The idea of self is from God who has the only
self reflection that is absolutely truthful and complete. It is so
complete that He can recreate that image out of that perfect
understanding of Himself. Christ is the exact image of God. And we are
created with that kind of self reflection. But our self reflection is
tainted at all times. And this ability is only from our creation as
human beings. We are self conscious. So we are aware of this as the
defined definition of every idea in relation to propositional truth. We
see the truth as we see it through our understanding of what our view of
the world is. We see it through the eyes of self reflection. Thats why
it is so difficult for us to apply the truth so that it means more than
life itself. We must take the truth and bring it to bear on our self
image. The word is the mirror of our inner man. When we look into
the word we get a true reflection of what the true image of God is like
by the our new identity in Christ. But this reflection is not just a
view of the new image, but it is an effervescent knowledge of the glory
of Christ. The word is the pure effervescence but we are not able to see
it but faintly. So that our understanding is tainted with more than
just a kind of smoky glass but we are tainted with love for those images
we should not love and hate for those glorious things we should embrace
and rejoice in. We are corrupted by our loves and hates. So that our
reflection of who we are by the mirror of the word of God is terribly
frustrating. All of the deception and the misunderstanding of these
inordinate affections are erased when grace is present. But we do not
always have an understanding of that application in our self awareness. If
we could get to a place where we were able to be honest before God as
being acceptable by Christ, having the assurance of His grace on our
behalf, then we would learn to have more love for those things that He
is pleased with. This is the application of the truth to our souls that
is terribly important. First because we are only convinced of the power
of forgiveness when we see the reflection of our Fathers love in the
glory of Christ. Most if not all of our inner man struggles are related
to our understanding of the view of Christ as He is the image of God ,
as sent from the Father, and having the two natures, being convinced of
the power of God in that advocacy. If we have seen Him then we have seen
the Father. The growth in these things is determined by the application
of the promises and the loves we gain in our inner man as a result of
the Spirits work in us by that word. The problems we have about the
confusion that we are confronted with is in these affections and
rejections. We must have the light of the knowledge of God shine
in our hearts so that we will have our understanding enlightened . Then
we will know of the love of God and we will have an assurance of His
forgiveness. But we must hate evil as well. When we have an allegiance
to some image other than Christ then we are going to struggle with inner
turmoil. Thats why preaching to ourselves the word is so important for
our peace. We must cast down imaginations and every thought that exalts
itself against the knowledge of God and we must have our allegiance to
His image only. It is not necessarily the sin that blinds us to that
understanding, but it is the lack of understanding we have of the
advocacy made available by His completed work. Thats why the apostle
prayed to have the eyes of our understanding opened. So that we receive
the effervescent knowledge of the glory of Christ in order for us to
have a proper allegiance by that understanding through the work of the
Spirit in the word of God in order for us to have a disposition of
rejoicing with joy unspeakable and full of glory by that work in us.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 25, 2008, 09:09:32 AM
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As
I understand it, before the fall, our parents had the power to choose
whether or not they were going to sin (i.e. jump). After they made that
choice (for themselves and all of us), they no longer had any more
choice about whether they were (ultimately) going to sin or not; God had
to start making provisions right then and there so that their
inclination to sin did not ultimately take them away from Him. While
they (and we) still had (and have) free will, that free will in not autonomous;
it cannot operate independently from the dictates of our sin nature.
The whole argument (and I recall we covered this one in another thread)
is what impelled our parents to make that choice (i.e. jump) in the
first place. The conclusion I came to was that at that moment, though
they still had unimpaired free will, to partake of the fruit appeared
as a greater good then obeying the command - yet they still had the
power to come back from that line before they crossed it. However, cross
it they did (and the rest is our sad, sorry, horrifying history). I
guess the lesson we can take away from this is that whatever else, a
will unimpaired by sin does not categorically mean one that cannot be deceived. To believe otherwise, would mean having to believe that sin existed in our parents before it existed, and that, of course, is a logical absurdity.
If the will is only influenced by sin then it is not the cause of sin
and we could conclude that we are sinners because we are free to choose
between good and evil. If the sin did not infect the cause of our
choosing then it would be an influence. But we are corrupted in every
part. And the responsible view of this is getting to the cause. If we
were in an equilibrium state, so that we were only influenced in our
freedom, the will being passive. Then the will is no will at all. For to
will is to choose one thing over another. But the action of all of our
corrupted faculties is from a sinful mind and understanding as the cause
of all of our choices. If we are in an equilibrium state then
there is no will at all since there is no real choice. So that the
object of our choice has all of the power to cause us to choose that
object. This is the definition of pragmatism. For to have a necessity to
choose evil is not taking responsiblity for our choice away, but it is
making us responsible, since the nature of the choice is in the nature
of the cause. If there is no corruption in the faculties prior to the
involvement of the will, then there is no real punishment for the choice
since there is no real choice for the evil. And the object would then
have all the power. We know that the object does not have the power to
make us choose evil because Adam and Eve were surrounded by a multitude
of beautiful objects pre sin and we are not as beautiful post sin, so
that we could conclude by the equilibrium state of things that they were
worse off that we are post sin.
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6324
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 24, 2008, 10:55:16 AM
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You
might argue that this is a simplistic way of looking at the subject,
but if you consider a person who (for one reason or another) has just
commited themselves to an irrevocable course of action (such as jumping
of a cliff) and now has no choice but to reap the consequences of the
action (i.e. a smashed-up body). You could say that up to that point,
they had the perfect free will to make either decision A (Jump). Or
decision B (Don't Jump). After he went and made decision A, he still
has free will (sailing towards the ground at 32 feet per second doesn't
change that), it's just that his free will doesn't do him a bit of good
anymore; his choices have all been taken away and now he must go with
what the inexorable force of gravity now dictates he must do - yet he
still is a free-willed agent!"
I rather feign that that is what our parents in the garden did for us. We still have the power to choose;
the inexorable course they put us on when we were still "in Adam" made
all of our choices to no effect; whatever we choose (in the natural)
will always be under the dictates of sin (no matter what those choices
look like from the outside). It takes a "Superman" if you will, to spot
the man sailing through the air and rescue him from his decision.
Of
course, since as believers, we still sin, you would have to expand the
analogy to have the man (now safe in the arms of Superman) look around
himself and say: "Hey, I want to go flying too! - by myself!" At which point Superman has to do things like let him go for a moment - just to show him that that is not a good idea!
I dunno, I just thought I would trot this analogy out and see whatcha thought.
I
think what we are discussing here is the paradigm of resistance and
whether there is a real equilibrium choice between staying put on the
cliff or jumping off. We would say that it is impossible to jump off the
cliff and resist the amount of speed of our fall enough to remain in
one piece. So that the question is can we by our will resist that speed
of the fall? Are we responsible to slow ourselves down? If every
movement of the body is under the control of the will, then every
movement is in our power to be responsible to have the power over our
movements? My point is that we do not have control over every movement
of our bodies by resistance through willing.And if we thought that we
were responsible in this way then falling would be just as responsible
as jumping off. How foolish would it be for us to conclude that the man
was responsible since he could not decrease the speed enough to remain
in one piece? And yet we measure the decision to jump by that same
standard. If he is not responsible in the fall to have control over his
own body by resistance then he is not responsible in the self determination
through resistance to move his body to jump. Otherwise we would be
hypocritical in our assessment of our own power by this comparison. Read sinners in the hands of an Angry God, Adam has already jumped. Theres no question we bow down to Jesus.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 23, 2008, 12:35:42 PM
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I agree that our actions are shaped by
events and other actions in our lives, so in that regard we aren't
"free". God himself is the only thing that has a truly "Free" will by
every stretch of the term... So we agree that to have a
necessary cause prior to willing does not hinder true liberty. I am not
sure why God chose to create, but God is under necessity to act
according to His nature, and He is under necessity to respond to the
lesser ends for the ultimate end of His glory. But if we have a
cause of choice then we really dont agree that man is self determined in
any choice. Because if we take all of mans choices starting from his
birth to his death and we line all of them up, then the will cannot
cause the first choice since there was no choice prior to the first
choice. So that there is a cause for each choice in succession. The
cause is a desire, or since we premeditate we think before we sin, and i
mean each body movement toward sin. So that we desire the most pleasing
object by our mind being most pleased. Since a will as being
defined as self determined is two equal objects and then the will is in
an equal Librium between these objects so that this is the definition of
true freedom. This is no will at all, since there is not a choice one
way or the other.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 23, 2008, 12:10:51 PM
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I
argue Humanity has NO resistance to sin; any resistance is based not on
our strength but on His. But if we sin or not we still make the
choice...
Forgive me if i got this wrong. But are you saying
that something causes our choices, or that we choose ourselves between
the rite and wrong? I am not sure.
Everyone get your dive gear, it is about to get deep...  We
as humans make our own choices, nothing is driving that other than
us...However sin is so ingrained within us, it plauges our being so much
that we desire it above all else. Sin has power over us but doesn't
make our decisions for us. Sin is a drug to humanity all the pride,
jealousy, arrogance, deciet, betrayl, we thrive on it wheter we admit
it or not. By sending Jesus though, God has set up an intervention and
rehab to get us clean and back to Him, back to where we should be...but
like rehab, we have to recognize we are addicted and that we need help.
We have to choose to accept the gift...
I am not trying
to be a smart ale c. I hope you dont take this like that. I tend to be a
bit one sided so dont be afraid to question my arguments. We as humans make our own choices, nothing is driving that other than us.
Ok i believe that there is a lot that goes on prior to our will being
involved. So that there is necessary cause to have a choice. If there is
only the will acting on its own, then the only cause of a choice would
be an action of the will prior to the new action. This is why choice is
from a necessity. Just like the origin of all things in creation.
Something does not come from nothing. There is a cause for every
existence. God was there and then the created things. In order for God
to create He had to exercise His power over the elements. So He had a
counsel of His will, and then the order of creation. He planned the
creation prior to creating. He was not under a necessity to create tho.
And i guess you could say that the action of planning prior to act of
the will in an internal sense.
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6332
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 23, 2008, 11:41:49 AM
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I argue Humanity has NO resistance to sin;
any resistance is based not on our strength but on His. But if we sin
or not we still make the choice... Forgive me if i got this
wrong. But are you saying that something causes our choices, or that we
choose ourselves between the rite and wrong? I am not sure. And if we
have a system where the reward is based on resistance , then there is
really no real connection between the good and the reward. Since the
good is the amount of resistance instead of the nature of the choice.
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 23, 2008, 10:58:10 AM
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Ahh, I see what you are saying. I have to teach a class right now, but will come back to this in an hour or so....
Ok , i hope we can continue to discuss this .
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6335
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 23, 2008, 10:48:14 AM
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I
am not suggesting that anyone go jumping off buildings or sitting in
fire, but I am suggesting that faith can lead to amazing things...
and I think the short answer is no, but Im not quite sure what you are referring to when you say resistance...
These
words have a different intended use than we naturally use them in the
resistance way. "must, cannot, unable, necessary, impossible,
unavoidable". The biblical usage is not from our natural way of thinking
about these words. Most of the time we think that we are excused by the
amount of the lack of resistance we have toward sin. And since we think
that we can resist sin by our amount of resistance to it by our willing
then the natural view is to make excuses by using these words. Do you
understand what i am saying?
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6336
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 23, 2008, 10:30:35 AM
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It
is a slippery slope P-man, and one I've been sliding on for a while.
But this is most likely going to be an issue which we agree to disagree.
By
Free Will in the truest sense is exactly that. It is what separates
man from the angels and beasts... free will is ingrained in our souls,
it is what makes us human...
Perhaps I get hung up on the "double
predestination" aspect, but like you said it is one or the other. So
if one believes that God ultimately has our lives planned out before us,
then you are also saying God causes us to sin and causes us to reject
Him, which seems incompatible to me...
So free will is exactly
that, God gives us reign over this world, we have the power to choose or
reject Him, we make the decisions in our daily life, and ultimately
must answer for those decisions. Not saying this isn't possible, but
based on my experience I don't think God would force someones hand, then
blame them for that...
MBG, to quote the addidas commercial
"impossible is nothing"...obviously we are limited by physical and
natural laws(or are we?) but Christ said:
John 14:12
I tell you
the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.
He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the
Father.
and the oft quoted verse in Phillipians4
"I can do all things through Christ which stregthens me"
So for the Christian at least, perhaps we do not have that line between possible and impossible....
How
much resistance do you have that can keep you from dieing if you jump
off a building with Jesus? What i am saying here is Do we measure
responsibility by the greater the sin the more resistance is required
and the greater reward is the measure?
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6337
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Forums / Theology Forum / Re: Free Will?
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on: May 23, 2008, 09:40:10 AM
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Impossibility is not within our ability to
exercise our power over the opposite choice. But then there is a line at
what is impossible and what is possible. So that if there is no
responsible blame at not accomplishing the impossible, then how do we
measure where the line is drawn from what is possible? So that there
would be levels of a persons responsibility the closer one gets to the
line of impossibility. Is this really the paradigm of responsibility?
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Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me
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on: May 22, 2008, 04:11:37 PM
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Tom I love it when You write you....
That was great and the best thing about it its true too good to be true but truth none the less.
((((((((((((WORC)))))))))))))))
Your the man of the hour my friend for life and in heaven.
((((((((((((((((((((WORC))))))))))))))))) Well, ive been doing
the meditation for a long time. And it is very simple here. We have the
finished work of Christ. And yet we suffer so much not only on a
personal level but with those around us. And we must always be having a
defense that when we say that Jesus is all we need then we must call on
His name to prove it. So that the word is like a sledge hammer. Now we
know of this by the practical method of picking up a sledge hammer to
tear down a wall by the experience of demolition. Now the hammer is the
word of God. And most men do not accept that Jesus is has all the power,
but we must use the word as an offensive weapon when we are under great
trials. We need not be afraid since we are in a battle and we have the
absolute power of Christ as our defense. Our confidence is not in
ourselves but in the word of God as we stand and fight. So it
really is an offensive battle. We pick up the sledge hammer and we begin
to pound the wall. We do not waste a hit in striking the wall down.
That is how some of the most profound battles are won. God puts us in a
situation so that He can test our faith. We must not stand on our own
power. We look to ourselves and we become afraid. Even when we have past
experience that the wall will come down. Because we naturally want to
trust in our own power. Our new confidence is on shaky ground. But we
remember that God has always been faithful. As we grow, the enemy begins
to become more fierce in trying to convince us that we must trust in
our own power. Our worst enemy is our self righteousness. But as we pick
up the sledge hammer, each time we make new holes in the wall, but it
is much harder each time we go to confronting walls. So we must go
farther in our prayers, we must cross to the other side, in our
assurance. And we must put all of our hearts and might in our calling
out to Him. As David worshiped with all of his strength. We may try to
muster up strength for all kinds of physical test, but when we have
prayed with all of our strength then we are exhausted from the battle.
Some times we must prove by the prayer that Jesus is all we need.
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6341
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Forums / Prayer Requests / Re: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me
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on: May 21, 2008, 07:21:17 PM
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God is really really good and forgiving. His
love is everlasting. Since we cannot inform God on our present state of
mind, then we are coming to a God that has given us a remedy in this
Psalm. But the remedy was already obtained by Jesus Christ and was put
into effect in time from before the foundation of the world. So that
here we are reminded how faithful our God is, in forgiving all of our
sins. Davids problem was that he had been caring this guilt around for a
long time, and he only needed to see that God had made a time for him
to come to this point were the guilt turned into an endless experience
of Gods faithful forgiveness. David was made aware of his sin by the
prophet, and it was then that he saw the awful state of his own heart.
But he had been going to a God that was unfailing in His love, so David
was led to a confession that was full of these longings for forgiveness
and the forgetting of the guilt of sin. Gods acceptance of us is in
psalm 51.
Every sin that we commit is put under the compassion
and mercy of God. We come knowing that a confession is only acceptable
as Gods love being the starting point and the end. We have no
forgiveness unless God has taken care of the sin. And since Christ has
done the work, then we dont come groveling in our own mournful
condition, but we come with full assurance that He has forgiven our sins
and has separated us from our sins as far as the east is from the west.
So that we come to the triune God who has worked out salvation and
deliverance from sin, the Father who sent the Son, who sent the Spirit
who assures us by the word, that we are fully accepted by grace. And so ,
we start in the Fathers unfailing love, we long to long for more of His
communication of His unfailing love by our falling and getting up.
So
that our confession is not just about the sin, but it is about the
fellowship we have with the Spirit. When He speaks that peace and
assurance to us, then we know we have a Father who is fully able to
forgive and love us beyond our understanding. That is why we fellowship
with the Spirit by our sin. We would never come to a Father who is ready
to condemn us and remind us of our sins. But we come as people who live
in repentance because we have grace by that sin. His grace is greater
than our sin, so that it is not a hope that He is greater, but it is
living in the reality that His grace is more powerful than the
condemning voice of the law.
We are illuminated in such a way
that we are under the constants of His love by being set free from our
sins to rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. That is when we
feel His presence in such a way that the world has no strong pull to our
inmost longings. Here is where maturity of a repentant saint comes
fully to fruitation. His kindness is extended to us as a Father who is
determining to change us by the compassion of one who cares about our
deepest longings while we come with our most dreadful sin.
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