained that we are not able to overcome the habits so that we are
seen as mabey a Solomon, or even a reprobate.
But fathers are
spriritual fathers mainly. We are to be original in the sense that we no
longer serve masters that are bringing us along in a world philosophy
but we are to look to our spiritual fathers so that we learn how to over
come our philosophical blindness. So we must be in the process of
opening up the wells of Abraham that have been covered over by past
fathers. We must be original in this opening process. We must get back
to the basic fundemnetals and start from the begining at the bottom of
the well.
And i think this is where we find ourselves in this
generation. Do we have the bravery to see the contrast, and expose the
truth in an apologetic fashon or are we going to repeat the sins of our
fathers?
But we really are being changed by grace. If we view
these things as God views them in some fashion then we will be able to
over come the wrong desires. It is like we have been changed but we do
not realize it at first in a really circumspective way. The desires are
not very profound and so we do not have a really good understanding of
the Spirit and the unseen ways. But we look at our lives as believers in
that we are going to struggle with sin. We are going to wage war with
sin and the world. We are in the present in a feirce battle. And the
battle has already been won. Every day we fight we fight a battle that
has already had a victorious outcome. The problem is we are blinded by
our sin, and the worlds philosophys. We are duped. But we are so much to
be in prayer so that when we see a falsehood we immediatly reckon it a
lie and we oppose it. And so if we lay down our arms and become passive
in the struggle then we are going to continue the bad habits that are
going to be a weight around our necks.
And as we engage in this
battle we are all gifted in different ways . So we are going to be like
minded in our approach but our workings are all going to be different.
As we are confessing sin and rejoicing in Christ. As we are becoming
more like Christ, and as the Holy Spirit is working in our hearts we are
gaining confidence in the supernatural process and our faith is going
to increase against the opposition. So that when we look back in the
past we are going to say , i have obeyed you law , i have kept your
statutes. Why , because we are always warring against the world the
flesh and the devil and we are living in the righteouness of Christ. We
are reckoning ourselves to be what we are.
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8012
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Forums / Theology Forum / Catholic Apologists
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on: January 19, 2007, 05:43:32 AM
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Ok is it reasonable for Catholics to believe the words of Jesus when
He says "For my flesh is real food". Now I may have been dropped as
baby but I tried to to change the meaning of 'real food' into 'symbolic
food' or 'figurative food' and for the life of me I couldn`t. There
is something about the words of Jesus, He says heaven and earth shall
pass away but His words will not pass away, and I suspect He is right. So
is it more reasonable when Jesus says "For my flesh is real food" for
me to then to say "No it is not real food its only symbolic and
figurative food." Jesus would have kept all of those disciples in John 6
if only He told them He was kidding and explained He meant His flesh
was symbolic food. I get the feeling I would have to conform and subjugate the words of God to my opinion to do that. Since people are keen on salvation the question is "How is your average beady eyed catholic or anyone for that matter saved?" "For
all of us must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each
may receive recompense for what has been done in the body, whether good
or evil" (2 Cor.5:10) "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done" (Rev 22:12) "Not
every one who says to me ,Lord,Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"(St. Matt.7:21) “What
does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not
works? Can his faith save you? ... So faith by itself, if it has no
works, is dead ... Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith
apart from works is barren? ... You see that a man is justified by works
and not by faith alone ... For as the body apart from the spirit is
dead, so faith apart from works is dead†(St. Jas. 2:14; 17; 20-26). Faith alone is mentioned twice in scripture and each time it is condemned. For catholics it is; By grace (Eph. 2:  . By Christ’s Blood (Rom. 5:9; Heb. 9:22). By Christ’s Cross (Eph. 2:16; Col. 2:14). By faith in Christ (St. John 3:16; Acts 16:31). By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet. 3:9). By baptism (St. John 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:21). By confessing publicly with our mouths (Rom. 10:9). By knowing and adhering to the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). By obeying the Commandments (St. Matt. 5:19 & 19:17). By the doing of good works in faith (St. James 2:24). For catholics it is not one or two but all requirements that must be met for salvation. "Everyone will hate you because of me , but whoever stands firm to the end will be saved" (St.Matt 10:22)
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8013
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Forums / Theology Forum / Catholic Apologists
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on: January 18, 2007, 04:27:51 PM
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St. John 6
\"Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have
no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal
life, and I will raise him up on the last day.\"
\"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?\"
Easy!
\"For my flesh is real food and my blood real drink\"
How?
St Matt.26:26, St. Mark 14:22,St.Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 10:4-21
\"Jesus
took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and
said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and he had given
thanks he gave it to them,saying, Drink of it, all of you; for this is
my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the
forgiveness of sins\"
Any comments so far before we move to the next one?
We
do not accept transubstanciaon because we do believe that Christ was
fully God and fully Man, and that these natures were unmixed. We believe
that His body is local, not being mixed with His eternal nature. So
that it is impossible for His body to be spread all over the universe.
It is a fundamental difference in our views of the trinity.
We
see that what is of nature the water and the bread are not changed into
what is not natural. All natural things remain in the natural. Any other
attributed form to natural is mysticism. That is the percieved truth
comes out of the mind of man, and is not revealed truth.
There
are those who see the elements of communion as like saying the pledge of
alegiance. That is when we face the flag we remember our independence
and we have that as a remembrance strickly. So with the elements of
bread and wine. They are strickly a remembrance.
But really we are
proclaiming the Lords death and ressurrection by taking the communion.
The elements are what nature made them but the Spirit takes the elements
gives us grace, these are a means of grace. We are being strentghened
by the Holy SPirit in taking communion. We are having a very profound
experience of fellowship in the death and ressurrection of Christ in the
sacriment. We are recieving life by His body and blood. He is speaking
to us a peace that surpasses any experience we could have on this earth.
He is coming as Lord to us in the communion. We should have a profound
sense of wonder, love and amazement from partaking of His body and blood
by the Spirit applying grace through the sacrement.
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8015
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 18, 2007, 03:46:57 PM
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What is it in me that chooses the stronger
desire over the weaker one? Is it the Holy Spirit who has somehow
possessed my body or is it my very self (my soul or spirit or mind) or
is it both or is it perhaps something else?
Soc,
It comes down to the condition of our souls. We can be a christian but
yet because we have developed bad habits rarely are they taken away from
us at the point of our new birth. That is why we may have problems in
different areas of desiring sin over righteousness. As i have stated
that desire is what causes choice. The mind views the object based apoun
many factors. Our past experience is one of the factors. If we desired
strongly a certian sin in our former life then our bad habit would
effect how we desire that sin in our new life. We all come with souls
that have been conditioned by our experience. So our understanding of
what is rite and wrong is effected. We also have likes ,dislikes that
affect our understanding. We have different personalities that effect
our understanding.
When we are born again, given new life then
we get new desires. The desire to glorify God is the end for which we
live since we have left our way of thinking and we have a new way of
thinking. These new desires effect the condition of our souls. As we
grow in our new desires we begin to develope new habits. Our minds begin
to be transformed by the word of God and our souls become more like
Christ. The new desires are beyond our ability to aprehend completely
since we see through a glass dimly. They also come and go, up and down,
sometimes they can be very strong, sometimes they are very weak. So we
are never really fulfilled in this life. As we read His word we are
looking into the glass and we are seeing the image of God in the face of
Jesus Christ. We are gaining deeper and deeper desires for His glory.
Because our minds and understanding begin to have spiritual feel, touch ,
taste, and site we begin to have these senses enlarged so that our
spiritual desires begin to increase and our frequency to have bad habits
decrease. In this way the condition of our souls are transformed. Its
really not the process of conditioning, but it is the process of
deliverence by Christ by over coming our bad habits through looking into
the glass and seeing our selves through His word.
It is also a
process of renewal. We are being renew daily by being washed of our
sins, and by being energized by His Spirit, and by responding to His
word with praise and adoration. If we begin to develope the spiritual
senses, we will begin to enlarge our view of God. We will begin to know
the awsomeness of God, the power of God , and the absolute soveriegn
control of God. The nature of God and the nearness of His divine
presence will shine into our spiritual eyes the glory of Christ. When
Christ becomes sweet, that is the very mention of His name , wells up
desires of adoration, we are gaining a very profound glory , to glory
transformation.
Unless we sense that God does what pleases, then we
will not be in the position to pray as we should. Believing prayer is
trusting that we are bringing ourselves before the throne of grace in
order for us to begin to be changed by Him speaking peace to our souls
through His word and the testimony of His Spirit. And our Heavenly
Father calls us to Himself directly. Our Fathers voice is recognized by
His sheep and we know Him by His calling us. In the very beginings of
salvation we hear His voice and He subdues our wills. We actively submit
to His will in believing as the other side of faith. We not only trust
Christ be we obey His will in believing. Because HE gives us a new will
at regeneration. But the Father is with us as well as condescending to
us. (Rev.)
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8016
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Forums / Theology Forum / Catholic Apologists
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on: January 18, 2007, 12:32:24 PM
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I apologise if I have dived into your forum fairly aggressively, its
just that I gave brief warm and friendly introduction of myself on a
Presbyterian forum a few days ago and was booted without notice and a
nasty reply from their admin. I think it was the "Hi Im Greg and I`m a
Catholic interested in theological discussions and I would like to
share biblical understanding from the Catholic point of view and get
some feed back from your tradition. God bless, Greg " , that really
upset them, because that was as far as I got.
It seems everywhere
I go there is enormous hatred of Catholics and especially in the last 4
work places Ive been in, and all from protestant, evangelicals and
fundamentalist christians. All those years of calling the Catholic
Church "The Whore of Babylon" and our Pope the anti christ has really
paid off there no longer seems any way a Catholic can befriend other
christian groups or recieve any kind of acceptance.
So I am sorry that I came storming in and thinking the worst of you guys and expecting to be booted off.
This is not the usual forum setup I come across, where exactly have I landed?
I
welcome you, and i hope we can discuss these things in a way can you
understand my position and i can completely understand your position so
that there will be a more clear understanding of the fundemental
differences in the minds of those who veiw this discussion.
I was also hoping that Soc , could enter the discussion and to lead this because of his gifts in this area.
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8017
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Forums / Theology Forum / Catholic Apologists
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on: January 18, 2007, 12:24:23 PM
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I apologise if I have dived into your forum fairly aggressively, its
just that I gave brief warm and friendly introduction of myself on a
Presbyterian forum a few days ago and was booted without notice and a
nasty reply from their admin. I think it was the "Hi Im Greg and I`m a
Catholic interested in theological discussions and I would like to
share biblical understanding from the Catholic point of view and get
some feed back from your tradition. God bless, Greg " , that really
upset them, because that was as far as I got.
It seems everywhere
I go there is enormous hatred of Catholics and especially in the last 4
work places Ive been in, and all from protestant, evangelicals and
fundamentalist christians. All those years of calling the Catholic
Church "The Whore of Babylon" and our Pope the anti christ has really
paid off there no longer seems any way a Catholic can befriend other
christian groups or recieve any kind of acceptance.
So I am sorry that I came storming in and thinking the worst of you guys and expecting to be booted off.
This is not the usual forum setup I come across, where exactly have I landed?
I welcome you, and i hope we can discuss these things in a way can you
understand my position and i can completely understand your position so
that there will be a more clear understanding of the fundemental
differences in the minds of those who veiw this discussion.
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8023
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Forums / Main Forum / The Issue Of Contentment
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on: January 17, 2007, 07:57:55 AM
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There
is nothing wrong with complaining. I agree that the blame for things
that we go through are a result of our own sin and the sin of those
around us. Wicked men are busy with their scemes and after two hunderd
plus yrs of our countries history the scemes are deep and wide. The net
has been laid and the traps are all around us. Just look at the rapid
rate of abortions, the marraige crisis, the decrease of the middle
class, and the rise of religious phariseeism and all of these forces are
pushing in on the younger generation and even our generation. These
traps are real and there is a price to pay.
Yet God is absolutely
soveriegn. He is in control of every thing that goes on in our lives.
The best thing to do is to pray. Usually our reasoning falls short at
this point in our complaining. We know He is God in an intellectual way,
but we are not persevering in prayer so that we know that at any moment
He is able to change our circumstances and lighten our burden. Because
of technology we are used to dealing with all of the trials of our lives
in an impersonal way. The impersonal delima we are faced with is just
as dangerous as the traps of the world because the impersonal feelings
that we have are part of the lack of faith in a personal God. The
impersonal world of technology creates in us the mindset of the world in
which we are susceptable to living in guilt, fear ,and blame.
In
the theological world view were are brought near to a personal God. In
this paradigm the pleasure of experiencing the power of God is more
important than dwelling on the moral implications of a situation. The
impersonal world is a world of compromises, of a detailed plan of
integrated moral propositions in the accountability paradigm. It is an
intricately woven moral pharasiesm with the law as as the cental power.
That is why when dealing with one another in the biblical theological
world veiw , we are dealing with a personal God who is praised as a way
of getting along with one another. As we sing psalms, hyms and spiritual
songs, we are speaking to one another in a personal way because we have
and understanding that God is God!
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8028
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Forums / Theology Forum / Which One Is The Gift?
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on: January 15, 2007, 03:06:28 PM
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...Faith is not a faculty but it is an agency. I have stated that every
one has human faith, which is not saving faith, but it is still our
faith. My point is we and our faculties do not get anialated in order to
become christians. To not
be able to aprehend divine knowlege and want to obey that command is to
be in a state of darkness and rebellion. That is the reason we are not
able to use faith for divine things. If we have no desire for divine
knowlege we will not view in our minds the glory of Christ then we will
not trust in Him
alone. Unless we understand that He is worthy of our trust by a divine
knowlege then we will have no desire for Him and we will not have saving
faith. ...
MBG: For the dimmer among us (me included) are
you saying that saving faith (or putting one's own trust in Christ alone
to save her from hell) is not an ability but is an action? In other
words, are you saying that we are unable to trust Christ until God
enables us to do so?
Yes, we must be enabled first , because the
faith is a gift. It is a gift in this way. We must be given a new will,
\"I will cause you to walk in my ways\". There is nothing in us that we
can do to have the initial grace. In fact every thing in us is anti
grace, is against saving faith , and is at odds with all that is in
salvation. First we must have a divine knowlege so that we can see
,feel, touch ,and see anew and we are given a new will so that we can
embrace Christ. \"Not by works of righteousness which we have done but
according to His mercy has He saved us.\" Would you say it is
more accurate to say that witin the Christian the old sinful human
nature is not erradicated but is always present with a new nature the
God has created within him. That is, would you agree the Christian has
two natures (one good and one bad)? We
are made holy, and we are called Saints. We are made holy difinitively.
That is we are seen as completely holy. Because we are seen as being in
Christ. We are Saints and that is our new identity. We died to sin so
that sin no longer has reign over us. We reckon ourselves dead to sin
because we are in reality dead to sin. We died with Christ in His death
and we are raised with Him in new life. We are seen as in Christ. We are
identified with Him. There is not an equal power of sin and
righteousness in our identity with Christ.
But we still have the
remnants of sin. Paul says in me dwells no good thing. That is we in
ourselves apart from Christ or in our carnality we are ungodly. We still
struggle with sin but we are getting better. The only victory in
reckoning ourselves dead to sin is the death and ressurrection of
Christ. We are dealing with sin, not by a legal way any more. We are
dealing with sin by grace. We no longer have the pangs of death, that is
the law as a school master relationship. We no longer are burdened with
guilt as an unbeliever with no hope. We are always getting grace for
sinning, and so we always come out victors over sin that we have
committed. Our relationship to the law has changed and our confidence is
not in our keeping the law, but is in Christ obedience put to our
account.
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8029
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 15, 2007, 02:34:17 PM
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Thanks
Soc, I am not to familar with computers. It is interesting as to what
you have said in your comparision. With my limited knowlege i would say
the the mind is like the mother board the hard drive and the computer
chip, and maybe the desires are the program. Thats my two cents on that .
Now is it the strength of the desire (the physical
desire or the spiritual desire) that determines what choice the person
(the conscious layer) will make, or is it something else besides the
desire? What if the desires are equally strong (if such a thing is
possible). Would the conscious layer of a person still be able to choose
one desire over another?
[span
style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Lets say the desires are
equally strong. So there was no choice, then the desire to not choose
would be the strongest desire. Or if the was a choice between the two
and the two were chosen because the desire was equal on the objects ,
then the strongest desire would be to choose the two.
The
highest layer, the spiritual layer, has a different desire. This layer
communicates directly with the Holy Spirit and the two concur that
smoking is a sin. This communication might take place on a level above,
or beyond the awareness of, the conscious layer. The spiritual layer
then passes this idea from the Holy Spirit to the conscious layer so
that the mind now considers the thought that it is a sin to smoke.
In
order for there to be a choice the body must function as an evidence. I
mean you can desire to have something and not get at it because if you
do not move your body to that object then your desire to not have it is
the strongest desire, since your body did not actually move toward the
object to get it.In choice there must be an actually choice of an object
by the entire person or it is a desire to look at yourself in a
dicomotimist way that is the strongest desire to not actually choose. [/span]
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8030
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Forums / Main Forum / Too Much Reality?
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on: January 13, 2007, 01:08:45 PM
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This
is an extremely complex reality to even understand enough of our own
reality to know even 50 percent of who we are when we look at the
potential of our self knowlege. We can say that God knows us absolutely
and He understands the beginning of who we are and the end of who we are
both in time and intamicy. So is it important to have that kind of
reality that God has about us?
First it is impossible since we are
made up of body and spirit for us to know every thing about ourselves.
First because we do not see spirits and we do not understand what each
faculty of spirit in all of its reality to be able to examine , mold ,
guide , divide and change. God looks into our spirits and like a doctor
does a spiritual operation. Because we do not see as God sees our
spirits we get sensations that are going inside of us as we are filled
with the word and Spirit and these sensations of peace and fruit of the
Spirit are healing balms that are like a scouple of a surgeon to work
into our souls a spiritual healing in exactly the rite time at the pain
and change that we need to experience. This is where we meditate on Him
and we alow the word to penetrate our soul and body to divide our loves
so that we will only love one Person. It is a mental exercise because we
are being transformed in our understanding of who He is by this
mystical operation done apart from our willing and effort, we are as it
were resting in Christ as we ponder the message of the gospel and the
love of God that us unconditional in the usage of His operation since
Christ did all of the work on the cross in healing. We begin to focus
mentally on the deep things of God, we begin to view Christ with
spiritual eyes. Our souls are given eye salve as we rejoice in the
gospel. The Spirit uses our pain as a cautering technique to keep us
from spiritually bleading to death and loosing the focus and power of
Christ that deepens after the wound is sutured. What we do is focus on
what we see. The exercise of meditation seems trite to our finite
thinking. We are averse to contemplate the inward operations that a man
goes through in this world since we get preoccupied with the physical
universe. We fail to ingest the word of God and in failing we loose so
much time in the flesh warring after the lust of this world rather than
being put to sleep for spiritual operations so that we can be change by
the renew technique of Gods instruments.
Dont be afraid to ask
God to search our hearts. Because He is holy the instruments He uses are
not moral clubs and human techniques. No He comes to us in such awsome
ways with absolutle power that we are trembling in the greatness of His
love, bowed down in that beautific vision. We are left to worship Him
because of all of the sensations by operations and the scares that are
healed so that the focus of our lives are lost in eternal
contemplations. What power we experience is over bearing and the power
of the flesh has lesson with so much searching. We begin to understand
that God is holy in His presence. We begin to have sensations that we
know when God is near and we are so sastified in that presence that we
have no other option but to have another searching, another surgery so
that we become lost in Christ, with a most profound knowlege of His
presence keeping us from the power of the world, the flesh and the
devil. We beging to have a thick layer of spiritual skin, a really
powerful spiritual antidope so that the discipline we go through in the
operation is a means of so much grace that instead of us being weakened
by the operation we are given more strength after the operation as a
result of our sin. Christ reigns, our life is hid with Him. We are
becoming more and more into His image. An this includes these inward
sensations.
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8032
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 13, 2007, 09:06:53 AM
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Looks like i got carried away and said too much. It's a flaw when i
become interested in a topic. Keep forgetting that God gave me two ears
and one mouth perhaps to remind me that i should listen twice as much
as i speak.
Sorry, all. I'll sit back and listen now.
No
Soc, you are an intrigal part of this thread. You are helping us get to
some really fundamental issues. Keep it going. Thanks.
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8033
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 13, 2007, 09:00:16 AM
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...The
desire preceed choice. You cannot choose to desire, the will being the
effect not the cause. I can argue my point if you want here.
If i may ask, are you reasoning that the will is not the cause but is merely a result? That is are you arguing: A. God is the cause of all desires and all choices we make B. Our desires and choices are the results of God's choices and not the cause of our own minds or spirits or souls C. We desire salvation and choose to trust Christ alone to save us Therefore D. God causes us to desire salvation and choose to trust Christ alone to save us and, returning to J69's original question, do you also hold this conclusion? E. Faith (or trust in Christ) is caused by God and not by our own minds or spirits or souls
Thanks Soc, I like the way this thread is going. Here is what Joker wrote So
when you hold someone accountable for their choices, you are basically
trying to condition them to associate the choice with an existing
desire. i.e. this choice brings pain (which you desire to minimize),
that choice brings pleasure (which you desire to maximize), this other
choice endangers self-preservation (which you desire to avoid).This
is a very interesting statement filled with all kinds of different
concepts that need to be talked about. First i am not sure we really
understand the reasons we desire one thing over another in the
conditioned paradigm.At this point we are getting into the realm of good
habits- bad habits. Habit forming is in the understanding of the object
in this paradigm of conditioning. And in the conditioning paradigm what
rises to the top as a principle is the moral element i.e.
accountablitiy. The question is not whether we are accountable but
rather what we are most pleased with when we are going at the desires.
In
the formation of our view of the objects in our understanding there are
these past expereince circumstances that come into play but these are
not the core of why we choose one thing rather than another. These
expereriences are rather a part of why we view an object the way we view
the object. Remember that in order for there to be an act of choice
there must be a desire that preceeds the choice. Now if a person is
trying to rid himself of a bad habit the desire to rid himself is the
ultimate end in many choices to acheive that end. I am speaking now of
each body movement to acheive that end.
So if he desires to stop
smoking then that desire must be stronger than the desire to smoke or he
will always be led by the stronger desire so that he is responsible.
Remember that being inbetween smoking and not smoking as the paradigm of
free will, is not free will or liberty, that is no will at all- what is
liberty is when his desire to stop smoking is greater than his desire
to smoke if that is his goal. And we could say that he exercises his
freedom if he desires to smoke seeing that he had a free choice,
(choosing for himself). I do not doubt that there can be a conditioning
that happens as a result of accountablity. And that this can be a good
thing. But the truth is that when he smokes, his desire to smoke always
preceeded his choice and vice -versa. this is the exercise of free will.
If he has an accountability partner, then he desires to have an
accountability partner. And so the chain goes. Its not so much getting
the person to see his desire match his choice because choices evidence
his desires.
This is why the effects of sin goes much deeper than just outward behavior.
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8035
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Forums / Theology Forum / Which One Is The Gift?
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on: January 13, 2007, 05:51:17 AM
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A ) do what is impossible for a person to do and give faith in Himself to people?
Thanks , Soc, joker, and every one else. We are having some good discussions.
Faith
is not a faculty but it is an agency. I have stated that every one has
human faith, which is not saving faith, but it is still our faith. My
point is we and our faculties do not get anialated in order to become
christians. To not be
able to aprehend divine knowlege and want to obey that command is to be
in a state of darkness and rebellion. That is the reason we are not able
to use faith for divine things. If we have no desire for divine
knowlege we will not view in our minds the glory of Christ then we will
not trust in Him
alone. Unless we understand that He is worthy of our trust by a divine
knowlege then we will have no desire for Him and we will not have saving
faith.
Our will is involve in trusting Christ. We must submit
to Him in order to trust Him. Now there is a negative and positive
aspect here in the willing part in regeneration. Our will must not only
be new , but our old will must be destroyed. In regeneration God
destroys our old will and He gives us a new will, like a child, to obey
Him and to trust Him alone.\" No man can serve two masters.\" Hate- Love
gets turned upside down. In this sense faith is a gift, being our
faith.
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8036
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 11, 2007, 04:18:20 PM
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Thanks Joker this is an interesting discussion I think it's fair to say that \"the Will\" is the instantaneous sum of our desires and motivations.
Here
is a question i have. How can the cause( desires), be the same as the
effect (the choice)? If that were the case then the mind could be the
will or the understanding could be the will. How can you choose
something that you have no view of? Its like saying that the tree
created the tree. If the desires choose what they please then the actual
choice then there would be no actual movement of the body, because the
choice is the actual movement toward one object over another. (effect)
No matter how much you desire something it can never be the choice of
it. I can desire something that i will not necessarily choose.
What the mind does in assessing the object of choice is correlate it with its own existing desires.
Habits,
past experience are a part of why a person desires one thing over
another and are from the understanding. But still the person chooses
based apoun the strongest desire which is not necessarily rational. I
mean we do not always do the rite thing even tho we know it is the rite
thing to do. In the end, each individual choice comes down to what
pleases us the most at that moment ( The understanding could also be
effected by the nearness of the past experience either negative or
positive).
So when you hold someone accountable for their
choices, you are basically trying to condition them to associate the
choice with an existing desire. i.e. this choice brings pain (which you
desire to minimize), that choice brings pleasure (which you desire to
maximize), this other choice endangers self-preservation (which you
desire to avoid).
This is where i disagree with the
physicologist and philosophers. I do not think that conditioning gets to
the desires. The new desires must be through grace -beginning in grace
and ending in grace. The word is transformation not scientific method
of conditioning.
The desire preceed choice. You cannot choose to
desire, the will being the effect not the cause. I can argue my point if
you want here.
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8037
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Forums / Theology Forum / The Sin Of Sodom
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on: January 11, 2007, 03:45:35 PM
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But what are we doing obeying the Law??
Has it not been fufilled in Christ like He said.
I presume you do not lie cheat, steal, kill, commit adultery or worship an idol or the Devil...in order to win your salvation? But hopefully, you don't do all those sins, which if fact shows God your love and gratefulness for His love and forgiveness. After
we are saved, the Ten commandments are a ‘guide’ for us to live,
not a 'way' to be saved. Because it is not ‘a way’ to be saved does
not mean that we have no obligation to obey them or some how ‘can't'
obey them because sin is still too powerful. If we were truly saved then
God ‘gives’ us the power to obey along with 'faith' to believe...we
use our will to follow through with what God has given us....He won't
do it for us! If we don't ‘use’ our faith to ‘act’ then our
faith is in vain! Before Christ, believers were saved by their
‘faith' in YHWH and their obedience to His Word. They were forgiven
their willful sins by repentance and a contrite heart. Most Temple
sacrifices were for un-intentional sins and only the Day of Atonement
could cover all of Israel's willful or intentional sins...and then only
if Israel was truly contrite and repented! You couldn't kill or steal
and then go to the Temple and offer a sacrifice...there wasn't any
sacrifice for those things! If you were unrepentant...the sacrifices wouldn't count anyway! Jesus'
superior sacrifice covers all sins and is also based on faith, and
repentance. The Law was fulfilled by Jesus, in that, He died to forgive
our sins against God, and empower us to obey God (so we won't continue
to sin against God). Jesus is a perfect solution that restore man to
fellowship with a Holy God. Jesus, and what He does for us is
the ‘gift’. The ‘gift’ is a person, God Himself, not a
‘thing’, ‘concept’ or ‘doctrine’. I believe Paul is using the word ‘Grace’ in it's context as a metaphor for Jesus. Thor
Wasnt
it David who said, sacrifices and offerings you did not desire , but a
broken and contrite spirit because my ears You have peirced- (covenant).
David committed adultery and murder but keep the kingdom. He was fully
forgiven because of Gods gracious covenant with David. And when you get
to the NT in the book of Acts the testimony of David by the apostles was
that He was a man after Gods own heart. Not one mention of murder or
adultery. David recieved forgiveness not based apoun a sacrifice but out
of the unfailing love of God. In the OT when God passed before Moses,
He proclaimed Himself by saying that He was a forgiving God, full of
mercy, kindness, and compassion. David appealed to that God and He
understood who God was, Davids worship was greater, more intense , and
constant, because He understood that Gods love was endless . That is why
David choose to let God decide any penalty in its duration because He
knew that out of Gods unfailing love would be shorten discipline and
with less (if any) pain .
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8038
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Forums / Theology Forum / Which One Is The Gift?
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on: January 10, 2007, 03:09:25 PM
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"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. "...
What
i'm wondering is whether the "gift of God" of which Paul speaks is the
faith or the being saved from hell. I've heard both ideas taught. I'm
wondering what idea is better supported by the context and grammar.
The explanation from Robert Picirilli's Grace, Faith, and Free Will
is that "this" (Greek "touto") is in the neuter form. "Faith" (Greek
"pistis") is a feminine noun. If "this" referred back to "pistis", it
would be in the feminine form "haute". Therefore, "this", the gift of
God, refers back to entire preceding clause "By grace you have been
saved, through faith".
Hey Joker: Reading MBG's recent quote, he might agree that the word this does not refer to only one having been saved from hell, rather that the word refers to both faith and being saved from hell. However,
i'm thinking, from what you said in the quote above, that the gift is
not just faith and heaven. My opinion now is that grace is also
part of the gift. That is the gift is not just eternal life, nor just
faith, nor just undeserved love and mercy. The gift of God is one
package including all three and then some (such as righteousness, as
indicated in Romans 5). I guess the next question would be
this: "If faith is a gift from God, does that mean that it is caused by
Him alone, or by our own free will, or perhaps by both?" (I'm taking
the word faith to mean trust in Christ alone, in who He is and in what
He did, to save one from hell). What do you think? Also, are there any thoughts from anyone else?
Salvation
happens all at one time. \" this\" is all the parts of salvation that
are one. It is all of grace. There is no iland of human righteousness in
the paradigm of salvation. Nothing that belongs to man is in salvation.
It is all of God. There is no germ of human work. When we speak of
faith in Christ it is saving faith. There is no such thing as a human
work apart from pre- grace. So that pure grace preceeds sanctification
and each individual work. It is evangelical obedience.
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8039
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 10, 2007, 02:47:06 PM
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Actually, Biggie seems to be defining "Free Will" as the ability to
choose absent any motivation or predisposition to choose, or with equal
motivations and predispositions to choose. In which case, an electron
randomly jumping quantum states has "Free Will", but nothing else. A
curious definition. Yet in another conversation on the same subject, I
came away with the definition that the motivations and predispositions
are themselves "the Will". So I'm curious as to where this will go. Cold cereal with fruit this morning. Why did I do that?
I
think what you are saying is the gospel, on one level, is so simple a
child can understand it, but on another level it is so complex a
theologian can drown in it.
True, but understanding it and believing it and trusting it are different animals. Most atheists understand the kerygma, the basic facts of the gospel, but they neither believe it nor trust it.
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8040
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Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must
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on: January 10, 2007, 02:41:50 PM
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...Do you really believe that in order for the will to be free it must
be in a state of absolute equal librium i.e not crossing the line of
something or some one causing choice? I can explain further if you want.
Yes, please do explain further.
Looking
at this logically :A good example would be the being and non-being
paradigm. God has always existed, we exist because God exist. God is an
eternal being, and we are created beings. The cause of our existence is
because God brought us into being.
The same question comes about
free will. If my will was self determined then any pryor cause would
make it impossible for it to be self determined. In the created order
you have reasons to look for a cause since what is created explains to
some extent what the creator is like. The created order directs you to
the cause. Now you look at the choices a person makes over the period of
his life. And then you begin with the last choice he made before he
died. Then you follow the choices all the way back to the beginning
choice. Now if there was no other cause than the will or the choice then
in your paradigm the first choice would determine the second choice,
and so on. But my question is what determined the first choice?
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