"...I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and compassion on whom I have compassion..."
Exodus 33:19
Ultimately
it comes down to that quote of God when showing Moses His glory. I
actually love that quote because of its simplicity, yet its ultimate
authority, we have no recourse to that statement. It is a simple yet
ultimate truth that God will have mercy on those He has mercy and
compassion on those He has compassion.
Is it fair? Well not by
human standards, but again God can do it because He is God and is
ultimately right and just in all things He does.
Do I like it? Not necessarily, but I really don't have a say so and I’m okay with that.
"Well
what if God chooses not to have compassion on you", I have been asked.
"So be it", I say "but God also promises that those who trust in His
son Jesus would be saved; and I put my hope and trust in that"...
In
a way it is very liberating, it takes the burden of proof off of me,
all I have to do is trust and obey. Something I do thousands of times a
day without even thinking about it. So I say, let God have mercy on
those He will have mercy, I probably couldn't change His mind anyway...
So to bring it back to square one, perhaps we aren't as free as we think we are, but more liberated that we know....
Gods
sovereign election is beautiful all the way through. There is no need
to have a confusing thought about it. We are not standing outside
looking in. Since God is highest and most sublime then we can trust
that His love is beyond our ability to understand. So that His purpose
in election defines His personal attention that He gives us by that
love. So that we know if we have anything we need we can ask Him and He
hears us. If He could not purpose to save us out of nothing from
ourselves, then He could not handle all of the difficult situations, and
the most heinous of sins. The lower we have gone the greater is His
love by His sovereign election.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 19, 2008, 05:37:47 PM
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Man lost his moral ability in the fall. He had
a free will prior to the fall. Since he had the moral ability to keep
all the requirements of the law. But after the fall man was darkened in
his understanding and alienated from God. Man is unable to do good. Man
is dead in sins and trespasses. So that his will is in bondage to sin.
All of mens choices are evil because they are not done to glorify God.
Even the free choices, those everyday choices whether moral or practical
are from a self love rather than a love of God. Men choose what they
desire the most. Since men are dead, they cannot choose to love
God, unless they are made alive. Men must be regenerated in order to
choose good. Regeneration comes when the Spirit applies the word to a
mans heart and the man is made alive. He is given a new knowledge, that
light of the glorious gospel, the light of Jesus Christ. So that men
desire to choose good by the mind being most pleased with Christ. But
sometimes a man is exposed to the word of God and seems to be
regenerated, but he is only experiencing legal conviction. As time goes
on, it will become evident that the man does not choose out of a love
for Christ. But a love of himself and sin. The Spirit alone moves to
regenerate a man.
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Forums / Main Forum / Re: R.c. Sproul
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on: May 17, 2008, 08:09:42 AM
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Hmmmm....can
anyone point me to a verse which says we are "free" to sin?? Does Paul
in Romans 7 sound like he's "free" toadbat?? Paul certainly sounds like
he's struggling with ought..and should....was He wrong?? According to
what you're saying, Paul is sinning in the tyranny of Oughts and
shoulds!! : )) ALso, If you are as "free" to sin as you (and Steve
Brown) allege, why does Paul argue vs. this by telling us we ought not
sin more to let grace abound?? Your desire to sin does not please
God. Every non believer "freely" sins....since Christ did (and does)
not pay for their salvation nor redemption. A non believer is actually
"more free" in their sin, since their isn't any resistance at work to
keep them from it....but they cannot please God no matter how hard they
try....b/c....nobody who's "nature" hasn't been changed, would ever have
a "God" motivated desire to please God. The Christian is always at
"war" with sin.....If people actually spent more time reading, (and
believing) their Bible instead of cashing in on that offer of 3 free
sins.....we might just realize we actually hurt ourselves and others in
the wake of our "testing" the grace of God. There are always
consequences for living in the flesh without understanding the war with
flesh vs Spirit. Those born of the Spirit do change.....those whom God
has truly redeemed are in a process of sanctificaition which involves
them volitionally and in due time, does in fact create visible signs of
righteousness (Christ's, not our own) in our lives. Some live in a
daily wage of failure....keep fighting....welcome to the battlefield.
Life was much easier for me as a non believer.....so I will stick with,
our freedom to "obstain" from sin.....you know, the Biblical
theme....cuz sin always costs....righteousness for the Christian is
free!! : )) Toadbat, only God makes the final call whether
anyone actually has been "chosen" or not......I appreciate your thinking
that I had some type of "power" or"influence" over someone....but sorry
to disappoint you on that one....telling you all that you're going to
Hell b/c you don't agree with me, doesn't make it so, anymore than your
telling me that my desire to "not obey God" helps me understand how
"free" I really am! Sorry, but I already knew that before I became a
Christian!! Didn't you?? Anyway, Each Apostle designated themselves as
"bond slaves" to Christ!! A bond slave had no choices to "ponder" when
it came to whom they served. I don't see them saying what you're
saying....... "It was only after we discovered that we were really
free...to...not...obey...them - did we discover that we really wanted to
all along". hmmm  ? Everything
changes......just as it says in Scripture. We don't need to
intellectualize this. I am weary and leary of folks who play free and
loose with sin. Sinning comes naturally.....Righteousness comes
supernaturally......welcome to the war....stay and fight for a while
will ya?? Why continue on with the natural when the grace which saved
you empowers you to experience real change?? Sproul speaks about "hope"
in our struggle vs sin.....but all I see around here is freedom in
failure. I'll take Sproul over Brown and his encouraging others to test
the Grace of God by sin. Legalism causes people to
sin more. Grace causes people to sin less. If its of grace then it is no
more of works otherwise grace is not grace. You make it sound
like since you have the two cars in the garage, a rather affluent
lifestyle, and your physically healthy that it is because of your views
on cheap grace. Well, if we look closely at this particular thread, and i
do not know these men personally, but it would seem that God would be
disciplining Sproul more than Brown. And if Sproul were to come on this
forum , i think he would sound like most of us about the physical deli
ma. It really has nothing to do with grace. I dont agree with
all of what Steve says, nor of all of Sproul. But these men are on the
same theological road. They are not the cancer of the American religion.
Its the legalism. I really consider these men as stalwarts of the
faith. I only say this because of your seeming insensitivity to peoples
problems. And for all you legalist out there , this is my adult voice.
He He.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Systematic Theology Volume 1 - by Charles Hodge
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on: May 15, 2008, 05:16:38 PM
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Dogmatism
This
method is still in vogue. Men lay down certain principles, called
axioms, or first truths of reason, and from them deduce the doctrines of
religion by a course of argument as rigid and remorseless as that of
Euclid. This is sometimes done to the entire overthrow of the doctrines
of the Bible, and of the most intimate moral convictions not only of
Christians but of the mass of mankind.
Transcendentalists admit
of no authoritative revelation other than that which is found in man and
in the historical development of the race. All truth is to be
discovered and established by a process of thought. If it be conceded
that the Bible contains truth, it is only so far as it coincides with
the teachings of philosophy.
These two views are prevalent in our society. Ill explain later.
I was gonna ask about the transcendentalists. Why the name if theyre just naturalists? What transcends then?
Without knowing his explanation, i think it is men who are educated in philosophy who also have religious leanings. And
then the dogmatist are the philosophers who have terms that are used to
define their view of the truth in a systematic way that is rigid. They
would cut across the grain of the truth of scripture. But we
have become sophisticated even in the so called american church that the
historical beliefs about Christ are also being redefined by these two
paradigms.
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6366
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Once Saved Always Saved -
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on: May 15, 2008, 04:00:20 PM
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Are you sure it isn't about both?
Good to see we have another "archaeologist" posting here at KLF - this is a good one! w8okn, if I may take the liberty of answering that question, It had better not
be both! If the years I have been attempting to do this "Christian
thing" have taught me anything it is this: The instant I attempt to mix
any of that which I call "myself" with Christ's inner working in me, I
am making a B-line for disaster! This especially goes for my most noble intentions; those are the ones that are always
tripping me up! Christ works very patiently in me to try and build up a
foundation of trust in Him and then whenever I decide that this needs
some "response" from me apart from just allowing Him to dwell in me and
through me, that's when I, with my good intentions, send the foundation
crashing down to the ground and He has to start all-over again. This
is an on-going process with me; it seems I am always allowing fear to
tell me "You aren't doing enough!" when Christ is whispering gently from
the opposite direction: "It's already been done!" I lose sight of that often. And I always end-up paying the price.
Shalom, toadbat. I
tend to agree with you (despite all the talk on love) when it comes to
faith vs. works. Consider Paul's words in his letter to the Galatians: Gal 3:1-14
1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey
the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth,
crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles
among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of
faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen
through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee
shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it
is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which
are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse
for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus
Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJVGod's love is not on a performance basis! ... And, aren't we GLAD! Retrobyter
Shalom, Retrobyter And
I agree. That one line from Galatians (v.3) is one that needs to be
repeated often as it is near-impossible to take it out of context. There
are those who are so suspicious of "cheap grace" being taught and
preached that they often accuse those preaching on straight grace of
doing just that. Any cusory reading of the text will tell anyone that
the burden of proof rests squarely on their own shoulders however. (Like
Steve Brown said: "Of course it's cheap; if it weren't, I wouldn't be
able to afford it!"). I cannot believe that the same grace that
transfomed me from a spiritual corpse into a living, dynamic spiritual
being, would call me to life just to return me to the status-quo. If
grace enables, then it enables the will; if it enables the will it
stimulates the desire. It all comes full-circle to bring one to the
point of realization I no longer have to keep the rules because now,
being in love, I want to keep them - and only so I can draw even nearer
to my beloved. That is the sum-total of it.
TB Just wanted to say that it is good to read your post. They are rite on!
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Forums / Break Room / Re: Random Thoughts
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on: May 14, 2008, 07:45:58 PM
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Do unto others as you would have them to you.
Now that is only possible for a believer. But there are self righteous
people who put this as the moral principle of everyone. And yet this
principle is taught by Christ Himself in the sermon on the mount. This
can only be accomplished by believers since we have the life of Christ
living in us. The only reaction that you get from an unsaved person is
that he will weigh how much a person does to him and then he will
respond the like. That is his reading on this principle. He does not
understand that we give without expecting anything in return. Christ was
giving us the direction of all of our relationships in this principle.
Since He owns everything, then we have nothing. And we give because He
has made it the way to give Him glory. So when we give from a heart that
is trusting in Him, we will have His pleasure more than if we were
miserly. That is why when He said that a man must deny Himself, He was
giving this principle as a response from a heart that was fully
convinced of Christ giving them the ability to accomplish giving in this
way. Our inner life is more important than our wallets. When He says to
give even if it hurts then we obey, since He owns it all and He is our
master. We not only give of our money but we give ourselves in
ministering to others. So that it looks foolish to the world that we
spend so much time doing to others what we would have them do to us. It
really is about self denial.
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Forums / Break Room / Re: Random Thoughts
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on: May 10, 2008, 01:19:50 PM
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Yeah I am a saint saved by grace..
I really need to surrender this. I'm been fighting it for a while now. It caused me to drift.
*SIGH.. I'm sad. I know what i need to do...
Ok,
surrendering is finding all we need in Him, not in relieving something.
I tell you this after living on this earth for 50 yrs. Most men are
religious. They are willing to do what the fraternity requires. And they
jump through all of these hoops and feel so good about their efforts.
The problem with men is that they dont want to be cut at their pride in
their actions. Ive found that you just cant trust most men because they
are always interested in having a part in being forgiven, or in meeting
the requirements. So that after they have done the program, they still
have not done a thing to their view of themselves. They even have more
pride in themselves by their religious acts. Men love to have a conflict
with what they know is rite and what they cannot do. They spend most of
their days going in and out of doing something and feeling guilty.
There is no depth to their love for Christ, but the love to be grouped
in the middle of the road fraternity. They tell you, its not about
feeling, just obedience, and so they are always feeling guilty and using
their religious standing or their community position to balance that
out. They love to get the approval of men over the spiritual working
done as a result of the work of Christ. Thats because men do not like to
feel absolutely helpless to do anything with their sin. And so the
majority of men live in religion. Yes we have such high
standards. We have such moral character. And yet its all just a bunch of
filthy rags before God. They would take the credit for avoiding sin,
but then they would think that others dont have the strength over sin
like they have. They have too much pride to think that Gods requirements
are absolute righteousness not just avoiding but in doing. They would
not consider that God has given them the grace to have a heart of love
to God. No they want the approval of men. Of the group. Thats why the
cross is so offensive to them. Their love is in the command and not in
the Person. They havent considered the kind of deliverance that is
required. See the problem with sin is not the level of depravity, but
its in the pride of men. Thats why men have more to talk about
in something they have, or something they have acheived or some person
that they follow, or a seminar that change their lives , all as if it
were something unselfish that they have done. They love to be bitter
that others are not obeying and willing to go to all means to avoid
them, but they never really love Christ out of that resting in all of
His work. Thats why they really cannot extol Christ as if He were the
only person in their lives. Because they love their religion and
fraternity more than they love Christ.
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Forums / Break Room / Re: Random Thoughts
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on: May 10, 2008, 12:07:47 PM
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Thanks toadbat for the advice,
The
thing is, I know what's distracting me.. I know it but I'm avoiding to
think about it 'cause then I don't have to bring it to the Lord to
examine me...I know what it is...and I'm sinning. Toadbat, ever have
this: you want to and NEED to let go but you don't want to? It's not
like you can't....you just don't want to...because you don't want to
lose it..?
I think I just answered my own question... by me
saying and acknowledging this, I have declared that I'm scared to let go
because I am doubting that God knows what's best. It's that or He's
telling me to surrender, wait, and leave all the technicalities of when
and HOW to Him...'cause really, I , don't know and it's really
really not wise for me to manipulate circumstances, that'll only get me
in trouble if it wasn't His will in the first place...
My flesh is warring against what the Holy Spirit is convicting me of. I think I know what I need to do...
We
as believers are never without hope, nor are we ever able to do what we
want to do. So that when we talk about struggling with sin, we discuss
this with an all wise God. We are never under condemnation or are we
under the law as our school master. God brings us through trials for the
purpose of declaring that in spite of our stumbling around He has His
purposes in using our weakness and sin in the working out of His will.
We are alway forgiven before we commit the sin over again and we are
always accepted with that sin. If we condemn ourselves then we are not
fully aware of His work in our personal sin to cover the full effects of
its grief in us. The only problem we have with the reality in our
struggle is that we have not fully brought it to a forgiving God who has
done the work and said it is finished. So that His call in us is within
the paradigm that we will never get to a place were we feel as if we do
not struggle with sin or we do not have the potential of falling into
the same sin that we repented . Our relational circumstances are taken
care of in the cross, so that we can claim the victory over our attitude
and the other persons reaction to our sin, as if we are free from the
obligations of others reactions. We are in a state of no condemnation. He
will kill the sin in us by His grace alone, through the work of Christ
alone, and in the hope and glory of His willing it to be so through us.
Any other determination of our part is a lack of faith to believe His
purposes. We come to God as thinking that we are strong, but He knows we
are weak, we come to Him thinking that we are able, but He knows that
we are unable, we come to Him thinking that we can some how gain His
acceptance by some work we do, but He knows that Christ work was all
that was required for our being accepted. Our problem is not that we
struggle with sin, but we do not understand the terrible predicament
that we are in as sinners, that weight of grief that we carry as a
result of sinning, and the incomprehensibly mercy of His forgiveness and
always abiding love. We are always having a joy that is unspeakable
mixed with a grief that is pulling us down. Its not our confession or
the working out of our confessing, or the righteous things we do, but
its in Christ alone. Always look to Him to give you the proper
understanding of these things, since He leads by loving us , and
sometimes we do not feel loved enough to get out of this satanic grip of
guilt. So we need to be loved or we will fall rite back into that
emotional grip of guilt after satisfying the self atonement.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: May 09, 2008, 08:33:11 PM
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As you know i am a dicotomist. We are spirit
and body. We are spirit and we are body. But then there is a reality
that is deep , or deeper than the normal. Its not abnormal but it is an
understanding of the nature of desire , having a spiritual sense, but
yet having much darkness as to its deepness. So when we experience that
spiritual illumination, we actually have an awareness of our spiritual
senses. So that we see things as different than they appear with our
natural physical eyes. As we see these spiritual things, we develop a
certain understanding of the nature of the spiritual, so here is that
communication of the Spirit in the person to person paradigm. Our
spiritual dwelling is a fellowship with the Spirit on in the strength of
that connection. The deepness is that illumination of light that goes
through the darkness of the depth of our spirits. We feel the desire out
of that deepness. So that the desire deepens as we gain that spiritual
understanding. Which has an effect on our need to have a physical sense
of the strength of attraction. Since the deepness of our spirits brings
about longings and desires that cannot be satisfied. But these spiritual
longings are so interrelated with the Spirits communications that we
see the reality of His personage going through us. We understand that
nature. So in this sense i believe that we rise above the
experience of the captive nature of sin. But we still sin, and yet our
real non corporal experience of these spiritual communications of what
we see and hear and feel, have a greater effect on our understanding
since the nature of the Spirits communication to our understanding has
brought about the nature of an understanding of that depth of that
spiritual communication. Our longings can become so real, that we lose a
certain sense of the physical universe.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Romans and the Flesh Monster.
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on: May 09, 2008, 05:00:53 PM
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Having passion is being acted upon were action
is acting upon the object. These two things have different relations
but they can be simultaneous in the same act of the will. The will
cannot act upon itself. Just as we were created, our subsistence of
being is determined by a power that is keeping us alive. We are acted
upon in order to exist. And yet we exist in a subsistent way by actions
in the physical parts of our bodies. So that we can say that existence
of an action is determined by something acting upon us in desire or
passion.
We are sinners because we are corrupted in every part of who
we are in body and soul. And we carry around this body of death as if
it were a person who acts within us. So that we are toxic from the
inside, before we choose to sin. Sin acts upon us in the choice to sin.
And if we have that passion from birth then we experience this toxic
reality until we die. This is the reality of being in relation to others
and their choices.
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And in this sense we can
experience a kind of separation of our spirits rising in our bodies.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: I love my church - is this OK?
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on: May 05, 2008, 04:26:09 PM
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I
don't recall saying I was dependent on others. I think you are
referring to a previous post when I had said that we need each other.
Now that wasn't to say that our focus should be on each other. Nope. We
are to encourage one another, yes. We are to bear each others' burdens,
yes. But we ourselves cannot provide for others what only God reserved
for Himself.
No i was referring to your need of a ride in a car to church. I recall you saying that you were not allowed to go to church.
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6407
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: I love my church - is this OK?
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on: May 04, 2008, 08:28:42 PM
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I don't cuz I can't go to church, is that okay for me?
I
know youve said its impossible since you are dependent on others. We
are always in danger of focusing on the minors and forgetting the real
reasons for our being in this new life. And really the church is His
church not ours. So that we are dependent to hear from Him on how we are
to live with one another in the local church and universal church. So
that in this sense it is wrong to think of a church is a denomination or
a building or a social setting. The church is the only spiritual
building on the earth. It exist by that kind of production. See we all
are gifted to minister to one another, by being humbled enough to see
that we are so dependent upon His power in working in order for us to do
this impossible task. No where can you get a job that does not require
any experience or physical beauty. But it requires the lowest in that
spiritual building to be exalted and the rich to be humbled. For he
commands by His rule in this spiritual body for the rich not to be
proud. No where is it required that the leaders authority is only as
they show submission to the rule of Christ. That they have more respect
for Christ than they do the position. So that this is a reality that is
not really a physical set of absolutes in order for us to function.
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6408
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Forums / Theology Forum / When God hides His face
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on: May 04, 2008, 08:15:09 PM
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We are not always promised to be going before
Him and receiving these communications that help us rest in Him. There
are times when we wonder were God is. Our feelings are always going to
be up and down. When we go to Him in prayer we receive an immediate
communication of His peace of forgiveness, or His assurance of being our
present help in time of trouble. We live in the light of having
confidence from one day to another. We have a confidence that He will
hear us, and He will answer in the future. This confidence is a
communication of Himself to us, as having Him near in His special
presence to keep us from all of the emotional dispositions of fallen and
corrupted realities that keep us from the pleasure of enjoying Him.
Because we enjoy Him we glorify Him. He causes us to not experience the
pull of the accusations of the Devil through our sin and through our
being hard by having a heart that is overcoming the suffering from our
anxieties.He shields us from all of the circumstances that are pressing
in upon us , because of our failures and our falleness. The shielding is
not from taking them out of our circumstances , but surrounding us with
a supernatural confidence by hearing from Him that He will deliver us
in His time. This is what we experience as a result of being surrounded
by His love so that nothing can separate us from His love. We do not
hope that nothing can separate us, but we experience Him loving us first
so that we are confident that nothing can separate us from His love.
We
are unable to achieve this peace on our own. If we compare this
communication of our Fathers love by comparing it with not having any
problems in our lives, then we have never experience His powerful
shielding. He shields us when the circumstances are pressing in upon us.
We know that these circumstances are there, and we know that we could
feel very insecure by them, but we have more confidence by them being
there in lite of Him being greater. That is His keeping power is a grace
that we experience from all of these different problems that come from
these different carnal paradigms. So that we know Him as our deliver by
our circumstances being unmanageable. We know this because He speaks to
us that He is our deliver alone. He alone speaks to us that He is our
Saviour. This is the paradigm of knowing that God in His grace is
upholding us by His strong communications though the witness of His
Spirit. We are in the frame of praising Him by His causing us to
overcome our circumstances by His immanent pleasure. We are in the frame
of trusting Him over the potential of being cast under the terrible
paradigms of doubt and fear. This is when God favors us, we feel in a
sense invincible by His causing us to triumph in all of our inward
dispositions. His favor is that we know ourselves to be pleased with
praising and adoring Him.
But then He hides His face. We have
these distinctly different communications by having this trial. Some of
us have never experienced His favor to such an extent, so that we are
not aware that He is hiding. But we are cast down and caused to walk in
the dryness of our experiencing Him being distant. Our desires for Him
are more fixed on wanting His favor by Him bringing that invincible
assurance. We want Him to be speaking salvation to us, and assuring us
that by His salvation we are no longer cast down. We want to know that
the joy will come in the morning, and have it be there to meet us. We
want to experience His favor so that we are not cast down under the
weight of our sins. We want Him to be merciful to us by us experiencing
His grace to come to our rescue when we have cause much pain, and know
His love was always there to deliver us, seeing that we were confident
that He will speak salvation to us in that day of potential trouble. We
want to be able to live in the light of His countenance shining down
from heaven from between His throne so that we experience a supernatural
power of witness. But these paradigms become a faint reality when He
test us by hiding His face.
We feel the threats of the wicked,
and we experience the judgment of the self righteous. We are cast into a
kind of wandering , crying out to Him to return with His favor. At
times we feel as if we cannot go on. We are dismayed. We are in the
darkness of not knowing which way to go. We begin to over focus on
obedience because we are afraid that we need to do something to have Him
smile on us with the favor we had before. We start thinking that the
faith of assurance is only experienced by our outward obedience. We
console ourselves by our outward conformity, because we know that
something is not rite, we do not have the same love for our first love.
We begin to worry more than we ever worried before that we are not
saved. We are encouraged to condemn ourselves by a wrong application of
the law on our consciences. We think that God is doing this to us and we
blame God for our lack of joy. But we are spiraling down by this
predicament.
We must see that God has our good even tho He has
hidden Himself. Faith is not having an assurance by our outward
conformity, but it is believing that God is hiding HImself for our good
so that we will exercise faith without having His favor always. Faith
is walking in the desert and knowing that God is communicating to us by
our lack. Faith is believing that God is using us by our weak trust, so
that He alone will get the glory even when we do not trust Him. Faith is
believing that in this paradigm that God will reward to us all of the
times we suffered through these times by indirectly supplying the
resources by our lack of doing what is required. These times when God
hides His face, is times where we know that He is testing us by it, and
not believe that He has cast us off. We are oh so desperate for Him , we
are crying to HIm out of our poverty, and waiting in poverty.
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6412
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The time to mourn
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on: May 03, 2008, 12:21:43 PM
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The Holy Spirit
doesn't get to us like that. First He will convict us and make us aware
specifically the sin and he is going to woo us before God, so that we
can get right.
I agree, and we mourn in the state of
grace. Since we must learn that Gods conviction is not equal or better
than our ability to change in order to change. But we have a longing
grace, because of His victory over sin, now we can be saved from the
temptation of sin by His work on our behalf. So that we can enjoy God by
longing for Him over feeling the conviction of the Holy Ghost by sin.
God is not a resistant insurance salesman. He doesnt convict us enough
for us to feel the pain to change. But He examines our hearts as us
being in a spiritual operation room. His instruments are the word and
the Spirit only. He does not have a hammer or a physical set of
instruments but rather He determines what we are on the unseen
paradigms.
So now we can enjoy God in spite of us being totally
depraved. When we are learning by grace then our desires for God
outweigh His demands for obedience of us. Since we learn to long for
deliverance, then we will not be so confident in our demanding of
others. That would be self righteous resistant theology.
As i
have been talking about the state of mourning, that is , really a sense
that we could face temptation , very strong ones, even if we are used to
being protected. The biggest protection from outward temptations is
being locked up in a room without these temptations. But then we find
out that we are locked up in the temptations of our minds by it. So that
we logically know that what we think in our minds is the avenue for
temptation. So we have this life of its own so to speak. And in a sense ,
we live in this world and we face evil at every turn, that is
temptation of others who are in the bondage to sin by it. So it really
is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but its what comes out of
his heart. There is deep sin, and real depravity in all of us. So
mourning over sin is, dealing with sin before it becomes a strong
temptation by our pride in our ability to keep from it by avoiding
certain things.
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6413
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: The time to mourn
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on: May 03, 2008, 11:57:54 AM
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yeah,
God does put burdens in our hearts. He brings adversity and we won't
understand why this type. It's important we respond correctly. By
getting on our knees before Him and spilling your heart before Him and
letting Him take control.
I believe God uses our burdened hearts
in prayer-mode as a platform to get His Will done in our lives. Whether
it be dealing with something that doesn't belong in our hearts or
whatever it is He needs to accomplish.
He uses our mourning hearts in submission before Him for a purpose.
Are
you really 20 yrs old? I ve been reading your post of late and either
you are gifted or your not revealing everything about your maturity. I
agree, and yet we are always mourning over our sin. But then its not
because there is a goal to be obtained by our own programed state of our
own hearts determination. Rather it is by Him being our advocate and
deliverer that we face ourselves squarely. And yet, we have such a
problem with our view of ourselves that we always come out better than
we are in our examination, and better than others in our view of our
particular surroundings. There is even a division in these nt
letters that is more three dimensional than just the indicative and the
commands. But the law was divided into these distinct workings as God
showing us His holiness. And yet there is more than just how we relate
to God and how we relate to others. Since Christ has come and done the
work, now there is a little different focus in these tensions. Because
in the ot they were looking forward so that even tho they had the
covenant in the blood sacrifices for sins, yet they were still going
through the rituals. So that there was plenty of work in taking up their
time that was more physical in nature than we are in our working it out
today. This new way is repentance by turning to Christ completed work.
Now there is more direct availabilities to all of these kingdom
realities. And there is a more unableness in personal exalting than it
was in the ot. Since these things are given more and we receive more
there is more requirement for us to see these paradigms in the glory of
Christ in the knowledge of Him and the immediate deliverance that is
available by these powerful actings on us through the power of the
resurrection and having Christ as our mediator. There is a
division between the doctrine , the way man relates to others, and the
focus on the general disposition of the saints in all of this. We are
looking back at this by focusing on Christ work on our behalf. So that
we cannot have a biblical view of Gods revelation of Himself through the
law,and not see that there is no focus on the moral capability of man
by it. Since we are more tempted to take the glory of Christ for
ourselves than those who were under the burden of the ritual laws. We
are only rite by displaying a personal disposition of praise and
thankfulness, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs as a melody
in our hearts toward Christ. So that these relational dealings toward
our brothers will be out of the spiritual oneness we share as being
obedient to Christ for praising Him for the ongoing state of grace that
we experience over those who had to go through the rituals.
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6415
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Anger?
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on: May 02, 2008, 04:18:59 PM
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As i recall He told Peter as a matter of fact that Peter was to fall and after He had returned He told Peter to feed the sheep.
If
God gets angry any time we sin then each sin that we commit was not
fully satisfied in Christ. And if there is a way for Him to be angry at
us when we sin, then Christ work is of no effect. Since we are in a
state of no condemnation, then Christ has taken care of not only the
sin, but the state of condemnation and the wrath of God. So that if
Christ has taken care of sin, then He has taken care of how Gods
attitude toward sinners is.
Gods discipline is from love and not
from anger. Since God not only delivers us from trouble , but He
upholds us while we are struggling in our discipline. God determines the
time of our testing and He determines the amount of testing. So that
when we are buffeted on every side, then He is fully able to under gird
us so that we will not apostatize. Otherwise hope is not hope and faith
is not faith. So when we are failing God is faithful. When we are
straying God is always loving us back. And God determines to love us to
the end for the purpose of strengthening our faith.
When we are
sinning, we are being accused by the adversary and those who are used by
Satan do destroy our faith. Even our neighbors are avoiding us. But God
does not treat us in that accusatory way. Rather God knows the desires
of our hearts, He knows that we are but dust. And He does not treat us
as our sins deserve. So that when we are in a position of being rejected
by men, is when we are being upheld and accepted by God the most. It is
when we are being tested in this way that we learn about Christ work on
our behalf that strengthens our faith. This is done so that we will
give God the glory by being the only hope of our salvation when all men
reject us. It is because we fail that we are upheld. It is because we
sin that we receive grace. It is because we are accused by men , that we
experience the only refuge we can trust. When God works to bring us to
the end of our own way, and the expectation of men, is when we
experience His acceptance and love at its deepest point. God cannot fail
in His purpose to uphold us and love us and keep us. We cannot
experience two different kinds of paradigms at the same time and know
that it is a real purpose. If God determines to love us then He has
taken care of His anger towards us and our sin. Otherwise he would be no
different than you. If you stand in the accusatory position to a
believer that is struggling then you are no different than a friend of
the devil!
If you believe in sovereign grace, then you cant possibly accept any other teaching.
I
noticed you avoided the case of Moses, the "spit verse" in Revelation,
and in the example of Peter you did nothing to defend your view. Martin
Luther said it nicely that we are both saint and sinner. You will not
be "perfect" this side of eternity and there is pleanty of sin to send
the entire world to hell within each of us. I will state it ONCE again I am talking of our TEMPORAL NOT ETERNAL STATE.
I
havent met anyone who is reformed worth his salt that makes doctrine
from a narrative. So i feel pretty comfortable in standing on what i
have said.
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6416
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Anger?
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on: May 02, 2008, 08:46:49 AM
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As i recall He told Peter as a matter of fact that Peter was to fall and after He had returned He told Peter to feed the sheep.
If
God gets angry any time we sin then each sin that we commit was not
fully satisfied in Christ. And if there is a way for Him to be angry at
us when we sin, then Christ work is of no effect. Since we are in a
state of no condemnation, then Christ has taken care of not only the
sin, but the state of condemnation and the wrath of God. So that if
Christ has taken care of sin, then He has taken care of how Gods
attitude toward sinners is.
Gods discipline is from love and not
from anger. Since God not only delivers us from trouble , but He
upholds us while we are struggling in our discipline. God determines the
time of our testing and He determines the amount of testing. So that
when we are buffeted on every side, then He is fully able to under gird
us so that we will not apostatize. Otherwise hope is not hope and faith
is not faith. So when we are failing God is faithful. When we are
straying God is always loving us back. And God determines to love us to
the end for the purpose of strengthening our faith.
When we are
sinning, we are being accused by the adversary and those who are used by
Satan do destroy our faith. Even our neighbors are avoiding us. But God
does not treat us in that accusatory way. Rather God knows the desires
of our hearts, He knows that we are but dust. And He does not treat us
as our sins deserve. So that when we are in a position of being rejected
by men, is when we are being upheld and accepted by God the most. It is
when we are being tested in this way that we learn about Christ work on
our behalf that strengthens our faith. This is done so that we will
give God the glory by being the only hope of our salvation when all men
reject us. It is because we fail that we are upheld. It is because we
sin that we receive grace. It is because we are accused by men , that we
experience the only refuge we can trust. When God works to bring us to
the end of our own way, and the expectation of men, is when we
experience His acceptance and love at its deepest point. God cannot fail
in His purpose to uphold us and love us and keep us. We cannot
experience two different kinds of paradigms at the same time and know
that it is a real purpose. If God determines to love us then He has
taken care of His anger towards us and our sin. Otherwise he would be no
different than you. If you stand in the accusatory position to a
believer that is struggling then you are no different than a friend of
the devil!
If you believe in sovereign grace, then you cant possibly accept any other teaching.
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6417
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Anger?
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on: May 01, 2008, 09:51:19 PM
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1 Thessalonians 5
9. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 1
10. and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
Romans 5
9. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
John 3
36.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Romans 3
25.
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through
faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the
forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Love each and every verse you cited.  You seem to think the wrath of God totally equates to the temporal plane we live in now. So why not explain the 2 examples I placed at your plate? Here is one again... 14And
the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not
Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also,
behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be
glad in his heart. and skipping to vers 24..... 24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
If i am not mistaken this was over the circumcision issue. There are a lot of questions here. You keep giving me a narrative. You wont answer me as to what is the sin that makes the Lord get angry? So i am just taking it that you dont have an answer. You
dont have a NT teaching on your assertion. Lukewarm is a pagan
disposition found in christians in different periods of their lives.
The believer who continues in lukewarmness is dealt with through grace.
The unbeliever is receiving the wrath of God. Gen 6: 3. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=11501221032
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever,
because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and
twenty years." The Spirits striving is different in an unbeliever
from a believer. I have already explained the believers experiential
problems of being lukewarm in another thread, and its the opposite of
what you are asserting.
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6418
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Are we in the End Times?
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on: May 01, 2008, 08:44:24 AM
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In each of the past eight yeas, more Americans have declared personal bankruptcy than graduated from college.
92 percent of bankruptcies are filed by middle-class Americans.
The typical US household has $38,000 in [non-mortgage] debt and the total consumer debt has almost tripled since 1980.
Credit card debt alone, at $880 billion, is now triple what it was in 1988, after adjusting for inflation.
The average American student leaves a four-year college with over $20,000 in deucation debt; a graduate degree means $45,000.
The average American possesses 6.5 credit cards, for a nationwide total of 1.2 billion.
(And the more cards we have, the more we're likely to be offered.)
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6419
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Anger?
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on: April 30, 2008, 09:41:25 PM
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1 Thessalonians 5
9. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 1
10. and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
Romans 5
9. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
John 3
36.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Romans 3
25.
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through
faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the
forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
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6420
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Anger?
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on: April 30, 2008, 01:05:58 PM
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Hi Earl,
Can
you give us an example of God being angry and expressing it in your
life? Did you experience separation from His gracious work?
When
He chastizes me there can be an element of anger because of my sin. No
doubt chastizement is done in love but it does not mean He was not mad
at me for sinning. I gave specific example of people in the bible that
said God was angry towards, and yet they were His. Now are you saying God is never angry with you when you sin?
Sir , if you can explain to me, "what sin does God get angry at?" He
also appeared to Moses in the burning bush. It doesnt mean He will do
the same for me. I havent seen God like Moses. If you cannot bring up a
doctrinal explanation from scripture then you are incorrect. Rom 8: 31. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32.
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all,
how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33. Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; 34.
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes,
rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also
intercedes for us. 35. Who will separate us from the love of
Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or
nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." 37. But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38.
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39.
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to
separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." Here
is the old testament version of Gods love in salvation. Here is the
remnant in captivity, and yet they are dearly loved, but because of the
National rebellion they are getting caught in the punishment. And its
the same with Israel under Moses. The remnant was in a covenant
relationship, they were not perfect, but justified by Christ future
work on the cross. They were the objects of Gods love. The rest of
Israel received His just anger.
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